The Special Needs Mom Podcast
The Special Needs Mom Podcast
Punched at Parties with Brittney Crabtree
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In this episode, I sat down with my friend Brittney Crabtree from Moms Talk Autism to talk about something few of us say out loud, aggression in our homes.
Brittney shares what life looks like parenting her non-speaking son with profound autism, while I share parts of our story with Levi, a brain tumor survivor with his own set of challenges. Together we explore what it’s like to navigate these moments, when love and physical or verbal aggression exist in the same home, and how it feels to live in that constant tension.
We talked about the gray area between parenting and caregiving, the weight of hypervigilance, and the mix of shame and strength that can surface in public moments. This episode isn’t about fixing anything, it’s about being seen, validated, and reminded that you’re not the only one living this reality.
Get to know Brittney & Moms Talk Autism:
Contact: hello@momstalkautism.com
- Sign up for The Pathway to Peace Coaching Community Waitlist
- Get The Special Needs Mom Survival Pack free resource
Connect with Kara, host of The Special Needs Mom Podcast:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thespecialneedsmompodcast/
Website: https://www.kararyska.com/
Kara: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Special Needs Mom podcast. And
Brittney Crabtree: Talk Autism
Kara: she is like, wait, what?
Brittney Crabtree: What? What am I supposed to say? What? No,
Kara: The pointing? You know, that was like you're cue No. Um, well,
Brittney Crabtree: Already
Kara: um, we are, uh, here. This is Brittany and Kara. We are here joyfully, uh, to talk about a not very joyful topic, um, but. Actually, I approached Brittany in saying, Hey, I wanna talk about this topic, and I think this would be well served, having more than one voice, particularly your voice.
And yes, we brainstormed about, you know, expanding beyond that. But you know what, we only have so much like bringing things together, capacity with everything else. So here we are as the start of this conversation. So. Let's start with talking a little bit about who we are, um, both as individuals, but also you.
You're here representing moms Talk Autism,
Brittney Crabtree: Yeah.
Kara: I'd love to hear about both parts of your life there.
Brittney Crabtree: Awesome. Yeah, so my name's Brittany once again. I live in Northern [00:01:00] California. I have four kids, um, three boys, ages 21, 18 and 17. Boom, boom, boom. I don't remember a lot of that time when they were super young. Just I, I go by pictures, you know, in old videos mostly. then, uh, we had a little break and then we have our little girl who is 11.
Um, so yeah, my husband and I have been married for 23 years, which is crazy. And, um, two of my kids are, uh, on the autism spectrum. Um, and they are. completely opposite ends of the spectrum, which makes it interesting, and I'm sure we'll talk about that maybe a little bit. But, uh, my, uh, 18-year-old Austin is non-speaking.
Uh, he's what would be considered profound or very severe. and we'll talk about what that means as well. And he, um. He has a lot of behaviors. He requires 24 7 supervision. He's not potty trained. Just kind of to give you an idea in your head listener, what that kinda looks like for us. He's bigger and taller and stronger than me. he's 18, so and then our 11-year-old [00:02:00] has autism as well. She is considered more of the mild to mod on that spectrum. attends a general education, you know, elementary school, um, with supports from her special needs class. So she kind of like has one foot in each world, I guess, in some ways. And there's some things that she can participate in fully, you know, as a typical little 11-year-old girl.
And then there's some things where she needs a lot of support and so we just kind of have to that plan for her, which is, you know, the whole point of those IEPs.
Kara: Yeah, well said.
Brittney Crabtree: Yeah.
Kara: And Mamas talk Autism. Why don't you talk a little bit about that?
Brittney Crabtree: Yeah. So, um, I am with three other amazing co-hosts. We host the, um, Mons Talk Autism podcast. We have met with Kara a few years ago.
We've done some podcast swapping. We've been guests on each other's before, and you're one of our favorites. I'm not supposed to say I have favorites, but you are. uh, we get together and we just talk about everything. , We all live in a different state. We all, uh, have different age kids, different genders, different, you know, um.
[00:03:00] Capabilities and challenges with our children. have nontypical, I mean, you know, neurotypical and neurodivergent kids. Um, uh, so we have a mix of both in, in all of our families and different situations too. You know, some of us. Have been single parents. Some of us have been divorced, some of us have been married the whole time.
Some of us, you know, all sorts of different walks of life and we try to have different guests on too. Maybe with some of those holes and things that we haven't experienced personally, we'll have another parent or caregiver on, or professional on to talk about specific things. So, um, if you love Kara's content, you probably gonna like our stuff too and vice versa.
Kara: That's a good plug. Yes. And I think it's so cool that the four of you ladies have come together and like you said, like you have a lot of common experiences, but then also you each have your individual experiences that bring, um, such a robust perspective, uh, to your show and you, you know, have different.
Uh, characters, you know, different. Um,
Brittney Crabtree: for sure.
Kara: thank you. Different thank you on different shows,
Brittney Crabtree: Yeah.
Kara: episodes, I should say. [00:04:00] And, uh, you know, the result is an amazing podcast. So yes, uh, we'll have the link in the show notes, um, and on my show and of course. When listeners listen to you, they'll already be listening to your show.
So come over and check out the Special Needs maba podcast. So let me tell you a little bit about, um, myself, Kara. Um, let's see. Actually, um, as of about two years ago, um, I also, we also have an a SD an. Autism spectrum disorder diagnosis. We worked very hard to get that one and add it to our long list of diagnosis.
Thank you. Genuinely, thank you. Because it has been a gateway into profound support, especially in the state of California. So I do I not to diminish the impact of autism. Uh, for so many of us, but we were already living with the experience that we were having. So to add on a diagnosis , that literally meant no difference for us.
Besides the support, it was a huge, huge, huge celebration. So, uh, so Levi is, uh, a brain tumor survivor. So he had a brain tumor [00:05:00] when he was two, and again, when he was 12. So we have done the cancer experience multiple times. So we, we have, , you were kind of saying you have a foot in different autism doors and of course neurotypical doors.
Um, same as I have four children. And three of my children are neurotypical. Like I, I'm just like you where I have three boys and then a little break. And my daughter, I think we're both stubborn.
Brittney Crabtree: Yes.
Kara: Yeah.
Brittney Crabtree: Wanted that one at the end.
Kara: Yes. I was like, 'cause uh, actually, so, uh, I was pregnant with my third son when Levi was diagnosed. So I was already in for three, needed to take a breather.
Um, but I was like, I'm not letting, I'm not letting this still my dream of having four children. And I'm so glad that I did not. So, um, as I was saying, so Levi has a long list of Diagnosises. Um, all of them, uh, stemming from the impact of the tumor and the impact of the treatments that he has received.
So
Brittney Crabtree: Yeah.
Kara: that we were able to save his life. And it's very common for [00:06:00] survivors of his tumor to have a very, um, what we say in our tumor communities, a very low quality of life.
Brittney Crabtree: Hmm.
Kara: you know, the topic we're talking about today I think is, um. Uh, something that I experienced before I understood exactly what I was experiencing.
So we'll get into a little bit more of that later. But, um, what else do I wanna say about myself? Yeah, so I live in, uh, , uh, sunny, uh, Southern California in San Diego. And, um. Yeah, I already mentioned, you know, I've these four daring children. I, I podcast full time and I run the Pathway to Peace Coaching Community and, um.
I also have been married for 20 plus years, I think. I think we're going on 22 in January, so we're just behind you, just a little, a little, the whisper behind you. And I think that's a sufficient introduction. Um, and before we dive into the topic, let's talk about who this episode may be for and who it may not be for.
Brittney Crabtree: Yes.
Kara: actually one [00:07:00] caveat I wanna put in kind of more related to the listeners that may have come from my show, and that is some of you, um, your children are not mobile. They're not able to get up out of their chair and or assistive devices. And so you may think, well, this episode is not for me. And I would say, well consider that.
It, it might still be. So we're talking about physical aggression today. Um. And it's very likely that even if you don't have the exact experience, there's something in your life that you're experiencing that falls under this umbrella of deeply misunderstood, deeply confronting, um, hard to be with. And so listen through the lens of how does this relate to you?
How does the experience that Brittany and I are talking about today, how does it help you feel seen? To have us highlight this aspect of, of part of our lives that we both experience and have in common. So that's what I wanted to say about that. But we also wanna talk about a trigger warning, um, that, you know, we are going to be talking about [00:08:00] extreme, in some case, physical aggression.
And so, , I think sometimes I was thinking about this in advance of the episode. I was like, I feel like. One of the survival techniques that you and I probably both do is like, we kind of laugh about what, what we experience of like, oh, you know, um, I got smashed in the door again today. Um,
Brittney Crabtree: Absolutely.
Kara: and that is okay.
And, uh, we don't mean to make light of what can be actually life threatening. And so if you're listening to this and you are currently. In danger, as in you do not feel like you have what you need to stay safe. This is when you reach out to the, the people that can hopefully help with that. And I do say, hopefully help with that.
'cause we all know there's gaping holes in our support systems.
Brittney Crabtree: Yes.
Kara: Uh, but
Brittney Crabtree: Okay.
Kara: I wanna make sure , um, that we, um, acknowledge that, um. This is something to be taken seriously and not to make light of, even though, um, we will bring some levity to the conversation today. So what would you add to that, Brittany?
Brittney Crabtree: I would just say, uh, yes, I, I think you covered things beautifully, but I would just say that [00:09:00] although we can talk about this in more general terms and it can be taken as such, can speak to Kara's experience and I can speak to mine. And that's really as far as our quote expertise goes in this particular field,
Kara: I.
Brittney Crabtree: you. There are things that you maybe can pull from this to your own experience, but , we are not going to be able to talk about this in any kind of like professional, comprehensive way. Like we're not gonna be able to cover any, all kinds of aggression in all kinds of situations, but this is just maybe gonna give you a little taste and then help you, uh, , maybe plant some seeds about how this applies to you and then maybe how it can help you.
Kara: Thank you for putting that in there. Yeah. We are not, we are not coming as subject matter experts. We are coming, uh, as moms with the lived experience that we wanna share because our goal for this episode is for you to be validated in your experience, , for us to normalize this experience that you might be having.
Um, and to kind of maybe I.
Brittney Crabtree: I would[00:10:00]
Kara: Stop.
Brittney Crabtree: maybe a little bit, you know,
Kara: Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Brittney Crabtree: I have no idea what this is. Like, what would it be like? Well, here you go.
Kara: Yes. Okay. So with that, um, you know, think back to a wondering in my head that I actually, it's funny, I remember exactly where I was when I was driving, when I had this like thought of like, oh my gosh, if. I were to tell somebody the experience I was having at home from a, you know, remove the personalities, but to say what was happening in terms of things are being thrown at me.
Um, so that some physical, um, I'm being cussed out regularly and being called names, um, and being shut in doors or. Hit, um, what would they scream at me? They would say, oh my gosh, you've gotta leave Kara. You have got to go. This is not okay. And they would, you know, that would be the normal and almost acceptable, um, response.
But then when I say, oh, but it's my [00:11:00] son and I'm his mother, it kind of, what do we do with that?
Brittney Crabtree: Right,
Kara: that's kind of a, you know, I had this awareness and I think it, it, it presents, um. I don't know. A little bit of a like, huh,
Brittney Crabtree: and,
Kara: what do we do now?
Brittney Crabtree: and not even that it's your son, but it's your disabled son.
Kara: Yes.
Brittney Crabtree: I mean, an adult, child could, be physically abusive to someone
Kara: Great point.
Brittney Crabtree: , And that would be, there could be reasons why you would need to leave and you should leave. But in this particular instance, there's even another layer, a very, very important layer on that where my son cannot take care of himself in any way or shape or form, like physically or mentally or anything.
And. I don't necessarily think that he is culpable or responsible for his physical actions. Now, that's something we can, you know, dive into maybe later. But there are many, many instances with my son where I don't think he's even aware of what he's [00:12:00] doing and that's very, very different than someone who has the intent to harm someone.
Kara: Let's stay there for a second because I find this to be one of the hardest aspects as I look to advocate for my son and to help him be in the world. So we, I would say at this time are at a more mild end as it relates to violence, explosiveness. Um, we are able to go out into the world, uh, in terms of, I'm not worried that we're, um.
Going to be in situations where we can't handle. Do I have to, um, be on the like, kind of, um, pre I, I have to do a lot of pre-gaming to make sure I put my son in situations that where I know where he will come against some things where we could easily have some, um, explosions. Um, but I'm, we're pretty good at knowing what those things are.
And for us, they're, I'd say almost a hundred percent food related.
Brittney Crabtree: Mm-hmm.
Kara: So, um, yeah, [00:13:00] more on that later, but, um, so where was I going with this? I was gonna go with culpable. Okay. So I think in knowing when our children are to be held accountable
Brittney Crabtree: Hmm.
Kara: for their actions and whether it's a parenting moment. Versus whether it's a moment where we just move on and accept what is.
I find this to be, oh my gosh. It is the hardest aspect I find of this part of being a special needs mom. What is your experience in this area?
Brittney Crabtree: I think that's a great point and it's very true. Um, it, and it can be applied to many different kinds of situations. How much of this is something that we need to maybe. the behavior as opposed to maybe we need to parent, like, do I need to be a caregiver or do I need to be a parent in this situation?
Maybe that's the, the
Kara: That's a great way. Yeah.
Brittney Crabtree: Yeah. And do I need to care for this person and help them work through this [00:14:00] sensory issue or , this aggressive, um, you know, episode? Or do I need to try to teach them something?
Kara: Mm-hmm.
Brittney Crabtree: Um. In the case of my son who's 18 and has an intellectual disability, has profound autism and has very, very limited communication, more often than not, we are on the caregiving side of that.
It is very, very. Rare where I'm doing the teaching in some ways kind of like how you were talking about people, you know, um, family members who are maybe immobile and maybe don't have the same kind of quote behaviors or aggression that we do. there is some, there's like almost like a silver lining to how incredibly. Obvious it is my how, how disabled my son is and how obvious it is to other people around us. And to anyone who comes in contact with. You're gonna see Austin and within , less than a minute, you're going to know that he has some kind of disability. and that makes it very [00:15:00] clear and very easy to maybe. Be understanding or to offer help or to clear away or to, you know, give some kind of grace or space for that in public. Or, you know, who, if you're just meeting someone for the first time, maybe someone more like my daughter or your son, there's maybe a little bit more of a gray area where they can communicate a little bit.
They maybe seem like they're quote, you know, typical or normal or like you're trying to assess the situation for a longer period of time as to, okay, what am I dealing with here? Am I dealing with. snotty, you know, spoiled kid who's just screaming about getting their way, or are we dealing with like a sensory disability , or intellectual problem here?
And, that's where maybe a child who's higher functioning might be a little bit more difficult. So.
Kara: Yeah, I'll speak to a little bit my experience too, and what I've noticed over the years. So Levi is 16 now and. I think that when he was younger um, it [00:16:00] was less apparent that he was disabled.
Brittney Crabtree: Yes.
Kara: And so now in my, in the older years, I think it is more apparent. And I do think that that is a little bit of a silver lining because I do think that it helps us caregivers.
Um, trust that other people won't be judging us to the level that we fear that they would without it,
Brittney Crabtree: Correct.
Kara: it kind of gives us that like space to know that like they know that this is not like the other.
Brittney Crabtree: to explain it to you. You can
Kara: Yes. Yeah. Like read the room. Um, here's back to what you said about, I love the way that you distinguish in terms of like.
How we handle this part of, do we hold them accountable and do we hold them, um, culpable. What I find in our experience is that. Because I know Levi and his dad knows him obviously better than anybody else. And because he is highly capable in a lot of areas, he's [00:17:00] very, very intellectually savvy. Um, which again gets us in a lot of trouble.
Um, too good, right? So he's brilliant at working around the support structures we put in for him. Um,
Brittney Crabtree: Love
Kara: but that school. Leans towards the teaching
Brittney Crabtree: Mm-hmm.
Kara: , And actually we even had an instance where there was, um, something that had happened that had affected some other people in terms of it, it caused a little bit of a mess.
And the automatic, uh, solution from the school administrator was to have Levi. Apologize to the person impacted. And I had real strong feelings about that. 'cause I'm like, wait, are we asking him to? . I will say I believe he understood the actions that he was taking.
Do I think he. Was able to not take those actions No, I don't, I don't think that he has the ability to process his emotions in the way that he needs to, to not act out in the way that he does.
Brittney Crabtree: Yeah.
Kara: , And so to ask somebody to [00:18:00] apologize for something that they actually don't have agency over that doesn't feel good to me.
Brittney Crabtree: Right,
Kara: So , I actually wrote an email to the school with my initial response and. Again, this is an area where I start to feel insecure a lot of times. 'cause I'm like, am I, am I the mom? That's like evading responsibility for my son.
Brittney Crabtree: right.
Kara: enabling him or am I like right , to defend him and advocate for him.
So I ran it through chat. I said, I want an unbiased third party. And I said, he told it my concerns. And I don't know about your chat GDP, but mine is so affirming. It's like, great question Kara.
Brittney Crabtree: Like, well.
Kara: It's so good if you to ask. I'm like, well, I mean, no, truly, I'm like, it really has me wrapped around its finger.
Um. But it was validating. It was like, no, like great point. And I loved where it went with it. It went basically to, it suggested perhaps rather than apologizing for the action, he could express [00:19:00] gratitude for the support. And I was like. Boom. That is brilliant because that is genuine for him. I'm, I'm okay with teaching him to acknowledge people that are supporting him and to recognize there is an impact, right?
And we don't have to feel guilty or shame about that, but we can acknowledge that at a human level. So it's a little bit of a tangent, but I think it's worth kind of highlighting this part where. Well, just the challenge I, I mean, we, we don't have necessarily solutions here, but rec, recognize and validating the challenge of not knowing where to land in terms of this caregiving versus parenting and teaching role.
Brittney Crabtree: And I will say just very quickly that that is a cognitive load that is not spoken of. Often, and it is something that you need to be maybe aware of. And if that's happening to you and you're just feeling so overwhelmed, maybe that's why, because not only are you trying to be a good parent, you're trying to be a good caregiver, and you're trying to figure out which one you need to be in that moment.
And that's really, really hard to do, [00:20:00] and it requires. Time and experience and messing up. make mistakes. You're not gonna get it right every time. I certainly don't, you know, we've been doing this for many, many years, you and I, and I still make mistakes and I look back and I'm like, oh, maybe I should have been a little bit more of a parent in that situation. I mean, we don't expect typical parents to get everything right and as. You know, a parent of disabled children, you're not gonna get everything right either. So just trust your gut and keep practicing. It's a muscle, it's something that you'll build up and you'll get better and stronger at as you go, and you'll grow with your child , as these situations come up for you.
Kara: Great point, and I think, um. One of the reasons why we wanted to talk about this, right, is recognizing the load that these unanswerable questions have on us, particularly when something has so much stigma as violence. And I wonder if we go back to lay a little bit more of a foundation to back up a little bit and just to kind of talk about what specifically are we talking about?
Like what does violence in the home look like? I mentioned a couple [00:21:00] things earlier, but I guess if you were to. Give somebody a picture of what you hear from your community. Um, of course, pull from your own experience if you'd like to, but like what does it look like for you?
Brittney Crabtree: Yeah, so I kind of divided it into three separate categories When I explain it to people, just kinda giving a blanket idea of what my house looks like. There is violence against property, property damage, so there's that kind of violence where it doesn't involve necessarily another person, but things get damaged in my house. That happens often in my home. There is violence towards other people. Um, whether that is, it's typically in my house, it's towards myself or my husband. Um, sometimes his brothers a little bit. Uh, all three of the boys are about the same size, same weight, same everything. So it's kind of a, an even match if you say so.
They can defend themselves, my two typical boys, and they can, they know kind of what to do. We've, we've done training and talked to them extensively through the years, and they, they kind of know now, and then there's, um, there's violence against [00:22:00] yourself. There's self.
Kara: Mm-hmm.
Brittney Crabtree: violence, you know, um, , hurting himself. We have all three of those things in our home and, uh, it fluctuates. Uh. One way or the other between those three, I can have all three in one episode or we can really be kind of focused on one thing with him, um, at a time. And it, it just depends. It depends on the situation. And all three of those can also present themselves in public. And where it becomes really, really scary and unsafe for other is when we're having violence towards other people in public.
Kara: Mm-hmm.
Brittney Crabtree: and that's where it's really, really difficult for us to maybe, um. be around, be, be part of the community if we're having a lot of violence towards other people, you know, for a particular amount of time.
Kara: Yeah, and I think, um. What I'll add in terms of, so I, I'd say we have a lot of the same, um, a lot less of the self-injurious aspect of it with, um, with some exception. But I think what I would add is I would have what I would call verbal violence.
, Obviously that's not going to be part of your [00:23:00] profile
Brittney Crabtree: part
Kara: in your, in your experience.
And so there's a lot of words that come out . Of my son's mouth. And it is actually so interesting, you, you talked about, about Austin, you're like, I don't even think he knows what he's doing. If I were to tell people that know Levi, the things that he has said in these moments, I don't think anyone would believe me because it is so out of character with who he is, which also tells me this isn't, isn't who he is.
This is what's happening. This is how he's communicating and all he knows how to do at this time. And, um, anyhow, I just think it's so interesting. Um,
Brittney Crabtree: this, I would say the same thing applies to Austin when he is trying to hit me. I don't think , that's not who he is. A
Kara: yes.
Brittney Crabtree: It's not. , If I had to like, create a visual, I would say it's like, , there's a bar, right? I'm, I'm doing a horizontal line and once we get past that bar, we're above it.
We're like, like a [00:24:00] bowl seeing red, you know, in a China shop or whatever. You wanna, whatever visual you wanna say, like he is not. Present. He is not there. He's not culpable. He is not really understanding. He is in some kind of other state of mind where I don't even think he knows where his body is or what his body is doing, that doesn't mean that he's just flailing around and not, you know, being. He's not trying to target, like he, he's looking and
Kara: Mm-hmm.
Brittney Crabtree: things in particular, but I don't think he is connecting what his body is doing to what his brain wants him to do.
Kara: Mm-hmm.
Brittney Crabtree: Um, and , there's a variety of different ways that I've maybe kind of figured that out because he can't tell me and I can talk about those, but just, yeah, verbal or physical. I think that situation applies to both.
Kara: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I think Levi learned the language when he was little, um, of flipping his lid. And actually I think this might have come in from zones of regulation, which is kind of a, a b, A based and kind of, I think, um, is maybe [00:25:00] more prevalent in the, um, kind of behavioral, um. Education kind of settings.
Um, yeah, I think very much that, well, when any of us are escalated beyond, you know, at a certain level, , our frontal lobe turns off, it's like it's not needed in the fight or flight of life. And so I think that this just happens to our children, I think at a more profound level. And I think also my son has a lot less, um.
Inhibitions. So he's already, uh, very impulsive in nature. And so we add these two together and we get these extreme expressions. So.
Brittney Crabtree: recipe. Yeah.
Kara: Perfect recipe. And let's talk a little bit about like the why and I think, 'cause I think this is important for you, especially, you were just talking about, um, you know, being out in public and where some of this starts to occur.
And I know communication for you, um, in terms of your experience with Austin is a lot different. I can talk to Levi and not always get an understanding of where he's at, but , I can still have conversations with it, which is obviously very different than not being able to have conversations. And so how do you see.[00:26:00]
The lack of communication and like the relationship to the expressions that Austin will have.
Brittney Crabtree: The lack of communication is a huge, huge struggle and challenge. , It's the number one challenge for him, having behaviors, being able to be in public, his aggression, frustration, um. I also, not only do you have to discern whether I should be a caregiver or a parent, then you have to discern , is he present?. Is he accountable for these actions and whatever it is, throwing bark on the slide or stomping around or taking his clothes off or trying to , take all the leaves off the tree or trying to hit me, , coming at me, right. All those things I have to discern. Okay. Is he really here with me or are we just, . I'm not gonna be able to like reach him with eye contact or whatever it is. All of that together, I have to make those decisions in a split second sometimes. And , it's difficult, like I said, and you have to have experience and it takes time to build that up. then you also have to, I have to then. [00:27:00] Communicate for him in some ways. I always presume competence. I always assume, even though I al I don't necessarily think it's always the case. I always assume that he can understand me. I think that's appropriate and. Correct. Considering his age that I am going to, I'd rather assume and have him maybe, you know, over overshoot that than, than assume he doesn't know things and treat him like a little child.
Kara: Mm-hmm.
Brittney Crabtree: I try to, I try to approach it that way and then I will. Speak for me, and then I will try to answer in a way that I think he would want me to.
Kara: Mm-hmm.
Brittney Crabtree: I, I have a two-way conversation kind of with myself. I mean, I'm looking at him
Kara: Mm-hmm.
Brittney Crabtree: Hey, are you feeling overwhelmed right now? And I'll say, and he'll say, yes, mom.
I, I feel my body is really like out of control right now. I think we need to go to the car. And then I'll say, okay, do you wanna go to the car? And I try to like. Speak for him in a way that I think would be appropriate. And sometimes I do it correctly, sometimes I don't, sometimes I can see a spark in his [00:28:00] eye because he's realizing, yeah, , that, that is what I want. And then I try to act on that immediately. You have to be very, very, um, aware and super hypervigilant if you're gonna use that kind of model. Um, and it's, it is not always successful. I just wanna be very, very clear on that. But, uh, it's the only way I can find in those heightened. moments or aggressive moments where I feel like I can kind of reach him in any way.
And sometimes I know that's not gonna work and we just have to ride it out and there's nothing I can do except wait.
Kara: Mm-hmm.
Brittney Crabtree: , That's when it's really, really hard. Those are the worst ones, of course. Um. I have a recent, um, experience. My husband took Austin and the boys up camping one night with some very dear friends, people who knew us well and knew Austin well. And, um, someone had, had their father-in-law come and he kind of knew us, but did, when didn't spend a ton of time with us. He knew Austin and he would watch my husband Austin was wandering around and kicking dirt and playing with rocks and, you know, just messing around at the campsite. And this father-in-law was watching my husband, and he says, [00:29:00] you never take your eyes off him, do you? You are always watching what you are so hypervigilant in watching every single little thing he does, we don't even realize we do it anymore. When I go to the park, I am not on my phone scrolling around. I am
Kara: Mm-hmm.
Brittney Crabtree: watching him for all of those many reasons. It's for his safety and everyone else's safety. so that's a huge part of the lack of communication is the amount of safety vigilance that I have to then kind of. And take care of, I dunno.
Kara: Yeah. Yeah. And so in the next we're gonna do the two part episode. In the next episode, we're gonna talk about the impact of that in terms of us as caregivers. But um, yeah, I mean, as I'm listening to essentially . The strategies that you've developed, it's like you're doing the communication for both of you.
Um, and that's a lot, uh, higher gradient than it is just trying, I mean, just communicating for ourselves.
Brittney Crabtree: It is
Kara: out what we are feeling at [00:30:00] when, in any given moment. Like that's already, like we don't always get it right. So trying to step in um, and it's just really, I wanna acknowledge you for the, the beauty in what you described in, in being tuned in with him, into trying to give him, um, words or, uh, mere back what you think he's experiencing.
And, and like you said, sometimes getting it right and sometimes not, but, um. Just kind of a beautiful picture , of you being his both mother and caregiver. So, you know, we're talking about these things happening in our homes and out
Brittney Crabtree: Mm-hmm.
Kara: and people see and actually they sure do. And um, I think when I had approached you.
Um,, I had an experience. Uh, we were at a graduation party over the summer and, um, I needed to, I said, it's funny, , Levi does not really, uh, move unless he has a very good reason to.
Brittney Crabtree: Okay.
Kara: Usually that reason is food related. And [00:31:00] so I saw him get up for, I Like You, I was at this party doing the party thing, talking to my friends, but my eyes were still on him in terms of my awareness in terms, it was like really focused on what's going on.
Brittney Crabtree: of my brain that is
Kara: Huh?
Brittney Crabtree: watching him.
Kara: So I saw him, I saw him get up and um, I was like, oh boy. And I saw him making a beeline for the bonfire, which had s'mores. And I was like, okay. And this was already after a lot of other food related, it wasn't going well. Let's just put it that way. And so I said, all right, I have gotta curtail this, and so I gotta get to him before he sits down because if he sits down, I will not be getting him back up.
Brittney Crabtree: See, and , that's that experience that I'm talking about. You knew this is the trigger, this is the point. If I
Kara: Mm-hmm.
Brittney Crabtree: get this beforehand, then things are gonna escalate very, very quickly.
Kara: They will. And so I did intercept so he didn't get to the seat. Um, and in which case, you know, I'm talking to him, you know, talking him through it and saying, I need you to come over this way, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. [00:32:00] He did not like this. And so he hit me and it hurt. Actually. That one hurt. He got me good.
And so. You know, I'm like having this experience supporting him, but I'm also aware of like, people are watching this go down.
Brittney Crabtree: Yep.
Kara: not, but I mean, in my mind I thought they could be. And so the episode title that came into my mind, maybe not right away, was getting punched at parties. And I just thought it kind of made me laugh, right.
Um, because this is a real life experience that we're having. , But actually it's interesting 'cause years ago I probably would've had a lot of, um. I don't know, I would've felt like, what are they thinking? Et cetera, et cetera. There might've been some drama in my mind, whereas I was experiencing thinking, wow, my, my friends must be in awe that I could handle getting hit several times and stay calm
Brittney Crabtree: Mm-hmm.
Kara: show up for Levi and not have it even be a thing, you know?
And so, I think I was also proud of myself in the moment. [00:33:00] That I knew how to support him, um, and that I didn't also let the fear of what other people would think change the way that I showed up for him and what he needed. And you know, in that moment did he say, yes, mom, I need your help? No, he did not.
But overall the picture was, I was doing what was best for him. So, but I wanna talk about this and I share that particular story because I wanna talk about social reactions and shame and so. There's kind of two aspects of this. Um, there's just the experiences that we're describing, whether we're at the park or camping or at a party.
People are seeing what's going down and have you, I don't know. Can you pull from any stories that anything come to mind in terms of what kind of reaction you've gotten out in the world?
Brittney Crabtree: Oh, I've gotten, so, I've gotten the full gamut. I mean, I could give you examples from one extreme to the next. I've had scream at
Kara: Oh,
Brittney Crabtree: and yell at me what my child has done. Um, that was probably the worst one. And I, I must say, uh, I did [00:34:00] not react appropriately and, um, maybe yelled back a little bit.
So, you know, it is what it is. I have not done that since. So I've
Kara: I understand. It might not be the appropriate response or the most evolved response, but there's the part of me that's glad that you did.
Brittney Crabtree: Yeah, well, she, she kind of had it coming a little bit and she was being a terrible example to her children. But anyway, we got through that one. Um, that was, that was a pivotal moment for me, and I realized in that moment that maybe I need to think about this a little ahead of time. someone does this again, I need to maybe have a little bit of a game plan.
And
Kara: Mm-hmm.
Brittney Crabtree: I have been able to do that. I've also had the exact opposite where we've been having, we were having an extreme physical altercation. Um, my son was strapped into one of those Caroline carts so he could not get out, but he was doing everything he could to hurt me while I was trying to push him out of the store. I had. Everyone from staring at me. Uh, I think I had one person who started videoing me, which was not appropriate for them to do [00:35:00] complete stranger, but I was too
Kara: Yeah, you are in the zone. Yeah.
Brittney Crabtree: see was like tunnel vision to head to that door. Right. then , I also had people coming up to me, two different women in that particular, it's always the women guys, uh, the other moms who come up and they were like me in the face and saying, do you need help? Let me help you, you know, , and being able to, use them to help me get my child out to the car, get him into the car safely, not run away in the parking lot, then able to then return my cart full of food that I had not paid for back into the store. So
Kara: No,
Brittney Crabtree: it was a whole thing.
Brittney Crabtree: Yeah, we can go from one extreme to people being very angry , and aggressive towards me, and the opposite of helpful versus being very, very helpful and very understanding without me having to say a word. And, and then there's everything, you know, everything in between. you know, I've, I've even had people. I, I've had a child, Austin was, you know, we're at a park and there was a coach there getting set up to run some drills. I think it was soccer balls with volleyballs or something. And no one else was there yet. He was, he was there a little early setting up and Austin was messing around and he went over and grabbed a ball and I was, oh no, no, don't touch that stuff.
You know, he is trying to set it up and things. And I turned to , the coach and I said, I'm sorry, he's autistic. He doesn't understand. And he just looked at me. He goes, oh.
Kara: In a good way, like was that.
Brittney Crabtree: I think he meant it in a good way, but it kind of came across a little
Kara: Okay.
Brittney Crabtree: like, like a duh, I can tell lady, you know, I was just like, well, I have to assume that you don't know.
Maybe like, I, I don't know. He was, he
Kara: Right.
Brittney Crabtree: or nine years old. Who knows what you're thinking and I
Kara: Yeah.
Brittney Crabtree: to you yet. I didn't know. [00:01:00] Anyway, it was fine. Like, I don't take offense to that. It, this is another thing that you will develop over time as long as. Your muscles of discernment is , your little tough skin.
You'll, you'll get a nice little layer on you with people around and their judgments maybe, and , their perspectives of you. But, but yeah, I love reach a place where you could be in a public place. Have your child be violent toward you, and you walk away, Kara, and say, I'm so proud of myself for the way I handled that. , That's the goal. Okay. That's great. Because we may not be able to change the behaviors, but you could change your reaction to it.
Kara: Yeah, exactly. And I think it didn't come overnight, right? Like this is years, this is years of practice. And you know, by no means , have I arrived because do I experience that every single time? No, I do not.
Brittney Crabtree: no.
Kara: and I know you seem right, but, um, but , I feel like I look back over the years , and actually one thing I, I will mention, uh, because I think it's important.
Is that we got a medication in [00:02:00] 2021. That is pivotal, has been pivotal in toning down the volume of the explosions. I would say the frequency, I don't know. I don't know. How we would be doing it if we did not have this particular medication. And so what's interesting is even though in some ways a lot of things have gotten more challenging, particularly we have a lot more mass behind Levi, , um, he's got a large stature, if you will.
Brittney Crabtree: Yeah.
Kara: and so with that addition, if we had not toned down the volume, I, I don't know how we would be doing this, but. Um, but I'm sure you do.
Brittney Crabtree: Well, it's, that's great that you found one that worked. , I would say we have made significant progress, but we have not found that magic's. Sauce that we call it the cocktail, the medication cocktail of all the different things he takes for a variety of reasons to, to find that sweet spot.
Yet I think we're getting closer. Um, and I think some of that also has to do with maturity. Maybe the end of [00:03:00] that pubescent stage where you're going through all those like major hormonal changes. I think that is also con, it's not just, oh, it's never just one thing guys. It's never
Kara: No.
Brittney Crabtree: thing. uh, but yeah. To find that place, at least what's working for now. It might change for you, but to have that for now. That's wonderful. That's really, really great.
Kara: Yes. And thank, thank you. And I think though I look at , my evolution and I see that even before we, we got that relief, if you will, I feel like I had to grapple with how do I be in public when actually, and I have this very clear memory of I was dropping Levi off to school and we have kind of a curb we pull up on and I was getting him out and he was upset about something.
I don't know what it was, but I do remember. Um, him trying to smash me in the car door, like, so I, I was like right there. And so
Brittney Crabtree: the door on
Kara: he was trying to close the army. So if you just picture me kind of just getting smooshed in the door, I was still standing up. And, um, and then a mom I knew and really [00:04:00] respect, like walking by and I remember just thinking, and actually it was, it's kind of a beautiful thing because she's really a gracious mom and I think it actually gave me a little bit of access
to kind of maybe have that shift of like, she's not judging me.
Brittney Crabtree: Mm-hmm.
Kara: , Yes, she saw this thing, I don't have to like, feel bad about it.
Brittney Crabtree: No.
Kara: I don't know, like I feel like it was like this kind of a pivotal moment. 'cause I remember this so clearly in my mind thinking, oh wow, this must be quite a sight.
Um, but it kind of being kind of the start of me being able to kind of have less energy about these things happening. Um. So those are the social reactions kind of from the community at large, both in our home and out of our home. Um, and we haven't even touched on the siblings yet. We may or may not get to that.
Brittney Crabtree: a whole, that's a
Kara: That's,
Brittney Crabtree: right
Kara: I know.
Brittney Crabtree: Many
Kara: Um, but I wanna turn to talk a little bit about what we'll call the professionals.
Brittney Crabtree: Okay.
Kara: And , I'm putting that in quotes because I say that I guess with a little bit of, um. Uh, I don't even know, uh, in completion behind it because, I have [00:05:00] personally had the experience of it was with a therapist, um, not my current therapist for this being one of the reasons I remember, um, talking to her about what we were experiencing.
And I remember the shift, like she stepped out of like that. Space of being a therapist and holding space for me, and she stepped into what her experience was, which I don't know, but I'm guessing is this isn't okay, I have to fix this. It was almost like she stepped into the role of, and 'cause she started giving me all sorts of, have you tried this?
Have you tried that? Like, Kara, this isn't okay.
Brittney Crabtree: Yes.
Kara: And it's like, well, I, I understand it's not okay.
Brittney Crabtree: Yeah,
Kara: is what is,
Brittney Crabtree: here. Yeah.
Kara: yeah. We will not be fixing this. You will not be fixing this in this conversation. There is no solution for this problem.
Brittney Crabtree: Right.
Kara: Yes, , there's avenues for support and help in learning, and I believe that we're gonna explore that in a second episode.
It's like, what do we do about this? But it was so [00:06:00] distinctly like, oh, this is where it's beyond what she's comfortable being with.
Brittney Crabtree: Mm-hmm.
Kara: Um, because it's so unique, like I probably never in her professional experience has she experienced, um, one of her clients being in what I'll put in quotes as abusive relationship, but also relationships she's not willing to get out of, um, for all the reasons we've talked about earlier.
So I know you've had some similar, you don't have to go into the details, but I wanted to kind of put this in there as like something that we might, you might be experiencing you to the listener that, um. Not every professional knows how to hold space for this particular aspect of our caregiving life.
Brittney Crabtree: Yes. I think that's so huge and, and important to remember as you are searching for maybe your own mental health or physical health that you need, but also for your child. Um, I've had. There's a full gamut of reactions I've had from professionals as well. Many of them are very professional and they're able to offer a lot [00:07:00] of help.
Like they can figure out what the problem is. , And they can offer me solutions to this problem. That's great. But whether it's a medication or a therapy or a certain thing that I need to do with his body to help him with this thing, that's great. I'm so glad we figured out what it is. how do I do that?
Kara: Okay.
Brittney Crabtree: it's, it's the execution of, you found the solution. That's wonderful. How do I execute that with this person who is bigger, taller, stronger than I am, has a propensity for aggression, and cannot speak or understand what I'm trying to do. Um, and they look at me and 99% of the time they have no idea. And so then I am then left as the caregiver and parent to try to figure out how to execute this plan that I have been given by a professional. to be able to kind of like separate those two things is helpful for me because. can usually find a solution to a [00:08:00] problem or at least something to try, like, well, have you tried this?
Have you tried this? Have you tried? Great. I can't get that thing in his body. Like
Kara: Yes.
Brittney Crabtree: I, I literally
Kara: your idea
Brittney Crabtree: get it in him.
Kara: and.
Brittney Crabtree: what do you want me to do about this? You got anything else? Can I give it to, do you have a liquid form? Do you have a da da da? Like, like, we'll go through the full thing and, um, this is particularly, um. Uh, prescient in my life because we are dealing with a lot of constipation issues. And so I know what the problem is. I know how to help someone who is constipated, but it, those solutions are not being able to be executed fully with someone who is unwilling and unable to understand
Kara: Mm-hmm.
Brittney Crabtree: we are doing that.
Kara: Mm-hmm.
Brittney Crabtree: um, if you can, Ima, I mean there's so much we can go into that very graphically, but you know. So, uh, that's part of it. And then I also have the professionals like kind of more in your experience, whether it's a therapist or , uh, you know, a physical medical, whether it was a neurologist or whoever it was who I start explaining the problem to them or [00:09:00] explaining my situation, my life.
Giving them , a picture, you know, verbally, like telling them what, what we go through every day and the violence or the aggression or whatever. And I can see their jaw becoming unhinged and falling to the floor as I talk to them. And I'm like. I have been able now as experienced caregiver and one who has many, many conversations with many professionals realize, okay, ding, you have absolutely no idea how to help me or have heard anything like this before in your life. in a way it kind of like, it's gotten to the point now where it's kind of like, ha. , I've won the prize. Like I have become the most extreme example of whatever you think you know what to do about this, like, get gold star for me. But you can also suss them out now and you're like, okay, maybe you're not the person. Or maybe you need to talk to somebody else who is, and then we could work together on this. But maybe I need to keep searching for somebody who has at least some [00:10:00] kind of experience or some touchstone to what my situation is in this moment.
Kara: Totally. And I think it's like, so, and back to kind of the therapy, uh, in terms of like actually mental health therapy. Um, I wanna touch on that just for a second because, um, well, I wanna address what you just said and say, I'm sure that you, um, more than you even realize that have certain ways of sharing your story with providers
Brittney Crabtree: I've got
Kara: like in
Brittney Crabtree: Yeah.
Kara: to, yeah.
To like get the response so you can get to the point where you're like, can you or can you not help me? Are you or are you not?
Brittney Crabtree: efficient about it. Like I have a way, like I've been able, because I've said it so many times,
Kara: Mm-hmm.
Brittney Crabtree: have a way to comprehensively give you a glimpse and then gauge your reaction pretty quickly at this
Kara: Oh, I'm sure you're So, I would love to watch, I would love to witness that. It's like, it would be so great.
Brittney Crabtree: Yeah.
Kara: Sorry Doctor, I'm just gonna record this because my friend Kara would like to see,
Brittney Crabtree: Yeah.
Kara: , I wanna jump just to put this in there because my fear is that [00:11:00] a lot of you will, will write off all therapists who do not have direct caregiving experiences.
Brittney Crabtree: Yes.
Kara: And I would say, let's not do that.
Brittney Crabtree: Right.
Kara: let's not be so fast to do that. Yes, it can be profoundly valuable to have a therapist who does have caregiving experience or perhaps experience with, you know, the type of violence that we're talking about.
Um, but don't let that be a make or break factor in finding a mental health therapist. I'm a huge believer. I mean, I'm a coach, so like I coach. I don't do therapy and I believe that both have places and value, and so I would love to see more of us have amazing therapists. And so I wanna just put in a note that , just because someone doesn't have the direct experience doesn't mean they can't hold space for us and really support us , in this work.
Brittney Crabtree: I completely agree with you. Um, some of the best therapists and a, b, a, you know, RBS and people who have direct access to [00:12:00] Austin are not parents themselves. And have very, very little experience , in the field. Right. they have been able to, , it's a personality thing. , It is an experience thing.
It's training, it's, it's a lot, you know, it's their own childhood, whatever you wanna say. There's a mixture of all those things that can make someone the perfect person to help you and support your child. And , it's not always those who have the letters behind their name or who have had 10 years, you know. Working with children of, of your child's caliber or whatever. So I agree with that completely. Yep.
Kara: Uh, okay. Well, let's see. Um, is there anything else we wanna cover in this particular episode, uh,
Brittney Crabtree: um, , I guess maybe to wrap it up, I would just say, huh. If you're feeling very alone and very isolated , and like, no one else can understand or even comprehend what you're going through. Um. It's not true. Now, someone gonna know exactly every little [00:13:00] instance and every little nuance of your particular situation?
Not necessarily, but there is a lot of overlap for many, many, many of us out there. And, um, you know, even Karen and I have very, very different children in their capabilities and maybe even their expressions of aggression. But at the same time, there's so much overlap and there's so much that. in car's situation that applies to my situation and vice versa. And so there is a real. Validation and, um, sense of compassion and a sense of connection that can come with speaking with other people who maybe are in a, not the same but similar experience to you. and I would highly, highly recommend maybe searching out those people. We'll talk about that more in detail in another episode, I think.
But, but just kind of keep that in mind. That's what you're looking for. You're not looking for this person who's gone through the same exact thing you have. But maybe somebody who's gone through something that can relate to you , in a particular way or in, in many particular ways , that's been the key for me.
So,
Kara: So well said, [00:14:00] and I. Yes, emphasizing, and I think this is what we're gonna get to in episode number two, is, okay, this is our life. This is what we're experiencing. Um, and so how are we going to support our children? , Our families, our relationships and ourselves through this. And I think it starts with exactly what you just spoke to and is not doing it alone is recognizing that, talking about it, connecting about it, um, giving language for the experience that you're having, um, is, is going to be pivotal.
And I wanna, I'll speak to one episode I did recently and, um, I'll put in the show notes. I think I called it. Let me look it up really quick.
Brittney Crabtree: While. While you're looking for that, I'll just say that. That piece of it. Being able to connect and validate and hear other people's stories and share your own is just as important as looking for some kind of practical solution. I think both of those pieces go hand in hand and are just [00:15:00] as valid and just as important.
I am never gonna , stop searching for solutions and ways for my son to communicate more effectively for us to reduce his aggression, for him to be able to. Contribute and be a part of society more. I will never, ever give up on that, but I am also going to look for support and accept where we are right now and try to be happy and find ways for him to be happy and me to be happy and everyone to be able to like live in some kind of harmonious way despite these really, really. Scary and, , you know, hard challenges in our lives. Just keep that in mind. , It's a lot. I know it's a lot. The cognitive load is, is burdensome at times, , but both of those pieces are just as important.
Kara: Oh, so well said. And I think part of the cognitive load. So I spoke to this in the episode called Nobody Else has It This Hard, and it was released originally September 17th. And in India I talk about a event that happened in our life and I'm leaving the event vague. Um. But it was a big one. Uh, it was a big one.
It was [00:16:00] public. It had a lot of long-term ramifications. I actually do think I shared it with you specifically,
Brittney Crabtree: and
Kara: so if you can
Brittney Crabtree: not the
Kara: Right.
Brittney Crabtree: things. Yep.
Kara: But, but what was so interesting in that, what I speak to in the episode is that it would've been real easy for me to go down a real negative thought pattern. But I had met with somebody earlier that day that was going through something totally different, but.
They had the experience of having it be out of control, having it be scary, having it be all these things. And so for me to have that data running through my head of this other person who I love, respected and admire, was going through this thing. When I was going through it, it was like, oh, okay, well this person out there is doing it, so I guess I'm gonna do it too.
And it just kind of neutralize the potential. Four. Um, I think a thought pattern that we can go to, and I think the episode I called it nobody else has it this hard
Brittney Crabtree: Hmm.
Kara: because I think that when we have these [00:17:00] extreme cases, right, severe autism is gonna give you stories and stories upon stories about the severity of it.
Um, and I think it's easy to go to the place of nobody else has it this hard, which is only going to lead us down. Um. Probably like a little bit of self pity, and that's not where we'll find any of those things that you just spoke to in terms of fulfillment, contentedness, happiness for you and of course your, your children.
Brittney Crabtree: been there. I've, I've literally said those words to myself in my
Kara: Yeah.
Brittney Crabtree: loud. Yeah,
Kara: We all have, that's why we're saying it. Right?
Brittney Crabtree: Okay.
Kara: Um, okay, well with that we're gonna wrap this episode and we'll see you on part two. Um, , uh