The Special Needs Mom Podcast

Reclaiming Time: Mindful Digital Consumption for Anxious Moms with Jennie Ketchum Crooks

• Kara Ryska

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Today’s conversation is one that I know many of us can relate to – balancing anxiety and our relationship with digital media. I’m thrilled to have Jennie Ketcham Crooks join us! Jennie is a clinical social worker, anxiety and OCD specialist, and founder of the West Coast Anxiety Clinic. Jennie has also been involved in research at the University of Washington, guest lectured at Harvard University, and appeared on popular television shows including Headline News, The View, and Oprah. She’s here to unpack some powerful insights on navigating anxiety, managing our “shiny rectangle” (a.k.a. our phones), and making space for true connection.

We dive deep into what makes anxiety tick, especially for special needs moms, and how our smartphones can be both a blessing and a trap. Jennie shares practical tips from her 30-day program in her book Look Up, which helps us rethink our digital consumption and build healthier relationships with technology. We also share a few laughs about managing “Brenda,” the little voice in our heads that always seems to have something to say!

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Website: https://www.kararyska.com/

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Speaker:

Hi, I'm Kara, life coach, wife and mom to four incredible and unique children. It wasn't all that long ago that my son received a diagnosis that had my world come crashing down. I lacked the ability to see past the circumstances, which felt impossible. And the dreams I once had for my life and family felt destroyed. Fast forward past many years of surviving and not at all thriving, and you'll see a mom who trusts that she can handle anything that comes her way and has access to the power and confidence that once felt so lacking. I created the special needs mom podcast to create connection and community with moms who find themselves feeling trapped and with no one who really understands. My intention is to spark the flair of possibility. In your own life and rekindle your ability to dream. This isn't a podcast about your special needs child. This is a podcast about you. If you are a mom who feels anxious, alone, or stuck, then you are in the right place. Welcome.

Speaker 2:

Hello, and welcome to the Special Needs Mom podcast. I'm so glad you're here. And as I record this episode, I am finding myself so grateful for this particular day where it's just beautiful, which is for me, helping me orient to some things to be grateful for. I went on a walk this morning and it was really clear. And if I walk to the top of the hill by my house, I can see the ocean, which is pretty cool. It's pretty far away, but you know, I could see it on a clear day. And I just kept thinking about how, because most days there's like fog or clouds, or I can't necessarily see it so clearly, but I just keep thinking about how it's always there, even when I can't see it. And for me, it just was kind of a metaphor for life of just good reminders, even when we can't see the good or the hope or whatever it is that's out there that we're desperate for. It's often there. And ultimately I think it's an invitation into maybe trust, maybe faith and yeah, probably a little bit of both. Okay. Let me tell you a little bit about this episode that we have in today. I'm really excited to bring it to you. It's Essentially a guest I brought on because of the intersection of topics that I am personally interested in. And then I know also many of you are as well, obviously it's not, it's not just for me here. And we're bringing in topics about anxiety and what she describes as digital consumption. I think we could also even just say social media being on our phone. And I've personally contemplated with particularly the digital consumption piece of it as like, what are my next steps? Because I'm not necessarily liking the way the relationship is going and I haven't kind of landed yet. And so I personally am really leaning into Curiosity and this conversation in particular was very thought provoking for me and something that I will be using as a tool to answer that question, what's next? And in this topic, and I think it's particularly interesting because of the tricky situation that a lot of us find ourselves in and having digital or virtual or social media connections be the only connection we have with the special needs mom community. We definitely address that, and it's a very, again, it's a thought provoking conversation. And here's the good news is it's also a very actionable episode where we're giving actual, I hate to say tips and tricks because it sounds so corny, but really, you know, we point towards tools and options that you have that are immediately accessible, or maybe take a little bit more to, to gain access to and, kind of everything in between. And ultimately, this is an episode about how to improve our meaningful real world connections. And better align with our values. Let me tell you a little bit about Jenny herself. So her full name is Jenny Ketchum Crooks. She is the founder of West Coast Anxiety Clinic, a clinical licensed social worker, and an anxiety and OCD specialist. And prior to starting the West Coast Anxiety Clinic, she was the director of clinical education at Seattle Anxiety Specialist. And before that, a lead medical social worker at Polyclinic. Jenny has been involved in research at the University of Washington, a guest lecture at Harvard University, and appeared on a number of popular television shows, including Headline News, The View, and Oprah. That's fancy. Am I right? And before we get into the meat of this episode, I want to pause real quick. And share about a brand that I was recently introduced to, and I'm obsessed with. It's called Cozy Earth. And, you know, it's the cozy season, so I feel like this is very fitting. So the pants that I have fallen in love with are called the Studio Jogger, they are the softest pants I have ever worn. and they are perfect for our life. Stuff stuff like that. You know, you might have to spend the night at the hospital and wear the same clothes, like for the night and for the day. And they work for that. And they work for, jumping to all those appointments to school and all the things. So they work for our life. And that's why I love them. And you know, it's San Diego, so it's not that cold here. And so I don't need much more than a long sleeve shirt. But the StudioLite Crew Neck is like a cross between a long sleeve shirt and a sweatshirt. And again, it's like the softest fabric you have ever felt. Some of you might have heard of it. It's called viscose and it's made from bamboo, which I think is really cool because it's sustainable. Okay, so why am I telling you about these amazing things I have found? I am telling you because they have agreed as a brand to hook you all up with a unique promo code and this code actually gets you up to 40 percent off, which I feel like is really quite a good reason to check them out. Something that came to my mind for you all is I know many of your kids are impossible to shop for, for Christmas because their interests don't change. And so I think buying something that will make them more comfortable. and just luxurious I think it's actually a really good gift aligned with what I want most for my people that I love most. So they have all the things from blankets to home decor, to clothing. And so I do really encourage you to check it out. And the promo code that you're going to want to make sure you use is SNMPodcast. Get it? Special Needs Mom Podcast. And if you can't remember that, it is in the show notes. And of course, I'll have links there. So go ahead and check it out. Now, welcome Jenny to the podcast.

Kara:

Welcome to the special needs mom podcast, Jennie. I am so glad to have you here.

Jennie:

I am so stoked to be here. You are a national treasure and I'm stoked to be here.

Kara:

Wow. I really liked that compliment that worked for me. Okay. Well, As we get into, you know, introducing you to our community, I wanted to give a little bit of backstory of why I said yes to this conversation. it was probably your publicist that reached out and pitched you, and I'm pretty scrutinous on the people, you know, I get a lot of pitches and so I do a quick scan. And if there's not a grab, you know, it's going to go into my filed box. Right. and actually I don't always read the emails right away. However, when I went back to read the pitch that your publicist sent, I was like, Oh yeah, baby. Like if not just for my listeners, for my own personal gain, I wanted to have a conversation with you because you are talking about things that, well, I'm struggling with and therefore I also know that this community is too. So thank you for being here. So we're going to be talking about. Many different things, but kind of primarily anxiety because that is a specialty of yours along with OCD. And we're going to talk about essentially our relationship with With digital media, would we also say social media, like same thing, right? Is that, is there a difference that I'm missing

Jennie:

No, I think digital media encompasses pretty much everything that we can do with the beautiful, shiny rectangle that usually lives within 4 feet of us at all times.

Kara:

the beautiful, shiny rectangle? That's such a good description. Well, as we get started, I wanted to see if you would share actually your personal backstory, like a little bit more about you as a human being, as a mom, And why you feel compelled to have this conversation and ultimately to write an entire book about it.

Jennie:

A little bit of my backstory, you know, it's always interesting to try and, capture 41 years. Of like, how did we get here? And I noticed this habit of selecting certain things that suggest that that's why we got here. But I also want to make space for the idea that like, I have no idea how I got here and I have no idea if the story that I'm going to tell you is the reason why, but the meaningful points in my life. Right? So, first career as an adult was in the adult business. And I was in the adult business for eight years. I did very well. It was in the before times. Twitter was just starting towards the end of my career. And. Smartphones were just sort of coming into our lives, right? Like the, access to pornography was, pretty limited to like a home setting. I was there before a big shift had happened and I. Got out of the adult industry by getting on to, rehab show on TV. This is called sex rehab with Dr. Drew. And then I did sober house with Dr. Drew. And when I signed up for the show, when I had my agent pitch me to them, it was under the guise of, it's going to be great marketing for me as a porn star. I had I had no insight that it would actually be this really life changing event,

Kara:

hmm. Mm hmm.

Jennie:

or the life changing event that I thought it would be did not. Materialized. Right. So what

Kara:

I can recommend. Yeah.

Jennie:

Yeah. I got into rehab, but they didn't do a cocktail hour. It was for sex. So I figured we could still have cocktails. I was very wrong. And what happened is that I made this really small change and I started using the name Jennie. Instead of my porn name and having a name that wasn't what I had thought really sort of opened the door to me seeing this whole different life. And then sobriety also made it so that all of my feelings came on, and that was a very uncomfortable place to be. And then once I had feelings, it was very hard to imagine going back to my life in pornography, and so I ended up quitting. And I was fortunate enough to have VH1 pay for a number of months of therapy for me. Which, I mean, they helped open a big box of like, messy things, and so thankfully they were willing to like, they were like, oh, maybe we have some duty to like, support this person in their change process, and they continue to do so, and then the therapist and the psychiatrist that I worked with, They continued to see me pro bono for, like, two years after I left, and so I had the incredible good fortune of coming in touch with these mental health professionals that were so generous and that recognized I needed help, but I didn't have the resources To make that happen myself.

Kara:

Mm-Hmm?

Jennie:

So, so that's like, that transitional piece, and in getting that support, I was able to identify. Values and new goals and a new professional world that would be meaningful and nourish me and I Decided to become a therapist and so, you know fast forward In private practice, and I start to notice that a lot of my clients are using their smartphone in this, sort of like eject button kind of way, right? So I'm an anxiety specialist and OCD specialist. And for a lot of us who suffer with anxiety or with OCD, we'll have these little safety behaviors. That we do to make us feel safe or less anxious, right? And society kind of reinforces these ideas. Like, oh, just do some deep breathing. You shouldn't feel anxious or just say positive things to yourself. That'll help. But what it does is it doesn't help. It actually keeps us anxious over the long term. Right? So I saw a lot of my clients using their phones or tablets. Just any sort of device to escape right into an elevator, don't know what to say to your colleague. Look at your phone, standing at the bus stop, waiting for the bus, nervous about how long the bus is going to be there. Refresh, refresh, refresh, waiting for an email, feeling like, Oh, I didn't do a good job. Refresh, refresh, refresh, refresh, right? Like all of these ways of trying to quiet that anxious mind using these devices. So I noticed that and for most of my clients, we put them on like a nutritional. Smartphone plan, like, let's, look at your behavior with this and figure out what's actually nourishing. And then let's look at your behavior and figure out what is just like sucking the life out of you. Like, what do you do and then stop doing and then feel like so drained, right?

Kara:

Mm-Hmm.

Jennie:

so that was a piece. And then there was this other piece where my oldest daughter, Elsie, She's just like the brightest little star in the sky. I love her so much. She was at that wonderful stage where she's starting to like cruise along coffee tables. And it was Super Bowl Sunday, we had people over and she's standing on the coffee table, sort of like, cruising along. And I have one of these errant thoughts about Snooki from the Jersey Shore, as one does when one is just sitting and thinking things. And so I followed that thought into my phone. Right. And if you follow that, then you're going to follow other thoughts. And pretty soon I'm in this like deep dive on the Jersey shore. Like we're, we're learning about their net worth. We're learning who's in jail. You know, we're like, we're really going for it.

Kara:

I'm really

Jennie:

Um, yeah, like we know, we know an inappropriate amount about these people's lives and, and then suddenly people start clapping. And I'm like, oh, football must have happened. But I look up and what had happened is Elsie had taken her first step and I missed it because I was in this place of the bottomless hole that is the internet. And that is my curiosity, right? And so it, it had me sort of really reconceptualize how we're using smartphones and how this technology is, you know, is happening in our lives away from this idea that is like a pathological thing, right? Like, it's not just that we're avoiding stuff that's hard. It's also that we're going on autopilot because that's what brains do. And we're getting sucked into the thing that is designed to suck you into it. And so, kind of naturally, I started thinking, well, there has to be some sort of, like, evidence based way to treat this. I saw some books, but nothing that really resonated with me personally. And so I put together a book and a program to take, like, 30 consecutive days of steps toward a healthier relationship with your phone. And that's how Look Up was born.

Kara:

I really love, I mean, I'm all about, you know, through my coach lens, I'm all about relationships and not just like relationships with people, but relationships we have with everything. You know, I define a relationship as just how we think about something and. So I like that it's flexible as it doesn't say no phone. It says your relationship to it and changing that. Cause I think, it just kind of creates a bigger possibility than this black and white thinking. And thank you for sharing your story. I find it deeply fascinating. I have so many more questions, but probably not on topic for the day. And, Of course, there's so many interests I have, but I want to, kind of isolate several of them and start with anxiety because anxiety is something that I personally have had all my life and it really has been, fanned into flame given the life circumstances I have around my son and I think being a mom, right? And so start, if you will, about, Defining one for us, anxiety, because I think it's like, let's just make sure we're all talking about the same thing, but also if you would distinguish between what's described as clinical anxiety and anxiety that would not be considered clinical

Jennie:

Yeah, you bet. So, I want to start by talking about the two really important distinctions, right? There's fear, and then there's anxiety. And both are totally normal, natural, healthy human processes that happen inside of our body. Right? We define fear as the emotional response that happens when we are experiencing a present threat. You're in the ocean, you are being attacked by a shark, right? Fear is going to

Kara:

terror.

Jennie:

Terror, and that fear, that terror is going to elicit some sort of action out of you, right? E motion, right? It's designed to elicit motion, right? So you're gonna punch the shark in the face. You're gonna swim as fast as you can, right? That's that like fight. You're gonna swim as fast as you can back to the beach, screaming shark to get everybody out of the water, right? That's that flight. I don't know that playing Dead or, or complimenting the shark will work in that scenario. But those are two other really common responses when we experience fear, right? Just please, or appease, like, let me just make this stop, right? Anxiety is different because it is a constellation of symptoms that happen when we are anticipating a threat, right? So anxiety is what you feel when you are on the Thinking about sharks that may or may not be swimming in the water, right? Anxiety is often triggered by uncertainty and uncertainty is really just the presence of possibilities. I think Rollo may said something like that. And that's all that anxiety is. Anxiety is there. You have many choices. Which one will you choose? Right? Like it's, Oh goodness. Well, you have, you know, string theory, you have every possible future available to you. Yeah. depending on how you manage that process, you will likely have different outcomes, but also different experience, right? So if you are locked into trying to find the right solution, like, I got to make the right choice. There's a good chance that you're going to experience a lot of distress because there just really isn't a right choice most of the time, right? If you're trying to avoid mistakes, you're probably going to experience a lot of distress. If you're just trying to like plan out the week. And you listen to that and like throw your week up on the calendar and you're like, oh, it's going to be nuts, but we have our plan, right? That's actually a really helpful way to navigate anxiety, right? And so anxiety is also this thing that is designed to elicit emotion. And when we listen to it, when we can treat it sort of like an uncomfortable, and like, I don't know, I don't want to say inappropriate, but like, I think of my grandma, Nancy, grandma, Nancy was kind of a grifter, right? She bless her heart. She would just say the most inappropriate things. And you would just sort of feel like, you know, grandma, Nancy was coming to the party. Right. And you knew she was going to make you uncomfortable, but also like, she's not not coming to the party.

Kara:

hmm. Mm hmm.

Jennie:

like, you can't shut the door on grandma Nancy. She's gonna get in. She brought her own chair. Right. She is here. Right. And so that's a little bit of anxiety. But if you can just sort of like stay at the party. And work with grandma Nancy. Grandma Nancy is not actually a problem. Right. And anxiety is very much in the same way. It is. Helpful when we allow it to help us

Kara:

hmm.

Jennie:

when it becomes clinical is when we start to fight against it. I shouldn't feel anxious. I don't want to feel anxious. Anxiety is dangerous. When we start to identify this internal experience as something dangerous. then when we feel it, we actually feel more anxiety because we get anxious about being anxious. And then suddenly we have to solve this problem of this thing that is actually like kind of beautiful and is one of the most human experiences. And something that we've actually been like evolutionarily selected for, right? there's a psychologist named Kelly Wilson, and he talks about anxiety as, we're out in the brush and we're looking out in the distance and we see this shape, and it, it's like, It looks like it's a blackberry bush, but it might be a bear, right? And so if you go out there and find out at least once, you're not coming back. If I hightail it back to the hut, 10 out of 10 times, I am going to live, right? And so our parents, parents, parents, parents, parents, parents, parents, parents, parents. Are the ones who went back to the hut, they're the ones who listen to that anxiety and they're like, yeah, this is, ooh, we're not gonna, this week's gonna be nuts. We need to put this on the calendar folks. And then, you know, like, let's get out of here. And so really the, I guess the overarching point is that anxiety is a totally healthy, normal thing that happens inside of people. Right. it'll spark when you feel uncertain about something, more so when you care about something and when you start to fight against it, that's when you start to have clinical problems.

Kara:

wonderful, wonderful definition and I think so helpful. So thank you so much for that and also helping with like kind of distinguishing, where it kind of crosses over to be working against you rather than working for you. And You know, if I look through the lens of a mom that has a child with any sort of disability medical diagnosis, there are so many, situations where we need to look out there and predict and protect and act and, Also not knowing, so much. So there's so much uncertainty. So really I think it's a beautiful, like permission to say, actually, this is a good thing. And there's also opportunities probably to support ourselves when we tiptoe over into the misuse of this very helpful tool. If you would talk about. What you describe as the vehicles of acquisition for anxiety, I think just to, perhaps give even more context for kind of how we've landed where we have landed. Yeah.

Jennie:

So the vehicles of acquisition. So a lot, a lot of people come into my clinic wanting to know why they feel so anxious. Right. And this sort of ties back into my earlier statement about I can tell you a story of how I got here. And I think that's probably pretty accurate, but I also have this incredible storytelling mind that puts together brilliant stories. Right. And so when people come in and they say, you know, like, let's talk about why I feel so anxious. That's helpful to a certain extent, right? there's the normalizing process, which one vehicle of acquisition and of acquisition is really just saying, why am I so anxious? I don't know why I get so anxious. is evolution, right? Like, back to that, like, Blackberry Bushes and Bear example. You were anxious because your parents were anxious. they were selected for that. And their parents were selected for that. And their parents were selected. The guy that wasn't anxious about going out into the field, he is dead. And he did not, he did not reproduce and his kin died, right? Like they did not reproduce. And so that you feel anxious. Yes. Human prefrontal cortex working. Love that for you. really common vehicle of acquisition of anxiety is firsthand learning, right? You, walk across the dog, the dog bites you. Right? You've learned that dogs are dangerous. So next time you walk past a dog, you're going to be a little nervous about that. Secondhand, you learn from your mom who says, Oh, dogs are dangerous. Don't go near them. Don't do that. That's not safe. That's not safe. I mean, like as a parent. I try to be so mindful of all of the like, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope. Right. Because suddenly they live in this very unsafe world when really that's frankly just my own anxiety about them dying. Right? Like, I don't want you to die. Please don't do things that increase your risk of death. You know, but I don't know that like my daughter going down the stairs last night for Halloween actually increases there is a fall risk. She's also two and a half. And so we learn from our parents about what we should be anxious about, right? And as parents, this ends up creating this really difficult situation where we want to get it right. You know, we don't want our kids to be anxious, not clinically anyway. We want them to have the appropriate amount of anxiety, right? That like functional amount. But it puts a lot of pressure on us as parents. Right to like, okay, well, don't say the wrong thing. Don't be too overprotective. Don't be too much of a helicopter, but don't not protect them and don't tell them that like, gosh, like it's such a, it's just this like razor edge. It's a tight, but it really is, right? there's one vehicle of acquisition that I am missing.

Kara:

Okay. So we have, we have firsthand learning. We have modeling, which is the second one you said. Okay. Then we have transmission of misinformation. That's a good one. And then the last one is evolution. So you did evolution. And then, so we have to transmission of misinformation. Okay, great.

Jennie:

Yeah. You watch the news. Right. And you get anxious and you start to think that, the, the world is actually worse than it has ever been. And there, there's more violence in our world than has ever been before. And if we step back from the, the exposure, right, to all of this. really anxiety invoking content, we also have to take into consideration that we have more exposure to this than we ever have before. And so, while the world, there are some issues in it, I don't actually know that things are worse, but what I know is that we see a lot more and our brain has the opportunity to learn that things are really, really bad.

Kara:

Yeah.

Jennie:

So it's, it's a hard thing to tease out, but I think What ends up happening in a clinical setting is that we are these complex beings and we feel anxious because of all of these things. Right? And so it can be sort of tricky to try and whittle it down to 1 single. This is why I feel this way. And in doing so might actually be a safety behavior, like, if I could just figure out why I'm anxious, I can stop that thing from happening. But the simple fact is, is that you're human. You've learned, you'll learn stuff and that anxiety is in you for a reason. That's actually quite helpful.

Kara:

Until it's not helpful because of the dysfunction of it. Right. And so what would be the perhaps signs or cues that one might notice to suggest that it's time for them to seek out a professional such as yourself?

Jennie:

It's a great question. I think we live in a society that tells us that we shouldn't feel anxious. So if you feel anxious, that is not actually a sign that you need clinical help. That is a sign that you're a human. If you feel anxious and you're fighting against it, if you find that you're avoiding things that are really, really important. if you find that you are persistently worrying, or, know, my, kiddo, we're, toying with the idea that, you know, She might have a diagnosis, like a neurological diagnosis. And, you know, if I'm spending all of my time on the forums and if I'm doing these deep dives into information, trying to get this sense of control and I'm losing time in my life, spending it with my daughter, trying to do that, that's probably a sign that I need to seek professional help. Right. And so it's not so much the volume of anxiety that you feel in as much as it is your response to that. So are you fighting against it? are the things that you're doing to fight against it, getting in the way of you living a rich and meaningful life? And are you using a bunch of little coping strategies, as a way to deal with anxiety? Because if that's the case, it's probably time to see a professional.

Kara:

And in seeking a professional or treatment, I think that's kind of synonymous. And what I want to acknowledge is that for a variety of reasons for this community, I would say treatment is somewhat inaccessible. So due to a financial constraint, probably more so due to a, constraint where, where it just may not, like, you know, if your child's in the hospital, it's very difficult to schedule and maintain a schedule for, you know, an appointment. And so what I want to give our listeners is perhaps places to look that is accessible. And I guess I want to add to also from the coaching perspective, not as a clinical, Diagnostician, but as somebody who supports people with managing their minds, managing their relationship to things and making these observations and shifting a lot of times from judgment to kindness, compassion, and curiosity. So, which is, you know, kind of a different side of a coin in terms of how you might approach it. Or maybe somewhat similar. So what would you say would be things that you can think of that if someone can't get, and let's just say make an appointment with you, that might be something that you would suggest that they seek?

Jennie:

so if you can't make an appointment with me, my understanding is that your life is literally booked wall to wall. So I do all of my work remote, specifically because I work with populations that, you know, Have either a really hard time getting out of the house, or whose primary anxieties involve things that we can actually activate and work on in the house. And so, working in a remote setting allows me to come into your life, wherever you are, and all you have to do is be able to set aside an hour. Right, and so if you're in a place where you can't set aside an hour 1, oh, babe, like. Things are hard for you right now. And so I just want to acknowledge that, like, that is a lot, right? Like, your life is so booked that you can't set aside an hour for yourself. that's, that's really tough. I think it can be helpful to have different ways to get the message, which I think is really what we're touching on here, right? one, in some cases, therapists do work in shorter time spans, right? So maybe it's not for 45 minutes. Maybe it's for 15 minutes. Maybe it's for 30 minutes, maybe it's just a breath. Maybe it's virtual. If therapy is not an option for you, there's some really great books out there that, Fit in your purse or your bag or whatever you're toting around. I don't know. I want to make judgments there, but, there's some really great evidence based books that are sort of work bookie in nature and can be beautiful supportive. Structures to put in your life that are accessible and affordable. And you can dip into them whenever you can, and then dip out of them whenever you can. there are two that come to mind, I'd love to share them with your audience. Kristen Neff

Kara:

Definitely. I have a dream of getting her on my podcast. Her book's right over there. You know, everyone has that dream guest. I'm like, that's her. Anyhow, continue on.

Jennie:

Totally. I applied to study with her at university of Austin, didn't get in, but that's the same. I'm like, Oh, again, like love, love her work. Kristen Neff has a really lovely book on self compassion. and there are some practices in it. It's not necessarily a workbook, but it's a really helpful lens to start to view your life through, which has this amazing ripple effect throughout. Your behavior. she also has a website, self compassion. org and that website has a lot of really great resources. really great meditations. And I know a lot of my clients that I work with, I put almost all of my clients on some sort of Kristen Neff diet as well. Right. We're like, we just need more Kristen Neff in our

Kara:

Yes, we do. Mm

Jennie:

yeah. And she has some really great meditations and something that a lot of clients will say as we start to explore this is I don't have time.

Kara:

Mm hmm.

Jennie:

fortunately Kristen has like overcome that and she has like a five minute meditation. Right. So like, there's a good chance you do have a time for a five minute meditation. And if we, and I say this with no judgment, cause my hours are high too, right? If we look at your smartphone use and the hours that you're spending there, I would bet we could reduce it by five minutes. To get you into a self compassion break with Kristen Neff. Like, I bet we could do that. Like,

Kara:

Cool. Cool. A hundred percent. I definitely back that. And I think here's the tricky thing is that an anxious mind is going to tell you, you don't have time to stop. You need to keep running girl, because you got to look out for all those bears out there and like, you know, all the reasons that they have good reasons. Right. And so that's the riff here is like that actually the stopping, even just for five minutes is the thing that will soothe The anxious mind enough to be able to kind of get back in that health, like that useful zone.

Jennie:

Mm

Kara:

And so there's like this dynamic too, where it's like people, you know, this happens a lot. They come to me. I want help. I want help. And then that step into actually getting help, I think is, that there's like the things that are keeping them where they want to want help are the things that are also keeping them from getting help. So I just want to acknowledge that that is part. And. Just consider that it's one baby step after another. And to, to the listeners that maybe are like, I don't have five minutes or it feels like I don't have five minutes. Be gentle and kind to yourself and ask a question based on curiosity of like, what do I need to be able to stop for five minutes or something along those lines? Anyhow, I'm gonna turn it back to you. So, so Kristen Neff and who was the other book that you were going to suggest?

Jennie:

Well, I want to touch on that just just a beat more, right? Because I love, I love this idea that not everything you think is true, which is really like, at its core, what I think you're tapping into, like, our very anxious mind will say, Nope, no time in the day, no time in the life. Like go, go, go, go, go, go. Right. It's, it's that feeling when you're sitting in traffic and you know, you're going to be five minutes late and you are like rushing to be there inside your body, but actually you are sitting in traffic. Like you were going nowhere sister. Right. So like it is that, and when we can see our, storytelling mind for what it is, which is this, it's like. Really thought, I call her Brenda. She does lots of work. She has the most, She's very busy. She is kind of an unhelpful secretary. Like she files things, but she loses a lot of things and she's like working in off hours and there's like no like labor regulations. She's like, I shouldn't be working now. And I'm like, but it's like literally the middle of the day. But then 3am, she's like, we're working hard. And I'm like, you need to go to bed. Like, what are we doing, Brenda? Right. So, so sometimes Brenda tells me stuff. That like, is not particularly helpful or accurate. Right. But she's always talking. And so

Kara:

I love that you named her, by the way. I'm like, I think I might do this. Brenda.

Jennie:

I love it. I have, I have almost all of my clients name their mind. Right. Because it's, it can be really helpful to be like, oh, thank you, Brenda. Right.

Kara:

Mm hmm. I love it. Yeah.

Jennie:

Yeah, I know you. I know your stories. It's just, it's like, it's classic Brenda. She's like, we don't have time today. And I'm like, Brenda, babe, thank you. Like, thank you for that input. Let's look at our schedule and see if we can create some space for this. And so I love the idea of embracing, The possibility that maybe you do have time,

Kara:

hmm.

Jennie:

maybe your Brenda is just stuck in traffic and really concerned about getting to the place on time and, like, yelling at you. Right I also, with my clients are like, I don't have time. Like, those are the clients that need it the most. And I usually hesitate to say that to them until we have good rapport, at which point I'm like, yeah, know you think that and I hear that thought and I see how big that thought is in your head. And also don't believe everything you think. Keep it in your experience. And see what your experience has to say. Right. If I look at my calendar today, my experience says I've got at least five minutes to do a Kristen Neff self compassion meditation. I've got that. that's where it starts. Another great workbook that I am just such a fan of is by a psychologist named Steve Hayes. So, Steve Hayes and Kelly Wilson, the Blackberry Bushes and Bears psychologists, they are the creators of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. And Steve Hayes workbook is called Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life, and it's just this beautiful values based approach to creating long term sustainable change. And it's framed around this idea of flexibility, right? Like, when we're in traffic and we gotta get there, we gotta get there, we gotta get there, and Brenda's shouting all of her obscenities, which she says some really appropriate things, that is just not a flexible way to live, right? Like, flexibility involves a lot of pivots, and it's like, okay, well, the pivot from there is like, oh, well, we are here, It's Like, maybe I throw on a podcast and just like listen to a podcast, maybe I can be late and the world will not end. Like maybe this like catastrophic thing that Brenda has said will end our world is not the catastrophe, but I'm going to refrain from making that decision until I have the experience. I'll let arriving late inform the experience instead of what Brenda has to say, because according to Brenda, it's not. It's always a disaster, but, but Steve Hayes book will help you go through that. And because it's a workbook, it's this really interactive, easy approach. yeah. And of course, like if you're looking to change your smartphone behavior, you can buy my book, but in terms of sort of like more generalist stuff, these are two invaluable resources.

Kara:

Yeah. And I'm a hundred percent aligned with both of them. I am not familiar with the second one, but by the title alone, I'm like, I'm in on that. And I just want to mention, we'll put links to all the resources listed in the show notes, including your book. And, so thank you for mentioning those. let's actually turn a pivot a little bit and talk about another area of expertise, that you've leaned into. And it has to do with, I guess what we can call is digital overuse or maybe even what we'll say is like a. Unhelpful relationship with digital media, digital, whatever. And I think what we're distinguishing against is like use versus overuse or maybe even again, that unhelpful use. how do How do you distinguish the difference between what you would define as overuse versus use? Brenda's

Jennie:

Yeah. So digital use is any sort of interaction that you have with your tablet where it is serving some helpful function. So for example, I am waiting at the bus stop and I check to see if the bus is running on time and I do so by opening my smartphone. I open the bus app. I look at it. I see, ah, yes, that question is answered and I can put it away and then just sit at the bus stop and chill. Digital overuse starts to happen when we stay in the phone longer than it's actually functioning, right? So when that helpful function sort of goes away, that's overuse. So I log in, I see the bus time and then, ooh, What's this notification?

Kara:

like, what is that over there?

Jennie:

Yeah, she's like, ooh, we are inbox zero. Why is this red?

Kara:

Right. What is that?

Jennie:

Yeah, totally click. Or like, ooh, I wonder if anybody commented on this thing, or ooh, I wonder what Snooki is doing, right? And then we just sort of go on autopilot, right? That's overuse. And it's just sort of like that scroll, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, ha ha, scrolling, ha ha ha, oh, sent to so and so's scroll. Like, there's this sort of like, this muted quality

Kara:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jennie:

You know what I mean?

Kara:

familiar with what you mean.

Jennie:

it totally, and you come out of it and you're like, whoa, like, how long have I been in there? Like, how long have I been in there? You sort of like, time warp a little bit. So that's how I would describe overuse. Addiction is going to be different. So there's also there's dependence and there's addiction. So dependence is talking about if your smartphone or your tablet is the only way that you have to access the Internet. Most of us actually need the Internet in the terms of living our lives today. That's this is the world we live in. Right? So, if the only access that you have to it is on your smartphone, you are smartphone dependent. And there isn't like a judgment involved, but we also know that this disproportionately impacts people of color. This disproportionately impacts people from lower socioeconomic status. Right? And so it also sets up these marginalized populations to become addicted to smartphones. Because smartphones are by design really shiny and beautiful and addictive, right? Like, just little tiny lines of cocaine. And so. Addiction happens when we start to use it in a way that interferes with our life, right? So, I am scrolling on my phone instead of choosing to play with my kids. I am scrolling on my phone instead of doing my work. I see this with a lot of my, I've worked with a ton of tech engineers, right? And so like, I am, Looking for an answer on Reddit, but then I end up in that deep hole and reading everything else and then pretty soon I'm just on Twitter being like really upset about the state of the world, right? And so then that's sort of like, like, where's your phone when you go to the bathroom? That might tell you if you have a little bit of an addiction going on, right? Like, do you take your phone to go poop? Okay. Like, that's curious. Right. Like,, I'm

Kara:

did we poop before? How did we manage to be? How did we manage to be quiet and by ourselves for several minutes before we had the entertainment?

Jennie:

Totally. And like, are you ending up with like hemorrhoids because you're in there scrolling for too long and you end up in that hole and then you look and you're like, Oh, there's a lot of blood there. And like, you've just totally lost your way. Like, let's keep it real.

Kara:

That's why I love this conversation. I'm like, we're really talking about the real, what it really looks like.

Jennie:

This is what it looks like. It's blood. Right. And so like, I think you can also tap into like, am I addicted to my phone if you started to get worried when you don't have it? Like, well, you know, or if you just do a little check in right now, like, how close is your phone to you? Like, mine is. here. Yep.

Kara:

We both, for those not seeing, obviously all of you, we both picked up our phones and showed each other, like it's within like inches of us.

Jennie:

Yeah. It is always within arm's reach. Right. Like, that's so curious.

Kara:

Yeah.

Jennie:

That's so curious. If that were a bottle of Jack Daniels, people would be concerned. And if I took Jack Daniels into the bathroom, I will still still, because I'm a sober person. And like, I can, I can own that. We had a little bit of a Jack Daniels in the bathroom problem, but like, if I took Jack Daniels to the bathroom, And like sat on the toilet holding it as like tenderly as I do my phone, people would be concerned.

Kara:

Our curiosity would be piqued, right? Like we would be like, Oh, isn't this interesting that there's this, uh, relationship that has us so close to this thing with it always in our hand, like it's a security blanket. So, okay. So I think everyone. I'm going to speak for everyone.

Jennie:

do it. Yeah. Yeah.

Kara:

just how it's going and I'm speaking. Okay. I'm not going to speak for everyone. I'm going to start speaking for myself and maybe a little bit everyone that I think this is like, I, you know, mentioned earlier that I'm noticing. The Jack Daniels in the bathroom, not the actual Jack Daniels, but you get what I'm saying. I'm noticing this is, is, is this really working for what I want from this thing? And I think for me, the answer right now is no, but right now it's kind of like, okay, well, like, Oh, like, there is something I want to need. And there is connection. So here's, I want to, I want to move to really acknowledging that for many of our community, for many reasons, isolation is huge. So not just physical, there's physical isolation because the mechanics of, being a parent to these children mean that it's actually very hard to sometimes leave the house, very hard to gather people. you know, there's that demand of going to appointments. There is, there's like actual. You know, logistical real challenges. So, which I think jumps us into, Oh my gosh, isn't this incredible. We have this way of connecting with each other via, I'm going to say social media. And there's, real gifts in that there's beauty in that I have relationships that I'm so thankful for as a result of this shiny and, and there's the other side where. You know, I think I don't even need to explain it, but it's like all the things where it's like, there's the conversations online that are fueling anger that are inspiring. Kind of what I see is like, you know, actually, encouraging moms to think about themselves in a way that is not helpful, but it's like, everybody gets their little pitchforks out and it's like, yeah, yeah. And like, it just kind of is not a helpful environment. And that's what I, for a lot of those reasons have really kind of stepped away from. being involved in actual conversations in that space, because I'm not actually, they're not conversations. They're speaking at each other. And that's actually not the relationship I want with people. Okay. That's a little bit of a rambler, but that presents us with a real challenge. And so I guess I just want to talk about it. Like, okay. So like, we have this desire to connect. We have, Life limitations. We have this tool that kind of works. So we don't want to necessarily break up with it. Okay. So now what? Probably your book but also like what would you suggest just in this conversation today?

Jennie:

I think you put your finger on something really beautiful and difficult about being a human. We're not made to live with each other. We are made to live for each other and in connection. That's not mine. I wish I could take it. I don't remember whose it is, but it's not mine. Maybe Jack Kornfeld. It's Very good. that longing for connection that we feel. That is one of the most human parts of us, right? Like, we need each other to survive. And if we think about it a little bit like hunger, you need to eat to survive. Like, you have to eat to survive. But connecting only through these online spaces, in these ways that are asynchronous, It's kind of like eating a cookie. Like it's good. I love, like, I actually have a little bit of a cookie problem. we don't need to get

Kara:

Mine's a cake problem, which has really been curtailed because I eat gluten free. So cake is a lot less accessible, but I just love cake. But anyhow, back to the cookie, back to your

Jennie:

I I mean, I appreciate that. Right. And like, I think there's this thing that happens where we get the cookie or we get the piece of cake. And for that, For that moment we're satiated. It's like, ah, okay, I don't need to eat anymore. How to cookie good to go. Right. But what this body really wants is a Cobb salad, right? It wants some greens. It wants a little bacon. It wants an egg. It wants some avocado. It wants blue cheese crumbles and a little bit of vinaigrette. Like it is hungry for some so good. Right. And that's what the body really, really wants. I mean, I think a cardiologist would be like, it doesn't mean the bacon, but like missing the point. Thank you, Brenda. She was like, make sure you clarify about bacon. Like, we know it's bad for us. Thank you. as long as we, we use these devices to sort of like plug the holes in the dam, right? Like, as long as I'm going on the forum, I can like connect a little bit, do a little scroll, read a little bit. It quiets that longing enough until the next moment that it shows up. But if we didn't do that, we would have an opportunity to really listen to what we need, right? And in listening, we have an opportunity to go out, And get it and so maybe you are, more isolated just because of the logistics. Maybe you live in a rural community and realistically, there's just not a lot of, like, differently abled people or differently abled kids in your community, or if they are. They're really on the outskirts and there's no sort of like celebratory way to bring them together, this is the world we live in and yes, and as long as we go to those places that quiet, that, that urge just for a moment, it prevents us from feeling enough of the pull to actually make a change.

Kara:

Yeah, it's almost like I'm, interpreting this as like anesthetize us enough to numb us enough to where we don't feel enough of the pain to say, this is actually not helpful. It's actually maybe even hurting me. And so you can see like through this, you can see a hundred percent why we keep, we're continuing, we're persisting, we're not changing. We're like seeing the problem because where I'm at, like I've had this, I've been at this place where I'm like, seen the problem, but to your point, it's not painful enough to experience the discomfort of changing. Cause actually I want to acknowledge, like, it's actually very uncomfortable to change to, or to let go of something that you think is helping you or that is helping you a little bit. So, wow. Back to you. yeah. Okay. So now what?

Jennie:

Now, what? Yeah.

Kara:

us. Oh,

Jennie:

Oh, gosh. Here's the answer. My book is the answer. My book is not the answer, but my book is a piece of an answer. It is a tool that you can use. It's a 30 day challenge. It will help you come off autopilot. It will help you identify some of the content that your own Brenda comes up with that keeps you stuck in that place. It'll help you learn to sit with some of the discomfort. And it'll help you clarify your values. So what are the North stars in my sky that I want my life to move toward? Right? And what are steps that I can actually take toward them? And so that's really what the challenge is about. It involves some reduction of phone use. It goes from deciding when I'm not going to use my phone to deciding when I'm going to use my phone. But. It's not this unrealistic, don't use phone at all stance, right? It's not an abstinence based approach. It is a harm reduction, right? Like, can we reduce the amount of harm that, that we're doing with this thing, and can we do so in a way that's, like, sustainable and that really highlights the harm reduction? What we want our life to be about. And so that's the book. I think there are other resources. If you're like, yeah, but like, I, I don't need this, but I know it's bad for my kids. Right. Then that's also a curious stance, right? Like, you know, cigarettes are bad for your kids, but like, you can smoke them. So we sort of like, liken it like that. but I think in terms of like, God, what do we do about this connection problem? You know, in the field of social work. So I'm, I'm educated as a social worker. I'm a clinical social worker. It's my master's, isn't it? we talk about these, grand challenges in society. And loneliness is identified as one of the 12 grand challenges that we face as a society, which is amazing because we've never been more connected.

Kara:

Yeah.

Jennie:

Right. But we are so lonely. And so, if you're feeling lonely, what a beautiful part of your humanity to be with and what a beautiful part of your humanity to, like, guide you to something else. Right. And so, you can do my workbook. That's great. You can also start to reach out and try to build some community in your world. Right. And if you're running up against that, don't have time, Genny thought, right? Like if that thought is present, we can acknowledge like, yeah, like, hello, don't have time for that. Hello, Brenda. Thank you so much. I knew you were here. My schedule keeper, right? Like, there are little steps that you can take. Little pivots that you can make your world. And, maybe just listening to how alone you are. could be a pivot. And we don't know what will come of it until you listen.

Kara:

I really want to highlight that because I want to acknowledge, I love how little the emphasis of little pivots. So that's, it's just so important because I think what we as humans do is we make things really big and really hard and then of course we don't do them, but by pulling it back to a little pivot, I think that really invites us to like something that is accessible to us. And I love that. Essentially your first step is like the first pivot can just be as simple as listening. I think a lot of people, would probably, dismiss the actual action and intention and power of just listening. You know, we put a lot of value on actions, but listening is an action. I think that that actually, if you really listen to yourself, that I think can give us what we need in order to take that next step, the next little pivot that you're talking about. Okay, so kind of backing up even just a second and we are going to come to an end here because I want to you Know, I know Brenda doesn't have a lot of time here. You know what I'm saying? I'm just kidding.

Jennie:

Brenda got all the time and none of the time. Bye.

Kara:

sure that that the minds of Of this community are intrigued with curiosity and hopefully some desire and probably their Brenda's are like a little bit overwhelmed or maybe intimidated or maybe even already feel defeated because maybe they've tried something and it hasn't worked. It's just there. Is there anything that. Also, you might just put in the, idea, center of the brain, of other little pivots or points of accessibility that they might look for as first steps.

Jennie:

Yeah, if, that is your experience right now, it sounds like our Brenda's have been trained in a similar fashion they went to school together. It is in this country. There's a lot of bootstraps and we should be picking ourselves up by them and doing a lot more than we can and yeah, they, she loves, should, she's Very shouldy all over the place and she shoulds with her phone in her hand. So I think another little pivot and you can play with this. Right? So, where I started to get a little bit of traction, I'll use my own example where I started to get some traction. In changing my own smart phone use behavior was to, begin to share what I'm doing in the phone. the people who are in the room,

Kara:

Mm hmm.

Jennie:

and so either including them in it so that it's this communal joint shared experience that actually brings us together. It's an opportunity for connection. Or if I'm like, oh, I don't want them to walk me like, I don't know. Then that's a moment to, like, that's curious. Right, like, I don't want them to just endlessly scroll Tik Tok with me. Okay, maybe, maybe that's a listening point, right? Maybe that's that like demon of dissonance that shows up. That's like, oh, this is, this is in conflict with like, this behavior is in conflict with our values and like, ouch, like that ouch is actually a pivot point. Right? So back to the listen. So. Try including your significant others in the thing that you're doing. And if you find yourself really uncomfortable with that, be curious about that discomfort. Like, what does that say? Is this a values oriented activity? Another really interesting thing to do is to when you are out in public, put your phone down and watch other people on their phone, see what they're missing, look at the world around them, look at the people who are with them, who are looking to them as they look in their phone, right? And it will give you this shared consciousness for what you're missing when you're locked in your phone. Right? Because we don't know we're missing it because we missed it, right? Like you don't know what you don't know. You don't know what you're missing because you miss it. And so if you watch other people, you have an opportunity to learn what they're missing. And there is an acceptably high probability that you too are missing those things. I think the, the third thing, there's just a little pivot that you can play with. Is, and this is very specific for parents. And so, if you are a caregiver, this, can also apply to you, right? Whether, whether you're a parent or not, it would be your guardian. When your kid comes into the room, put your phone down and look at them, right? If you're going to choose to keep your phone open, tell them that you're choosing to look at your phone. It will create some discomfort there, too, right? But I want to invite this idea that they already know you're choosing your phone,

Kara:

Mhm.

Jennie:

right? But you don't because you're on autopilot. And so we're trying to have you engage with is this idea of choice that you actually have the ability to choose where you pay attention. And in every moment, there's a choice point. Right. Just like a pivot point. Like that choice point is where you pivot in that choice point. If your kid comes in and you're like, mommy's just going to scroll on her phone for a little bit, leave me alone. Right? Like, I mean, you can do it in a much nicer voice. That was just Brenda really showing off. your kid comes in, you say, yeah, mommy's just going to like scroll on my phone for a little bit more and then I'll be with you. That gives you an opportunity to really engage with the fact that you're choosing to scroll on your phone over Hangout with your kids, right? And we want you to get to feel the consequences of the choices that we're making. They might be uncomfortable. There's a good chance they are. But that discomfort, again, is something that is going to provide the motivation and the, oomph that you need to make the next change, whatever that next change is,

Kara:

Well, I'll interject and say like really what it's acknowledging is that You're you're inside of a choice. And the way you said it that second time, there is really acknowledging, like, it doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong or bad. It's really just owning what you're choosing, because when we recognize we are at cause of what we are doing and creating, we're not just. We then can see, Oh, we actually have other options for choosing to do this thing, not through judgment, but like through curiosity, is this really what we want to be choosing? And so I, I really love that. And I think, I guess what I just really want to emphasize is that, I mean, what you're suggesting is certainly not through the lens of, critique and judgment it's through the lens of curiosity and really kind of leaning into what's happening for you in the moment that you're choosing your phone over something else that you also really, really maybe even value more than the thing you're actually doing. So it, like you said, creates this cognitive distance where you're like, Oh, interesting. I actually value this human being more than anything else on earth. I'm paying attention to, you know, a dog video instead. I mean, they are funny. You have to give them credit for that. The dog videos.

Jennie:

Look, they're hilarious. I have a problem right now with the, like, art, like us, like BFF videos that are like, this is what will be like in like 60 years, like, as best friends. Like, I'm really into those right now. And so

Kara:

seen them. Bummer. Now I have to well, now we know what I'll do after this call. Just kidding.

Jennie:

Yes. Yeah. But no, I love, I love this idea that like, this is an opportunity to really show up with nonjudgment, right? It is an opportunity to show up with curiosity and compassion because if your kid comes into the room and you look up and you acknowledge them and you're like, mom's just gonna zone out for a few more minutes, looking at these dog videos. Right? What a gift you just gave your kid, right? Because now they know exactly what you're doing in that phone. They know exactly what you're choosing to look at, and they're not gonna have as much space to just make up some story. About why you're looking at your phone instead of why you're paying attention to them. opens the door to it being an active conversation, like, Oh, what are you looking at mommy? And then maybe that's a moment for sharing, like, Oh, look at the silly dog video that I saw. Maybe you're looking at something that you don't want them to see. Right. Or an email, like I'm just wrapping up an email. And as soon as I'm done with this, We're going to play, we're going to read or whatever it is that we're going to do. Right. But it offers this really beautiful moment of acknowledgement for you to check in with yourself about, like, what are my values in this moment? Right? Like, do I want to zone out for a little bit? Like, because that's okay. Like life is really hard. Life is really hard. And living in these skin suits with Brenda, and there's just, there's a lot of chemistry hopping in here. Like, it's this like weird science experiment where like, I feel like I'm on a roller coaster, but actually I'm sitting on a podcast, right? Like stuff gets weird in the skin suit and like, that can be really hard. And so sometimes fine. You want to zone out for a little bit. Okay. Make it an active choice. And make it one that actually aligns with something you care about. Like, I need a little downtime. And maybe this is how I define downtime. If so, like maybe we work on like expanding that repertoire of behavior. But if this is where it starts, is you acknowledging that this is actually downtime for you? Maybe that's where it starts. And my sense is, is that the more active you are in your choices, the more mindful you are in your behavior, the less you're going to be doing that doom scrolling, because brain is going to be making these active choices. And there's a good chance that, like, at the bottom of that doom scroll is not a value. It's just more doom scroll. Right? Like that's what's at the bottom of that.

Kara:

Oh, gosh, he's so good. And honestly, like I, you know, my little coach brain is just like, so into this conversation because you know, through the lens of coaching where I'm all about being in choice and recognizing actually that we have choice because many of us don't. So I'm going to stop there. Otherwise we'll turn into like a two hour podcast and. I almost said Brenda, no,

Jennie:

Mm hmm. She's

Kara:

for, thanks for, both of you, because you know, both of you, you're doing your very best. And I want to acknowledge, I love again, having the playful relationship with all of the parts of you, because I think that's what we as human beings, all of us wants to be loved and accepted. And, love that you've modeled that so well, and we do need to bring this conversation to a close. I want to invite you if there's any last thought or leaving comment that you have, I would just invite you to share with our listeners and also how can they connect with you, and learn more about perhaps your book or anything else that you have to offer.

Jennie:

Yeah, I think, a parting thought is that, you know, we, are all in this together and it is hard for all of us at different times, but in very similar ways. And it is in that difficulty that we can come together and find a tremendous amount of joy and meaning and purpose. And so if it's hard for you right now, that's okay. That's okay. There are communities and people and a person that you can stand across from in the mirror that can show up and love you in the most generous and compassionate way possible. Yeah, I get emotional just thinking about it. Okay. So if you want to connect with me, it sounds so weird to say, but you can connect with me on Instagram.

Kara:

That's great.

Jennie:

That's it. I actually have started making videos of Brenda. So you will get to meet Brenda. It's a lot. My husband's like, what are you doing in there? And I'm like, nothing only only one of us could talk to him at a time. yeah, so you can connect with me on Instagram. I'm at becoming Jennie and. You can buy look up, it's a 30 day path to digital minimalism and real life. Maximum by that on Amazon and yeah, if you are wanting to plug in with a therapist, I own a group practice called West Coast anxiety. And, like, I had mentioned, we work remote. I have clinicians who are licensed In just about every state in the

Kara:

Oh, bingo. Okay. I didn't realize that. I'm glad you mentioned that. That's great to know.

Jennie:

so hit us up and if, things are hard, but if you have insurance, maybe we can see if we can work out like a single case agreement or something like that with your insurance company, which is just to say, don't let hard or the perception of it not working be the thing that stops you from reaching out, like, give us a shout. And maybe we can help. Maybe we can't, I don't know, but like maybe we can help and support you. And, yeah, maybe, maybe you do have five minutes.

Kara:

Okay. Yes. I can't echo that enough. If just being in the inquiry and allowing yourself to answer some questions. so yeah, great. So all of the contact information will be available on the show notes. And, Again, Jennie, thank you so much for being here. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and especially laughing with you. And of course, our beloved Brenda.

Jennie:

Thank you so much. Yeah, it was, it was a lot of fun and I can't wait to learn about what you name your mind and,

Kara:

I know I was thinking about it. I will get back to you on that.

Jennie:

looks, whatever, whatever it is, she's not going to like it. So just know that going into it, she's not going to like it. It's not going to be good enough. So.

Kara:

fair warning for warning. All right. We'll see you on the next episode.