PUSHBACK Talks

Fighting the Georgian Dream: The 180+ Day Protest

• WG Film • Season 8 • Episode 19

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Fredrik and Leilani dive into Georgia's unprecedented protest movement with Gota Chanturia, education policy specialist and member of the Movement for Social Democracy. For more than 180 days, Georgians have been on the streets opposing their government's dramatic shift away from European integration and toward Russian influence.

Gota explains how the parliamentary elections of October 2024 were manipulated and how the introduction of the so-called "Russian law" targeting civil society organizations sparked nationwide outrage. The conversation explores the deep connections between democratic backsliding and social inequality in a country where 700,000 people live in extreme poverty while oligarchic interests dominate politics.

This episode offers rare insight into a crucial resistance movement happening at the intersection of Europe and Russia, where citizens are fighting not just for democracy but for a vision of society that addresses profound social and economic challenges. Gota shares how international solidarity matters and what lessons Georgia's struggle holds for democratic movements worldwide facing similar authoritarian threats.

Also check out this episode mentioned during the talk:

Mass Protests and the Missing Revolution - a conversation with author Vincent Bevins

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Kirsten McRae:

For over 180 days, the people of Georgia have been engaged in the largest protest movement in the country's history, after rigged parliamentary elections in October 2024 and the government's alarming decision to suspend e negotiations until 2028 citizens took to the streets demanding change this small nation of 3.8 million, which has already lost 20% of its territory to Russian occupation, now finds itself at a critical crossroad between Western democracy and Russian influence. Today, Fredrik and Leilani speak with gote cenchuria, an education policy specialist and member of the movement for social democracy for over a decade, gote has worked in Georgia's civil society sector on education policy issues. He's authored numerous research papers and policy documents, including works on the history of school education, and has taught civic education in both public and private schools, currently pursuing his PhD on education marketization, gota brings a unique perspective on Georgia's struggle. In today's episode, Fredrik Leilani and Gotha discussed the far reaching impact of the law targeting civil society organizations, how poverty and social inequality fueled Georgia's crisis, and what international solidarity means for a nation caught between oligarchic control and democratic aspirations. This is Pushback Talks.

Fredrik Gertten:

I'm Fredrik Gertten, and I'm the filmmaker.

Leilani Farha:

And I'm Leilani Farha and I'm the advocate.

Fredrik Gertten:

And welcome back to Pushback Talks, Leilani, I can hear you are a little bit sick today. Something,

Leilani Farha:

something. Yeah, I think it's probably psychological. I'm sick of the world.

Fredrik Gertten:

But you know, these days, President Trump suddenly starts to talk about genocide. You notice? I have noticed, took the word genocide in his mouth, and he actually sent an airplane to South Africa to rescue 100 Afrikaners. From the genocide of the black majority. It's kind of fun upside down world. It was like an open invitation for people to flee. And 100 people out of 3 million Afrikaners said, we can go. We could call it entertaining, but maybe not. Okay, let's leave

Leilani Farha:

it. I call it upside down world. That's where we're living now, yeah,

Fredrik Gertten:

and at the same time, he's destroying people's life with ice and so on. Horrible things happening, horrible, horrible and destroying people's lives just to make a show out of it. Good TV. Horrible, horrible. I had a screening of push yesterday. Oh, where was that? In Lund, here, the neighbor city. It was nice, the tenant Union. It was really interesting. And I actually, for the first time in years, I saw the film again. Oh

Leilani Farha:

yes, and it's quite good. Stands the test of time. Yeah, I was in Toronto on the weekend, and last week, the film push was screening at the Toronto metropolitan university throughout the week, interestingly, by students who are studying interior design. So not architecture, but interior design. So it was, it was fascinating. I gave a speech, and it was very, very cool. And everyone loves push, and

Fredrik Gertten:

I love the main character also, so it's a it's a good combination. Today we are diving into an area where we haven't been for a while, and I'm really, really happy for this, because I've been following for years the development of democracy and the resistance in the small country, Georgia, in the outskirts of Europe. And it's a small country, 3.8 million people, and they have been on the streets for now almost 170 days, biggest protest in the history of this country, and of course, we have a guest, so I'm just happy to say, Welcome to Pushback. Talk to a gota santuria, so nice to have you here.

Gota Chanturia:

Thank you very much. Thank you for the invitation. It's been an honor for me to talk to you, and much appreciated you know for covering our story and the developments in Georgia.

Fredrik Gertten:

So you George gota, you are in the midst of this protest. There are out on the streets every day. Can you give us a short recap for the people who don't know everything about Georgia?

Gota Chanturia:

Yeah, yeah, it's been actually crazy, you know, around the world and in Georgia as well. And you could start this story back from the 90s when Georgia gained independence. You can switch to 2003 when the first, you know, Rose Revolution happened in Georgia. Georgia, or you can start in 2012 when in the first time in Georgia we've had change in the government through elections, right? But now what we are seeing is that, I mean, never before, what happened in Georgia is the totally change in the course of the country's direction, right? We are seeing that the country is moving from the west to the east and to Russia, right? Mostly it started with the policies that the government. The government is called the Georgian dream actually. So the GD government, the Georgian dream government, when the first time they've introduced the so called Russian law. We call it the Russian law. It's also called the foreign agents law, which basically says that any aid coming from abroad, coming internationally, or anyone who is receiving that aid, basically non governmental organizations, CSOs, independent media filmmakers, basically anyone would be called an agent of

Fredrik Gertten:

I felt that got that because I was about to be invited to show push in Georgia, and this foreign agent law killed the film festival, the documentary Film Festival, so it has a deep impact on people who are doing stuff that is connecting Georgia to the world. So it's and

Leilani Farha:

it's a typical move by authoritarian governments. I saw it, of course, in Egypt and of course, in India. That's one of the first moves they make. It's to cut the population off from the world. That's really what the intention is, as as you have both said,

Fredrik Gertten:

and it's done in Nicaragua and in Venezuela and, of course, in Russia itself and so on. It's they don't like international solidarity.

Gota Chanturia:

Yeah, exactly. But we're seeing that also in in Slovakia, in Serbia, in other places, it's like one in the same scenario, you know, like, and there's been like, huge propaganda machine working on it, that where they portray you as a foreign agent, a traitor, doing some external sort of work. Before, they were calling it the global war party, as you are a member of the global war party. Now they're calling it deep state, which is also used abroad as well, right? So you're like working with the with this deep state, and this deep state is controlling use. I mean, crazy, crazy, absolutely crazy stuff before that, before the parliamentary elections, and we've been fighting it. We've been trying to resist it very much, but they've still introduced this law. But everyone hopes that the parliamentary elections are coming and we'll be able to change the Georgian Dream, which is in power for 13 years already, since 2012 so I mean, people are sick of the Georgian dream because of the repressive policies, because of all the craziness that they are doing,

Fredrik Gertten:

Georgian nightmare, yeah, they're also called Georgian

Gota Chanturia:

nightmare, yeah, and not just by us, but internationally. So the parliamentary elections were held on October 26 everyone agrees that it was a rigged elections. Nobody actually, internationally as well, recognized these elections as as valid. Everyone you know agrees that it was basically rigged. And after that, on the second day, already after the elections, people came on the streets. People started demonstrating, but interestingly enough, it was led by political parties, and these protests were not widespread. A lot of people didn't came to the streets, and it didn't have much support, because, like, people were not just scared, but they didn't know what to do. But after that, in November, the Prime Minister of the Georgian dream, the de facto Prime Minister, announced that they're stopping negotiations with EU until 2028 and after that, that was the final move. And the next day, on that day as well, and the next day, people started coming to the streets. And since then, we are on the streets, and it's like non stop for 170

Fredrik Gertten:

days. And I follow the images coming out. It's a lot of people. And what I understand not only in the capital Tbilisi, it's also out in the region. So it's, a very deeply rooted uprising.

Gota Chanturia:

Yeah, absolutely. And what we are seeing actually is that in different regions, different cities, five or six biggest cities, non stop, every day. But also what we are seeing is that like before the discussion was that Europe or. Russia, and you like, you're pro European or pro Russian. It was, like, very binary, you know, like, but now it, you know, like, social dimension came into context. And what we are trying, me and my friends who've established this movement, movement for social democracy, we're trying to engage different people. And if you don't, you know, like to start talking about the social issues Georgia, as you mentioned, Fredrik, has around 3.8 million people living in Georgia, but about 1 million are living abroad as immigrants, and 700,000 people are receiving social aid. Basically, 700,000 people are very poor, you know, like, so poverty is a huge, huge thing in Georgia, and that's why the government is successful in using propaganda. So if you're not, you basically start talking about social issues. The protest would not be as good as it is now, I think

Fredrik Gertten:

sometimes these protests are described as Pro Western when I did this film breaking social. I mean, this reminds me almost about the uprising in Chile in some ways. So I think it's very much an uprising against corruption and Kleptocracy, and then the biggest funder, or the man behind the Georgian dream. The nightmare is this oligarch called bitzyna, Ivan schwilli, and he is like the richest person, one of the richest person in the world also. I mean, we have now the oligarchs running the US. We have the oligarchs running in Russia, and you have an oligarch running your country. This is like a global pattern with the super rich trying to control and I remember when they passed that legislation, the Russian law, they also passed an other law that was like a tax exemption. So if you take money back to Georgia, you can get it without tax. So basically, it was also a money move they made at the same time. Yeah,

Gota Chanturia:

true. True, absolutely. So basically, you know, like you have this big oligarch, bidina ivanishuli, who runs the Georgian dream and the country as a whole. And then you have like, smaller oligarchs who are running, you know, like different cities or regions, or the police, etc, etc, right? So it's like this structure that you have, that this big oligarch controlling the country, and then you have like smaller oligarchs, you know, running the state. Does

Fredrik Gertten:

this also mean that that Putin, because Putin is operating through his oligarchs, that he also has some kind of control of the Georgian dream. Absolutely,

Gota Chanturia:

absolutely. And you see the connections, you know, like this, anti corruption organizations have already determined the links between Putin and between the Georgian dream. The high ranking officials of the Georgian dream now have been to Russia, you know, like going back and forth to Russia even on Ninth of may now, where, you know, like all sorts of people, have been there, the President of Serbia and the president of Slovakia as well. So high ranking members of the Georgian dream have been to Russia as well, and they've been communicating with them. And we're seeing these patterns where the so called gongos, or the governmental NGOs, are also, you know, like communicating with them, and they're talking about neutral Georgia, right? You shouldn't be pro Western or, like, pro Russia. You should be neutral, you know. But like, for all of us in Georgia, neutral Georgia means that, you know, like, whatever it means. It means that you're like pro Russia, and basically you are a puppet of Russia, and you're basically trying to realive Soviet, Soviet, Georgia, Leilani.

Fredrik Gertten:

I don't know if you've noticed that Georgia is like, in many ways, service and like this place for neoliberal experiments. It's a golden passport country. It's a country where, if you're super rich and you don't want to hide your money, you can go to Georgia. It's been one of these places. It's also that kind of the corrupt money connection. And when we showed push in Georgia, we did it during the pandemic, I heard a lot about the housing market, and it's the same pattern as we see all over the world. So this money is also destroying people's lives in the homes. Leilani,

Leilani Farha:

I remember several years ago, I was working with a cohort of people on different issues, social issues, and one woman was from Eastern Europe, and she was looking into indebtedness of households, and I remember her saying that Georgians are incredibly indebted as a people, and which is, I mean, it goes hand in hand with oligarchs, Kleptocracy, right, the extractive industries and the. Impact on people who end up being severely indebted and gota, I don't know, I don't have any statistics, or I just remember her saying that, and I assume this is the case.

Gota Chanturia:

Yes, yes, absolutely. It is a huge, huge issue in Georgia. And also, I'm not sure if you remember, but we did, they have a screening of Bucha in Georgia as well, several times, actually. And like, when people saw it, it was like they saw that it was about them, you know, like, bank loans and debts are a big thing. And as I've said, like 700,000 people are receiving social aid, which means that they're, like, almost below poverty line. But then there's, you know, like, we also call it the 99% of Georgian who are living, you know, like, very poorly as well. And there's so and you have this 1% who is the banks as well, you know. So, I mean, before, like, in this protest, why we're saying that this the previous protests in Georgia haven't been successful, as I've said, because they were not talking about this social dimension. You know, basically, they were talking about the West and Europe also being, you know, I don't know, like a destination place with this, as you've mentioned, Fredrik, with this, all sorts of experiments that have been done in Georgia. Yeah, in

Fredrik Gertten:

neoliberal Europe, it might not be the solution. Exactly. Exactly It has to be a social Europe, in a democratic Europe, I mean, in some way, we're in the same battle, even if your front line is rougher than ours. Of course, you're in the midst of it because we there is a horrible war going on also in Ukraine, which is not so far from you, not so far from us. We are kind of in between. And Georgia has lost 20% of its territory to Russia. They already occupied Georgia in 2008 so there are two regions cut off from your country, absolutely.

Gota Chanturia:

And it's, it's a very difficult issue for us. Obviously, we've seen what Russia can do, basically, and we've been talking about since 2008 and even before that. But all this stuff that we will be talking about started exactly as soon as the war in Ukraine started. And also, interestingly enough, what the Georgian dream is using is that this war or peace propaganda, what their slogan was before the elections, if you won't choose us, if you won't elect us, you would have the same stuff that is happening in in Ukraine, even the banners that they've had in the streets, it was like the war torn Ukraine, you know, bomb Ukraine. You know, like people on the streets and ruined Ukraine and then peaceful Georgia. So they've been, you know, showing this contrast to the people. And they've been saying that if you want to elect us, you would have the same stuff happening to you. And it was so immoral, you know, like it was so horrible, basically, that they were not standing in solidarity to Ukrainian people, but saying that Ukraine made a mistake, and it's their fault, and Zelensky is like, a horrible sort of person, etc, etc. So yeah, we feel before Ukraine, and we're standing in solidarity Ukraine, and we are also, you know, like trying to help them as much as we can.

Fredrik Gertten:

Yeah, and I understand that the Georgian dream has been trying to play their international cards in some ways, but they also make some great mistakes. They went to to Iran, and they suddenly are on stage together with somebody shouts down with the US so. And then they went to Moscow to be on the victory parade. And then, now it seems like the UK and maybe even the US is starting to sanctioning some of these people. Can you tell us more about this?

Gota Chanturia:

Yeah, I mean, never before, like, we've had so much sanctions on high level officials the US and the Great Britain, they've already sanctioned dozens of people you know, like, whether it would be prosecutors, judges, you know, MPs, all sorts of people, the propagandists, also from the media side. It has already started, but now we're seeing the new dimension of it. There's no coming back from it, because of all sorts of propaganda still like and because of the poverty and all sorts of social issues that are happening in Georgia, people are still very confused. Because, like, even if you look at the stuff that is happening in us, people are confused, like all this craziness is happening there. So I mean, why should we aspire to be partners of the US? Or even some people are talking about less support from Europe to Ukraine. Etc, you know, but sanctions, yeah, it's a big thing again, and people are are sanctioned on a daily basis from us, from Europe, Estonia and other countries, Baltic countries, you know, establish sanctions on hundreds and hundreds of people. Leilani, yeah, I

Leilani Farha:

sometimes wonder about the sanctioning of individuals versus States taking more aggressive stances against the state itself. We saw with Israel that there were sanctions against individual settlers who were up to no good. Most settlers are up to no good, and it's had very little impact. And I wonder if the same is true in Georgia. And if there isn't some other state to state mechanisms that should be used when a state is so intransigent and harming its people, yeah,

Gota Chanturia:

I mean, so far it's been, you know, individual targeted sort of sanctions. And I think it's good because, like people were talking about, you know, this visa free regime that we have with EU, basically canceling that. And obviously we know the bureaucracy in Europe, etc, and how much it can take, the timing, et cetera, it's being discussed. And it's also one of the things that EU can do, you know, basically cancel the visa free regime. And, yeah, definitely I'm against it. I think that, you know, these targeted sort of sanctions are a better approach, rather than, you know, like sanctioning the whole state and sanctioning the people, right? Because, like, leads

Leilani Farha:

to isolation, presumably, if you sanction the whole state, then you isolate the people that you're actually maybe trying to help

Gota Chanturia:

exactly isolation and also anger from the people you know, like if you sanction them, because they are the ones who are you know, struggling the policies that the Georgian dream initiated, Russian law and everything it targets civil society now, civil society cannot receive any sort of support, And unless EU comes up with different approaches of supporting them, then we're in much trouble. So I mean, the people are also trying to advocate for direct support from EU, from international partners. It's

Fredrik Gertten:

interesting that we have this billionaire bizina Ivan, she really because it reminds me so much about the Russian oligarchs that they all had their base in the UK, you know, in London, you know, it's like the capital of stolen money, and they were a part of that society, and they were supporting football clubs and, you know, art museums, you know, they were buying into that society. And also, of course, in other European countries and in the US also. And then, of course, after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, there was, like sanctions coming up, but it was kind of late. But do you think the EU should then go for his money if he has funds outside of Georgia? Yeah,

Gota Chanturia:

true. And also, like, he has a French citizenship, basically, he was living in France before, yeah. I mean, he has, you know, like, connections everywhere, basically, in the world, but now, yeah, definitely, you see that every pattern that they're using is absolutely Russian. Like, if you've seen, like, couple days ago at the meeting of Macron with the, you know, like other prime ministers and the propaganda trying to portray to they've had this issue like

Fredrik Gertten:

they remember it sniffing cocaine Exactly, exactly,

Gota Chanturia:

and they've, they've showed it in every Georgian channel, which is a Basically propaganda channels, and showed it like numerous times, and showing it basically as the propaganda. Wanted to show them together

Fredrik Gertten:

with Alex Jones, the amazing, exact fact checker. Alex Jones, remember the Infowars guys a total immoral villain? Yeah, that's a good way to understand the level of information coming out in Georgia right now. Yeah. Leilani, how do you see this?

Leilani Farha:

I mean, there's so much interesting aspects to this, starting where we started with the name the Georgian dream. I mean, the propaganda begins with the name of the political party. It's actually so remarkable and so clever. It's deeply disturbing, and it makes me think of a book and an author that we interviewed on Pushback Talks, Fredrik. You'll remember Vincent Bevins. So gota. Vincent Bevins is someone who has studied social movements around the world. And I really encourage you and your others who are rising up to read his book if you haven't, because he tells the tale of which uprisings are successful and which are not, and the need to have a very strong. Wrong singular message to move forward and to win becomes very clear in his book, and that the right wing parties and movements are so successful at organizing around one or three propaganda messages. And anyway, I think of it because as I understand it, which is the beautiful thing happening in Georgia is the movement, the people coming to the streets is from every dimension. It's not just one left wing party rallying people. It's so many different people, and if you can come together, one of the things I've noticed is this linking of democracy with social rights, which is not as common as one would think. We have seen it in Latin America. We saw it in the Arab Spring, to no avail, of course. But anyway, maybe you can tell us, like, Are there demands that the movements are making? Let

Fredrik Gertten:

me just come in and tell our listeners that there is an episode of our podcast with Vincent Bevins. Go go out and look for it and listen to it, because it's really interesting. Come on. Gert, yeah.

Gota Chanturia:

Thank you very much. Interestingly enough, couple of days ago, a friend of mine suggesting reading his book if you burn, or if we burn, or something like that. So definitely, definitely. Thank you very much for the suggestion. Now I'm sure, because before that, I was like, Okay, should I listen to him or not? But now I'm sure that. But yeah, definitely. We have our demands. One of the demands is to release political prisoners. And we have more than 50 political prisoners, which is an unprecedented number since the protest started, the police was, like, extremely brutal. Never before the police was so much brutal. They've, like, used force on almost, like, more than 500 people, so beaten that, I mean, these people, like, we couldn't even recognize their faces. Some of them almost died, you know, like we've seen, you know, like incidents a couple of days ago, for instance, like two people were killed in jails, basically, you know, like, because of the beating, et cetera, et cetera, one of the demands is to release these political prisoners. And like before, the Georgian people could not come together because of the ideology, because of all sorts of issues. But one of the things that we came together around, one issue is these political prisoners, they should be released. And these are, like, basically, mostly youth, 1819, years old, totally blameless. I mean, they didn't do anything, absolutely anything. Another demand is the new elections. The we've had rigged elections now we should have the real sort of elections with, obviously, the new legislation, etc, etc. Other demands, obviously, are to cancel all these crazy policies, whether it would be the Russian law, anti LGBT law, all sorts of laws that they've introduced. But what you said about the one sort of like messaging that we should have, or one message or one the wording that we should use, it's that like one of the interesting stuff that we did is that every day we are marching. We are gathering in front of the public broadcaster, which is a propaganda sort of machine that the media station that the state is using. We are gathering in front of the public broadcaster, and there we are marching towards the Parliament, which is like half an hour or 40 minutes away from the media station. And when we march, we are using these slogans and we are using these demands, and we are basically screaming this stuff and talking about, I don't know, all sorts of like social issues, social aspects, freeing of these political prisoners. And it became a huge thing, even internationally as well, you know, like, because now after like, 170 day, it became like a symbol of protest. People are following us everywhere. It became like a rhyme, you know, like our marches and our rhythmic you know,

Fredrik Gertten:

I would say to our listeners, try to follow what is happening. There are some different accounts, and maybe you can give us some more account to put up on our page when we are done. But I follow something called Georgia protests on blue sky, for example, so you can at least see the daily updates of people being on the streets. Because I think that's for me, it's inspirational because you're fighting the same struggle as people are doing in the US right now, or doing in many other countries. It's a struggle against Kleptocracy,

Leilani Farha:

and it's so interesting because Georgia is such a small place, it's like a micro of the macro that's happening with. Worldwide now really, and I agree, Fredrik, we should all be following Georgia. And I, I remember Vincent Bevins now, he said that it's the highly organized groups that win, not just with the solid messaging, the highly organized groups that win, and you're already organizing so well. So the question is, well, I again urge you to read Vincent Bevins. He knows better than I do. I only read the book. He wrote it and researched it so and lived it because he lived in Brazil for many, many years and followed the movements successful and not successful in Brazil. So, but yes, I agree with you, Fredrik, the way in which Georgia is such a example of everything happening in the US. But what? Again, I'm going to reiterate, I love this bringing together of the social with the demands of democracy, because in the States, the Pushback has mostly been around civil and political rights, and not so much around social rights. You're starting to see some movement. People are starting to say, Wait, we're sending millions and billions over there, and we don't have anything here. But it's not a movement around the social

Fredrik Gertten:

I think also international solidarity is important. I maybe also you. Leilani, will like to send out a message to our listeners that that solidarity is important, and solidarity also means, you know, keep your eyes on what is happening on Georgia, and talk to your elected people in in your parliament, that they also need to have a look on what's going on, because these people, the oligarchs, and their people, are also a part of the world, so they don't, they don't really like when people talk about the resistance. So how got Can you see where is this going? Oh,

Gota Chanturia:

yeah, I think we are in the final phase maybe, of this, you know, like, craziness that is taking place in our country. Because, like, we are seeing this radical sort of like shift from the west to basically Russia. Now they're enacting new laws and new policies and new amendments against the West. Never before we've seen that against against the US as well, because US itself is enacting a new act, megabari act. It's called in English. It is like friendship Act, which is basically saying that, unless, you know, like Georgia basically shifts again to the west, and unless it brings back the democratic sort of policies, etc. Then, you know, like the sanctions would continue and there would be no, you know, like cooperation with the US. I think that we are in the sort of, like final phases. We're seeing also the division within the Georgian dream, because, like, they themselves are running the country with this, you know, like, divide and rule. You know, like they're dividing people, they're defragmenting people. But again, as Leilani said, you know, like, as it is in the book, we're trying to, you know, like, stay as highly organized as possible. They could not divide us. And we're trying to also be focused. Yeah, the independence is of Georgia is coming soon. It's on 26th of May, and we're trying to make it as big as possible. That might be the turning point, in a way. So we'll see. We'll see. I'm not sure if it's stopped soon, but hopefully with the end of the war in Ukraine, the situation in Georgia would change. Gota, it's

Fredrik Gertten:

been amazing to have you on Pushback Talks and a big thank you to you and your friends who takes to the streets every day in your country, because we need you, because we're in the same struggle against kleptocracy and fascism, no matter if it has a Russian flag or an American flag or whatever flag they are running up there. So thank you very much, and let's keep in contact. We want to follow what's happening in Georgia.

Gota Chanturia:

Thank you very much. It's been an honor, and we need you more.

Leilani Farha:

You have our support, and we will, we will, through our podcast, hopefully get you global support. Thank

Gota Chanturia:

you so much.

Fredrik Gertten:

Thank you, Leilani, take care of your day, and hope you feel better soon, because we need you a lot.

Leilani Farha:

Well, I feel inspired. I feel inspired by the Georgians and so who am I to lay down my head? No, I'll keep going.

Fredrik Gertten:

That's good through here. So thank you very much. And take care. Leilani, take care. Gota, thank

Leilani Farha:

you. Thanks. Gota, thanks. Fredrik.

Kirsten McRae:

Pushback Talks is produced by WG film. To support the podcast, become a patron by going to patreon.com/pushbacktalks, follow us on social media at make underscore the shift and push underscore the film, or check out our websites. Maketheshift.org, pushthefilm.com, or breakingsocialfilm.com