Understanding Trauma as a Gateway to Healing with Meghann Crane-Russ | Part 1 of 3

Discover the hidden & evident impacts of trauma, and the pathways to healing with Meghann Crane-Russ. Meghann is a therapist who specializes in supporting parents navigating medical complexity, medical trauma, traumatic loss and grief. Prior to private practice, she was an inpatient medical social worker in pediatric intensive care and neonatal intensive care and also did some work in PEDS palliative care. 

We unravel together the complexities of "big T" and "little t" trauma and the grief that countless families face. Meghann's profound understanding of the brain and body's response to trauma not only sheds light on the subject but also plants seeds of hope for anyone navigating the road to recovery. Together we explore a message of resilience, affirming that through compassion, understanding and insight, healing from trauma is not just a possibility but a journey well within our reach.

>>>Click here to download trauma resources<<<

Resources from this episode:

Bessel van de Kolk M.D.
The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma

Paul Conti
Trauma: The Invisible Epidemic: How Trauma Works and How We Can Heal From It

Connect with our Guest, Meghann Crane-Russ:
Noticing Growth, website
Instagram

Connect with Kara, host of The Special Needs Mom Podcast:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thespecialneedsmompodcast/
Website: https://www.kararyska.com/

Coaching Opportunities
Pathway to Peace {Group Coaching Program}: Schedule a Consult or Contact Me

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Transcript

Kara: 1:49

Meghann, I am so excited to be here with you today. Thank you so much for committing this time to share your wisdom and your expertise with this community. Welcome to the podcast.

Meghann: 2:02

Thank you so much. It's so great to be here. I really enjoyed preparing for this with you. It's been funny how excited we have been about this awful topic. I am a trauma therapist. I specialize in supporting parents navigating medical complexity, medical trauma, traumatic loss and grief. Prior to private practice, I was an inpatient medical social worker in pediatric intensive care and neonatal intensive care and did some work in PEDS palliative care. This is an area of trauma, specifically, that not a lot of people talk about. Not a lot of people support the thousands and millions of people that are experiencing this. So I'm really excited to be here and share this with your community.

Kara: 2:53

Why do you think it is that it's such an underserved community?

Meghann: 2:57

Because there's no easy fix.

Kara: 3:00

Well, I think you know I've shared this about child life specialists and I know you're close to child life specialists Like they choose in their work to enter some of the most difficult spaces to navigate emotionally. right? when you're going to hold space for a family who is going through all the things that we do. As it relates to the hospital, it really doesn't fall lightly over here on me that people choose to be there Because I didn't choose to be there and I wouldn't choose to be there. So I think that maybe is why is that it's not an easy place to be? I don't know.

Meghann: 3:32

Right, because, essentially, you're choosing to sit with someone who's experiencing undue hardship or suffering right, who has deep sorrow, and, as a professional, there's not really anything that I can do to fix it for you. Right, I can give you tools to navigate it, I can companion you, but I don't have a magic wand, and so I think sometimes helping professionals are just kind of like well, this is your life, deal with it, and it's really hard. Exactly, you don't have another choice. Just keep going, right. Except how you go about it, how you learn about yourself, your brain and your body, and how your brain and your body reacts to stress which is all that we're going to be talking about today can help you navigate it more adaptively Exactly, and that's why Meghann and I have put so much time into kind of planning out the topic here and exactly what we want to cover and help you understand.

Kara: 4:30

I mean, the whole point is to apply it to your life, and I think maybe we'll mention now what you said earlier, like why, why are we emphasizing this particular topic and what do you see as the value?

Meghann: 4:44

Yeah, you know it was funny because we were talking earlier. I was literally brushing my teeth thinking about how jazzed you and I have been, you know, when I sent you that reel the other day and just like that we're so excited and like the why is really because there are a lot of mental health stressors that we are not very good at treating schizophrenia, bipolar, right, those are kind of chronic conditions that you have to live with, right, like any other chronic medical condition. But trauma we are so good at treating. We have really effective, evidence-based treatments that are really helpful and can actually like heal the parts of your brain that have been impacted by trauma. And so why it's so exciting is like the more that you learn about it, the more that you understand what's actually going on in your brain and your body, which we will be talking all about. There's something that you can do about it. There's tangible improvement that you can have.

Kara: 5:41

And I think, like you said, it can. It's funny, it doesn't feel like a heavy topic to me and I think it's because I totally geek out in the science and for the reason that I think I connected to hope that as we learn, not just intellectually, but as we actually then go apply this and do all the different opportunities available, it brings hope because these are very hard things we have to do in our life but we don't have to suffer and, like you said, there's healing opportunity.

Meghann: 6:12

We are on the same wavelength. You started that sentence with. This is heavy and my mind went and hopeful.

Kara: 6:19

Yeah, I'm like. I feel like having this in life for sure, yes, but not in talking about trauma. So let's dive in. We're going to go layers deep, ladies, so buckle up. So let's start with a baseline. That's get all in the same wavelength. What is trauma? How do you define trauma?

Meghann: 6:37

I define trauma as a real or perceived life altering or life ending event. So your life is significantly impacted by this thing that happened and it causes a fundamental change in how your brain works and how your autonomic nervous system exists in your body.

Kara: 7:02

And that's the part that change I think I want to highlight. There's another definition that I had heard in some of my studying. It's from Dr Paul Conti, and he defined trauma very similarly, but he describes it as something that overwhelms our coping skills and leaves us differently moving forward. And I particularly like that because I think it really emphasizes that you are not going to be the same person after trauma as before. That's the whole point, right. But again back to what we said it doesn't mean that there's no hope here, but it does really mean that your brain is actually changed, Correct? I think that's really fascinating.

Meghann: 7:39

Yeah, and when people talk about trauma, I think a lot of people automatically go to post-traumatic stress disorder. Right, this diagnosis. It's in the DSM-5. The diagnosis is literally like you have to have a life ending event or witness a ending event. Interesting. I didn't know that If you don't meet that criteria, according to the DSM-5, you technically can't ever qualify for PTSD, which means that if you are physically abused as a child or sexually abused as a child, you couldn't have a diagnosis formally of PTSD, which is bananas, right. So again, not life altering event, right, Not necessarily like life ending, but like that your life is significantly different.

Kara: 8:27

Why do you think PTSD gets so much play when there's other trauma-induced disorders that are not well talked about?

Meghann: 8:34

I think in big part because predominantly a lot of the trauma treatment modalities were developed specifically within the VA and for veterans and that shell shock to PTSD, the evolution existed really in serving that population and then the body keeps a score, which is the first Bible, for lack of a better term. Major publication around the neurobiology of trauma by Dr Bessel van der Kolk was published in 2014.

Kara: 9:12

I did not know that. Actually, I didn't ever think about when it was published and I am shocked that it's so recently. That's crazy.

Meghann: 9:18

Yeah, I was in graduate school. I didn't even learn, you know, trauma-informed care. You know, in my training was very new. We have come so far in 10 years in terms of what our understanding of what trauma is and being trauma-informed within healthcare, within mental health care, within schools. right, the conversation has changed so much in the last 10 years, thankfully.

Kara: 9:46

Yeah, right, and I'm thinking now like, oh my gosh, levi was diagnosed in 2011. So I'm like, yeah, so that's why it was like a desolate forest with nobody there and we were all still figuring it out. And not to say that we have it all figured out and there'll be no more learning from here. But yay, as you're saying is, we have figured out so many ways to help and heal. So let's go back to the definition and just getting clarity around trauma. I think a lot of people, when they think of, like I was traumatized, they think of a very specific event that happened, like, oh, you were in a car accident, you're going to be traumatized. What was helpful for me is recognizing trauma is not an event, it's an experience. Yes, I think we had talked about differentiating what's commonly called a big T trauma and a little T trauma. Maybe you can explain that a little bit.

Meghann: 10:41

Yes. So a big T trauma is kind of more classically like what you would think of of like a car accident or an assault or some mass shooting. If you were a victim like present. Those are big T traumas.

Kara: 10:57

Something that you can point to specifically, that you're aware that it happened and you know exactly what happened, I think would be a big T trauma.

Meghann: 11:04

Yes, and that there was a definite sense of a before and an after. So even I work a lot with women who experience birth trauma or ski accident and then you have to be airlifted or what. big T trauma. Little T traumas are more along the lines of, and we'll talk more about this later but, like adverse childhood experiences or even medical trauma, exist in little T traumas, where it's kind of like a culmination of smaller little events that added up all together have a big impact, but you might not be able to say, oh, this moment in time, but it's like a cascading event of all of these little things. This was disruptive and this was disruptive and this was disturbing and this was disruptive, right, and all of those together that can even be like a caregiver, I mean, that is like a parent, right who was maybe emotionally neglectful or emotionally abusive.

Meghann: 12:03

Right. And so all those little experiences, right like, lead to the same neurobiology, the same trauma response in the brain and the body after something little that happened over and over and over again.

Kara: 12:19

Yeah, I think that's so important to understand this piece because I think a lot of times again because, like you said, it's the same nervous system experience that's happening whether it's big T or a little T. But the tricky thing is about the little T is sometimes you can't actually figure out what happened, like what the event was or where the particular emotional or physical experience that you're having came from exactly. And that's why I think it can be a tricky little thing and it's important to, I think, acknowledge like you don't have to necessarily know all the details of the particular thing, of that little T trauma, to be able to still heal it.

Meghann: 12:56

Yes, and the amount of empathy or support or understanding that you may get from people around you for a big T versus a little T can often be significantly different, right.

Kara: 13:08

Oh my gosh yeah.

Meghann: 13:10

Oh, it's not that big of a deal, it's not that? Oh, come on, like it's, you're fine, right, like, get over it, right, you didn't have something terrible happen. No, But I had a lot of bad things happen.

Kara: 13:20

Yeah, and that's why, again, we go back to like this is how you uniquely experience it. We're going to talk later about what we're calling old trauma, new trauma and when we put it all together, I guess it's just so important in all of this to have validation that, like that was your experience and maybe it was like unrecognizable to another human being, but for you it wasn't. For you, it was your body's experiencing it as trauma. So I think it's just another place to have so much compassion for ourselves that we're experiencing it the way that we're experiencing it, and it's not wrong but also for other people. You know that they are going to have different experiences than we are.

Meghann: 14:01

Well, the word trauma means wound.

Kara: 14:04

Yeah, I guess that's a great point, like if we look at other contexts, right.

Meghann: 14:08

yeah, and you know whether you have one huge laceration right, A huge cut versus bruises, and like your nose is broken and you have a black eye right, and like you have smaller injuries all over your body, what's to say that the one big wound is worse.

Kara: 14:29

Yeah, that's a great analogy, I guess, is what we're looking for. Okay, so now we have like a better definition, if you will, of what is trauma. So let's like look at what are the classic signs that one might be experiencing trauma or the effects of trauma. What are things that you look for when you are supporting people in your practice?

Meghann: 14:49

Yeah, so I'd say some of the most classic signs are what are called the intrusive symptoms, and so that is where elements of the trauma and memories of the trauma come to mind without you inviting them. Right, and so that might be flashbacks, vivid memories, nightmares. Other classic signs are the mood dysregulation that you have after a trauma, right, so, maybe like heightened in anxiety, right you, maybe you experience more anxiety than you did before. Or depressive type symptoms. Alterations in cognition that's a fancy word of saying like how you think about things has fundamentally changed and you know how you perceive the world around you has changed, and so some themes that often come up in trauma and the beliefs that we make after traumatic experiences is around safety right, we lose our fundamental sense of safety or control. I mean the illusion that we had control in life before this event happened. Responsibility, right, that we put an undue amount of responsibility on ourselves, shame or guilt or responsibility on other people. Right, so like, maybe their responsibility isn't self driven, it's like externally driven.

Kara: 16:11

Would you call that more blame?

Meghann: 16:12

Yes, yeah, so you know, other symptoms can include like avoidance of triggers or like avoidance of things that remind you of the trauma, especially in kids. Like repetitive play around, like parts of the event are kind of like a sign. and then you know, we'll get to this later but like also just changing how your body reacts, right and like how your body experiences and responds to stress.

Meghann: 16:41

your autonomic nervous system is more activated, Kind of like a sense of hyper arousal right, Constantly scanning for threat where maybe you didn't exist in the world that way before.

Kara: 16:54

We're going to look at your nervous system and again we're going to go into a lot more detail later. But if we look at the nervous system, a visual that's not great, but it's what I have now is your nervous system is already kind of a pot that has the water already to the top, the tipping point, if you will. And so in that hyper arous state you're going to more often have it overflow and that could look like a lot of different things, but that's kind of what you're saying. Right, it's like that. The experience that's kind of classic is that there's that constant hyper- aroused state. So little things that may not otherwise have been challenging or confronting now have become, because of this change in body state, correct. Ok, yeah, got it, yeah, and so in tha t hyper- aroused state you're going to see what more?

Meghann: 17:39

Either more either activation around level of agitation, irritability, anxiousness, anger or kind of in the opposite direction, kind of checking out, numbing, depersonalization with drawing right and that's kind of that classic fight flight versus freeze collapse, and we'll talk more about that in the next episode. These polarized ways of being and that any little stressor kind of causes your body to have an outsized response where maybe before you wouldn't have had such an outsized response to an added stressor.

Kara: 18:21

Yeah, and to emphasize, this is before any sort of treatment, right. So this is when you are yes In the impact of your trauma experience and you haven't kind of crossed over to the point where you're recovering, just to kind of clarify that right that you don't have to stay there. That's the point here. I'm like you don't have to stay there. Yes, you will be there. I can guarantee all of us listening to this podcast have been there and maybe in some places still are. Ok, any other thing you would add to the brain markers of trauma or any other part that just really comes up a lot when you kind of look at trauma living its everyday life out in the wild.

Meghann: 19:01

Yeah, with clients that I work with there's especially with our newer to me kind of come again seeing me in the aftermath of either a traumatic event or in a trauma episode. You know just this sense of what is wrong with me. I don't feel like I felt before. I've never felt this way.

Meghann: 19:19

My brain's not working the way that I know it to work, right, because of that state of hyper arousal that we were just speaking about. That's where the majority of your attention goes, and so being able to concentrate on other things or problem solve or use those executive functioning skills that are in your prefrontal cortex and we'll go a lot more into this in the next episode. You know the sense of like brain fog, right, or like forgetfulness, or I just I couldn't remember what someone just said to me right there's like some cognitive changes where your brain doesn't feel like it used to in terms of its level of effectiveness, and that is because your brain is focused on assessing threat in your environment. That is what has happened, right? The most primitive part of your brain after experiencing a trauma kind of takes over and is geared on keeping you safe, and everything else is secondary.

Kara: 20:19

It's like when my kids are saying mom, mom, mom, mom, mom, mom, and I'm like, hold on a second, I'm trying to think about how to make this recipe. It's like you can't do two things at one time with that brain, no matter how good you are. It's kind of like that right.

Meghann: 20:34

You know and that's why we're talking about all of this right, it's not about how good, it's, just not about you. It's how our bodies are designed right, and we'll talk about that in the next episode. But when you really view this from the autonomic lens and understand from like a biological, physiological perspective what's going on, that you aren't choosing to be this way. This is just how our brains and bodies react, right? That is the first step to being able to let go of the shame around how we are emotionally and behaviorally experiencing this trauma response.

Kara: 21:14

Mm-hmm. Oh man, there's like so many things I'm excited to talk about right now. Yeah, it's not about you. It's, I think, a really great way of saying this. This is not a moral character flaw or anything that actually has to do with you. It has to do with your nervous system. The good news is, if you are experiencing what you're experiencing, you have the capacity to heal. So I always like to tell people like great, okay, good, what you're telling me right now means that you have a healthy, functioning brain that is coming up with a story. So we have a lot to work with here. This is good, okay. When I listen and study and read on trauma, I'm always a little annoyed because what's left out is what we're calling chronic trauma. So let's go in here, because this again is like the underserved area that I see and I'd love to talk about. Like define what is chronic trauma? How does it differentiate from just your standard everyday trauma?

Meghann: 22:16

Yes. So I'm gonna kind of take a step back and we're gonna start at a traumatic event, right. That kind of went back to the concept of big T versus little T. So a traumatic event is an event, right, kind of like a one-time occurrence that had a defined beginning and end, where during it you were not safe, right, or like experiencing something that was like overwhelming to your autonomic nervous system, and then there was an end, followed by a period of safety, right.

Meghann: 22:47

And a traumatic episode is more along this notion of chronic trauma, right, this ongoing thing where maybe there was a defined beginning, right, which is the traumatic event, that's the onset of the episode, but then that event has consequences that have continued into the present and those consequences are likely to continue into the future. So think of it like dropping a pebble in a pond, and that pebble is the event, and then the ripples, how they keep going out, that's the episode, right. It just kind of like keeps going. So, living in that ongoing traumatic episode, what you are experiencing is what we call ongoing traumatic stress. It just keeps going, and so being able to cope with the uncertainty around that is what the task is when you are navigating a traumatic episode.

Kara: 23:45

Yeah, and I think I can probably speak for all of the moms listening is we know this very well, like we know the gravity of what you're explaining because we are living it.

Kara: 23:56

If I just do a snapshot of our life, using myself as an example, I can look at the day that I have very distinct, clear memories of where we were told that he had a ginormous brain tumor. They didn't use that term, but they did say it's a doozy. so that was the day right. And so then we just jumped in and we have this ongoing ripple effect and actually the visual as you were explaining the pebble in the pond with the ripples I was like okay, yeah, there was a boulder tossed in and then we had the ripples, but now, like in a little bit of a mud slide, land slide, whatever they're called like, there keeps to being like this little mid-sized pebble oh, that's a big one going in Like, and so it's almost like there's these ripples, but then there's also other little boulders and pebbles getting tossed in all around. So we're having like some crazy lakes over here with all of the ripples and the pebbles that are part of our life.

Meghann: 24:51

Yes, and you talked about that initial diagnosis, right. And then what happens with trauma? Those traumatic memories are stored differently in your brain. They're not tied to time, and so when you found out about Levi's recurrence, you kind of get taken back to the initial boulder that was dropped. So when you have these additional events in the episode, it can be very complex to navigate and it can kind of feel like you're going backwards, right, and like maybe you've done all this work and like maybe that you have processed what you went through before, but it still takes you back a little bit, right.

Meghann: 25:33

And then it also kind of re-emphasizes that need to stay hyperaroused about the safety in the future, because maybe you can get through something hard one time and you're like, okay, we're gonna be okay. And then it happens again and your brain says, fool me once on me, fool me twice, no way, we're never gonna forget this.

Kara: 25:51

Mm-hmm, my gosh. I relate to that so much. I'll give a funny story here. Is that so Levi's recurrence was diagnosed in the fall of 2021. And it was the MRI.

Kara: 26:04

Right before that that I was walking through the very familiar halls of the downstairs basement where they have the MRI. So it's the same lights, the same sounds like. The moment that I've been in very, yeah, smells very, very much. So I've been in those moments very often and in this particular moment it was not overwhelming. I wasn't like, oh my gosh, I'm scared, I have to run.

Kara: 26:26

But there was a distinct sense of I don't even know exactly what word, but it was a lack of okayness. This is not a good thing going on here for my nervous system and unease, right Again, it was very subtle but because I was like, okay, we're 10 years out, we're rock solid, we're good to go, I was like, okay, now's the time that I'm gonna start back up in therapy and we're gonna work through this. And little did I know that actually, that engagement with the therapist was gonna be dealing with the recurrence and not as much healing the past 10 years. But anyhow, I just think it's kind of interesting how I had that awareness and then boom, little like tidal wave in my pond.

Meghann: 27:09

And I wanna just pause us there for a minute. We have, as humans, the capacity to navigate really awful things adaptively right. We can go through really hard things and we have the ability to process these experiences in adaptive way. In adaptive way, get out on the other side, okay right. When we can't do that, that's where the trauma arises, that's where the wounding is. So I'm gonna guess that, with the support and the work that you were doing during the recurrence, that you were actually able to process it more adaptively than you would have if you didn't have that ongoing support.

Kara: 27:55

Definitely yeah, I think I didn't escape the whole experience without probably adding to the trauma tank. But if I look back to that time, I look at how I was feeling and I felt very capable of processing. I felt good I mean as good as you can for going through that. Yeah, I think I see what you're saying. I guess I wanna put this in here because this is something I reflect to the women that I work with is that I kind of relate to them as, like you know, there's like runners, and then there's marathon runners and then there's ultra marathon runners that just have this mind-blowing capacity to do what they do. Well, I remind the gals that I'm working with, for whatever reason, you're being called to be an ultra marathon level runner in processing your emotions, in healing trauma, in all of this work, and I relate to them as wholly capable of doing that and that. Yeah, just for whatever reason, you're going to get very, very good at this, because this is what your life is asking for you.

Meghann: 29:03

That's a great analogy, you know, and what happened was not good, but you navigated through it as best you could. Right, you did a good job at navigating through it. You didn't look back and think, what should I could have had those alterations and cognition around responsibility or blame or whatever right. So was it easy? No, did you get through it as best you could? Yes, that's being adaptive.

Kara: 29:33

Yeah, and then continuing to pick up the pieces as you recognize, oh yeah, like I got through that, okay. But there's this part over here, like when you're talking about you know the experience and kind of going through that, what is wrong with me? I find that those conversations internal conversations for me are not during the event, and I think for most people, like you're surviving, but it's when you're kind of safe. That's when those questions come up. I'm like who am I now? So we're gonna continue to talk about that, okay, anything before we move on to a different part of trauma, about the, you know, traumatic event versus episodic, chronic trauma and all of that.

Meghann: 30:15

You know, not minimizing the impact that living with ongoing traumatic stress can have on your brain and your body.

Kara: 30:23

Yeah.

Meghann: 30:24

I don't love the term self-care, right Like I know.

Kara: 30:27

I know the ladies here, though they know they're not supposed. I know they're rolling their eyes, I know it, I know it, but we're changing this. So you're gonna stay with us, because we don't have any other words for it yet, but don't leave. Okay, we're gonna talk about taking care of yourself.

Meghann: 30:42

Yes, just as an ultramarathon runner, I'm gonna run with this. Ha ha right, Like, just as an ultramarathon runner has to take care of their body to be able to sustain the amount of energy that they need to be able to do that, they have to take care of their bodies, they have to take care of their mind to be able to do that. It's the same thing when you're living with ongoing traumatic stress.

Kara: 31:08

Again run with the analogy. It's like I picture, like if that runner notices that they're getting a little bit of a wear on their foot two miles in, I guarantee you they're gonna stop and deal with it. They're not gonna just keep running and then to where they actually can't run at a certain point in their however many 200 miles they're running. So yes, ladies, I know sometimes we cannot see how, because we look at self care and think I can't do anymore. Kara, don't even talk to me about it, but stick with us enough, because it's maybe not as hard as we think either. We don't have to work so hard. A lot of us are trained to be very intellectual, so we try to think and work ourselves out of this whole trauma situation. It doesn't work, by the way, cause I've tried it. So I think that's the thing is like we might actually have to work less hard than like we have been, and so that's good news.

Meghann: 32:07

The hardest part is accepting and giving yourself permission to prioritize your needs.

Kara: 32:15

Mm-hmm.

Kara: 32:16

We're gonna talk about this in a future episode, in one of the ones we're recording, so actually we won't talk about it right now. But stay tuned, because we're gonna talk about this tension, that trauma tells you that you can't, or you shouldn't, or the new thoughts you have feels like survival means I gotta keep running, I can't stop, like your body's really telling you that you won't be okay in the tension there because you have to stop. So we're gonna talk about that. We're not gonna leave you hanging on that. But for now let's move to just kind of as we're getting this foundation for trauma. I don't think this conversation would be complete without addressing the backpacks that we're all carrying in to the hospital or to the school or the treatment room when we have these diagnosis as their kids, the backpacks of all the things that we've gone through already in our life. And so we're calling this old trauma versus new trauma. So why don't you talk to us a little bit about what we're calling old trauma and give us a little bit of a foundation on that?

Meghann: 33:19

Yeah, so old trauma would be kind of maybe things that aren't actively happening to you that are hard right, like related to your life now, but there are things that you've gone through before that were traumatic or wounding. So AC Es, or adverse childhood experiences, is actually a study done by Kaiser in the mid 90s where they surveyed 1,700 of their members on their experiences in childhood and then also surveyed them on their chronic health conditions and found kind of a direct connection correlation between the amount of awful bad things that happened in childhood and the occurrence of chronic health conditions. So there's 10 questions on the ACEs screener and they ask about physical and emotional abuse in childhood, physical neglect and emotional neglect in childhood, and then what's termed household dysfunction, which is either a parent with mental illness, incarceration, domestic violence, substance abuse or even divorce. and the more ACEs scores that you have, the more likely you are to have issues into adulthood around. Like some of the chronic conditions are COPD, different heart conditions, certain types of cancer, mental illness, substance abuse, type two diabetes and, again like the reason, the brain and the body are the same thing.

Meghann: 34:53

The brain is just part of the body and so we'll talk about this a lot more in the next episode. But essentially when you're in that state of hyperarousal all the time, it takes a toll on your body right. So back to that Ultramarathon runner with the heart foot at mile two. If you don't stop and take care of that blister in mile two, it's gonna fester and get bigger and get worse and it's gonna be this awful thing by mile 10.

Kara: 35:17

Yeah.

Meghann: 35:18

And you're more likely to have more injury. Right, like something else is likely to happen. Right, because you have this thing from before that you have been carrying along with you. So what makes adverse childhood experiences and childhood trauma different is when you think about our autonomic nervous system, you know it's designed to run a hike.

Meghann: 35:42

We see a bear, we stand really quiet and then we run right, we flee right and that bear chases us. We get really loud, we fight, we try to like get it to leave us alone. We're not really thinking about what to do, we're just reacting because that's what our body does to threat, right, with adverse childhood experiences, essentially, the bear is living in that home with you. You can't get away from it. Your little developing body, your little developing nervous system, is in a state of hyperarousal or hypoarousal all the time. So people that have a history of adverse childhood experiences or a history of past trauma, when they experience another trauma right, we talked about that pot of water that was full. You're going into this diagnosis with your child or this traumatic event with the child already with a full pot and then you're getting, you know, a soup pot of water dumped on top of you. Right, you are going to overflow.

Kara: 36:38

Again, I feel like one could hear that and be like, well, crap, that's a bummer, because I checked off most of those on those boxes, that list of 10 or some of them even, and some of them felt pretty big, and so it could feel like dang. Now I'm even less okay. But then I want to point back to the early part of our conversation where, as hard and gosh heartbreaking, right, when you think about a little nervous system developing in a way that just it's just heartbreaking. but there's also hope, right, because even with the ACEs, even with the old trauma, healing is possible. Yes, something important to kind of repressence ourselves to that. I mean, I think the point of putting this part in the conversation is just cues for yourself to notice. Huh, I might have a little bit old, a little bit of new, and it's very likely that you do. I think there's a lot of people that do. Most people, would you say most people, yeah,

Meghann: 37:43

I mean, unfortunately, that's just part of our human experience, right? And you know again, where we're starting in this series is insight and understanding. We're gonna get to what to do about it, right, but right now is just, you can't make change if you don't understand what's going on inside you. So we're starting with understanding and insight.

Kara: 38:05

Yeah, it makes me think. So, you know, I also work in leadership and executive coaching, and so I'll be working with teams and whatever problem they're working on, they're gonna try to figure out what to do. Right, and it's so funny to watch people start solving a problem before they even know what it is. So we'll pause and be like, okay, let's just define what we're actually fixing before we decide what we're gonna do. And so I think it's here, right, it's like, okay, we can fix this. Like we know we can, or heal it, maybe it's the better word. But let's just be really clear, like if understanding where we are, not from a place of judgment, but just a place of like okay, this is where we are and this is where we're starting from.

Kara: 38:45

So I wanna turn back to and this would be medical trauma, but this would also be what I'm gonna call behavioral trauma. So there's many of us that are dealing with some or both of these areas, and then there's some that have maybe either, or so people that have a lot of medical surprises and scary situations, and then there's some that have more behavioral. And I think where I think because it's my personal experience is when you have somebody who's either very verbally or physically violent or explosive in the home. So I just wanted to kind of put this in here as, like this is part of the traumas we're talking about and I just kind of wanna have you speak to like well, what do we do about this? Like, not even like cause we're gonna do that in the third episode. It's kind of like where do we go from here? But I think we really wanna address this, as this is part of all of it and kind of understanding where it fits.

Meghann: 39:37

Yeah, so medical trauma is a diff. We'll all kind of speak to them separately. So medical trauma is definitely a different beast because it is often more of a traumatic episode. Right, the ongoing.

Meghann: 39:50

We are conditioned from a very young age, right, like watching Doc McStuffins, right, our kids watching Doc McStuffins, right, that like doctors are good and helpful, right, and like you go to the hospital and you go to the doctor and like everything's gonna be okay, that's all you have to do, right? Except then like you go to the doctor and everything's not okay and they tell you that they don't actually know if everything is gonna be okay. But we have such a strong conditioning to trust medical professionals, and so then, when either something doesn't go how we are expecting, or if there's a mistake, right, or a breach of trust, and then we have to keep going back there to get care and to be taken care of. But you're essentially like going back to the bears den over and over and over again, hoping that you're gonna be okay, and so it's like a re-exposure. It's not uncommon for that to be really triggering, and so we'll talk about this in episode three. But like really being aware of what those triggers are for yourself, right, actively coping with them, actively navigating them, figuring out ways that you can cope, what you need to cope, right.

Meghann: 41:07

And then behavioral trauma. This is such a sore spot, it's so tender, because your body is designed to protect you from a threat. Right, I'm going to give a silly little example. I was picking up my kid from water polo practice last week. I bent down to talk to the coach. I turned around and there was a water polo ball coming to my eye socket but my hand instictfully went up. I mean it hit me. It was too slow, but I reacted before I even knew what was happening. Right, because my body has this threat detection system that's on all the time. That isn't a conscious process to protect me, right, whether it's a water polo ball or your child, your instinct is going to be to protect yourself. It's not a choice, it's an instinct. That's the tender spot.

Kara: 42:12

It's so tender because I think that if you really think about the situation where your body thinks it's not safe, it's not okay, that's again heartbreaking. And then when we add on top that it's an environment or circumstance that we're not going to choose to leave because it's our child, what I see and I'm sure you see it as well is that it becomes quite confusing Because and I have actually seen a lot of people misplace their hate for what's happening onto their child so then we add shame onto how they're relating to their child because, again, they're confused. I don't ever see that they hate their child. They really hate that behavior like and I totally get it yes, I do too but I think separating out the two and allowing yourself to hate the behavior but to recognize it's not the child that you hate and it's so it's been so freeing and so healing to people and to bring that space of compassion.

Kara: 43:11

Of course this is so confusing and so hard to navigate and then just jumping back to the medical trauma also. But you have your experience as a parent, in this case a mom, your experience of kind of continually going back to this, the bear's den. Then you have your child's experience. That may or may not be different, and actually what I'll share is that it also is confusing, because in some ways, my son loves the hospital, like he really wants to go back, and I'm like I have different thoughts and feelings about that.

Kara: 43:48

And I get it, though, because think about it he's taken care of there, he doesn't have to deal with the stresses of school, he doesn't have to deal, like he has people that love it because he's so sweet, people love and don't on him there, and so he has all these great associations with it. And then there's the parts where I know that also our part he doesn't talk about as much, but there's been a lot of things that don't fall under all those categories there, right, like a lot of really scary things. So there's just so much to navigate, like there's so many pieces to this. I think it's important to address that. That is part of this, and it all still works, you know, in terms of like healing and all of that. It's all still possible for us.

Meghann: 44:28

You know your primary role as a parent in that moment, in that space, regardless of how you feel, is to make your child feel safe and secure in you. So what we know about parents and children that go through traumatic experiences together is that if the parent is providing a sense of safety and security for the child, the child isn't going to develop trauma or PTSD. Right, Because they feel safe. Right, it's the parent who does.

Meghann: 45:02

That makes a lot of sense, and so really your role in that setting is to help your child feel safe and secure.

Kara: 45:14

And what I'll add here, because I think a lot of people go to, is like okay, but I don't know the future, I don't know if everything's going to be okay, right. So the work is to find the things that you are sure of and for me that look like I'm sure that I'm going to be here for you yes, Within my control, I like I could, you know, have an accident, not get to the hospital, but I will be here the things that you can be solid on in finding those. Again, foundations not only gives you the ability to assure and to give that sense of security to your child, but I think it helps us a lot as well. Like, how will we show up that? Has this be okay in this very not okay situation?

Meghann: 45:55

Right, and, as their what ifs come up, right, being honest about like, you know what I don't know, but we're going to figure it out if that does happen. I'm here, we are good at solving problems right? You're a good thinker, I'm a good thinker. These are the people here that we know that can help us. These are the people that we have in our life that we trust. This is what we know so far. Right, and if that happens, we'll figure it out.

Kara: 46:19

Yeah, definitely Okay. So before we wrap up this first episode, I wanted to put a little snippet in here about, culturally, what I see out there floating on the ground, and I feel like there can be kind of a hardening of ourselves because of what we've been through. I don't know, like I don't even know how to put words to it exactly, but I guess I just want to say, okay, yeah, we're talking about trauma and we're going to empower it and say, like, this is very real, it is happening, it's asking for some attention. But and I guess what's the cautionary statement that you might add in this place?

Meghann: 46:57

You know, I often tell new clients or clients in America with you know, old school mental health was kind of this mentality of like what's wrong with you, you know what's wrong with you to cause you to feel this way. Okay, you have anxiety, you have depression, you have OCD, you have whatever. You know a litany of diagnoses, right, A trauma informed approach is not what's wrong with you that's causing you to feel this way, but what have you been through that's causing you to feel this way? Separating feeling from action. Right, feeling from behavior.

Meghann: 47:32

You have a lot of reasons to not feel okay. You have a lot of reasons to be overwhelmed, to be hyperaroused, right, to be struggling. But, just like we talked about a minute ago about not liking the behavior, it's what you do with that feeling. You can choose to sit there, right, you can choose to really focus on what you've been through or you can focus on what you can do now, shifting the meaning that was made, learning about how it's impacting you so that you can make different choices. When you have those feelings, you're going to act differently. You're going to do something else about it.

Kara: 48:11

Thank you. I think you put that so kindly and gently and I think it's important. It's a call forth to recognize yes, we have these feelings, feelings are valid. But separating out that just because we have a feeling doesn't give us the go ahead to then play out or react to those feelings, because some of these actions or reactions could be a little bit harmful, like as in if you're yelling at your child, yeah, it's going to happen, okay, let's not say okay, while I was traumatized is what I've been through, so this is just what I do now, yes, and so I think that's where we're not excusing behavior in any way. Yes, we're being compassionate when stuff happens, but also we're not going to stop there.

Meghann: 48:58

I'm just going to roll that into the next episode that we're going to be talking about Is the connection between the two things that we're going to be talking about what happens in your brain when you have trauma, how it impacts your body and then how that brain and body response manifests emotionally and behaviorally.

Kara: 49:20

Perfect, okay, good. Well, with that I think you said it so well we're going to wrap this episode Such a good foundation that I think we created. So the next episode which you're going to get next week if you're listening to this at the time it comes out is going to be on the neurobiology Really diving into the autonomic nervous system. So with that, we will see you on the next episode. Yes, we will.