Digging Deep Without Trying Harder: A Different Kind of Healing with Erin Popp

What happens when everything you intellectually understand still doesn’t help you survive the hardest seasons of motherhood? In this episode, I talk with Erin Popp about complex grief, chronic uncertainty, and what it really means to dig deep when control stops working.

Read the full show notes here. 

Connect with Kara, host of The Special Needs Mom Podcast:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thespecialneedsmompodcast/
Website: https://www.kararyska.com/

Transcript

Speaker 2 0:05

Hi, I am Kara, life coach, wife and mom to four incredible and unique children. It wasn't all that long ago that my son received a diagnosis that had my world come crashing down. I lacked the ability to see past the circumstances, which felt impossible and the dreams I once had for my life and family felt destroyed. Fast forward, past many years of surviving and not at all thriving, and you'll see a mom who trusts that she can handle anything that comes her way and has access to the power and confidence that once felt so lacking. I created the Special Needs Mom podcast to create connection and community with moms who find themselves feeling trapped and with no one who really understands. My intention is to spark the flare of possibility in your own life and rekindle your ability to dream. This isn't a podcast about your special needs child. This is a podcast about you. If you are a mom who feels anxious, alone or stuck, then you are in the right place. Welcome.

Speaker 1:14

Hello and welcome to the Special Needs Mom podcast. Okay, we have a guest today. Actually, it's funny as I just said that I almost said, and welcome to the Pathway to Peace Coaching Community, because I've been doing so much over there and focused on that community so much. I don't know, just like was what was gonna come outta my mouth, but. We just closed enrollment. So if you're listening to this and you're like, wait, what are you talking about? Don't worry, don't worry. We'll open it again at some point. And so my suggestion is to go get on the wait list. Okay. But beyond that, today is a new episode, a new guest, an incredible woman, and I'm very excited to introduce her. She was recommended to me by one of our dear Path to Peace community members and my friend, and. I'll give her formal introduction in a moment, but I wanna tell you a little bit about what to expect in the episode and a line that really sticks out with me as she was describing the undercurrent of her experience. And a line she said was, I was supposed to show up. Okay. And I was like, oh, boom. I feel that one deep. I feel that one deep because as special needs moms, we are the frontline. We are doing all the things. We are holding it all together. And then we're supposed to show up. Okay. I mean, that's what we sometimes tell ourselves, whether that's true or not, that's a whole nother conversation. But it's like, how do we do all of this and hold it and then show up? Like, you know, we got this all figured out like in the IEP meetings and you know, in spaces where it maybe it's not totally expected to like bear your whole story. What else In this episode we talked about, you know, what it looks like for Erin to dig deeper, and she has some language that you'll hear in the episode that I just really loved and I highlighted it. And I mean, I think essentially she's talking about the exploration of what digging deep looked like for her. And it wasn't just trying harder, I'll tell you that. And. I think was a great model of kind of a way of being that will give us access to what that looks like for ourselves. And you know, Aaron and I talk about it in the episode. It's not the same for any of us, but hearing one another story helps highlight our own story. And in a way that I think honors the uniqueness and wholeness of who each of us is. Okay. Let's tell you a little bit more about Aaron from a little formal standpoint. Aaron Pop is a licensed educational psychologist with more than 30 years of experience supporting children, adolescents, and families across educational and clinical settings. And over 35 years working with individuals with special needs. She spent much of her career in Southern California school districts working as a psychologist and intervention specialist, where she conducted psychoeducational assessments, providing counseling, and collaborated with multidisciplinary teams within the IEP process. She now owns a private practice where she focuses her clinical work on psychotherapy with. Adolescents and adults. Her areas of expertise include learning disabilities, autism spectrum disorder, anxiety, depression, trauma, grief, adolescence, parenting, and chronic illness. She's known for helping families and individuals navigate complex emotional and developmental challenges with both practical guidance and deep compassion. Erin is also certified as a spiritually informed therapist. Who thoughtfully integrates psychological and spiritual perspectives in ways that honor each client's beliefs, preferences, and goals. Her work centers on helping. People find meaning, resilience and healing through life's most difficult transitions. And what her formal bio does not necessarily include is her personal story that intersects so beautifully to really develop her. And if you look at her career, she was the school psychologist that was sitting across the table and, and giving us all those assessments that we were supposed to fill out. And then she had her own experience as a mother that radically tr transformed what it looked like for her to support parents and families and children, of course, in that way. And I think that's where you're really gonna connect with hearing how her story again, intersects with your and I story. So without further ado,

Kara 5:43

erin, welcome to the Special Needs Mom podcast.

Erin 5:47

Oh, hi. Thanks so much for inviting me. I really, I love the work you're doing and I think the community that you've created for parents is so meaningful and so needed.

Kara 5:58

Thank you. Yes. You were highly recommended by a dear friend who I trust, respect and admire. So I was like, basically anybody she sends over, I'd be like, yes, without even knowing you. But then as I've gotten to, you know, we've interacted a little bit as we prepared for the show. I don't know, even just our, our conversation before we hit record. I'm like, oh, there's so many things we have to talk about. I know. they're just, you know, I think. As we've, you know, you and I, and of course the listeners have navigated all the different parts of our professions and how it intersects with our personal life. and just so much like, I guess unfolding and so much, learning about who we are and how we process things and, how to support ourselves through that. So that's ultimately what this conversation's gonna be about, but let's get you better introduced to this community. Okay. And I wanna look at two different parts of you, and that is personal and professional. So let's start with who you are as a professional.

Erin 6:53

Okay. As a professional, I've been working as a psychologist for, more than 30 years now. A large part of my work has been centered on children and adolescents with special needs and their families. but I actually started working with, children with physical impairments and visual impairments 35 years ago. Oh, interesting. When I was, working through undergrad. Yeah. I just felt really passionate about it. So, after I graduated grad school, I, began working in Southern California public schools as a psychologist, supporting kids with IEPs. Mm-hmm. And I did a lot of work specifically with adolescents who were really navigating. Severe emotional behavioral challenges, and learning difficulties.

Kara 7:39

Mm-hmm.

Erin 7:40

So that was all, that was, 22 years before then, before I opened my private practice and left the school. Yeah.

Kara 7:47

So it's funny as I'm, you know, hearing you talk about the kids you supported, it's also the kid that I have. And thinking about you on the other side and kind of being the professional, doing these assessments, and being that person in the IEP room that, Plays such a critical role. Mm-hmm. not just in the professional assessments, but kind of setting the tone for, being part of the support team. Yes. So let's jump, we're gonna make a quick jump to say, okay, that's a little bit about who you are professionally.

Erin 8:15

Mm-hmm.

Kara 8:15

And now let's jump over to the personal and how that kind of all, maybe intertwined at some point.

Erin 8:21

Yes.'cause it definitely, I went off the rails. I would say, I think my kids always had, you know, medical challenges when they were younger, but when my daughter was a teenager, she was 14, she started, exhibiting some really, scary symptoms that, she was vomiting, constantly. She was, passing out frequently and she had mobility issues. which were really scary. And, her health was declining very rapidly and it took about four or five years of seeing bazillions of specialists and getting kind of ridiculous type of answers.

Kara 8:58

Mm-hmm.

Erin 8:59

until we got something that made sense and she was diagnosed with. Er, danslo syndrome and pots. those are the main ones. and then a couple more years for us to seek treatments in various cities and states for her. While the meantime, my son, who's younger, began facing his own medical struggles, which were still still on that. That path. But it's been, I would say, 10 years of a lot of living with, medical uncertainty and that, You know, invisible grief, I think, and mm-hmm. I felt so isolated. I felt, so alone because it, it really felt like it was hard to find community. That's why I just think what you provide for people is so deeply meaningful and needed because I felt so alone and I felt like I was supposed to show up places and be okay Uhhuh when nothing felt okay. And I mean, I even had people say like, I, I don't do sad. You know? It was like, wow. I mean, I am a level of sad that you can't possibly imagine because there is nothing worse than watching your child suffer.

Kara 10:12

And I wanna dive into that because you had shared with me earlier that, you know, especially from a professional standpoint, that you understood intellectually fear

Erin 10:23

Yeah.

Kara 10:23

And all you know, and grief and sadness.

Erin 10:25

Mm-hmm.

Kara 10:25

But that watching your children suffer was a profoundly different experience. And I would love to hear a little bit more about kind of differentiating the intellectual understanding mm-hmm. Versus actually you experiencing that.

Erin 10:40

Yeah. It's hard to even put into words. it's so profound, you know? Mm-hmm. I had done, I, I can't even tell you countless, hours of trainings in trauma and grief and, and anxiety and stress and chronic stress and, And, you know, you hear things, people say things like, oh, self care, take care of yourself. Mm-hmm. And, and do, mm-hmm. You know, do these, put the oxygen mask on first. And when you're living under those types of conditions with your children and you're on, like, what feels like a life and death rollercoaster every day, self-care is. A concept that is so ridiculous, like, I don't know. I mean, I know people mean well, but it, it wasn't really. It wasn't possible a lot of times. Like, what does self care mean, I guess, you know?

Kara 11:33

Well, yeah, there's that. Right? And so I, I, but I, I definitely want to validate that experience. It's like, it's, it's like telling somebody that's in the middle of the ocean.

Erin 11:42

Mm-hmm.

Kara 11:42

treading water, just trying to keep their head above water, quite literally, to stay alive, to say, oh, don't forget to go paint those nails. And, you know, clearly that's not necessarily even self-care, but I use that example to be kind of like hyperbolic about it. Yeah. But just recognizing. And then a lot of self-care lands on moms as one more thing to do. And I've talked in detail about that. I don't think that that's what self-care is and think it's really more of a relationship. But I do think that, I think people dunno what else to say. So they're like, oh, take care of yourself.

Erin 12:14

Right.

Kara 12:15

Yeah. Look at that. are you getting massages? No.

Erin 12:17

yeah.

Kara 12:18

But, Anyhow, back to the topic. So, you know, you had the professional expertise, and yet what I hear is that you were still experiencing all of the things you technically knew how to treat.

Erin 12:31

Yes.

Kara 12:32

Yet you were still experiencing, and what do you make of that now?

Erin 12:37

I mean, I think it took years for me to understand like what self-care could look like. Do you know what I mean?

Kara 12:44

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Erin 12:44

In, in a, how could that work in my life? How could I, take care of myself so that I can keep giving on a continuous, you know, minute to minute, hour to hour basis at home. And for me, it was a long, long journey because, Of, learning? Well, I, I never wanted to meditate before and I really dove deep into that because, what I really found relief in, in that just finding like, you know, just a few minutes to clear your mind and ground yourself. That's what self-care ended up being for me. Mm-hmm. Just those minutes of peace during the day to be able to access it and find it.

Kara 13:24

Yeah.

Erin 13:24

Nice. So it was so different. So different from what I thought self-care was or, or even all the strategies and the trauma informed approaches that you use when you know when you're working clinically,

Kara 13:42

yeah.

Erin 13:43

Survival, I guess, just had a whole different meaning and I had to dig so deep for it, and that wasn't something that I could have ever understood. Clinically before my own personal experiences. I don't know if that answers your question.

Kara 14:01

It definitely does. And I, if it's okay, what's really sticking out to me is what you just said is I had to dig so deep for it.

Erin 14:08

Yeah.

Kara 14:08

And so for as much as you can remember, like what did that look like for you and, and describe a little bit of the experience of, of that digging.

Erin 14:17

Yeah. so I have to throw in, I had, maybe six to eight years I think of my children really having, these severe medical complex challenges. And then my younger brother, walked into the ER with what we thought was a very treatable infection and he died within hours. And the. Devastation. That I felt in the overwhelming grief was, I, I don't still have words for it really. It's just like, some people refer to it as the dark night of the soul where you don't mm-hmm. You're walking through the world and you see that the world is the same and you can't make sense of it. Like everything internally feels so different. And so in this. State of, such profound grief. digging deep for me, I was finding nature. I did a lot of crazy things. I would, some days when I was so, consumed by grief, it would just be like, get myself outside to stare at the clouds

Kara 15:24

mm-hmm.

Erin 15:25

And center myself, like, just focus on the clouds and what they're doing. I it, I know it sounds crazy or getting outside to, see the birds in my backyard. and I think from that point, I really started learning about meditation to, try to calm the panic that was happening nonstop inside my brain.

Kara 15:49

Mm-hmm.

Erin 15:49

And, and breath work and learning to really ground myself. And, and that's, to reset my nervous system.'cause my nervous system was on, like, it is just going off the rails hyper, you know. Vigilance hyper alert, you know, 24 7

Kara 16:06

and what I wanna, yeah. What I wanna add here is, and I'm, the reason I'm asking a lot about this is I think that this is an area where we can both be experts and beginners at the very same time.

Erin 16:19

Yeah.

Kara 16:20

And what I mean by that, especially for like you and I, like, we have a very intellectual understanding of what it takes to do all these things. Yet we also experience. All of the, you know, the anxiety and the fear and the deep grief and all of these things, right? That we technically, I don't wanna say simplifying it, but technically have the answers for Yeah. And, so that's where I think that, and you know, you're just talking about. And I love the way you're talking about it. I did a lot of crazy things, meaning you tried a lot of crazy shit thinking maybe this will work.

Erin 16:51

Yeah.

Kara 16:51

But I think, and I really wanna highlight, and I, I acknowledge that like, that experimental, like I'm gonna keep trying something until it helps being in the pursuit of mm-hmm. of wellbeing and of being grounded. And I think, and this is the thing where I think what I mean by we are both experts and beginners at the same time, is I think, It takes getting out of our expert mind to be able to experience the groundness that we all desire. And so it's like you have to let go of all that, you know?

Erin 17:20

Mm-hmm.

Kara 17:21

In your thinking mind to then actually experience, The work in your body and that for a lot of us to let go of the control that we have in thinking and analyzing and knowing mm-hmm. Is deeply vulnerable. And actually it's a learned skill that many of us haven't practiced yet. And also I'll add, even if we have practiced. It still is difficult, and I will be very transparent saying like, I have a very deep understanding intellectually, and I don't know that that's helpful.

Erin 17:51

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kara 17:52

Maybe it gets in the way. Right? Yeah. And that's where for me, I think my, persistence to kind of always be talking about community, community, community. We cannot do this on our own. Yeah. Is because that has been the most effective tool for me. To be supported by other human beings to be held in those spaces of becoming grounded and reconnected. that we, and I, I'd love to hear your take on this. even in the experience of grief, that grief is not designed to be a solo sport, that actually it is, we are, designed to be with one another. Mm-hmm. And so what are your thoughts? Like, even as I'm, you know, kind of. I don't know, just talking about all this stuff.'cause I get pretty passionate about it. What are your thoughts on, the aspect of doing this work, in community?

Erin 18:44

I mean, I think it's lifesaving to do this work in community because, I we all want to be seen and understood in our experiences here.

Kara 18:56

Yeah.

Erin 18:56

and I think that was a, a lot of my personal struggle was really, trying to find community because people seemed really afraid of the grief that I was bringing. Mm-hmm. And and I was just like, I. I am showing my grief all over the place. I can't seem to hide it anymore.

Kara 19:19

Mm.

Erin 19:19

I couldn't go places and appear fine at all. Yeah.

Kara 19:23

Mm-hmm.

Erin 19:24

So for me, community, to find community that you can be your authentic self and, and to have the space to be authentic and true to what you're experiencing just means everything.

Kara 19:41

Yeah. And I, I am thinking about even a moment last week where, I couldn't hide my grief anymore. Right. Like I, it just, it was bubbling up and I was not able to, as you said, to show up. Okay. And I was okay with that. Mm-hmm. what's also coming to my mind, and if it feels perhaps, like something you're not ready to talk about, I very much want you to say so, but. You've shared that, you know, the grief of your brother's passing really was for you what really, called you to grieve in a whole new way.

Erin 20:10

Yeah.

Kara 20:10

And what's coming up for me is, perhaps the grief you were already experiencing

Erin 20:16

mm-hmm.

Kara 20:17

With the undiagnosis is and the diagnosis of your children.

Erin 20:22

Mm-hmm.

Kara 20:22

That, Is a type of grief that I think is even even more challenging.

Erin 20:28

Mm-hmm.

Kara 20:29

To have other people understand. So, you know, if you went to an average room and described what you were going through with your children, I don't think most people would say, oh, you're experiencing grief.

Erin 20:40

Mm-hmm.

Kara 20:41

But if you share what happened tragically to your brother, with your brother, they would all expect you to grieve. And so, I don't know, I guess I wondered if you would just speak to that maybe from your experience. particularly how we as a special needs mom community can help, I guess create more spaces where it's okay to grieve. Yeah. Because we all recognize that that's what's happening. I don't know. What are you, what are your thoughts as I kinda,

Erin 21:09

I mean it is, I guess they need to come up with a term for that, don't they? It's like, yeah, we just came. They do up. Well, we just came up with the term, you know, now it's very common. You hear complex trauma.

Kara 21:21

Yes.

Erin 21:22

and we understand how to treat complex trauma. Mm-hmm. And it's like, it's very similar. To complex grief. I think, you know, it's the same concept where we used to think, you know, post-traumatic stress. You, you always thought a, a trauma was one event. Yeah. And, and it took us a long time to learn how much. More challenging, complex. Mm-hmm. Trauma is when you have repeated traumas happening, and I think that grief feels very much the same and, and I think that's it. You explain it so well and that that's really what was happening with my children and I felt so alone. Yeah. And I I couldn't find people really, for a very long time, that really could understand what I was going through. And, and I withdrew from so many people. Mm-hmm. Because it was like, I don't know how to show up how you want me to show up. And I can't do it, you know,

Kara 22:21

or Yeah. There's so much there.'cause I relate to that a lot of, I'm thinking back even to like, I remember, we were facing, so my son's story, is that he's a multiple brain tumor survivor and he, his first tumor when he was age two, and then, Right when he was turning 12, he, was diagnosed with recurrence. Well actually say it was right after he's 12. And so, of course, you know, my husband and I are processing that information and doing all that. One needs to, to deal with the actual medical part of it. but then there was the, like telling friends and family and community, and even now as actually as I'm talking about, I can start to feel it, deep in my, my core. And just like how it's already so fragile, it's like I'm already barely holding it together. Yeah. And then to disclose to another human being that's gonna have their own responses.

Erin 23:15

Yeah.

Kara 23:15

That then ultimately my therapist told me, actually no, it was a really, a dear friend of mine, a coaching friend, and she was like, Carrie, you're not responsible for other people's emotional responses.

Erin 23:27

Yeah.

Kara 23:28

Again, something intellectually I could understand.

Erin 23:31

Yeah.

Kara 23:31

But experientially, I think being with their emotion, any of it was too much. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so the idea of, of sharing transparently what was going on was like, I just didn't want to.

Erin 23:44

Mm-hmm.

Kara 23:44

You know? And so I think that that for very understandable reasons. I think that's where a lot of times, like, we wanna be known, we wanna be seen. Mm-hmm. But we can get a little stuck.

Erin 23:55

Yeah, for sure. Did you get a lot of people that, say, oh, you don't have to talk about it.

Kara 24:01

I'm trying to think. I don't think so. Well, because I can go to a very stoic place where people will be like, are you a human or are you a robot? I'd be like, I'm a robot.

Erin 24:11

Yeah.

Kara 24:11

A very happy robot. Leave me alone. Yeah. So I can, I can,

Erin 24:15

to your armored up

Kara 24:16

uhhuh. Yeah. I could armor it pretty well. And actually no, that's even A joke with a, a former therapist was like, I would've made a great soldier. Mm-hmm. Because I can do, I can do, I can operate very functionally

Erin 24:27

Yeah.

Kara 24:28

In a, really stressful situation. Where I am much more challenged is in the processing, the emotional impacts of all of those things. So I feel like, because of how I showed up, I think people maybe weren't as sensitive, to trying to like. Calm me down a little bit. Yeah.

Erin 24:47

Yeah. I think'cause I, I am kind of, my emotions are out there. You're

Kara 24:51

not the, you're not the robot that I am.

Erin 24:53

No. It's taken me a long time. I was always seen as like, oh, you're too sensitive. You're so much, you know,'cause my, my emotions are very intense. But yeah. I've learned to be much less emotionally reactive. In

Kara 25:06

together. We're a perfect pair.

Erin 25:07

Exactly. We balance each other out. I was like, I hope that I don't cry during our conversation today'cause this is all like, you know, it's all emotional stuff.

Kara 25:18

It is. Yeah. And I, crying's always welcome here. Oh, thank you. I was crying last week, when I was recording on my own.

Erin 25:24

yeah, which

Kara 25:25

is a little easier'cause like you can edit out like the space it takes to cry.

Erin 25:29

Yeah. So, mm-hmm. I, I mean now I'm just like, oh good, I got all that out. I release. To, there goes another layer of healing, you know? Hoo. Until the next week when there's another layer.

Kara 25:41

Yeah. Until, until there's the next layer. Exactly.

Erin 25:45

That's for sure.

Kara 25:47

Okay, so let's. keep the conversation kind of in a similar place, so you mentioned something, that your personal experiences like with just within this medical uncertainty of not knowing what's gonna happen next.

Erin 26:00

Mm-hmm.

Kara 26:00

Chronically and, you know, I think it's one thing to have something one time, but to chronically have uncertainty, which is I think the experience. Of special needs moms, whether it's behaviorally.

Erin 26:11

Yeah.

Kara 26:12

or whether it's medically. And I think they, from an emotional processing standpoint, they hit very similarly.

Erin 26:18

Mm-hmm.

Kara 26:19

even though externally they look very different.

Erin 26:21

Mm-hmm.

Kara 26:21

So how, you know, if we're gonna talk about, okay, so this is a condition of being a special needs mom. Mm-hmm. How can we stay connected to like hope and meaning? Or even spirituality when we are dealing with all of this uncertainty and of course, overwhelm and even just the, like, unfairness of it all.

Erin 26:47

I know, right? It's so, I mean, under those conditions it's so extremely difficult because it's just chronic hyper vigilance. Mm-hmm. chronic, you know, grief and. I can only say, I guess, what worked for me, you know, personally, and that doesn't, and I, I am always so careful about that even when I, you know, even in the conversation of spirituality because, you know, I honor what anyone else's belief system is. And, I don't, Put my framework onto anyone else. So it's not,'cause I feel like sometimes that can be like, so much pressure. You've gotta, you've gotta see the silver lining or you've gotta like stay in a positive mindset and when you're in the trenches, like,

Kara 27:38

mm-hmm.

Erin 27:38

That is the hardest thing to do, is to find, I think hope and, and meaning. for me, I, I guess, you know, I just. Dove deep into all the spiritual teachings. Anything that I, could get my hands on I read or listened to that, helped me find a state of peace and, you know, knowing that I can't control everything.

Kara 28:03

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Erin 28:04

So, I mean, it doesn't answer your question about finding hope and connection. I mean, for me it was. Finding signs in, in my everyday life, you know?

Kara 28:15

Mm-hmm.

Erin 28:15

spiritual signs that led me to believe in something greater

Kara 28:20

mm-hmm. Than,

Erin 28:21

than us. that we are spiritual beings, that we're not alone.

Kara 28:25

Mm-hmm.

Erin 28:26

in this existence, I guess, I don't know if that answers your question. It's kind of

Kara 28:30

Well, I think what stands out to me is even what you had said before, or what we had talked about before about like how you said I did a lot of crazy things and how you were in this process of experimenting with what worked for you. And so when I asked this question right, you're like, well, what worked for me? And I think it's so important to actually acknowledge that, that anybody claiming that they have the guidebook, that they have the answer. Yeah. You're just gonna wanna not listen to them. No, just kidding. Yeah. you're gonna wanna say, well, that's great.

Erin 28:57

Mm-hmm.

Kara 28:57

But. Listen to your own wisdom.

Erin 29:02

Yeah.

Kara 29:02

And guidance and that's where I think what's beautiful about you being willing to share, yourself with this community is, I think when we see other moms

Erin 29:11

mm-hmm.

Kara 29:12

That we know have deep understanding of what we've experienced, what we are experiencing, and we see them, Finding hope, having things that worked. It's a very hopeful experience.

Erin 29:24

Mm-hmm.

Kara 29:25

Right. Not because, you have all the answers.

Erin 29:28

Mm-hmm.

Kara 29:28

But because you are on the journey and you have found some things that work. So that gives me hope that like, okay, so it's not always gonna be all of the fear and uncertainty like that. There is a way to navigate that. Mm-hmm. It's one of the ways is by talking about it like we are right now. Mm-hmm. And then finding the ways that we are uniquely, Able to access that. And that is different for everybody. And that's why I love this like, idea of experimenting and doing a lot of crazy things is because it's not a one size fits all. You're, you know, different person than I am. So therefore it's not gonna be like, there's not a recipe.

Erin 30:06

Yeah.

Kara 30:06

and if there was, I would've found it by now.

Erin 30:09

I know. I mean, I can be a little more specific in,

Kara 30:12

Yeah.

Erin 30:13

The route I took. I think one of the very first books I probably, read, oh, I don't know if I should back up to tell you the story about my brother, but, after my experiences, after my brother's passing, they had some crazy,

Kara 30:26

yeah, let's hear'em,

Erin 30:27

unexplainable experiences that kinda. Would lead me to the next step, to the next step, to find my own answers. Mm-hmm. and, and find meaning in all of this suffering, I guess. but so, when my brother passed, I told you he passed four years ago. He walked into the ER with what we thought was very treatable infection, and he died within a couple of hours. I said, and. A few. I, I mean, I was just in overwhelming state of grief and our new term, we're gonna call it complex grief.

Kara 30:59

Yes. I think that is actually a term, but I think we're, we're gonna claim it as our own.

Erin 31:03

Yes, exactly. so a few months after his passing, we, my family and I, traveled. 500 miles to Northern California to do his celebration of life. And at one point, one of the days we got into the rental car and the screen went black, and then it said, connecting to Jason's iPhone, Jason, my brother. And we didn't have his phone and all of his services had been disconnected at that point. And I mean, it literally shocked me out of my grief and I was trying to make sense of it, you know, what are the logical explanations? you know, we hadn't seen any. Program, phones that were still connected, programmed into the car, so that

Kara 31:46

mm-hmm.

Erin 31:47

Makes sense. Mm-hmm. And I thought, well, maybe we're driving down the street and somebody outside can tried to connect to our car. Their name is Jason, whatever. and then a few days later we traveled. A few hundred miles to Napa Valley and I was visiting places, I'd gone with him and the car did it again. the screen went blank and then connected to his iPhone. And then I heard, three songs played that were very, meaningful for our relationship.

Kara 32:15

Mm-hmm.

Erin 32:15

And then I was like, whoa, I don't, I mean, this seems deeper than that. Deeper than a coincidence. And then my husband and I traveled to the East coast and rented a car, which also connected to Jason's iPhone. So from that point, I was like, holy smokes. I, I just don't think I can ignore that. You know?

Kara 32:43

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Erin 32:44

And I think one of the very first books I read was, Laura Lynn Jackson's, the Light Between Us and Then Signs, I don't know if you've graduated.

Kara 32:53

Mm-hmm. I don't know either one of them, but yeah.

Erin 32:55

but the light between us is, it talks about connection and our connection that doesn't die when someone passes away. and she, the book about signs is, that you can ask the universe, spirit, whatever you want to call your, belief in something bigger than us connectedness. you can ask for specific signs. And so I started testing out the universe. And I would ask for really specific signs. which again, we're crazy. Mm-hmm. but they would, happen. One of the things,'cause she said, you know, make it specific, you know. And so I told my husband, I was like, okay, I want to see. I randomly pulled out, I said, I wanna see a beaver. We live in Southern California. I'm not gonna accept a YouTube video of a beaver, and I'm not gonna accept a stuffed animal, beaver. I love it. a month later we were seated in a restaurant that the whole restaurant was covered with license plates on the ceiling, and the license plate above us said, beaver.

Kara 33:57

Oh, that's funny. That's wild. And I

Erin 34:00

was like, yeah, you, I was just like, thank you.

Kara 34:02

Mm-hmm.

Erin 34:02

So, I know that all of this sounds crazy, but for me it was so deeply comforting

Kara 34:08

mm-hmm.

Erin 34:09

In a time that I. Had trouble finding hope or meaning or connectedness. And so it was kind of, it was a real learning process and I mean, my reading just continued, so

Kara 34:21

mm-hmm.

Erin 34:22

Mm-hmm. Lots of spiritual teachers in lots of different areas. helped me find meaning again.

Kara 34:29

Yeah. And I think you said it earlier, I'm trying to think, maybe it was, when we were talking prior to recording, but. What's coming up for me as you talk is the Access to peace.

Erin 34:42

Mm-hmm.

Kara 34:43

And again, recognizing people have different spiritual traditions. Mine is of a Christian tradition, a Christian faith. So for me, my higher power, I call him God.

Erin 34:53

Mm-hmm.

Kara 34:54

But I think what's universal in talking today, and I would think what a lot of people can acknowledge is like that there's something bigger than us.

Erin 35:03

Mm-hmm.

Kara 35:04

And so, however we describe that, knowing that there's something bigger than us, like so much bigger than us, like when we really stop and like, you know, even look at the clouds, like that is clearly, like all of this is a lot bigger than us. Yeah. That for me is when I'm able to really accept that part that I am held inside of something so much bigger.

Erin 35:29

Mm-hmm.

Kara 35:29

And more powerful. And for me, more loving and vast. That, that is where, okay, I can have peace here. It doesn't make sense here. It does not make sense. This pain and suffering does not make sense. but. I can still have peace.

Erin 35:43

Mm-hmm.

Kara 35:44

So, I don't know if you can talk a little bit about your experience with kind of accessing peace through the spiritual experiences that you're describing.

Erin 35:54

Yeah. Again, hard to put into words, I think, because I've had so many experiences through meditation, I think.

Kara 36:02

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Definitely going

Erin 36:04

within

Kara 36:05

mm-hmm.

Erin 36:05

Myself. I felt more love than I have ever felt in my entire life when I could go within and I guess, connect to my soul,

Kara 36:18

mm-hmm

Erin 36:19

to God, to spirit. So when I do it, I practice daily for sure. because my anxiety brain and will easily go into panic mode over all the things that I can't control with people's health and that kind of thing. And so for me, I start every day, I go within to clear all of that thinking that's happening, which mm-hmm. It kind of. Reminded me of what you were, we were talking about earlier, about like everything being so intellectual because I'd spent my lifetime being highly logical and I'm gonna. figure everything out and,

Kara 36:59

mm-hmm.

Erin 37:00

And control all of it with my powerful brain. Yeah. And then, and then I was like, oh, wow. I, mm-hmm. I have to learn a whole different way to be in this world. So it was actually clearing everything out of my mind to find, complete emptiness and spacing and connect. I call it like, I connect to my heart and

Kara 37:23

Yeah. Yeah.

Erin 37:24

That's when I feel peace because all the noise is clear and all the panic.

Kara 37:30

Yeah. Well I think it's that shift, that out of your mind and connected to your heart specifically.

Erin 37:35

Yeah.

Kara 37:36

And there is a really clever saying about that. Like the longest distance is like from your head to your heart view. Is this ringing a bell? There's a saying. I don't know it. I have, I feel like I'm notorious for like. Mostly knowing saints and then trying, like it does not work. You should not have tried that. It's close.

Erin 37:53

It's close. I can't speak. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kara 37:56

Not, not helpful. half of an analogy. yeah, and that's where I think that, and that, you know, I tend to attract, women exactly. That the women that have spent their lifetime being successful

Erin 38:09

mm-hmm.

Kara 38:09

Using their intellect to solve all of their problems.

Erin 38:12

Yeah.

Kara 38:13

And, and that is wonderful. There's something wrong with that and

Erin 38:17

Terrific.

Kara 38:17

And they get to it. Yeah. It's terrific. Right. Uhhuh and then. There's come a point where that is actually preventing them from getting to what they want. Yeah. Which is connection, presence, peace. And just like you said, it's a very different skill. And so to take a woman who's been successful her whole life

Erin 38:40

mm-hmm.

Kara 38:40

And that's where I think, you know, even back to what we were talking about earlier, it's like. Be being both an expert and a beginner all at the same time.

Erin 38:47

Oh gosh. Yeah.

Kara 38:48

And so I think it is a, and then it goes back to more vulnerability. To go back. To go like from really feeling competent and capable. Going from feeling competent and capable to feeling like you were a baby doing something for the first time and you are falling.

Erin 39:03

Yeah,

Kara 39:04

it is. And this is back where this is now we're back to the same place. That is why we need each other is because being held in that space, not being expected to do it alone, to have someone holding your hand through it, whether it's virtually, or even just knowing people are out there with you, you know, in terms of doing the work with you is so profoundly supportive. So yeah, I am gonna. Say it and say it and say it and say it until, moms are literally waiting outside my doorstep to say we want in the community. No, I'm joking. I know, but, but I'm also not, so,

Erin 39:36

so it's so important though. Your work is so important because I think that's Well why we're here on the planet. That's the gift of being here is connection.

Kara 39:48

Mm-hmm. I wholeheartedly agree.

Erin 39:50

An important thing. I'm

Kara 39:52

so on board.

Erin 39:52

I didn't, I didn't wanna forget though.'cause you keep saying, you know, experts and beginners. I mean, it's, it's so humbling that the more like, the more training reading I do or anything, the less I know mm-hmm. The less I know and it's just. So humbling.

Kara 40:12

It's really humbling. Particularly because I think our society values expertise and education and knowing. Mm-hmm. You know, like we're not very well praised as a society for being new.

Erin 40:28

Right? Yeah. Right.

Kara 40:28

For being a beginner or you know, like it's just not something that is valued. And I think when we already have, As caregivers, we already have a job. Mm-hmm. It's not very valued among our society. Right. Yeah. Where it's like no one, and actually I was joking with my husband, just chatting on the phone during my lunch break and we were just talking about, wow, like, can you even believe where we wouldn't be with all this, without all the support that we are receiving? Like it is just. We were just like, kind of in awe of it. Mm-hmm. And then I was, you know, telling him like, man, I just, I deserve an award for all that I've done to do this. Yeah. And I'm, I'm joking with him, but I'm also like, I was like, wait. He's like, well, I'll have Levi make you a trophy. I was like, no, I don't want a trophy. It's just one more piece of junk. Yeah. I wanna trip.

Erin 41:15

Yeah.

Kara 41:15

I want a bonus. Yeah. No. and I am still joking with him, but also. I think back to the whole point is that caregiving as a profession is not. You don't get the, oh wow, that's so cool.

Erin 41:28

Yeah.

Kara 41:28

You don't get the respect, you don't get the, kudos that I think we ultimately deserve. Like, you know, if you tell someone that you're a doctor or a lawyer or you know, something, that earns a lot of money. and that's what our society, really seems to revere. And so back to the, you know, being a beginner, I think it's hard to hold. That space for ourselves because it's so hard. It's so, so hard.

Erin 41:52

Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I mean, two words just kept popping into my brain as you were talking about that because it just takes such a huge amount of faith and trust to give up that intellectual control.

Kara 42:09

Yes.

Erin 42:10

And, and that's I think, been my challenge and, and how I still feel like such a beginner is because mm-hmm. Every single day I have to go back to square one, which is like, can I have faith and trust in something bigger than myself that's unexplainable? Mm-hmm. That I don't have proof of, that I don't have control over. and so it's very, feels very b beginner oriented because like. Oh, I'm, I don't know how far down the path I am, you know, still at the beginning of that path.

Kara 42:44

Yeah. So much so. But what you're reminding, so actually I had a conversation, I'm gonna make it anonymous. but I had a conversation with somebody who's, who's a child.

Erin 42:52

Mm-hmm.

Kara 42:53

about, it was about God and, and, you know, understanding different parts of, him and that was the thing. They were like, I don't know if I can trust him. Hmm. And as I was trying to explain, you know, just my own personal experience and saying, I understand, you know, that I have been there and it's really hard to make sense of so much of this. Mm-hmm. And hard to trust the goodness of a God that would allow some of this to happen.

Erin 43:21

Exactly.

Kara 43:21

And to acknowledge that and to like give voice to that. But I said, but here's the thing I know, is that just like what you explained really beautifully earlier when you. Do experience the profound experience of love in different ways. Like, so for me, I've experienced it. I've experienced just receiving God's love in such real and profound ways

Erin 43:44

mm-hmm.

Kara 43:45

That I'm like, okay, well that was real.

Erin 43:47

Yeah.

Kara 43:48

I, that experience of love, of being loved and the power of love, that's real.

Erin 43:53

Mm-hmm.

Kara 43:53

And so that's like the thing we grasp onto for like okay. That, processing our faith and trust every day knowing that we have these like center points to go on.

Erin 44:02

Mm-hmm.

Kara 44:03

but it is not easy.

Erin 44:04

It's not easy. It's constant work or practice. I guess that's why they call it practice.

Kara 44:10

Yeah, exactly right.

Erin 44:11

cause we'll never get there. It's like meditation practice. Everything's a practice.

Kara 44:18

It is very much so.

Erin 44:20

Yeah.

Kara 44:20

Yeah. I know. I kind of, I joke, I said, you know, I'd really love to there for there to be a finish line, you know, to kind of be like, okay, I'm done. I'm done growing. I know I've got it all figured out. But that is like, and I actually, and what you were saying earlier, like I think the more you learn, the more you recognize you have. Like the more you don't know,

Erin 44:38

the less

Kara 44:38

you know, the less you know. And so I think, likewise, and. I think it even gets worse. Worse over time. Yeah. Because as we keep learning. Yeah. okay, so let's see here. Let's start to wind it down. This is so much fun. I feel like we could geek out. I know. And keep going deeper and deeper. And, just as we kind of wind it down, is there anything just on your mind that, you wanna, put in the space of our listeners before we wrap up?

Erin 45:08

It's just repetitive, but I wish that I had found this community so long ago when I was starting my journey because, I just felt so isolated and I, I don't know, I'm not originally from Southern California, so. You know, I, I don't know if it's, you know, I'm, I'm from a small town, so I'm used to like what community was like there and when I came here and it was hard to figure out how do you fit in when your life is so far from perfect. Mm-hmm.

Kara 45:41

Mm-hmm. and to point, and it looks

Erin 45:45

like,

Kara 45:45

and you're like, treading the water and like doing all the things like how, how does that look like? And I guess I will close it out saying it looks. Like doing exactly what you had described in your own words, doing a lot of crazy things, trying things mm-hmm. To seeing what feels like a safe, connected community, to see what works for you and to, essentially hold onto that thread of hope that you don't have to stay so isolated and alone. And to kind of keep digging deep in your own words again.

Erin 46:17

Yeah. Mm-hmm. For sure. So yeah, the community is so lucky to have you and

Kara 46:23

well, thank you.

Erin 46:24

Be providing this, space for them, you know, that's for

Kara 46:28

sure. Thank you so very much. Well lovely to speak with you and I'm sure we'll speak again in the future knowing that we're now mutually acquainted to our friend. I know. And,

46:38

yeah.

Erin 46:38

Thank you

Kara 46:39

so

Erin 46:39

much. Yeah. It was so great to meet with you and I, I could just Yeah, talk forever about. All these, we go down so many rabbit holes though.

Kara 46:48

I know. I know, right? Yeah. Oh, definitely. Okay, well thank you and we'll see you on the next episode.