Daredevil: Born Again After Show - Ep. 7 - (Ep. 157)

Episode 7 had a lot to unpack—and not always in a good way. Rich literally thought he missed an episode. Frank calls it one long exposition dump. From Muse's rushed arc to awkward therapy scenes and clunky dialogue, we’re breaking it all down—what worked, what absolutely didn’t, and what it means for episodes 8 and 9.

We dive into:

• Why Muse’s exit felt unearned
• The weird pacing and lack of buildup
• Missed opportunities for tension and character development
• Predictions for the finale and Season 2
• And whether Marvel is losing its grip on creative economy

If you’re confused, frustrated, or just curious what the hell happened—this is the episode for you.

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#DaredevilBornAgain #Marvel #Episode7 #Muse #Podcast #MCURecap

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:00

The way they just speed ran through so many things, I thought we missed an episode. Like, I literally stopped the episode, hit the back button on my Roku controller, and scrolled through the episodes. I was like, did I miss something? Because I feel like I'm missing something.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Meanwhile Back on the Podcast. How's it going? Uh, we are here to talk about Daredevil episode. Uh, what are we on? Seven? That was seven? Seven. We're going to eight and nine. Yep. So episode seven. Uh, we're here to break that down, unpack it. We're going to share our thoughts, our feelings. We'll uh talk about some theories that we have about the next coming two episodes, how this is going to lead into season two, because season two is already kind of being shot. So obviously this script was being written for a purpose. They wanted to move this into season two. I wouldn't be surprised if they bundled a couple of the 16 episodes and moved them into season two, to be honest with you. Um, did you ever consider that?

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Rich? Yeah, I I I think you know, originally it was supposed to be like an 18-episode season. So I think they just cut it in half. So the the ninth episode isn't really gonna be a season finale, so it's just the ninth episode, and then season two, episode one's gonna be the tenth episode. So it's so I'm trying to temper my expectations based on what I saw tonight uh or uh on last night's episode to just because I'm thinking, you know, there it's gonna continue. It's it's not a finale, it's it's just a pause. It's like a season season one, part one, and season one, part two.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah, no, I I see it going that way too. I think that's definitely the direction it's gonna go. Um, I've got a feeling that uh if I was the writer and they told me, hey, you know, you wrote 18 seasons or you wrote 18 episodes, I wouldn't want to throw away all of it. I would try and I would want to try and recover some of that work. So you know, I totally, you know, I can totally see where they're coming from. Yeah. Uh give me one sec here. Oh not doing this to promote Marvel.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

I'm just getting comfortable. Says the man in the Marvel shirt.

unknown 2:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yeah. So um let's talk about first impressions on this episode. Uh Britch, I'll let you go and I'll and I'll uh I'll follow.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Yeah, uh wasn't a fan of this one. Um, I I literally the the way they just speed ran through so many things, I thought we missed an episode. Like I literally stopped the episode, hit the back button on my Roku controller, and scrolled through the episodes. I was like, did I miss something? Because I feel like I'm missing something. And this was just an exposition dump of an episode. And uh I wasn't a fan, especially after the high of episodes five and six and how good both of those were in tandem. Um, I expected a lot out of episode seven, and unfortunately, it just didn't deliver. I don't know if this was the case of reshooting because they had to reshoot some episodes uh, you know, to to bring Foggy and Karen back and do all that, and or reshoot when they had to reshoot most of the show, but there there were so many unnecessary exposition exposition dumps in here that we'll probably talk about that I I was like, what happened? Like uh what happened in in the writer's room between episodes six and seven that made them go, yeah, uh, yeah, this is fine. This is this is fine. And and and just move on. So I was really disappointed. Um the fight scene was was pretty good. Um we'll talk about that a little bit. The one fight scene was pretty good. Uh some individual performances were were good. Um, but overall, just yeah, really disappointed. I mean, eight, eight and nine are gonna have to to really swing for the fences and and get it. But uh, I mean, they can't all be bangers, right? So, I mean, the first six episodes were great. Um, and then seven. You want to talk about filler episode. This actually felt like a filler episode. You know, we talked about episode five being a bottle episode. This one felt like a filler, or it just felt like it this should have been episode later. It should have been episode nine, and there should have been two more episodes before this before we led to this one. The episode itself might have made more sense had we had some lead up to it. Because I was just it it was it it felt very schizophrenic uh overall.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

So yeah, I'm with you there. Um it definitely did feel like a huge exposition dump. I'd also say that it was just a lot of nothing. Very empty. Yeah. There was a lot of character development, or a lot of assumed character development. You know, even even that part with uh what's his face? Uh the the the former cop, the private investigator. What's his name again? Oh, Cherry. Yeah, even the part with Cherry, I was like okay. Yeah, yeah. Like when did you when did you become prohibitive about Matt becoming Daredevil again? Like it just I don't know. There was like a there there was like a lot of strong arming ideas and and motivations and and things into this episode just to sort of make the script work. And I wasn't I wasn't too big a fan of that, you know?

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Yeah, yeah, I I wasn't either. I I think me and you tonight, I'm I'm probably gonna dip into my more negative self tonight because I was just sweet. So disappointed. I was just so disappointed. Um Muse went out like a punk, man. Like all that build-up, and he goes out like a chump. I'm like, ah man.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Yep. Yeah, no, that was that was disappointing. And going back to what Cherry was saying like I don't know. I felt like it was forced. Like everything he was saying about how he felt about Mac getting back into the cow was forced. Yeah, at least with his like his position, like saying that, you know, if you want to ruin your life again, go for it. Like where was the first time? Yeah, like where was the first time? Right. Like in the like like in this context. Yeah, yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Because Foggy died because a like a psycho killed him, that doesn't really that really doesn't translate, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Yeah, because there was no hint that Cherry knew him in the Netflix series. Like Cherry, Cherry didn't exist before Netflix, because when he said again, I was like, yeah, exactly. Where was when was the first time? I mean, and so I started thinking back to Netflix. I'm like, I don't remember seeing this dude in here. Um, but I I get what what Cherry was saying. There's there's a couple of good lines there where he said, you know, I'm not gonna enable you. Uh it just uh enable you to basically fall off the wagon again as Daredevil. So he it was kind of like I'm this is an intervention. I'm not gonna help you um down your I'm not gonna help you in your addiction, which was really interesting. A really interesting take on um how they how they've written Matt Murdoch as Daredevil, where he's he's addicted to doing what Daredevil does, and Sherry's trying to not enable him to do that. Like he's like, can you just can you just go down there to the and and snoop around? It's like no, I'm not gonna do any of that. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna help you in your downward spiral to death. Um so I I I understood that. I I I felt that. But there, yeah, the clunky dialogue though about if you want to ruin your life again, I I yeah, that was that was weird. It was weird.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Yeah, it was forced. Like it just it just felt forced. And then all the little interactions between everybody was just like exposition dump. Like, what's Muse doing? Like, you know, what are these illustrations? Like, what is all this stuff? And then even just as soon as as soon as what's his first name now, by the way? What's his real name? Who?

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Which one? Muse. Muse. Oh god. I can't oh man, I can't even remember what Muse's actual name was. They had to make up, I was reading they had to make up his name for the show because they never had a they never identified who he really was in the comics. He was always Muse. Okay. So I can't remember what his name was. It was something kind of convoluted. I'm just gonna call him Muse. But uh, yeah, I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

I'm gonna have to Okay. Well, anyways, yeah seeing this kid pop up in Heather Graham's office for this long you know, for this long session felt like felt like a green hat with an orange bill. Like it just stood out like so much and it and it stood out awkwardly. It didn't stand out in a way like it was exceptional. It just stood out awkwardly because there was literally no setup for this moment in the entire series. None. There's like nothing. He comes to see her at some book signing, yep. And he says something to her that gives you the impression that he has some kind of pre-existing relationship with her in that moment as well, right? Yeah. So maybe there's footage somewhere of scenes that they did together that didn't make the cut. Possibly.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

I guess. But when he started talking and they're going through their Bastion, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

It's Bastion. That's it. Bastion.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Yeah. So as they're talking, you're the assumption is that they've been, you know, going to therapy sessions for a while, but there's no lead up to it. I'm like, there's there's no I don't care about this interaction. Like, I I just because you didn't you didn't build up to it. There weren't yeah, there's no suspense. There's no suspense, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:34

There's just there's no quiet intensity. Like, for instance, let's let's use Dex as an example, right? When Dex was being counseled by that young woman that he ended up killing, there was a lead up to that. Right. They were poking at it and going, Hey, there's like something that's gonna happen here. You know, pay attention to the nuances and the subtleties and and all the little things that are gonna happen. Right. You know, the looks, the gestures, the pauses, everything in between the words. Like, pay attention to that because we're gonna do something with this. Yeah. There was none of that here. None.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

All the great therapy, like serial killer therapy sessions. There's there's always this relationship that you like. Silence of the lambs is a perfect example of this, right? The whole movie built this whole relationship between the therapist and the killer. And, you know, there is it, there's almost a will they, won't they in terms of like, am I gonna kill this therapist or am I not, or am I gonna change? Am I gonna be a better person? Um, is the therapist gonna get through to me? All this, none of that happened here. There was no buildup. It it made me not care about what was gonna happen. Like, I I did say earlier, when we did an earlier recap that if if Muse kills um Heather, you know, I'm gonna write because I liked Heather. I liked her as a character in the show, but you speed ran through the whole therapy session. There, there was nothing there that led me to believe that we're at this point now where Muse thinks of Heather as my next art installation. So it was just it was it was really disappointing. Like you said, the first time we see him is at a book signing, and this is the next time we see them together, and there's no buildup. And I was I was actively kind of mad because I was like, what do you you're thinking we're dumb right now? Like you're just telling us they have this and we're just supposed to appreciate it. But I'm like, give me an episode of because when I said earlier I predicted there'd be a bottle episode of where how Muse got to be where he was. This is what I was talking about. It I thought it'd be in therapy sessions where we'd see flashbacks of him as a kid. You know, they had a live-in Taekwondo instructor. Let's see that. You know, let's let's see all of these things that his rich parents put him through that drove him to be this artist that just wanted to be seen by by yeah, by his loved ones, by his family, by everyone, but it was neglected at every turn. Um but none of that happened. And and I was I was actually mad. And I I didn't like it.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

And I like I like I want to see how he killed a taekwondo instructor. Like this guy's one of the best in North America. Right. I want to see how it happened. Yeah, you know, yeah. Did he get a did he get the drop on him? Did he poison him? Did he kill him in his sleep? Did he kill him in his sleep? Right. Like did he, you know, did he uh you know, try and run him over like in some fake car accident? Like, you know what I mean? Like, I want to see that shit. Yeah. Like, like I want to see that shit, you know, and and it really didn't make a lot of sense to me. No. If they had like, okay, so let's go back to that scene where he meets her at the at the book thing, right? If he had handed a handed her a drawing that he did, it was like, hey, you're one of my favorite authors, I've learned so much from you. I did this little drawing from the back of your book cover. I hope you like it, right? Yeah, that would have signaled something. Yeah, you know, pay attention. That would have signaled, pay attention, pay attention. That would have signaled something because that would have let us make the connection between Muse and this kid, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Because we didn't immediately do that, we just figured that out because of the casting, right? There's really nothing, there's really nothing in the story that connects this kid that comes up toward the book signing to make that connection to Muse. There's literally nothing.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

That's a that's a great point. That's a great point. The only way we knew that was Muse at the book signing was because we the internet, we knew who was being cast as it or like we spotted him. Oh, that's Muse. But you're right, there was no lead up to him revealing himself as Muse to her. Like, there was no therapy sessions where she's kind of like, I really think this dude is this serial killer that the police keep talking. Well, actually, I don't know if the police even released anything about it, but there there was no there was no like cat and mouse game, there was no chess, yeah, you know, cerebral chess match between this brilliant psychologist and this this kid that just became muse through his upbringing. And it was just there was so much potential. There was yeah, I wouldn't have minded an extra episode of that and and building up to that because you get these little glimpses of muse up through what episode seven or six, yeah. Up through episode six, you're only seeing glimpses, you're seeing murals, you're seeing hints at how vicious this guy is, and then you see really none of that um before he's oft. And it's you know, you see a a glimmer of it when he kidnaps uh uh Hector's niece, Angela Del Toro. Angela, right? Angela Del Toro? Yeah, but that's that's it. So I I'm really upset that that Muse got the treatment that he did because he is probably one of the cooler MCU baddies uh that we've seen, uh especially at the street level.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

Potential to be cooler, yeah. Potential to be cooler, like as far as like ingredients and raw material, he had everything to be a really compelling villain. Yeah, you know, yeah, but they literally just fridged him. Yeah. Like they literally fridged him. You know what I mean? It's it's it's really disappointing. Yeah, and if and if the drawings had progressed, and maybe if he had gotten a little bit stalker-ish, kind of like the same way Dex did, maybe that's why they didn't do it. They didn't want to echo back to some of the bullseye stuff, possibly. But yeah, there's a way they could have there's a way they could have progressed up to this line a little bit with a little bit more, with a little bit more meat on the bone, you know, a little bit more substance. Yeah. So I'm a little disappointed that we didn't get that. I think that was should have been something that they really focused on to kind of get us there, but we didn't get to that point. So, you know, it it you know, it is what it is. But the other thing I was gonna say too, is like even somebody who's not a psycho has to warm up to their therapist and get to a point where they can have an episode right in front of them. For instance, like let's look at Tony Soprano. When Tony Soprano meets Jennifer Melfi, uh he's completely polite to her. Uh-huh. Totally polite, right? Until she crosses a line, until she invades a space that he doesn't want her in, and then he loses his mind, he loses his temper. Right. But up until that point, up until that point, he's trying to be as cordial and as friendly and as courteous as he possibly can because he's trying to make an impression on the therapist that maybe there isn't anything wrong. You know, a lot of people do that going into therapy. They're trying to communicate to their therapist that there's nothing wrong with me. Right. So they kind of go above and beyond trying to trying to establish that. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Yep.

unknown 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

And so the therapist's job is to break, I was gonna say the therapist's job is to break through that wall and and and to see, you know, to to see the different ways that a therapist does that, and then you have that breakout moment with with the patient. And again, you didn't get that with with the Muse Heather uh relationship.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

No, no. So unfortunately, we didn't get that. But but uh and then yeah, you know, the fight was cool. I really enjoyed the fight. I thought the fight was awesome. Um I love the fact that Matt threw a baton in the face of that the cop that was harassing him, that was pretty cool. I don't know if that was meant to be funny, but I laughed out loud.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

I was like, ha! Yeah, that's pretty good. That was pretty funny. I was like, man, that cop just can't catch a break. He just keeps getting his his butt handed to him. It's hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Yeah, but the fight was exceptionally brutal, which I liked. Did you feel like the taekwondo story was almost to justify how well Muse fought in the episode before?

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Yeah, because you're like, how is this guy that all we know of is a serial killer and a muralist, is able to go toe-to-toe with Daredevil with Matt Murdoch, who is trained by stick, right? So yeah, you throw in the the live-in Taekwondo teacher. And even when he was living, I think they said at 16, he he started he started old at taekwondo for 16 to be that good. But uh yeah, so that was uh uh um a little out of out of left field there. But that now, you know, now it makes sense that that's how he was able to to go toe-to-toe with him and and give Daredevil a run for his money. But um the fight where Daredevil threw the the club and it was you know the arrow or the grappling hook went through his shoulder, that was pretty cool. That was crazy. And he drug him across the the plastic. It was like his he was his final his final art installation was himself, which I thought was a really kind of neat um bit of symbolism and imagery uh of Muse being part of his own artwork. Um that was that was neat. That was a neat visual. Um but yeah, yeah, that was it was uh it was just really it was just really interesting, just why did they choose to go so fast through probably what should have been the most pivotal moment in Muse's character arc of the show. I I don't know why they they made that decision.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Yeah, I agree. Um, but as you like you sent me a screenshot from some some posting you found that is an image of a trailer on the set of season two. Yeah. Apparently there's a trailer there for Muse.

unknown 19:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Or the body or the body double or the stunt double. Stunt Muse. So that either indicates a couple of things. Either it's a copycat killer uh that takes up the mantle of Muse. Um or I don't know, I can't think of what else it would be. I mean, again, the hand the hand theories are running rampant again about raising dead people to life. Uh but it's it's either gotta be kind of like with Foggy. If Foggy's in season two, it's either gonna be through flashbacks or dream sequences. So um, you know, what the showrunner was in an interview with TV Line, I think, saying that the repercussions of this episode will reverberate in season two. What does that mean exactly? I don't know. Um, but stunt muse, at least, is gonna be in season two somehow. We we don't know.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Interesting. Well, there's definitely a chance he could come back. Um well he got shot.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

I don't know, he got shot a bunch of times. Yeah, he got shot like three times. Yeah. Heather had a solid headbutt in that fight. I was like, whoa, that's pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Yeah, she could shoot too. Yeah. Yeah, I need some explanation on that because people just can't shoot like that right off the bat. That that's not uh that's not something that just happens for people. They can just shoot like they can hit dead mass like that, like so easy.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

As the blood is literally draining from her arm, you know, gotta be lightheaded.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Yeah, but that heightens your adrenaline too. Like that's true, you know, being under threat like that heightens your adrenaline, sharpens your senses. Yeah. So, you know, I think it I think it would improve your chances of hitting a target. And he was pretty close.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

I mean, he was he was sub ten feet away from her, I think. So it's possible.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Yeah. So you think his plan was basically to open her up and make a mural? Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Yeah. It's he in in the comics, Muse doesn't look as himself look at himself as a as a killer. He he thinks this is the best version of these the kill the people that he kills, he feels like he's releasing them to be their best selves, uh, as as an art piece. So the way he drew her her sketches progressively bloodier and bloodier, as we saw as Matt was um, you know, looking at the pictures and feeling them with his hands, you know, he that was his that was gonna be his Mona Lisa, I think, was was gonna be Heather, his final, or I don't know, his final piece, but it's gonna be his his Mona Lisa, yeah. His masterpiece.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Yeah, yo, and I gotta call I gotta call a little bit of bullshit on him being able to feel around that picture and and call it back. To Heather, because the scale is totally off. Right? The scale's completely off. I gotta call a little bit of bullshit there. But here's my question Is his like he used to have a like he did he he he had a type of sight? Yeah. Like he could see shadows and and and almost like kind of like in a grayscale way, but more like reds and and whatever, right? Like that was kind of the way that he saw things. Is that gone now for him in this series?

SPEAKER_00 22:29

They haven't really depicted his sight in that way. You know, I kind of think I kind of think back to Ben Affleck's Daredevil and the way that he saw was kind of sonar, like he would bang his billy club against something and it would it would be like a bat sonar, and he could see shapes and and and somewhat outlines of things. But in this version of Daredevil, they haven't really explained it that way. Um so I think they're really leaning on the other senses as being super heightened. So, you know, he he felt Heather's face earlier in the episode, and and as he's going through the drawings, you know, the earlier drawings he didn't recognize because they were just sketches of like with pencil or whatever, they're relatively flat. But as he was getting to the ones that were drawn in blood and they were kind of more raised on the paper, he could kind of feel okay, the the way the hair is shaped, the way the I don't know, the way the the eyes are spaced out and and that they were all the same. Um I guess, you know, heightens heightens sense of it.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Yeah, yeah, but at scale it does make like anyways, I'm just nitpicking.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

So uh Fisk was not happy to hear that Daredevil was back. Not happy to hear that Matt was back in the mask.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

I don't know. The way he was looking out the window and Luke, was it Luca, yeah. Luca, no, Buck. When Buck was saying that Daredevil's back, he had a little bit of a of a smirk. Kind of I I think he I think he was happy that Daredevil's back. I don't think he is. No, you don't think so? No. I saw a little smirk, almost a sigh of relief that that he's that he's back. I don't know. I maybe I read his face wrong.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

I think if that was the case, I think what would have happened is Fisk wouldn't have tried to take credit for the capture of Muse. I think he would have mentioned that Daredevil was there. I think that he's not happy about it. I also I also was hoping that he would go full bore on the whole born-again plan from the comics, and like this would be the start of him trying to ruin Matt's life again. That would be that would be epic, but I don't see that coming. Well, you had that see this.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Go ahead. I was gonna say he had that big monologue about how Daredevil ruined his business because Fisk views himself as a legitimate businessman. Like all I did was try to make life better for the people around me, right? Yeah, and Daredevil unjustly jailed me and ruined me. So I I think he's happy in a sense that Daredevil's back because then he has and he has this anti-vigilante task force now. Now he has government resources at his disposal. So now he can uh take out Daredevil, you know, with with that, and and finally ended up.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

We're in agreement here. I'm like, when I say that he's not happy, I'm just saying he wasn't like it's not a it's not a positive outcome for him. So we're very much on the same page where where yes, he he he he wants like he still sees Daredevil as one of his enemies and he wants to he wants to exact revenge. Like that's definitely coming. That's all I'm saying. When I said that he wasn't happy, it was just like you're saying he's happy in a sense that he's he gets that he's gonna be there to do it. Yes, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

All right. Because he can't do that to Matt Murdoch the lawyer.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

We're talking past each other, but yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Yeah, so he he can't he can't do that to Matt Murdoch the lawyer, but he can do that to Matt Murdoch the vigilante.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

True, 100%. That's that's that's exactly what I was thinking, and that's what they're setting up is this task force versus excuse me, people. Uh this task force against Daredevil and the Defenders and Punisher, um, which is definitely gonna be a part of season two. Jessica Jones has already been seen on set in front of the camera. I don't think I've heard anything about Luke Cage or Danny Rand. Nope yet. But uh but Jessica Jones is definitely back on set. She's wearing her leather jacket and her cool boots and all that. Um still the same, still the same outfit, which is kind of cool. Um but yeah, so yeah, the task force is coming, and they're pretty much walking to Fisk is drum fisk's drum for sure. They're taking all the orders from him, and even the cops are now too. That detective was he's like, Oh, I'll take it from here. I'm the mayor of New York, I'll take over your case. I'm not a cop or anything, but I'll take over. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

That was kind of weird. She was she was kind of weirded out by that. What I thought was interesting too was the conversation that she was having with Fisk, she should have been having with Angela in the hospital. But, you know, it's what what the script demanded, right? Yeah. And another thing of exposition tough that we were talking about is she hands him the folder and he's like reading it out. Like, okay, she she knows. Why why are you saying this? Like she knows all this. So it was just, it was just all of it for our benefit, but it was just weird. It it just came off really weird and clunky. And um, I mean, even the same thing with with Matt and Angela in the hospital when they were talking. Um I I kind of I mean, it was it was a neat conversation, but again, it should have been the detective talking to her and getting this information. But I kind of get that Angela doesn't trust the cops, so maybe that's why she wasn't there. Um, but she the way she talked to Matt, like she was enamored with Daredevil. Like Daredevil's there and saved my life. And Angela del Toro is the white tiger in the comics, so this could inspire her to become the new White Tiger, even though she's younger. Or we could be seeing a White Tiger Young Avengers kind of bridge there, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Could be.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Um, the other thing, actually, this just came to mind, but this other thing that really disappointed me about the whole muse arc is we didn't get to see any of the subtext to his psychosis. We didn't get to see like why he's like this. We didn't get to see any of the sort of baby steps. Like there's no there's no progression in watching him go from a different version of himself to this this more uh twisted version of himself. We don't get to see that part. Right. Um, that's really disappointing. Because I think that that's something that we all want to see is you know, when we're dealing with somebody who uh is basically breaking under the weight of the world, we want to be able to see how that how that progressed. We got to see that with Dex. We got to see that with Wilson Fisk. We got to see that with a lot of characters. Um but yeah, so going back to um going back to Fisk. Um, so I had I had two predictions that came right in this episode. I said that I said that um well the context of this is still unclear, but I said that Vanessa would try and kill him. He kind of she kind of did. But whether they were co-conspirators is left to be seen. I think they were. I think they were because why was Buck hiding with a silenced weapon? Doesn't really make a lot of sense. There's a lot of people on Twitter that are like, oh my god, Vanessa tried to kill kill Wilson. Uh, I don't know. I don't I I don't think it's that cut and dry. I don't think so. I think you guys are not really reading the tea leaves. I don't think you're reading the uh the subtext of of all the things that are there. I also said Buck was gonna be the new Wesley, and he is the new Wesley. Yeah, I did say that. So that's who this guy is. He is totally cool with killing people. Whether he has a history of killing people or whether this was his first kill, didn't look like it was his first kill, to be honest with you. No, no, uh, no, because you don't like just have a silenced weapon and be able to shoot people in the head for your first time. I mean, they didn't really go that smooth.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Yeah, they even talk about it like the life Wilson Fist says, the life I brought you from. We don't know what that life is. I mean, in the comics, in the comics, I think he was like a contract killer or an assassin or something. But yeah, he is he is very comfortable with killing. I like Buck. I like Buck as a character, very smooth, very debonair. Um you know, really made the case to be the next James Bond, I think. I mean, he was great. Um, but as far as Vanessa's Vanessa, okay, we got to remember that Vanessa and Fisk are going through marriage counseling, trying to make their marriage better, right? So this instance, I think, is gonna pull Wilson Fisk back into the kingpin part of his life. Um, because Vanessa basically gave him, you know, loyalty is what matters most to Fisk, and Vanessa gave him a disloyal henchman on a platter. Right. So they were working in cahoots. I don't think Vanessa was trying to kill Fisk at all. It was look, I want our marriage to become better, and the way I'm gonna do this is by offering you Luca as a sacrificial lamb, and I want you to I want you to come back to what we're good at, and that's that's running running the streets of Hell's Kitchen in New York. Uh so I I think really this is kind of part of their marriage counseling, right? The family that kills together stays together, kind of thing. So uh that's that's what I think. I don't think Vanessa had any ill intent on this. I did at first. I was like, oh, she's really gonna she's really gonna end them. And then when I saw Buck there, I'm like, yeah, there's there's no other way that Fisk would have known that was gonna happen unless Vanessa told him. So I I just think it's the next evolution of their marriage counseling uh through this season.

SPEAKER_01 31:51

Yeah, yeah, I can see that. Um there's something that's there's some color missing from one of the characters because of them being the common denominator between Fisk and between Bastion or Meuse. How is she not a more popular account like therapist? Like, how come she doesn't have more fame? Sure, she has a book out, but I don't really see a lot of like there's no there's no there's no backstory that sets up that she's uh that she has some fame to her name, yeah. And yeah, Fisk is very wealthy, and clearly Bastion's family is very wealthy. So typically those types of therapists are very famous, you know, they've got a lot of popularity and they write articles for magazines and all kinds of stuff. I don't really see that having been set up for Heather. Um, I think that's one of the ways they could have definitely colored in a little bit more about this uh about her character for sure. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Yeah, so she's I mean, probably popular for the book, and then the publisher, her her editor's honored to write a second book, so she's doing the vigilante book. So the the fame came with the book, I think, and she's probably real selective with her clients, obviously. So she wants like the most deranged clients to to write papers about and and so on. So I think her fame is building.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. Um so one of the things that are become that's that's becoming quite apparent to me is that this show may be a little bit overstuffed with characters. Starting to kind of feel that way. Yeah. Cause I look at because I look at Kirsten McDuffie and like she had like what, like four lines in this episode? Oh, I think ten in the entire series so far. And it didn't even like it, like she hasn't been she hasn't been a she hasn't been a uh a character of consequence in any way, any shape or fashion. Right. Like the only thing is that she helped Matt open up this new this new law firm. That's it. That's it. That's really that's the only thing she's ever done. And then um, what's his face? Uh James Gandalf's son. Um Burke. Yeah. Burke. Yeah. Like he started, like he started off really great, but now he's got like literally nothing to do.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

Yeah, he disappeared for the middle part of the episodes, but he had a he had a good scene, this scene, uh, the way he was threatening BB uh on that and sitting behind.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Yeah, but that was like Yeah, but that like I could have blinked and missed that scene. Yeah. You know? Like there's not really a lot of substance for any of these supporting characters. That's why I mean, like, so when I say that I feel like the show's a little overstuffed, are you starting to feel that way too, or no?

SPEAKER_00 34:44

Um I feel the same with those two particular characters. Like you could have you could have taken uh taken them out and you probably wouldn't have missed anything. Um yeah. So it's is it possible to be overstuffed and small at the same time? Because there's he's got a small circle of friends, like Cherry and and uh I keep forgetting the partner's name, McDuffie. Like this, those are the only two like confidants he kind of has in the show. Yeah, but it's like they're underused. So I wouldn't say they're overstuffed, they're just underused, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

So I'm starting to see I'm starting to see another reason why they killed off Foggy. They couldn't afford it creatively, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

They couldn't afford it, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

I'm starting to feel that way now because they've made this story so so perfectly symmetrical between Fisk and Matt that I just don't think they had any room that they wanted to give to anybody else. Right. So you kill Foggy, you give reason for Karen to leave. Right? I think that's a big part of why they decided to do it. I think it just served the creative vision of the project because if they did have Foggy and Karen back, then we need our Karen and Foggy moments. Right. Because Karen was a huge part of the Daredevil Netflix series. Yep. Foggy a little less so, but Karen was a huge part of that of that Daredevil Netflix series. She had her own arcs, she had her own moments, she had her own motivations. Foggy was just the best friend that was supportive and loving and was kind of the moral compass and the moral barometer, and you know, the aim like you know, the good angel on Matt's shoulder, right? Right. That's was you know, you know, that was his role. But if they kept Foggy around, Karen stays around, and Karen would have chewed up a ton of the yeah, of the landscape. Like, you know, she definitely would have chewed up a lot of that time.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Like Karen could have Karen could have taken Cherry's place and that dialogue that we called clunky would have made a lot more sense coming out of Karen. Yeah, 100%. So because like if Karen would have said, I'm not gonna let you ruin your life again, I could instantly see what she meant by that, right? By thinking back to the neck Netflix series and stuff. So it was it's almost like Cherry and McDuffie were supposed to be the new Karen and Foggy. But they just but they just haven't built the the capital, the emotional capital in us to to believe that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

No, there was there was definitely somebody that sat down and did a cost-benefit analysis on this, and they were like, can we do this and still have Foggy and Karen in the show the same way they were in the Netflix show? And somebody said no. So if we can't have them, if we can't have them, we have to give them a reason to go. So I'm sure if someone killed Karen, Foggy never would have left. Yeah, he would have pursued illegally, right? Yep. But you kill Foggy and Karen goes. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Yep. That makes sense. So I think we may have just cracked more of the why is Foggy dead code. Because I definitely think that was a big part of it. Yeah. But uh yeah, predictions for the next two episodes. Uh how we end in this season.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

I think we're gonna ramp up the vigilante task force from here on out. Um, and I think the reason why they didn't mention Daredevil during the big press conference of We Killed Muse is everybody knows Daredevil's a hero. And Fisk did not want to share that spotlight because nobody would have believed that Daredevil is any kind of criminal. Um, but he's using that now. He's gonna be using that now, saying, This is my task, this is what my task force does. They're gonna because he looks as at Muse and Daredevil as one and the same. They're both vigilantes. Yeah, even though Muse is not a vigilante, he's a straight up psychopathic killer. Uh, but he wore a mask. But he wears a mask.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

That's why they had the mask.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

That's why they had the mask out. Yep. So he's gonna use that obviously as an excuse uh to go after go after Daredevil. But the the one cop that they were talking that had some screen time, Cole. Is it Cole? Is that his Cole North. Cole North. You're gonna see a face turn. Uh because that's what happens in the comics. Uh Cole does a Cole North does a face turn in the comics. He starts off, he actually captures Daredevil at one point. Yeah, I know. But yeah, uh, but then he ends up working with him. So I think you're gonna see that hinted at uh towards the uh towards the end of the season. There's a little glimpses of that when Fist was telling him like Daredevil was never here, right? You know, Fist was Daredevil wasn't here, and he's like, um, oh okay. Like he he kind of didn't want to go along with it, but you know, he has to.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

So No, I got the sense that he was totally on board with that idea. Like there was really no hesitation. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Man, it's like we're watching two different shows, man.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

There may have been some wheels turning in his head, but I didn't I didn't really hear hesitation. Like I didn't really hear hesitation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

You know? But uh but yeah, I think you'll see a face turn from him, and I think you'll definitely see Punisher in the last two episodes.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

So yeah, the Punisher's gotta show up. There's gotta be something there, or the fans are gonna fucking riot. Like that is definitely gonna go down. It's been too long.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

It's been too many episodes.

SPEAKER_01 40:05

Yeah, well, they they put out that mid-season trailer, and all I gotta say is if the scenes that we got in the mid-season trailer are in these last two episodes, people are gonna lose their shit. I know, right? Because if they took footage from season two and they put in the mid-season trailer for season one, that's just another Marvel misdirect.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Like, and they've just been doing too much of that shit as you know, as of late, and nobody wants to deal with it anymore. Lying to me in the trailers. Gotta stop doing that. Lying to me in the trailers, bro. Like, that's gotta, that's gotta stop. Yeah, it's gotta stop. Yeah. But yeah, my predictions. Um, hopefully we're gonna see Frank. I don't think we're gonna see Cole North pivot in these last two episodes. I think that'll be sort of the beginning of episode two. I think we may see Matt actually um go to jail. I think that may be something that they gets explored here or escapes or something. Like you think he's gonna be very close to capture. Yeah. Because I'm pretty sure he starts out season two in the black suit.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

Um They'll set where they go from pictures look good though, in his black suit.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

The set pictures look good, but it's not Shadowland. Like, people need to stop getting their hopes up that a Shadowland. It's not Shadowland. There's no way they're doing that. They're not gonna turn Matt into a demon in season two of the show. It's not just not, it's not gonna happen. Like, I don't like I don't see it coming. Do you see it coming? Do you see Shadowland coming?

SPEAKER_00 41:32

No, I think that's a little a little outlandish. I think they gotta keep it somewhat grounded and and realistic.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Yeah. Well, Luke, Luke and Jessica and Danny were integral to the to the Shadowland storyline, like to bring to bring Matt back from the brink. But I don't know. I think it's gonna be more about the defenders and the vigil. It's it's gonna be a mini civil war. Like, you know, the original Civil War War in Marvel, where they had to sign those accords and you know, that kind of thing, same thing, but I just think it's gonna be like a microcosm of New York. Yeah, and we're still not gonna have Spider-Man involved, which is gonna be really stupid. But because like how are you gonna have an anti-vigilante task force and not talk about Spider-Man right in New York? That doesn't really make a lot of sense. Yeah, and there has been references to Spider-Man. There has been references to Spider-Man in this show, and you can see like a J.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Jonah Jameson, you know, cameo in in in season two, especially with an anti-task like Wilson Fisk and an anti-vigilante task force and and the J. Jonah Jameson of the MCU like are peanut butter and chocolate, man. They would they would go together great.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

Well, think about think about like this. He's the mayor of New York. J. Jonah Jameson is one of the biggest media figures in New York.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

For us to assume that Jay Jonah Jameson hasn't hasn't interviewed Wilson Fisk is just naive, right? And stupid. Right. Like that's not how the world would work. Yeah. You know? Like he's gotta be like that's that has had to happen somewhere off screen. Like, even on the run-up to the election, Jay Jonah Jameson is gonna interview the guy that is running for the mayor of New York. Yep. So that shit had to happen. You know, that's something you're just not gonna be able to get away from. That's a reality you cannot escape. That's right. So it is what it is, right? But um, but yeah, so listen, that's all we got for tonight. Guys, thank you so much for joining us for this episode. We're looking forward to episode uh eight and nine as much as you are. Uh, we will be back for those. Are they showing those individually? Are they doing a package deal again? Um, I haven't heard or read, so I don't know. Okay. Well, we'll definitely come back for a series finale too. We'll do a big wrap up. Uh, I'm gonna see if I can get some more people in on that one. Uh, I'd like to get some naysayers for the show that have just been like outright critical of it, just so we can kind of get some, you know, different perspective. Uh, I'd be interested to hear what people have thought about the show that didn't like it. Uh, but I definitely see some of the weaker points. Like, I think we're starting to really see. Those things stand out. Yeah. Like, you know, too many people in the cast. The fact that they had to kill people to make creative room for the stories that they wanted to tell. Like, I think that's something that should definitely be explored a little bit more. Um I'm starting to think that's Marvel's weakness is they don't know how to economize creatively. I'm just starting to see a lot of that. You know? Yeah. Um they gotta get better at it. They really gotta get better at it. Like, you know, look at look at the way that James Gunn did, you know, look at the way the way that James Gunn did Peacemaker and the way that they did the penguin. The creative economization on those shows was actually really good. Yeah. Like really good.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

Like they took out sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

I was gonna say Peacemaker was probably one of my favorite shows during that year when it came out. Peacemaker was great.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

Yeah, it was good, but they, you know, they they economized the time for the characters really well. And when the character stopped serving its purpose, for instance, Vigilante, like once he the you know, the jokes kind of got overwrought, they kind of drew him back a little bit, you know, especially when they brought in um they brought in Chris, they brought in Christopher's father, like and he started playing a role. Like he had to take screen time, and you know, they economized it really well. Um and I just don't think Marvel, like I don't think that's Marvel's super strength. I think I think one of the things that they get uh they get they get boxed in by is the Marvel method that they use for the on-screen stuff.

SPEAKER_02 45:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:34

So from what I hear, the script goes out to previs, and previs starts creating like action sequences and scenes, and then basically they build everything else around that. That's kind of the way that they've approached the movies. Whether they're approaching the series in the same way, I'm not a hundred percent sure. Um, and the other thing is they've got a budget now to do Daredevil, so they want to do the action sequences that are over the top, they want to sort of surpass what the Netflix series did as far as the action sequences.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

So yeah, here's here's where I I I will give credit to Marvel with Born Again. This is the first series because all the MCU projects, all the MCU TV projects at this point, they they looked at it with the Marvel method of this is a 10-hour movie, and we're just gonna cut them up into pieces. And that's how they made it. Daredevil Born Again is the first MCU TV series where they had a proper writer's room, they have a proper showrunner, that's kind of the vision of this of the of the show. Um that's not true.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Loki, no, Loki had a showrunner. Oh, yeah. Okay, okay. Loki did, so did yes, yes, yeah, so did WandaVision too. Both of those shows did. They had full writers' rooms and showrunners. Oh, okay. I was reading, I can't remember where I was reading it. So did Falcon and Winter Soldier too. They had the guy, um, the guy that directed um or wrote, sorry, uh Malcolm Spelman, the guy that wrote um Brave uh Brave New World. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

Well, I mean, I do know that they they did view their MCU TV projects as 10-hour movies in instead of like an episodic TV series, uh, with a traditional TV episodic series. They they just looked at it as long as it's like.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Nobody wants to watch episodic TV anymore. Like that that that ship is fucking sailed.

SPEAKER_02 47:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

Like that's for sitcoms, you know? Like resolving, resolving whatever the you know, whatever the challenge or the problem or the issue in in the can in the containment of the episode itself, that's a sitcom thing. We don't do that anymore, as far as like, you know, since we got to the golden age of TV, breaking bad, lost, oh yeah, justified, etc. There's always a larger arc kind of flowing over the top of everything.

SPEAKER_02 47:44

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

Yep. Cool. All right. Well, listen, guys, again, thank you for joining us. Uh, we really enjoyed having here. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to come back, and uh, we'll catch you on the next one. To be continued, I'm Frank McGuire. I'm Rich Herrera. Peace. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. And if you feel so inclined, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Podchaser, Stitcher, or Spotify. And as much as we appreciate the reviews, the best way to support the show is to tell your friends and family about Meanwhile back on the podcast. Hashtag spread the nerd. To stay up to date on all things meanwhile, head over to solo.to forward slash meanwhile pod. There you can sign up for our newsletter, follow us in all your favorite social media platforms, and find the newest and latest episodes, contests, and giveaways.