Choosing Faith, Hope, and Love with Pastor Ken Nash

Rev. Dr. Ken Nash, Lead Pastor at Cornerstone Church in the Grand Rapids area, joins Bill for a meaningful conversation on what it looks like to choose faith, hope, and love—especially in life’s most challenging moments. Known for his practical, engaging teaching style and deep commitment to community, Pastor Ken shares wisdom shaped by more than two decades of ministry, walking alongside others through loss, navigating his own health struggles, and raising four children with his wife—including the unique perspective gained from their youngest child with special needs.

Through a blend of personal stories and scripture, Pastor Ken reflects on the importance of being fully present with the people we love, the freedom in not needing to have all the answers, and the quiet beauty found in life’s unanswered questions. He offers a powerful reminder that even in our darkest moments, God provides “breadcrumbs” of hope to guide us forward.

In a moving connection to Matt’s life, Pastor Ken shares how those who live anchored in gratitude leave behind more than memories—they leave a roadmap of hope and comfort for the people and communities who carry their legacy forward. You watch here or listen here.

To learn more about Pastor Ken Nash and explore his teachings, visit cornerstonemi.org, watch sermons on YouTube, or follow along on Instagram and Facebook.

Transcript

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Well, hello With Gratitude, Matt listeners, it's Bill Moran here, and I'm excited to be back with you for another episode of With Gratitude. Matt. Our goal with the show is to inspire more people to practice gratitude on a regular basis. Before I welcome our guest, we have a few announcements with gratitude mats on Instagram, so check us out and follow for more important announcements, timely post and inspiring messages. We're also on Facebook where you can also stay up to date with gratitude. Matt has a website with gratitude mat.org. I think it's a great place to find a collection of our podcasts. If you want to go listen to an episode for a first time, or re listen to your favorite episode this summer, we have exciting news! Friday, July 24th, 2026. We will be hosting our second toast to gratitude at The View in Mount Adams. Information on how to sign up and be a part of this year's event will be released soon, so stay tuned. Last year, we had over 125 attendees and dozens of generous sponsors. So once we release the signups, we expect the event to fill up fast. So please stay tuned as we look ahead in 2026, the entire With Gratitude Mat family is grateful and we are blessed for everyone's love and generosity. Now to our special guest, Pastor Ken Nash. I'm humbled and honored to be here with Ken. I was introduced to Ken by our dear friend and marketing director, Kristin Armstrong. Ken was Kristen's pastor at Wesleyan Church in Hamburg, New York, and now serves as the lead pastor for Cornerstone Church in Caledonia, Michigan. Ken married his college sweetheart, Christine, and they have four amazing children. Ken, welcome to with gratitude, Matt. Thanks, Bill. Really honored to be here. Yeah. So, Ken, this podcast was started by my brother and he was on his cancer journey when he started it. And, he embraced the practice of gratitude to find clarity, purpose and peace in his life. When he was presented with life's health challenges in April of last year. You received some disturbing news about your health, and you graciously offered to share your journey with us today. Ken, can you kind of walk us through that journey? I had made it 51 years without really spending much time in a doctor's office, and then, felt a bump on the side of my throat, under my jaw. Had not really intended to look at it. But ended up breaking my hand one day where a piece of drywall fell on it when I was walking up into the attic and I had surgery on it. And so I hit my deductible. So I said I might as well get my whole body checked out and everything checked out. I was just fine. And the doctor, touched that lump and he didn't think anything of it. And I said, can you check it one more time? And he pushed in a little bit harder. He said, that might be something. And then three weeks later, after several doctors pushed me to other doctors, a needle biopsy told me I'd be dead within a year. It was salivary duct cancer. It was in the lymph nodes and spreading rapidly. And so last Easter, I believed was going to be my last time preaching because of the type of cancer that they were. The surgery they were going to do just before Easter, I had to do a video, for the sermon had to be on video last year. And so I was very teary eyed thinking, this is my last time preaching ever, because it was probably going to paralyze my face. And so it was deeply emotional, deeply troubling. And to hear those words, you always wonder, how will I respond when the doctor says it's terminal? And it was it was awesome. The journey that I went through over the last year, then to really discover what was inside of me, to discover who God is in the midst of a crisis. To work through my theology of pain and suffering. I've been a pastor for 30 years, have done 30 or 300 funerals. I've walked through grief with people. But when you're facing your own, on. Your own. Mortality, it's not just preacher talking points anymore. It's real. And I like what came out of it. And I like where I'm at here. One year later, this being as we're recording this right now during Holy Week, it's quite an awesome, awesome thing to reflect back. And so I'm honored to have this time, Bill, to process all this with you. Yeah. So you use the word amazing and a lot of our listeners might not equate a cancer journey with amazing and maybe peel that back a little bit, you know, and how your faith and your family helped you. See, I guess the beauty in this journey. You know, in Romans eight, I, I've heard countless times people blame God when bad news comes at you. And now that I know I'm on the clock, you know, up until last year, I thought, yeah, I know I'm going to die someday. But I didn't really believe it. You know, you just kind of feel like you're invincible. But when you really are told this, you're now on the clock. You. Even if I have 40 more years, I only have 40 more Easters like, I. I have an expiration date. And so it forced me to kind of lean in to say, God, can I really trust you? And, The chapter that really affected me the most in Romans eight, it says. When. When we don't even know how to pray, the Holy Spirit prays for us. And when we groan. He groans. So God groans with me. And during the last, you know, the first six months after Easter last year, I felt more groans from God. Than than any. Of my why God and angry thoughts toward God. I felt an intimacy. In other words, there's some things. Only pain can teach you. There are some things that you can only learn about God when you go through the valley. And so I have felt and experience. God and. His hugs and his tears. In. Ways I had never experienced. Before. And that's why the word amazing is the word that fits in facing something like. Death. Even with your experience, you know, and you mentioned the hundreds of funerals that you've presided over and, and walked with your parishioners on their journey. This even took you to a new level and in a new place with your relationship. You have an amazing family. You're a parent, you're a pastor, you've got a lot of different hats. How did that maybe focus you? Or how did that give you resolve? Let this kind of adds to the story with with four kids, two of my kids last year were engaged to be married at the time of my news. And they they both through circumstances of just trying to get wedding venues and dates, we're both one the beginning of August last year and the end of August, my radiation, because I had to go through that surgery where they thought I was going to be paralyzed on my face. That ended up miraculously not happening. Then I had to go through 30 treatments of radiation, which changed my voice, which, gave me mouth sores to the point where I couldn't speak for seven weeks. Imagine a preacher not being able to speak. I really didn't utter many sounds for seven weeks straight as mouth sores just took over my entire inside of my mouth. And, in July, radiation stopped, and I had about three weeks to recover, and get the mouth sores gone before it. So my first time publicly speaking was at my daughter's wedding. Oh my God, the father of the bride speech. And my aunt came up to me and I had tears in my eyes. And she came up to me and she hugged me and she said, he's back. Oh, As we leaned in and hugged really hard. But, going back into the journey of when I was going through radiation, my kids, while they were going through all of their, preparation for the wedding. And I was passed out sleeping a lot of times and not able to even participate. There. Was an. Intimacy that could not have happened. Had I been just naturally healthy and strong, like I had been for 51 years. And so there was a sense of, real intentionality, purpose, because we didn't know even at that point if the radiation was going to work and if it was if it was in my lymph nodes and had already spread beyond my neck, the radiation wasn't going to kill it. And so would we have to do chemo next? Would I have to go through the next steps, or would I be dead within the year? Like they were saying, if I hadn't caught it? So there was an intimacy and a closeness that pulled all of us together as a family. And I think it made the weddings exceptionally more. Meaningful, purposeful. And so, again, you know, the word amazing, you know. Like, if I could go back and do it again, I would never. Say I would want cancer. I don't want anybody to have cancer. I hate it. I mean. As I've heard your podcast, Bill, about Matt and to hear his story, I'm like. You want Matt here again? Like we hate cancer. But I would in some ways do it again. For all of the intimacy and closeness that we experienced because of the urgency of the of the moment. So what a gift I call 2025 one of the best years of my life. That's ridiculous to say that out loud. Well, I mean, I'm so happy that your family and, lifted you up. Obviously your faith. You've spoke of that. And I guess. Did you turn this journey over to God, or did he walk with you? Or how did you know? How did you view that. This is going to sound strange? But I actually moved into for 7 or 8 weeks to a season of Desire. Lessness. When when you're going through a treatment. And I've walked through cancer with so many people and you see, how can they have that kind of strength? And I don't understand it, there is a supernatural strength that is just you can't put words to it. And I, I've spent my life learning. How to put. Word pictures together, and I can't put word pictures together on what happened, but as to be desired. Like there was a time, you know, no taste buds. You can't even really drink water without crying because of the pain. And. So I would just sit. There for hours. On end. No desire to watch TV or sports or, to eat anything, any food. Who cares about food? So you're you're at a point. Where nothing brings you pleasure. So I was. Sitting there on the couch, and my kids and my wife and my, my other sons were just sitting there working on things, and. And I would I almost felt like I got a glimpse of maybe. Me as a 95 year old great grandpa. And you ever see those guys? They're sitting on the couch. Everybody's having fun at Christmas time, and then they look. Over, oh, grandpa was there and then they come over to grandpa and. And he's just eating a bowl of soup while they're eating filet mignon, and he's smiling and completely content and that was me for a. Weird season of. Time where. I was just. Watching other people live their life. And I had no jealousy, no desire for stuff. I didn't want to try to gain money, popularity, status. I didn't want people's sympathy. I didn't even want people's attention. I just wanted to be present with people I love looking into their story. And. And just. Living in the moment and. The, you know, they call the present moment. I they call it a gift because it's a present. Right? You know, and, and I kind of experience that. So I. It you again. You can't put words to it, but it just feels like that kind of an image where thank you God for that moment. And it's it's amazing that you would explain that. And I really appreciate that explanation. And again, you walked it. You lived it. I think our listeners will definitely learn from it. And some of them are going through this, and I think they will find strength in this. But it brought you peace and clarity. But your faith teaches you so much more and has taught you so much more about. Did you think of your mortality at all? Was that something that how how did you weigh that? I think about how. Our, our. Future is only as, alive as as you. Kind of live it. Well, I'll come at it this way. Genesis three is how I think a lot of people live. We think of, hey, I was born into original sin, and I'm just. I'm just a broken person, and everything's kind of broken. And heaven. Started to look differently. Mortality started to look differently to me as I started to realize. You know, heaven is not a. Place of just sitting there dormant. Jesus described it as, the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed. A mustard seed is the smallest of seeds, and it grows into one of the largest plants. And so the he's saying there, the kingdom of heaven is a place of growth. And so as I thought about my own mortality, I started realizing. I'm already in this moment. Starting to experience a glimpse of heaven because I'm finding myself. Even in the inability to produce. Anything. I wasn't writing sermons, I wasn't preaching, I wasn't counseling people, I wasn't baptizing or doing confirmation. I was doing nothing to help anybody in their spiritual journey. And yet I was growing. I felt like I was maturing. And. Developing and becoming more of a disciple. So I was almost moving away from that concept of original sin. We're born into original sin, and we're just all messed up people. And I was moving backward to Genesis one and two, which is original glory. And that's heaven. God wants to move us backward to the way it was intended to be from the beginning. So through this season, my mortality was actually. Becoming more of. A thank you. I'm growing right now. And I'm starting to see glimpses of heaven. I almost dream of the. Day when I do die, and maybe it's 40 years from now. It might be four days from now. But when it happens, I almost hope. I hear Jesus or I say to Jesus once I get my head up and look at his glory after 10,000 years of his glory, I wonder if my first words to Jesus will be. As I was saying, Jesus, Before that death thing interrupted that physical death thing. But my spirit was already. In the process of experience in. Heaven and growing. And then death happened physically. And now I'm continuing to grow. As I have a glimpse of you. So as I was saying, I just want to continue this conversation. So I'm not concerned about my mortality other. Than missing my friends and family. Right? Right. But there to. Heaven is a thousand years is like one day. So they're already we're already there, like you're already there with Matt and the weird sense in the spiritual realm. So mortality. Bill. It sounds like a preacher cliche, but it just doesn't have. Power. He where our. Death is thy. Sting. There's. So I have a different perspective now. I feel like I tasted of heaven. Through. The desire lessness. And death of. My will and physical strength. Does that make sense? No. It does, and it it really does. Because I've. And I've never heard it that way. But you were able to break it down and explain it. The glory that was so powerful like that, you know, born into glory and will return and and that's inspiring, of course. And that's our faith. But. So how do you know if you're a parent and you're a pastor? So how did this affect you as a parent? Like how did like, you know, how did that did that change? Did it deep in it? Did it strengthen it? Yeah, the intimacy got a lot closer. So I haven't mentioned my my fourth son, he his name is Mason. He he's only ten years old. My other three are in their 20s. We went through a failed adoption season through Guatemala. And we went through a miscarriage. So we went through some ten years of pain before Mason came along. He wasn't an oops baby, but he was definitely, a surprise when we found out he was nonverbal, had some forms of autism, and definitely, well, with Down's syndrome just not cognitively as aggressive. But he's way ahead of all of us in love, way ahead of all of us in social, ability to connect people. So, I have found that for ten years of the struggle with him, we've been more intentional as as parents. Christine and I, when we got married, 30, you know, just over 30 years ago. Our marriage counselor said, don't get married. Oh, we are as opposite as they come. We did a personality profile and we were on the opposite spectrums in all ways. And so we we've had a bit of a rough season of raising our other kids, because we were opposite than everything. So she wanted to do home parenting this way, schooling this way. And and we were the opposite in every topic under the sun. And so it was it's a miracle that we were still married after those kids when Mason came along. I've realized. That we need our. Opposites. So what we think is bad and frustrating and hey, just divorce and go our separate ways. We ended up finding it's best counterbalanced us so much that we truly do need are completely, extremely opposite personality types to raise a child with special needs. So we've counterbalanced to have him in the middle kind of help and hold us, you know, and we come at him from different angles and that keeps him off guard, if you will, or balanced if you will. And it it has really strengthened us. So what I thought was a negative in struggle as we were not in the same page all these years has actually become over the last ten years, some intense, closeness, trying to figure out how to manage all this together. So a huge serendipitous surprise as a, as a couple. So now as I've had my own personal cancer journey, I feel like the last ten years we have been so, aggressively learning how to manage a special needs family lifestyle. That, cancer was just another part of the story of how to kind of be more focused and present. And so we have leaned in instead of running from, because we've been forced to look at things within us that we never saw before or so it's been a decade in the process to get to this point, to be able to be so present in this way. So, again, as a dad, as a parent, we just look at life, through a lens of growth and maturity that has happened over a ten year stint. Had we not had all of that, I think this cancer journey may have caught me off guard and would have I wouldn't have been ready and prepared. So again, preparation. God is is perfect in preparing us for that which is ahead. Yeah. And and so obviously your faith is deep. It's strong. It's it's, sustains you. But how do you how do you, and I'm probably thinking of your, your, your, your, parishioners and in your community when they, when we when we face these challenges, how do we trust in that plan? In God's plan? Yeah. Yeah, that's. That's the challenge for all of us. I mean, it is. It is and and I I'll, I'll just come at it from back, I guess jumping back to the Genesis three and one and two. Genesis three is the reason I got cancer centers. The reason I got cancer, that wasn't God's plan. God's plan was Genesis one and to original glory. Intimacy with him in the garden, intimacy with each other and purpose. You know, we'd take dominion over the land. And so Genesis one and two is God's plan for my life. Genesis three the rebellion and sin, Adam and Eve, and then us just carrying on that legacy. All these years later, we bring the diseases into this world. We bring all this garbage. So I don't blame God. I don't curse God for the bad things that happen in this world. I go to Romans eight. God grieves with me that we're in a world that is broken. Could God change it in a heartbeat? Absolutely. But again, there's some things only pain and suffering can teach us about ourselves and about God that that we can't learn any other way. So, I mean, when you think about God's will, God's plan, how do I navigate all this? When I get angry with God? I think of like first Thessalonians four. It says, God's will for you in Christ Jesus is to give thanks. In. All circumstances, not for all circumstances. So I give. Thanks in it while I'm going through it. Like in when when Jesus Watches grief, one of the oh, this helps me so much when I watch Jesus with Lazarus, you know, it's the funniest story in John 11 it says, Mary, Martha. Say, get here right now. 911 this is a crisis. You know, got it. You know, like, if you're the great Messiah, if you're the savior and stuff, they yell out, come here now! And Jesus says. Okay, I gotta I'll come there. And it says. He waits two more days. And then and then he says to his disciples, I'm glad for. Your sake. That I wasn't there. And I think, what kind of a savior doesn't save? And then this is what helps me so personally about God's will and God's how God navigates moments like these. If I were God, I would 911 get my ambulance, run over there and save Lazarus from dying. Jesus waits. Go slowly. And here's what that teaches me Jesus doesn't. Rush. Grief. He was going through the process of grief. He was showing us how to grieve. And here's what's even more important he doesn't rush grief, but he enters it. Jesus, who knew he could have rushed and saved Lazarus? But Lazarus dies. Jesus grieves and it says he weeps. Just like in Romans eight. And then. As as Lazarus is raised from the. Dead, you you. Watch Jesus and us weeping together. And so again, that's a story of God's will. Is not that Lazarus dies. Yeah. God's will is not that I get cancer or Matt. Dies. From cancer. God's will is that we enter. In with him and he grieves with us and for us to give. Thanks in. All circumstances, because we're in a Genesis three world trying to be turned into a Genesis one and original glory world. And so. I in. My struggle and when I, I, I've had three funerals this week. Three and I mean again hundreds in the past, but. I I'm. Always caught off guard by grief. But I'm constantly then watching God how can my job then in moments of grief to look at and find, where is God grieving with me in this moment? How can I be give thanks in that moment regardless of what's happening? So my job is to have eyes to see where he's crying with me and where he's hugging me or hugging them. And we are together, finding solace together. Like talking to you right now. Bill is a hug from God. Being able to reflect on this. I haven't taken the time to tell this story, much over the last several months. So it's this is so good. For my heart. I'm giving thanks for God in this moment. This is God's will. For me in this day. And so I'm. I'm filled. To overflowing with gratitude. It's a gift for us to and and I can't thank you enough for you helping. For me just kind of walk through God and his wants and hopes and and the fact that he is with us. It's so powerful. And I know when we release this, it's going to help others through their journey. And when they have questions and doubt enters. So we kind of skipped over a little bit. How does a young man get called to do what you're doing? I mean, because you're so giving you're so caring. But you know, you you entered the ministry many years ago and and how did that how did that all begin? Yeah. Good. Great question. Kicking and screaming. I. Was forced to go to church as a kid. I was one of those guys. And we would just go to church on Sunday, and then we lived anyway, we wanted the rest of the week we were that kind of household. It was religion. It wasn't relationship. And, so I found every way to fake sickness. I learned how to, you know, get this thermometer to go up in temperatures. And kids today are a little more shafted because the technology is better. But, I learned how to fake sickness a lot, and it's. I hated it, you know? I couldn't stand it. So. But then in. College, I started realizing I was empty and I didn't have an I. There was something I didn't know what was, what I was craving. I was craving something deeper. And nothing satisfied the typical story out there. And, so then one day I just thought, I'm going to try to I've heard about Jesus my whole life. I'm going to read about him. So I took a comparative religions class, and that just taught me about a lot of religions out there and stuff. And so and I thought, I'm going to read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John the stories of Jesus from four different guys Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They wrote about him. And so I read them, during break at in college, my freshman year, Christmas break. And I read them all Matthew, Mark, Luke and John almost straight through. And I was. Riveted. I was riveted by the person of Jesus. So I read them again. I think 2. Or 3 times read the Gospels just so. I spent the. Entire month of. My freshman year of college. When you're supposed to be partying. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. And I was like, Jesus is incredible. And so I said, Jesus, I don't know how to pray. I don't know what this all means, but I'm going to follow you with my life. And I went back to college after that, and I found my desire changing, and I and I was going to be a meteorologist. So I was studying all these classes on meteorology. I love storms and weather and all that stuff. And and then I found myself just wanting to talk and ask people about Jesus and questions. And so I found myself going to Bible studies and just wanting to learn more and more. Then I started hanging around a lot more Christians where I was like, these, these are just good people. Even if there's no heaven, even if there's no future, even if all this is just false, I just like what I feel when I'm around these people. And so then I started to feel the presence of God in new ways and think different thoughts as I got the mind of Christ. And so one thing led to another, and I one day, one of my pastors said, we going to preach. And so I preached and I thought I was terrible, I had stomach ache and I was I armed and stuttered the whole way through. I was terrible, but people came up to me and said, you affected me today. And so I started to see fruits coming out of my life. So one thing led to another, with opportunities to speak and share. And then I. Felt like God saying, I need you to do this. And I was like, But I'm bored in church. I grew up bored in church. Now you're asking me to hang out at church? What is wrong with you? And so I said, God, if you if you're calling me to be a pastor, I'm I'm going to be a different kind of pastor. I just want to be real, be raw, be human. Talk about real things. I'm not going to be political, about, you know, you know, politically correct with my words. I'm going to speak what I really am being called. And I've walked in that kind of freedom for 30 years, and it's really worked. I've I just find that people want authenticity. I share where I have doubts. I share where I'm angry with God. Yeah, there's an entire book of the Bible, Lamentations, yelling at God. Why can't. We? Why is a good prayer? That's a legitimate prayer. You don't have to just fold your hands, bow. Your head, and, you know, pray the eloquent prayers. It's being real and right. And so I've been that kind of pastor. And it was, again, just one step after another, listening to God's voice and opening doors. And it I've been able to meet. Amazing people and. To walk in the journey of what it means to be in a raw, real relationship with Christ and with others. You mentioned amazing people along the way, and there's one amazing person that you met while you were in college and you fell in love with her, and that's Christine and, what what is what is that marriage meant to you? And how has that been such a gift that the reward she can't even describe? Yeah, I didn't as I said, I didn't before. I didn't appreciate our differences at the time. And, I just married her because I thought she was pretty. I didn't know it. I'm not supposed to say that. I didn't know what else I was supposed to do. Pretty naive, you know? And so, but what I've come to realize is her depth of wisdom and her deep, deep, deep love of Christ. She's very introverted, doesn't really like the spotlight. So she's been a very nontraditional, atypical, pastor's wife that we don't do a lot of hosting dinners and stuff like that. But we go she goes really, really deep with a few people. And so she's really got a a deep rooted faith that has steadied me because I'm, I'm pretty flaky. In terms of my personality, you know, squirrel and I can get distracted by a lot. And so she really grounds me in those ways. And it's been really, quite, quite awesome to look back on after 30 years of ministry. You know, so it's I think they say opposites attract. And, you know, I think opposites attack, And we have. We and, but we, we've learned how to navigate that a lot through counseling and challenges of and being authentic and real with people. So that's, that's it's been an awesome gift and journey. Do you and I, I think I know the answer to this, but do you bring all of you know, you've talked about a lot here and I really appreciate you sharing that. Do you bring that, to your ministry? Do you bring that to your parishioners or do you bring that to your community? Yeah, yeah, we're actually in the middle of, a transformation as a church. You know, we've I used to have the motto. It's the Bible says it, I believe it. That settles it. And so it was real conservative. But I've been really frustrated with, the conservative spirit of the church that just kind of is a telling church. And we look down on people and we judge. And so I'm really evolving as a pastor trying to learn how to get Christians, to learn how to listen to each other. Think about this. There's 48,000 different denominations that tells you there's 48,000 different ways you can interpret the scriptures. You know. I disagree with you on women in. Ministry. I disagree with you on baptism. I disagree with you on the second coming of Christ. I disagree with you on, you know, any, you know, predestination. The topics go 48,000 different ways, and I'm convinced God leaves enough nuances in Scripture to teach us how to learn how to interpret the same verse differently, because I can give you arguments for all these topics. I just brought up both sides of the argument biblically, and and I'm convinced God left that nuance in there to teach us how to disagree. And lean in. Rather than wall against each other. So I'm really trying to create an atmosphere where we have people on both sides of the aisle on any topic. And, and. John Wesley said, think and let think when it doesn't strike at the root of Christianity. So, you know, if you say, you know, some other religion is the only way truth in life, I'm say, I'll fight you on that one. But all other topics. Let's think and let think. I want. To understand where you're coming. From and can I want to lean in. And understand why you're so passionate about that stance that you're on. Right now? Because I've never thought of it that way. I mean, the topic of hell, I'm writing a sermon right now where we're asking our congregation is asking a bunch of questions right now, and these tough questions are coming up. And one of them is like, how? And and there's three different ways to interpret the issue of how. From. All these different topics and, and, and they're all Bible verses. And it, it helps me. To realize even on something as tough as that. Topic. There are different ways of interpreting that verse. Well, then let's lean in and. Really learn from one another and listen to each other, because there is tension all over the place on all these different topics. And Jesus said one thing. About this your love for one another. Will teach the world about who you really are as a disciple. And so the best way to evangelize Jesus said, is our oneness with one another. So if I were the enemy, the devil, I would divide us, and he has done it 48,000 different ways. So we're trying to be a church that is in the messy middle, filled with grace and truth, where we. Lean in. And talk about the tough topics when we disagree, rather than turn our backs and run from each other and say, well, you're dead to me, I'm going to shake the dust off my feet and go away from you. I. Think that does a terrible disservice to the cause of Christ in the world. And that's why Christians look so. Ugly. To the to the world. I'm glad you explained that. And and one of the things that, you know, and Matt was not a theologian who wasn't a pastor, but one of the things that he picked up at his journey, and he always would share with his listeners, was two things that you mentioned listening and being present. And and I think you could even add a third and a you mentioned it was the love for others. And I think if it if you begin with that, then, then it's going to bring us closer together and absolutely. And I, you know, I appreciate you sharing that because those are, you know, and we could do a whole nother podcast on, you know, all of the ways that you're doing it. But I'm glad that you, you were able to at least touch on it because that is, you know, in society today, we we definitely need some healing. We definitely need to be together. And most of all, we need to listen, be present in love. So I think that's great. So you, you have a lot of daily practices. You have a lot of, habits. But, you know, and I and I don't want to overwhelm the listeners, but I also want to help them. What are some things that, you know, they can do on a daily basis that will help them in their daily lives? Every day I start with really one practice, renewing my mind. So I say, God, give me the mind of Christ right now. That's what I'm asking, because it says if you want to know, God's will be transformed by the by the renewing of the mind. I'm convinced the mind has just such a power to be able to really spiral your day or take you to places of seeing things that are miraculous, even in the mundane. So I claim the mind of Christ. And that's how you can pray without ceasing. Because it's it's funny when there's a command, pray without stopping. If we bow our heads and close our eyes, you're going to be, you know. Falling. Off cliffs. You know, when you're walking through the street and getting hit by cars. So how do you pray without ceasing? I believe what we're doing right now is a form of prayer. The Spirit of God is flowing through our conversation and in the mystery of heaven and earth, touching it's way beyond our comprehension. But there are some real, spiritual insights that come through these kind of conversations. So a simple practice of just saying, God, before I get out of this bad, I just want to think your thoughts today. I want to see the world through your eyes. I want to think the through your your mindset, world view. And I just find that takes me more optimistic. I see more light and I see people through the eyes of love rather than the eyes of judgment and condemnation. And so when I get hurt, I think it's probably not even personal. They're not even mad at me. They're probably because I'm a target, definitely as a public figure. And so people channel their anger toward me sometimes, and I never take it personally, I don't anymore. I mean, I took years of frustration through that. But renewing the mind helps a lot. And that's it can be a practice of praying daily by God. Just okay. Help me to think your thoughts. And that's what's fun, because then if you have a question that comes up and. All that, I don't know how to navigate that. That's too big of a question. Sometimes it'll be. 7 or 8 days or even several years later. And a fresh thought will come into your mind. And if you're really claiming the mind. Of Christ, you can start to meditate on thoughts that you. Go, that's an answer to a problem I've had for 20 years. And and but so then you can. Walk in a lot more freedom. God, if the door opens, great. I'll walk through it. If a door doesn't open, fine. I'll keep a question mark by that particular problem. But I'm trusting that you will bring insight and wisdom. When I'm. Ready, because sometimes this is a quick, quick, quick, fun sermon. There's God answers prayers always, but he says it four different ways. Sometimes he says know, sometimes slow, sometimes grow, sometimes go. So sometimes he says, no, you can't handle the truth. Sometimes. Sometimes he says, slow. It's not ready. You're not ready for that insight. Sometimes he says, grow. You're not mature enough for that insight. And sometimes he says, go. Here's the answer, and he'll give you the answer. And so I can walk freely if I don't have an answer to a problem. I'll just keep walking like I'm raising. Kids, you know? And my, my third. So two of them I got married off there. Have pretty good jobs. Are doing well. My third one, he's still, you know, 21 years old in my basement. I'm like. I don't want to have a 30 year old kid. Failure to launch. And so I'm nervous about his future. And, but I'm day by day not trying to harp Harbor on him and harp on him. I'm just letting God bring answers slowly over time. And I pour into him and love. And so I'm just walking by faith in the challenges of that. But that practice alone helps tremendously. Claiming the mind of Christ to think God's thoughts. Help me to see the world through your eyes. God. I, am reminded of one of the things that my brother said, and and it was at God's speed. And I didn't understand that, you know, and I thought it was just a greeting. I thought it was just more of a good luck or something like that. And then he kind of explained it to me, and that was life at God's speed. And of what you were saying about, you know, the four different messages, the four different answers that you can get when you're praying. So I think that that kind of reiterates that, well, can you've been a an amazing guest today, and I want to be respectful of your time and and everything. Are there any things that you think we should, you know, you should share, about your journey or about your message of gratitude or faith that might need to be said before we kind of close your episode. It's probably not anything new beyond what, all that I've shared around just the pragmatics of walking by faith in the day by day. But I think the the best answer I can give is a story from, a lady real good friend of mine. She was a counselor, still living, doing well in counseling. But her dad, when he was dying, I think I just want to give you a I leave you with a picture of the mystery of it all and give you a little bit of just perspective. If you have fear of death, fear of the future, or fear of the mystery, but give you maybe a story of mystery real quick here. Her dad was dying and in hospice, and he he was a man of faith, and he kept coming in and out of consciousness. And, you know, I wrote a paper in seminary in near-death experiences and things like that. And, but this story just carries me. He said, she said as he kept coming out, he would have his eyes wide open when he would have a little bit of consciousness. Dad, what did you see? And he one time said, Angel wings. Another time he saw feet, and she said, was it the feet of Jesus? And he said. I think so. But he was he was faint and all that stuff. But then, moments before he died, his eyes got real wide open again, and, and she said, dad, dad, dad, what did you see? And she got teary eyed and he got teary eyed and he said, I can't tell you. And she and I have tried to figure out what he meant by that. Did did he mean it? Did he mean. I can't describe it like it's too amazing what he's seeing as he got a glimpse of eternity or. And this is what I think it was. God put a sign up and. Get, oh, where did God say to him, quiet, quiet. And you. You can't say, I don't want people to know. It's like a professor of mine said, God, the further we get away from the resurrection, the many more breadcrumbs God gives us to lead us home. And that story just reminds me that there's such a mystery to all of this, that Matt lived as such a man of faith, because I think God gave him glimpses. That we. Can only receive when we're going through it. And I wonder if God just. Matt, don't say too much. Yeah. So that that's it. I can't tell. You. It's something I'm not allowed to say. That's beautiful. And I, I, think back and and obviously you've done, like you said earlier, hundreds of funerals and I've, you know, been to a few myself and we, we've experienced loss. I there's a, friend, a priest, that presides over the funeral. And he always reminds us, the listeners, the people in the community that this person who lived a life of faith, this person who lived a life with Christ and lived a life of gratitude, showed us the way. And I really think that that older gentleman was showing his daughter. But then I love the message from God and I. I choose to choose the latter interpretation as well as you. I like that the little, you know, let's let's not let, let's, let's leave some of this mystery still survive and be alive. But. Amen. Oh, wow. That's great. Ken, I know you're sharing your inspiring journey will encourage others to choose faith, hope and love. They'll be present. I really am excited about what your message is going to do for our listeners lives before we close our show today, my brother always asked, the guests and Ken shared it very exquisitely and was very eloquent in his explaining of it, especially incorporating the scripture, but always tried to find the courage to be grateful. And and Ken, you did it. You lived it. You are living it. Please continue to do three things each day. Listeners, find the courage to be grateful regardless of how powerful a storm is. Be truly present with those you are with. Pay attention to what you're feeding your mind, your body and soul. Again, a huge thank you to our guest, Pastor Ken Nash. To our listeners, remember to subscribe to the show, share it with friends. Please follow us on Instagram and Facebook and visit our website with gratitude. Matt.org. Please stay tuned for more information on The Toast of Gratitude, which will be July 24th, 2026 this summer. With gratitude, Matt. Listeners, until next time, find the courage to be grateful. Godspeed my friends.