Learning to Live Inside the Life You Didn’t Choose with Joy Shaw

Transformation guide and stroke survivor Joy Shaw joins me to talk about healing through the lens of the hero’s journey and what it means to become the author of your own story. In this thoughtful conversation, we explore grief, witnessing pain, and the shift that happens when we stop trying to return to the life we expected and begin living the one we have.

read the full show notes here. 

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Connect with Kara, host of The Special Needs Mom Podcast:
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Website: https://www.kararyska.com/

Transcript

0:05

Hi, I am Kara, life coach, wife and mom to four incredible and unique children. It wasn't all that long ago that my son received a diagnosis that had my world come crashing down. I lacked the ability to see past the circumstances, which felt impossible and the dreams I once had for my life and family felt destroyed. Fast forward, past many years of surviving and not at all thriving, and you'll see a mom who trusts that she can handle anything that comes her way and has access to the power and confidence that once felt so lacking. I created the Special Needs Mom podcast to create connection and community with moms who find themselves feeling trapped and with no one who really understands. My intention is to spark the flare of possibility in your own life and rekindle your ability to dream. This isn't a podcast about your special needs child. This is a podcast about you. If you are a mom who feels anxious, alone or stuck, then you are in the right place. Welcome.

Speaker 1:13

Hello and welcome to the Special Needs Mom podcast. I'm excited to bring to you today a interview style episode, and our guest today is Joy Shaw. Now, it's been, I think, a week since I've recorded the episode, and so I cannot remember as much as the very specifics of each little part and piece. We talked about it, but what I, what I remember, and I'm impacted by is the essence of who Joy is. She is somebody who has stepped into the role of. Healer and I say that and knowing that the person that introduced me to Joy is somebody that she's worked with and, and so it's kind of fun, I guess we have a mutual client, joy and I could say, but really in knowing this individual as well, just the expansive work, the incredible work she's done both in her life and then I think in her relationship with her husband. And so the impact of being with Joy for me was kind of just getting to geek around in conversations around. What it looks like to unfold in relationship, particularly relationship with self, with Soul, with source Source meaning our higher power, and really was a wonderful conversation. So let me tell you a little bit more formally about Joy and then we'll get into the conversation. Joy is a stroke survivor, mother and guide who intimately understands the transformative power of healing through mind, body, and spirit. Nearly losing her life, awakened her to something deeper. An ineffable presence and ignited a lifelong devotion to intentional living and embodiment through that threshold experience. Joy didn't just reclaim her health, she discovered her purpose, and boy do I relate to that. Not necessarily reclaiming my health, but definitely through the journey with Levi's Health, discovering my own purpose. Back to Joy. With over 15 years of experience supporting families in both childbirth and parenting transitions and decades of walking her own path of healing, joy brings a rare blend of experiential wisdom, intuitive insight, and grounded presence to her work. Her journey through trauma, motherhood, and radical recovery shaped her ability to walk besides others, especially those standing at the edge of change, offering tools and integration embodiment. Creative expression. Lastly, joy believes that healing is not linear or systematized, and I wholeheartedly agree. And so that is a high level overview of who Joy is and how she shows up in this world, and I am delighted to introduce her to you. Enjoy the episode.

Kara 3:56

Okay, joy, we finally pressed record. Welcome to the Special Needs Mom podcast.

Joy 4:02

Well, thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

Kara 4:04

I say that because, joy and I have just been talking back and forth, back and forth and I'm like, oh my gosh, we actually have to record because kind of just geeking out on, getting to know each other and sharing our personal experiences, but also as it relates to the work that we have, you know, each devoted our lives to doing. Yeah. So. why don't we start with a little orientation to who you are, and especially like where you are in life right now. What does the season of life look like for you?

Joy 4:32

Yeah, well, I am an empty nester. And, that's been, a journey. and I think one of the things that the, the biggest sort of challenging season that I just came through, I'm 48 years old. My youngest daughter is in her second year of college. And what, what I was surprised by was like how intense the grief was. When they left. Mm-hmm. and as somebody who works in spaces where I'm really supporting people and honoring their grief, and really feeling their feelings and and validating their experience, I have to do that for myself as well. And I had never, this was new terrain. And I've worked through a lot of different kinds of grief and so it, it was pretty intense and I thought, you know, we talked, we spent so much time and I worked in childbirth for years. I was a, a doula and birth coach for 16 years. Helped many families through that. We do a lot culturally prepare mothers for the role of motherhood and we offer a lot of support and conversation and community around it. But like in the years where you're, you're moving out of that role and it's really shifting and your identity is changing. As a woman, we don't honor it, but it's not surprising, right? Because we don't, we do the same thing with death. It's like birth is a big deal and we announce it and we're excited about it. It's a miracle, but because death is so uncomfortable. Because, because it's so painful and uncomfortable, we like don't wanna look at it. We get very avoidant with it. And so we don't make it sacred and we don't, we don't put enough ceremony around it and really honor that part of our process, that transition. And I think it's the same when we die as like a mom and we're reborn into a different role with our children, we're not honoring it. We're just sort of dismissed. It's like, okay, well you've outlived your usefulness and your kids are now launched. Good for you. It's awesome. And then we just ignore that so

Kara 6:19

well, yeah. And then I wanna add the old, the, added complexity for many in this community that, They then don't have that experience. There is not a graduation. There's other InBetween. Mm-hmm. Right. So I totally am on board with a, you know, and that will be my experience with three of my children. And yet with Levi, actually, I thought to myself, I'm kind of lucky because all of my friends, I don't know if I should be admitting this out loud. All of my friends are gonna have to suffer through ending motherhood, but I don't have to sc grapple with that. It was a

Joy 6:54

significant grief. You won't, and it's, and I mean that's a beautiful thing. It's, I miss them so much, you know, and

Kara 7:01

well, yeah, and to be fair, I think I probably will have, to deal with a lot more than that. I think it's just my way of making myself feel better right now.

Joy 7:08

I think it's good. I think it's good. I like that reframe. It works.

Kara 7:12

Thank you. It's

Joy 7:12

working for me

Kara 7:13

now.

Joy 7:14

Yeah. And I do actually have a special needs child and and that was something we came to understand later. And, I'll limit how much I talk about this because she's 26 and I wanna honor her sovereignty and everything, but she has dealt with, multiple, also, she's been diagnosed with multiple autoimmune diseases and she is healing her body and healing a lot of those parts of her. But she was bedridden, debilitated, you know, so I am still. Supporting her in a lot of ways, taking care in her a lot of ways. She does need me the most of all three of my children, even though she's the oldest. And there's a lot of different ways that I've had to offer her more support to support her in her independent journey, and, and make a lot of adjustments and adapting in those ways. We've done a lot of healing as mother daughter. We've been, we've had a, a pretty challenging journey together. but yeah, there have been some adjustments for me in that, in that. I will always have to probably be a little more present in that role as well.

Kara 8:10

Yeah, yeah.

Joy 8:11

so I understand it a little bit.

Kara 8:13

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. so diving in a little bit more to your personal story, but also how that intersects with your professional, way of being in this world.

Joy 8:25

Yeah. Yeah.

Kara 8:28

Tell us a little bit about even just like the work you do, like if you were, you know, at a networking event like, oh, hi, joy. Nice to meet you. Yeah. What do you do?

Joy 8:35

Who's your elevator spiel? I call myself a holistic coach and personal transformation facilitator, you know, and also sometimes a medicine woman, and, and that it really is contextual, which language I use. but I'm I'm supporting people through the transformative process in a variety of different ways and, Understanding the transformative process and really the different phases and paths of it. And I do that through the lens of the hero's journey. Mm-hmm. So I think that is a really significant piece because, we shift out of, as we're healing, we shift out of like identifying as a victim. But there's a value to the victim's season because we have to validate what we've lived through, what we're going through, right? We have to grieve. The grief piece is something I come back to over and over again. And without adequate amounts of grieving and feeling, we can't heal it to get to the point where we can view it through a different lens and we can become from a place of being empowered. And so a lot of the work that I do is, you know, it's not what happens so much as the story you tell about what's happening that it. That impacts the way you experience your reality. And so how can we come to understand, like I say this often, you can't become the author of your own story until you're aware of the story you're living and telling yourself every day and inhabiting. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then once you become aware of that and the narratives and the stories and all the parts of it, and. Orient yourself within a place of really validating all of that, then you can move to a place of empowerment and like, let's tell a heroic story, right? Let's overcome, let's see what we can do with all of these ingredients that we have here. What, what can we make? What's the recipe that we can make with this? and so it is, I really am supporting people and inspiring them to become the hero of their own story. And often those stories have a lot of really challenging ingredients as my story had a lot of really challenging ingredients.

Kara 10:31

Well, on the inside I'm like clapping and screaming'cause I'm like, oh my gosh. I think that you've articulated, yeah. Something. So, actually, so important, I really wanna highlight it. one, just that shift that one makes from moving from the victim of the experience of the, of their life and story to that empowered, whatever role, person relationship, however one describes it. But the part that I really wanna highlight that what you've shared is without invalidating. The victim experience actually honoring that healing, that grieving that.'cause I think that that's where. I think, a lot of us just think, okay, we just gotta toughen up. We gotta like, just look, just have a better attitude. You know? Add some gratitude in there. Yeah.

Joy 11:18

Yeah. Just

Kara 11:18

to like, for safe assurance and, and

Joy 11:21

we just minimize it. We end up minimizing the experience. Also dealing with other people's response and reaction to your experience is a big part of that.

Kara 11:30

Huge. Yeah.

Joy 11:31

Yeah. And like, we don't wanna make them uncomfortable, right? So we're not gonna let them know how hard it is for us if we don't wanna be viewed like we're, you know, a mess or defeated. And so we're just gonna sort of be like, no, it's fine. It's fine. I'm fine. Everything's good. Yeah. And a lot of what I do really, I think if I was gonna add another piece to how I describe what my role is I'm a witness. I get to be a loving witness because we talked earlier about like you have a community coaching program and how we heal in community a. Part of my own healing journey was realizing how much I had done alone, which then made me healthy enough to attract the right community and connect. And I have, like all of the women I am close friends with are all dynamic coaches and leaders and authors who have been doing so much work within themselves. And then we get to witness each other. But also I get to be like I, even the couple who connected me with you and when I was working with him intensely, a lot of what I was doing was just. Just validating so much of what they've been through and being like, oh my goodness. Like what that must have been like and this has been your reality. And then just reflecting it back so that they can see themselves through my eyes. As somebody who's really honoring what it is that they're doing, and then it helps them see themselves in that way when they've just been coping and minimizing and surviving for so long, and it lands like, whoa. You're right. It's just been, oh my goodness, it has been. And for the first time ever I can say that I didn't know if I was gonna survive this process, but it was never even an option for me not to because this child needed so much from me.

Kara 13:09

Mm-hmm.

Joy 13:10

But I'm so tired. But I'm so tired. And I'm like, yeah, of course you are. This is why.

Kara 13:16

Yeah.

Joy 13:16

And you get to feel that way. And sometimes people just need to be given permission. To be human.

Kara 13:21

Well, but, but it's all yes. Permission. But I think also there is something that is so sacred about having your pain witnessed.

Joy 13:28

Yeah. Yeah.

Kara 13:28

And that, that itself is just so healing. And I think that is where, okay. So wanna fast forward to like something I was gonna talk about later in the conversation. Yeah. But it, it, it has to do with, with grief and, you know, you and I were talking a little bit more about grief prior to recording. Yeah. We should have been recording, but we weren't. I know. but. I talk about grief a lot on the podcast. out in the world when I talk about grief, I have people say, you know, just to be, clear moms that have children who have survived cancer and say, and then I talk about grief, and they're like, oh, I don't have any of that and I don't correct them. Of course, right. But I think, but I think to myself, oh, I think they don't understand what grief is because I'm pretty sure yes. I, I would say it would be unlikely for someone to have their child go through cancer without experiencing, grief loss of some kind. Yeah. Yeah. And so this is a long lead up to the question of why do you think we as a community resist grief so immensely?

Joy 14:31

I think, well, there's a couple reasons why I think we're not very good at being uncomfortable. And we have. Decided that there are good feeling states and bad feeling states, and we have a preference for things that feel good. Mm-hmm. We have an aversion for things that feel bad. Right. And so because we've categorized certain things, and Brene Brown talks a lot about this, which is really great, and she talks about how vulnerability is a birthplace of connection. But also like, because we'd prefer to feel happy and joy and excited and everything, and we don't wanna feel sad and anger and everything, we push those things away. But in doing so, we actually block ourselves from being able to access these other. States and we don't have, most of us didn't have a model like we grew up in environments where we had our experience being minimized all the time. Mm-hmm. Or, and I hate to say this, but really a lot of this comes down to mothers who don't know how to hold space for their own experience and then they cannot allow their children to be uncomfortable. I mean, it's even works with like disciplining your child or creating boundaries and saying no, and then them throwing a. Fit and being so upset that like, because I don't like it when they're upset and it feels bad to me whether they feel bad and I don't know how to hold space for my own discomfort, I will then. Not maintain this consistent boundary with the child. And I think this isn't even an option for parents of special needs children because your kids are going through things that are completely unavoidable. And so you end up being pushed into having to explore those places within yourself as a parent who's parenting this child because there's no getting away from it. It's like when I was laying in critical care after my, I had a stroke from a brain aneurysm 16 years ago that, and I had a near death. Experience. And I spent a week just kind of between life and death and critical care. I could not get away from my pain. It was unavoidable. Mm-hmm. And even the morphine that they would give me would only last a brief period of time. And then I'd be vomiting from pain again. And it was just, it was unbearable and I wanted to just die to get away from it, but I couldn't,'cause I had to fight to stay alive. And so I had to learn how to be in a state that was intolerable. And it was so valuable for me. But I've also learned in my own healing journey that as I started, you know, taking alcohol out and reintroducing different ways of being or, or not allowing myself to date, because I definitely had some like love addiction stuff for a while that I wasn't good at being uncomfortable and, and I say. I've actually talked about this on other podcasts before where it's like there is a medicine in learning how to stay in these spaces because we ultimately get to a deeper, more intimate relationship with ourselves and we get so much information about what we would and wouldn't do. And I think. Ultimately, grief is an important part of Empowered Living because it helps us to be like, well, if I would like to minimize the amount of grief that I'm gonna have to experience in life, and so I'm gonna make choices that are more in alignment with who I wanna be, because sometimes grief I'm experiencing is a consequence of a choice that I made, and sometimes the grief I'm experiencing is completely unavoidable and I have to be capable of both. Mm-hmm. But I think grief is the key to making life have meaning and being sacred, and we're afraid to care as much as we do about things. And grief means things matter.

Kara 18:01

Yeah. And I think I'm gonna add the complexity of afraid to care that much and to love that much.

Joy 18:10

Mm-hmm.

Kara 18:11

And afraid of. Being with the complexity of potentially conflicting emotions like parents experiencing the profound love for their child. Mm-hmm. Alongside profound resentment. Hate, I would even say this was not what I envisioned for my motherhood experience. This was not, yeah, yeah. The experience of their dreams being taken from them by their child, even though they intellectually completely understand which child didn't do anything on purpose. Yeah. But they have these complex feelings. We, these complex feeling feelings.

Joy 18:46

Conflicted space for moms of special needs children too. Yeah. Yeah. And the fact that. I think life is inherently paradoxical and a lot of spiritual maturity is our growing our capacity to be able to hold paradox, right. To be able mm-hmm. The both end. Mm-hmm. Where it's like, I can feel this and I can feel this, and this doesn't diminish. The other, I had to grieve the father I wish I could have had, right? The father who's alive, but not in my life anymore. I had to grieve the, the partnership I wish I would've had at this point in my life. I didn't anticipate being 48 years old and a single parent still without a partner and a life that I'm building with somebody else. In order for me to be ready to rebirth and envision a new, a new idea about how I wanted to do life, that does not involve a partner. Right.'cause I can't guarantee that that's gonna happen at some point that I had to first grieve what I wish I could have had and then release it.

Kara 19:43

Mm-hmm.

Joy 19:44

The other reason that we struggle to grieve is we feel like if we let ourselves grieve that we're gonna get to the other side of the thing, and then we're gonna let it go and we tell ourselves that there's something wrong with that. No, no, no, no. I have to hold onto this because it's important for me to hold onto it.'cause that's what makes it matter.

Kara 20:03

oh my gosh. So, so good. What you're saying. And I wanna introduce a concept that I've been talking about, in some other places, but I explain parts of grief as, the experience of having, A room. I don't know why, but it's kinda like a train station. Like a hub. Yeah. Where things happening. Life is, and you've always expected, and you arrive there expecting it to go a certain way and for whatever reason, you have been kicked out of that space, of that room that you want to be in. And now you are in a completely new. And it's completely empty. You're completely unfamiliar. Nobody is there with you. And that I think is the experience I think of becoming a special needs mom. Yeah. You lose your entire knowing, community. And then so just, but I wanna loop it back to what you're saying. What I heard you say is essentially. It's that holding on to that old life, trying to get back to the old room is the thing that prevents us from looking at the room that we're in and in your life, embracing it and inhabiting it and saying, how can I inhabit this in a way that actually works with me? Exactly. From a place of like integrity, like not like, it's, you can't do the work when you're trying to get back to the old place at the same time, because inherently that makes it impossible. To truly be where you're at. So I just love the way that you explained all that.

Joy 21:26

Yeah, and I love that train station analogy too. I think that's great. That's a good way to put it. And it is. It's like I, I cannot allow myself to fully inhabit this space or this life that I didn't want, that I didn't choose. Mm-hmm. And a lot of healing, and what I work with my clients through is the tools of like radical self-responsibility. Is then what shifts us towards empowerment and then learning how to work with the ingredients that are there, right? If I open up the refrigerator and I'm like, what do I wanna make for dinner? Well, what do I have in the cabinets, in the refrigerator that I can make with these ingredients? Well, sometimes you, you don't really have a whole lot of ingredients that you really wanna work with, and I don't wanna eat anything that I've got, but I've gotta figure out how to do that. And then a lot of the healing journey is coming to acknowledge that these are the ingredients we have, we've gotta figure out how to make something with them. And then you get to a point where you actually can start to acquire new ingredients.

Kara 22:23

Mm-hmm.

Joy 22:24

Develop new ingredients so that you have more recipes that you can make. But first you have to accept that this is all that you've got and this is what you have. And you may have preferred something else. Your palate may be wanting something else, but that's not what's there. I'm like

Kara 22:40

picturing a fridge with like mayonnaise and mustard.

Joy 22:43

Yeah.

Kara 22:44

And like couple pickles in the back there.

Joy 22:46

Right. And you're like, I have no bread, I have no cheese.

Kara 22:50

I can come up

Joy 22:50

with

Kara 22:51

something.

Joy 22:52

Yeah. I tell people, you know, some of us have more spicy or flavorful ingredients. We've got like all the condiments. But we're lacking like the bread or we're lacking the, the cohesive pieces. And so that's a lot of healing. And finding coaches and support people is like, help me figure that out. And most of the time I will say this, and this is why, you talked, you and I talked about, believing a creator, right, or a higher power or having a spiritual connection of some sort. That if I trust that there is a bigger plan and a bigger picture to whatever it is that is going on, then I'm gonna believe that there's a way for me to move forward and that something good and beautiful is gonna come from this. And that's a really, that's a really essential thing for me in my life, is that trust and enables me to surrender and to be willing to work with what is there.

Kara 23:46

Mm-hmm.

Joy 23:48

And I have to believe that that creator is loving and ultimately, like I love my children and I made them out of love. And so I can look at that relationship and then I can look up at the creator and be like, surely this is exactly the same, but so much more.

Kara 24:05

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And just because we don't understand something or don't agree with something mm-hmm. Doesn't mean that. It's not what it is. Right. So it's like, I don't understand. Can't tell you understand? Yeah. Why I don't understand.

Joy 24:17

Our kids don't usually understand why we're valuing the things that we do. Right. They, and so much they don't. Like you won't get this till you're older. You just

Kara 24:25

won't, my daughter does not understand why I say no to her watching tv, and, and eating candy all day. And nor is she interested in understanding?

Joy 24:33

No.

Kara 24:34

No. Okay. But one day

Joy 24:35

she'll, thank you.

Kara 24:38

We'll see. No, she, yeah. Okay, now I wanna rewind. So we're, I like it. We're jumping all around. Mm-hmm. I wanna rewind to something you said a little bit ago because, well, I wanna kind of expand on it and I also wanna make sure nobody misses it because I'm like, this is it. You said what you encounter is essentially mothers who can't hold space for their own discomfort.

Joy 24:59

Yeah.

Kara 24:59

and you highlighted a couple things, but one thing you highlighted is essentially. What special needs mothers are called for in this space. And I, I talk about this in different spaces that Yeah, I do think that actually one of the gifts I think of being a special needs mom is the extreme things I've had to hold. And so, and I think back to some specific moments from very, very, very scary moments. And I think about how hard that was. And after those moments, I remember thinking. I could do anything'cause I just looked through that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so, so kind of using it as a Yeah. Way of actually acknowledging the profound ability that I have now because I had to. Mm-hmm. Yeah. and yet, okay, so there's that, right? And so I'm like, on one hand I'm like, yes, I can hold immense discomfort. I also find, I'd love your take on this or your insight. I also find. That there's like a half life to it. But although yes, I've lived through that and I can now remember it, I don't always feel like I have that depth and tolerance.

Joy 26:09

Yeah,

Kara 26:09

I feel like I have to relearn it over and over again. So let's actually stop there. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Joy 26:16

You know, it's interesting, I love that question because it reminds me of why I am a climber. so I started climbing about four years ago. I was in Joshua Tree with a friend, a client of mine, and just discovered that I felt so happy. Scrambling up these rocks and I thought maybe this is a thing for me. And so I came back to Nashville and, went to the gym and I didn't know what I was doing, but I, I knew that while I was climbing, I had never felt more present.

Kara 26:44

Mm-hmm.

Joy 26:45

You know, I just felt so present and I know I have a very active mind. And generally we've gone through trauma. Our brain becomes hypervigilant and hyperactive to be fixing things all the time. And so you have to learn how to inhabit that kind of psyche and brain and nervous system. And so once I came to understand myself, and this really comes from a lot of self exploration, self knowledge, which I think is very important in order for us to know what we need, just like you get to know your kids to know uniquely what they need.

Kara 27:13

Mm-hmm.

Joy 27:14

I was like, I think there's a value in this thing for me. And when I first started climbing, I was a beginner. I was not very good at it. My fingers were not strong, you know? Now it's like, oh look, I can like, yeah. I could do like four chin up. I could never do one in my entire life just from climbing, just from bouldering. I'm not lifting weights or anything. Mm-hmm. I love doing it, but I also know that as I climb it has helped reinforce my ability to, be resilient, to be patient with a process because I love doing this thing, but. For a long time I was not good at it, and I knew I had to stay consistent and keep building that muscle and coming back over and over again. I think we have extreme, we, this is a thing I work with a lot of my entrepreneur clients on and a lot of creatives. We are creatures of extremes, you know? Mm-hmm. And we have like some big muscles in that area, but maybe we haven't worked like our triceps, right? Like our muscles of moderation. And in order for us to really consistently have the ability to withstand challenging things for prolonged periods of time, we need to not just have the big, like oomph. I can lift this one heavy thing this one time, but I also have to be able to do reps consistently and be able to show up consistently. And so when you've been through trauma, you tend to have these. The capacity for extremes and challenges, but your muscles of moderation are not very strong. And so how do I consciously go into my life recognizing like, what can I do? Where can I find practices that I can build my strength in that way? So then it helps me translate it consistently through the entirety of who it is that I am. And that took time for me to understand and I, and I was like, didn't really wanna do it because again, it was uncomfortable because it meant I was gonna have to be patient with a process. Mm-hmm. And I was gonna have to sit in the discomfort before I got to be good at it, before it was easy.

Kara 29:09

Mm. Mm-hmm. And that is not easy.

Joy 29:13

And that is not easy. And the only way I have learned to do that well is I've had to figure out how to love. My discomfort, I've had to figure out how to find value in the process and not judge it as needing it to be good or bad. And that's really required me, and this is a big part of what I teach, to shift from being objective based, right? Fear based. We are creating from fear and survival, and we have an objective and it needs to fit that objective, right? Like as a mom of a special needs child, you had an objective, I'm gonna become a mom, and I have this idea for what my life is gonna look like, and it's gonna be all of these things. And then you get handed a curve ball. That happens in so many different ways in our lives, but this is specifically what you ladies have really been challenged with. So then I have to figure out how to love this thing that is not what I wanted and all the parts of it. And the only way I can do that is if I'm not looking at like, okay. 30 years from now, I'm still gonna be taking care of this child. And that's like what my life is like. And if I bring that awareness into this moment, I'm gonna feel deflated, exhausted, defeated, and I won't be able to be present with what exists right now. So I put most of my practice. My life into supporting my muscles and being able to just anchor myself in the present.

Kara 30:35

Mm-hmm.

Joy 30:35

And shepherd my thoughts back to the present and be really engaged with the present and just find value in the process and let go of the outcome. Let go of the objective. Trust that that is in a bigger hands than mind. And that I have to just come back to being present with the process. Can I enjoy a climbing day, even when I fall off the wall five different times and I can't make it up and I'm not very good. And I feel like, you know, I just twisted my ankle, you know? Mm-hmm. But I learned so much. I just actually healing from a sprained ankle and I learned so much from those seven, eight weeks of healing and, and accomplished a lot of different things. And so I'm engaged with the process, it's put me back in my progress as a climber, right? Mm-hmm. But if I'm valuing the process over the objective, if I'm valuing my, the, just really being engaged with my experience and the quality of my experience in the present moment, like how can I make my present moment experience as engaging and as beautiful and rewarding as possible, even if it is, other than I would've preferred that it would be.

Kara 31:41

Yes. So I, I hear when, I hear a lot of acceptance in there, but the other thing I hear is a way of being that you've described as a way of being of sufficiency. Yeah. And like really returning to the present moment. And when we do that, many of us can recognize in this present moment we are sufficient, we have sufficiency And there's a lot of value to that, but I wanna also kind of step back to what we, for the mom that has heard. Okay. So, you know, yeah. I'm a mom who can't hold space for my own discomfort. That's me. That's, I'm the one yelling at my kid to be quiet because I am so dysregulated. and I can't be with that. so for the mom who's thinking, well, shit, what do I do now? and is now thinking I have to go fix that part of myself and therefore is stepping into, relating to themselves as deficient and needing to be fixed. So I wanted to see if you could speak to that.

Joy 32:45

Yeah, I this is where, the kind of relationship where we have with ourselves really matters. And all of healing is ultimately healing the wounded inner child. All of the journey of like personal development and of evolution is going back and healing the wounds of. The child that within us that didn't get what it needed. And even if you didn't have a, a big T trauma childhood, right? There are, most of us didn't have an adequate model who knew how to show up for us exactly the way that we needed, and they probably didn't have one before them. I have found this after two decades of working in healing. All of healing comes down to like, what issues did you get from your childhood? Mm-hmm. And how are those being triggered in your day-to-day life, whether it's through your relationship or whatever's going on. And so if there is a mother who's feeling this way, which is probably, many moms are feeling this way, it's not something most of us naturally have. That is where. We could become aware of how we relate to that part of ourselves. I spoke about this recently too, but when I realized I was, I was repeatedly in abusive relationships with men. and I had my own set of issues. So I'm not gonna play the victim card, but. I allowed them to speak to me and treat me in those different ways because I ultimately was already relating to myself that way. Mm-hmm. And so the self-love piece, it's talked about a lot and it seems so like easy. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. Is learning how to love myself. Mm-hmm. But it's been the most important thing I've ever done, and I'm able to love that part of myself more easily when I can relate to that little girl inside of me. Like if I look in the mirror and I see a grown ass woman who's just like acting ridiculous and immature and losing her temper, or make a decisions that I don't feel good about as an adult, I'm going to be hard on her. I've gotta give her some hard, harsh truth. She's already had enough of that. But if I can look at myself and see the little girl inside of me, or see the younger version of me or the, the emotionally mature part of me that didn't get what it needed, that hasn't grown in those ways, I can hold loving space for her. I can give her grace and I can be like, what do you need? What do you need from me right now? Typically in a moment that we are uncomfortable. And we are losing our temper, or we are sad, or we are depressed or we are struggling, it's because there's a part of us that's asking to have its needs met that we've ignored for so long, or that we have avoided, or that we have minimized for so long and then, and, and then it's showing up other places. Mm-hmm. Right? Like I'm always taking care of everybody else and nobody's taking care of me. Nobody cares what I need. Nobody's been paying attention. And I have this identity that is like I'm giving, I'm loving, I'm sacrificial and everything, but we're more performative most of the time, and we're doing it out of obligation. It comes from an authentic place when that's also how we relate to ourselves.

Kara 35:50

Mm-hmm.

Joy 35:51

And the thing that I think makes us the most uncomfortable is saying no. Saying no, and dealing with how that makes other people feel.

Kara 36:00

And I think I was just, I was in a coaching call earlier this morning with somebody that is kind of more in the business setting, but ultimately was about exactly that, that what we don't realize is that we spend so much time and energy trying to manage other people's emotions. We don't, and we're not conscious of this, right. So saying no is often, outside of our own comfort zones mm-hmm. Because of what we predict. That know may inspire in feeling as of other people. Mm-hmm. And so there's such profound gifts in letting others be responsible for themselves and their own feelings.

Joy 36:33

Oh, yeah.

Kara 36:33

and it'll, it's just so hard. It's so much. It's one of those things where it's hard, it's a concept that's easy to understand, but I think really hard to do. Yeah. But I think it leads back to, to what you were just speaking about is acknowledging. Why it's hard for us to do, acknowledging why it's so scary to let somebody else down or to mm-hmm. Think that you're going to let somebody else down. And rather than meeting yourself there with condemnation or critique or, just even harshness actually coming. And meeting their incomp compassion and be like, oh, mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. This is understandable. Yeah. And oftentimes I think we think that that's going to lead us to complacency or to resignation of kind of staying where we don't wanna be ultimately.

Joy 37:16

Mm-hmm.

Kara 37:16

But it does the opposite, and I'm sure you see this over and over again. Yeah. in spaces that you work that like, that love and softness and compassion actually opens up and is expansive. And it's like the invitation to step more into, authenticity for ourselves and of course allowing the same for others.

Joy 37:35

Yeah. We invite other people to meet us there when we're showing up in this authentic way. and I think, so much of this. Rewiring around codependency and people pleasing and wanting to put other people first and feeling like we're meeting everybody else's needs. For me, one of the big sort of aha moments that I had, that was a key growth moment for me, was realizing how selfish I actually was in that. Mm-hmm. Because if I really got honest with myself, which I had to do to heal, I would say to myself that like. I need my environment to be under control, and I need to make sure that everybody's good in my environment so I can feel good, so that I can feel calm, so that I can feel safe. I'm cleaning up all the time and making sure everything,'cause that's how I want it to be, and that's when my nervous system feels safest and calmest. I'm anticipating your needs and making sure I take care of this for you and that you don't bitch at me and complain or whatever, so that I can feel relaxed, so that I can feel safe, that I'm ultimately caretaking my environment and manipulating managing all the parts of it. So that I can feel safe, so that I can feel calm, so that I can feel good. And when I could see that it wasn't necessarily because I was loving and caring and compassionate and trying to help everybody else, even though those parts of me were there, both end. Both were there.

Kara 38:55

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joy 38:56

That I was not operating from that most of the time. And then in addition to that, how do I know? I know what everybody else needs. Do I really think that I know what's best for everybody else and that I think that things should be easy for everybody else and, and ultimately I'm arguing for their limitations and I'm not inviting them into their growth. If I'm gonna take care of everything, I get to be the resilient, capable one, which is great. I feel good about that, and the ego really likes. Feeling that way about itself, right? And our sense of identity is wrapped up in this, which is why it gets to be so tricky.'cause the mind is really attached to its identity and its way of identifying like, I am this and I am that, and I am this. And I want people to think this about me. And so anytime that we start to make a change there, it actually starts to sort of attack that way that we identify. And the brain does not like it.

Kara 39:54

Yeah. It almost reminds me back to this like the train station room kind of thing. Yeah. Where it's like there's this part of us that we're like, this is who I am. Mm-hmm. This is how I show up in the world. This is what I do professionally. This is what I, how I am as a mom. Yeah. And wife and friend, et cetera. And. It's like the idea of letting go of that is very uncomfortable. And like you, you're all the parts of us are gonna be like, no, no, no. But it's like we have to let go of some of those parts and that ultimately I think is, it starts with acceptance, but also responsibility. Owning it, being like, this is how I've related to myself and I am the one who can change that if I want to. but it's like jumping over to this new, Unfamiliar land. Yeah. Which is sometimes in, in many, in most ways, very uncomfortable.

Joy 40:41

And we talked about this before we started recording that victim. Narrative, right? And then shifting into the heroic story and, and that what often is a block to that is like, no, it's not fair. This see happened to me that I didn't want, that I didn't ask for what? I had a stroke from a brain aneurysm when I had a dad that was abusive. It's like none of those things are fair. None of those things are what I would've wanted. Why do I have to deal with this? Why do I have to eat a specific way so that I don't have to be medicated for the rest of my life? When this person can go eat at McDonald's and it doesn't do anything to them, right? It's not fair. And so I was just this, I was a victim. And it felt like I, if I was gonna say it was okay that those things had happened to me. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Then I would be invalidating my experience. But part of the reason I had a hard time getting out of that victim narrative is because I wasn't getting that validation from anybody else or from anywhere else in my life. And I, if I could go back to that, then I could get some kind of attention. Some kind of sympathy. Mm-hmm. Some kind of, you know, recognition for what I had been through. I just celebrated, well, I didn't celebrate it. My 16 year stroke anniversary came and went on January 17th and

Kara 41:57

mm-hmm.

Joy 41:58

I forgot about it for the first time ever. And you know, this thing that I never thought I'd go a day without thinking about, and then like a day or two later I remembered Oh yeah. Huh. I don't identify as with it anymore. It's no longer an important part of how I identify. I've evolved past it.

Kara 42:21

Mm-hmm.

Joy 42:22

And I think if we embrace the fact that we're meant to be evolutionary beings and creatures, and that we're supposed to be growing and evolving all the time, then we allow ourselves to let go of those old ways of being, those habits and those patterns, you know, and I, I even will talk about Jesus dying on the cross sometimes, even though I'm not coming from a Protestant or Christian background anymore. Because I just think it's a beautiful model of the dying to the self or the dying to the habits and the patterns of the old way of being in order to be born into something new, you know? And that we can come back to life in this new way. Mm-hmm. Free of all of those other parts of us, but it's painful. And it's, and it's unknown and it's challenging.

Kara 43:06

Mm-hmm. Yeah. what came into my mind is knowing that you are a doula. Mm-hmm. And kind of the birth process and thinking about that. Yeah. Like thinking of it is painful. It sure is. It's

Joy 43:15

painful, but

Kara 43:16

new life

Joy 43:16

is waiting on the other side.

Kara 43:17

Yeah. I did natural childbirth for my first three children. Wow. And then I was like, you know what, the fourth one, I was like, I'm too old for this shit.

Joy 43:27

So well,

Kara 43:28

getting an epidural,

Joy 43:29

hearing that, because the part of that that I think is really beautiful and I was, I was really big advocate for natural childbirth when I first started working as a doula. I kind of was like, this is the best way to do it. Then I found that like we're not all made to have that same experience. The goal then is to come from a place of being empowered and making choices that feel like they're your choices that you wanna make, that you're not a victim of the process.

Kara 43:51

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Joy 43:52

But when we are basically saying to the birth process like, this pain is too much for me. I don't wanna feel it. Ultimately the baby is still experiencing the birth process, right? Every contraction is like a squeeze or a hug to force the baby to come down into this pelvic space. And your body and the baby are actually kind of partnering together when you get these signals from your body, you know, to like rock or move or all those types of things. And so I think part of the reason we struggle women in a modern society, and I'm working on a book, around this. Just where it's like women have given their power away and part of our medicalized childbirth, the design of it tends to take it away from them. Mm-hmm. We don't make empowered choices there. Mm-hmm. In that space, we are victims of a system and things are outside of our control. We don't know what's going on. It's like come into that space empowered. Educated, prepared to make decisions as you go that are gonna be the best decisions for you and your process, and hopefully that's natural, but it doesn't mean that it's not great if you don't go natural. But if you don't, there's usually a reason why the better route for you is to go this way. And don't abandon yourself in the process and don't abandon the baby and the thing that is happening, be engaged with the process that is happening, you know, and find value in that process, whatever it looks like. And after years of working in that space, I went from being like, oh, I wanna give women empowering natural births to, I would. To help women become empowered through their birth experience.

Kara 45:25

Mm-hmm.

Joy 45:25

And that you're gonna have the exact experience, you need to challenge you to help give you the initial growth tools that you need to show up for this unique being that's coming to you, this child. And it's gonna need very specific things and it's training ground in one way, shape, or form. And let's view it that way.

Kara 45:44

Mm-hmm. I love

Joy 45:46

that.

Kara 45:46

You know, it makes me nostalgic for that season of time. Right? That was so long ago. yeah. In such a sacred time. Yeah. Okay. So. I'm laughing in my head. I'm like, oh, wow. Okay. So we've covered so many different areas we've gone to and fro and Yes. Back again. And I loved it. And also, we need to wrap up. so let's see. Where do we wanna land? I guess I just wanna, you know, Check in with you in terms of kind of where we are landing in this conversation. Yeah. What you would basically, leave, with the listeners of this podcast, based on our conversation today.

Joy 46:21

Well, I will say that I would love it if they have more questions and they would like some support in this space for people to reach out, you know, to reach out through my, website or my social media platform or whatever. I am actually in the process of just like you do group coaching, creating more environments actually helped get a men's group started here for a lot of, husbands that I work with and the men that I coach to give them a place to connect.'cause men tend. Have a hard time finding community and now I'm working on one for women. and creating just more, virtual platforms and environments and community to be able to offer support mm-hmm. Through this process. Because whether or not you're the parent of a special needs child or somebody going through marriage issues, or somebody who like has severe trauma or a combat veteran, which I work with as well, it, it really like. The issues are always the same. Mm-hmm. And the things that we're all dealing with are always the same. It's just we have different contexts and things that are pushing us into these spaces. I have a couple I worked with who, Nashville had a really terrible tornado, hit us some years back, and this couple lost their house. The tornado, like they had this, Awful frightening moment where they were hiding in the bathroom and everything was almost taken away from them. Yes. And they ended up going on two of the most difficult years of their life after that where all of their issues came up and they were end up medicated in therapy and everything. But then they found me and they were referred to me and we started doing some deep intensive work together. They will say to you today. That was the single best thing that could have ever happened to them because it forced them to finally do the what. And now like they realigned their business and their work and their relationship and everything is in this beautiful place that it just keeps growing and expanding because they took the invitation that this contrasting experience provided with them. And that contrast is just a clarifier, you know? Mm-hmm. And resistance helps us. Create definition, like just you go to the gym, you gotta lift weights to create definition, right? It's like, how do I wanna meet this moment? How I want to meet this contrasting experience is going to impact how it changes me and whether I can use it to become the hero of my own story. And so if anybody wants that kind of support or wants resources, and I can connect them with other people, that would be supportive. And I'm traveling more. So I will be coming out to California again this spring, and I'm in a season where I'm taking what I do and spending time in beautiful places'cause that fills my soul and my vessel so I can continue to show up and serve right. I support, love myself, take amazing care of myself so that I could show up fully present. To do that for other people. And I'm doing that for me, being out in nature and getting to have expansive experiences, a part of that. So, you know, I'm going to different communities if you wanna bring me to your community to speak and support and offer workshops and retreats, like that's where I am. And that's the season of life that I'm in. That's the vision that I've birthed for this next chapter that I'm excited about. and I'm, and I love getting to meet new people and getting to. See how my story can somehow support them with their own.

Kara 49:37

Mm-hmm. Amazing. And all of your contact information will be on the show notes of this episode. Yes. So people will have resource or access to that. I wanna say, thank you so much for sharing yourself, with our community today and for being who you are in this world and for the, energetic and, just, amazing conversation today. And we'll look forward to it being acquainted in the future. we'll see you on the next episode.