EP:351 | Talking Deer with an Old School Biologist

On this show we’re joined by Chris Cook who was a 30 year employee with the State of Alabama focused on managing white-tailed deer. Chris specialized in helping clubs and landowners improve their deer herds and hunting experiences. He was responsible for areas that already had a high population when he started and also areas with hardly any deer. We ask a lot of questions and hear some great info and stories. What do you think was the heaviest deer he saw weighed? How far do you think a trapped and relocated buck would travel after he was released? If you enjoy talking deer you’ll enjoy this one.

 Listen, Learn and Enjoy.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I am Jeff Foxworthy, and welcome to Gamekeeper Podcast. If you want to learn more about farming for wildlife and habitat management, then buddy are in the right place. Join the Gamekeeper crew direct from Mofty Young Land and Habitat Studios. They discussed the latest wildlife and habitat management practices. News, and of course, honey. There's no telling what you'll learn, but I'm going to tell you I've had it interesting. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_07 0:26

We're live in three, two, one. All right, everybody. Welcome, West Point, Mississippi. It's another hot summer day. Toxic. Grueling. I don't know. What was the heat index yesterday? 110?

SPEAKER_02 0:37

117 later in the afternoon. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_07 0:40

Well, let me tell you what the index is on my end of the table. I've got a foot smell index going on that's pretty strong down here. I'm going to give it a on a 9 out of a 10. Dudley, what in the world?

SPEAKER_02 0:53

He just got through telling you he got his feet wet.

SPEAKER_07 0:56

Give him some slack, Bobby.

SPEAKER_08 0:58

I mean, come on.

SPEAKER_07 0:59

All right. All right. So, Matt, thank you for being here. Laney's on vacation. We're going to talk deer today. It's time to turn the page. It's always a welcome discussion to talk about a deer.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Especially with people that have a long history of watching them, studying them, understanding them.

SPEAKER_07 1:18

Yeah. And that that that's perfect uh segue, thank you there, Tox. You to introduce our guest. We've got Mr. Chris Cook from over near Tuscaloosa. I ain't say Tuscore. You're from Northport.

SPEAKER_05 1:29

Yeah, I I say Northport. I'm not going to admit I live in Tuscaloosa. So as an Auburn grad, I can't I can't stomach it.

SPEAKER_06 1:37

No wonder. Totally understand.

SPEAKER_07 1:39

Let's put the horn for him, please, if we could. There we go. So starting uh your career, you have were a biologist with the state of Alabama for a long time. Started in 1993.

SPEAKER_05 1:52

That's right. Yep. I uh finished finished at Auburn and on August 27th, went to work with the state on the 30th. So and worked there until August or April 1st of last year. So 30 years and some odd months, like seven months.

SPEAKER_07 2:07

And for the bulk of your career, you were a deer biologist?

SPEAKER_05 2:10

That's pretty much it. I uh I started out on one of the wildlife management areas, uh Wolf Creek, which is no longer there in Walker and Fett County. Then I moved to Dhammopolis to work primarily on DMAP. And uh in '97, I I uh assumed the duties of the deer project leader. Dave Nelson gladly surrendered that so he didn't have to fool with it. And uh I did that up until then they changed the name of it to Deer Program Coordinator, uh like 2015, 17, something like that. So basically 95% of my career, 98% of my career was spent primarily with deer, either through DMAP or or that plus the the deer programs.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

And managing with hunting clubs, no doubt.

SPEAKER_05 2:59

Yeah, a lot of hunting clubs, a lot of landowners, and and all my time outside that short standing Walker Fayette County has been in west central Alabama primarily, but I've dabbled in other parts of the state too, but mostly from from Montgomery up to Birmingham and the west.

SPEAKER_07 3:15

Was it a challenge to get a hunting club to get everybody on the same page? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05 3:20

Yeah, if there's more than one person, it's hard to get get them all on the same page. It uh especially when you're talking about deer hunting. There's uh always some little minute detail that they're gonna not agree on and and uh in the big picture doesn't really matter. You know, the that's I was talking to Toxie before we started recording that it's not brain surgery. It's uh when you cut right to the meat of it, it's it's pretty basic, common sense stuff. And uh people want to make it a whole lot more complicated than it has to be to grow big healthy deer.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

So yeah, the the like a lot of things you've heard me say is just it goes way past just deer clubs and deer hunting and deer management, but it's like you get in trouble anytime you have an opinion and you insist on it being the truth or the facts. And if you just like go into it as a group, even it's like my opinion and listen to other opinions, you can probably get to a better place. But when you have an opinion, you know, and deer hunters are the probably the worst. I don't know, turkey hunters, fishermen too, but anything that involves a lot of testosterone. You know, they have it all figured out from their years of watching deer something, you know, and you know, biology and science really don't mean that much. You know, it it's tough. It's tough.

SPEAKER_05 4:37

The the worst thing is groups that'll be on the right track, and then one or two of them have friends that go to Texas or go to Iowa or go somewhere and come back and tell them, well, they're doing this where I went and killed, look at all these big deer they're killing. And so then they they start and try to derail the the training they were already on heading in the right direction. So that that that just adds muddies to water uh when that happens. But that's real common because it's uh you know, if you're out of town, you're you're uh you're an expert wherever you go, but if you in your home, nobody cares what you have to say.

SPEAKER_07 5:14

So Chris, you worked for the state of Alabama, the conservation, for uh was it over 30 years?

SPEAKER_05 5:19

Yeah, 30 years and recently retired? Yep, last April 1st. Last was my first day of retirement.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

Well, I'll say just like we do with a lot of us. Just like we do with the veterans. Thank you for your service.

SPEAKER_05 5:30

Yeah, that's a long time. Yeah, it was it was fun. I I can't complain, had a had a hopefully a productive career, but I enjoyed a lot of work with a lot of good people, met a lot of good people, landowners, hunting clubs, and various walks of life throughout that time. So it was it was fun.

SPEAKER_07 5:48

Isn't it interesting how people get so passionate about growing big deer? Yeah and they'll reach out to get help and ask for help and pay private consultants to come in and uh all these things. I mean, thank goodness they do. I mean, that's kind of what we've you know, the we're part of that in in in many ways, uh in a lot of ways. Yeah. In probably all our ways. But thank goodness people care about the deer life.

SPEAKER_05 6:14

You know, it's uh in this room, I you know, it's from talking to y'all, it y'all all are still passionate about deer and deer management, but it's it's uh it became obvious later in my career that there were fewer and fewer wildlife biologists that were coming out of school that had that same approach. They were they were more enamored with turkeys and ducks and things like that. So it it was uh it got frustrating trying to communicate with with with the new staff that wasn't as passionate about deer, the you know, the the the golden goose, the one that drives the bus when you're talking about funding all these state agencies and people not really having the passion uh to to to manage that, help people manage that. And it it was frustrating. And and actually that's not uh from talking to some professors at various schools, it's the same same thing, having uh finding even graduate students for for for research projects and assistantships, finding people that are passionate about deer for deer projects and become has become more of a challenge than it ever was in the last 10, 15 years. So it's it's it's amazing. I would have never thought that. Did you go to school with in mind I'm gonna be a deer biologist? That was my goal, was to, you know, what else was there? That's that's what you went that's why you became a wildlife biologist back when I was in school is to to work with deer. Uh and it it worked out worked out for me. And I I was been blessed with been able to do it for three decades. So it was fun.

SPEAKER_02 7:45

So I mean it it occurs to me listening to them too in the age arena people, especially people with real significant wealth, if they you know, they really care. I think it feels like the the feeder system of um not just getting people excited about it, but you know, teaching them the reality of what's going on and and helping them make a career out of just our universities. And um seems like the better and more modern and up-to-date and progressive and you know, state of the art and all those things, facilities and training at the Mississippi State, Auburn, Georgia, Florida, I'm sure, other, you know, there's other ones around the country, great ones, um, that would be a point of emphasis for either whatever government funding or you know, people of normal, you know, it's part of the conservation process that we're so about. And, you know, you hear me preaching all the time. We're here to arm the army, which is everybody out there, but you know, the servant to them is are these biologists and these people and like his career he spent. And, you know, I started thinking, where does that really come from? He's saying we're kind of losing steam maybe these days. The enthusiasm's not quite the same at all. You know, that would that we could really give that a boost because I know a lot of energy comes out of Mississippi State. When I'm not I'm prejudiced, I went there, but it's right here under our nose, so I get to keep updated on things.

SPEAKER_05 9:15

You know what? I think a lot of it was when I was coming up, um there were still a lot of places where deer were new. There were parts of Alabama where they didn't know, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 9:25

I wanted to ask about that.

SPEAKER_05 9:26

And so now this, you know, 20 years later, a new gener uh, you know, the next generation of biologists, they've been deer everywhere their whole life. And so I think that probably plays a lot into it too. So and now with the the big interest and and emphasis on turkeys and what's going on with turkey populations, that's just a probably a natural progression and things. But uh and then the the ones that are interested in quail, that one really like you missed the boat. You should have been born 60 years and you uh you've gotta that's a real challenge then. You gotta you gotta uh really be a fanatic about it to to label yourself a uh quail biologist in my life.

SPEAKER_08 10:08

I guess some people just like a a really, really good challenge. It is, yeah, no doubt.

SPEAKER_07 10:13

So look, let's do this. We always uh, and I always forget to do it. I'm remembering it this time. We have a thing called rapid fire. Dudley will ask you some questions. We'll just get to know you a little bit better. Okay. It kind of helps loosen you up, perhaps. And uh we'll get started with that. It's brought to you by our friends at Nutri and Ag Solutions. You've probably seen some of their trucks riding around. They're great guys for uh the the farmers use them, and we're learning food plot guys are learning to use them. They got chemistry and all the inputs. So, Dudley, we're gonna turn it over to you. Okay.

SPEAKER_08 10:45

All right, so um, I don't know if you've done this before or heard it before, but you know, we're just gonna ask you a bunch of questions in rapid succession just to try to get to know you better. So, are you ready? Sure. All right, shampoo or shampoo plus conditioner? Shampoo. Well, I don't have much hair, so sometimes just the soap, you know. There's not much to condition. I'm the same way. Uh does Chris prefer to hunt more in the mornings or more in the evenings? I prefer the mornings, but I go more in the afternoons, if that makes sense. Okay, that's that's probably pretty common. What is your favorite tailgate or deer stand or hunting snacks? Hmm. Probably sunflower seeds, beef jerky. That's about that's easy enough. Okay. Uh, what is your favorite preparation of squirrel? Just fried is hard to beat.

SPEAKER_05 11:37

So that's uh, you know, growing up it was the gravy, but just fried is is pretty hard to beat.

SPEAKER_08 11:45

It's good enough, it really is. Uh name an underrated native forb that uh or lesser known that you've seen out out in the many years of working uh that that you think uh folks need to manage for?

SPEAKER_05 12:00

Hard to pick one because there's so many that deer will eat at various stages of the of that growth. Well, what's what's one of your favorite forbes? You know, common ragweed, or you know, common ragweed's hard to beat it is hard to beat. Popeweed, uh you know, the the time of year when they're they're growing rapidly and and uh and that but you know again that's the case with with most things and various species of Desmodium. Yeah. Uh it's really really hard to beat, a lot of the asterisks, so it's just you know, that's when people start asking what's a deer's favorite food. So the best answer is it depends. Yeah, depends on the time, the time of year and the and the the site and everything else. But there's there's just so many, you know, the list of things they don't eat is a whole lot shorter than the ones of the things that they do eat. So it's it's probably a whole lot easier to to make that list than than anything else. So it's it's always a hard one when you start talking about what's a it is a hard one.

SPEAKER_08 12:56

Yeah. And it just we just uh went from rapid fire to slow answer. That may be a new record. Um all right, let's pick this back up. Uh your favorite condiment for fried shrimp is it hot sauce, ketchup, comeback, tartar sauce, plain, or just bougie lemon juice on the top? For shrimp, probably cocktail sauce. Uh Alabama deer season, forced to pick either the first half or second half of the season if you had to pick one.

SPEAKER_05 13:28

Again, that's that's one of those tough questions. It depends on where you're at, but probably the first part of season.

SPEAKER_08 13:34

Okay. Um slimy okra, fried okra, or no okra? Fried. Uh forced to pick one cereal grain for a food plot blend. Oats, rye, or wheat? Wheat. Um and last but not least, if you had if you were to have cereal grains in a blend, are you kind of more of the light on the grains, like less than 80 pounds an acre, or do you like to fling it heavy? In a blend with like with clover and brassicas. Less than 80. Less than 80. Okay. Good.

SPEAKER_07 14:09

Here we go. We learned a little something there. Learned a lot of something.

SPEAKER_08 14:12

The the the cereal grain thing interests me a lot, and I know that's not a really great last question, but uh you see a lot of people doing different things. Uh some people like the cereal grains to be spread out, so yeah, in theory, the turkeys can move around in them. Some people like to go for the heavier, heavier forage.

SPEAKER_05 14:33

Well, the way I look at it is if you're adding those other things in with your cereal grains, you don't want to put too much competition for that because it's it's a whole lot cheaper to buy wheat and oats than it is to buy clover and and various other add-ins. So if I'm if I'm more focused on getting maximum production out of that food plot, it's it's not going to be by adding more grain. I like it.

SPEAKER_07 14:57

That's that's kind of how we build our blends. Yep. So, Chris, take us back in time when you were a young biologist and you you you were capturing deer in the Bankhead Forest. And can you talk us through what y'all were doing, why you were doing it, how you were doing it?

SPEAKER_05 15:12

Yeah, the um my project when I, you know, my master's degree uh actually was catching deer at Stimson Sanctuary, moving them to Bankhead National Forest. I think Fred Stimpson talked about that, uh, about the last kind of capture that they they did down there. Fred Pringle. Sure did, sure did. And uh Fred Stimpson. But it was uh it was in January '91. I just started graduate school and we went down there, and uh it was uh it was a well-old machine catching catching a deer, Fred and his brother Ben and Gene Whitter, their supervisor. Steve Barnett was there, he was a biologist with us that retired. Uh it was uh, you know, like Fred described, using box traps and then the squeeze box to get them out and then you know, get them facing the right direction to reach in, grab them by the back legs, raise the door a little bit, grab them by the back legs and drag them out and hold them down. And uh the ones that we were well, we was putting metal ear tags in all of them. And then we had certain, you know, we were trying to catch ten adult bucks and put radio collars on them, ten uh year and a half old bucks or or buck fawns. We were we were trying to get either one, and then ten uh does. And so we would get them out, put the ear tags in all of them, the ones that we wanted to collar, we'd put a collar on them that was drawing blood from them. And so that was for another project. And all this was you know, without any kind of sedatives, it's just holding them down, uh, throw throw something over their eyes once you got them out to calm them down a little bit, then stick them back in the squeeze box and stick them in the the truck to be transported, and then try to keep up with Fred and Ben heading up the interstate and they've heading back up there. So they they they moved pretty quick with a two-ton and and then a half-ton truck hauling those deer. So uh over those they had turned, uh they had done that the year before. Um trapped and moved a bunch of deer up there to bank head and they'd ear tagged all of them. And they had gotten some tag returns um pretty good distance from where they'd released them. So that made them question whether the deer were actually staying you know within Bankhead. Bank or Black Warrior. Black Warrior's a huge WMA, you know, it's like 98,000 acres. So even though it's that you know big, they were still traveling. Uh I think they'd had some had one buck show up like 30 miles away and got killed. Um and so that turned into a graduate student project with Doctors Causey and Struval in there at Auburn. So um another graduate student, Steve Shatler, and I were up there for a year following those deer and and uh most of them survived and and most of them stayed within the boundaries of of Bankhead and and more specifically Black Warrior WMA. So uh we did have some take off, um go a little bit further, but it wasn't near as bad. And survival was real good. I think that was probably more so to probably attributed to not being sedated and whatnot. So they were it it lessened the stress. They they were put into a you know did what we had to do, then stuck in a black box, and so they probably calmed down pretty quick. But uh we had a most of the ones that ended up dying with were some of the the fawns that were collared, uh, which was you know understandable. They were just it was in January in an area that was overpopulated with deer, is Stimson. And uh so that was uh a lot of stresses to put on a relatively young deer. But uh the adults, uh those adult bucks especially, they they did great and uh stayed pretty close to where we turned them loose.

SPEAKER_07 19:01

I'm surprised that well well you said most of them stayed. That that that's what I would have expected. That one that traveled so far, it had to be an outlier, I suppose.

SPEAKER_05 19:08

Yeah, he was uh he was one of the bigger bucks that we didn't we tried not to collar any real big bucks uh just because they turned most of them loose back on the you know, turned them back loose on the sanctuaries. I think Fred mentioned when y'all were talking about.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

Yeah, I mean, plus you put your stuff in harm's way.

SPEAKER_05 19:24

Yeah, and they're they're more likely to injure themselves or kill themselves by sticking them into a box with their antlers, you know, hard antlers still on. So uh but we did turn one pretty good deer loose and probably somebody killed them and threw the collar into a creek because we found the collar in the creek. Um but they the collars were kind of uh rigged. At that time they you know, now they have collars that you can trigger using GPS signals to fall off. You know, at that time it was how can we make a collar that will will stay on long enough for this study, but still, because these were on young deer as well as bucks, that the neck was going to get bigger uh during the run. Unfortunately, we were just about probably at the peak of neck size for the adult bucks, but uh it ended up being using the regular nylon two-inch wide collar and just cutting a section and fixing two pieces of uh surgical tube in between plates to allow it to flex and then that would deteriorate and come apart. So we had some of them that you know lasted uh a month or two to something, you know, that probably got cut by the plate, but but some of them lasted over a year. So uh they they weren't good for what they were intended for, but uh that was that was probably uh the one that we founded the found in the creek off of that bigger buck. That probably was a buck that got shot and then they pitched it in the creek because they was afraid to they might get in trouble for some reason, which they there wasn't anything that said they couldn't shoot the deer. So uh that part of other than on the the management area where they were turning loose, that that part of the imaginary was closed to deer hunting there for that year and the next year, and I don't know about the following year, but they they released deer up there three years in a row, 90, 91, 92. And uh if I'm not mistaken, it's between like three or four hundred deer was released up there over that time.

SPEAKER_07 21:28

So a lot of deer. I saw a map that you had that showed Alabama had had almost four thousand deer.

SPEAKER_05 21:36

The total, you know, that's that's the that's the known re you know, releases restocking efforts from dating back from the I think the f earliest was up at Bankhead and the twenties they they released uh Hunter and Something Deer from Iron Mountain, Michigan up there. And uh then in the late thirties early forties it was uh Hunter and Something Deer released on On Oakmorge W uh National Forest, uh Calladega National Forest, and what today's um Chocolaca WMA and then Oakmorge WMA. And then a spot there in Shelby County. I think I don't know that anybody's there. I I haven't found out exactly why that place was why they released deer from those deer from North Carolina there, but um those were some of the earliest uh restockings, and then the state started in like 45, 46 or something, releasing deer primarily from from Stimson and Upstra Upper State Sanctuary, and then also they they got deer from um you know Westerbelt property in Pickens County and Sumter Farms there around Geiger was a source, and and then uh some deer from Moringo County around uh uh Merrill Wood, I believe it was, somewhere down in there. And so they were that those four counties were were the typical or the the primary sources for Alabama with overwhelming majority of those coming from from Clark County.

SPEAKER_07 23:05

So so back in the in 1945, was do you know was the thought to try to create recreational opportunities for the or was it to help feed people?

SPEAKER_05 23:16

Oh it was it was to try to get the deer population going again because they were there were no deer in most places. So uh and they they took off. It was it was phenomenal how they responded, but you know, deer into which were probably pretty good habitat because they hadn't been deer there before or there for a while, so the deer the habitat should have been in pretty good condition and and the deer responded well from from that and and having protection, they weren't weren't being hunted uh legally. And so they they took off and and uh soon became you know a an issue and well they became an issue in these in these counties over here in West Alabama where they they didn't need to be restocked. They had a few pockets of deer and those those populations took off.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

Oh gosh, yeah. I know I I couldn't remember that because you know spent most of my life either in Clark County or Sumter County. Yeah, yeah, you know, those two places. But um it it is amazing. I I can remember just right off the bat, say in the 70s, 70, 70, early 70s, um those places were pretty much overpopulated already. And the worst thing we did, which is they were, you know, you if you saw a buck, I mean a cowhorn spike or a three-point, it was it was like topic of conversation.

unknown 24:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

If you saw a buck, because everybody shot a buck, you know. Yeah, and it just shows you how you live and learn, and I'm sure we're we're doing stuff today that we'll learn from too, but um, there were so many deer and it just kept on getting worse and worse because you know, we weren't shooting any does.

SPEAKER_05 24:56

Yeah. I remember uh Dave Nelson, I mentioned him earlier, was was my supervisor when I moved to Dimopolis. He's a true pioneer in Alabama. He was a he was a heckful guy. Um when he was a student at Auburn, he fell in. He was always looking for an opportunity to to get involved with with wildlife research or whatever was going on. He tells a story about falling in with a uh graduate student, Lamar Robinette, to come over. He was doing a project on a the American can pro uh property between Bellamy and Whitfield. Oh man. They were having the first amazing dough hunt.

SPEAKER_02 25:33

Allison Lumber Company.

SPEAKER_05 25:35

And they uh I think the the original plan was to collect data off every dough. Then it as they started just pouring in there, it became all right, we'll get it off every other one, then every third one, then every tenth one, and just like we'll get it when we can. It was he just talks about the number that we're giving. How many were that weekend? They were like probably hundreds.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Yeah, he didn't he, he meant because it was they owned from over in Moringo County all the way through Sumter County, all the way over to Mississippi, if I'm not mistaken. I remember looking at a plat book of the 1950s. And uh like the old the old Shady Grove there, you know, right out from that was that was I think Andy Allison's place too, but the Dean Swamp, probably all that historic stuff through there. They even had an elk population at one time. Yeah, you mentioned that one. But I think what he would do is just have an enormous amount of people and guests, and maybe their customers there, whatever, and then they would just put them out all over, you know, many, many, many thousands of acres and have people and dogs and you know, driving and moving deer and just shoot as many as they could. Isn't that about right?

SPEAKER_05 26:45

Yeah, I think that's my understanding of how it worked. But it was uh, you know, they were Lamar was collecting the data for the project he was working on, and it was just uh soon became overwhelming for him and his helper.

SPEAKER_08 26:57

It's like that video, that ad of that company when they first set up their company, and the you know, they're like, Well, what are we gonna do? And then the phone starts ringing and it doesn't stop. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 27:08

So take me back 1945 when Alabama started this. Were other states like say Louisiana, Arkansas, Georgia, were they doing the same thing about the same time?

SPEAKER_05 27:16

I'm not sure about the timeline, but most states, uh somewhere thereabouts, probably in the 40s, 50s, 60s, most southeastern states, if they did restock, they were doing it then.

SPEAKER_07 27:27

And were y'all cooperating with each other and helping?

SPEAKER_05 27:30

I'm not sure on the deer. I don't recall many records of of of Alabama supplying deer to other states. We there were some restockings in Alabama using deer from other states, but it was minimal outside of that one at Bankhead from Michigan and the ones I mentioned on those national forest properties from North Carolina. There was a you know a handful from Wisconsin, Tex. There was some from Texas released down there in Covington uh or Connecticut National Forest around Blue Spring WMA, and then a couple from Ohio.

SPEAKER_07 28:07

Arkansas. I saw some from Arkansas.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

Well, I mean, don't you think some some not to call any names, I've heard of a couple, some like big landowner people just kind of took the matters in their own hands and stuff. I know one in particular, not very far from here, and a family, and I remember we leased a place next to it, and the deer would I've never seen deer so soft. And they say, yeah, they they brought in all these deer from like way south Texas, like King Ranch and all, when they stocked their deer.

unknown 28:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

That was an individual person, not the state, doing it, you know. Because I guess back in the day there weren't regulations to keep you from it.

SPEAKER_08 28:44

Probably not. They probably weren't looking too hard for it either.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

No, they're like, yeah, bring more deer in wherever you get them from. We need more deer, you know.

SPEAKER_05 28:51

Yeah, the the any concerns of of disease or anything like that probably weren't weren't even on the radar then. I wouldn't think, because the things we think of now weren't even known of back then.

SPEAKER_07 29:02

So as a biologist in the 19 early 90s, you guys were learning stuff every day y'all were out there.

SPEAKER_05 29:08

Yeah, it was uh, you know, I was fortunate that I was I was stuck in the well, it was night and day coming from Walker and Fett County where I was at, where it was really low deer density on that WMA.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Yeah, they all came to Sophie. They all came to Subfacing.

SPEAKER_05 29:22

And that was the thing. That was probably one of the biggest changes I saw over my career was the the shift in in hunting pressure on these WMAs, uh, where people were coming from these parts of the state where there weren't any deer and they were hunting the crap out of WMAs. They would be there would be, you know, thousand fifteen hundred people on a hunt uh trying to kill a doe because it it would be there were very limited uh either sex days on those WMAs at the time. They would be maybe one or two during the season. And uh it would be limited a draw. They would have to come in and draw a uh a ball or something, and if you got the right color ball, you got an either sex tag, and it was funny watching these guys trying to beat the system by coming through one time without a face mask on and coming through the next time with a ski mask on. All right. I know it's you. And they would they would bring everybody that was in the house that day with them. They would be the the feeble grandma and grandpa to down to the the five-year-old. Everybody was coming trying to get a dough tag, and it was it was a big event, and especially these uh these WMAs over here where uh I worked in West Alabama. They it was it was something, it was uh definitely an eye-opening experience for from a guy that grew up dog hunting in North Florida. So it wasn't I we hunted public land, but it was dog hunting, it wasn't and there it was hunting clubs, it wasn't regulated like it was on the W May.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

There's you have an idea for a new book, Bobby. Yeah. Or a movie.

SPEAKER_05 30:59

There was uh on the W May where I was at the Wolf Creek, there was probably more people uh came through the the one day of of that we had for either sex hunting than than all the other gun day hunts or gun hunt days that year. Uh had like 900 and something I think that year come through on that one day. And uh most of the hunts they would be 150 people and they may or may not kill a deer. But uh, you know, you have everybody come on that day and they killed some deer because they couldn't help but kill them. So they were being tripped over, you know, and in the same way at at you like Oak Mulgy WMA and and LaMarion or Sam Murphy WMA. It was something back back in the day. And then you know, other it was the same way across the st all over the state on the W Mays, because a lot of those were the only places that had deer in those areas. And so people, especially folks out of like Toxie said, Walker, Winston counties, Cleaveran County, Calhoun County, Edawalk County, those were those were the the heart of the W May hunter population in this part of the stuff.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

I forgot what the number was on the tags, but it seemed like it was 60 something. But 67. Yeah, 67. Walker County, Walker County, Walker. When I was a kid there, Walker County everywhere. So yeah, a little bit of a sidebar from the conversation, but I got a um public service announcement. But just um it reminds me of how precious and valuable our public lands are. Absolutely. And thinking about you, you know, what I started thinking about was how some of the people that just about don't have a place to go are the ones that are most fired up and eager and excited to be a deer hunter, and how it breaks my heart when they don't have access. And then I immediately went to the matters of the day we're in, the week, you know, what's going on right now, and how I hope everybody out there listening gets the message how critical those places for people are. Not just to hunt and you know, feed the family, but just to live life and connect with the world uh like that. And so keep our tradition to life. Absolutely, you know, participation.

SPEAKER_08 33:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

So I had I just had to get that in there because it it just jumped out at me when he started talking about how passionate these people were to have a place to go at all, you know. No, clearly.

SPEAKER_07 33:21

That the when he said 1,500 people at a hunt, that's that's hard to wrap your mind in.

SPEAKER_05 33:25

And that that was at the tail end of the peak. It was it was uh a heck of a lot more. Um like an orange hat every hundred yards. It was something.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

And it was uh probably didn't have orange, yeah, it's orange hats.

SPEAKER_05 33:39

They had to have orange hats, but it was it was it was amazing it was people and it it amazes me that folks that that hunt WMA's now complain about it being crowded. Like you ain't you don't have a clue what it used to be like. And this, you know, if they see somebody else, they think it's crowded. Or if somebody's parked at the road they wanted to hunt on, then it's crowded. There may be that may be the only other person out there that day, but in their mind it's crowded. So it's uh it's it's amazing the the how the this the perspective is skewed these days on some things like that.

SPEAKER_07 34:14

I wanted to ask you about the about if you had to I had a hard time talking people into shooting does, but listening to you now, I don't think that's a I think you're gonna tell me it was no problem at all to get them to shoot does.

SPEAKER_05 34:25

Well, it was depending on the who you talk to, they would still be people on those WMA hunts that you know they wouldn't shoot a doe if you if you had a gun to their head.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

Oh, it was it was uh the ultimate humility.

SPEAKER_05 34:36

They would stand there and complain about it for two hours before they left with their buck tag.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Yeah, but people were running. I remember people around here, even some of the earlier like hunting club manager people and stuff, influencers. And uh boy, they were like, they ain't shooting no those in my club. Yeah. Runin, running our deer hunting. I mean, it was just like how do you spell running? Runin'.

SPEAKER_05 35:01

Well, that that's the that's the whatever version of rent. That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_07 35:07

That's the plural. Mac, when I was uh in 1993, Mac, what were you doing in 1993? Run it, running around. So uh when I was in in my early teens, I got invited to go to a hunt. It was in Barber County, and it was near the Barber County Management Area. And when it got dark, it started getting dark. I started hearing shots, and I heard it was hundreds of shots. And I got I thought, what in the world could they be doing over there? But I've learned it was a muzzle loader hunt, and all those guys were unloading their muzzle loaders at the end of the hunt. But but that told me how many people were over there.

SPEAKER_05 35:45

Yeah, and that that's another thing. That was a back in those days, every muzzle loader hunt, I believe, was either sex. So there's a lot of people was hunting with muzzle loaders uh because of that opportunity to shoot a day. I miss those days.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Oh, that was so much fun. Man, there uh there's so many people, you know, the old days we had Brian Foods here where my dad owned and I mean, uh, you know, worked and ran a bunch of it and whatever um 2,500 employees. And there's I can't even tell you how many people would take their vacation for muzzle utter season. And they lived and loved it.

SPEAKER_07 36:20

I mean, and now it seems like muzzle utter has been modernized to where it's not really a primitive weapon anymore.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

It's not that that whole season. No, no, it's different for sure.

SPEAKER_07 36:30

Yeah. So I would have I'm I'm I'd like to think about back in the days, and then we're gonna move up onto more modern times, but before we leave that back how it was, though, so you spent your time traveling around helping these clubs understand what they needed to do. Were they trying to grow more deer or bigger deer? What was most of them's goal?

SPEAKER_05 36:51

See that the the mid to late nineties was the heyday of Dmap in Alabama. We had, I think at the peak there's like 2100 cooperators around 98, 99, and uh and so most of those folks they were okay with killing a two-year-old buck, but most of them were trying to get to three years old. There's very few of them that were even kidding themselves by thinking they were gonna manage deer to five years old because they they were just wanting to get them three years to three years old.

SPEAKER_02 37:24

And so uh Well, there was a lot of the eight-point thing floating around then that was terrible.

SPEAKER_05 37:28

There was a lot of a lot of very What was that?

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Eight or better. We don't shoot nothing but eight or better. Yeah. You know, I mean we're I was involved, I was the same way, but you know, I was ignorant.

SPEAKER_05 37:39

Yeah, nobody thought about uh you know using their shape or body shape, body size or anything to try to to help age them. It was all right.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

I mean it's hard today, you know.

SPEAKER_05 37:53

And it and it we just talking about right off the bat about disagreements in in hunting clubs, and so you have all different not only opinions, but you have all different kind of skill levels when you're talking about a group of hunters, and so making it as easy as you can to help them meet that criteria, whatever it may be. And and so yeah, you're gonna you're gonna screw up by shooting a really good two-year-old that may be an eight-point, but most of them on a lot of properties aren't gonna have eight points at two years old, so you're it works okay. Uh then of course with the ones that that were were maybe a step ahead, you you work with them to try to come up with a a better uh answer rule that would would include some other criteria like spread or beam length, and and uh there's some pretty good, you know, we had a lot of data back then from a lot of properties, and so you could look at the data, and it it was pretty clear in most of West Alabama having a rule where the deer had to have a 14-inch inside spread or a or an 18-inch main beam would would protect nearly all the two-year-olds and make nearly all the three-year-olds legal, if you will, on the on the property. So that was a slowly getting people to adapt those kind of concepts. And uh but uh initially it was just trying to to get them not to shoot two-year-olds.

SPEAKER_02 39:13

Don't you I was gonna ask you, do you I'm leading the witness, somebody asked this question, but don't you think that for me when I saw us turn the corner, because when we first you made the comment when when shoot harvesting does finally became clear it's the thing to do, and then they changed the laws, there was a lot of hesitancy, right?

SPEAKER_05 39:34

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

So it seems like to me, and I saw that too, um people, and I hate to say it, we're we're driven by our egos, especially deer, you know. And people have been programmed all their life, it's embarrassing to shoot a doe. It's not a whatever, even a man guy hunting, not a manly thing or hunting. But then, I don't know, it wasn't but a couple of years, people started talking about how many deer they passed up. Right. And they got embarrassed about shooting the little buck, and it all changed, and we started really making progress. But it was to me, I know there were people doing it to do the right thing, but it was also when it became embarrassing to shoot the young buck that they started living longer. Don't you think?

SPEAKER_05 40:17

Yeah, peer pressure is a powerful tool. So it uh that whole the whole thing of of well, I've let that buck walk twice last week and you go ahead and shoot him. You know, that that that works pretty well in in most groups, but uh with the dough, with the dough stuff, it I I mentioned D MAP peaked in the late 90s. That also is the time when Alabama started making their either sex opportunities a whole lot more liberal. Right. And so uh very liberal DMAP participation fell off the cliff and uh because most of them were just in it to get some dough tags. He was asking about how you know working with them about managing bucks and this and that, and to be truthful, most of them are just there to get some tags.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

Well, you started in the 90s, you had the hardest job in the country because you had the state that probably had a vibrant deer herd longer than any state, and their laws were a buck a day for 90 days or a hundred days. No does could be shot. I mean, people would I remember people bragging about killing 20, 25 bucks a deer season. It was illegal. You inherited a mess when you started.

SPEAKER_05 41:24

Well, it was, or if you look at it on the other side, it was it was an easy situation to come into. If you could just get them to not shoot as many bucks, hell I was a genius. Because then they would see some bigger bucks next year. Right, yeah. This worked. It's true. Like I'm true. I didn't shoot 25 this year, I only shot 10. And so next year we saw some bigger bucks. So it it uh but yeah, it was it was a a a hard, a hard road ahoe in a lot of situations for for those two factors, having being able to shoot a buck every day and then then not having that beat into their head about you know doe killing was bad.

SPEAKER_07 41:58

So to Toxie's point, no names here, but do you recall through your career hearing stories about somebody in some community that killed 80 deer a year or something? Was it were there stories like that?

SPEAKER_05 42:10

Oh, I've seen it on Dmap kill sheets. Uh if you you know considering bucks and does. Now they I've seen some guys kill 20 plus bucks, several of them, on properties, and it was nothing illegal about it. Now they were they were in some places that had a lot of deer, had a lot of bucks, and they were shooting ones that met that, like Toxie said earlier, whatever the criteria was. Three on one side, a six-point or eight-point rule for that property. They look I that's the club rules, and I'm gonna stick to it. And uh there's one guy I remember on the club in Lowndes County, hell, he would kill that many every year with a bow. Bucks.

SPEAKER_08 42:45

I know who he was, dude. And he uh I'm I'm just gonna say I bet that was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_05 42:50

Yeah, and he would kill, he would kill the majority of those for that property. It was a big club over there, and he he was an attorney. I think he was an attorney out of Birmingham, I think. And he he did uh he was a heck of a hunter, apparently. I mean you can't you can't kill that many with a bow and not be. So uh that was the one that sticks out to me. But there's still some there were still some folks not too long ago that was shooting 15 plus bucks a year on Dmap, even though it's not legal. They're still doing it thinking they could, and you'd tell them year after year, no, you can't do that.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

One of the unsung legends, he got some notoriety of bow hunting was Jerry Simmons from Alabama. He got hired, you may have heard of him, he got hired by landowner stuff too, because they didn't want the noise to kill does all with a bow, and uh he killed some ridiculous numbers. Almost all antlerless, too.

SPEAKER_05 46:32

He was one of those Walker County hunters, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:35

Buddy, he was lethal. He would get in the tree state all day long. He made the best broadheads. I killed my first buck with them. The land shark? Yep, the land shark after that. The interceptor was the first 195 green.

SPEAKER_05 46:48

They still make them.

SPEAKER_07 46:49

Yeah and Dudley, this guy was the best at walking around and identifying uh a feed tree and saying, Oh, you need to hang right here. He he was unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Yeah, he was he was he was the real, real, real deal. So and a super nice guy.

SPEAKER_08 47:06

Wasn't he the guy that said that he found a hickory tree that deer would eat?

SPEAKER_02 47:10

Too often he was telling me No, they were soft, the shells were completely soft.

SPEAKER_08 47:14

And that the deer he said he had never seen it before, but he found a hickory that the deer would eat. I think it was on public land too.

SPEAKER_05 47:21

Probably Wolf Creek. He he was grew up or lived right there. Is he still alive? Simmons Trail. I don't think so. There was this road, Simmons Trail, named after his family or him there on Wolf Creek.

SPEAKER_07 47:32

It was poison, too. So Chris, was there a window of time where it my memory's a little foggy on this, but seems like we were encouraged, or it was the the word on the street was that a spike was always a spike. Yeah. Oh my gosh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:49

That was uh that was kind of right before I came on board that was still being pushed. You I'd go back and look at some old DMAP recommendations that that folks, some game fish biologists had sent to folks, and and they would be talking about shooting, you need to shoot some spikes and this and that.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

But uh yeah, that was still the spike was an inferior genetic.

SPEAKER_05 48:12

That was still quite prevalent in a lot of places.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

And so, yeah, Mississippi State blew that up. I think all the way back to Dr. Jacobson, but they had a someone brought them a spike yearly. And in five years old, it was like 178 inches. I remember a Mississippi deer. And so that blew up the the theory of, and we, you know, there was a lot more information too. That a lot of the it seems like the deer I heard people talking about too, the deer in Alabama tended to have a lot more like spikes in a year and a half than Mississippi, and that was because of the rose later and hadn't developed as much. Is there improved to that?

SPEAKER_05 48:50

They just didn't have as much time to grow that first set of antlers. So it took them not only that first year, it took them two, sometimes three years to get caught up with that cohort that was born earlier. Um and so it was uh and it's still an issue in a lot of places. So it it's uh it's something that you you can't get around. It's just how it is, but uh just to understand that there's there's nothing wrong in most situations with especially that year and a half old spike. He's just uh that's just what all he's had a chance to grow. That's just a great example of research educating us and making things better.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

Yeah, so so the qu another question too, and it would have happened during your tenure. Um the and I'm I keep picking Alabama, but I grew up in the middle of all that and and was around it. The the killing all these bucks, never shooting does, getting the herd so out of balance. Um do you think that is something that pushed the rut back further? I don't know. I think there was It seems like it got further back until we started writing the ship there.

SPEAKER_05 49:55

If you if you look at you know the the data we we started collecting data looking at conception dates back in ninety five. I guess when I first moved down here. It would have been Kevin McKinstry with with that then that time Gulf States Paper Corporation. And then Joel Martin, who who had he had got hired on the same time with Game of Fish, then he went to work for James River as their biologist. They they approached the division about getting a permit to collect some deer to look at conception dates on property that you know Westerveld or Gulf States and James River property. And so that kind of started the uh the data collection efforts of of the game of fish uh biologists to look at conception dates around the state. And if you look at um all that data, it becomes pretty clear how management practices and management history affects those those conception dates. You know, the the ones that were less than than ideal, where they weren't weren't managing for for at least adult bucks and and trying to keep the the sex ratio somewhat close, adult sex ratio, their conception dates were prolonged and drawn out, you know, 45 plus days, and the other ones were were would be as short as 20-day window. They were all getting bred, um, and then you rarely saw a dough that was bred outside that window on the second estrus. And so in that situation, yeah, there was a lot of lot of places that were having more spikes probably than they do now because of how they were being managed, and now they're you're seeing, you know, maybe some four and six-point yearlings because they're being bred that first cycle. All the does are being bred that first cycle, or nearly all of them. And so those deer have an additional month to grow antlers as opposed to all the all the ones that were out there that were a month or even two months behind because they were their mothers had been bred on the second or third cycle. So but if you look at you go back and look at all those all that data, all the conception date data that we have and look at the the restocking history in these counties, most of these western counties weren't restocked. So the deer that are here were the populations just came back from the remnant populations that were around when there was hardly any deer here. And so you see a progression from down there in Clark County where the the rut is really late, you know, basically first of February, a little bit later.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

Yeah, it just seemed like it used to be in the middle to late January and it moved back a couple weeks.

SPEAKER_05 52:36

And it starts progressing earlier and earlier until you get up, you know, into to like mid-Sumter County and north. You start seeing more right around 1st of January, even into December. Um and then you get up just a little bit above there, and you get into those counties that were stocked with deer from Alabama, and then it starts muddying up again. So you start staying some some later January and even some February stuff, and then you get over into kind of that northeastern quarter of Alabama, and it's it's just a mess because they was most of the deer that was restocked over there was from from South Alp or Clark County. Well, there was a lot of places that were stocked with Clark County, they just apparently there weren't many deer at all in that part of the world, and so they have a lot of those uh areas where they'll have you know a mid-January rut and then February, and the properties are managed pretty well, you know.

SPEAKER_02 53:33

Sumpture County is my my love over there, and we have a place that's kind of central and then north. And I mean, I'm not I didn't they hadn't, you know, whatever chick fetuses in a long time, but it's a good three weeks difference in the butt. And it's maybe as the crow plies 15 miles, maybe not that far.

SPEAKER_05 53:58

And you look at the you know, highway 80 was is kind of the boundary of zone A and zone B for Alabama's deer seasons. And the reason it was reason we approached that, or reason uh that was the initial proposed boundary was because you start seeing that tipping point from late January, February conception dates to at least over in this part of Alabama, you start moving north of 80 and it starts, it's like Toxie says, it's not that far removed from from uh where they're breeding like that to where they're breeding earlier in January. So it's uh it was a good place to back when the when the idea was to have a season that ended January 31st in zone A and then let them hunt in February south of there, and then it it all got muddied up and and uh bastardized whenever we started talking about how can we get game check legalized. Well, we can do that by letting you hunt in February in North Alabama. That was you know and so we just threw the all the data that we'd been arguing, well, we're gonna make seasons, we're gonna set seasons based on what the data says. And we just threw that out the window whenever whenever we started to have certain people had to make backdoor deals to seems part of the game course these days. So it was uh it was something, but it it's it's definitely a uh you can see that progression over here in West Alabama, but you get out in other places because of the restocking history, and it it becomes a lot lot less clear about how conception dates change as you move from south to north. But it's it's pretty clear, at least in my mind, when you start looking at what's goes on in West Alabama as you progress north.

SPEAKER_04 55:43

So if you took a a map and overlaid conception dates and then locations of where the deer came from, and you were in a north part of the state and a south part of the state, and they were both from Wisconsin, they would theoretically have similar ruts.

SPEAKER_05 56:01

If there was no deer when those deer were restocked. But what happened, at least in Alabama, other than that bankhead, the Michigan release and those those populations that were restocked from North Carolina, there was probably other deer around whenever those deer from those other states were s restocked, and so it kind of got muddied, and the the number of deer that were stocked from Alabama overwhelmed what may have been from other states. But if you if you stocked, if if Alabama had restocked all those areas with deer from not just Wisconsin, but if they had to use deer from you know parts of Mississippi that have a real early rut or or the coast of Georgia, they would they would have it I don't think there's any doubt they would have a lot earlier rutting dates just because there was no other deer there to to muddy it. And so that's what you have when you turn them loose. That's kind of what you know. I mentioned Bankhead, they have a November rut. Uh and they're surrounded by everywhere outside of Bankhead is is January and maybe even February in some places. So it's uh it's that that's an island. Same way at Oakmulgey, Oakmulgey still has uh a lot earlier rut than everything around it, but it's still not as early as as it it probably was initially. It's just kind of, you know, that Hale County, Bibb County, Tuscaloosa County, those deer populations, you know, they exploded along with everybody else over the last 20 years, and so that uh that's not it's not as early as probably it was back in the in the 40s when it was first restocked, but it's still a lot earlier than everything around it.

SPEAKER_07 57:42

So do you think when you think back in your mind on the properties you've worked on that have grown, have accomplished their goals, grown big deer, is there is there can you name off one, two, three, four, five things that all those properties have in common that guys listening to this need to apply to their place?

SPEAKER_05 58:08

The main thing if you're trying to manage for older bucks is just to not shoot them when they're young. I mean that's that's as simple as it gets. But the problem is folks shooting really good three-year-old bucks. They're trying to manage for five-year-old bucks or four-year-old bucks, you know, the trying to grow as big as they can. But they just can't help themselves. They're shooting those three-year-olds that's on the right side of the bell curve. You know, the ones that are gonna be the 160 plus deer if there's gonna be one. They shoot them two years ahead of time or three years ahead of time. Um and then the the habitat part of things can't be under you know, understated. And it's not I'm not talking when I say habitat, I'm not talking about food plots or or a feeder. I'm talking about the stuff that feeds deer year-round, puts tons of food on the ground. It's the the management of the forests and the fields and things, the the fallow fields, the areas that that produce the bulk of a deer's diet for the year. Um we were talking about that at lunch. Yeah. Um and so it, you know, food plot and the f and feeding, they're they they should be viewed as supplements. They're there to carry those deer populations, help them through the stressful periods, you know, from kind of now through October, you know, when things start getting hot and typically dry and things start those those plants that are you asked me earlier about all those what preferred Forbs, those start things start getting less preferred just because they're not there, or they're they're getting to the the stage in growth that they're not as palatable or nutritious and and uh having those those things there, especially in in where they're they're working on the habitat and it's not quite where it needs to be. There so they have a bigger windows that they need some help. Um but those two things and then and then not you know taking enough dough, but not taking, you know, more than they need to, and that's and that that goes back to, you know, Toxie and I were reminiscing about the the good old days of the late 90s, early 2000s, where they were they were deer behind literally every bush in West Alabama. And so you could shoot, and and not everybody was shooting does. You could shoot a doe, you could shoot every doe you saw, but the next year they'd be just as many deer because everybody wasn't doing it. And so you're you weren't there wasn't uh, you know, it wasn't having as big an impact as it as it does now with with everybody taking a few. Um and so you don't have to take as near as many in in a lot of situations to keep the population where it needs to be for the habitat that's there. Uh and then the other thing, it's not, you know, it's and this is probably the the biggest thing as far as being able to kill those deer they're they're trying to kill, because that's the biggest challenge for a lot of folks. They can grow them. You know, I mentioned earlier, it's not a not a there's you know a big mystery of how to grow big deer or you know, older deer. But being able to kill them becomes the big hurdle that people a lot of people never get over. Um we've talked about the late rut and especially this part of Alabama and South Alabama. But our season comes in and you know, week before Thanksgiving, gun season does. Uh and people are hunting for two, two and a half months before pucks get breeding on their mind. And so it doesn't doesn't take much pressure. There's a lot of research that shows this. It doesn't take a lot of pressure to make a buck go, you know, limit their movement uh until they something like the rut comes along to where they they just can't help themselves and have to move. And so telling somebody, you know, if you the best way for you to kill a kill these bucks that you're getting pictures of is to not hunt for for ten minutes.

SPEAKER_08 1:02:02

That's a tough situation.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:03

Or to not hunt unless the situation is ideal. Um you know, I saw somebody when I got here, I saw somebody outside with one of the the uh buck condos or whatever it is in the back of a truck, and it's amazing how many folks think those or even even shooting houses made out of out of plywood. Some somehow magically makes it okay to hunt when the wind's wrong, or you can drive right to it and the deer doesn't hear you coming up there. Um But just the hunting pressure aspect and and knowing when to hunt and how and how to approach stands, those kind of things are are it's amazing how little thought people put into that. And that would, you know, growing deer is is not that hard, but but getting them on the ground is can be difficult, and sometimes it's just as little as simple as is to maybe not hunt as much. Hunt when hunt when the time's when it's right and when the opportunities are gonna be the best. And some people just can't, you know, hell I've paid this much for this lease, or I've I've heard this one a lot. I play, you know, you ask people, I said, why are you hunting the only places you hunt are food plots, and that's lot less that's one percent of the total acreage out here on this property. Well, I you know how much I spent on that food plot? You know, they're they're gonna hunt there because they they put so much effort into planning and and so much money into to uh you know success be damned, I'm gonna hunt right there instead of hunting where the deer are.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:31

And I think at this point, you know, uh maybe I'm evolving into one of those people. It's uh and it I don't it really depends on your goals, but I think a lot of people realize that, you know, I don't know if I want to put this climber on my back and walk 300 miles through this thicket and try to probably not see as many deer in hopes of getting that one good buck that, you know. I think some people are just happy, you know, they get a Sunday afternoon, they just want to drive their truck and walk 200 yards and sit in a shooting house. And you know, there's and there's nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:07

No, there's nothing wrong with it. And and they can you can definitely kill deer, kill big deer out of shooting houses on food plots. But it's gotta be, you've got to take a different approach to the big thing. You've got to manage your expectations. And you and you know, you've got to you gotta think about it a little bit more than well, it's I can get close to that one, so that's the one I'm gonna hunt. You know, the wind might not be exactly right for that stand, but I'm gonna hunt there just because it's easy to get to. Those those are things that you know Toxie mentioned earlier about dealing with people. That's just one of them things you you know, you can give them all kinds of recommendations about do this on the the deer herd side or this on the habitat side, but when you start talking about all right, but if you want to take the next step and and actually get some deer killed, then you need to think about this. Ah, we can't do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:57

So I've got uh you know we all sleep in a bed we might. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:03

I'm in a DMAP program in a club that I'm in, and we do jawbones and and weights. And so or would you say you would if you had to pick jawbone weights, or you use the jawbone with the weight to tell you where you're at?

SPEAKER_05 1:07:17

Yeah, you've got you've got to have the jawbone, you've got to have an age to go along with any of the other data you're collecting because a a 120-pound dough doesn't tell you anything if you don't have the age. Because there's some of the better places I've worked with over the years, they'll have 115, 120 pound year and a half old dough. But in other places, 120-pound dough is gonna be the outlier, and she may she's gonna be four or five years old. And so uh same thing with bucks. He was talking about the having uh a lot of a lot of properties still want to use some type of of antler criteria just because it's easier if they have people that aren't as experienced or or have guests, they can say, all right, well, this is this is the kind of buck you're looking for, antler-wise. Um that's why you can have that age to go along with that with antler measurements, so you can come up with that site-specific uh recommendations. And so having the age uh is key to any of it. You can have, you know, uh a property can hand me a list of well, we killed all these does, they weighed this is their weights, and this is you know, whether they were producing milk or not, but there's no ages. It it can tell you some things, but it definitely doesn't give you as good a picture of what's going on health-wise, herd-wise, as having the ages too. Same thing with antler measurements too. You you I mentioned that about the uh an issue with a lot of a lot of properties is people taking the cherry picking the very best of the of the age class because they you know, they see the antlers and they forget about looking at everything else, and they'll they'll take the very best three-year-olds when they're trying to manage for five-year-olds, and then they they can't figure out why they never produce 150-inch deer, which the potentials there habitat-wise and everything else, but they never seem to to make that get over that hurdle because they're shooting them at three and four years old.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:13

Yeah, because your superstar two or three-year-old is the one that's still naive enough or hexaging dumb enough to show himself. So, you know, that's the one that's the one that gets taken out most of the time. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:25

When when do you think uh like the peak uh, and I'm talking, you know, deer age class, uh best, you know, maybe the population wasn't out of hand. When when would you say that era was, you know, when was the best era for that in in most of Alabama?

SPEAKER_05 1:09:45

Uh well actually it's probably now if you're managing right. It's it can be any because everybody has deer, you know, and and everybody there's a lot more knowledge out there about uh taking out those about how to manage deer. But if you if you're just looking at at when when different areas produce the best deer, it's typically whenever that population's building before it ever gets to where it peaks, when it's on the upslope, people are killing a lot of deer and they're killing some big deer because the habitat's still good. They haven't places haven't got to where they're they're having habitat issues. And so in the in the black belt, it was probably in the in the 80s, uh, early 90s, maybe. Uh you get like in north of the Black Belt and in the Lamar, Fett, Marion parts of Alabama, it's probably like not too long ago to now. Uh they're they're in that they're in that swing now where they're up there, their populations from what people that hunt there tell me and manage you up there tell me their populations are through the Roof.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:51

So that's like near the Ponderosa. That is. You look at Bobby's clover field, you'd say his population was through the.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:57

I mean, you're talking to Matt Brock. He and I talk all the time. There's a lot of deer over in the Lower County.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:01

And you get over in East Central Alabama and Bullock, Barber, Russell, making counties. It was it was kind of kind of just behind when it was over here in west central Alabama.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:12

And there used to be some big, big deer down there.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:15

I don't know if they are now.

SPEAKER_08 1:11:16

I just remember hearing about the the black belt when I was a kid.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:20

It was I mean you would see ads for it in in hunting magazines and well even when I went down there, there was still you get over like the east part of Moringo County. Um South Perry County. They there's still on the upswing. There's a lot of ages. It was at the tail end of of when the ag was was going. There's still some areas, but it's not like it used to be.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:41

Well, that's where you had a major population, you know, a lot of stuff was driven by all the you know acre mass and the river drainages, but then that budded to a huge area of in for Alabama, you know, ag. So that that combination where those two intersected would grow some really good deer.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:57

Early 80s was when I was really started getting serious about deer hunting. And I can't tell you how many times I'd go someplace down on the Woodley Road, south of Montgomery, Bullock County, South Montgomery. And those old timers would say, Son, you should have been here 10 years ago. And I mean, I just missed it by just a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:13

Oh, you got it. I think you got some of it. Yeah. Looking around this room, I think you got a little bit of it. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:18

So have y'all noticed he keeps looking at Hercules? I mean, I I do have one.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:22

He is kind of facing that direction. One more. Okay, one more. I've got one more. Uh so being on a lot of different properties, mostly in Alabama, probably in other states, I would assume as well. What are some things that you look for naturally on a property that you're like this can grow a big deer?

SPEAKER_05 1:12:41

Well, you're you're looking for the not any particular plant per se. You're looking for that early successional, that that stage of growth, uh, whether it's in a pine stand or or or a fallow field or or even thin oak stands, you know, hardwood stands. And so you're you're looking to have a a a large component of of those various uh ages of plants, because that again, that's what deer are eating nearly you know, they're eat they have to eat that twelve months out of the year. And then also the components that uh for for good fawn rearing cover uh that that now is more of an issue probably than it I know it was when I first got started. We didn't you know the coyote's were weren't even thought of, but they do they do and can be an issue on properties, uh especially where the the certain habitat components are marginal. Um but if you have it's just like with turkeys, if you have outstanding habitat that covers all facets of of their life, um you can you can offset some issues with predation, but but I know uh I was talking to somebody the other day about about an ongoing project. I'm trying to remember it may be in Florida, it may be something Marcus Lashley's doing, looking at predator removal with turkey populations and how or it could be Will Goolsby, I can't remember. It may be both of them uh at Auburn. But looking at with all other things being equal, just removing nest predators, what it what it's making a difference on those properties, which is is kind of might not be exactly what folks have been saying uh recently. So and and and it could, you know, with deer it's it's probably uh I know it's a lesser of a concern uh just because they they uh it's a whole lot easier for a a fawn to get away from things than a than a two-week old pulp for sure or a nest full of eggs.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:47

So uh so yeah, the uh maybe ten years ago, maybe longer, but and it was on some of the James Riverland you talked about down there that used to be in the Allison family a long time ago. Our buddies at Bing Creek have a lot of that, and they worked together with Auburn and did a couple of years study, and they determined they were use losing over 70% of their phones to coyotes. That's just it was that bad. That's a big number.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:11

Yep, and you and you look at the That's an infestation. You look at the pine stands on on that. Yeah, I remember finally, or not finally, but vividly, of the some of the James River stands. They were clean. I mean, there would be nothing but nothing but two-year-old pines and and that was and a a little patch of broom sedge here and there, but but that was that's hard to for a fallen to hide.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:37

It's also perfect for a predator to never get shot at, too.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:40

Yeah. So think back to your heyday when people were doing what you suggested. Some of these better clubs around the state. What's the biggest deer you remember somebody growing and harvesting? Body-wise? But both antler and body. Body wise, Bobby. Yeah, no, no antlers. We just want to get it. Trophy, trophy, trophy, trophy.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:01

I asked the question.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:02

The biggest body-wise that I ever saw on Dmap data sheets, and I didn't see it in person. There was trying to remember what year it was. Anything over 300? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:14

It was I heard of one killed at near Miller's Ferry.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:17

There was two killed up in South Pickens, North Sumter County on that property. According to the data sheets, it was one that weighed 300, one that weighed 305. And then that same year, there was a dough reported uh by a D-MAP property over in Perry County, north of it's west of west of Selma, in the in the you know, a lot of agland. You know. And nothing gave me, made me think that they was something out of the ordinary based on their history of data collection.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:53

Yeah, those would be areas that grow have lots of food.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:56

Based on that cooperator's uh history, and there's no reason to to think they would have come up with something crazy like that. No. But later on, I find out about the guy with the 300 and 305-pound bucks that I don't know. He he has a reputation, but but again, that was I could believe it based on all the situation. But the biggest one I ever saw in person was 285 pounds over in uh Sardis and Dallas County. Um they they grow a lot of cotton over there, but they went through a few years when they started planting peanuts. Yep. And it was it was in those areas with peanuts, and uh I saw the uh Jamie Lewis, who's a processor over in that area, call me, asked me if I was in the area and actually was close by, and he told me to come by and look at it, and it was uh 285. But you know, the antlers weren't anything spectacular. It was seven-point, but they were really nice, but that was a giant deer.

SPEAKER_08 1:17:52

But I bet that guy, that dude ran every other buck out of the country with those seven points. And there was one pound.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:00

No, the the the one that I still can't figure where that deer came from, but do you remember Kennerbus WMA?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:07

Where it was at? Yeah, and that's like scrubby land, too.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:11

There was a buck, and it was weighed by our biologists. You know, they on the gun hunts we used to check every deer that was killed on the gun hunts. Um Bennett Mosley, who was the biologist, there's a lot of clear cuts, so there's browse.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:23

They checked the deer and it weighed 265, didn't they? What about antler size? Now we're not going to just gloss over that, but that was the biggest one that we can't.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:31

What's the big deal? Come on.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:33

The biggest deer I've ever seen. I would have thought this would have just popped in your mind just really quick.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:38

I mean, not everybody is the numbers guy by the biggest deer I ever saw on on the hoof was at Bankhead National Forest when I was up there as a graduate student. It was probably bumping 180 as typical.

SPEAKER_09 1:18:50

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:50

We saw it from the ground, him and two other bucks, and then we saw them several times from because we would fly a plane to follow the deer. We saw, we started looking for them. Uh they were in some food plots behind the workstation there on Bankhead National Forest. So we would, even if we weren't flying over there, we made a point to fly over there every evening in August, September, October looking for them. But food plots, man. The uh I've I've seen you know 100 and deer that gross 180 typical.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:27

That's kind of where I was trying to go. Is it possible to grow a 170 if you do all these things right? I mean, I just want to give everybody some hope.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:36

And I've measured, you know, I've measured deer that that gross uh 200 inches non-typical that were just killed, killed around Geiger, one of the biggest ones I measured. Uh but yeah, there's there's some me personally, the biggest one I've seen was probably uh um in the low 200s, gross. But it it's uh but there's some you know a lot of 150s, 160s. The biggest, you know, the most probably the most impressive deer I ever I remember seeing uh in Alabama was uh I think it was like 158 eight point from Sumter County. Wow. That was back in uh not long after it moved to Dumopolis. I have seen some of that right that's so you know when you start talking about 150 plus inch eight point, that's a heck of a dish.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:33

Yeah, we I mean we've had we've had some 220, 230 pound deer, but we killed one deer, verified two different scales, weighed 262. Yeah. Yeah. And what three back way back then. Another D-Map water.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:50

Over in uh Dallas County, he killed one. Oh, it's probably been 15 years ago, weighed 275, but he killed a couple other ones that were really big.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:59

I was always told that they killed this giant deer right there at Miller's Ferry Dam in Camden, and all there was all that Alabama river swamp and all, but then there was a 1,500-acre soybean field that a guy planted right there at the dam almost. And for years, and that I think the expanding population wasn't overdone, and they swarped down a guy who killed like a 340-pound deer, and it was the state record. That would have been 40 years ago. I heard about that, and I don't know what the subsequent record is or if that really was the record or not, but that's a big deer in Alabama. Yeah, that sure is.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:36

Hey, I've seen several um 240, 250 on some properties. Yeah, yeah. Seen a couple of them in person and a lot of them on the data sheets.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:46

I mean, look, if you've got a bigger body, you're gonna have a better chance than horns. That's just how it is.

SPEAKER_07 1:21:50

Well, so look, let's start kind of winding this thing down. If anybody's got more questions, they can raise their hand. But I want to ask you just a couple of quick questions. Okay. Uh do you think Alabama ever ever have a velvet season?

SPEAKER_05 1:22:01

Probably. You know, we mentioned about peer pressure being a powerful tool. So Mississippi. Yeah, Mississippi and Tennessee over here. Yeah, Mississippian, Tennessee. Yeah. It's just inevitable to have a lot of people.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:12

I mean, my thing is why not? Yeah. What's the downside? I'd give up a couple of days at the end to have a couple of days at the beginning.

SPEAKER_08 1:22:17

I know some people complain about it, you know, like, well, we've got all these days, you know, already, yada yada. But so, I mean, I don't get why deer. We got a lot of them.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:27

You don't even need fun with velvet season.

SPEAKER_08 1:22:30

You're still subject to the limit, you gotta check them out. Yeah, you you killed a velvet deer without a velvet season.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:35

All right, all right. So I I my last question, and these guys may have another one, but my the last one I've got you you mentioned coats, and I I obviously they're a problem. But uh my last question, I want to ask, where do you see you've seen it 1993, you dropped, you parachuted in here, managing these deer for a long time, 30 years. Where do you what do you see the next 20, 25 years looking like? I have that written down. You you cheated on me. You said I can't read your right. Your your feet smell so bad. I can't my eyes are water and I can't read your right number.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:10

I see you know it it uh as sad as it is to say, it it it really depends on what happens with CWD in different parts of the state because it it it can it's definitely gonna be or can be uh something that's gonna influence whether the people keep deer hunting or not in certain areas. That's that's kind of a that's been a a potential issue that's kind of dangled out there. Uh what happens if CWD shows up on on on say timber company properties. Are they going to continue to to lease that land for hunters to kill deer and consume deer?

SPEAKER_07 1:23:49

I'm I'm expecting you to say we're gonna need to shoot a lot of deer. Well, i it's uh be more diligent at managing.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:00

And that's you can't not shoot 'em and because it becomes an issue. So if people if people regardless of what the the reason is, if if hunting participation starts tailing off, uh of course it's gonna become an issue in a lot of areas with with overpopulation or deer too many deer uh for for the situation. So uh the ones that that are still hunting are are likely gonna have to to keep killing and killing more deer just to just to tread water. But uh hopefully that's a long ways off. Uh if and and maybe and won't show up. But it's uh you know, the the days of of of good deer, uh growing big deer, it's it's here, it's always gonna be here as long as people have an interest and the and the the will to to do what they need to do uh to grow them. It's uh they're deer everywhere, the potential's there. Uh it's just a matter of of uh putting in the effort and and doing what needs to be done.

SPEAKER_08 1:24:59

I mean the good old days are right now. Yeah, you know. See that going away. We've been fascinated with them for eon. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:07

Look, let's uh let we're writing this thing down. I'm gonna turn it over to Mitchell. We've got a trivia question specifically for you. Uh we'll have a little fun here. Um trivia is brought to you by the peanut patch, Mac. I know you don't get to eat them. No, but Mac's allergic to peanuts. They do look good. They are they are delicious.

SPEAKER_08 1:25:25

Oh, by the way, I cleaned off all the handles in the kitchen uh the other day and the doorknobs just to keep peanut juice off of them.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:34

You like peanuts? Yes. Boiled peanuts?

SPEAKER_05 1:25:37

They are I'm from Panhandle, Florida.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:39

Yeah, you do. Yeah, you do. You grew up around them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:42

All right, Mitchell. Well, our trivia question winner is at Pearl River Productions. What do you win?

SPEAKER_07 1:25:48

Uh well he won some of these bones uh slippers for uh they're fur-lined or fleece lined for where Toxie's got a pair of them.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:57

I complained enough they'd let me have a pair of them.

SPEAKER_07 1:26:01

It's extremely comfortable. They're in they're in bottom land, they're they're fantastic. Hey, can I borrow your pair for a couple days, Bobby? Uh you know what? No. I don't want your foot anywhere near anything I got.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:13

Well, the trivia trivia question is in Alabama, has there ever been a fallow deer herd?

SPEAKER_05 1:26:21

Yeah, yeah, there was uh Toxie mentioned Miller's Ferry earlier. The Henderson family had some captive fallow deer back back in the early 1900s, I think it was, and those those uh they escaped or the fence was damaged and and they expanded and and they were actually in parts of Moringo and Dallas County there for a while. I think the look at the old old records, they they estimate there was 200 plus you know, fallow deer at the time. But the last time I asked uh one of the Henderson's about it, they were still seeing some, uh, but they weren't seeing any uh of the males, so they you know it was just inevitable that they were gonna die out. But you know, I on the on the kind of along those lines, there's uh we haven't talked about captive deer, but uh you know, fallow deer are pretty popular with with the captive deer crowd. And there's uh there's some small populations of of them around that that escape from from deer breeders and they're are st are free range. Um there was a population around just uh outside Demopolis that was on the Demopolis WMA and their areas about that there are probably still a few of them there. Um and so you're you're liable to see them anywhere. But but historically the there was that population around Miller's Ferry.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:44

Yeah, I actually hunted down there and saw some. Yeah, well you so you I didn't see a bug, but I saw them running and they run like it was really weird. They run like mule deer where they just all kind of bounce boom, boom, bouncing.

SPEAKER_07 1:27:55

Yeah, so really odd. You got the question right. I was aware of the Wilcox population, but when I Googled it just to verify this, it said in 1945, 1925, excuse me, 1925, that the state of Alabama released some in Bankhead and they didn't last but about four years.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:12

Probably did. Uh there was a lot of things done. They I think they they may have released some some milk up there too.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:17

They couldn't I mean when they had them in Wilcox Candy, their deer population wasn't quite so high. White tails. I think they said they just can't compete with the whitetails for food. Like, probably.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:27

It's probably I mean they're adaptable. They're not in their their natural habitat, so I'm sure that has an effect on on how well they're cool animal, though.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:36

They're good to eat. Well, there was a there was a red deer population in that's uh that same source over around the Demopolis, but I think it's been uh dealt with. But it was like 30 plus of them roaming around over there.

SPEAKER_07 1:28:47

Well, Chris, you're an interesting guy. I think we could sit here and talk all day, listen to your story. He's an historian, which is awesome. Yeah. Chris, uh, we we just appreciate all the effort that you your career, what the what you have done, and you you know, you you've your your reputation perceived you when we started talking about having you up here.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:05

I've enjoyed it. Uh, you know, anytime y'all come up with some need for some old guy that used to do stuff, uh let me know.

SPEAKER_07 1:29:12

Well, Chris, thanks for coming over.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:14

Oh, you're welcome.

SPEAKER_07 1:29:15

And uh we we've we've really enjoyed it. Does anybody else at Mike, you got anything we need to bring up or Dudley? Uh uh Mitch, I'm gonna look over at you or Mitch.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:22

I guess so. I got I do have one other question. Okay. Did we turn the air conditioner vent off in here?

SPEAKER_07 1:29:29

And with Dudley's feet, it's just compounding. I'm again last week.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:38

I wasn't gonna say that.

SPEAKER_08 1:29:39

I gotta work on the comeback, Bobby.

SPEAKER_07 1:29:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:41

I'm glistening.

SPEAKER_07 1:29:43

All right, you can mark all that up. This has been fun. Say goodbye, Dudley.

SPEAKER_08 1:29:48

Goodbye, Dudley. Get us out of here, Mitchell.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:52

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the Game Keeper Podcast. And be sure to tune in again. Subscribe to Game Keeper Farming for Wildlife magazine, and don't miss the Monty Opportunities Festival of Dirt podcast with my good buddy, Ronnie Coder.