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Court Of Lore
Daredevil: Born Again After Show - Ep. 3 - (Ep. 152)
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Welcome to Meanwhile’s Daredevil: Born Again After Show for Episode 3!
Frank and Rich are calling it—Marvel TV’s best yet. Matt’s courtroom hustle freed Hector Ayala, only for that Punisher gut-punch to steal the show. Fisk and Vanessa are cracking, the legal drama’s unreal—sometimes literally—and those coquí tears? Pure gold. Is the pacing racing too fast, or just heating up? We’re unpacking the grit, the twists, and what’s next
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Coming up on this episode, it's Meanwhile's Daredevil Born Again After Show. We're breaking down episode 3, and we're a bag of emotions after seeing Hector Ayala's courtroom victory lap end with a skull-branded bullet, punisher, or crooked badge. And as impressive as Matt's courtroom performance was, Rich plays armchair prosecutor and lays down a free scathing critique. We ask the question of whether there's some good cops left in New York, and we also dig deep on the fist marriage. All this and so much more coming up on this episode of Meanwhile Back on the Podcast. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Meanwhile Back on the Podcast. We are here to talk about Daredevil Born Again, episode three. And uh Bradley is not with us tonight. He is uh doing a work thing. Uh, but Rich is with us. What's up, Rich? How are you? What up? Living the dream, man. Living the dream. You go are you are you wearing another Deadpool shirt? How many Deadpool shirts do you have, bro?
SPEAKER_02Just I have two. Actually, I haven't worn my other one. I have this one, and then I have um a shirt that says Deadpoo on it, and it's Winnie the Pooh dressed as Deadpool. Okay. Oh, I actually I do have one more Deadpool shirt with a little insignia on the on the on the pocket area. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you wear the Winnie Pooh one, I'm definitely gonna make fun of you. That that's happening, dude.
SPEAKER_02It's my favorite shirt, and everybody when I walk around in it, people love it. They're like, I love your shirt. It's a great play on a name. It's it's Dead Pooh looking just totally awesome. It's it's the best poo's ever looked. No pants, too. It's just the shirt, no pants.
SPEAKER_01See, see, I I don't like those Disney crossover things or the mashups, the cartoon mashups. Like, I like the okay, so let me give you an example. The Funko Pops. Uh-huh. I like the toys. Like they look cool, right? Like they're they're unique. Like I have a couple of them myself, but I would never wear a Funko Pops design t-shirt. It just doesn't look it just doesn't look hard enough for me. Like it has hard. Yeah. Like if I'm gonna like I have I have X-Men shirts, I have Star Wars shirts, and it has to be like a really dope, dope graphic. And I don't like anything that has like the logo incorporated into it. I know I'm wearing a fucking Marvel hat right now. I get that. I get the irony of that. But if this had like if this had a picture of a character and it said Marvel, I wouldn't wear it. I just it like I just have this weird thing with aesthetics. Like it like it has to be has to be a clean design. But anyways, we are totally digressing.
SPEAKER_02Let's start talking about next week. The Deadpooh next week the Deadpooh shirt's coming out. I haven't worn it in a while because it's starting to fade. So I kind of stored away, like all protected and stuff. So I'll pull it out next week and I dare you to make fun of it. It will put a smile on your face.
SPEAKER_01If I'm smiling, it's because I'm laughing, but that's about it. But anyways, um What are we talking about? What are we talking about? Yeah, man. Daredevil Born Again, episode three. So they didn't kill Karen, so I'm happy. Um, and if you tuned in for episode two, you saw me go down a very dark, dark tunnel. Uh, I was not happy about episode one and two at all. But I gotta say, I gotta say, this was like this was like from the other free throw line, like the other free throw line, not not their free throw line, the other free throw line. Like this was just an amazing, amazing episode. I loved it. I loved everything about this episode. It was fantastic. Yep. I honestly feel, and I hope I'm not being hyperbolic here. You guys in the comments can let me know if I'm being hyperbolic. That's fine. But I think that this is the best episode of Marvel television we have ever had. Possibly the best episode. The other one I would probably compare it to is uh season two, where uh Frank ties Punisher up and they have that, or sorry, Frank Frank ties Daredevil up and they have that conversation on the rooftop as he's chained to the chained to the chimney. Like that's just amazing dialogue, and it's so good. But this episode was awesome. Like it was just firing on all cylinders. Um, the performances were incredible. Uh I loved all the misdirection. Like this is just all like this episode should have been called misdirection. Like misdirection on steroids because everything was a misdirection. There wasn't any, there wasn't any linear really anything happening in this episode. Um, but yeah, the performances were fantastic. Uh, I love the courtroom drama. I loved all the twists and turns. Uh, I really loved that they set up that they that the that the writing team had the foresight to do that setup in the previous episode for the whole, you know, uh uh Hector Ayala is White Tiger, uh you know, and whether that would be used in the courtroom or not, right? And why it would be used and whatever. But they nailed it. Like the way that they went about using that was just awesome. I love that. I love that part. What were some of your first impressions?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I thought it was a standout episode. Um, I you could tell they reshot the pilot, and I think episode three is where they really wanted to take, where they wanted to take this new daredevil in this direction. This was like law and order special vigilante unit. I thought it was fantastic. Um, and it was it was it was really good. I mean, Hector or uh Hector uh uh Ayala, Camar de Las Reyes, yeah, Camar de Las Reyes, awesome performance by him. And it was even more poignant. Spoiler, I guess spoiler alert. Do we play spoiler alerts on the on this podcast?
SPEAKER_01So spoiler alert. Um the the if you're watching the after show, I'm not apologizing to you for spoiling shit. That's not happening, bro.
SPEAKER_02But the uh this episode was even more poignant because the actor that played White Tiger, you know, passed away from cancer in 2023. Red C B's brother. Yeah, and then he dies at the end of this episode, um, in in a real shocking way. And yeah, I I honestly did not see it coming. I'm like, oh, cool, we're gonna see him suit up, we're gonna see him because the only fighting we've seen of White Tiger was a grainy cell phone uh video of him kicking butt in a bodega. Yeah, nothing, nothing like in full regalia. So I was like, oh, we're gonna see him like and right after he gets out of court and Matt telling him, look, you you can't do this anymore. If if you're found innocent, you gotta stop doing this. He's like, I can't. It's like breathing. It's me, bro. Yeah, this is who I this is who I am. And he suits up and then he gets domed uh by by uh uh not not Frank Castle, not Frank Castle, not Frank Castle people, uh but dirty cop for sure. I mean, they made it a point to show a lot of their um tattoos so we know you know leading up to this, it was it was a corrupt cop. And and this is a perfect setup and plot point pivot to bring back the Punisher and be like, because I I predict the next episode's gonna be Matt's fine f Matt finds out about this. He goes and finds Frank, and he's gonna say, Frank, there's there's people doing this in your name. You know, you we can't allow this to happen. And and we're gonna go.
SPEAKER_01I don't think it's gonna be that clean. I think Matt's gonna go to Frank thinking it was him.
SPEAKER_02Oh, good point, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And because they want like you know the way that I see the creative direction of this show going is that they really like the misdirection. They want to they want to make sure that um they want to make sure that um that whatever they're setting up is not necessarily the direction that they want to go. They want to take the audience in a different direction. Um, so I definitely see Matt confronting Frank and saying, hey man, like this guy was on camera wearing a Punisher vest. We saw him, like, was it you? And then it's gonna be this whole thing. Like, I think that's where it's kind of going.
SPEAKER_02It's gonna be that trope of two friends fight before they fight together. They fight each other before they fight together, right? So it could be.
SPEAKER_01I don't know. I hope that it's not it though. I don't want to see Frank and Matt fight, it doesn't make sense right now.
SPEAKER_02In Matt's gravelly voice, tell me this wasn't you, tell me this wasn't you, you know? Yeah, but uh I I thought this whole episode was really was really great. Um, Wilson Fisk and Vanessa in the marriage counseling again. You know, I got to thinking about um the Netflix series and how much Wilson, how much Fisk loved Vanessa, put her on a pedestal, would do anything for her, would would do literally anything for her, but he's not willing to do this for her. And she's really like upset about this. Even at the dinner or at the breakfast where they're spread so far apart, which is unlike their love story in the first you know, three seasons of the Netflix series, yeah. And and she's like, look, there's this painting that came up, I could easily wash two million dollars through that. And he's like, No, can't be doing that. And so I'm I'm interested interested to see where this marriage counseling kind of B plot is gonna take. Um, is this gonna be like where uh Fisk breaks bad to win Vanessa? Like, what's what's worth more to him? The the mayor the mayorship or Vanessa, and it's gonna have this tipping point in where that's gonna happen. We only got six more episodes, but the already greenlit season two, and I think I don't know if it's already in production, I don't know. But I mean, there's not enough episodes to tie up the storylines for this one, so I absolutely think it's gonna end in a cliffhanger after nine episodes, right? It's just season two. It's almost like they took there were supposed to be 18 episodes in the first season. I think they decided to split it up into two seasons. Um so that's probably the direction we're we're gonna take with this one. But I thought that scene was really great. Um the way they're showing the progression or the the the descent of their marriage uh from such lofty romantic highs to to where they're at now.
SPEAKER_01So well, I've got a I've got a thread I want to tug on there a little bit with Vanessa and Fisk. Um I get the feeling that Wilson doesn't quite know who he is anymore. And I feel like Vanessa has got that sense too, and she almost senses weakness in him because he doesn't have that behind him anymore. He he he he can't he can't call on that part of his personality anymore, um, or he doesn't want to, or he's resisting, you know, the urge to want to call on that part of his personality, and I think that's having a detrimental effect on their relationship.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think in a way it reflects this sort of modern conversation that's happening right now between, you know, in the dating world about men and women, and like, you know, can men show their vulnerable side? Can they, you know, can they let go of uh you know their dominance and their strength every once in a while and still still sit atop the relationship? You know, can they still can they still be seen with the same respect and love and admiration from their partner as they were before when they were a more domineering, more physical, more you know, type of person? And with Fisk shifting, I see these nuances between um between um with uh between D'Nofrio and uh what's her name again? Is there?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think so. I can't remember I have to Google it.
SPEAKER_01That's alright. I got I got IMDB open right now, just give me two seconds here. She's amazing, she's a great actress. Yeah, she's great. Yeah, I think it's Azair or Zayer, Isaiah um ILED Zur.
SPEAKER_02Maybe.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, I think that's it. Yeah, so there's all these little nuances in their performance that is painting this picture of their relationship basically hanging by a thread because he's not the man he used to be. And that was the man that she was initially attracted to.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Right? So he's trying to find this happy balance of what he thinks is best for him, but also what's going to continue to stoke the flames of that relationship to keep the passion and to keep the interest, but also, you know, trying to trying to balance the uh wanting to be the mayor, his political aspirations as well. Yeah. Um so I think that's what you know, I think that's I think this is gonna be one of the more interesting things to keep an eye on as the as the uh as the season progresses is what happens between Fisk and his wife. Um I wouldn't be shocked if there's some kind of some kind of plot from her as far as like taking him out or some sort of gesture of violence that brings him back to um to old Fisk. Like I kind of see that coming. I don't see it being telegraphed necessarily, but I pick up a lot, you know, I'm picking up on a lot of subtext that the relationship has changed dramatically because of the shift in dynamic, you know? And yeah, and I would put money on it that they're probably not even sleeping together right now. Yeah, and it's probably a very fractured relationship, and they don't feel like it's just not there anymore, you know, like right now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that separation at the breakfast table spoke volumes, you know, how far apart they were. And the I I am waiting for the inciting incident that's gonna force Fisk to choose to go back to the way he was, uh, or to keep trying to um, you know, play it straight. And and Vanessa's gonna do something that's gonna force his hand. So I'm definitely definitely predicting that. Um, another thing that I liked about this episode is there wasn't other than uh Matt sitting in the courtroom playing with the broken daredevil horn, there was nearly a daredevil scene in in this episode at all. It was all Matt uh and the courtroom drama. Uh, and I love that scene where he was sitting in there because it looked like a church, and him being Catholic has has that imagery there. He's walking in the empty courtroom, he's sitting and thinking about things, and it it was just a really great scene. Um what did you think of of the actual courtroom legalities of it all?
SPEAKER_01It was great. It was great. Um, I was kind of I was kind of shocked at so they were playing up like they were definitely leaning into all the cops that were in the gallery were there to intimidate this potential this potential witness, Torres or whatever's faces, right? But I like the fact that they weren't like all white guys, you know, because that yeah, you know, cause cause that'd have been a little too on the nose. That's a little too on the nose, right? So it was like literally like you know, it looked like it looked like a freshman class of a college. There was Asian guys, there was white guys, there was black guys, there was white women, there was black women, there was, you know, there was Hispanic women. There's just like it was just like all these cops are just they're filthy. Like they're all dirty. Like one of the guys that had to punish her to tattoo was an Asian dude.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I was like, okay, so they're just saying now that it's not just white cops that are bad, all cops are bad. Yeah. So A-C A B, right? Now, I don't I'm not somebody that subscribes to that idea. Cause I don't think that I don't think that you can have um I don't think that you can have an organization like the police and have everybody just be complete and utter poison. You know, I think that there's gotta be somebody. There's a surpico. There's always gonna be a serpico, right? And yeah, that's a 1970s film reference, and if you guys don't get it, you can Google it. But it's was it De Niro or Pacino?
SPEAKER_02Oh Pacino, I think.
SPEAKER_01It's Pacino, right? Yeah, yeah. Good movie. It's a good movie, but my point is this there's gotta be a Serpico, and there's gotta be a Serpico in this story, or it just gets heavy-handed and political instantaneously. There's gotta be a balance, there's gotta be a cop that plays into this story with Frank and with Matt and with everybody else. Like there's gotta be a good cop in this story at some point, otherwise, it just gets overly political because we're because we're already leaning very heavily into the political on this series, you know, with you know, with Fisk sort of being this Trump analog in like in the second Marvel project in a row. Like, we get it, Disney. You don't like Trump, we get it, you know, it's very clear to us right now. But let's not, you know, let's not let's not browbeat the fans. Like, we get it. It's a very, it's a very politically charged time right now. But like let's use some subtlety and some subtext and let's let's show all sides of the coin, right? So if they're gonna continue with the storyline, I gotta see a good cop. I gotta see a couple of good cops because I believe in good cops. Yeah, I don't I don't believe all cops are bad, you know what I mean? Um, so I'm hoping that they do sort of try and balance that out.
SPEAKER_02Um, I think there's gonna be there's there's gonna be that good cop in there. And I and I think the cops that are playing these this basically a gang of cops inside the organization, these are these are the ones that you know like peaked in high school and and want to be in charge, and you know, being a cop is the easiest way to to get it to get that kind of authority. So I I I exactly think the same way you are. I think we are gonna see some good cops because not not all of them are are gonna be like that. Um one thing that I liked in the the pre-courtroom scene was where Matt was talking to uh Hector in the jail cell, and he told that really great story of the frogs, uh the Kokwe tree frogs, and he whistled it. And then they yeah, and then they played it over the end credits. I'm like, am I tearing up at the end credits? My oh my gosh. Just the way they they bookended that was so nice and so just heartfelt, and and really a tribute to the actor that played him. And I I hate they were not gonna see him anymore because I thought he did a lot with a little. They there was not very much of White Tiger to be seen in in these first three episodes. Uh, but this episode was was centered around him and and rightfully so. Um such a great performance. Uh, I will say the courtroom scene though, Matt in this particular instance is kind of a horrible lawyer uh because he did three things that would have A, got him in front of the bar for an ethics uh hearing, or two, got him straight up disbarred. I mean, the the first one he went against his client's wishes. He went against Hector's wishes to not be revealed as the White Tiger. He introduced evidence improperly in court, and then he straight up lied to the judge and they pulled him into chambers. Like, you told me you not to do that, then you lied to me. I will not be made fun uh this courtroom will not be made a mockery of. Had had Hector been found guilty, he would have had a pretty good grounds for ineffective counsel on appeal. So, I mean, I I don't know if I want this version of Matt as my lawyer if I'm ever uh called to the stand for being a vigilante because I don't need a lawyer that's gonna go rogue on me in the courtroom and do stuff like that. But you know, real real suspension of disbelief. You gotta you gotta you know do that a little bit for dramatic effect. But I mean, I thought it was effective from a dramatic standpoint, but definitely would have been disbarred. I mean, so if you're watching this thinking, I want to be a lawyer because I want these Perry Mason moments. No, this, this, this ain't it. It's it's much more boring than that. Uh so but I I thought it was really really cool and really interesting. And with the the whole White Tiger, this version of White Tiger storyline, do we think that the sister takes up the mantle as she does in the comics? Or is this it? Or are we done?
SPEAKER_01Uh I don't know. I think we'll probably see, yeah, the female White Tiger. Yeah, whether we haven't met his sister. Um we saw his wife and we saw his niece. And the niece is way too young, I think. I'm pretty sure. Yeah, yeah. That yeah, that would not be, but let's come back to that because I want to talk about what you said about the Koki a little bit. Okay, sure. I love those little character nuance things that just get you know sewn into a character story. Like, I love that. That's why I love White Lotus. Like, the White Lotus is like, without a doubt, one of my favorite series right now. It's getting crazy. Yeah, Walton Goggins. Oh my god, dude, greatest actor on the planet. Yes. Like, we wasted him in Marvel, like they wasted him so bad. Oh, I know. Like, so bad. They could have found something way better for him, you know what I mean? But um, but yeah, he's fantastic. But, anyways, I love when they weave those little character nuances.
SPEAKER_02things, those little those little anecdotes, those little, you know, those little sort of uh analogies or or or uh yeah I just I just love that shit and glimpses into their background glimpses into their personal life just those little yeah windows into who they are that makes you that that endears you to that character and and in such again such a short period of time I I I loved seeing Hector uh on screen and and talking and and dialoguing with Matt Murdoch and just learning more about his character and I hate that we're not going to see that anymore.
SPEAKER_01Yeah yeah yeah me too and not only not only what you said but how they value like how they like how they value life like how they value the little things about life you know I've met so I've dated a lot of women in my life okay you don't need to brag dude come on now and there's been a lot of nuance between all of them and usually the ones that I fail to connect with are the ones that just can't find the narrative of the everyday life. Does that make sense? Yeah like the the joy in the present yeah the not only the joy in the present but like I'm a type of person where my inner monologue is my conversation like if I have a crazy idea I'm gonna tell you my crazy idea and I want your thoughts on it and I want to process that and I want to you know use that as feedback and I'm that type of person where like my inner monologue is my conversation and I get along best with those types of people where like it's like literally your life's a podcast. You're just kind of like spitting spitting spitting you know what I mean and listening intently to what other people are telling you. And I meet so many people where the extent of their conversation goes to like small talk like it never goes beyond that. They have no curiosity about aliens they have no curiosity about science they have no curiosity about music they have no curiosity about this. So when I get a little so so when so my point is when I get a little snippet like that from a character like something small like that you know and cultural like that like I really really love that kind of stuff. And it really colors the character really well for me and and I take a lot from that and I actually really fell in love with uh Hector Ayala's character a lot more than where I was at before yeah um and it was in that moment when that happened too yeah and he was clearly he was clearly on camera while he was sick because you know his physique his physique is definitely diminished from some of the photos that you've seen of him in the past right but but again rest in peace brother and uh amazing performance so thank you thank you thank you um but going to what you're saying about Matt in the courtroom yeah um if we brought a legal professional in to sit in a third chair and talk about this episode I'm sure they would tear him a new one. I love that stuff man but there's this law in TV and film called because the script demands it and once the script demands it the script is like the script in the writer is ex machina it's Deus Ex Machina right which we saw live live and you know in charge on She-Hulk which was like literally we're gonna write what's gonna happen and what we write is going to happen no matter whether it makes sense or not. But anyways it's because the script demands it and I get it but I think they did a good job of like it wasn't too much to ask as far as how much we had to suspend our disbelief to get through that scene.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_01Like they had they had the district attorney come back at him they had the judge come back at him a little bit um he probably could have been to Sparte yeah like let's be honest. Yeah like he definitely probably could have been to Spartan and you can't just and you can't just pull a mask out of a bag in a courtroom and expect that to be entered as evidence. Yeah like they would have shut like it would have missed like it would have been mistrial right from there.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely like they wouldn't have even gone into the chambers the judge would have just called a mistrial yep like right then and there right but it's because of script demands it so yeah and when uh the CI was on on the stand and he completely like flipped right he he saw the cops felt the pressure and completely changed his his thing I I was like Matt ask to ask to treat him as a hostile witness this is this is what you this is what a lawyer would do. He's a hostile witness now but I was kind of glad that after that and him and his partner were discussing it he's like oh we can recall him as a hostile witness I'm like oh cool so they they did have some legal realism in there fantastic but uh yeah in another life I feel like I could have been a lawyer but it's way too much studying um so I I just I I love that courtroom scene and and I'm getting everything I want out of Daredevil right now. I I wanted a courtroom drama and I got it. One thing though with this show is man it is moving at a clip. I I I really in a in a normal like 20 old timey 20 season episode long season right this could have gone on for three four episodes three four five episodes and and really dragged it out and and and pumped up the drama but when you only got nine episodes I mean this this is this moving at a clip. So I mean we got Wilson Fist becoming mayor in a half an episode we got Foggy and Karen gone in the first 15 minutes. I mean we are moving so I'm I'm really interested to see how much more they're gonna cram in the next or a third way third of the way through how much they're gonna cram in the next six episodes and how fast they're gonna do it.
SPEAKER_01Well see if they treat it if they treat it like a comic book right they treat it like a comic book and they give you one big solid huge satisfying moment at the end of the season that'll be enough right it's like homeland like I don't know if you ever watched homeland right okay so at the end of the season of home oh spoiler alert for anybody who's gonna watch homeland but it's an old show so I don't give a shit okay but at the end of the season they give you they give you the moment they give you somewhat close to the moment that you've been waiting for the entire season. Yeah and they walk you up to it like there's not really a lot of big big drops big reveals in the first season in the lead up to that into that season finale and Quentin Tarantino is actually talking about it um who who is he talking to oh he's talking to Rogan yeah he was like yeah he was on Rogan's show with his producing partner or his producing buddy and they were talking about like you know how to how do you deliver a really satisfying ending and he thinks the ending of homeland is very satisfying and I agree with him. I think the ending of homeland is fucking fantastically satisfying. So as long as they deliver something that is like above and beyond I'm trying to think of a Marvel moment where I just felt so satisfied. Oh when Wanda sacrifices herself in well in uh in uh multiverse of madness like I was not expecting that yeah and I wasn't expecting it to be like that where you know America America basically punches her into her multi in into the multiverse where her alternate is and use and and and the kids get to see how monstrous she's become you know in the pursuit of her children and she basically dies because she cannot stand the fact that her kids saw or she she takes her own life because she couldn't stand the way that her kids now looked at her for what she did.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So and the other satisfying part of that was that was basically Michael Waldron telling the audience like nobody in this movie could beat Wanda if they wanted to so she had to beat herself.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Like that's that's an incredibly satisfying ending for me. I know a lot of people I like I know it's a very controversial ending. I get that but if you watch the end of WandaVision it's not really that controversial at all. Right. But yeah if you give us an ending like that where you know Matt has some profound you know revelation or something deep or something crazy happens. But you know what you're talking about a clip I want to talk like you know they're going at a clip yeah they are like we've already lost two people yeah like there's already two people dead right yeah that's kind of crazy that's kind of crazy for sure.
SPEAKER_02This show is not afraid to kill people which I I think is kind of refreshing uh I I I think it's it's good that they they are sticking to what is good for the storyline in in this version of Daredevil and they're not afraid to kill people off um which which is fantastic. And when I was talking about moving at a clip I mean we still got to get Frank Castle reintroduced and into the storyline. We got to get Muse in here and and oh yeah and lead up to him Muse is a relatively new villain what 2016 introduced in the comics 2016 2017 not a whole lot of comic history for us to to kind of build upon so we we have to essentially introduce him to a whole new audience uh right and we only got six episodes to do it in so I'm just really interested to see how they're gonna build up Muse uh through these next six episodes because we haven't seen we've seen him once maybe twice if you believe that Muse was doing the graffiti in the first episode um but we've only seen him once in full face uh without the costume so I don't know yeah we'll see so were there any other scenes that stood out like any smaller scenes that you were like oh that's kind of cool or uh not really just the the tree frog scene and the courtroom scene I think were the two biggest ones for me uh because it's the the courtroom scene is definitely something I wanted to see I I hope I don't think we're gonna get any more because that's a pretty big one I I think if you do another courtroom scene with something else it just diminishes this one. So I I think we're gonna see Daredevil from here on out. I don't think we're gonna see Matt the lawyer we're gonna see Matt the vigilante uh from here on out uh and and you know I got my fix of the courtroom scene so let's let's go out and start breaking some bones.
SPEAKER_01Nice. Well I'm kind of shocked that you didn't bring up the cooking scene I'm gonna be honest.
SPEAKER_02Oh the blind cooking scene?
SPEAKER_01Yeah you have a cooking podcast. So that was interesting and the thing I found the most interesting about it was Matt was placing his hand over the pot when he opened it. Yeah and for and I'm wondering if that's just something that is a common thing for blind people in how they cook or whether Matt is specially equipped to do that because of his extrasensory perception.
SPEAKER_02Right. Like does he have a thermal like does his hand basically turn into a thermometer and he's like oh I've left it on the stove for this long at this temperature then good chances it's done you know like yeah I did see that and I thought it was really interesting and I'm really glad they didn't do an exposition dump of uh what's her what's the character's name again the therapist girlfriend going how are you cooking Heather Glenn Heather Glenn why how are you cooking while blind like I'm glad they didn't do that they just accepted it as this is what he can do this is what he does and she looks at it as normal doesn't look at anything weird about it and Matt's just a regular guy uh cooking for his girlfriend which I thought was really cool um because very easily somebody could have thrown uh a a lazier writer could have thrown in expedition exposition dump about how he's able to cook blind um but yeah I mean I would be interested to hear from um from the visually uh impaired audience how like how real is that because I I love this about TV shows I I love watching people talk about how how real is something um and and rating it on a scale for or for that right so I would love to hear if you're listening in the comments or something uh put it in there as like how is he how is he able to cook blind and and not you know because I I'm not blind I cook and I burn stuff all the time so I I really want to hear the the the skill behind that that would be kind of cool to to put on my own podcast actually now that you're giving me an idea that would be neat that would definitely be neat but yeah that one that scene definitely stood out a bit um and for me I just I I just really enjoyed how they were building suspense with the shell game when they were moving the witness around uh Torres or whatever his name is that was cool I really like that they were just using a lot of misdirection um do I think that I feel like it was almost like they were too reliant on the misdirection a little bit like it just kept happening and happening and happening and it just sort of became sort of formulaic at a point.
SPEAKER_01I didn't see the witness not testifying I thought that the witness was just going to testify and that would be it right yeah but you know the other thing I took away from this episode they could have done this as the first episode yeah they could have done they could have done episode two as number one and they could have done this one as the second one and then they could have killed Foggy in episode four or five or whatever or six because that actually probably would have made a lot more sense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah I think that's where the seams are showing when they did the reshoots when they reshot the pilot um and and this part right here I think everything I think they reshot the pilot and they reshot the final episode but everything in between pretty much stayed intact.
SPEAKER_01So you can kind of see like what you're saying I I think you see those seams uh a little bit of where the reshoot happened and where the original uh was filmed yeah no that's a good point but I think that um yeah but I think like I don't know I think it would have made total sense like you start episode two with this you know Hector Ayala killing this cop in self-defense against two rogue cops and the story is kind of off and running and I think it bleeds into the main story that they're going for anyways because a lot of people are saying that they don't even think that Muse is going to be the key villain in the series. They think it's gonna be the cops. The cops are going to be the key villain in the series it's leading that's what everybody's saying now if that is the case then they really killed Foggy for nothing. Like it doesn't really make a lot of sense um so I'm gonna raise I'm gonna raise a controversial issue I brought up in our WhatsApp chat but I want to talk about it a little bit. Alright so back in 2023 or yeah I think it was 2023 there was a rumor a rumor or some sort of some somebody's version of a conversation they had with somebody at Walt Disney where they basically said that there was an unofficial unpapered policy on having a 5050 cast 50 being white you know white actors and 50 being people of color and people from other marginalized groups so based on that one could argue that if they had kept Foggy and Karen in the main cast and they kept all of Fisk's people because all of basically all of Fisk all of Fisk's people are white except for that one woman right you could argue like it wouldn't be absurd like it wouldn't be absurd to argue that potentially Foggy may have been killed off because he kind of threw off that 50-50 balance and it could be argued that Karen has been sort of sidelined because she threw off that 50-50 balance well actually I don't know I don't think women play into that no it would be white men it would only be white men so 50 white men and 50 other marginalized groups women are in other marginalized groups so Karen wouldn't fall into that but it could be argued that you know like we talked about in the last episode we did Rich you were saying that this is Daredevil born again he's moving on these are his new friends this this is his new circle I get that okay um but nobody wanted that like if if you gave if you put up a poll now today and it was like who do you want to come back as a supporting cast for Matt Murdoch Foggy and Karen are going to be at the top of that list. Yeah right so I just I just look at that particular rumor and I say to myself and I also look at the other practices throughout Hollywood that I've seen that have been happening pretty consistently you know the Oscar saying like hey you know you have to have this percentage of this people in your cast and this percentage of this people on your crew and this percentage of people working in your creative team to be able to win an Oscar. Like these sort of mandated representation sort of bylaws like these things that are being put in place and I can't make any sense of Foggy being killed outside of that. Like it just doesn't like I said it just doesn't track for me. Now there's another thing that's going yeah actually you know what I'll get I'll get your feedback on that first and I'll go into something else. But what do you think?
SPEAKER_02I mean that's kind of a I think that's kind of a cynical way to look at it a little bit. I mean I don't I don't know if this is a factual thing or not. I mean it could have been maybe unwritten like you know nobody I don't think anybody's gonna put that on paper. I think it was unspoken. Yeah this unspoken paper that's why I said it's unpapered right yeah yeah yeah so oh sorry I thought you said it was on paper not unpapered unpapered yeah yeah so because you know Survivor is doing this the the reality show Survivor this new era survivor they made it a point to say 50% of the cast is going to be white 50% of the cast is going to be marginalized people of color and they've been following that so I I I can see that that playing into Disney because if if one does it probably a lot of others are are doing it unconsciously or consciously um but you know we kind of go back to the killing of Foggy and and the the shipping off of Karen to San Francisco to meet Ant-Man um as part of this 50-50 thing I maybe but I still feel like it played well into the story in into launching this new era of Daredevil. So like I said before had it been had it been lazier uh in terms of how they got rid of Foggy and um if if if it would have been like somehow Foggy and Karen are gone you know then then I I would be more apt to to believe that but they really made it a way to um integrate it into the story to for me that made sense to to drive Matt Murdoch's character forward. Okay no no that's a fair point that's definitely a fair point um what do you think about the rumor that foggy is not dead I mean I I I was reading some blogs and some YouTube videos about some joking things like the hand is gonna resurrect Foggy or something. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I think he's dead Matt hurt his heartbeat down to flatline um yeah but there's all kinds of like you know devices and shit that they've brought into comic books and movies where kill like it can slow your heartbeat down to basically nothing right like that's you know that all exists especially in the world of the hand like that's definitely a thing like I'm I'm pretty sure I remember that but I'm not talking about the hand resurrecting him I'm talking about the idea that he may be in witness protection.
SPEAKER_02I've heard that rumor that that could be uh but I'd have to but what would have precipitated that he wasn't I mean other than maybe some of the clients that they've worked with in the past but there was nothing in the show and even in the lat I don't even think in the last Netflix season that would have explained Foggy going into witness protection I'm trying to think because I don't remember right offhand of of him being in a case that would involve him going into witness protection.
SPEAKER_01Yeah see I agree with that there is no pretext there is no setup for that I get that part but there's also commitments for him to come back in season season two.
SPEAKER_02Right. I mean we could have like a Nick Fury thing where Nick Fury was supposedly dead um but he wasn't or it could be like they shipped him off to Tahiti you know like where they did uh Colson they shipped him off from yeah shipped him off to Tahiti where we're what was the tagline it's a beautiful place or something like that. And uh yeah Nick Fury has some some special uh things set up for Foggy uh in SHIELD I don't know but uh I mean maybe if he's if he's in season two it's either flashbacks or he's not dead so it's gotta be one or the other right yeah I don't yeah I don't know exactly how this is gonna play out um I mean that was a lot of blood on the concrete there was a lot of blood on the concrete but we didn't get but but but we didn't get to see a funeral well you saw evidence of a funeral you saw that uh Matt had the uh the program for the funeral in Braille in the second episode yeah so there was a funeral we just didn't we didn't see it but there was one whether it was open casket or closed casket we don't know yeah I saw that dude like that's definitely um that's definitely something to consider but the other part that I think is weird too is as Foggy's dying Matt is continuing his fight with Bullseye right so
SPEAKER_01Why didn't he try and actually try to do something to save him?
SPEAKER_02Say Foggy? I mean he's he's he's dodging he's dodging pool cues and and knives and he was he was kind of busy at the moment, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I guess I see that. Yeah, I guess I can agree with that, but at the same time, I don't know, man.
SPEAKER_02I think they were going up the stairs, meanwhile, Foggy was down on the bottom floor. So right. Yeah. So I don't think there was a moment in that fight where he could have done anything. And then he he I he was keeping tabs on Foggy though, with his heart listening to his heartbeat. And I think as long as he heard a heartbeat, there was hope until he didn't, and then Matt Matt cracked and threw bullseye off the roof.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so if I asked, okay, so so so if this was Las Vegas, this was Las Vegas, would you put any money on Foggy still being alive and being a part of this story?
SPEAKER_02No, I'm gonna say that it's gonna be flashbacks in season two.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so you wouldn't put any money on it?
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02No, because it would I mean, okay, we've seen a lot of resurrections that makes the death like not matter anymore. And and I don't feel like that this is it. I I feel like the death mattered, and if we see him come back to life in season two, then the whole point of that first episode, second episode of season one just means nothing. And and I don't I don't want that. I I want his death to mean something. So I'm I'm the the way that I feel like the showrunners are taking the show, I I think they're not afraid to kill people, and I I don't think they're afraid to keep them dead. So uh I'm I'm going with flashbacks in season two.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't think they're afraid to keep people dead either. You know, I definitely don't think that that's the case. But you know, I gotta yeah, man, like I don't know. Just with that like 50-50 thing, it creeps me out, and you know, I think that that played some role in and why they chose to do it this way. Um, and also this this this new born-again version of Matt Murdoch and this new born-again version of Daredevil, what you were saying in the last episode about him having to have this new cast of supporting characters. But if we go through the supporting characters around Matt, they do they all are basically people of color, the entire, the entire group of supporting characters, right? And the ones that have left are basically been all been all been white, which is kind of weird. Like that is like that should be signaling to people that there may be some merit to this 50-50 thing, right? Like it was said, yes, it's unofficial, yes, it's not on paper, because legally they couldn't put it on paper, but there are all kinds of different organizations within Hollywood that are enforcing this 50-50 thing, you know, these bylaws or these or these mandates where they have these representation style quotas. And I think that that might be something that played played a role into this decision to get rid of Foggy because the entire other cast of characters that came in to be Matt's supporting cast are all people of color. And Krista McDuffie, Krista McDuffie in the comics, she's a white woman, so they race swapped a character within this new circle. So I don't know. I just think that merits some thought, you know, it just merits some exploration. Plus, we're dealing with fucking Disney, so you can't really put anything past them. Yeah, you can't really put anything past them. Um, and it's happening in Hollywood, like let's just be honest with each other. There's a lot of people that have lost jobs just because they're white. There's a lot of people that have been passed up for roles just because they're white. A lot of guys, a lot of male, male white guys in in the industry have been passed up for roles just because they're male and white. So I don't know, man. I I just think it merits conversation, but anyways, um, so yeah, so let's uh you know that's pretty much a wrap on you know this episode, I think. What about predictions? Let's talk about what we think for next episode. What are you expecting?
SPEAKER_02Uh I'm expecting Punisher next episode for sure. Um and I don't want to predict that we're gonna get a new white tiger, but I I feel like it could. I mean, you you we might see a new white tiger by season's end. You you may not see it right away, but I'm I'm gonna picture a hand reaching into that uh bin with under the bed and grabbing that under the bed and grabbing that amulet, and it's gonna be, you know, it's it's gotta be the family, it's gotta be a family member. So it's either gonna be, you know, uh it's gotta be a sister coming into town, or I don't think it's gonna be the wife, don't think it's gonna be the niece, but I think we're gonna see a new White Tiger by by season's end. Punisher for sure. Um, I think we'll see Muse uh episode, I'm gonna guess episode five. Because I think I think we got a lot of Punisher things we gotta start ramping up into. We got the corrupt cops, we got the Punisher logo being co-opted by these by these corrupt cops, and we gotta set that straight with Frank. So that's gonna be set up in in episode or at this pace, could be resolved by the end of episode four. Uh, and then we might see Muse in episode five.
SPEAKER_01Okay, let's talk about that too. Um so you know, you mentioned the costume, the uh the White Tiger costume.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Again, another instance of because the script demanded it, because it had to be found for this story, sure, this this story beat to happen. And even Sherry comes out and says, look what I found, or something to that extent, you know. Yeah. And the guy staying with his sister and he just hides it under his bed, that that doesn't that doesn't track for me. Yeah, that's that's really ham-fisted if I think about it. That's yeah, that's really bad.
SPEAKER_02I mean you put it, you put it under some false uh you know, floorboards or something. Yeah, I get it. It's New York, you're gonna lose your deposit on your apartment, but you're gonna hide it a little bit better than under the bed. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like you need to get a little bit more crafty about where you're gonna hide your fucking vigilante outfit when you're staying with your sister. Like, wait till she goes out to yoga, pull up a floorboard, hide it, you know, fucking hollow out something. I don't know. Like get like a I don't know, get something. Get something like dude, get a fucking pelican case with a lock on it, like shit. Like that's really all you need, right? Is like a pelican case with a lock on it. Yeah, so yeah, so because the script demanded it, that costume had to be found and it had to be in the stupidest place of all time. Like, if there was an award for the stupidest place to hide your fucking vigilante outfit, White Tiger definitely wins under a bed in your sister's house where you don't even live.
SPEAKER_02And how he wasn't found out to be White Tiger before then is a miracle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely, dude. Absolutely a fucking miracle. Absolutely. But yeah, um, so you were saying about Punisher, yeah. Yeah, so you think he's coming back? Oh, I think. But you were talking about, yeah, yeah, but um, but you but you think in this next episode he's coming back.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and how how do you think he's gonna fit in? It's just Matt Matt's gonna obviously go to him after this guy in a yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, because they showed it in the in the previews where I don't know, it looks like they're in some sort of locker room or something, and Frank basically throws a knife or a hatchet at him. Um, so it's either the beginnings of a fight or the end of a fight, I don't know. Um, but Matt's gonna demand that Castle do something because these corrupt cops are co-opting his image. Uh and and Frank can't sit on the sidelines uh and and let that happen. Frank Frank is kind of indifferent to cops, uh, I think historically in the comics. He he he hates corrupt cops for sure. Um, I think that the the group he reveres uh for sure is is those that are that have served in the military. That's why Captain America is his his hero. Um but he definitely hates corrupt cops. So I don't think Frank's gonna sit on the sidelines and let let this happen uh in his name, essentially.
SPEAKER_01No, I don't think he's gonna let that happen either. I think he's gonna take a pretty freaking active role. Um it goes against his code, like it goes against his code and it goes against who he is. Like that's not the way he would do things, right? Like he's he he wants to punish criminals, right? And he probably sees corrupt cru he probably sees corrupt cops as criminals, right? That's probably the only way that he sees them. So yeah, I definitely think that's gonna happen for sure.
SPEAKER_02And it's gotta be pretty quick after that ending of see of this episode. So I it's gotta be the next episode, it's gotta be episode four.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I would say that too. Now, is Mac gonna get back into costume, or are we just gonna see him with that red balaclava on his head trying to fight people? No, we're we're gonna see him back in costume. It's it's gonna happen pretty soon.
SPEAKER_02For this episode, for this next one? Oh man, well, I don't know about four. Um, but by the time Muse comes out, he's gonna put the he's gonna put the cowl back on, you know. So it's it's it's gonna happen. I don't know about next episode.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think once Muse comes back, yeah. I think once Muse is in the mix, it's gonna it's gonna get pretty amped. But I think also Matt is going to um reply to this to this killing of Hector in a very visceral way. Yeah. Because I think while he was defending Hector, I think he saw a lot of himself and a lot of his own experience in Hector, like that conversation that him and Hector had as he was talking about like you don't need to do it in a mask, you don't like they were talking about their different versions of how they help the world, right? Matt's conflicted because he used to do that and he felt good about doing it, and now he's this new version of himself where he's trying to talk to somebody who's still currently doing it. So there's a lot of there's a lot of inner turmoil for Matt, I think, as he's having these conversations with Hector about how he does it and what he wants to do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because he was talking to Hector's like he can do it without the master because that's what Matt's trying to do so hard. He's trying to not be Daredevil and affect change in the right way. Um whereas on the other side of that coin, White Tiger's like, this is who I am. You might as well ask me not to breathe. And at one point, that's what Matt Murdoch was. He was he was Daredevil, he could not not be Daredevil. Um, but with the death of Foggy, he's trying to do something different. And he's basically telling Hector, you know, follow my example. You don't have to be White Tiger to to make change, but then we're gonna see that now you gotta put the mask on, you gotta go out and and do what's right, essentially, is what White Tiger says, what Hector says. I it it's just I have to do what's right outside of the limitations of the law.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I had an epiphany. Matt's reveal with the mask in the courtroom. He must have been planning it because he had witnesses that were saved by White Tiger.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So he must have been planning it. He must have been planning it the entire time. Right. Meaning that, like, even if like, but like, did he have them in his back pocket in case that, you know, in case Torres didn't cop to the whole thing, or was his plan the entire time to reveal that Hector is White Tiger? And like what do you think, like, what do you think the scenario was?
SPEAKER_02I I gotta think he was thinking both sides because Torres was was gonna be notoriously unreliable. Like he almost, you know, couldn't make it to court, and you know, we they had to give him a little a little piece of cook some cocaine there just to keep him stable. So I I think he had that in his bag as a Hail Mary, uh, in case things went sideways and it did. So that that's the signs of a well-prepared lawyer, um, although he didn't execute it you know properly, according to the law. But uh he I think he had it just in case. And the one thing that was a little bit confusing was it it was almost they were interspersing the character testimony and the closing arguments, because I was kind of like, why are they doing the closing arguments and then they're doing testimony? It was it was it was a little bit of a whiplash for me until I realized, oh, okay, they're they're kind of having everybody talk at different times of the courtroom procedure, which was a little jarring for me. Um, so but yeah, I I think he was having that as uh as a Hail Mary.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha. Yeah, I I I I kind of feel the same way. Um, but yeah. So, anyways, uh great episode, great chat. Thanks, buddy. Really enjoyed episode three, thought it was fantastic. I am looking forward to episode four. Um, I think it's gonna be really great. And yeah, I definitely think that episode three redeemed episode two and one as clumsy and as as uh as ham fisted as those were. Um but yeah, I'm I'm uh I think I think the one thing that's standing out to me that I miss the most about the Netflix series is these long scene chewing dialogues. Like I miss that. Like I don't like I'm not getting any of that just yet. Like I think the longest dialogue scene was between Matt and Hector, yeah where they were just sort of having that chat. Um, I hope we get a lot more like that. Like I like like I do want I do want to see another part two of Frank and Matt, like, you know, where they're just kind of stuck somewhere together and they're talking. Yeah, like I just love John Bernthal and I love Charlie Cox, and they're both amazing actors. So I do want to see them chew up some scenery. I do want to see that. Um, but we'll see what happens, I guess. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Cool. Well, thanks guys for joining us for this uh for this episode of Meanwhile Back on the podcast. We hope you enjoyed it. We'll be back to review episode uh four uh the day after, uh potentially maybe the night of, but uh, you know, keep an eye up on our Twitter and all our other socials for any announcements of that. And uh thank you so much for joining us. I've been Frank McGuire. This is Rich Rera, and I'll be in my Deadpool shirt next week, so you definitely want to tune in for that. Alright, cool. Well, thank you guys so much. Take care. Peace. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. And if you feel so inclined, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Podcaster, Stitcher, or Spotify. And as much as we appreciate the reviews, the best way to support the show is to tell your friends and family about Meanwhile back on the podcast. Hashtag spread the nerd. To stay up to date on all things meanwhile, head over to solo.to forward slash meanwhile pod. There you can sign up for our newsletter, follow us on all your favorite social media platforms, and find the newest and latest episodes, contests, and giveaways.
