EP:419 | Improving Your Turkey Gun With Rob Roberts

On this episode we are joined by legendary gunsmith Rob Roberts to discuss shotgun performance and specifically turkey guns. Rob has years of experience improving how shotguns perform and always has something interesting to explain. We discuss forcing cones, TSS and chokes, the sub-gauges and much more.

 Listen, Learn and Enjoy.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I've just focused for welcome to Gamekeeper Five Kids. If you want to learn more about farming for wildlife and habitat management, you are in the right place. Join the GameCeeper Crew direct from Auto Habitat Studios Wildlife and Habitat Management. Of course, there's no telling what you'll learn, but I'm going to tell you.

SPEAKER_04 0:26

We're live in three, two, one.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to be talking about guns today, specifically turkey guns. Laney and the our guest knows it.

SPEAKER_05 0:37

He knows it. Just talking before we came on, I was like, I was writing stuff down like I never thought about that. And he customizes some guns. They were beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

I listened to him for five minutes and I've got more questions written down than any time on a podcast already. I don't know about that, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

Yeah, but you write down a lot. You've got a lot.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

I never write anything down until we get started. I never come in here before and have them like this. All right, dude. All right.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

Well, let's get uh do you ever get tired of being right?

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

It wears me out. All right, let's get our guest introduced. We've got Mr. Rob Roberts. You guys uh may remember years ago, there was uh a few years ago, there was uh there's been several guns auctioned off and that he's customized and tricked out. He's well, when he works on a gun, it just it just it's amazing what he can do with it. No doubt.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

They were saying he's forgotten more about them than we'll ever know.

SPEAKER_03 1:31

Yeah, Rob, thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Well, I appreciate it. That's uh that's uh you're really blowing hard on somebody there that really, really is not that smart. Okay, I'm really pretty stupid.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

Well, we've got a lot of questions for you about you know, turkey guns. You know, I'm I'm gonna start off. It is so important to have something that you're confident in. And uh, you know, a gun, you may find one and it la you you hunt your whole life with it, or you may be one of these guys that every few years you get you a new one. But having confidence in your gun is so important.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Yeah, but having confidence because you are prepared and you went through all those things that make not just because you know you just pulled it out of thin air. There's make yourself confident because of the reasons it performs for you.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

And you can spend a little time with your gun at a range and you can become confident. Yeah, a little bit goes a long way. Yeah, yeah. Um he's got he's already said so much, I just want to listen.

SPEAKER_03 2:28

So, Rob, let's get started. What do you say? What can a guy do? Let's just say an average guy's got a got a shotgun and he's turkey hunting. What can he do to it to help improve its performance just right off the bat?

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Well, you know, the a lot of the things that we do is a lot of aesthetics where it's coming in and you're making them really pretty and you're putting all the camos and the seracotes and all the different colors. That's not really helping. There's there's a lot of things that some of the newer guns are starting to build, like the forcing cones and stuff like that, that we take out. And it's really a simple process. We we'll take them out, take those guns out, we'll match them up with the chokes and the load they like, and there you go. Uh, probably one of the biggest things a guy should do before he ever goes out is um, you know, you talk about building confidence in these guns. Uh the first thing is when you get one, take it out and shoot it. See where that point of impact is from the very get-go. Because a lot of times, you know, shotguns don't shoot straight. Um, no matter how much you paid for it, if it don't fit you and it don't shoot straight, um, a lot of people lose confidence right off. And then that gun, you know, they might hunt with it one time or miss something with it, and it's like, you know, that's that's that's a pile of crap. That gun's no good. It's this. And and so they might as well just throw it away and start over. But the best way to do is start from the get-go, find out, make the gun, make the gun fit you, make it shoot where it's supposed to be, and then uh you're that's over half the battle right there. And after that, your confidence will come because you know, you can take that same gun duck hunting that you're going turkey hunting with or dual dove hunting with, you know. Um, I dove hunt a lot of times. I shoot a lot of you know, 20 gauge on turkeys, and so when I'm dove hunting, it's either 28 or 20, but I'll use that same turkey gun, different choke, of course, and go out there and dove hunt with it. And so that that just keeps, like you said, building competence with the guns um very, very important.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

So let me let me, I was I had that written down before you get off this topic is what to do if you have a gun, just a standard sight, you know, you know, vent rib looking down the barrel, old school. Because still people hunt like that. Maybe there's a red dot down there, just a you know, a bead. And it, you know, I'm assuming you're gonna tell us, get really steady, get like a sled or something, sandbag or something, so you know for sure shoot it at pretty close distance to BB sure, and it's clearly off a little left, right, up, down. What do you do about that? I know if you have the the lighted red dot, you can move that thing. But on a standard gun, do you have to take it to a gunsmith to move that?

SPEAKER_02 5:03

Oh. No, and and really it's it's really a lot more simple. Um red dots are, you know, you're done at that point, regardless of what it is. You side in a red dot, um, well, it's always going to work. But for the guys that don't, which, you know, quite frankly, I I don't. I I've not. I'm still old school. I'm 300 years old, you know. And so when I go out, the best way to check the point of impact on a gun is to put up like a large sheet of paper or piece of cardboard or side of something your neighbor's house that you don't like. But you want about a four by four sheet of paper, put you a bullseye in the middle of it, and then you don't even have to start off with turkey loads. Just take three dove loads or whatever the case may be, get your tight choke, and you step off about 27, 30 paces. You know, it's not an exact science on that day, but you need it out there at least 27, 30 yards worth. And um, instead of putting it in the sleds and the benches and stuff like that, I'd rather, I mean, when I want to check the point impact, put it to your shoulder, you know, both eyes open like you should shoot a gun, pull up at the dot and go boom, now let off, pick the gun back up, pull back to the same dot, boom. Do that three times, same target, same everything. Then walk down, and what you're gonna notice is now you're getting that gun to fit you. And so when you walk down there, you're seeing where the bulk is, and it's like, oh, great, my gun shoots, you know, six, eight inches left or higher, whatever the case may be. Then you can work on it. Some of the newer guns out there, you know, they everything's synthetic nowadays. The old days you could cut, cut the stocks off, they'd be wood, and you can cut them off, put a new recoil pad, shorten it up, lengthen it, move it, whatever the case may be. Uh, nowadays it's all about the shims. You know, you can change shims, and you know, every once in a while, some guys um, you know, it's just not gonna fit. You know, if you got, especially um young kids, ladies, stuff like that, they're they're always hard to fit guns for because, you know, they're short length of pulls or whatever the case is there on them. But um getting back to the point of impact, once you once you see where your point of impact is, you can kind of cure it there. And we always tell them, don't waste these high dollar turkey loads right off. You know, um once you once you get past that and you get that point of impact right, if it's a gun that's way off, then 100% you better put a red dot on there and and go from there. Yeah, once you get out there and you shoot it off your shoulder, you kind of see that the gun's shooting high, low, um, you can change that with your shims. You know, uh usually the bigger number on the shim or uh, you know, is the more drop. And so um you kind of just, you know, once once you get it set up, then come back, save your turkey loads, now come back, maybe practice a couple times sitting on your butt, you know, shooting like you would at a turkey type deal, and then um then work into, you know, later on you can get to the bench and all. But getting the point of impact is really crucial from the get-go, and it's really easier to make the gun fit you more than where the gun shoots when you're looking down the rib. You know, that's that they don't always shoot straight from a bench.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

So it's what you gathered from you Yeah, it makes a ton of sense, but I thought I gathered from what you said that if you have one that is consistently off a little bit and you think you still want to shoot it, the best cure would be the red dot.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, on a turkey gun especially. Yeah. Because with a turkey gun, the reason the point of impact, first off, you're shooting at pretty much a silhouette head there, you know. But uh a turkey gun, you're constricting the choke tube down so tight, so you're putting up really tight patterns, and the tighter it comes, the more noticeable the point of impact is. You know, a lot of guys go out there, if you're shooting a skeet choke or skeet gun, it's throwing a warst tub pattern out there and people hit everything. But now once you constrict it down to turkey stuff and you're super duper tight, now you really notice that, you know, hey, my gun's shooting six inches high or low or to the left or the right, it really comes into play on that. And if you've got a situation where it's like, this is all I can do to this gun, there's no more I can do as far as making it fit me. But I'm shooting six inches left and four inches high, that red dot will cure it every time. Because then you can move it on, you can move it up to where it needs to be, and um, you know, that that takes care of it in a nutshell right there, the red dots, too, no doubt.

SPEAKER_05 9:33

And those to those shims, uh, we we just uh recently started shooting some retays uh or retay. How do we say it, I don't know. But it can't, I didn't know what that's what those shims were for. And so do those actually those go between the refit receiver and the stock?

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Yes. What you'll do, those Benelli, Beretta, all those guys like that are putting Winchester and Live, all those guys are putting the same thing. They'll come with uh two, you know, there's two shims. One will go between the stock and the receiver, and one will go up inside the stock. And the truth of the matter is the little plastic one that goes between the uh stock and receiver is just kind of filling the void. The the metal one that's going up in the stock is the one that's actually changing it. So if you're running um, for example, if it's A, B, C, D or 50, 55, 60, 65, it's kind of in that deal. So A and 50 B in your high one. So if your gun's shooting low to raise it, you'll go to more of like the A. A lot of those guns from the get-go will be right in the middle. They'll have a B shim in them. So if if you went out there and you shot that gun and it was shooting high, which normally with me, with way my body is or whatever, uh, I always have to drop them. I have to drop that stock. So um you can walk out there and um, okay, it shot high. I'm gonna drop mine down. I'm gonna put the C or the D shim in it, or 65 if they, you know, if it's a number. And so what it does, it'll drop the stock, which in reality is dropping the front of the gun down, so you're dropping the point of impact with it. So that's those those are really handy. And and um you shot as much of them as I do, and over the deal. I know exactly when I get my gun, the first thing I do is I go drop it, because that that's just the way it's gonna fit me.

SPEAKER_03 11:19

That's a mutate, you know, the today's gun manufacturers are have really keyed in on improving the product.

SPEAKER_05 11:26

Yeah, it's come a long way since the old eight seven. Customizing it too. Lady, I don't even think you have a bead on the end of your uh I do have a bead on the end of my and I and I, you know, just old school down the barrel, I mean down the down the rib, uh, you know, grew up that way. But yeah, the technology that's coming around, you can really dial these things in. I mean, I just got fortunate enough that I guess mine matched up with me uh from a young age.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

So, yeah, the the lesson is just still the com he he talked about it a couple times before we started keeping common sense in play at all times, regardless of the advances in technology. So, and bragging on someone who deserves to be bragging on, my daddy. He shot an old I mean, that thing had like four or five serial numbers on it. It was an old, old Model 12, Winchester. 32-inch barrel, no vent rib or nothing, just one little metal bead, you couldn't even really see it down the end of the barrel. From I guess 44 when he killed his first one, till like 67 when he first took me. It was the first time he ever used like a Remy Ton three-inch magnum that just came out, 1100. But so from that, say 20-something years, and you know, he didn't kill one every single year, just about though. He never missed a turkey ever for 20-something straight years with that gun. And he was shooting two and three-quarter inch six shot, but he never shot one that wasn't 25 yards, give or take a few.

SPEAKER_03 12:53

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

And my point is, just like same same conversation as you know, modern archery and shooting a longbow. It's like what distance are you consistently proficient in that you know? And if if it's you know, with the boat, if it's just 10 yards, don't shoot over 10 yards. Yeah, and with the gun, it's the same thing. Just warning everybody, just be careful we don't stretch it too far. We did have that conversation.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

No, I I agree. Like the TSS, when you talk about stretching it, TSS is really taking over. But whether you're using ours or his or theirs or whoever it is, um, one thing you might need to do is once you find that load that's shooting in your gun this year with TSS, you better load up on TSS because next year it's not going to be good. I I already know that from the big standpoint of uh the metals and everything else. What you're paying for TSS this year will probably be twice that much next year. Well, one thing that you guys can do, you know, everybody does this, and and like I said, I always tell them, make sure your gun's unloaded. Go in, go into the bathroom or go into somewhere in, you know, where you can got a big full mirror. And so you're gonna take this gun, you're gonna mount it and point it into the mirror like you're shooting at your like your own face in the mirror. And what you should see is the pupil of your eye in a perfect world, the pupil of your eye should go right down the rib, into the mirror, back down to the you know, the bead, right back down to the pupil of your eye. It should just you should be just that perfect. Now, most people don't get that, but if if you can get into that, that'll tell you right then what to do or what not to do. Um that'll tell you, for example, if it looks like a ski ramp, you can see all the rib, you know that gun's too high, it's time to drop the shims in that stock. Go to your C, D, or 60, 65 shim, you know, whether it's got numbers or or um a letter, you'll drop your stock, do it again, you'll notice that now you may be on. So that's just one trick right off. Uh looking at it, mounting the gun. A lot of people will just they'll mount the gun with their eyes closed and then open their eyes and see exactly where they're at. But you can you can pretty much fit a gun to yourself in a mirror doing this. And so that that that's real helpful, you know, to go with the talking about earlier.

SPEAKER_05 15:16

Yeah. Almost like a little bore sighting actions game.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

So, hey, uh what's what's your recommendation like what's what's what's the best distance to sight or or to pattern um your turkey gun? And what I'm getting at is like what distance to maximize like the the up and down, you know, the rising and the fall, you know, is that like 20, 25, 30, somewhere in there, you know, the further I feel like the further out I kind of sighted in for the less it'll drop further out. So what would you recommend as far as a distance to kind of sight in the up and down part of your pattern?

SPEAKER_02 15:59

Well, if you're if you're um, you know, everybody patterns guns, it's just uh 40 yards has always been the norm in Turkey. I mean, it's just because everybody talks, so comparing apples to apples, everything was 40 yards. Okay. But in reality, especially like if you're putting a red dot or something to that effect on it, I would definitely go into what we talked about earlier. Somewhere around that 2730, you know, 27 to 30 yards. I think uh I think 30 yards is is really perfect for that. Um, you know, like I said, we we pattern these guns out there as far as 75 yards to make sure what they're doing. That's not where you need to be shooting at, you know, uh you don't need to be shooting at anything out there with a shotgun at 75 yards. Um you need to be able to, if if you're at the 30, 35 yards somewhere in that neighborhood right there, your perfect spot on, that's going to allow you to still have good clean shots at 25 yards if one's up close, and if one's out there and you misjudge the distance and it's 40, 45 yards, you know. Um that's a part of that TSS thing that I always said was good. It's not so that you go out and you're trying to shoot them farther, but if you're in a field somewhere up in Kansas or Nebraska or somewhere like that, and and you're judging that turkey, he's there and he's strutting back and forth, and you'd say, Oh, he's he's he's 30, 35 yards, and you shoot and he's 45-50, um, you know, you messed up, you still took the shot. But with uh the TSS and stuff, you're still getting a clean kill. And so to answer your question on that distance, we do everything. I always like to side them in at 30 and then go out at 40 and see exactly fine-tune it maybe at 40. So um you make sure that it it is on at 40, uh, which is gonna be your happy distance. And then when you got a bird in close, it's not gonna be that, you know, we are talking shotgun velocities, so even up close, you just better be on it.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

But yeah, I'm just saying, I'm just wondering like so, like it happens like 10 yards, and you've got it kind of centered at the 30, 40 yard range. Am I gonna be a little bit high or something or a little bit low? What would happen at 10 yards if I had it kind of not really?

SPEAKER_02 18:18

I always tell just like my grandkids, I tell them shoot for the bow tie. And um, you know, they you come down there and shoot them right there at the water, and I hit them in the bow tie. If you're a little high, you're still in, you're still in the neck and face.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

So you're gonna be able to do that. That's something that's not a gun thing, but I'm a big, big proponent of doing this for a lifetime. Is and I've learned the hard way, it's it is almost every turkey I miss, unless I shoot a vine or tree or something, is sideways to me. And the the ones looking right at me or facing me, in a strut or not, seem to be so much more forgiving shots for whatever reason. And I know for for that's just one of those things that goes along with the pattern of the gun or whatnot, you got so much more, even in on the up and down being off. But especially that head moving, which can happen in the blink of an eye before, you know, just like a deer duck in an arrow. And if you're if he moves it, it's gonna be back and forth. Right. And if he's looking at you, you still got him dead right. So if you're looking at him sideways and he moves that head right when you shoot, you can totally miss him. That's just a small thing to think about if you can. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:24

And on distance too, I I I've never really thought about this till y'all were just discussing this. Um, is is are the shotgun loads like a a rifle bullet in the fact that like if you are shooting a red dot, you've got this line of sight and and the pattern would stray up and stray down from there? Or is it more just a stray and fall off?

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Well, a lot of times it's due to the wads, what you know, whatever the wad design, some do, you know, some of those, and especially on the turkey side, because they're wanting everything to be so-so tight, you know, everything's got to be so-so tight, which in reality can cause lots of problems, lots of missing on birds that are up close. And um, and that's that's um, I think as far as the red dot goes, I think you're still all right. It's where your point of aim is going to be. And and like I said, I I call it the bow tie there, but if you're pulling down into the wattles on that, you're gonna get clean kills because just like you said a while ago, that that head can move. Uh if they're looking straight onto you, it's not so bad. But if they're from the side, they'll do uh that snake head, you know, they'll go out and that head'll go up back. I mean, it'll just boom, boom, you know, and then you can miss real quick. But if you're pulling it down into where the wattle part is, you're gonna get clean kills with it. Uh you're you're you know, that part don't move as much as like the actual head will. So uh no, I th I think you're still good. I mean, um pretty much with any of these shells today, um, they are tight. You better be on them, but uh uh no, you're still good.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

So, yeah, on that exact topic, it seems to me I hear of more and more people, and actually I did this with Daddy's last couple of years, is not shooting a super tight pattern, especially with TSS. And I hear more and more people are shooting, you know, even like an improved modified or something, maybe a modified. But uh That's what I'm doing with that. Yeah, or you know, just the kind of the full choke that came on it. Uh of course every pattern's different. You'd tell us to be sure, and and I I'm a big fan of even distribution of the shot, almost as big as I am, you know, how tight it is. Um so tell us, give me some wisdom because I may be off on some of that.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

No, you're uh that's that's one thing we did. When we started this years ago, we'd come up with uh there was a guy um in Oklahoma at the time, he's Missouri now, but he had come up with the pattern machines that was going on, and he was using these machines differently than what we do. Um I was watching him, I was at uh sporting clays down in uh Houston, Texas, down here, and uh We were watching this guy. He had this machine, and he was showing uh how even the patterns were by using this load or that load. And this machine was given that. And so I'm watching this thing, and a couple years later, I end up buying this machine from him to do different what we want. And now we've actually it's it's it's blossomed into um we got four of these machines. But the um the kicker to it is that this is not a word, but I use it all the time, the evenness. That's an Arkansas word. Absolutely. I get it. But the evenness of it all. So you don't want all your pellets to be clumped up. You know, years ago the Turkey Federation would have their silhouette chute out there, and they'd come out and it was like the the turkey chute. You guys all remember all that. And they were always like, Why do you never go to that? I said, Because I don't believe in putting all your pellets in a three-inch circle. That that's not that's not killing a turkey, you know. If if at 40 yards, or you know, if we're gonna start with 40 yards, and we look down there and we've got a pattern that's say 20 inches, 24 inches in diameter, and it's just perfect even, that if that turkey sticks his head, so to speak, in that 20, 24-inch circle, he's not escaping. That's the perfect pattern. The perfect patterns is not how many pellets you got in here or that. Uh the even rating on that is the perfect pattern. And um, what you want to be able to do, and same thing with ducks or anything else that you're after, if you're throwing a 20, 24-inch pattern out there, that uh anything that's flying, walking, looking at it, um, you want it to be, we're in we're into the kill business. You know, it's like we want clean, clean kills. You know, and uh, you know, we're in a world today where you're not supposed to say those kind of words. But that's what we want because you to me you owe it to the animal. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

If you're gonna take this animal, do it and do it right.

SPEAKER_02 23:53

If you're shooting at me, I don't want to be wounded. I want you to smoke me. I want you to take me out, you know. And that that's that's the same thing you need to do, whether it's turkey, duck, deer, whatever you're doing. Whatever you're doing. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

So let me ask this. So if a guy these new TSS loads are so popular, do they like the really tight restriction, or are you better to back off, like Tysi was saying?

SPEAKER_02 24:19

Actually, they start off, everybody wanted to go um more open. I don't, I tighten them. I I run them down tight, especially if you're shooting like straight nines. I personally like this year, we've got our own Rob Roberts Raptor load coming out. They're gonna show at the NWTF through Federal. And um uh they let me help design and put what this and that. And what I wanted is I wanted uh we're gonna do 12 gauge and 20 gauge this year. And the 12 gauge we're gonna have in straight sevens, and then also another one in straight nines, and the same thing on 20 gauge. Now, I'm the guy that I like the straight sevens. I like the kill power. I like that um, you know, like I said, I don't want to wound nothing. And um, and uh the straight sevens, once you get them to, you know, a lot of people said, well, you're gonna have to open that choke. And what we find is not necessarily this TSS, if it's, you know, the original, you had to open it because everybody was experimenting with it as I did. I was making my own loads and everything like that. And a lot of times I found out that it was a little more open than what I would normally shoot for copper plated lead or heavy shot. And so um, not the case anymore. I I shoot it just like uh our constrictions will we'll go down just um our raptor chokes, for example. Uh, we've got them now, and it's a it's a new design, it's got a cut. This this thing really does work, and I'm not a guy that won't sit here and blow and tell you I've got the best thing in the world. I I don't ever want to come off like that. But um this one is it. This is a lot of years went into this choke, and uh there's a lot of science into it compared to just building a hole on the end of your shotgun. But but with that said, um we found that it was basically on these different wads and everything come up. We put a cut in there that actually just not up, not a wad stripper, but just a cut that just gives enough tug that allows all that shot to get out of the cup um on these loads. And um we're finding that yes, they're they are tight, but at the same thing, it takes me right back to what we're after. We're after 40 yards, we're wanting about a 24-inch complete circle where there's no distortion, no pellets going in the same hole. We we want to see it a complete, even rating on it, and so uh that that's the perfect world on it. And and you're gonna kill with that.

SPEAKER_05 26:40

So the choke is actually making the shot leave the wadding earlier.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Just a tug. Yes, uh, what we did, it's a tulip cut that we come up. You know, I I studied some of this stuff back uh back even in the 1800s on people that were taking choke tubes and um or even the end of the barrel, but choke tube preferably before you go to screwing up your barrels. But uh scuff choke, you know, we've had there was a there was a couple there was a company out there, and I'm not gonna go into bashing other people's names or anything like this, and this was actually a shell guys that were going in telling people not to buy our chokes because inside our choke tubes they were rough, and these other people were building smoother chokes. And what what that person didn't realize was, and I went, I'm not getting a fight with him, but uh what he didn't realize is ours are on the inside, we're rough for a reason. Because you we had an experiment, and I had a couple guys with me, and I said, All right, let's let's we're gonna experiment here, we're gonna try this. We took, and like I said, we have the pattern machines and stuff that we can shoot in and get the exact percentages of everything we're shooting. So we took a box of shells and we walk out there. So we're, you know, that's as close as you can get for apples to apples. We took a gun, and at the time, and actually it was a Benelli shotgun at the time with factory choke tube in it, and said, um, okay, shoot 10 shots. We had a complete average of exactly how many pellets per shot, what that average came to inside a 10-inch, 20-inch, and 30-inch circle. Said, all right, now come in. I took that exact choke tube out of that gun, took a rat tail file and had a guy just, I said, just go crazy. Just scuff everything you can possibly do under. He said, What are you doing? Are you nuts? And I said, Yeah, I'm nuts, but go ahead, let's do it anyway. And so he took it out there and he scuffed it up and he did this and that. And he goes, I'm not, I'm not following this at all. I said, Okay, now put it back in the gun, shoot 10 more shots. With that, we jumped up 10.1% better by doing that. And he's like, and and this guy was smart, so he turns around and goes, Okay, I see that. But if I'm using an improved cylinder and I want 10% tighter patterns, then all I gotta do is go to a modified choke. I said, true. Here's my argument. If your gun, for example, whichever you're shooting out there, and you go out there and it's a 12 gauge and you're shooting uh, let's say a 655 constriction choke, it don't like the 660, it don't like a 650, your gun really likes a 655 choke. He said, Okay. I said, now add 10% to density on that. He goes, okay, I got it. So what we've done with our choke tubes is we went and went down the bases per gun. So we're not telling you anymore it's a 650, a 655, 60. We're not going there. We're going to each particular gun that we've gone through. So if you're shooting uh, let's say a Browning with a bigger bore, or you're shooting a uh Remington or Beretta with mid-sized bore, or you got a Benelli with a small bore, um, we're not telling you what constriction we're using. We're building a choke and the constriction that we like, that we've used with this, that we've gone out and patterned over and over and over to say, here's where it's at. And that's what's really working out on these raptor chokes, is is is just that. We try to take the guesswork out of it for the guy that's you know going back and forth and let him worry about, hey, where's the turkeys at? Where I need to go roost the burger, I need to go do that. And so kind of going back to the same thing that you guys talked about earlier with your confidence. And so that that whole story kind of bringing it around to to kind of build a make sure it was right, and once you see it, then you got the confidence for the you're you're done. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_03 30:38

So can you spend a little time explaining the forcing cone and what it is that that needs, in your opinion, needs to be done to a gun? What are you lengthening that forcing cone or right and why isn't why are in the factories doing this?

SPEAKER_02 30:53

Yes. Well, what you're finding is most of your European model guns still have force cones. Even your high dollar Prazies and Craig Offs and stuff like that, they still have those. Um, a lot of your American-made guns now, you know, um, even your, I guess Japan, as far as that goes, because like your Brownings, um, like a Browning gun, they're coming with the force and cones gone, gone. And so are a lot of the Remintons. Um, those guns, they're actually taking them out from the factory. And I know a lot of times what they were doing is they were making it uh two and three-quarter, uh, three-inch and three and a half inch barrel. And so by cutting that all out, they could shoot, use that same barrel accordingly on whichever one of those guns. But um what the Europeans for years they weren't using the wadding like we do. You know, we're using plastic wads now that it you don't need a forcing cone. In the earlier days, they had a forcing cone in there because what it was, they were using like cardboard or paper wads. And so with that, they had to have the forcing cone, which is right past the chamber inside your barrel. And what it was doing, it was kind of forming it, it was squeezing it together, forming it to let your board take over and go. Well, we're in modern times where you know most of the shot shells and everything that we're using now is gonna have plastic wads in it. So with that being said, we we use our we use our own reamers. I mean, uh, we have them built to our specs, which they're gonna go in and they're cutting these, you know, like three and a half inches in order to to lengthen it, is what you're calling it, because you're kind of you're tapering it into the barrel, so to speak, and then polishing it back. So it's not, it's actually cutting like you know, cutting it out, but you're you're you're doing it at a taper that goes right into your bore. So it just makes it a smooth, uh, a smooth transition from the chamber, your gun goes off, you've got a smooth transition now into the bore of the gun, and then let your choke tube take over. Where without it, you were getting some distortion. You actually were getting some back pressure. So a lot of people will notice that there'll be a little bit of felt recoil less by doing the forcing cones because you're taking some of that back pressure off your shoulder and putting it going out the other end of the barrel. So you gain a little velocity, nothing to ride home about. But uh it's actually a win-win situation. It it really is. And uh every once in a blue moon, somebody will call and say, you know, I did it to my gun, and it um it didn't do as good. Well, you know, I'm not gonna sit and argue with that guy because he's out there playing with his gun, but uh, we don't see that ever to be the case. But um and it and it does like your 20-gauge stuff and your smaller board 12 gauges, it works way better than your big board, like a 10-gauge or even some of those new 835 barrels, you know, a Mossberg, it's got the great big 10-gauge boards on a 12-gauge gun. Um, it don't help that one as much as it would your, you know, 20-gauge. Yeah, I think you guys are saying you're shooting the retays and all that. Um, those have small boards, forcing cones help them a lot more.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

So I I can I can switch gears on something I think is a lot less talked about. That I mean, you know, the performance of the gun and the pattern and height, you know, all of that is probably, you know, especially, you know, that it's on. Um but then the other thing's been occurring to me more as I get a little older and I'm a little less steady, it's triggers. And so I actually brought this up. One of my close friends shoots competitively, you know, ski and travel. Um whatever all the different what's what's the boarding class. Yeah, but there's another one, the new electronic one that's uh anyway. And I brought it up to him. It's like especially when Daddy, when Daddy got old, that um he just he missed turkeys because it it was took him so much to pull the trigger, he jerked. Then I realized these triggers are so hard to pull the jerk. So this last year did he kill this miracle miracle turkey. I mean, it was the most miracle thing I've ever seen in my all my years of hunting. I took it to a friend of ours that is a actually a renowned lifetime uh in the Hall of Fame for skeet shooting. And he is a gun-gun expert here, and he worked that thing down to where it was way, way less and really smooth and crisp, but much easier to pull the night before we took him, and he'd kill that turkey. And he was so feeble he could barely have enough strength to even pull the trigger. I feel like, you know, I brought this up to my buddy. He said, Oh my gosh, all those guys have specialized triggers on the skeet gun and stuff, but you know, and so that's something I thought of. I think it would help me a lot to get a better trigger than the one that comes from the factory, because I realize the the shotgun companies have to be very careful about shotguns having you know too light of a trigger and all. Get that totally. But a a really not not a hair trigger at all, but something cleaner and crisp and lighter, I think would help me on some of the misses personally. So come in on triggers.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

Okay. Yes, uh, what you'll do is just like, for example, a right-handed um shooter and he's got one of these, and I'm telling you, shotgun triggers, uh, they have to do it for liability reasons, but they're pretty, they're pretty tough. You know, I mean, you're getting six, eight-pound pull triggers, that's that's pretty tough. Yes. So if you've got a bird out there, now we've already talked about how we got this gun and it's shooting extremely tight. We got a bird that walks in here at 10, 15 yards, you've got to really be on him. Now you've got a really tough trigger to pull. When you pull, and let's say you're a right-handed shooter, you're gonna pull hard enough that you're actually gonna miss this bird to the right because you're pulling the whole front of the barrel by totally.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

And so what we've always done on triggers, and and we we basically do the semi-autos, you know. Uh, once you get into uh your over and unders, and like you said, some of your uh sporting clays guys, your feet test, skeet, and all that kind of stuff, on that that's a whole different trigger in itself.

SPEAKER_06 39:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

But like on all your auto loaders and stuff like that, more of our hunting style guns, what we do is we take these triggers down, we try to get them somewhere between three and a half and three and a quarter and three quarter pound pull and try to remove the creep. Now, and and I'm not saying this to to bat badger anybody, you know, whether it be Browning, Beretta, that like let's say a Winchester Super X4, that's a gas operated gun. Uh, we're gonna take that trigger. That's one that we can make super crisp. We'll take it down to three and a half pound pull and take the creep out of it. Now let's uh let's jump over to your inertia guns, like a Benelli or something to that effect. Uh, we usually will take those down to about three and three-quarter pull, and you have to leave a little creep in them because of the inertia. If a gas gun, you can take pretty much all of it out. With the inertia gun, you got to leave some or it'll double fire. And that's the last thing you want to do is just jump up out of a duck blind or something like that, or even on a turkey and go, bum, bum, boom. You know, I mean, it's kind of embarrassing.

SPEAKER_06 40:06

And uh dangerous enough.

SPEAKER_02 40:09

And normally, I don't think there's uh any of them out there that has right now that you can just buy, you know, say for a rifle, you want to turn around and you want to buy uh, you know, Joe Blows, you know, without mentioning names and all that stuff, but you can buy a trigger group for your Remington 700 or or whatever. Uh with shotguns, it's not necessarily the case. Uh normally you're going to have to have somebody on the gunsmith side of things, um, you know, like I said, we take them out, we we actually machine the sears down and everything, and and um even at that point, um we play, measure, go back and forth. It takes, you know, it takes a little bit. But but I do agree, and we've been doing them for years, and I absolutely on my guns, I do the same thing because uh if a trigger is good and crisp, what uh what they'll normally do is when they pull up and go and you're ready to fire, and uh whether it be a like I said, duck flying or a turkey, this when you pull up, you look at it, you pull the trigger, it went off before you had time to flinch or hesitate. Um, you're making more kills. Your shots are good. And like I said, on a shotgun, it's not a hair trigger, like you know, a lot of rifles, a lot of guys want them under a pound. Um, I particularly will take my rifle, all my rifle stuff, and I do a lot of long-range stuff, and and um I really have a passion on rifles. But with that being said, I want two-pound triggers. I don't want it going off before I know it's going off. And um, and with shotguns, three and a half to three and three quarters, somewhere in there, that's usually the perfect poundage for for shotguns.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Awesome. And I think it'll s for me too, you're shaking like a leaf. You're out of breath, maybe. You you know, you had to climb a hill real quick because you knew it was coming. You know, all those things happen, or especially like you said, if I'm I shoot left-handed, if I've got to push the gun into my shoulder to the left more, it is way more likely to jerk back and miss to the back to the right when I pull the trigger, especially if it's hard to pull the trigger. So and you're turning really far to the left or really far to the right to make that shot, I think that a heavy trigger is a real hindrance. So I'm I'm gonna get someone that I know is really, really good to work on a trigger of our my turkey guns now.

SPEAKER_03 42:21

Yeah. So, Rob, can you talk to us about uh your your thoughts on using like 20 gauges and 16 gauges and 28 gauges? Well uh what's uh the the the pros and cons?

SPEAKER_02 42:35

Well, I mean I get what you like. Uh 16 gauge is something that we don't do a whole lot with because you just don't see enough of them, you know. I mean it's they're they're still not that was that was a great that was a great you know um gauge or caliber, whatever you want to call it there. That that was awesome, but it's just it's so hard to find all the goodies that goes with them. Um if I'm turkey hunting, uh my hands down, I'm shooting 20 gauge. I mean, it's just I've had such good luck over the last several years since I swapped to them that I that I'm not going back. And I was a I was a guy that I was shooting three and a half, I'd shoot a 10 inch if you get it. I mean, I was always just always really, really mad at them, you know. And um what we're finding is the 20 gauges, because they are shooting flatter, that's the way to go. But like a guy's, you know, I'm not a uh I killed um, I've killed a ton of them, but it in my last last year was that first year, and I know it's a crazy, but it was the first year I ever killed when I was blind. And I know that's everybody hunts blinds anymore, but I had a bird in Missouri that was I was watching him every afternoon. I could see him out there, he'd drove me crazy. There was no way of getting to it. And so I went out there at 10 o'clock at night and put up a blind and uh throw decoys and everything out, and I got up there, you know, two hours before daylight, walking across this, I mean, huge, huge field that was nothing but mud. And um the way the outlook was or where it had to go, that's the only way I'm gonna kill him. And um I killed him, and it was it was really um it was really cool. I mean, it was uh I did get to see more, you know, hunting out the blind was more fun to watch the show, so to speak. But um, but with that being said, these 28 gauges are are still real guns. You know, I'm not a big fan of 410s, and I I get cussed about it. And oh yeah, I dude, I'm not here to argue to each his own. Everybody's got a right to do whatever they want to. But um the 28 gauge is really come on as a good one, especially um it's pretty close to doing the same type velocities and everything as the 20. It's it's not far off. And um, but 20 gauge is is my favorite by far. And then 12 gauge is 12 gauge. You know, that's uh that's the other thing. 12s and 20s, the shells are still what they are. Now on TSS and all that, a 28 gauge, 410s, they'll they'll fit the same thing. But uh when you're out here squirrel hunting, dove hunting, you know, shooting this type of stuff, the the 410s and 28 gauges get pretty expensive, you know, just on ammo stuff.

SPEAKER_03 45:04

So the TSS has kind of I think you use the word has changed the game on people being able to use a 20-gauge or a 28 or maybe about 410. Earlier you mentioned something about a turkey uh about a turkey. Lenny, he was talking about the turkey falling over before the rest of the water.

SPEAKER_05 45:24

Pellet count versus stream.

SPEAKER_01 45:26

Yeah, because it's like he was saying that the shot are not all at the same direct there there's like a that stream out there where some pellets are way out in front of the other pellets, which is fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 45:38

Yeah, could you explain that to us?

SPEAKER_02 45:39

Yeah. Well sure. When when you go when that gun, regardless, it don't matter which which caliber, which gauge, which everything. Uh when you go boom, these these pellets, there's a string of pellets that come out and go through the air. Well, like if you're shooting targets or a duck or something that's crossing, um, you might shoot too far. In front of it, and the tail end of that shot string is going to hit it, you know. So that's all great. On a turkey, when everybody gets to counting pellets, um, those pellets are not showing up at the same time because of the strings. So a turkey, which is basically a silhouette target, he sticks his head up, you go boom, and those first pellets that get to him, they hit him, and he goes down. The rest of the pellets in that shot string go right over his head. So, you know, that's why um a lot of guys, that's why you're not walking up there and there's you know 5,000 pellets or whatever in their head. But there is a shot string. So pellet counting is all great, uh, which takes us back to our earlier talking about how even the patterns and stuff are. That even rating is is really, really important because they're not going to escape from it. And then the other side to it is all those pellets are not getting there at the same time. Uh, you know, you're not shooting paper, they're not all there. But if uh if you're shooting a live target like a turkey, like I said, when it first hits, the rest of that string will go right over his head. And um also with the tighter the choke, the tighter the board, the tighter the choke, the longer the shot string is. So here you go again, you know, it's it's like uh um people people just don't realize that. They they don't realize that they think what they're seeing on paper, what it should be out there, and that's that's not necessarily the case. And years ago, not so much nowadays, but years ago you had so many duplex, triplex type loads, and then um in reality, some of the some of the lighter pellets would be getting their first over the heavy ones coming, you know. And so um I you know it's like I said, once again, to each his own, if you want to hunt everything with a 410 um repellet gun, go ahead. But um I I do I do like um the 20 gauge would be my pick on that. Um as far as shot string difference, they're all gonna have it, you know, from from the 410 all the way through a 10 gauge. You're you still got a shot string out there, but um the tighter the bore, the shot string's probably gonna be you know longer on, let's say a 410, 28 gauge with a tight choke compared to a 10 gauge. You know, that was one of the beauty parts. Um and like I said, I'm not knocking these guys, I don't use them, but it was like a Mossberg 835 was always a turkey killing machine, and they were like, it had a 10-gauge bore on a 12-gauge gun. So that big boar was actually causing, you know, a lot of people are like, Man, it kicks like a mule and does that. Yes, it did. But as far as the killing power on turkeys, it was always great because that great big boar was allowing more pellets to be on impact. You know, they weren't all there, but it had a shorter shot string. So uh that that that's one thing that never comes into play, but that shot string is an important part.

SPEAKER_05 50:52

It it seems like it would be a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

I hope that I hope that was some kind of yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:58

It seems like that would imply, I mean, to shoot a more open choke. I mean, if you're wanting a two by two completely even pattern. And I know you said that you're constricting your your TSS down maybe for for longer distance or something, but I don't know. I mean, because you know, that string being wider instead of longer would seem like it would be more effective to kill.

SPEAKER_02 51:20

Well, something else that we find out because of these machines and everything we do, we also find out that certain guns loved certain constrictions. You know, uh matter of fact, before I left the shop this morning, uh I was talking to one of our guys in here and he was out pattern testing a man's gun it had in there, and it was a uh, I believe it was a 28 gauge, he was out there, and this guy was was patterning um uh some loads uh when he wanted what we call we've got a T1 or R1 and twos and threes. And so he was like, Well, this guy um he was shooting one of the T1 chokes, he wanted to know what it pattern tested and for everything for for what he wanted on a T1. He said, But the guy, uh the T2, hands down, whether you was close, far, wherever, that choke is what that gun likes. And now we see a ton of that. So in reality, when you see guys that's got buying 15 different chokes for a gun, you don't need that. And you don't you don't need a bunch of them at all. And you just once you get the right one, my guns will have two chokes, one for turkeys and one for everything else flying. So if I'm dove hunting, if I'm shooting some clays, if I'm shooting whatever, my gun will be shooting at me. Basically, it's a raptor too, is what I've been shooting at it. It loves it. That's what stays in it, except turkey time, and I go to the turkey show. And so um, you know, to kind of answer your question on, well, should I open it up and all that? Um, you know, that's what we're here for. We're gonna we're gonna help take that guesstimate out. You know, it's like, no, here's what, you know, just like that guy this morning. No, sir, your gun, you don't need this joke. We're not gonna sell you something you don't need. You got he already had the two. That's exactly what this gun wants. Um, just stay where you're at, you don't don't buy no more, you know. And and uh I made that's why I told my guy, I said, call a guy on the phone, tell him he don't need this. He he's good where he's at. We've already gone through and did the test. Yeah, he he's right where he needs to be.

unknown 53:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:21

That's something that comes in a little bit. I guess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:24

You know, so a guy can take his shotgun. He can following Rob's advice, we you need to go and and shoot it at 30 yards, learn all that. There's different sites you can put on there that you can get comfortable with. Uh recently I got one of those Leopold red dots. I really uh I really like it. Well good pretty impressive. But there's things that people are in there, all these all these loads that are available now, you know, we've been shooting those heavy shots and we there's a bunch of different products that guys can get dialed in with spend some time with them and learn your gun.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 54:02

Rob, what when guys come up to you like at the NWTF, is there well is there a main question that folks ask about their guns that that some advice you could give there just right off the bat?

SPEAKER_02 54:16

Well, i it's it's gone so crazy. I mean it has, but um most of the time they're coming in and they're you know, we're gonna show what what we got offered there, um different varieties and and like I said, aesthetics has really come into play now because it's you know it's we're we're getting it out there, but um they like the different looks of the guns and everything. But when it comes back, it's just like what you know Bobby was asking me earlier there, what what about the forcing cone? What about the choke? That's two of your main players, and then get the ammo that works. There's so much value to it there. But a lot of times at the NWTF, that's what we're getting, is like, okay, uh, you guys are patterning these guns. Uh what are you seeing doing the best right now? And that's that's probably why there's a flood after the NWTF, is because all the new ammo's are out there, all the new this, that, and everybody waits to see what's going on, and then the floodgates open just as when this weekend here is over. Uh oh, we just have to hang on. It it's it's wild. Here comes all the guns, here comes, you know, it it's it's good stuff. But that probably takes testing on the saw that was uh, hey, what's shooting right now? What kind of patterns are you getting with this or that? That that's probably what we hear the most of.

SPEAKER_03 55:31

So, Taksha, we've been talking about the mechanics of the shotgun, so to speak, right now. But also one of the things that Rob's company does, number of companies does, that decorate the outside of the gun, these Sarah Coat finishes with that with full foliage or with bottom land, they are gorgeous. Looking good. Don't lay it down because you're not gonna find it. That's right. You ever lost a shotgun talk? You ever lean one against a tree and couldn't out. Not not permanently.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 55:57

I have lost them for a few minutes. Like, what are they gonna work?

SPEAKER_01 55:59

I have I literally with these ones in bottom land, I've literally jump up, go out there, you know, get the turkey, whatever, you know. I always try to keep my gun with me in case something happens. And then, but I'll get out there kind of enjoying the moment, leaning up on a tree, and then walk back to the tree and whatever I was at and look for my slate calls or whatever I left laying around. And it took a while to find it again, even though I know right where I killed him, you know, it's it's amazing. You can lose them, but that's also what you want because the last thing you want to do is any little shiny anything. Right, you know, that's a good, you know, a solid, like black gun is still a solid black gun, and would movement on it would show up a lot quicker to their eyes. So yeah, I hope you do have a gun that's so well camoed, of course, in Mossy Oak, that you have a hard time look finding it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 56:48

Rob, you guys do a good job decorating those guns.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

Man, incredible.

SPEAKER_02 56:53

Well, thank you. Thank you. And movement's another thing. You might have it, it may disappear, but you move just a little bit, and them turkeys are pretty pretty slick on that. Yes. They pick that up pretty quick.

SPEAKER_03 57:05

I've been, you know, uh, when I was in college, I worked in a sporting good store, and and that all the guns were shiny.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

I know.

SPEAKER_03 57:12

At that point, and they and they just started doing some dipping guns. Some matte dipping guns. Some mat finishing. But it is really caught on. Yeah, the special purpose was mat finishing. But I'm just you mean you can just see people that hunt with their gun, which is the majority of people now, that's accepted that you you you want your gun.

SPEAKER_05 57:28

That's the only one I can run.

SPEAKER_01 57:29

Shiny wood ones are gonna be all tore up. Yeah, it's like it's like the whole conversation about camouflaging. People say, Well, I can kill one in blue jeans. I said, Well, I'm not I could too, probably. But if you if it makes a difference once or twice a year, which it would it will, yeah, especially with the gun being camouflaged too. Why not eliminate that and have the best you can have on, you know, when especially turkey hunting more than anything. 100%.

SPEAKER_03 57:56

All right, Mr. Roberts, we appreciate you spending some time with us today. I think we all learned something. All right, brother. Go by and check out my own.

SPEAKER_02 58:03

Yeah, I mean I appreciate y'all having me on there and uh hope to see y'all over there at the show.

SPEAKER_01 58:10

Just know what your your name is legendary in this topic we're talking about today and guns, and uh we appreciate your sharing your time with us. I made a lot of notes about including going to shop real quick because it's gonna be this if this gets out before that convention, that's gonna be uh probably gonna be known anyway, but that's the longest line of anything at that show is the ammunition. They're sold out so fast. Unless there's a Mr. Fox vest. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 58:37

So uh Rob Landy and I would love to come over there in in April sometime, and maybe we could you know spend a little time with you a couple more.

SPEAKER_01 58:45

Oh, you better watch him. You better watch him, you better put a GPS tracker on him.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

I get it. You might have you might have to come to uh meet me in Missouri on the way.

SPEAKER_01 58:57

Don't ask him. I might have to do that.

SPEAKER_03 58:58

I'll do a lot of yeah. All right, Rob, we we've enjoyed talking to you. Thank you so much. Guys can go to Rob Rock custom uh shop there and get some information. We'll have it in the show notes, though. But thank you, and we appreciate all you do. All right, guys. All right, don't take care of thank you, sir. Travel safe. But guys, I just want to say uh thank y'all and and guys be safe with with the gun. Always safety first, no no doubt about it. Yeah, and with with these kids, teach them what you're doing. When you're going out there, explain to them Landon Hayden, he'd love to understand why are we doing this at 27 yards.

SPEAKER_05 59:37

Well, you know, and I've learned a lot today, like stuff that I hadn't done, you know, uh that I'm I'm really gonna be interested to go back and look. Um maybe it'll explain some things. Yep, you know.

SPEAKER_03 59:46

Landon, when these shells get so expensive, uh do you when you're like, oh, let me just pattern it with my dove. Oh, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna 100% pattern it with my dove.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

Oh, yeah, but you know that he said that, you know. So he's still gotta shoot one at see what it's doing.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:02

It does hurt your feelings, though. That's throwing$10.$10 a rip, yeah. I think they're more than that. Are they$20 now? I think so.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:09

Yeah, I'm gonna run over here to Gary's right quick. That's not stock up.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

That's still that's why there's you know, people will pay that. But you're gonna it's not like even ducks. No. Those are super expensive, but you might shoot a couple of boxes, you know, or a case a year. But if you're gonna spend it, spend it on turkey shoes. Most people are great season, they shoot one little box of five if they're lucky.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:27

Oh, if you shoot a box of five, you've done well. You've done well.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:30

So, yeah, per per hunt and stuff, they're lots cheaper than dub hunting or duck hunting. Good point. Good point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:36

Look at Toxie always brings it back to the city.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:39

Well, I mean, that's why they there's so many people in the business, and there's more margin in those shells because people are willing to pay more for that, you know. To know. Yep. Yeah. And there's nothing like knowing. It's kind of like the basketball tournament come up. They're looking for that one shining moment. There you go.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:54

Lanny, the uh the the sign up for the 400 still going on, still going on prizes going on.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:00

And will this will this release before NWT?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:02

I do it will not release before NWT.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:04

If you did come by, we enjoyed seeing you at NWT. Yeah, we did. We sure did.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:09

But guys, thank y'all for listening. We appreciate it. Everybody stay safe and pattern your gun. Get comfortable with it. Practice, practice, practice.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:18

Why don't you say goodbye, Richie? Get us out of here, Bobby.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:24

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the Game Keeper Podcast. And be sure to tune in again. Subscribe to Game Keeper Farming for Wildlife Magazine, and don't miss the Moff Young property full of dirt podcasts with my good buddy Rob Ghost.