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Court Of Lore
Daredevil: Born Again After Show - Ep. 1 & 2 - (Ep. 151)
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Welcome to The Blind Spot, the official after-show for Daredevil: Born Again! Host Frank Maguire, alongside co-hosts Rich Herrera and Bradley Butin, dives into the pulse-pounding premiere episodes of Marvel’s latest series, and the heat’s on from the jump. Frank’s riled up over a bold twist he slams as “dirty pool” on the fans, Rich fires back that it’s a fresh start worth taking, and Bradley’s caught between his comic love and first reactions. They heap praise on standout performances and slick action, though Frank’s got gripes about pacing and some puzzling calls.
The trio hints at shocking turns, clever nods to Daredevil’s past, and big questions about where this dark reboot’s headed. Does it honor the faithful or stumble under the mouse’s watch? Expect fiery takes, wild guesses, and Frank’s shaky promise to ease up next time. The Blind Spot drops every Wednesday—join us after Episode 3 airs Tuesday at 9!
Hosts: Frank Maguire, Rich Herrera, Bradley Butin
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Coming up on this episode of Meanwhile, it's our Daredevil Born Again after show. Did Boggy's death actually matter, or is it just a flat speed bump? How long will it be before Mare Fisk breaks bad again? How big a role is White Tiger gonna play? Can Born Again keep the blood flowing under Disney's watch? We'll answer these questions and so much more on this episode of Meanwhile back on the podcast. Hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Meanwhile Back on the Podcast. I am your host, Frank McGuire, and this is the spline uh I can't believe I fucked that up already. This is the Blind Spot, the official after show for Daredevil Born Again. And uh I'm here with my two co-hosts. Uh we got Rich and we got Brad. Uh what's up, fellas? How are you?
SPEAKER_03Doing good, doing good. Absolutely fantastic.
SPEAKER_02You excited to talk a little daredevil or what?
SPEAKER_01Very excited. You'll have to wait and see.
SPEAKER_02All right. Well, let's uh let's not waste any time. Let's jump into this. Let's talk some let's talk first impressions. Um Wow, is all I have to say. Um they definitely caught me off guard. Um, I was not expecting that in the first 15 minutes of the episode where they basically killed Foggy Nelson and had like this crazy fight sequence with Bullseye with uh uh with with uh Dex. Um honestly I wasn't that thrilled with the decision to kill Foggy this quickly into the show. I really thought that it was poorly thought out. And the only reason I think that is because there's no there's no lead up to it. There's no pretext for it. There's no there's no emotional investment beforehand before you kill off a core Daredevil character, like a central legacy daredevil character. And it just felt cheap and it felt like they did it for shock value. However, I do have a couple of other theories. Um we can get into that, but I feel like I'm still with the show, like you know, I still want to see what happens, but this is just like I felt like somebody stuck a finger in my eye. You know, like that's how I felt about this. It's just it's just a poorly it's a poorly thought out decision. Like I just don't understand why they couldn't wait until episode three or episode four and kill them off then. Like, why did it have to be this episode? It doesn't didn't really make a lot of sense to me. Um the things that were the things I were impressed with were the performances. I thought the performances were amazing. That scene on The Roof of Josie's where Matt is like just broken to pieces and Dex is like smiling, bleeding, and you know, cut up and bruised and broken, and that was pretty awesome. Um Vincent D'Anofrio killed it as Fisk. And there's a lot of great new faces in this cast, but I got a lot to say about the quality the quantity of people we had to meet in this first episode. Like just that just that scene in Josie's, I felt overwhelmed. I'm like, we wait, weren't we weren't we just at the table with Karen and Matt, and they were having a conversation, and now we're like since when in Daredevil do we follow around bit characters to to eavesdrop on their conversations? That doesn't really that's not really a thing. That's not really a Daredevil thing. That's not even like that wasn't even in the Netflix series. So yeah, I've got a lot to say. Anyways, let's let's let's start hearing from some other people and we'll and you know we'll go from there. Rich, what what was your first impressions?
SPEAKER_04I I mean I thought it was great for a lot of the same reasons you were saying. Um it was kind of funny though. I thought when I watched the the first two episodes back to back like that, I was like, oh, they blew the budget on that first episode. Because the second episode was a lot of lot of talking, which was great. Uh, but that first episode was just just fantastic. I I'm we'll get probably get into it a little bit later, but I I disagree with you with the foggy thing. Uh we'll we'll get into that. Um at first I was mad, uh, but then but then I thought this was this was needed. It's called Born Again for a reason. Um, and with with being with birth, pain comes. So uh I we'll talk more about that, I think, when we get down a little bit. But first impressions. Wilson Fisk, great, love seeing Vincent D'Nafrio is just an amazing actor, no matter what he plays. It's so funny watching him as Wilson Fisk and then thinking like, wait, this is the same actor that was in Men in Black that played the the guy with the wearing the Edgar suit. I was like, just an amazing actor, and the same actor that was in law and order criminal intent, just so good in anything that he does. So I thought that was really neat. Um the the diner scene where they were talking, uh kind of like at a standoff, like stay in your lane, I thought was a great piece of dialogue. Uh for for the Josie's bar scene at the beginning, I was kind of like you like who are these randos that we're we're listening to? Uh, but it pays off like real quick. Uh so I I was okay with that. I got everything that I wanted in in what I wanted to have Daredevil to have. We had the winner, which I mean technically it wasn't a wonder, but it had some pretty neat camera tricks and some editing tricks, but for for the most part, it was a four-minute one one take fight scene. We got a law drama developing. So we're gonna see Matt Murdoch in the in the law in the uh courtroom, uh fighting with his wits as well as his fists. Uh so I'm looking forward to that to see how that plays out. Um, yeah, I I thought first impressions coming out of the gate strong, looking forward to episode three. I was when episode two was two was done, I was like, I want to watch three right now. Uh, but it's gotta wait a week.
SPEAKER_02All right, Brad, first thoughts.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so uh I mean, and like you guys, I the decision to kill off Foggy like right away. Damn, damn, I was not ready for that. I thought that we were gonna have the you know, him and Karen and and Matt for longer, or if it was gonna be like flashbacks or whatever, but then they killed him off. I was in like Frank said, I was in shock. I it was shock value 100% for me. Um, but it kept me, and not that there was anything else going on, um, it felt it felt good. It didn't it it's not the level of the Netflix shows by far. I think the Netflix shows the Netflix version is still better, but I think that this is as good as we could get right now. Um and when you see Vincent D'Anfro and Charlie Cox sharing the screen together, it just makes you feel good. You're like, Man, I want Spider-Man to swing in here, I want Daredevil. You know what? Hey, let's get a Nova in here. I don't care. I want more, I want more. But they they went through everything, it didn't feel forced, it felt like these characters um have been around. I would have liked to see a little bit more, like maybe a blip sentence or something like that, because it is MCU now. Um but man, they started with the death of Foggy, spoiler alert, guys, and they ended with that in they ended episode two with Matt embracing what he's what we knew was gonna come. And uh the that fight scene in that apartment was freaking awesome. So I'm not mad. I'm here for the ride. I watched it, I watched them both twice, and I am not I I I can't even logically like I couldn't even critically think about these things. I was so in tune with them, and even after two watches, I'm like, was I I I can't find anything to really pick apart. So I'm happy with it right now. I can't wait to to dig in and maybe maybe uh change my mind a little.
SPEAKER_04Marvel's back, baby. Just kidding. I wouldn't go that far.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well, let's let's talk a little bit more about the positives and the negatives, and then I really want to deep dive into this idea that like the whole thing about killing Foggyoff, like it it just it it just doesn't track for me, like it just doesn't make any sense. Um and I say this as somebody who's a writer and a producer themselves. Like I kind of think that this was a business decision, if I'm being honest, and I'll go into a little bit more detail on that. But um, so for me, the big positives were the performances. I thought the performances were great. I thought the new suit looked great. Um, I really liked Heather Glenn. Uh, I thought the chemistry between her and Matt was awesome. You can cut that tension with a knife. That was pretty great. Um, they nailed bullseye. That guy was just offing people without a care in the world, just literally like, oh, you're just a me puppet. You know, here's uh here's a knife, here's uh a billiard ball, uh, here's whatever I can get my fucking hands on. You're dead. Like that was that was pure bullseye. That was great. Total, total psycho. Um, the one-er was good. It was very hyper-realistic, not a lot of comic book, not very cartoonish, I would say. Um, like I almost picture like a real fight like that happening at that pace and with that kind of with those kind of moves. Like there wasn't anything fancy about it. It was just brutal and mechanical, and like they were just throwing knives at each other and punching each other, and that was it. There wasn't any like you know, crazy spin kicks or like anything stylistic, it was just like pure brutality throughout the entire fight, right? I thought that was you know, it's accurate, but I also think that this is a comic book show, and they think that they have to kind of find the middle ground a little bit. So I felt a little bit led down um by some of that. Also, the ultra wide shot for that one er, clearly it's an open face set. Um too wide, if you ask me, far too wide on most of those shots. I think they should have been tired. They should have had a couple of close-ups. Um you know, with a guy with um, you know, the glide cam or whatever, like that or steady cam. That would have been really cool. Um, sure, you probably can't get too close to them, you know, for safety reasons or whatever, but I think they could have explored that a little bit more. Um and yeah, um, you know, I thought that that sequence was great, and then up on the rooftop was pretty crazy. The second episode was pretty good as far as the Fisk stuff. Um, I like um I like J I like the role that James Gandalf Gandalfini's son is playing. Uh, that little um, you know, that little tryhard in the mayor's office. I think he's gonna be, you know, a pretty critical character. Uh, but I feel like the characters just were piled in way too fast. It felt very CW, like it was a lot of CW chaos in this show. And I think, you know, with the old Daredevil show, I'm not really I'm not really uh used to having that many characters to keep track of at any one time. The scenes don't switch back and forth that fast. The editing isn't that quick. You know, they stay with the character, they let characters develop, they let, you know, they let moments sit, they let silences grow. They're not necessarily trying to drive the story along with every little decision that they make. Um they were happy and they're, you know, the pacing was actually great in that show, if I'm being honest. For this one, it just felt like yeah, it it had more of a mechanical, more of a manufactured sort of assembly line kind of feel to it. And I think that kind of took away from the quality a little bit. How do you guys feel about what I said about the cast? Did you guys feel like it was just a little too much? Rachel, start with you seeing Brad's distracted. Sorry.
SPEAKER_04Um it's all right. It it was a lot. I I will admit that first episode, like I was just like I was saying, when they were when they cut to Cherry and whoever he was talking to at the bar, I'm like, who who are these people and why are we spending so much time with them? But I figured, okay, they're important, so I need to pay attention. And then uh I forgot who else was the uh the DA that ended up being Matt's partner in the second episode. There was some time there. And so uh I I would say there were a lot of characters to keep track of. You it's funny you mentioned CW because I'm a I'm a I'm an aeroverse veteran. So I guess I'm kind of used to seeing that. So it didn't really hit me that that hard as um as I think it hit you. Um but I but I did at the bar. At the bar, I think it was a lot. There was a lot to keep up with in terms of conversations before the big fight scene. Um but I I you know I was able to keep him straight. And and Cherry is a great character. I mean, by the by the second episode, I'm I'm in. Um when he's Matt's investigator and he's and he's doing the legwork and all that. Uh great. Uh he he's he's gonna be a really great character to keep up with. Um yeah, uh I there was a lot, but I was cool, I was good with it, and uh, yeah, I liked it.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I didn't it didn't bother me at all. Um like I said, after you going into uh that that first part and you're in the diner and everything like that, and the I guess the thing that I will say is like I was like I I was thinking, do I should I know these people? But and then it was gone so quick, they're like, oh, well now it's a year later, so I guess I don't really know need to know all these people, you know, um for at least for right now. So um I didn't really have much of a problem. I I liked it. I like I said, like I said, we will see what we need to pick up from that scene later on, but it's a kind of a cop-out if you know if there was so much going on and we couldn't concentrate on what we needed to concentrate on.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, I'm kind of with you, I'm kind of with you, Brad, on that one. It's like, should I know this character? Like, especially with Cherry. I was like, was he in the Netflix series? Am I am I missing something? So there's some pause and Google moments uh for me when I was watching it.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So so you so you weren't really taking much back about it because you're a CW guy and a reverse guy, so it's not really that big a deal to you, but I think I think it's in direct contrast to who the character is, though. The character's always been a loner, always the group around him has always been very small, right? Always very small, and it just kind of felt like yeah, it was like too too young adult, too. Beverly Hills 90210, too Melrose place for me. It was just too many people, like it just didn't really like I don't know, I just couldn't square a lot of that. Um I also got this feeling in my gut that the production is off somehow. And it feels like they wanted that Netflix tier vibe, but they wanted to do it on a budget, and I can't figure out what's missing. But there's something critical missing from this show that it just isn't cover in the gap. And I forgot to ask you guys about what you thought about my comments as far as the wonder goes. Do you guys agree with anything I was saying about the wonder, or do you guys have any counters to what I was saying about the winner?
SPEAKER_04I I like the Warner. It it wasn't as pure of a wonder as the hallway fight scene in Netflix season one, uh Daredevil season one. There were some some computer edits, there were some clever camera tricks, people walking in front of the camera. Uh, you can see it, you can see an edit there. When they close the doors, there's edits there, somebody flying through the window. I mean, it's smoke grenade. Smoke grenades. Yeah, smoke grenades, and the just the smoke in general to to make it a little bit more forgiving on the editors, I guess. So it's a wonder in the terms that it was a long shot. There weren't any like cuts away. Um, but it wasn't as pure or or practical as the Netflix one that that is so famous now. Um, but I liked it. I mean, I was wanting a wonder and I got a wonder, and and I hope it's not the last one or uh that we see. Um, but yeah, I I mean I thought it was good. Uh clever use of of computer and editing tricks to to make it work.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I'm with you guys. Uh we got what we asked for, and and they had to do something. They were, you know, they had to do something, and I'm thinking like, okay, that it's happening in episode one because it's net fl or uh it's them saying, okay, this is the daredevil that you know. This is the dead, this isn't the She-Hulk Daredevil, this is the Netflix Daredevil, the one we love, all that kind of stuff. Here's your wonder. Uh, it's like Rich was saying, it's not what you got, both were saying, actually, it's not a real wonder, but it's a one and a half, we'll call it that.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Interesting that you said it's not the She-Hulk Daredevil that we got. It's interesting that you said that. Well, I agree with you. I feel like I feel like what they're trying to do is more on the surface than say beneath the surface, if that makes any sense. Like it just feels cosmetic to prevent it being the daredevil that we got in She-Hulk. I just didn't really feel the substance there, if that makes any sense. Um yeah, I don't know, man. Um what about Fisk? What was your guys' impression of of D'Nafrio and Fisk and and um I have some thoughts on that too, because like it's another it's another Donald Trump analog, right? Very much so. And Matt eavesdropping on the entire city as they weigh the the political climate in New York in the wake of and in the lead up to Fisk getting elected. It was almost like, hey, we're gonna tap into the American consciousness and we're going to amplify it for everybody. That's what it kind of felt like. But again, this is another Trump analog, and I think doing this again so soon after after Harrison Ford did it in Brave New World just kind of felt kind of corny. Like it didn't really land for me. It just felt sort of forced. Did you guys pick up on that? Did you guys make that connection? How how'd you feel about that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely did. Um, especially because it was on at the same time as the State of the Union was on as well.
SPEAKER_02I mean, so that's not an accident, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely was not was no accident. Um, but I I can take more of a Wilson Fisk being this big political figure, you know, figurehead, i.e. Donald Trump, because he's been in the comic so many times, you know. He's always been, there's always been like mayor, mayor, whatever fisk. And I mean, and when you think about it, yeah, I know what you're trying to say, but really Republican being uh the being a mayor of New York, yeah, that's just hilarious. That turned the show into a comedy, you know. Um, so like whatever, man. We know you don't like it. We know what we know where you stand, just don't stand there very long. And I think it was fine. I mean, I was just like, whatever. Okay, you made your point, go on. I know you're gonna try to, you're gonna keep on making it, but whatever.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean, I thought I I mean, obviously the the the Trump comparisons were were were there. I mean, they did film it before the election, so to be fair, uh, they filmed it before the election, uh, before they Knew Trump was going to win. I think beyond the comparisons to Trump, though, I think it's more beyond that, it's it's like every actor that has become a public figure, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Ronald Reagan, these actors that have the name recognition to be voted, right? To be voted into office. So I I think Wilson Fisk has that parallel. He's well known in New York. Um when he walks into a room, he sucks all the oxygen out of it because he's such a big figure, right? Both in voice and in physical presence. And they showed just a small clip of the the mayorial debate between him and whoever the other guy was. I would have liked to have seen the him being elected to mayor was like super fast. There was you want to talk about no buildup to something. There was no buildup to that, other than um the callbacks to Echo, where um especially in the diner scene where where Matt Murdoch and uh Fisk were talking, there were callbacks to Echo where he's like, I'm not that man anymore. I'm I'm not that violent person because of Echo's power of, I don't know, introspection. If you watch the Echo, if you watch the Echo show, he touched she touched his head, kind of took him back in into his past where he killed his dad, and Echo telling him, you know, let go of that anger, let go of that violence, and he can't do it, but he still comes back and changed person. So uh yeah, I mean, I think this is a Wilt and Fisk that's gonna be still Fiskian, but probably less violent. I mean, I don't know, we're only a couple of episodes in, we'll see what happens. I mean, you there's only so many heads you can smash in a car door as a mayor, right? So uh we'll we'll kind of see what happens. Um, but I thought it was great. I I think it's Fisk is just an overall representation of famous people winning the populace and becoming elected officials. Uh so um beyond Trump, even though the the thing's there. I thought it was interesting where people were running out in the streets like fist pumping. Like I don't remember that happening when Bill de Blasio was elected as mayor, but you know, just yeah, but uh so uh yeah, I I think it's good. I I think Wilson Fisk, if we're comparing him to Trump, I think Wilson Fisk is Trump if if Trump was a little bit smarter and surrounded people surrounded by people that like could do better instead of having you know a podcast host become the deputy director of the FBI. It's stuff like that, right? It's Wilson Wilson Fisk is is Trump if Trump was smarter and more calculating uh than than he is.
SPEAKER_02Disclaimer, that was a subjective opinion.
SPEAKER_03That was a subjective opinion.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Because just because someone's a podcast host, it doesn't necessarily undermine their their suitability for any certain role. Sure. Right? You know, the system's broken, they gotta fix it somehow. It's time to move fast and break things. That's just that's the way I look at it. Like it's just time to move fast and break shit because nothing's fucking working anymore, dude. It's not working here in Canada, it's not working there, it's not working anywhere right now. Yeah, so let's just move fast and break shit. Let's do it. Let's see what happens. Let's see how the fucking pieces fall. I think what we gotta do.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think one perfect example of of Fisk being somewhat of a changed person is when he was threatening the police commissioner and he lifted up the the paper where the sandwich was on and showed him a picture of his family and this and his the commissioner's secret love child. Easily could have been if you don't do what I say, I'm gonna kill these people because I know where they are. Now it's what you expect in politics. I will reveal to the world that you have a secret love child and it will ruin your career and ruin your reputation. That's the fisk I think we're gonna see in in this part of Daredevil. Just as Fiskian as he always is, but it's it's gonna be different. It's not gonna be the he's not gonna resort to the violence, he's gonna resort to the games that all politicians play, right? The backstabbing and and the backroom dealing, and and but he's just gonna be better at it.
SPEAKER_02Yep, yep, no, and honestly, when I first saw that picture of the kids, I was like, oh shit, Fisk is gonna murder his family. Exactly. Like that's that's first thing that went through my head, but then they had that extra piece of dialogue that was like, oh, it's uh it's a secret family. So he's got some leverage on him now, you know. It's it's uh very much um you know, uh very much like a billions type of thing.
SPEAKER_01Uh but you know they get it from the from the commissioner knowing Bobby Axelrod, you know, something like that.
SPEAKER_02So um, yeah, I get that. No, um, but yeah, but but like it just I think they need to coordinate a little bit more within Marvel. Like there just feels like a lot of echoes of other things now, it just feels like repetitive. Um I just feel like yeah, I just feel like there's a I don't know, there's like a lot of missed opportunities in this show, if I'm being honest, so far, from what I can see. Who knows what's gonna happen in the next seven episodes? But um, but yeah, but let listen, let's go back to the foggy thing for a second. Because I think people are glancing over some very important things when it comes to this decision to kill Foggy off, okay. In my personal opinion, okay, the argument that I've been running to all day is like, oh, it was set up in season three of Daredevil. Bullseye was trying to kill Karen and Foggy the entire season. Yeah, okay, fair, right? But that's seven years ago. The last time that's the last time, like that was that was when that episode that's when that show finally aired, was like seven years ago. Okay. I think that you have to um like you have to you have to get the you have to get the audience emotionally invested in the character again before you kill them. I truly believe that. I feel like this is one of the laziest pieces of writing I've ever seen, to be honest with you. It's it's it just and I have theories on why they did it, and I think it's more economical than anything, and I'll go into more detail on that. But I think when you're dealing with like a beloved legacy character, like Foggy, we're talking a character that's been around for decades, right? 67 years. He's been he's been a cornerstone of the Daredevil mythos for so long. You can't just kill him like that. You just can't do it. And honestly, I truly feel that you can't kill like even if it's just any character, like any legacy character, you can't just kill them in the first episode and like not even have a setup for it, not even have a lead up to it. No preamble, no pretext, no nothing. It doesn't really pay dividends. Like if you're optimizing for the most empty entertaining and most emotionally satisfying scenario that you can possibly have, killing him off in the first 15 minutes is not the right decision to have that outcome. Would you guys agree to that? Yeah, absolutely. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe we're talking about a choice between A and B, Rich. Like it's either yes or no.
SPEAKER_04I I I agree with them killing Foggy in the first 15 minutes. Totally okay with it. Okay, totally okay with it.
SPEAKER_02But I'm saying if you want to optimize for the most entertaining and emotionally satisfying outcome, it's not it doesn't really make a lot of sense to do it in the first in the first episode. Because if you did it later, you get the audience further invested into the character.
SPEAKER_04That that is assuming everybody's watching this cold coming in, not having seen it if we talk about emotional investment. I was emotionally invested. When Foggy died, I I I teared up because I was invested from the first three seasons of Daredevil and I didn't do a rewatch. I wanted to do a rewatch, but I didn't. I didn't have the time to do it. But yes, it was seven years ago. Now I we don't know if it's an actual seven-year time jump to where we were at the 15 minutes. But I was emotionally invested, but because only because I had to do some homework and watch the first three seasons. If I'm coming into Daredevil cold, not having watched those and being like, oh, everybody's talking about this Daredevil show. Um, and I've watched the other MCUs, let's watch this one. And you you see this, yeah, you're gonna be kind of like struck by it. You don't you don't know the relationship between Foggy Karen and Matt. You see them chummy, but you don't see how deep that relationship goes because you haven't watched anything previous to that. So, yes, on one hand, I do agree with you that it is kind of shocking in the first 15 minutes that you don't build up that emotional stakes uh within the first 15 minutes of killing off a legacy character. You do if you've watched the first three seasons on Netflix, which I have, and I have that emotional, I had that emotional connection. I was like, Okay, no way. And then they shipped Karen off to San Francisco. I was like, come on, man. And and the production choice, I think, was all right, fanboys, you wanted Karen and Foggy, we got them back, and now they're gone. So this is the daredevil that you're gonna have from here on out. Live with it. So that's my point.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's my point.
SPEAKER_04That was part of it, but I was okay, it worked for me though, in in that instance.
SPEAKER_02Sure, but building off of what you said of people that are emotionally invested through season three or after season three, right? Going into this, they're already emotionally invested. Isn't the investment going to accrue higher if you do it in seas in episode three or four? You can't argue that it wouldn't be.
SPEAKER_04I mean, it wouldn't be, but the the the title of the show is Daredevil Born Again. In other words, this is this is this is a different Daredevil than the Netflix Daredevil. And to have a different Daredevil in the Disney Plus version of Daredevil, you have to detach it from the Netflix in some way. I'm glad that they were there to make that connective tissue between the Netflix series and the Disney Plus version. But this is a whole new Daredevil. There's there's no legacy characters now other than Matt Murdoch and Wilson Fisk. They even shove bullseye into life imprisonment. I mean, we don't we don't know if that's going to be the case throughout the season might break out, who knows? But everything from the first three seasons are now gone. And and now you have um Matt Murdoch with a whole new set of friends.
SPEAKER_02I'm glad you said that because that's the sin. Therein lies the sin. You just pulled episode seven of fucking Star Wars on the fans of Daredevil. You just pulled the same shit. And I'm sorry, but that's fucking unacceptable. Totally unacceptable in my mind. And and the reason it and the reason it's so unacceptable is because they used it in the marketing to hook the fans, and then they rug pulled them.
SPEAKER_01You don't think that's they don't think that's a fucking shitty thing? They they at least gave them a couple of scenes together. Star Wars didn't give the uh the originals the scene together. Fair enough. And and there will, and and we are getting the Punisher. Hopefully, we'll get like Jessica Jones and Iron Fist. I mean, and God for please, heroes for fucking hire. Heroes, I can't say it enough. I want heroes for fucking hire. Please, please, please. Was it a rug pull?
SPEAKER_04I want heroes for hire.
SPEAKER_02It's absolutely a fucking rug pull, dude.
SPEAKER_04No, I'm not disagreeing with you. It was a rug pull, but it worked. I mean, the we we look at I was reading some reviews, some some critics' reviews. There's there's the ones that I read didn't seem to have like an issue. They they mentioned it and they said, look, it is jarring, but the way it happened worked. The the for me, and I agree with those critics, they that it worked. There was an emotional with uh Karen over Foggy's body, just crying out. It it called back to her opening scene in Netflix uh over a dead body and and screaming out and and all that. So it it had this symmetry between the Netflix series and tying it into this one, but then saying this is this is gonna be a different Matt Murdoch. This is a Matt Murdoch that doesn't want to be Daredevil anymore because of this. It was the inciting incident uh of him and they jump forward a year later.
SPEAKER_02And that's the other thing we gotta talk about. That's the other thing we gotta talk about. Matt Murdoch historically is not a character that you need to do anything to to push him over the edge. He goes over the edge all the fucking time. Historically, like without fail. So it's not even worth the sacrifice. The only reason they did the sacrifice is because of the is probably because of the contractual obligations. And this is where we're gonna talk about the contract, what my suspicions are as far as contractual obligations are. So when they start working on the daredevil that they wanted to do at first, right? It was the comedy that we've discussed previously. It was, you know, the you know, the you know, the curse to McDuffie. Um actually, before I get into this, Brad, I want to hear what you're thinking after what what Rich and I have said.
SPEAKER_01I see both I see both sides, and I agree with both of you, and I disagree with both of you. I actually I for this one, man, I well, what do you agree with and what do you disagree with? So I agree that that the death of Foggy is a legacy character. Oh, actually, let me say it this way As a comic book nerd who has read Foggy Nelson and Daredevil books in many, many issues, it pisses me off that they killed him the way that they killed him in 15 minutes in the first episode. But as a fan of just Daredevil and with to Rich's point, the born again part of it, okay, makes sense. I get it. I wish it was longer. Even if they did the cheap thing and did flashbacks through the first four episodes or whatever, I wish we would have gotten more of that. But they made up to me, they made up for it for the rest of the episode one and then episode two. Uh, so I mean, it's one of those I am gonna kind of see it's like with a TV show, it's like uh it's like a game of bowling, and they might have rolled a strike, but we gotta get the points two episodes down. So, you know, that's my analogy, and I kind of like that analogy. I'm gonna use that a little bit more.
SPEAKER_02So okay, that's fair. That's fair. Listen, I don't I I don't mean to be so animated about this, but for me, it's just the baited the bait and switch quality of all this. That's what's really pissing me off, right? It's not the fact that they killed Foggy because I would have been happy with him dying in episode four or episode five or whatever, because that actually would have made some sense. You get the you get the audience emotionally invested in him again and you kill him off. And the only reason they didn't, and this is my theory, I think the only reason they didn't do that is because they didn't want to pay him to do the episodes, so they could do that. So they also wanted to keep the contractual obligations that they had with the actress that was playing Krista McDuffie because clearly this is going to be the new this is going to be the new friend circle for Matt. This is going to be his new his new people, right? And so they have to meet the so so so my so this is what this is what I think happened. The previous version of the story that got axed, right? All those actors were already hired. Kirsten McDuffie was already a part of that. I'm sure, I'm sure the other guy, what's his name? Cherry. I'm sure Cherry was a part of that. I'm sure BB was a part of that. I'm sure some of Fisk's people were a part of that. And what happened was they were like, oh shit, we're going down the wrong road. We got to redo a bunch of things. But if we're going to redo this, we got to do it on a budget. We can't get crazy with this. How can we satisfy the fans? Oh, I know what we can do. We can bait and switch Karen and Foggy to get them reinvested emotionally as we lead up to the series, right? And as they get there, they're like, okay, what pieces can we pull from this to put into here and to make it make sense and to also change the tone? What can we do here that's not going to cost us a ton of money? And this is what we got. This is basically what we got. And I think one of the most prohibitive things for them financially would have been keeping Karen and Foggy around or Deborah and Eldon around. That would have been a financially prohibitive thing for them. Plus, they've already signed this contract with Kirsten McDuffie the what the late the the uh the actress playing Kirsten McDuffie. Brad, can you look that up? I don't want to keep calling her the actress that played Kirsten McDuffie, but the actress that played Kirsten McDuffie and they committed to this new version of Matt as a lawyer where he's now partners with Kirsten McDuffie and he has uh and he has a law firm with Kirsten McDuffie and all these other things. So they had to find sort of a middle ground, and if you're thinking about it, yeah, you know what, it's not as bad as it could have been, but they definitely misled the fans in the process. And Nikki James. Nikki Jane? Okay, yeah, Nikki James. James, Nikki James, okay.
SPEAKER_01Yep, she's from Severance, actually. She was in Severance.
SPEAKER_02She's got a good Oh, she's the she's the one given all the medical, she's the like the pseudo doctor.
SPEAKER_01I've never watched Severance yet. Oh, okay. On my queue. I I was five minutes into episode one, and uh then my wife fell asleep, and it and it crossed the point of that she wants to watch it too, but I'm not allowed to watch it with her, and I I I'm a man, I can't figure out like how long do I wait before I go ahead or and just risk it. So there's it.
SPEAKER_02Right. Okay. Um, yeah. So I basically think that they willfully did this knowing that they were gonna mislead the fans in the marketing and that this was gonna be this is what this is what was like this is what was gonna happen. And I think they more or less did it so they could save some money and they didn't inflate the budget because they had a whole thing laid out at first, and then they realized in the last moments, they're like, oh shit, we are going down the wrong road. We have to recover, but we can't pay for two entire productions. So how can we fix this problem? I that's my that's my theory. Thoughts valid?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, this this could have ended, this could have gone badly, uh, the way they did this. Luckily, it didn't end badly. By the end of episode two, I wasn't thinking of Karen and Foggy anymore. I was thinking about where are we moving forward, especially with the the White Tiger law drama. That's gonna be very intriguing, only because, you know, I like law procedurals. Uh so I I think that's gonna be a really fun ass uh B plot of this show is is him, you know, defending White Tiger. So that's that's gonna be fun. But yeah, I mean if if handled poorly, I think this could have been bad. But from the discourse, I don't know if it's about 50-50, but I there's not as much backlash. I'm not reading as much backlash, could could be the algorithm, but I'm not reading as much backlash about the foggy thing that I thought there would have been, because I think it was handled well. I I think they gave him, was it quick? Yes, but it was a proper send-off. I think it was a proper send-off for both of them, very emotional. Um, the way it all happened and the driving point that made Matt Murdoch hit rock bottom as Daredevil when he threw bullseye off the top of the roof. You know, he has that no no-killing rule, sort of similar to Batman. Um, but you know, he didn't think about it and just threw him off the roof. Now, bullseye being bullseye, he lived through it. Uh, so I don't know how a new spine saves you from falling on your head, but that's a whole nother thing. So, but uh I I think they did well. Um, and I and it's it's moving, it's moving forward. So we're not tied, we're not gonna have those endless comparisons to the Netflix series anymore. This is a whole new thing. There were some comparisons at the beginning, but now we're in a new new era of Daredevil.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but why wouldn't you want to pay homage, like direct homage to the Netflix series? Like, is your artistic ego so big that you can't handle, you know, sort of kind of riding those coattails a little bit? Yeah, it's just so the fans can get what they want. Yeah, it's Disney. That's sad, man. That's really fucking sad. That's really fucking sad.
SPEAKER_01The the mouse owns the world, man. The mouse the the mouse is like uh and mouse, don't get mad at me. Don't get mad at me, please.
unknownThe fan.
SPEAKER_02The fans literally campaigned to get Foggy and Karen back in the show. Yeah. They campaigned for that. And I think it's a pretty fucking dirty ass thing that what they did. Like, they should like I don't know, man. It's not cool. Well, you know, Karen's.
SPEAKER_04It's not cool at all. Karen's not dead. She could come back for some reason.
SPEAKER_02And you know, by the end of the day, apparently she's cast in season two already. Yeah. And so is Eldon. Yeah. Like, how does that work?
SPEAKER_04Cause because uh Foggy gets resurrected by the hand by episode nine. You didn't Oh god, I don't know that.
SPEAKER_01The hand's resurrected back as a as an assassin from the and it is gonna be I don't know, and then Electra will come back as well. That's right. And then that's when Jessica Jones is gonna come back and start flying around. That'll that'll be the power that promotes or punching shit.
SPEAKER_02Apparently, there's like some comic storyline where Foggy does die, but he like ends up working in secret with somebody else or some shit, like it was like a fake death.
SPEAKER_03Witness protection. So I think he was in witness protection or something.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think something like along those lines. Yeah. So my hope is it's that because if it's that, then I'll apologize and I'll you know I'll give up my tirade. But if it's not that dude, it's a pretty fucking dirty pool.
SPEAKER_04You know, pretty goddamn dirty pool. You know, they say no one in comics stays dead unless you're Uncle Ben. So yeah, that's true. So we'll see. We're really two episodes in.
SPEAKER_02So one scene we haven't talked about is that I want to talk about is Karen. Um that scene in the bar where she asked Matt to go home with her, like just randomly hook up. That's not Karen. Karen doesn't do that. Like that was so out of character. Did you guys pick that up or no? Well, they did hook up in the Netflix series, so it's not completely out of but but wait a second, but they were emotionally invested in each other, they wanted to be together. It wasn't like a fuck buddy situation. This was a fuck buddy situation. Because Matt literally says to her, he goes, I think that's against the rules of friendship. Like he says something a lot like you know akin to that.
SPEAKER_04They had a couple of drinks in them, they were having fun, inhibitions were lowered.
SPEAKER_02Fuck yeah, man.
SPEAKER_04Alcohol changes people, man.
SPEAKER_02Am I the only person who cares about accurate characterization? Like, am I the only person on this planet depends on the character that like has no and that has any integrity when it comes to this shit anymore? Like, seriously.
SPEAKER_01I didn't for me when it was coming to that, I I rolled my eyes to be honest with you. I'm like, okay, uh, that's not what I'm here for. I don't need a relationship between between between the two. Just and then it was shot down fast enough. I'm like, all right, whatever. But I wouldn't have been mad if they would have been like, all right, let's go hook up for a little bit.
SPEAKER_04I think they were I think it was all in jest. They were just joking with each other because of their past, right? Because they have hooked up in the past, they're like, hey man, you wanna you want to get out of here? They had a couple of drinks and they're having fun. They're walking out of their storefront law firm, you know, arm in arm with all three of each other. They had a great day of something, and they're celebrating Cherry's retirement. It's a good, it's a good time, it's a party atmosphere, and it shows everybody having fun because what comes next is, you know, the whole bullseye invading everything. And so it has that dichotomy of everybody's cheery, everybody's fun, and then it just makes that fight scene that much darker.
SPEAKER_02I get it, but we get we get one conversation between the two of them, and they're talking about hooking up with each other. Just I'm just looking for a little bit more substance, you know? That's all it was. I think it was brevity. So the other scene I want to talk about is when Bullseye hit the ground behind Karen as she was tending to Foggy, and the way that they played that, that scene deserves a fucking Oscar, like 70 Oscars.
SPEAKER_04When he says hello, Karen.
SPEAKER_02No, no, no, no, no. When she's tending to Foggy after he got shot, and and and Matt throws Bullseye off of the roof behind her, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she hears the splat and she's like, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. She does not want to turn around. Yep, because she thinks it's potentially Matt. Right? Yeah, that scene deserves like all the Oscars. She is such a great actor. Rock in kills it.
SPEAKER_03She is fantastic. Debran Waldo.
SPEAKER_02She's like, yeah, she's one, she's without a doubt one of the best living at living actors on the planet right now. And again, another reason why I'm annoyed that we're not going to get to see much of her, unfortunately, it seems.
SPEAKER_01Um, and to send her to San Francisco, like where She-Hulk took place.
SPEAKER_04Uh what? No, She-Hulk was in New York. I mean wasn't in New York? She was in California first. Yeah, she was in LA. Okay. Oh, well.
SPEAKER_02She Hulk was in LA.
SPEAKER_04That was LA. Yeah. Ant-Man's in San Francisco.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So maybe Karen and Ant-Man, you know. Right. I don't think so.
SPEAKER_02What a dork. Hey Karen, you want to see a trick? Well, those card tricks. Yeah, he's pretty good with that shit, isn't he? Um, but yeah, no, I um yeah, that scene was amazing. Just so well played. So just I would love to hear her on a podcast and say that was her idea. Because that was so creative and so inventive. Like, I just want to hear her say, like, I improved that. You know, they gave me some blocking, they told me where to be, they told me what was gonna happen, and I came up with that whole thing on my own. That's what I want to hear for her. Because like it was just brilliant, just a brilliant way to play that scene.
SPEAKER_01So good. With uh Deborah and Wool, um, she has a movie coming out this week. She's in Queen of the Ring.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. With uh with Emily Bett Rickards, yeah, from the Aeroverse. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Interesting. Gladys Gillam.
SPEAKER_02Interesting.
SPEAKER_01And apparently she was in Quantum Leap, the the updated Quantum Leap back in uh a couple years ago. Oh, that show was bad, dude. Yeah, that show was bad. I never watched it. I watched one episode and I was like, yep, I'll pass. Yeah, it was it was not great.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it was so not great, I don't remember Deborah Anwall even being in it. It was that bad.
SPEAKER_02So the other thing about this born again concept, by the way, born again is from like literally when Wilson Fisk destroyed Matt Murdoch's life in the comics during the 80s. So I'm really getting tired of people being that's called Born Again. It's not a fucking happy thing, guys. It's not it's not something you should be invoking to be like, oh, we're you know, new Daredevil. No, that's not that's not what it's about at all. But, anyways, my point is this um the the the the other thing about this new version born again daredevil that I really did not fuck with, that new apartment, and the fact that he's not living in Hell's Kitchen anymore. Like what it's it's new Daredevil.
SPEAKER_04It's Matt the lawyer now, so he has to play the part. Nice, nice apartment with a view, nice office with with an actual conference route table. This is this is a tell me this is a year have passed.
SPEAKER_02Tell me you don't understand Matt Murdoch without telling me you don't understand Matt Murdoch.
SPEAKER_01Okay, you're valid here. Like, yes, uh that because he is he's the devil of of Hell's Kitchen. It's part of the character of Daredevil. Yeah. I mean, like, it's that's hell devil. I mean, like, that's that's the whole that's part of the gimmick. It's the whole thing.
SPEAKER_02He's the devil of hell's kitchen. But this is hell's kitchen.
SPEAKER_04But this was to show Matt not trying to be Daredevil for that year. This was this was him going cold turkey on the whole Daredevil thing. He he was trying to separate himself from that, from that persona, and it's you know, this is the creative decision that Disney Plus made, whether I personally understand Daredevil or not. I understand why they did that. Because if they if if the premise was and and they laid the groundwork that he was not going to be Daredevil, and and we saw that at the end of season uh episode two, where he another great fight scene, my god, that was a great fight scene. Yeah, and and he yells into the ether after doing it because he didn't want to do that. It was like it it him being he was addicted to being daredevil, and and with that comes that addictive behavior. He hit rock bottom with doing with killing bullseye. He realizes he can't he cannot be daredevil anymore if he's willing to kill people. So he makes a complete 180 turn, quits I don't know if he quit cold turkey, but he quit cold turkey for a year. So if he was in Hell's Kitchen in his old apartment, you're you're surrounding yourself like an alcoholic surrounding themselves with alcohol. If they don't want to drink anymore, they got to separate themselves from that. And that's what he did, and that's that's why again it's called Born Again. He this is a this is a different Matt Murdoch now. But we're gonna see him come back to being that daredevil after that fight.
SPEAKER_02I get that, but why do you have to start off the story with Daredevil giving up being Daredevil? It doesn't like why like what purpose does that serve other than to give the writers, you know, this this this sort of plastic transition, you know, that they can sort of depend on to kind of do the work for them.
SPEAKER_04Well, because Matt Murdoch crossed a line. He he crossed a line, he said he wouldn't cross is by almost killing bullseye, as deadly of an enemy as he's been. What's that?
SPEAKER_02I understand that part. So why write yourself into a corner where it like in the like the first episode where you have to literally have him give up the mantle? Like what purpose, like what purpose is that going to serve?
SPEAKER_04That he was trying to make a change, that he was trying to be a better human, a better person. Now, at the like I said, at the end of episode two, he's back. He's back to being Daredevil. We're gonna see him kicking ass again. So it it didn't last long, I mean a year, but it didn't last long for us as a viewer. So it was, you know, it's it's like when Spider-Man gave up, gave up the the You're it's you're making my point for me.
SPEAKER_02You're making my point for me. Like it didn't last long, you know? It was like, oh shit, I don't smoke anymore. Why do I have this cigarette in my hand? Oh shit. Like, that's literally what it was like.
SPEAKER_04Because that's literally what it was like. He fell off the wagon. It's it's like any addict that's like, why am I doing drugs again? Well, there was an incident that that made me fall off the wagon. How am I gonna struggle with that now? How am I gonna get back from that now? He did not want to, he probably killed those two guys in the fight, the way it looked. He killed that one guy. He didn't want to do what he just did, and yelling out in primal in a primal way is evidence of that. He knew he just messed up, but now how is he gonna struggle with that through the rest? And and we've seen that in previous Daredevil iterations, uh being him, him being Catholic and him being a lawyer. He's both sides of that coin of I need to follow the law, but when the law fails, I gotta go beat somebody up. But he, you know, he has that inner turmoil within himself. So now we kind of get to see that it uh again, I guess, in this sense, um, with him beating those two guys up at the end of episode two. He didn't want to do it, but he he did it and he and we're back, you know. So he's getting he's got his one, he's got his day one, he's got his day one chip, and now he's gotta we gotta figure out what he does with it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I hear what you're saying, dude. Um but but but you're kind of but like I said, you're kind of making my point for me. Like it it it really uh I don't know, we'll see what happens. Like we got seven episodes to go, but having him move out of Hell's Kid, it just it feels it feels like a sitcom. It's like, oh, I'm not gonna be this person anymore, so I'm gonna move into this this fancy apartment and I'm gonna change my clothes and like it just it just feels it feels dumb and empty.
SPEAKER_01Like he's put down one costume and picks up another.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then we're gonna get the scene where he's he stands in front of all of his costumes and he's trying to pick which one he likes the best, but he can't see, so that's why it's the dumbest scene ever. Because like color really doesn't matter to Matt Murdoch at all. He kind of sees everything in this sort of grayish kind of wash of everything. Hilarious. Um yeah. Well, listen, um I really hope that they've got something excellent planned for these next seven episodes. Because and you know, Rich, you were saying that you haven't seen a lot of negative feedback about these episodes. I have, I've seen quite a bit, to be honest with you. Um it has not been as positive as people as people are making it out to be. People definitely feel cheated a little bit about the whole foggy and Karen thing. Um I haven't been on the Daredevil Reddit yet. I'm planning on going back there, probably checking out sometime tomorrow. But um predictions. Let's talk about predictions.
SPEAKER_04So my or go ahead. No, sorry, go ahead. I was I was gonna say I I don't know what to what to make of what's gonna happen, but go ahead, Brad.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So uh in my prediction is just based totally on knowing that the punisher is coming, and the punisher is gonna help deal with the police corruption. They're gonna identify police disc police corruption. There's gonna be a break somewhere between Fisk and Daredevil as as Daredevil is putting on his old suit, Fisk is putting on his old suit, and it's gonna come to head. There's gonna be the the attorney fight. Uh, we're gonna get a cool fight scene with White Tiger, Daredevil, and Punisher, you know, kicking the cops ass, I guess. I'm gonna say. Um man, that's that's kind of where where I'm thinking. I I don't think we have enough to base uh any anything true on there, especially because you know the big part was Foggy's death, and you're like, oh crap, uh what's going on now? But with the attorney thing, and and then his he's uh re representing White Tiger. I will say they they fit he figured out he was White Tiger very, very fast.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think isn't isn't that Hero 101, don't put your super suit underneath your bed.
SPEAKER_02That's yo, don't even get me started on that shit. That was the dumbest fucking thing I've ever seen.
SPEAKER_01That was stupid. That was very stupid.
SPEAKER_02So fucking bad. Like, what? You have the supersuit under your bed?
SPEAKER_04Another thing that I like too about the whole White Tiger trial situation is with a straight face, they're sitting in the judge's office going, well, he didn't have his white suit on and he wasn't wearing the magical amulet. Like, this is where we are in New York in the MCU. Yeah, I know. Everything is so crazy that you can talk to a judge with a straight face and say magic amulet in in your defense. It's so it was so funny. I I don't know if it was pretty meant to be funny, but I found it to be kind of hilarious.
SPEAKER_01Um and the commissioner was so straight laced, and the cops are trying to kill the the attorney to the guy, and like okay.
SPEAKER_04I I do want to talk about the cop with the punisher tattoo on his arm. What do we make of that? What what do you think that is?
SPEAKER_02Uh what was what was behind the skull? I paused it. I couldn't tell. Was it a bullet?
SPEAKER_04I I I couldn't tell either.
SPEAKER_02Like is I couldn't tell either.
SPEAKER_04Do you think the Punisher has like cops that work for him? Or do we think this is some sort of weird acolyte type of situation where they're they look to kind of like you know, we see today in in the real world, where they look to the Punisher as some sort of hero, but really he's folk hero? Yeah, yeah, as a folk hero.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a way to put do a political statement.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it could be a bastardization of of what the punisher stands for, definitely. Yeah. Um yeah, it could be a perversion of it, like the way that he doles out justice, I think. That could be actually the approach that they're going for.
SPEAKER_04Because they showed it on purpose, so it's gotta, it's gonna come into play later, as in like the punisher comes in and's like gives them a monologue of you wear my you wear my logo, but you don't stand for anything that I stand for. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's definitely coming. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely coming. How does how does Heather Glenn fit into all this besides just being Matt's uh Matt's romantic interest?
SPEAKER_04Oh, we did meet Muse when when Heather Glenn was doing the book read.
SPEAKER_02Do we know that's Muse for sure though?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that was the actor that's played that plays Muse. Yeah. The curly-headed kind of scrawny looking guy. Why would they publish that? Just don't tell us who the actor is so we can figure it out for our fucking selves. That's the fun part. If Muse kills Heather, I think I might riot, because that's I mean, that's gonna be bad. Like, that's gonna be bad.
SPEAKER_02Well there's already been a mentally mentally deranged person that was seeing a therapist in the continuity of the the on-screen mythos, bullseye. Um did he kill his therapist? No, he didn't kill his therapist. So I don't know, but and what about and what about her being the marriage counselor for fucking Wilson Fisk and Mrs. Fisk, Vanessa.
SPEAKER_01Such a coincidence. I mean, like yeah.
SPEAKER_04I think it's I think it's an interesting thing for them to be in marriage counseling because you know, while while uh Fisk was away getting shot in the eye in Hawkeye and recuperating from that and then going to Oklahoma trying to to win back Echo back into the fold, you know, Mrs. Fisk had to run things. She had to run the criminal empire, and she likes it, and she's making money, and everybody's getting along in the underworld. And she's good at it. And she's good at it. And then he comes back as mayor and you know, kind of wants that a little bit of that back. So it's kind of this internal fight, you know, you you gave me control of this because you asked me to, and now I don't want to relinquish control of it again. So I thought it was interesting. And and the with them sitting on the couch being far apart from each other, I thought was uh it was an interesting take. Um so it'll it'll be interesting to see how they cross paths. They they obviously well, I don't want to say obviously, they they probably don't know that Heather and Matt Murdoch are are an item, so it is coincidental, but it'll be interesting to see as they progress through the counseling and they are gonna find out that they're together, how that plays into the machinations of Wilson Fisk's new political career. Right. Um so yeah, I thought I thought that was interesting. Um one Easter egg I thought I want to talk about real quick was when Bullseye threw the paperclip at the fly. That was that was a nice little callback to Colin Farrell's Bullseye in in uh Ben Affleck's Daredevil, where he killed the dude with the paperclip. I thought, oh see, that's a nice little nice little homage to the uh unfairly maligned Ben Affleck Daredevil.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and there was a couple of um there was a couple of because the script demands it moments too, at the at in in that beginning sequence, like throughout the entire series, we hear Matt being able to hear pretty much like across town of like everybody doing everything, right? But when Bullseye is stalking this guy to get Foggy to come to his place or whatever, he's not able to hear that. Like, that was kind of selective, in my opinion. But what can you do?
SPEAKER_04So speaking of his powers, the way they just the the way they depicted him on screen, I loved how they played with the aspect ratio of different things. Like when he was listening to Foggy's conversation on the phone, the aspect ratio changed and really focused in on Foggy. Um, and then you have BB Yurik and doing her little web series, and that aspect ratio changes, and then the opening scene where the aspect ratio opens up as if we're like opening up to a new world. It's it was it was really some choice cinematography uh options there that I thought was really neat to see. And the sound design was really good too.
SPEAKER_02The special effects have been getting a little bit of heat, uh, a little bit of salt from uh from the fans. Uh, and I can see where they're coming from. Like the roof, the roof swinging scenes were not were not the greatest. They were very slapped together, in my opinion. Uh, they definitely could have been better. I think the roof swinging scenes we saw in Ben Affleck's movie were were better than what we got in this particular show. What did you guys think of the special effects?
SPEAKER_01I I don't have any issues really. I thought it was fine. Um I I definitely can see what you're saying when the with the roof scene with were with that roof scene when he's the little s Billy Club swing. Um But yeah, I mean, I guess I didn't really pay much attention to it. I was like, all right, it is what it is. So yeah, I thought the physics were a little weird.
SPEAKER_04Like he was stiff for swinging through the air. Like it's it's not like how Spider-Man swings through the air. Like when Spider-Man swings, you can see the physics happening. And but with this one, it was like very much strike a pose and then swing from one part to the other. Um now what I thought was kind of fun was when he landed on the roof in that in a Spider-Man pose, and everybody took that screenshot and said, Oh, Spider-Man's making a cameo because they thought that was Spider-Man, but it wasn't. It was just Daredevil. So uh that was that was cool. Um, that was pretty fun. One thing that the opening fight scene in episode one has taught me is I think I need to get a new TV because when it got really dark, I couldn't see anything because the black levels on my TV suck. So I gotta I gotta I gotta get a new TV for for that. If they continue to have these fights in the dark, I'm not gonna be able to see anything.
SPEAKER_02Did you get did you guys find it weird when the camera followed Cherry out during that wonder? And then like you come back and it's like the fight just continued as the camera got back into position. That was kind of weird.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think that was one of those clever editing tricks for the for the winner.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but it didn't work. Because as the camera pulled back in, I was like, what? Where are we? I just saw two guys fighting each other again, and I'm like, oh, okay. Why did we not stay with the fight? Like, that's what the winners are for. They're for the fight. They're not to go out and survey what's happening outside the bar. That doesn't really make a lot of sense. Um, yeah, I'm I'm cautiously optimistic. I'm a little bit offended by the whole like rug pull thing on the fans. I think that's pretty dirty. Not gonna lie. I don't know. You guys probably think I've complained a lot in this episode, but what can I do?
SPEAKER_01This makes their good conversation though when we're not all in agreement, though. I thought you said you liked the show, Frank.
SPEAKER_02I do like the show. Like, like like I'm not gonna put it in, you know, I'm not gonna say it's awful or it's bad. I don't think it's bad, plus we're only two episodes in. But if I'm being honest with myself and I'm being true to myself and I'm reacting honestly and I'm being sincere about the way that I'm reacting, then I've gotta, you know, I've gotta share these thoughts. Because this is how I feel. Like, it's not cool to do this shit to people, you know, like you can't like for me. If I was a producer on this show and I saw, you know, the people above me answer the call from the fans, like, hey, you know what? We're seeing a lot of press, like, we're seeing a lot of push online to to get to get Deborah back and to get Eldon back. And you know, we're gonna do it. I'd be like, oh, that's great, guys. That's amazing. You know, give the fans what they want. That's amazing. And then I was in a meeting with them six weeks later and they laid out for me, they're like, okay, so this is what we're gonna do. I'd be like, I quit. See ya. Cause it's just it's just wrong. It's not cool. Like, you know, I like I like Rich, I know it doesn't bother you that much, but like I think where where it doesn't bother you as far as the content of the show goes, I get that. But you know, uh coming from a principled place, it's it's it's a pretty shitty thing to do. Would you agree to that?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean, I I would agree it was a bit of a rug pull, but for the purposes of the show, it worked. Uh, and that's where I'm coming at it from.
SPEAKER_02But it wasn't for the purposes of the show, I don't think. I think it was for the purposes of getting what they wanted and what and get getting what getting what they wanted, but at the same time pacifying the fan base enough so they would stay engaged and stay interested in the series. So again, it's like it's like um it's like a drug dealer that gives out a free dose, you know, to get the you know, to get the ad hooked. You give them you give them a taste and they're like, oh shit, you know, I want some more, right? And that's kind of what they did with this whole foggy. They're like, oh, we're bringing back Eldon, we're bringing back Deborah, oh, we're gonna put them in the pressers, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna show you interviews with Charlie and them and all this shit just to do this.
SPEAKER_04I mean, it was it was kind of funny watching it was kind of funny watching the interviews with um Eldon going, oh yeah, it was just it was just so great to be back on the show and and being embodying foggy again, and then I'm watching it back on, dude, you were in there for like five minutes. How much joy did you have? You you were there for one scene, and then you went to the crap table and then headed home.
SPEAKER_01Most of the flashback in season two, though, too. So uh he's gonna get a be him again.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Him him just for that little check, get that check.
SPEAKER_02Get that him and Deborah, him and Deborah signed NDAs probably this thick. Oh yeah. And yeah, but I don't know, man. Like why like Marvel's reputation couldn't be worse than it is right now. Like there the sentiment from the fans couldn't be as it couldn't be lower at this point. So why would you even gamble like this? It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any fucking sense whatsoever. I don't know. Anyways, come back next episode. I promise to be more positive.
SPEAKER_04Too early to tell. Too early to tell.
SPEAKER_02Oh man, it's just dude, it's it's just not cool. That's all. I don't know. Anyways, um I'm just speaking for the fans, I hope, but whatever. Cool. All right, so thank you guys so much for joining us for this episode of Meanwhile Back on the Podcast. Uh, we will come back with another review for Daredevil Born Again for episode three. Once they drop it. Are they dropping it in twos or are they dropping it individually now? I was just looking at it.
SPEAKER_01They are dropping it in ones.
SPEAKER_02In ones, in singles.
SPEAKER_01Yep. All right, just like the shrimp club. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. It's gonna go until April 19th, is the or April 15th is the final episode. Okay, so the next one's what, next Tuesday?
SPEAKER_02Next Tuesday. Yep, Tuesdays at nine. Tuesdays at nine. Cool. All right, well, we will be back here for that. And uh, if they kill off Karen, I'm gonna fucking lose my mind.
SPEAKER_01So they're gonna get Matt uh a a Daredevil and Ant-Man team up in San Francisco. I would pay to see that. Maybe just a little bit.
SPEAKER_05Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02All right, folks. Well, why am I touching my microphone? All right, folks. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Uh take care, and uh be sure to go check out some of those back episodes from meanwhile, and uh, we'll see you on the next one. Peace.
