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Court Of Lore
Daredevil: Born Again After Show - Ep. 4 - (Ep. 153)
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Coming up on this episode of Meanwhile Back on the Podcast, it’s our Daredevil: Born Again Episode 4 breakdown! Matt smacks Frank down—‘Quit poking the devil, Castle!’—as the Punisher prods his breaking point. Muse paints the town red, literally, while Fisk suffers ‘We Built This City’ with a caged ex as his encore. Is this savage showdown a knockout or just some Fiddle Faddle? Rich, Brad, and Frank are carving it up.
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Coming up on this episode, and meanwhile, it's our Daredevil Born Again episode 4. We have max max breakdown as the Punisher promises breaking point. New paint the town red literally will fix the first rebuild the city with a case tax as it's on for is this time to show down a knockout or just a whole bunch of fiddle final hit music. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Meanwhile Back on the Podcast. To note, my camera is not working uh right now, so there is no video feed from me during this episode. It's okay. If anybody wants to see what I look like, I'm happy to send them a photo, but no nudes, okay? I'm not sending you nudes. That's not happening.
SPEAKER_01Man.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right? Click here for OnlyFans. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. OnlyFans for podcasters. That's that's that's the way to go. Um, but yeah, guys, listen, thank you, thank you for joining us. Uh, we're very excited to talk about this episode at Daredevil. Uh, we will be back on again after this episode. We've got just a sort of scrum episode that we're gonna do. Uh a new format that we're kind of playing with. Uh, but we got a lot of cool stuff to talk about. But let's not waste any time. This is the episode four recap for Daredevil, uh breakdown for episode four of Daredevil. And there's quite a lot to talk about. Quite a lot to talk about. The Punisher's back. We finally get to see Muse. He's drained the blood out of people, probably using it for his art. That's my theory. Um and I think things are gonna get pretty fucking weird. Um, also, the apartment that I was making fun of in the first episode has clearly taking a nod from the comics, and it has like this little secret room on the roof where Daredevil keeps his shit, and there's probably like some training gear up there and stuff, which is kind of dope. Um, and that last scene with him in the Billy Club, that was fun to watch. I really enjoyed that. But listen, let's get into it. So, initial thoughts of the episode. Let's start with my man Rich. So, before we start, as promised, Frank, Dead Pooh. That's great.
SPEAKER_02Dead Pooh.
SPEAKER_03That's great.
SPEAKER_02Laugh if you will, but it's my favorite shirt.
SPEAKER_03I'm laughing. I I I just want to make sure that we don't derail the episode with making fun of your shirt right now.
SPEAKER_02So didn't want to break my promise to you. So, okay. So my my first impressions, love the episode. Um, again, not a whole lot of daredevil until the very end. Um, but we're gonna see him in the next episode. I'm I'm sure of it. A lot of great dialogues uh in this one. The the dialogue between him and I forgot what that uh guy's name that was stealing the fiddle faddle, but great dialogue there, and of course, Punisher uh between him and Frank. Bradford. His name, his last name is Bradford, I think. Yeah. Um just just a great uh dialogue talking about kind of the system and uh how how it can really screw with you, um, the legal system if you if you can't afford a good attorney, right? Uh and then the dialogue between Frank and uh and Matt. Uh just so good. I got a lot to say about that. Um, and then you know, the slow drip of Muse. I mean, pun intended drip. Uh the slow drip of Muse. Uh, you know, uh great to see him and hope to see a lot more of them in the next what do we got? Three, four more episodes, three more, five more episodes left. So, because we're in nine episodes, not a lot, not a lot left. So we gotta see what Muse can do.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. Brad, your initial thoughts, pal.
SPEAKER_01Oh, Rich, I guess we need to go. All right, sorry, that's my bad poo impression. Okay, uh, I did not like it. I loved it. This episode was so freaking good. Okay, it was everything that I wanted. And this, I mean, we didn't get to see the Punisher Skull on Frank, but we will. We didn't get to see Matt back in the in the Daredevil outfit, but like we're just saying, it's coming. I I thought this was a brilliant episode. It's this this season feels like it's just progressing, progressing. Words are tough today, in the right direction for me. Um I liked Muse when we show him, the just the little bit that we're gonna get, and just kind of like, hey, I'm I'm here, I'm doing things. You had, you know, like Muse is the the author of the the murals that we're seeing. Um you have the the BB thing, the BB going around and uh the the kind of kingpin uh takedown, you going after the misinformation type of thing. They're doing or they're making very, very many smart decisions with all the chess pieces that are on the board. They're setting it up perfectly. The you from what from when we did our our episode about our expectations of Daredevil, I think this is like one of the things that I wanted to see the most. I wanted to see some courtroom drama with Matt. And we're getting that, we're getting his lawyer side and his fight between like, yeah, I gotta be the fancy lawyer so I can be Daredevil. And now more than ever, he wants to be Daredevil, and that's you know, he must be born again as Daredevil. So um, yeah, man, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I watched it twice. I it was awesome both times. Um man, I I can't think of anything bad I want to say about it right now.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Um, I overall think it was a good episode. There's a couple of things that I'm gonna be kind of stickler on. Um that thing with the Bradford guy and the fiddle fat, by the way, how much did fiddle faddle pay for their name to be in that episode? Man, that's a lot. I want to see those numbers. I want to see those numbers. How many times did they say fiddle faddle? And how many times did they say the flavor? Like that is definitely product positioning because they wouldn't be able to use the name if somebody didn't pay for it. Man, TV shows are expensive to make these days. You gotta get that corporate product placement in there. It's true, it's true. I totally agree with you there. But I didn't maybe, maybe this, maybe him meeting this character is going in a direction, kind of like maybe he's Turk, like in this new born-again style of Daredevil. Um maybe he plays some sort of role, some like he has some material value to Matt within the context of the story or to the story itself. But I just didn't see the point of some of the choices that they made in this episode, that being one of them. And also uh we built this city twice. Those kids singing we built this city was without a doubt one of the most annoying things I've ever had to sit through. Um we were all Wilson. Sorry? Yeah, exactly. Like, why did they let them do the entire song? Like, sure, sing a little bit of it and then cut to the next scene. Like, why do we have to sit there and watch them sing that entire song? That didn't really make a lot of sense for me.
SPEAKER_02It was to show kind of distracted it was to show the pain of Wilson Fisk having to do things the right way. Like he he hates making these appearances, he hates all the red tape, especially when that scene where you're looking at the model, that little model of Red Hook of what he wants to do, and then describing of all the bureaucracy he has to go through. So uh having that scene last as long as it did was to give us the same discomfort as Wilson Fisk was having at that moment. Um, and then especially having to hear it again on Latvia Heritage Day in a different language. He's like, this is this episode was all about progression. It was a the progression of Matt putting the Daredevil suit back on because the system is failing in so many ways. Um and he he's trying to turn a corner and trust in the system because as Daredevil, he failed. He failed because Foggy died. And he said, if I can't fix things as Daredevil, then I'm gonna go fix things as Matt Murdoch, the lawyer. And as we progress through this episode, that first conversation with Bradford about the fiddle faddle was talking about how the system fails. And then finally, that other conversation with the Punisher with Frank was saying, You're not doing enough. You got to put the suit back on. I don't have time for your hero crap. I'm gonna get things done. And then at the very end, we see him training again with the Billy Clubs. He's it's he's opening that back up. It's almost like John Wick cracking the concrete floor and pulling out his old identity, not wanting to put that back on, but is having to because of the way the system has constantly failed um so far in this season. So the we built the city, as cringy as it was, I've never identified more with Wilson Fist than in that moment because I hated I hated watching it for the same reasons he hated watching it. I I could not stand it, especially when he gets up and goes, Oh, we're gonna sing another number. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm good. Thank you. Uh so yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's that's some pretty apt analysis, Rich. I think you deserve some applause for that one. That was no, seriously, I'm I'm I'm I'm not being sarcastic because as you were putting those pieces together, I started to kind of see something else there too. They were mirroring Fisk and Daredevil's or Fisk and and and Matt's experiences.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_03And I feel like that's something that they've been doing consistently, and that's why the poster art has them split in half, with one of them looking into the light and one of them looking into that dark red sea. Um that's interesting because yeah, so I get what you're saying now. So Fisk wants to just get shit done, he wants to do what he wants to do with that plan that he has for the, you know, for the uh for the waterfront, and he has to go through the bullshit bureaucracy of going to these vents and sitting and having people sing fucking stupid songs at him when he just wants to go out and get the job done. Like he's just not used to this. He's not used to the uh pomp and and circumstance of this. When he was a gangster, it was just like you either get shit done or you don't get it done. Um that's interesting. That's yeah, that's really good analysis, Rush. Thank you. That that that helps me appreciate it a little bit more. I didn't I don't know why I didn't see the mirroring. I think I think I'm still I think I'm kind of still kind of reactionary with Marvel. I need to kind of get back into a place where I start to trust them again. Because every time I see them fuck something up, I I I don't know. I just can't hold back from it. You know, I'm just getting kind of I'm I'm getting tired of being disappointed, you know? You gotta live in the moment, Frank.
SPEAKER_02Just just watch the show in for itself, outside of every all the political machination that's going around Marvel. Just watch the show and and enjoy it for what it is, you know.
SPEAKER_03I hear you, but but you gotta understand I look at these things from the point of view as a producer and a writer, too, right? So I'm always looking for craft. And if I don't see top end craft, then that's what really kind of gets to me because I want to see somebody who could do a better job do that job if that person's not doing the job. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Um, so I kind of look at it through a bunch of different lenses. But I think that this is what makes this show, our show, so unique is that we've got a you know, multitude of perspectives where you're just a fan, I'm kind of involved in the industry and I've kind of been in marketing for 15 years, and I understand messaging and all this other shit and branding and all this other stuff. And Brad works in the fucking theater industry, so we've got like a lot of really cool perspectives to kind of look at this from. This is great. Uh, so I appreciate that. Um awesome. Okay, so um that's an interesting point. So yeah, so let me give you my thoughts beyond that on this episode. The dialogue scene, the dialogue scenes were fantastic. Even the one with um, what's his name again? The fiddle fatal guy Bradford. The one like the like even that scene was fantastic. Uh, I like how they really dug into the system and really kind of got granular with it. Uh they got really detailed about it, uh, and they really gave the audience an opportunity to walk in the shoes of somebody who's in that position. The system is definitely set up to continue to put people in a position to fail. It's not set up to extricate them from the situations that they're in. It's almost set up to sort of double down on where they're already at. Um so that's interesting. A lot of countries do it differently, uh, but the United States and Canada definitely don't do it that way. Um, so that's interesting to see. And also, I really love the scene with um with Fisk and his wife and Dr. Glenn. I thought that was fantastic. I thought that was a great scene. The performances across the board were amazing in this episode. Like that's what really stood out to me in this episode. Um the one thing I couldn't square was the bullet casing that Matt found in the storm drain. And the reason that is, is because that bullet casing would have never ended up in that storm drain. It's not heavy enough to roll that far, and it's not heavy enough to to to roll over the the the terrain that that that that bottle was. Like you hear the bottle and the bottle's like jumping as it's moving, right? So which means that any of the grooves in that pavement are far too high for that bullet casing to make it over of. And it doesn't it doesn't weigh anything, so there's nothing to really make it get there. I get it, you know, for the script, you know, because of the script. Let's do let's just get it done. Maybe it was a really steep hill. Sorry? I said maybe it was a really steep hill. It it was a steep hill, but I'm saying that the casing doesn't weigh enough for it to get down there. It just, it just, it just doesn't. It doesn't the casing just doesn't weigh enough, unfortunately. But um but yeah, but I thought it was clever. I thought that the bottle trick that Matt used to sort of get a sense of where that direction, like where something rolling downhill would go, that was very clever. I thought that was super clever, and I really enjoyed that.
SPEAKER_02The Dolly zoom was really good too.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. The like the cinematography on these episodes has been fantastic. Um, you know, I want the coloring of the Netflix series, but I'm getting used to it, so you know, it's fine. But yeah, it's been great. So I I really enjoyed this episode. Um, I enjoyed it more now that Rich has sort of explained kind of what I was missing. So thank you, Rich. That's awesome. Um, but yeah, let's get a little bit more granular about some of the things. So Punisher's back. He is still working, doing his thing. We don't know who he's going after, we don't know who his target is. Um, how is he still operating? That's what I want to know. Because he's a vigilante and he uses guns. So I'm just kind of curious how he's still kind of out there and doing his thing. Uh that would be interesting to kind of look at. And um yeah, Matt um Matt's in an interesting place in this episode. He's seeing everything, you know, he you know, he he chose a direction after Foggy died that he thought made more sense than what he was doing. And now he's finding out that the system is just as broken as the street, as his direction beforehand. So he's kind of looking at himself and saying, like, I really don't have any good options here. They're kind of all bad options, so how do I do this? And he's also kind of teetering on the precipice of bro breaking his own moral code at some point. Do you guys get that feeling too? Yes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Oh, so go ahead, Brad. Oh, I was just gonna say, yeah, I think that's the whole purpose of Born Again, is that he's gotta re-evaluate where he was and what he needs to do. And I think that is one of the things he's looking at. Okay, yeah, I may have failed and I'm gonna have to bring it back, but how do I succeed in the merge of the two? Like, how do I do how do I honor Foggy and how do I be, you know, badass street level vigilante superhero? You know, so um, is he gonna be the same as he was before? No, because he's born again. But is he gonna be more awesome? Yeah, because that's the name of the show, and they want to make money.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the Rich thoughts, yeah. The dialogue between Frank and Matt um was so pivotal because, and this is why I said when we talked about the first episode, this is why Foggy had to die for this series. His death mattered, and this scene paid that off because in in the time frame that passed in the year, Matt never grieved Foggy. He always felt that Foggy's death, he's he has felt that Foggy's death was his fault. That's why he hung up the cowl. Um, but this this uh dose of splash of cold water from Frank made him grieve Foggy. He hasn't said his name but twice in the entire three episodes or four episodes that we've seen. Couldn't even name him. Uh so he he was feeling responsible for his death. And then Frank is like, look, the system, the system failed because uh bullseye is breathing the same air as you. He may have life, but does Foggy have life? And so that was what was needed for Frank to snap or for uh Matt to snap out of it and go, Hell's Kitchen, New York needs Daredevil because I'm trying to live this life that is worthy of Foggy, but I'm denying a piece of myself while doing it. And all these things I'm seeing, like with White Tiger, that this the system failed because he was exonerated for killing those cops, only for the cops to turn around and kill him. And then with with Bradford, with his situation, you know, feeling like he had to steal fiddle faddle because, you know, he he needed something to eat, and the system's gonna give him, you know, even if it was a week in jail, which is much more than how much that fiddle foul would have cost, on top of that, the cops were eating it as they were arresting him. I mean, the it's it's just corruption all around. Um, and also proves that anyone is capable of anything given the appropriate circumstances and triggers. Um, so his circumstances was he was hungry and he needed something to eat. So the system failed him in in both of those senses. And then now, as a lawyer, you know, Matt's like, I I I'm not doing enough. So Frank had to bring him back to reality and say, Well, what are you doing? You know, what are you doing to make things better? Um, and then Frank, as far as I don't know if he has been operating as Punisher because he's got that beard, he he's looking, he's looking like he's looking rough. So, I mean, he always looked rough, but he's looking unshaven, he's looking like he's been in that basement for a minute. So I don't know if he has been operating other than just researching whatever's on his uh conspiracy wall behind him. Um, but yeah, such a pivotal, pivotal turning point and uh for Matt in this um in this series to to realize now that he can't just be Matt the lawyer, he's gotta be both. He's gotta be Matt the lawyer to combat things on the inside, but also to what White Tiger said to do what's right when the system fails.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Good point.
SPEAKER_01That slap.
SPEAKER_03Excellent point. That slap, man.
SPEAKER_01That slap was my favorite part of the entire episode. When he's like, Are you slap? He you freaking slapped Frank and was like, sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And he's like, What the fuck for, man? Like, this is the most honest you've been since you've been here. Yeah, that was that was that gave me a little bit of ocular perspiration. I'm like, damn.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but the line, but the line choices were so were so good and so well thought out, too. Like the dialogue choices and the performances from Burndhal was just so powerful. Honestly, I think Burnthal's one of the one of the best actors on the planet right now. Like he's oh yeah, he's so good. He's so good. And I don't know if you guys know this, but he studied in Russia. That's where he studied acting.
SPEAKER_01I actually just heard I just heard that today, actually.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he studied, he started acting in R yeah, he started acting in Russia. But yeah, when he says, when he says did foggy get life, like that was just holy shit. You know, bullsey's walking around, you know, bull, you know, what's bullseye doing, you know, going down to the mess, like just you know, it was so good, so good. And the emotion that Charlie Cox found in that moment to really make it as visceral for the audience as it was for him or you know, as it was for like we felt we felt Foggy's loss again in that moment. Yep. You know? And yeah, no, like your point about Foggy had to die to get to this to get to this highly value valuable moment in the story. That's that makes sense to me now. Like Foggy's death feels a lot less pointless based on the scene that we got where Matt is finally grieving it and feeling it and you can see it land on him. And yeah, like up till now Matt in Born Again has been more or less been in denial of kind of everything. You know, he's got this new apartment, he's got this new job and he thinks everything's just gonna be just fine. But what he's discovering is that no matter where he goes or no matter what he does the system isn't gonna fix itself. The street's not gonna fix itself. Crime isn't gonna fix itself. Murder isn't like murderers aren't going to fix themselves. They're not just gonna stop being murderers. Like there's gotta be there's gotta be another measure in place. I think he's finally getting to a place where he he's saying to himself I need to be both people like he just needs to lead this dual life. And Muse is just going to make that even more prevalent once Muse comes on the scene and they start figuring out what he's doing because the gruesomeness of what he's doing is going to is going to transcend everything you know bullseye is a murderer. Like he just shoots and kills people with knives and whatever he can get his hands on. Muse is a monster it's a whole different fucking story he's a serial killer right so things are going to get very different there for sure. What else in that like is there anything else in that scene that we should kind of unpack I think we're good.
SPEAKER_01I think we hit the Frank Frank and Matt you know just the way that way that he was simply calling him red just like he saw him like red.
SPEAKER_03What's up I love when he calls him red yeah like yeah that's awesome. I'm actually thinking about naming my dog red now when I get a dog I think I'm just gonna name him red. Yeah but he won't be red but yeah um I kind of almost want us want Frank to see Daredevil in the yellow outfit now and make fun of him and just be like what the fuck is this shit?
SPEAKER_01Like no go put something else on.
SPEAKER_03Totally totally and he should have and he should have my rationale behind it. You can't call yourself a devil and wear yellow doesn't make any sense. Yeah red makes sense that that that would be that would be funny. Frank Frank's reaction to finding out that somebody was using his shit though using his his his you know his flag was waving his flag was not what I expected. Yeah he kind of brushed it he totally brushed it on yeah I expected him to fucking rage out and be like somebody's killing people in my name somebody's killing people with my colors like I was expecting him to get want to get highly involved but he's totally just being dismissive about why he's just focused on whatever's on that wall he doesn't care about anything else going on he's a he in the military he's from the military so he's a mission minded person so he's I don't I don't I didn't see what was on that back wall it's all kind of blurry but he's he's planning something we don't know what it is. Maybe it's going to be in that spin-off uh series that he just that uh that they just signed up on oh right on Marvel so we'll see could be um but no like I think that's out of character for him even if he is on a mission I think I think somebody using his colors to kill people I think that that would be like a just a deal breaker for him like that would just be like an automatic top of my murder list like whoever you are I'm gonna find you I'm gonna fucking put a bullet in your brain and this is gonna be over very very quickly I that's what I was expecting and we didn't get that so I kind of feel like it's a little bit out of character for him. Would anybody else agree with that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah I agree.
SPEAKER_03Yeah I was ex I was expecting more of a rage out moment and was surprised that he that he didn't uh yeah so uh yeah I was surprised that he didn't he was just kind of like yeah yeah and the trailer we should talk about this the trailer was a total misdirect it wasn't a fight between Punisher and Matt it was just Punisher somebody sneaking into his lair and him reacting to it but kudos on the misleading edit on the trailer because it looked like he was going after Matt with an axe.
SPEAKER_02So but he wasn't he was just he was he did he didn't know who it was um he kind of looked out of it out of it too a little bit eh like he's definitely been he's definitely he's definitely in a really dark place right now Frank is yeah that's why I was saying I don't think he's been operating as Punisher for a while he's he's he's been planning something but um yeah because he looked disheveled he looked a little out of it uh he didn't look quite ready for prime time uh to jump in the streets and team up with Daredevil to to clean clean up uh so yeah and talking about his family as well yeah yeah that was the yeah yeah that part where he was like do you hear his voice it's like do you hear his voice I was like oh shit where whoa this is this is gonna get dark real fucking quick yep he's like I hear he's like I hear my boy's voice all the time all the time get him daddy get him get him all such such a good actor oh my gosh and and that delivery of of that particular line was so gut wrenching it made me it made me think of you know hit his past Punisher series on Netflix and and kind of replayed that in my mind I was like oh my gosh he's been living with that guilt that guilt that Matt has only experienced for a short time Punisher has has still kept in him as the fire that burns within him and and the rage that keeps him going um and and Matt's just getting a taste of it now.
SPEAKER_01Just reminding all of us who the Punisher is and that there is a reason why he is the way that he is he's not just a you know a stone cold killer.
SPEAKER_03He is a stone cold killer but like there there he's got his own reasons to be the you know absolutely absolutely did anybody see any of Shane's idiosyncrasies from Walking Dead in this performance I saw I saw a couple things like the head nods you know the little the little head shakes he does like as he's talking that's very Shane from Walking Dead very Shane from Walking Dead and Shane and Shane and Shane and Frank are almost interchangeable as far as like their code you know like Shane well actually no the Punisher wouldn't leave anybody to die he would definitely he would definitely save some save some people in the zombie apocalypse Shane is kind of a piece of shit but yeah that's true.
SPEAKER_01Were you guys walking dead fans?
SPEAKER_02Yes uh I it's been a while I'm not as big of a fan of the new series that they keep on coming out with um I couldn't get into the the ones who lived I couldn't really get into man any of them really so I kind of stopped around season nine I think um it got a little long in the tooth for me um I did watch Fear of the Walking Dead that was pretty good but then the spin-offs are just like nonstop I can't keep up um but they're all in my Netflix queue uh I I do want to watch them um but I I I still haven't finished I'm trying to like Star Wars I'm trying to watch them in chronological order now that there's so many spin-offs because Fear of the Walking Dead and Walking Dead kind of interchange they're they're in the same timeline one kind of catches up with the other so I wanted to watch them in chronological order. So I'm in season nine of Walking Dead and then I got to jump back to Fear of the Walking Dead and then finish it out.
SPEAKER_03Right. I'm a completist what can I tell you gotcha um did you guys hear that um Bernthal when he first saw the first version of the script he almost he was of the mind that he wasn't going to participate in the project. I did read that we saw the first version yeah apparently it was just a little like he felt like it was way too out of character for Frank like he like this you know the old version the the deck the halls guys version of the show he was see that's the other thing you bring in the deck the halls guy for a show that the Punisher's gonna be in like that doesn't make yeah that doesn't make any sense to me at all like as soon as you put the Punisher into a show you gotta find somebody that's gonna honor that character because he's so if you mischaracterize that character your show's dead like it's dead in the water like can you imagine like turning him into like having him joking around about anything? No no absolutely not he doesn't have he doesn't have he doesn't have a fucking sense of humor. No he jokes on accident yeah if he's yeah if he says anything it's just kind of like sort of witty exchange it's not like funny shit you know yeah interesting um let's talk about uh the marriage counseling scene with dr glenn so fisk or Mrs Fisk Vanessa had an affair with an artist and as she was talking about it I gotta say Wilson Wilson looked pretty pretty controlled. I was like as she was talking about it I was like okay he's gonna rage out real soon something we're gonna get we're gonna you know we're gonna get some Fisk rage but there was no Fisk rage there was none there was none and Rich I think you know the last episode we talked we talked about Fisk I had said that he's not the man he used to be not only to himself but in the eyes of Vanessa as well like there's kind of something missing and I kind of felt like there was something missing in this version of Fisk too and the big reveal that he has Adam locked up in a cage as he's you know in his place where he goes to eat dinner. What the hell was that all about by the way like that was kind of weird like I just come here to eat dinner and look at this Adam guy.
SPEAKER_01I don't know that was kind of odd but the fact that he has this guy locked up tells me that we're gonna get to a point where the crossing of the line is going to be when he murders Adam like murder Adam's dying like that's my sense of things what did you guys think about this scene and what are your thoughts on what I just said yeah so like my thought is is is I I took it as Adam in the cage was his own way of looking at a piece of art that's hanging on the wall. It's okay Kingpin's version of you know the of a piece of art and yeah he's gonna die and he's gonna go way off and we're gonna get Kingpin um I maybe maybe he'll be the name Kingpin again by the end of the series or the end of season one. I hope so but um man yeah it was it it was me I I even forgot who Adam was for a second like wait is that the guy that he was having an affair with and because didn't he just say that he didn't know I think but he did because obviously got him and how long has he had him at least a year at least a year yeah yeah at least a year.
SPEAKER_02So what I liked about the the marriage counseling scene they're sitting closer now uh yeah they're in in the table where they're uh at home they're a little bit closer now so there's there's some progression in the saving of their marriage and I like what the um the counselor was saying as far as are are you here to to save a marriage or dissolve one and and think about that as we go through the these counseling sessions. So I thought that was really good. And as far as him not raging out I think he he he will never hurt Vanessa right and he oh no no no I agree with yeah he's always lived for Vanessa's approval. So to hear Vanessa's uh so disapproving of him I think uh made him kind of get him all up in his feels about himself like he felt bad that this him traipsing off to Oklahoma to try to win back Echo that shot him in the face which was kind of cool you saw a little scar on his eye sitting sitting on the couch. Um the call back to Echo and and and for whatever reason he found echo trying to win back Echo was more important than staying with Vanessa Vanessa there was betrayal on both sides so Vanessa felt betrayed by by Wilson because he went off and did his thing in Hawkeye and and in the Echo series. And then Fisk felt betrayed because Vanessa cheated on him. So there's betrayals on both sides and forgiveness was the theme of of the counseling session and really kind of one of the other themes of the of this particular episode Matt having to forgive himself for what happened to Foggy and Fisk and Vanessa having to forgive each other for the betrayal and can their marriage be saved? What's it going to take um will Wilson be able to live up to uh Vanessa's expectations again was was throughout that whole marriage counseling scene and and that dungeon that that Adam was in was pretty cool. And if there was any question on whether this show connected to the Netflix series was answered when he walked past uh Rabbit in a snowstorm with the bloodstain on it uh because that was in the Netflix series and the bloodstain came from Wilson Fisk because Matt was beating him to a pulp in that episode and he didn't clean it off the painting. So definite connections now if there wasn't any doubt. And I thought it was a really cool walk by scene and then Adam being there. I I don't know why he's keeping Adam around I wonder if it's just kind of a reminder to himself of his failures of Vanessa and then when if their marriage reconciles yeah he'll probably kill him yeah I definitely think I see that coming so before I get Brad's thoughts on that scene this is the storyline that I think is the hardest for me to to to to uh to accept I feel like this is the most out of character thing for any of the characters in this series I don't feel like Vanessa would abandon um or take issue with Wilson doing what he's gonna do especially if he's still in that world if he's still in the criminal underworld she's been very so like she's always been super supportive of everything you know she's never really raised an issue about anything even when he was like you know supposed to be in jail but was like living in a hotel like secretly that's that wasn't an issue um so I it just feels like because the script demands it we needed to kind of separate them a bit to kind of get this story told that's really the only part of the series I'm having trouble with and then the other part that I'm having trouble with is um Wilson being so passive about what's happening in his relationship that feels very out of character for me too but granted this new role as mayor maybe maybe he feels like he needs to be that way like he needs to he needs to forget his old ways and and and try and find a new version of himself where it's more suited towards the office and it's more suited towards the type of man that he wants to be but do you guys get what like do you guys get what I'm saying do you feel like this is a little bit out of character for both these characters or no you want to go rich or I mean I can sure um we have to remember what happened to Deco right Echo reached into his mind to pull the violence out of him telling him that you don't have to to solve your problems with violence anymore because of what happened in your childhood right so she used her power of healing to try to heal his mind. Now granted he kind of pulled out of it you know there towards the end and didn't get completely out of it. So it made him rethink his choices as Fisk slash Kingpin which launched him into this I didn't see Echo. I'm gonna have to go watch that thanks at least the well I would say not this the last episode because the relationship between Fisk and Echo builds through the whole thing. It's it's really Echo is really good. I I think it got some unfair flack um but I thought it was a really good show um especially with with Fisk and the dynamic between Fisk and Echo and what their relationship was in that show that made him want to go back and get her. So she changed him uh in his mind to to try to be less violent. So I don't see it as out of character. I just see it as a natural progression from Echo. Now because I don't think it's it's gonna stick because Kingpin is Kingpin I don't I don't think it's gonna stick by the end. I I think something's gonna happen uh probably with Adam that's gonna he's gonna break bad but he's not he's trying to be a different Fisk because when Echo did that to him he was on his plane at the end credit scene of Echo and he sees a news story about who's going to stand up for New York and then Fisk is running for mayor. So um no I I I don't think it's I don't think it's out of character. I think it's just the natural progression of where he where his character was from the Netflix series through Hawkeye through Echo through now. I mean it's it's a whole arc.
SPEAKER_03Okay I would probably feel the same if I'd seen Echo too if that's actually what happened so yeah you know I definitely have to watch that um okay well I retract my statement then until I watch Echo and I'll come back and I'll let you know how I feel about that. Brad how did you feel about that scene?
SPEAKER_01Yeah I agree with Rich a lot too I think a lot of it is because of his public profile now as well he knows the that again he's a strategist so he knows that he has to hold back right now and until you know until the things are falling apart where he can't put them back together because he's playing the role of the politician right now uh the the you know the puppet master and so I think that's what I was taking by it just that yeah he's got the rage just not willing to use it because all the eyes are him and he doesn't even know who he can trust for point in uh point at Michael Gandolfini is you know like he came clean about you know leaving some information to people to they're trying to tarnish his name so he really doesn't know who he can trust.
SPEAKER_02I mean yeah if anybody's head was going to get cracked through a car door it was going to be Michael Gandolfini at that moment in the old Kingpin but because he loyal loyalty uh loyalty means a lot to Kingpin right means a lot to King it's not just that it's not just that let me jump in for a second you know the scene the shot where they have him standing like right across from each other and they're like he has his hand on his shoulder he's looking at himself in the mirror like that kid could be the young Wilson Fisk if you really fucking think about it.
SPEAKER_03If you look at the way that they both look like they could be the he he could be the young Wilson Fisk and I think what's happening is that Fisk is seeing a lot of himself in that particular character. I'm trying to remember his name I think it's Tom Burke or something. Daniel Burke sorry Daniel Blake so I think in Daniel Blake Fisk sees a lot of himself and um that's what's really driving his motivations for not literally ripping that kid apart. I think that's a big part of it. But you were saying that yeah he's definitely he definitely puts a lot of value in loyalty and he definitely puts a lot of value in people who are there for him you know so I think that there's a merit that you know there's merit to that too.
SPEAKER_02I love the look on Sheila's face too as uh in between them being like nose to nose right and Sheila's like what is happening right now like that was and the way they went in in in focus and out of focus on Sheila's face was just really great cinematography. I thought it was fun.
SPEAKER_03Yeah she's like old age this kid is dying yeah yeah and I'm gonna I'm gonna be with him yep yeah it was pretty good no for sure and the other thing um which I found interesting uh was there uh was when he said if you ever do that if some what was it if you do it again it's the last thing you'll ever do the last thing you ever do now now Did he mean that in a professional sense, or did he literally mean what I thought he meant, which is I will kill you? Shades of Kingpin. That's the thing. It could be either one. Yeah. Yeah. But I got the sense that he literally meant I will kill you. Like we're just kind of starting to see some things percolating to the surface now. We're seeing the breaks.
SPEAKER_01We're seeing the breaks to for him to become the old Kingpin, just like Matt becoming back to being Daredevil. Every episode is that mirror.
SPEAKER_03Yep, no, for sure. Um, okay, so let's talk about Muse. We finally got here. That scene was pretty freaky. Uh that character looks extremely comic comic accurate, which is great. And he's drawing blood out of the guy. Well, no, wait. We get we gotta talk about the fact that they started the episode with him walking down the train track with this guy on his back, and then by the end of the episode, he's got this guy and whatever Lair he's got, and he's draining blood out of him. So I don't know if that was a linear timeline or what, but that was a long walk with somebody on your back if that was a linear fucking timeline. Was it the same person? I think so. It looked like it.
SPEAKER_02I couldn't tell.
SPEAKER_03It looked like the same person. But yeah, he's literally draining blood out of that guy, and my theory is he's using it to do his art.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I I love the character of Muse. I didn't know a lot about Muse, so I had to do some Googling. It's basically like if Banksy was a serial killer, essentially, is what he is. Uh, and and his power set, you know, he's an inhuman, so his power set kind of cancels out Daredevil's power set. Like he can make himself basically invisible to Daredevil's, you know, sonar heightened senses thing. So when it, I mean, I don't know if Muse has any fighting skills, but if if this if this guy has any fighting skills, it's gonna be it's gonna be a a good fight scene between him and Daredevil. And and like I said at the beginning, I mean, they're slow dripping Muse. And what that tells me is it's gonna be brutal by the end of it, um, because they're just teasing him out and and just giving you a little bit of of what he can his brutality and you know, draining the blood out of a guy while he's still alive, um, and then using that blood to to paint his artwork. And in the comics, Muse is, you know, he's an equal opportunity killer. He kills heroes, he kills villains, he kills civilians, he kills anybody. He's he's uh he's a monster, like you're a serial killer. Yeah, though.
SPEAKER_03He's a serial killer.
SPEAKER_02Um I'm really looking forward to seeing how hard they lean into the TV MA of it uh in terms of the violence, uh in regards to Muse. Um so yeah, the the slow drip has me in into it's like Jaws when when Jaws first came out, right? You didn't see the shark, you saw the fins, you saw, and then the one moment where the Jaws come up, and you know, it's like we need a bigger boat. That's when you got the full on uh of of the shark. So when when we see Muse and all of his glory is gonna be really, really interesting.
SPEAKER_03Cool. Well, before we wrap it up, let's get some predictions for next episode. Brad, start with you.
SPEAKER_01I think we're gonna go. I think I think this is gonna be a heavier episode about Muse. I think we're gonna get some more Muse in there. Um, I think it's gonna be just a catch-up, uh catch up uh to where we are there. I think we're gonna see Daredevil trying to gut through the next couple days, uh, thinking that uh uh what happened with Frank didn't affect him the way that it did. And he's just gonna keep on moving back to that Daredevil. He's gonna stop being so close to um the girlfriend. Oh my gosh, why am I blanking her name? Uh the girlfriend. Which one? Oh, Rebecca Glenn? Rebecca, thank you. I'm like, wow, I could not think of Rebecca's name. Uh I think he's gonna make a phone call to Karen Page. I think, or something, uh something he's gonna bring back that connection a little bit. I think in the same thing, Kingpin or Wilson Fisk is gonna get tired, or not tired, but um he's trying to be the mayor, but he's also the more he tries to be the mayor, the more he's gonna be falling back into who the Kingpin is. So that's where I'm going.
SPEAKER_03I can see that. I can see him going after his old, you know, his old uh his old contacts, the other the other heads of the other organization organized crime organizations that are making his progress slower than he wants. I think that's definitely something that's gonna happen. Um, and it's clear that the other guy, um Buck Cashman, doesn't really have any problem with that. I think he's gonna be very okay with that. I think he's a new Wesley. I think he's a new Wesley um in the mix here for sure. Uh so I definitely see something like that happen. Rick, sorry, Rich, what's your um what are your what are your predictions?
SPEAKER_02I think like with Brad, I think we're gonna see. I wouldn't be surprised if the next episode was a flashback episode of how Muse became Muse. Um, because you you see his full face, you see how brutal he is. Now we have to answer the question, how did we get here? Um so I I wouldn't be surprised if it feels like a bottle episode of just Muse. Um his past is growing up, what made him become the way he is, and then it and then it leads up to that final scene that we just saw. Um so my prediction is we we probably won't see Matt, we probably won't see Fisk. It'll be all Muse.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01Do you think he's gonna be an inhuman? Do you think we're gonna give him part of the phone?
SPEAKER_02I don't think so. I I mean that's way too much to try to explain, right? Um I I think he's just gonna, but I don't I don't think he's just gonna be a straight-up serial killer. He's gotta do something to challenge Matt. I mean, Matt could clean the floor with him in a hand-to-hand fight if if if not if he wasn't an inhuman. So uh there's they're gonna have to simplify his power set in a way uh to make it easily digestible for you know the common fan and to find out who this you know most people know who boot who who bullseye was, but nobody's gonna not a whole lot of people are gonna know about Muse because he's a recent addition to the the Daredevil Rogues gallery.
SPEAKER_03True. Yeah, he is a recent addition to the canon for sure. Um, yeah, I definitely see us diving more into Muse. I think that's why they ended on that final shot. That was his introduction. Now they want to, you know, uh expand on it, probably. And I think that we're gonna see Matt kind of struggle with the road that he's kind of heading down. He's finally kind of opened up the jar of the pain that he's been dealing with with Foggy. And uh I think that's gonna send him into some pretty dark places. And a lot of Daredevil casual Daredevil fans do not know this, but Matt has a ha in the comics has a very extensive history of mental illness, very extensive, multiple personality disorder, schizophrenia, the whole nine. Like he is not the the most most well balanced mentally, you know, in the Marvel universe. He's he's definitely got some issues. So, um, but yeah, I think that's kind of where we're gonna go with this thing. But, anyways, guys, listen, thank you for joining us. Uh, we really enjoyed having you. We really enjoyed breaking down this episode. We're looking forward to the next one. If you have any comments or questions, anything you want us to answer for you in the next episode, drop us a message on Twitter at uh meanwhile underscore pod. Or you can uh go by uh check out our speakpipe at speakpipe.com forward slash meanwhile uh underscore pod. Um I believe we still have a count there, so you can drop something there. And uh we'll see you guys on the next one. Until the until next time, I'm Frank McLaur.
SPEAKER_01I'm the Emperor of Awesome, Bradley V2, and Richard.
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