The Special Needs Mom Podcast

Let Go of Fair, Move Toward Care with Kim Botto

• Kara Ryska • Episode 260

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This week’s guest is Kim Botto, a longtime children’s and student ministry leader, TBRI® Practitioner, and all-around passionate advocate for kids who don’t always fit the mold. She’s spent decades creating spaces where every child—regardless of background, behavior, or ability—can belong, contribute, and grow.

Kim and I talked about what happens when places like school or church aren’t safe or supportive—especially for kids with trauma, disabilities, or neurodivergence. She shared the idea of “connection before correction,” and reminded me that we don’t need a diagnosis to lead with compassion.

We also got real about what it takes to build a culture of belonging—and how sometimes it starts with something as small (and powerful) as a strip of red tape.

Kim is the author of Boundless Hope for Every Child and hosts The Every Child Belongs podcast. She lives in the greater Cincinnati area with her husband, close to their five kids and eleven grandkids.


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Kara:

Hi, I am Kara, life coach, wife and mom to four incredible and unique children. It wasn't all that long ago that my son received a diagnosis that had my world come crashing down. I lacked the ability to see past the circumstances, which felt impossible and the dreams I once had for my life and family felt destroyed. Fast forward, past many years of surviving and not at all thriving, and you'll see a mom who trusts that she can handle anything that comes her way and has access to the power and confidence that once felt so lacking. I created the Special Needs Mom podcast to create connection and community with moms who find themselves feeling trapped and with no one who really understands. My intention is to spark the flare of possibility in your own life and rekindle your ability to dream. This isn't a podcast about your special needs child. This is a podcast about you. If you are a mom who feels anxious, alone or stuck, then you are in the right place. Welcome. Hello and welcome to the Special Needs Mom podcast. Today we have an interview, but what I wanna say or start off to introduce this guest is that she had me at her one line in an email she sent to me, and this one line was, she was talking about a previous guest, Carrie Baker, and she said, you can also confirm with Carrie that I'm reasonably stable and a very passionate person. I was like, oh, she's my lady. She's my, she's my person. I feel like that is, I don't know, it just, it's exciting, you know? I love passion and also I love a reasonably stable person. It's also passionate, so it was an. Yes. For me, we took a long time. She was the most patient person ever, and we have this conversation that was born here this week, and I'm gonna tell you a little bit more about Kim. Kim is a long time children's and student ministry leader who has spent decades also supporting foster and adoptive families. She's passionate about creating spaces where every child, no matter their background, behavior, or abilities, can belong, contribute, and grow. I mean, don't you love her already? Kim is A-T-B-R-I practitioner, a trauma free world affiliate trainer, and holds master's degrees in family ministry and business administration. She loves collaborating with children's ministry leaders to make churches more welcoming, especially for kids with trauma, backgrounds, disabilities, or neurodivergence. She's a frequent speaker on topics related to trauma, disability, and Neurodivergence. And the author of Boundless Hope for Every Child and Host of The Every Child Belongs podcast. Kim and her husband Mark, live in the greater Cincinnati area and loves spending time with her family, which includes 11 grandkids. And in the conversation, I think she says they all live within like a mile of each other or something crazy, and I'm like, oh, I'm getting jealous. In a nice way, in a generous way. So this conversation is gonna be an especially good one for you if you feel like maybe even a little hurt and you feel frustrated and have struggled to find places of belonging, especially in the places that should be the most welcoming, which, you know, Kim and I both agree, would be faith communities. So without further ado, let's welcome Kim. Welcome to the podcast, Kim.

Kim B:

Thank you, Kara. I'm glad to be here.

Kara:

All right, we're gonna have a fun conversation. Let's start with setting the stage a little bit of who you are, where you came from, where you are now, a little snapshot of both your life now, but kind of how you became and, and kind of arrived at where you're at now.

Kim B:

Sure. So I live in northern Kentucky, but it's considered greater Cincinnati area. I'm three miles from downtown Cincinnati. We have five children. The youngest two joined our families for adoption. We're at the age 10, one at the age 15. So that we learned a lot of our parenting strategies weren't effective, actually harmful with our daughters.

Kara:

Everything you thought you knew you, you probably thought I got this nailed. We got, we did such a good job with these three. Like we.

Kim B:

Well, actually, I mean that's why we adopted, because we were such awesome parents. We wanted other children to benefit from our parenting. But then our daughters taught us a new way to parent. And then we have 11 grandkids, which all live within a mile and a half from us, which is amazing. I am a long time kids and student pastor. My passion has always been, even in high school, like when I would work, vacation

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

that I really enjoy, and I didn't realize really until I was an adult that not everybody. Enjoy

Kara:

Not everyone gravitated in certain actually, and some people are running away.

Kim B:

Right, So. far as my family, we have a couple kids who are neurodivergent. we have some grandkids who are neurodivergent, and then of course our daughters from being adopted have experienced trauma. And what I realized is so often these kids are misunderstood.

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

They can't find a place to belong because they're different. I mean, there's not a deficit, but, the world is created for a certain kind of person. typical person, which to me the box of what's typical is getting smaller and smaller and smaller, which means we're leaving out more and more people. So my passion is helping people understand do we welcome every kid? Like, what does that mean? Because it's not about getting the kid to comply and act the way we want them to. It's about us changing, which we'd rather not do that. We'd rather just. Give him a pill, and a directive, and then it's all good.

Kara:

I love how you say it. How it is. Yeah. I think that's when we, and this is, this goes not just for this space, but I think, you know, as our culture is kind of recognizing how we as a society and culture. Have treated people, we have to recognize, ooh, like we have to actually change how we're showing up what we believe. we have to give away some of the power that we've enjoyed for so many years. And these are hard things and that's why we're talking about them. we're gonna talk about belonging and before we get there. You have a particular, I think certification training. I don't know exactly what it's called, but it's TBRI, which I think stands for trust-based relational intervention, and I was intrigued on what this is. Thank you.

Kim B:

You

Kara:

What is that?

Kim B:

a training. It's, particularly to help people engage with kids who've experienced trauma,

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

and it's all based on relationship and connection. And I became familiar with that when we adopted our two youngest. And realized how important it was to connect with our brand new daughters and to that relationship was the focus, not compliance

Kara:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

in the church, what I realized is we had more and more kids who were differently wired or disabled. because the principles of TBRI are based on connection and relationship. That works in any situation. I mean, you know, I mean, it works with our spouses when we're having a hard time with them. You know, if we focus on connection and relationship, the outcomes are much better.

Kara:

Yeah, I can definitely picture that. Let's even get a little bit more. Tactical, practical, What would be perhaps something, let's see if we can think of something on the fly here. Perhaps a behavior that is based in trauma that you might encounter. And how would relationship then be kind of, how would you engage in relationship? So I'm sure you can think of an encounter you had with a, a child, maybe you did know, maybe you didn't, that was something that you could see was a based, was based in trauma. Does something come to mind?

Kim B:

Right. Well first of all, lot of times we're not gonna know that it's based on trauma.

Kara:

Good point.

Kim B:

that's why I think too many people, you know, they'll come to me and say, well, how do I know if the kid's behavior is based on trauma or not? So I know how to respond. I'm like, well, you don't need to have a diagnosis. a label to be kind and compassionate and curious with a kid. that being said, if we are practicing these trauma-informed principles, if we see a kid who is not behaving in the manner which we want them to behave, rather than immediately try to stop the behavior, we take a minute,

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

take a breath. We make sure that we ourselves are regulated and that our face is calm. And then Dr. Karen Purvis, who is a pioneer in working with kids from trauma, she says, connect before you. Correct.

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

what that would mean is, let's say we have a sibling who, let's say our daughter, who. Has only been living in the family for a year, 11 years old, a brother's being a typical brother, and take something

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

she just has this response that seems huge. Rather than yell at her and say, settle down, which even that, I mean, yelling at somebody to settle down,

Kara:

I know it's so great.

Kim B:

that we're not settled down, but, so rather than yell at her instead. We make sure we're calm and, and we set, we connect with her, which could be as easy as Anastasia. It seems like you're really frustrated with your brother right now. It only takes a couple seconds. What that immediately does, it helps them understand, I'm on your side, I'm here to help, and then we can go in correction mode and talk about, you know, we don't hit our brother over the head with a stock pot. Or she never, she

Kara:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

I think too often we go straight to correction and we miss that opportunity to connect with the kid. And if we're about discipline and getting a kid to comply, discipline happens best in the context of relationship. And relationships are built through shared fund experiences. So you want your kid to comply with you more. then why don't you play a game of trouble and go out and do some sidewalk talk with them, because that's building your relationship.

Kara:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. This all makes so much sense. I was thinking of. so at the time that we're recording, we had, we just passed July 4th weekend or the, the holiday weekend. And on the fourth our family went to the beach and lovely time. and we actually didn't have Levi with us. He was at camp and so we chose to go to a beach that like you kind of have to hike into. It was super fun.'cause he's not able to do that with us.

Kim B:

Right.

Kara:

my daughter was collecting seaweed and playing in the water, and she wanted me to hold her seaweed, so I was sitting there watching her and holding a bunch of seaweed, and this little girl came up to me and started grabbing the seaweed out of my hand and. It was one of those things where I think just, I didn't expect it. right. And so it kind of caught me off guard. Like, and it actually, it's funny'cause I, I'm laughing'cause I'm like, literally it's like seaweed, right? Like really not a lot of value to this item.

Kim B:

And there's a whole bunch of it,

Kara:

There's a whole bunch of it. so it's not like I wanted the sea, I didn't care about the seaweed, but my daughter had asked me to hold it for her. And so that's where like the whole, like for me it was like, oh my gosh, like this is my daughter's seaweed. Like I was caught in this like really awkward, like, but not important. But I can also laugh about it'cause how non important it is, right?

Kim B:

right?

Kara:

so this, this girl's doing this and her dad, I don't, my, here's my guess, my guess is that she is neurodivergent or has some disability because of her. Size and her, just the way that she was acting and the way that her dad spoke to her, I kind of was like, I'm not totally, the language might not have been developed.

Kim B:

Right.

Kara:

I don't know. I have no idea. but that was my guess. And so it was just this interesting, experience for me to recognize, like, to kind of be confronted with this discomfort of what it takes to, move aside from our own little bubbles, but to be curious and non, judgmental.'cause I can totally see somebody that, that would happen to somebody and to be like, can you believe that dad? Let that girl do that. And so I think this is the time that I feel the most thankful for having a child who's disabled because I think I can more quickly get out of my own little head space and judgmental mind to think about. The alternative story that might be going on that I have no idea about. So I don't know. That was a little bit of a tangent, but I think going back to, I think the reason I brought that story up is because we don't know, you know, like, so your point about, how do we respond? You know, when someone's acting out of trauma? You said, we don't know. We don't know when they're acting from trauma. And I think the story I brought forth is like, we don't know if someone's disabled or not. And actually it doesn't matter, like any way you put it. It's a call forth to be generous and kind and curious. I think you said these three words, but I'm like, that basically is, if I have people leaving this podcast. Not just this episode, but all the episodes and they take on more kindness. Not just for others, but for themselves.

Kim B:

Right.

Kara:

compassion, again, not for others, but for themselves. And more curiosity, same situation. Then that would be mission accomplished. So anyhow,

Kim B:

Right,

Kara:

I'm on.

Kim B:

I want, I wanna know what you did with the little girl on the beach,

Kara:

Okay. Yeah. So what I did was I tried to explain to my daughter, I, you know, basically it's like, you know, it's, it's the beach, it's loud, like, right? So, like, I don't know how much I actually was able to communicate, but I, I let her take a piece of seaweed, which really wasn't letting her'cause she like grabbed it.

Kim B:

right?

Kara:

like, I, like, you know, that happened and I really. Was trying to coach my daughter be like, it's okay. We have plenty of seed, weed. She wanted to play with one. I don't know. I kind of tried to explain it to my daughter like, it's gonna be fine. And I tried to kind of make conversation with the dad'cause I was like, oh, we could bond over like having disabled kids. And I don't know that we did that, but but I did find out he was here on vacation, so that was fun. And, yeah, so I just tried to coach my daughter and laughed with a dad. I was like, oh my gosh. Like, I'm sorry about the seaweed situation. I'm not trying to hoard the seaweed.

Kim B:

Uhhuh.

Kara:

and we kind of laughed about it, but, that's what I did. So

Kim B:

Nice, yeah, and you know, you're right. You're talking about, we don't know if a kid's experienced trauma or not, but what we do know is every kid we encounter has a story that we don't know,

Kara:

yeah.

Kim B:

if it's our own kid, I mean our own kid. think we know everything about our kid and they might come home from school and just be in a terrible, terrible mood, but we don't know what happened with their friends that day. We don't know what a teacher may have said to them in the hall. I mean, there's always things about a kid we don't know. And talking about curiosity, and you were also talking about judgmental'cause I think we're so quick to judge. What I found is if I'm curious. If I'm thinking, huh, I wonder what, like, is this about the seaweed or does she just wanna get close to me? You know, I get curious. I can't be judgemental. If we're being curious, we can't judge because we're asking questions and trying to figure out what we're seeing, what that means and what the need is of the person in front of us.

Kara:

Yeah. It's almost like curiosity is the kryptonite of judgment where they like it, it like, I know that is good, huh? I was like, I the visual, you know,

Kim B:

Kara

Kara:

the k t-shirt. That's a good one. I love that idea. And what I was also thinking when you're saying that is curiosity just feels so much better for us. Right. So whether or not the person that we're being with or we're observing or whatever has an impact, it has an impact on us and how we show up in the world.

Kim B:

Absolutely.

Kara:

All right, let's switch gears a little bit and I wanna talk about. Ultimately, I think belonging for our kids. And I mentioned earlier, I wanna start with a personal story. and I want it to help kind of kick us off to, I think a fundamental challenge that many of us mothers are experiencing. And I think this happens a lot of places. And so we're gonna talk about those places, school. Church, city opportunities, camps and all that kind of stuff, all the different places. I think this occurs and I think it's for me, and I think a lot of other moms, I think it's particularly confronting because we're already so tired,

Kim B:

Alright.

Kara:

now we have to go change this fundamental issue where

Kim B:

I.

Kara:

ultimately my child. Doesn't have a space where they can belong in a way that works for them. And so the story I'm gonna use to kick us off is, something that happened this last fall, or maybe it's a conversation that happened this last fall that really sticks into my mind and, we were having a conversation. Meaning, you know, back and forth for several months with the school because they were voicing concern that they were not sure that they could meet the needs of my son and my husband and I were very open to that conversation. We were working with our advocate and it wasn't a black and white answer. I do, feel very confident looking back that. It really came down to not wanting to create a place of belonging for him that it became, too much work. Ultimately, I think. And not, work. That couldn't be done without care. All that needed to change is the commitment to asking what's missing versus thinking we've done all this and it's still not working, which is a very different conversation. But anyhow, that's what happened with school. But so we were kind of already having a, a challenge with his belonging and his support, and there was a conversation. I'll kind of set the scene a little bit better.

Kim B:

Mm-hmm.

Kara:

Ultimately, there was a behavior that had happened that day, and so I was called to the school into the back room where the school dean, which is kind of the vice principal and his behaviorist, my son, were kind of locked away. So I, came into this room and we're having this conversation kind of breaking down what happened, what was gonna happen, et cetera, et cetera. And the school administrator started to try to paint the vision of somewhere out there that was gonna be a better fit for Levi. Basically saying, this isn't gonna be the place for Levi

Kim B:

Mm-hmm.

Kara:

here. And I had a very. Raw response to that, which looked like, crying and really pleading and saying There's no place for my son. And I really was pushing back on which he was saying because she was operating under this idea, this false idea that there's somewhere out there that magically my son will fit. And I was so clear. I was like, no, no, no. Like that's a delusion. And I love that you think that,'cause that lets you sleep at night, but if you don't make a space for him here, he has nowhere unless I create it. And so it's my job to create it. And so I had a real, again, raw response for that and. and I'm glad, right? Like, do I like to show up messy? no. Do I like to cry in front of people? Not really. but I am also glad I let that out and really push back on this belief. So I wanted to start with that story because whether it's at school or I think even more heartbreaking is whether it's at church,

Kim B:

Oh yes.

Kara:

Where there's, I. I think ignorance, I think is a good way of saying like what's happening in the space. that it's, it's just absolutely heartbreaking. And then we as moms find ourselves in this intersection of seeing the impact of our children and also. Kind of all, like I said earlier, like maybe defeated or exhausted and not really knowing where to go. So I wanted to open the conversation, to just kind of hear how you think about creating spaces of belonging, both from the perspective of a mother, but also as somebody who has been a leader in this space.

Kim B:

First of all, I wanna say that story's heartbreaking

Kara:

It is. Thank you for saying yeah.

Kim B:

that should not be happening. And I mean, I'm hoping that there were all kinds of conversations before that about what his interests are and what his strengths are, and. I find that a lot of times those conversations aren't happening, as far as creating the, creating a sense of belonging for the kid, it starts with our mindset.

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

we are going in saying, this isn't a place for Levi. There's, unicorns of rank folks someplace else, and he can, it's just magically go there and it's gonna be amazing we start with a mindset that this is not the place for the kid, our behavior is going to. Be in line with that,

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

the place for the kid. And so when I'm working, especially with I do work with churches and nonprofits too, but especially with churches, because I believe church should absolutely be the place that every kid, every family, can find their place. And it, it's not happening. I don't know if you, the new statistics by Baylor, university and Eric Carter came out. Almost half of families with kids who are disabled or have special needs have left at least one church. Most of'em have left multiple churches. I talk to families all the time and for the church. The belonging part starts with us looking at these kids as fearfully and wonderfully made as amazing creations as kids who have unique interests and unique skills. But too often we focus the difference. And I love Temple Grandin. She says it's a difference, not a deficit.

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

somebody is wired differently, just because Levi responds differently, maybe to sensory input or to criticism, make him deficient. It just makes him So us as the adults need to know correction needs to be made with Levi because of the things he's experienced and what's happening in his brain. We are gonna have to change in the way that we deliver that. And too often what we're trying to do is fix the kid and make them change. And I mean, how boring would that be if everybody just responded in the same way? So as far as creating belonging, it's looking for what do we need to do in our environments make it feel safe for them? There's a guy, I can't remember, it was Alexander somebody and he said, When a flower doesn't grow, you fix the environment, not the flower.

Kara:

Yeah. Yeah. The visual. Yeah.

Kim B:

with kids. If a, if a kid not what we think is expected in the environment, we need to look at the environment. Go. Well, what do we need to change? And I'll give you a super simple example that I use a lot in my, my grandson, who's autistic. He also has CVI, which is a visual processing impairment.

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

sometimes he can see stuff, but he can't actually put it all together. he was in preschool, and the preschool teachers were getting super aggravated because every day they told him where to put his backpack in his locker and where to sit. Every day he'd put his stuff in the wrong locker and sit at the wrong desk.

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

And so that's a clue. Like if we keep telling the kid the same thing over and over again and they're not doing it well, the problem's us, like we need to figure that out. But they brought

Kara:

I love that. Yes.

Kim B:

I mean, yeah, you know, louder, more articulate, but doing the same thing over and over again is not going to change the outcome. So they brought in a vision specialist. The vision specialist is listening. Explaining his visual impairment

Kara:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

and

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

whipped out a roll of red tape and she outlined his locker and then she outlined his desk and then she told him, here's your locker. Showed him how to do his backpack, hang his backpack up there and his desk. Guess what happened the next day? Kara? Guess where he

Kara:

He nailed the backpack. Nailed the desk. Yeah.

Kim B:

And so that's, a simple example of if a kid isn't doing what we expect, then we need to dig underneath and say, why not for him? He simply couldn't. And this and that row of lockers and those row of desks, he couldn't identify which his was.

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

when he went to kindergarten. They passed on the red tape thing and when I went to grandparents' day here, this sweet little boy is sitting at his desk outlined in red tape. And then also what they did, they went the extra step. And when I talked to churches, I'm like, if the school can do this, the church should do this too. He was having trouble navigating steps. And they knew the red tape helped with his desk, a school employee got on their hands and knees and put red tape on the edge of every single step in the school so he could feel more confident. As he walked through the school. So what I say to people is, what's the red tape Like? What do you need to do

Kara:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

To make it safer, to make it more welcoming? Because if a kid wants to belong, I mean, if we want a kid to belong, they gotta feel safe.

Kara:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

scared on the steps or if they can't find their physical desk to sit, they're not gonna feel like they belong.

Kara:

Yeah, I love the kind of call out. It's like if you just keep doing the same thing over and over again and the kid's not doing it, like the kid's not the problem.

Kim B:

right.

Kara:

I'm thinking about all these things, I mean, it sounds so glaring when we're talking about it right now, but I think if we looked at different aspects, I can, I mean, I think of so many off the top of my head right now in our own life that I'm like, yeah, that's, we're trying to do the same thing over and over again, and then like we're frustrated that it's not working. So kind of going back to, and we're gonna pick on churches right now. Why?

Kim B:

going, Kara, we're going to encourage churches.

Kara:

That's what we're doing. But you know what we'cause I mean, I think we are, because I think it's like you and I both know that who Jesus ministered to the most was the disabled. It was the sick, disabled, poor, the outcast, the people that everybody else rejected. Would you augment anything and say it differently?

Kim B:

No, he, advocated for the marginalized

Kara:

Yeah, the marginalized.

Kim B:

he loved children. You know, there's a couple in the, in the gospels, examples or retelling of the story where parents were bringing their kids to Jesus. For him to lay hands on.

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

And in Mark it says that, as the disciples were, you know, kind of pushing the kids away, that Jesus got mad,

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

and I'm like, oh, this is good. So when I get mad at a church, when I get angry,

Kara:

Just like Jesus.

Kim B:

not welcoming exactly though, but

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

I believe that if Jesus. Was, I mean, he is here, right here with us. But if I think he's speaking to us, he's going, I welcome every kid.

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

be like me.

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

kid. And when he was saying that, you know, the, the parents were bringing their kids for Jesus. Lay hands on'em. I doubt that it was this orderly. all the kids standing there with their little hands inside the robes and, you know, I think kids were fighting over d drs. They were kicking rocks. They were asking for snacks. But somehow we have this distorted image

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

and I, my daughter-in-law actually,'cause I came home for a conference once and I said, you know that picture of Jesus in the hall with all the kids and the white robes and they're all super compliant and they're all looking at'em. I said, that is setting up the wrong expectation. I believe. And she goes, well, what do you, what do you think it looked like? I said, I think there were people crying. I think there were kids under tables, on tables, spilling stuff, double dipping the goldfish. So she actually created an image this that now is in churches across the country

Kara:

Wow.

Kim B:

with kids that

Kara:

A kid on its back pulling his hair.

Kim B:

I, well, there's actually, it's a, it's a girl standing at his back, braiding his hair.

Kara:

Oh,

Kim B:

there's,

Kara:

nicer.

Kim B:

yeah, there's all kind, but we, we get confused as far as what realistic expectations of kids are. And as far as the church, like my heart for the church, I believe that most church leaders want to provide a place for every kid, but I think they're afraid.

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

They think they don't have the resources, the people, the, they're afraid they'll do something wrong. And what I say is just take a step towards that kid or family and what the kid loves. I had a church that a kid couldn't stay in their room forever and he talked about matchbox cars. The volunteers like, oh my gosh, all the time. That's all we'll talk about is matchbox cars. So the leader said, oh, so he really loves Matchbox cars. Huh. So that's as interesting. And the leader started thinking the next week, brought in three matchbox cars, and guess what happened? The kid who could never stay in the room the whole time, stayed in the room the whole time with his three little matchbox cars that sometimes he would line up, sometimes he'd put in his pocket. it's just being curious about what a kid loves. And I would love if the church was the example to other places what it looked like. To accept kids as they are. That doesn't mean we still have boundaries. We still have expectations, but sometimes our expectations are such that some kids simply are not able to meet them,

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

they're unrealistic. We.

Kara:

Yeah. Well, you kind of answered a question I was gonna ask, which was kinda where do people get so stuck with this? Like why are there so many churches spaces that families and children don't feel welcome? And I think what I heard you say was they get a little overwhelmed and maybe a little bit of fear. A fear of like not doing it right. And would you add anything to that?

Kim B:

I think too, we can be really rigid.

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

way we think the hours should go,

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

I think we're also rigid and we think ladder brighter, more crowded is more fun. And actually it's not just kids who are neurodivergent. I mean,

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

typically developing kids that have trouble with that. So I think being flexible, look at, what would be the best. every kid. I mean, maybe we need to put gels in our fluorescent lights. Maybe we need to turn the sound down a couple notches. maybe we need to have buckets of fidgets in every room. I mean, there are, so I think flexibility is a, is another thing that's really important.

Kara:

okay, so let's shift to talk a little bit about kind of our role as basically moms, right? So whether it is, a mom trying and I, I actively am in this, right now with Levi. So, at our church, I would say. We're hobbling through

Kim B:

Mm.

Kara:

in terms of, it's not a place where we as parents feel safe. I think Levi probably feels safe, but he also probably feels like he, well he wants to do more than we'll let him do because we don't have the mechanics in place to be able to feel safe. anyhow, so.

Kim B:

Why do you not feel safe there?

Kara:

because the behaviors that he have, okay, so if we are not there actively supervising, the things that will happen is stealing. the things that do happen is stealing food over consumption. and I don't, I mean, this is more about other people feeling uncomfortable, which I care a little bit less about, but just like social nuances, you know, like that's gonna just happen. But I think. The thing like, so you know, we live in a coastal area, so in the summer, the church youth group does a beach night every Wednesday night. Well, firstly, Levi has a really hard time walking on sand. Secondly, during that time of the day, he needs access to a bathroom.

Kim B:

Mm-hmm.

Kara:

then thirdly, there's like food there, which is gonna be unregulated for him. At our home, we regulate all food for him. He does not self-regulate, well, I should say he does self-regulate, but he regulates to like eating all the things. So that is not a safe situation for Levi. So we don't necessarily have solutions to those problems. We have engaged in conversations with, with the church and they are ongoing. but. I think our urgency is a little bit more than theirs. We feel the pain more than they do.

Kim B:

Right.

Kara:

so that's where it's like, I, I find myself in this place of, okay, like what's next? So we've started conversations and there's a willingness. There is a willingness, I would say, on their part. they do have a desire, I would say. And so I guess let's talk about where do I go from here? What would you suggest to someone like me or to me, since I'm right here, as a next step to create a place where Levi can really belong without myself or my husband being his one-on-one support.

Kim B:

Yeah. Well first I would look at what's your goal, I think the church should be asking you that. What is your goal? is it that he gets to beach night or is it that he has peers that he meets with regularly? Where he is, you know, goal might be growing in his faith or maybe just getting increased socialization. I think we've gotta figure out the goal first, because it might not be about beach night,

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

might be about creating another environment during the week

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

secure environment with a bathroom nearby with, very limited food options. And I think too often what we do is we ask. We're asking the wrong question. It's like, well, should he go to beach night or not? Yes or no? We don't need a yes or no question. We need to determine what the goal is and then what might we do in order to achieve that goal, to get Levi in a regular rhythm of meeting with his peers outside of and

Kara:

I, yeah.

Kim B:

go from there.

Kara:

Yeah, that makes so much sense because I think also, so interestingly, I have a typical son who attends the same youth group and loves beach night, right? Like, and that's totally, I mean I grew up doing that, right? And so I think, you know, what I wanna digest is saying is like, we're not saying don't do beach night, right? Beach night might not be necessary for Levi to reach his goals, which is for him to participate in activities that he wants to participate in that are part of his church community. And so like that could be summer camp, that could be winter camp or whatever the things they do. It doesn't have to be beach night. And I think that's where I think. I guess the call out of rigidity goes both ways because Right. The, I think churches or places can be rigid, but I also think we can too, right? Where it's, if we get attached to, like it has to look this way, it has to look the same. I think we can get tripped up there, whereas the same is not necessarily what our kids need. But I think going back to the goal and really getting in touch with like, what's the mission that we're on here? And I think the mission is to find a place of belonging for Levi, and a way that he can participate, and enjoy himself as a 16-year-old and not have his mom and dad hovering over him at church.

Kim B:

What we're trying to, we're trying to determine what is best for that particular child. And I have a, a mom who shared, she had a kid who was autistic, went to this little Catholic church, little bitty town near us, and first communion was coming up and

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

dreading it. Like, oh my gosh, it's gonna be so hard. And the priest. You know, who doesn't have kids, but came up to her and said, I'm thinking about first communion and just the noise and the different, you know,

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

and what would be best for your child.

Kara:

Mm.

Kim B:

the mom was floored. She didn't even know how to respond at first because she had never thought about what's best for my kid. She was thinking about how do I get my kids so we can participate in this thing that everybody else participated in. priest then and talked with the parents, came up with the idea. They had a midweek first communion for this little kid,

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

this priest did the program, did the flowers, the kid determine who was gonna come. So it was all familiar faces.

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

now a couple years later, he can now take communion with the rest of his church family. But I think churches just asking the simple question, what would be best for the kid? I had, I had a church that was, they had a family that had a couple kids who were disabled. neuro divergent. Getting through food line on Wednesday was a big deal and they wanted a table close to the end of the food line

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

said, well, we can't do that because that wouldn't be fair to other people. And I went, well, like do, are other people having trouble getting through the line? Actually, I think not only should you give them a table close to the end of the line, you should also have volunteers waiting for them when they get outta the car and help the kids go through the line. One thing we, because we were gonna just have people prepare. Plates for them, but

Kara:

Yeah,

Kim B:

loved being able to pick their own food,

Kara:

yeah,

Kim B:

to go through the line, but it was too hard for the parents. So it's not about being fair, I mean it's doing what's

Kara:

I wanna go back to that question. So. I would have a hard time responding, I think with kind, compassionate curiosity to that question, calling myself out. were you able, so in that conversation with the person that responded that way, were you able to help them see beyond kind of where they were stuck? Like how did that go?

Kim B:

Yes. It went really, really well. And that's one thing too, I think sometimes as leaders, we're so worried about the perception.

Kara:

Yeah.

Kim B:

favorites? Are we, and what I said is what you're doing is you're modeling. the other people in your community, what it looks like to care for each other,

Kara:

Uhhuh.

Kim B:

maybe your family, who, you're all mobile, the kids are older, maybe you should always take the table in the back

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

and leave tables open for families that

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Kim B:

it went really, really well. And then she, you know, emailed me later to say that's what they were doing and families thought it was awesome. I mean, they had a little reserve sign.

Kara:

Yeah. Yeah.

Kim B:

and volunteers, then were helping the kids. And I think even finding, like originally it was like, we'll just have food waiting for them, but then when they

Kara:

Yeah.

Kim B:

love picking their own dessert. Well that was kind of fun. Then people got to learn, oh, little Susie, if there's any dessert with cherries in it, she's always gonna be getting that and so we're gonna hold some back for her. but no, it was a great conversation.

Kara:

That's so awesome and I think, a great place to kind of a great note to start to wrap up with because I feel like. As I kind of call myself out in terms of like, oh, I'd have a hard time responding like that feels like, oh, so disappointing to hear someone say, well, that wouldn't be fair. because as, as we know, life is not fair and our kids definitely did not get a portion of fair. And so. I think though, to stay in the conversation past the point of discomfort to navigate, like, okay, well let's talk about what. Is fair what we're going for and are you willing to actually let go of fair and oh, this rhymes let go of fair and move on to care. Oh, do you see what we did there? Okay.

Kim B:

t-shirt.

Kara:

that's just in the another t-shirt but really I think it's like, for me just thinking, okay, yeah, like we're gonna be encountered with like responses that just. Don't make sense in our lives, but they have made sense in the people we're talking to up until now, and we're gonna get to be the people to help change that and that happens through conversation, through kind, compassionate, curious conversation.

Kim B:

And Kara, we do need to be mindful of what our face is communicating because I have to remember, I wanna advocate for these kids. And if I come off really angry and nobody's going to listen to anything that I have to say, you know that, like the leader who said, well, that wouldn't be fair if I'd have just. Gone off on her,

Kara:

Yeah.

Kim B:

have had the opportunity. So I am constantly in my head thinking, what's your face communicating? Because sometimes

Kara:

I,

Kim B:

communicating

Kara:

I have to work on that because my face, when I'm really focused, my face.

Kim B:

Oh, yeah,

Kara:

Looks very focused, and my focused face I don't think looks very welcoming

Kim B:

Right,

Kara:

or friendly.

Kim B:

I'm right there with

Kara:

It looks very serious. And so I think I look at recordings or whatever. I was like, okay, like we gotta practice smiling when we're listening because I, in my mind, I feel different than my outside body looks like. Okay, well I hate to rush this goodbye, but I, I do have a, A call coming in. And so how can people get in touch with you? I know you have a book recently out. I'd love for you to drop the name of the book and of course we'll have links in the show notes.

Kim B:

Okay. kim botter.com is a great way. I, post all kinds of different things. I also have monthly hangouts with ministry leaders who are trying to create spaces for every kid to belong.

Kara:

Ooh.

Kim B:

through practical tips and tools. People will say what they need and then I. Create'em. and then I did write a book, boundless Hope for Every Child, help For the Hurting, compassion for the Misunderstood Belonging, for the Lonely longest tagline ever.

Kara:

I love the tagline though. It's beautiful. It speaks to like our insights here. Like it definitely, it means something

Kim B:

well that's, I mean, kids are hurting,

Kara:

I.

Kim B:

kids. My kids are misunderstood. They're lonely. So we as a church, we can provide help, we can provide compassion, and we can provide belonging. But, so balance, hope for every child. It's available on Amazon and then kim botta.com. You can get bulk discounts. The really cool thing, there's a lot of churches and, nonprofits that are buying it and then reading it as teams, and there's a

Kara:

Hmm. That's so cool.

Kim B:

it and all that. But yeah, go over to kim botto.com and then I'm active on Instagram at Kim Botto.

Kara:

Okay. Awesome. All right, well, the links will all be in the show notes as well, and so good to talk to you today. Thank you for spending time with me.

Kim B:

it was fun. Thank you.