117. Decoding the SAT vs. ACT: Strategies, Changes, and College Admissions Insights

In this enlightening episode of the College Knowledge podcast, host Joe Kerins engages in a comprehensive discussion with Shahar Link, the CEO and founder of Mindspire. Together, they dive deep into the intricate world of standardized testing and its pivotal role in college admissions.

Shahar, a seasoned expert in the field, offers invaluable insights on various aspects of the SAT and ACT exams. Topics covered include the delicate balance between test strategy and content knowledge, the ideal timing for taking these tests, the significance of the PSAT and National Merit Scholarships, and the importance of aligning SAT/ACT scores with a college's median score when building a college list.

This episode serves as a beacon of guidance for students and parents navigating the challenging terrain of college admissions and standardized testing. Whether you're seeking to decipher the SAT vs. ACT dilemma, understand upcoming test changes, or make informed decisions about your academic future, Shahar's expertise will illuminate your path to success.

Join us for a deep dive into the world of standardized testing, strategies for success, and finding the perfect college fit.

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Transcript

00:00:03:07 - 00:00:25:18
Speaker 1
Welcome to the College Knowledge Podcast, sponsored by the College Planning Network and Paradigm Financial Group. Whether you're searching for that right fit college, applying to college, or figuring out how you're going to afford it all, you're in the right place. You'll hear from deans, admissions counselors, student athletes and scholars from Austin, universities and colleges around the country. We'll dig deep to uncover their insight and unique experiences.

00:00:25:20 - 00:00:42:17
Speaker 1
So whether you're a student gearing up for college or a parent with college bound kids, sit back, relax and listen. Like you, we have lots of questions. Our guests have the answers, and we're excited to share them with you. Let's get started.

00:00:42:19 - 00:00:51:11
Speaker 1
We can send your student to the school of their dreams and send you to your dream retirement. Visit us at Elite Collegiate planning dot com to get started.

00:00:51:17 - 00:01:11:21
Speaker 2
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of College Knowledge. I am your host today. Joe Kearns. Very excited to have our guest We are going to be talking about I'm sure you know, heard these letters before, whether it's the S.A.T., the act. But we're going to be speaking with the CEO and founder of Mind Spire, SHAHAR Ling SHAHAR.

00:01:11:21 - 00:01:14:24
Speaker 2
Thanks for joining us today. And joining me, I'll say my pleasure.

00:01:14:24 - 00:01:16:21
Speaker 3
To be here. Thank you for having me.

00:01:16:23 - 00:01:50:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, obviously looking to have a very good discussion on S.A.T. and there's constantly been changes going on. And I know parents and students, like they stress out over those three letters, whether it's S.A.T. or ACT. We'll get into that. But I wanted to, you know, understand a little bit more about how you got to where you are, how you kind of came about to be, you know, a fine minds buyer, you know, helping kids get better scores, potentially get you into better schools or the school of their dreams and, you know, hopefully even getting some merit based scholarship.

00:01:50:09 - 00:01:54:16
Speaker 2
So how did you find your way into this industry? How did you get to where you are today?

00:01:54:18 - 00:02:18:24
Speaker 3
There are so you know, is thinking about this the other day. And I realized that the passion that that drives me, I've been doing this for 25 years. The first part time job I got out of college was teaching SAT classes for the Princeton Review back in I won't say the year and, you know, I loved it right away.

00:02:18:24 - 00:02:40:23
Speaker 3
And I after 25 years of doing something, you start to sort of take for granted why you're still doing it. But I was talking with someone the other day and I realized that when I was in high school and I took the SAT, I felt like the score I got didn't represent what I was capable of. And it it helped me back a little bit.

00:02:40:23 - 00:03:06:23
Speaker 3
You know, I didn't really study. I think I opened up a book and tried a couple of practice tests. It was a little bit I thought that was enough back then. Most people didn't realize what what it really took to show a significant improvement or to for, you know, for a student to get there and, you know, I it it made me kind of kind of angry back in the day.

00:03:07:00 - 00:03:30:22
Speaker 3
And, you know, so when I started teaching the SAT, I realized that like I there's something I could really help with here, which is, you know, getting the score to represent what a student is actually capable of was immensely satisfying for me because I knew personally what it meant when that didn't happen. And, you know, everything turned out fine for me.

00:03:30:22 - 00:03:50:10
Speaker 3
I went to a good university, I got A's, and then I went to an Ivy League school for graduate school and everything was fine. But it was tough, you know, And and I you know, I think I may have ended up with a better fit college if the scores I got were commensurate with what I was really capable of.

00:03:50:12 - 00:04:22:11
Speaker 3
So that's what fuels me. I started my inspired 12 years ago, and after having tutored the SAT in Manhattan and some other places and we it was we started in Durham, North Carolina, and we still have a lot of students there, but we have students all over the country on Zoom, and we have a team of about 20 tutors now, the cream of the crop.

00:04:22:13 - 00:04:30:21
Speaker 3
And, you know, we we've been doing it really successfully, but that's how I came to it. And I think it's worth worth hearing that story a little bit.

00:04:30:23 - 00:04:50:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, to jump into it, maybe all our listeners don't always know that there's two tests. You know, I think the S.A.T. is, you know, four years. I mean, I know when I was in college, even though there was an act, and I know that in the past it was kind of a regional type thing, But how has that changed?

00:04:50:20 - 00:05:01:17
Speaker 2
And is there you know, so our families know what is the only submit one score or do you submit both? What's the what's the process and what's kind of the some of the differences that have changed between those tests over the years?

00:05:01:19 - 00:05:30:11
Speaker 3
Right. So every university in the country accepts both the SAT and the act, and we definitely get calls from East Coast people who are like the act. Isn't that something that only they look at? If you go to the University of Iowa or something and the answer is no, like Harvard and down to every single school accepts either test, you know, East Coast, West Coast, Midwest, whatever.

00:05:30:13 - 00:05:56:22
Speaker 3
So, you know, it's really important for students to figure out which test is better for them. And submit it and submit that test. Okay. We have a whole process. The best way to do that is to take a practice. I sat full length and the practice asked full length over the course, you know, one one weekend and then the next weekend, whatever.

00:05:56:22 - 00:06:21:12
Speaker 3
Spread it out a couple more weeks so that you're not brain dead when you're taking the second test and see which test is better. And we could help you do that. There are online resources where you could compare the scores and they'll tell you which is better. In most cases, it's pretty straightforward. Sometimes you need a little bit more of a diagnosis to to figure it out.

00:06:21:14 - 00:06:59:11
Speaker 3
But yeah, so so that's that's a crucial point that a lot of parents that we speak to just don't know. And in terms of submitting scores, it's further interesting, complicated in that most schools you only have to you only submit what you want to submit. This is called score choice. So if you take the SAT three times and your last time is the best one, the only test score you need to submit to most universities is that last test score.

00:06:59:13 - 00:07:23:03
Speaker 3
So there's a lot of options. You know, you could take the A.C.T. and the SATs each twice and and then just see which one is the best. We don't recommend that because that's a lot of headache and a lot of work and a lot of money. Yeah. So, you know, you want to find the test that works for you, study for it and submit that in terms of differences between them.

00:07:23:05 - 00:07:56:13
Speaker 3
And until right now, they're both paper based and they both are right around a little over 3 hours. And the most significant difference is that the act has a science section that the SAT doesn't. But the S.A.T. compensates for that a little bit by throwing in science based passages on their reading section and on the writing section, and throwing in some more charts and graphs into even the math.

00:07:56:15 - 00:08:10:01
Speaker 3
Then the A.C.T.. So it kind of evens out. But the Act science section is a little funky for most kids, not something they've ever seen before and takes a little bit of getting used to.

00:08:10:03 - 00:08:39:24
Speaker 3
And there are some other minor differences between what the math looks like. So the SAT is more algebra focused, whereas the A.C.T. has a wider range. You'll find more trigonometry, you'll find more probability and statistics and some other random things. And besides that, the reading and the writing sections are pretty similar. But then one other difference is that the vocabulary level is harder.

00:08:39:24 - 00:09:06:04
Speaker 3
So the reading is a bit tougher, but the with the scoring, they it tends to be pretty close to each other nonetheless. Okay. However, there is a big change coming up, which is that beginning in March of 2024, the only the digital version of the SAT will be available. The last paper based version of the SAT will be January 2024.

00:09:06:06 - 00:09:32:13
Speaker 3
Now and then it goes all digital. They've already been doing all digital internationally, so there's been a rollout. It's been going very smoothly. We've I've spoken to owners of test preparation companies in other countries who say it's gone much better than expected. The proctors know what they're doing. Very few technical technical issues. And the kids like it because the new digital S.A.T. is going to be 2 hours long as opposed to three.

00:09:32:15 - 00:09:59:23
Speaker 3
Okay. And for your typical 16 year old, that's like an eternity of time. That's less so. And, you know, these kids get computers. They they feel comfortable, you know, taking a test on it, on a on a laptop. So that's that's going to be interesting to see how that plays out. And I can speak more to what the new digital asset is going to be.

00:09:59:23 - 00:10:31:20
Speaker 3
It's it's a little bit different than the current one. I can say a couple of things on that. First of all, there will be no more 90 line reading passages, right? They're not going to put on full essays that then followed up by ten questions where you constantly going back to that passage. Instead, the read you will have one reading question for one paragraph, and you're going to have about 30 something of those for the reading section so that it sounds easier.

00:10:31:20 - 00:10:54:20
Speaker 3
And in some ways, okay, you know, you don't have to read a whole essay, you just have to read a paragraph. But the difficulty level is the same. It's okay. Those, those one paragraphs are dense and the questions that they ask about them are serious Questions about what? What is the claim being made? What evidence is the author using?

00:10:54:22 - 00:11:18:24
Speaker 3
What is the main purpose of this paragraph? The same types of questions with the same level of difficulty. You just don't have to read quite as much. I think they did that because on a on a laptop it's hard to get all that, to get a full essay and ten questions in a space that's usable. So they jiggered it a little bit to make to make that happen.

00:11:19:01 - 00:11:32:14
Speaker 2
So yeah, I was going to say this is why I don't want to get too far because I want to break down some of the stuff that you said, right? No, no, it's it's all you're done. Donors is great. I just want to I don't want to. I'm writing stuff down. And I said, I don't want to miss some of these questions.

00:11:32:16 - 00:11:34:02
Speaker 3
So talk about this for days.

00:11:34:04 - 00:12:05:13
Speaker 2
So it's it's all it's all extremely important. But the first one you mentioned, taking a practice test for each of these to determine really then where should you put the effort in so you know which test you are going to really excel at more which one you have a better shot of, of a higher score. When you say practice test, is that actually going through like registering for these tests, taking them as if it's a real one or a practice test that is something is generated from, I don't know, like Khan Academy or something like that.

00:12:05:13 - 00:12:06:15
Speaker 2
What do you mean by the practice?

00:12:06:15 - 00:12:33:03
Speaker 3
Yes. So we actually call them mock tests to make it more clear that it's it's you're not going in and taking the official. I said you don't want to do that until you've studied a bit and you're feel ready for it. You know, just going in blind is a waste of money. Hundred bucks or so plus a little bit of a waste of a Saturday morning because you're just not going to get what you want to get if you go in blind.

00:12:33:03 - 00:13:04:08
Speaker 3
So, sure, these mock tests there are officially released publicly available actors in sets that had that were taken by 100,000 students. The real thing, because you can find them online, we have every single one that's ever been released and that's what we give students for their mock test, for their baseline or tests. And you can't do better than that.

00:13:04:08 - 00:13:37:00
Speaker 3
There are companies that release tests that are meant to be the same as the S.A.T. or the ACT, but aren't the actual thing that students took. And we really never use those because it's really hard to to to match the billions of dollars that the College Board has to create these tests. So that's what we recommend. We, we we also highly recommend that you do it in a proctored fashion.

00:13:37:02 - 00:14:00:13
Speaker 3
Yeah. In North Carolina, where we have offices and also in Boulder, Colorado, where we have an office, we will do that in-person. You can come to our office, there'll be a proctor, it'll be timed. It'll feel pretty real if if you don't live in those places. We do them online every Saturday morning at 930. So it's on Zoom.

00:14:00:15 - 00:14:16:15
Speaker 3
It's not quite the same as doing it in person, but it's close. There's a proctor there, it's live and you kind of have other kids going on there and you feel a little bit like you're being watched, which is the point. And then there are ways to do it completely at home. We have a Proctor video on YouTube.

00:14:16:15 - 00:14:46:15
Speaker 3
You just press play and it walks you through the whole three hour and 15 minute proctoring, timing, script. That's how we suggest doing it so that you get as close to the real experience. It's kind of amazing how much easier it can be taking it at home in your room where you feel comfortable and know what's looking at you, and how much of a better score you can get than what would happen if you did the exact same thing, except in a room with 30 other kids.

00:14:46:21 - 00:14:50:02
Speaker 3
Right? You have to practice that and get used to it.

00:14:50:04 - 00:15:14:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. And then I know you mentioned some of the differences between so I'll say things that I have heard, you know, from different counselors or maybe someone that's not necessarily in the know is that the if you're a student who tends to you be stronger in math and science, typically that's going to push you towards the act.

00:15:14:20 - 00:15:25:22
Speaker 2
But I've also heard that it's a little more time restrictive is as far as like the amount of time you get to spend per question. Now to those, do you think those two statements hold true.

00:15:25:24 - 00:15:58:06
Speaker 3
Yes or no? Okay. The time restricted issue is very real. The act is much faster paced. Mm hmm. On average, you have about 30% less time per question on the act. And that's a that's a big difference. Yeah. However, in terms of math and science, so the SAT is 50% math the way it's scored, right? You have you get an 800 on out of the math section and you have an 800 out of the verbal section which is combined reading and writing.

00:15:58:08 - 00:16:18:15
Speaker 3
And then you put them together and your total score is out of 1600. So there are a lot of cases if a student is really, really strong at math because the SAT is 50% math, it's just going to have a bigger impact as opposed to the act, which is 25% math. Okay. So if you're going to get a perfect score on the math section.

00:16:18:15 - 00:16:43:06
Speaker 3
But the other is that doesn't really happen. But, you know, hypothetically, the the act won't look as impressive, whereas if you have the same situation on the set, it'll look pretty good. That being said, the act does have this science section, which one would think tracks pretty closely to the math, right? If you if you can get a perfect score in the math, you should get a perfect score on the science.

00:16:43:08 - 00:17:06:13
Speaker 3
But in most cases, the science section on the act is sort of right in between the reading and the math because it's pretty reading heavy. The way it works is they give you a passage from a from a scientific journal that has some graphs and charts and a description of an experiment, and then you have to answer questions about it.

00:17:06:15 - 00:17:31:21
Speaker 3
So some very strong math students don't immediately click with that, whereas some very strong reading students just totally get the science section because they see it. All they have to do is read and answer questions about what I've read. So a little tricky with that. And again, like, the only way to really know is to take these mock tests, like how to.

00:17:31:23 - 00:17:42:07
Speaker 2
So then you started talking about some of the new changes that are upcoming with the S.A.T.. I'm going to zero. Is the act saying paper there's no.

00:17:42:09 - 00:18:06:16
Speaker 3
More they said it is staying paper. They're the only time the act is digital or is if you take it as part of your statewide testing day. So a lot of states, North Carolina, for example, is is an act state where every public school student in the state will take the act in February or March and it'll be digital.

00:18:06:17 - 00:18:22:21
Speaker 3
However, it's exactly the same as the paper based test. It's just on a computer, so it's not really different. Whereas when we're talking about the digital S.A.T., it's it's a totally different thing than the paper based S.A.T. So obviously.

00:18:22:23 - 00:18:41:10
Speaker 2
I don't know if the College Board went this route because of everything that happened with the pandemic and then schools essentially going optional. You know, and I know you mentioned part of this, like, is it easier? I know that there has been also some fears from parents of saying, well, from what I'm reading, it's they're going to make the test easier.

00:18:41:10 - 00:19:02:05
Speaker 2
So if I have a standout student, it's going to not as hold as much weight. I mean, you mentioned it's not necessarily going to be easier, just different. It's still going to be comprehensive. So we kind of say that that doesn't necessarily hold water or that it's it's not going to lessen the score for somebody that that does score really well.

00:19:02:07 - 00:19:30:15
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's not going to be easier. Yeah. Okay. It can't be you know, the the way these things work, if they were easier, then the colleges wouldn't have a standardized measure across several years that they as a 1500 in a year has to be the same thing as a 1500. Now otherwise the 1500 doesn't mean anything and the colleges don't make of it.

00:19:30:15 - 00:20:05:09
Speaker 3
So the College Board has a gigantic incentive to make sure that these tests remain. It's the time the technical term is, well, reliable and valid. And despite all of the issues that the College Board can have, they're pretty good at doing that. So I would trust that the, you know, a 1400 today will mean the same thing as a 1400 in a year, and that the level of difficulty to get that 1400 will be the same.

00:20:05:11 - 00:20:26:15
Speaker 3
It will be different, however. And yeah, for some students the digital SAT will be will feel a little bit easier. Whereas for others it might feel a little bit harder. But on an average it's going to be the same. You know that you do want to look at the individual student when it comes down to it.

00:20:26:17 - 00:20:40:09
Speaker 2
So what about the you know, because again, the other piece that I'm constantly been hearing about is now that so many schools have, you know, they went optional and they haven't really gone back to the it's required to submit a test. Are you.

00:20:40:13 - 00:20:40:20
Speaker 3
What.

00:20:40:20 - 00:21:09:03
Speaker 2
Do you what you want I'll say what's your opinion on that? Because I know a lot of parents say, well, my my son or my daughter is not a good test taker, so we don't have to submit it. So we're not going to I my opinion is, well, look, I mean, I would say, you know, prep for it, at least take it because you have the option of not sending in your score if you're not up to the caliber of that, you know, your GPA, your extracurriculars, your essay could get you in in the SATs, what can potentially hold you back?

00:21:09:03 - 00:21:28:19
Speaker 2
You now have the option of not sending it, whereas you can even choose which schools you send to and which schools you don't right now. So with this kind of change, obviously you've been doing this for a long time. What are you seeing in that aspect of with the option to submit? Do you submit, do you take it?

00:21:28:19 - 00:21:32:09
Speaker 2
What word were you lining up with with that concept?

00:21:32:11 - 00:22:06:00
Speaker 3
So there's a good amount of data at this point. The test optional policies have been in place for three or four years and that longer in some places. And on average, students who submit scores are somewhere around two twice as likely to get in students who don't. That doesn't mean that students who obviously what one thing that means is that students who are not submitting scores are still getting in in healthy numbers.

00:22:06:00 - 00:22:33:06
Speaker 3
But if you submit a score that is 50th percentile or higher for the for the median score for that school. So meaning if the median score for your school is a 30, but and you got a 31, if you submit that 31, you probably have twice, twice the likelihood of getting in. Then a student who does not submit a score at all.

00:22:33:08 - 00:23:10:18
Speaker 3
So if you're serious about maximizing your chances to get into a particular school, then it really makes sense to go for that median score or above. Yeah, you will be greatly helped on your application. That being said, if you take these baseline tests and you're really, really far away from the median score of the school of your dreams, then there are times that we counsel families to not bother with this.

00:23:10:20 - 00:23:45:22
Speaker 3
It doesn't happen often. Usually kids are within striking range at least, and in and are within the typical range of where preparing will get them to that score or higher. But sometimes it's just really far away or the student is just not motivated enough to make it happen. And in that case, yeah, test optional policies are a good thing and we, you know, there are definitely times I mean, our business has the test prep business.

00:23:45:24 - 00:24:08:02
Speaker 3
What the overall effect is that you you have slightly fewer students taking the test than Ben used to and it tends to be a little bit more geared toward students who are gunning for a particular school, which is which is all good, actually. It's it's kind of liberating.

00:24:08:02 - 00:24:31:05
Speaker 2
So so I think one question that as is typically on a lot of, you know, families minds, at least maybe, maybe it's not. They just think about the score, you know, okay, I need a score. I've always been, you know, kind of wanted to know, well, okay, it's a standardized test and it's a way to measure students, you know, one student versus another and someone scores higher than another.

00:24:31:07 - 00:24:43:23
Speaker 2
What do the scores actually mean? A, what is it saying to a school if you do get a 1400 or an 1100, what is it saying to the school? That is why they use this in the application process.

00:24:44:00 - 00:24:54:10
Speaker 1
Thank you guys for being a part of college knowledge. As you know, it's part of our mission to help you guys. So please send any questions you have to us at info at college. Knowledge dot net.

00:24:54:12 - 00:25:18:08
Speaker 3
Good question. Harder question Before I jump there, I wanted to say one other thing about the this. There are still a lot of scholarships that are whether a school is test optional or not. If you want to get a scholarship at that school, you have to submit a score of a certain of a certain cutoff.

00:25:18:10 - 00:25:21:11
Speaker 2
I was going to get there. I wasn't going to get exact.

00:25:21:13 - 00:25:33:24
Speaker 3
I just realized that despite all of the test optional stuff, it's kind of interesting how there's still requirements for scholarships. So, yeah, if you're in that market, then then you really, really should take the test.

00:25:34:01 - 00:25:56:11
Speaker 2
And and I mean, I know statistics have proven that like one of the main ways to kind of increase a merit based scholarship is to have an SAT score or a higher SAT score. I mean, that still has not changed. Even though schools went optional, it's still well in the air. There's some schools you can go on their website and you can see that they have a scale.

00:25:56:13 - 00:26:16:09
Speaker 2
So a sliding scale, the higher the score, the more money you'll get super clear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And some other schools are not as clear, but they're still using the same guideline or same metric. I know ultimately how I, how I truly have viewed merit based money for my college is ultimately how bad do they want your student?

00:26:16:10 - 00:26:43:00
Speaker 2
You know, and ultimately it comes down to, well, if they're going to offer you more money, it's because they think that you would be a great fit at their school. So you are exactly what they're looking for. And so if a standardized test can basically show a school that, hey, students that score this score higher in our past 10 to 15 years have stayed, have graduated on time, have had a high GPA, guess what?

00:26:43:00 - 00:27:00:10
Speaker 2
That makes the school look better. And now all of a sudden it looks better like you want they want to attract those students, so you want to look as desirable as possible. The more desirable you are, the more money a school typically will offer. And you know, and obviously, hey, the sad and that's part of the reason I was like, well, what is the score?

00:27:00:12 - 00:27:07:20
Speaker 2
What does it really mean? Because that's what does it do to make you look more desirable with a higher score, Right?

00:27:07:21 - 00:27:34:22
Speaker 3
So yeah, that's that's a good segue way there. Fundamentally, the the tests there, there are two things that I would point to here. First of all, these are really core skills that the tests are testing. It's it's you read an essay or a paragraph and you're asked the types of questions that you would be expected to be able to answer in a university setting.

00:27:34:22 - 00:28:07:05
Speaker 3
What is this author's argument? How does he build or she build that argument? What is the evidence they're using? What can we infer? Right. These like really core reading, critical reading questions that mean something in terms for for a university admissions committee, if you can crush them versus if you can't. And then there's core writing skills, right? You know where to put a comma.

00:28:07:07 - 00:28:30:14
Speaker 3
Do you know what it is, An adjective versus an adverb? You don't have to know those words, but can you tell where one is supposed to go? And it's a it's a way of getting at, you know, do you have basic writing skills in place because there's no university in the country where you're going to be able to graduate without writing somewhat decently.

00:28:30:16 - 00:28:55:17
Speaker 3
So they really care about that. And then, of course, math there. But math, there are universities where you can get away with not doing much math. And honestly, at those types of schools, they might look a little bit less intensely at the math section. But then again, there are all these schools that emphasize technical stuff, and the math is crucial.

00:28:55:17 - 00:29:18:06
Speaker 3
If you can't do algebra, you're you're not going to succeed. And they know it right? So I see this whole thing and I always have as you know, there's a side benefit that students walk away from a serious effort at test prep, having learned very real skills that are crucial for success in college, at least, and perhaps beyond.

00:29:18:06 - 00:29:47:11
Speaker 3
If you're going to go to graduate school, etc., or, you know, do something that's very math focused or very writing focused, etc.. So I think admissions committees see what the test means and to some degree as that. The second piece is that these tests are literally the only thing that they have that is comparable across the United States and the world.

00:29:47:13 - 00:30:18:06
Speaker 3
There's nothing else right? A 4.4 GPA at one school could mean something very different than a 4.4 GPA at another school, and they know it. And many admissions people know the differences between these schools. But there's a million schools in this country and they don't know every single one. And that's when they look at the score to say, okay, so the 4.4 GPA means something here because the student also has a 1450 on the SAT.

00:30:18:09 - 00:30:50:17
Speaker 3
So that 4.4 is pretty real. Everything else is also very subjective. The, you know, the essay and your what you've done as as extracurricular stuff. I mean, all of these things are harder to interpret or take more time to interpret and depend a lot on a whole bunch of other circumstances. So the other thing the test means is just something that is objectively comparable from one student to another no matter where they live.

00:30:50:20 - 00:30:52:12
Speaker 3
And that matters.

00:30:52:14 - 00:31:23:22
Speaker 2
And so the one we're talking about, you know, okay, if you if you're going to go this route and you want to make sure that you're prep, I think in a question that I've always had with this that maybe you can answer is how much is it understanding the process, how much of your of a student's effort should go into knowing how questions are asked, kind of the strategy behind it versus the actual topic knowledge, you know, the like where's the balance there?

00:31:23:22 - 00:31:45:07
Speaker 2
Because again, a test can be a test, but it may not be exactly how this test is given. So knowing the time management per question, the knowing, okay, do I if it's multiple choice, do I do I get into a strategy of eliminating the options that I know are wrong, like the actual strategy and then knowledge base? Is that a 5050?

00:31:45:07 - 00:31:52:15
Speaker 2
Is it a I mean, is it you need both. You need to master both of these to really master this test, or is it more, hey, if you know it, you'll you'll do all right.

00:31:52:17 - 00:32:18:15
Speaker 3
Yeah. It depends on the kid for some degree. If I had to say something out, you know, in general, it's about 5050. Okay, So 50% is all right. I can do this math. I can read stuff and understand it. I know it, and I know how to spot an argument or or a main idea. I know where to put a semicolon and stuff like that.

00:32:18:17 - 00:32:49:05
Speaker 3
The other 50% is knowing how the test wants you to know these things and show that you know it. So you can really know most of the algebra you're supposed to know and not show that on the test very well in the beginning. Okay. Because, you know, the SAT there are 58 math questions. I think I got that right.

00:32:49:07 - 00:33:17:18
Speaker 3
And that's a pretty small number of questions overall. And they ask the same types of questions over and over and over again, and they're asking them in pretty specific and predictable types of ways. And some of those ways are something that many students have just never come across, even though they know the concept there. And, you know, but their teacher just presented it differently.

00:33:17:20 - 00:33:45:08
Speaker 3
So that's where getting to know the test itself can be huge for some students, that it's all the strategy. If, if, if they were again, having like a really strong academic foundation, but they get a math score, it's it's it's it's always kind of fun as a tutor because I can get their score very fast because I don't have to teach them any content.

00:33:45:12 - 00:34:06:08
Speaker 3
We just got to get the strategy. They take practice test four or five times. By the time by their sixth practice test, their score has gone up 300 points, you know, because it was just like, Oh, that's what they're looking for, right? Whereas for some students there's a lot more content to be learned and and that can be really, really important.

00:34:06:10 - 00:34:10:19
Speaker 3
So but in general, yeah, 5050, they're both important.

00:34:10:21 - 00:34:25:10
Speaker 2
All right. So the other one I always get asked and I'll give you my answer and you can tell me if I'm right or wrong with this one. All right? Which is how many times should you take these tests? And I know you just mentioned somebody taking a practice test, you know, six times. Okay. I'm not getting into the practice side of things.

00:34:25:10 - 00:34:48:12
Speaker 2
I have no knowledge of that. But what I have seen as far as being successful, because the other one is when should you take this? Okay, my kind of piece has been that mock test that you mentioned, right. With the SATs to know where you're going. You want to take that junior year? Okay. And then I usually say, Hey, this is my opinion.

00:34:48:12 - 00:35:14:15
Speaker 2
So and I've heard it some people and they've agreed with me, so you can definitely disagree. I'll definitely have the conversation. Want to know why I'm wrong? But I also know that the junior year GPA is extremely important in the admissions process, and I usually want to make sure that students, I would advise like, Hey, you don't want to necessarily take time away from your studies that may lower that GPA to get a better S.A.T. or A.C.T. score when.

00:35:14:15 - 00:35:39:11
Speaker 2
You can wait until the school year over prep cram and then take the test in the summer. And if you don't do well, then you can do it one more time before the school year starts. And typically, if you prep both times with that score from the mock test, that if you prep twice after the mock and you go to take it a third time, chances are you're not going to do better.

00:35:39:11 - 00:35:57:06
Speaker 2
The only time I've seen people do better is if they didn't prep the first two times and then, well, I'm saying that the fourth time, like four or more. The only way you do better is if you didn't prep before four. I don't know. Am I right? Would you agree with that kind of timeline? Would you agree that that's kind of the process?

00:35:57:08 - 00:35:59:23
Speaker 2
Again, just one man's opinion. But yeah, you're an expert.

00:35:59:23 - 00:36:35:20
Speaker 3
In this field with part of it, and I would agree with it for some students, but not for all. Okay. In general, we counsel students to take their baseline mock test the summer before junior year. Okay, so we have it's our busiest time for students to take baseline test is June and July before their junior year. And in August that way they know earlier on how much how far away they are from what they would be proud of.

00:36:35:22 - 00:36:51:17
Speaker 3
Mm hmm. If they're 300 points away on the SAT, then we're going to say, if you then start studying now, it's what you don't. That takes a long that takes that can take nine months to close that gap.

00:36:51:19 - 00:36:52:08
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:36:52:10 - 00:37:30:07
Speaker 3
If they're amazing and you know, and they're just like 50 points away from a score they would be super proud of, then we tell them, well, you could, you could study now for a couple of months and take the test earlier in your junior year and be done with it. And because of what you're saying because junior years apart and it's it's tough to be doing everything and get a really great GPA and that's really important if if you know on the other hand if they're also really close, we might say you know you're you're cool.

00:37:30:07 - 00:37:54:09
Speaker 3
Just come back in a year and do this process the summer after your junior year, you know? Yeah, most of our families prefer to do it before they do it. There's a peace of mind. They I've done this, I've gotten the score I'm happy with and I'm done. Yeah. A lot of families want to be done. Not necessarily before their junior year, but before the spring semester.

00:37:54:09 - 00:38:23:20
Speaker 3
So by January or so, because the spring semester, junior year is where it really gets tough as a tutor. That's where I see these last minute cancellations all the time. I have seven tests tomorrow, right? So it's nice to be done by like that January, February, before your junior year in your junior year. Sorry. So we try to steer students in that direction.

00:38:23:22 - 00:38:51:05
Speaker 3
When it comes down to it, most students still are studying a little bit or many in their junior year toward the end and in the summer afterwards. Statistically, there's there's an interesting statistic, which is that the highest score that students get on test if they take it two or three times, is the test that they take in like September or October of their senior year there.

00:38:51:10 - 00:39:17:10
Speaker 3
There's an aspect of it which is also just maturity. So cognitive maturity, knowing when to in the moment understand, okay, I have no hope with this question. It's a waste of time. I'm going to move on to the next one as opposed to spending 2 minutes and then running out of time at the end. Those kinds of little things just get it a lot better between 10th and 12th grade.

00:39:17:12 - 00:39:36:11
Speaker 3
And so there's there's part of it that just that and there's also just part of it that. Well Junior has done you've learned a lot more math. You read a lot more, all of that, and you're just kind of getting better at these things. Yeah. So that's a little bit of a more complicated way of answering that question.

00:39:36:13 - 00:39:58:21
Speaker 3
We recommend that students take the test definitely twice. And if they're not happy with that second one, take it a third time. After that, you start to see not much happening anymore again, unless they've never prepped. Sure. And then they decide to do some prep between the third and the fourth. Yeah, we'll get a better score on the fourth test.

00:39:58:23 - 00:40:11:08
Speaker 3
Okay. Assuming that they've been working with a tutor through the process, that third test is typically about as high as it'll go before you just see very little return.

00:40:11:10 - 00:40:21:13
Speaker 2
When you were telling me that timeline too, I don't know if this one factor in it all, but there's that kind of setting the timeline a little bit earlier is that potentially help with the PSAT as well?

00:40:21:15 - 00:40:49:07
Speaker 3
Yeah. So the PSAT is in October of their junior year, and the PSAT doesn't matter for anything except for these National Merit Scholarships. So you can get a super duper high score then that looks really good on your college application and by, you know, for a student who's in range of that, we definitely say starting June, you know, finish your junior 15, finish sophomore year, take a baseline test.

00:40:49:09 - 00:40:59:21
Speaker 3
If you're at a 1400 ish or so, then it makes sense to study over the summer and maximize your chance of getting a merit scholarship for sure.

00:41:00:02 - 00:41:17:23
Speaker 2
And some I mean, that National Merit Scholarship. I mean, if you know, our listeners are if that's where your student potentially is, I mean you can go on the website and see that there are schools that well, it's a full ride. I mean, if you're if you go to that school, you apply your national merit score, it's it's basically automatic.

00:41:18:00 - 00:41:35:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. You so obviously I know some families aren't even aware that how you become a national merits caller is from the PSAT. You know so I think I might actually change what I have thought from my timeline just where you said, hey, take that baseline in the summer prior to just for that added aspect as well.

00:41:35:22 - 00:42:04:06
Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Again, the biggest reason is that like junior year just gets stressful. Sure. And what I say to parents, the phrase I use is it's nice to have a wiggle room. Right? There's you're not doing that much over the summer. It's not going to be as stressful if the score is amazing. Cool. You know, we that if the score isn't amazing and you need to go up, well now we have a whole year over a year to play with if we need it.

00:42:04:08 - 00:42:06:17
Speaker 3
And then it's just kind of nice.

00:42:06:19 - 00:42:27:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, this is all been great. My last question kind of goes towards, I'll say the the building, the college list, because this is a question that I don't know if parents are actually asking themselves or students are as and I don't know if you have this answer or not, but we always focus again on that social fit, right?

00:42:27:19 - 00:42:44:14
Speaker 2
Social vet, Hey, you're going to a school that is the right size, right? You know, in the city, in the country, far away from home, not far. Or, you know, it has to be within a two hour drive. Like everything that the students on campus are your type of people, you essentially are going to be happy when you wake up every day to go to that school.

00:42:44:14 - 00:43:03:06
Speaker 2
You wake up If you're happy, you're going to do better in class because you're going to be in a good mood. You're going to retain information, better grades, potential internships, better jobs, Like it's a it's if you go into a school, you hate being there. You're not going to finish four years there. It's imperative. What we focus on really is, again, that financial fit, which, hey, guess what?

00:43:03:06 - 00:43:26:23
Speaker 2
You know, not all schools are affordable. You can't sacrifice your future. You know, you can't sacrifice mom and dad's, you know, retirement, you know, to to go to a school that it just is not affordable. But the last one, when we talk about the academics that I've know talk to families about making sure that you're going to school, that pushes you the right way, that it's not a school that you can't succeed at or it's not a cakewalk.

00:43:26:23 - 00:43:47:02
Speaker 2
Right? It has the right program, the right major. And again, class size being important that the you know, if you're someone that likes to raise your hand in class and be called on, the professor knows you by name. Guess what? Not all called not all colleges and classes have that. It's you sit in a lecture hall with 200 other people, you know, like those those classes exist.

00:43:47:04 - 00:44:23:22
Speaker 2
But when you're building a college list, I know that a lot of you mentioned like, hey, this is the school of my dreams and I want to get an SAT score that is in that median, 50% or higher. Is there some I'll say you know, is there some real that if you're getting, you know, a 1200 on your S.A.T. and the median score, your dream scores of 1400, you know, and I'm just throwing numbers out there that maybe the student should look at that and say that's maybe not the best school for me and that the schools that do have my median SAT score probably may be a better academic fact.

00:44:23:22 - 00:44:39:12
Speaker 2
Could be S.A.T. and prepping for that and knowing your score help actually alleviate what scores could be a very good academic fit for the student rather than the way around where I want to go there. This is the school I need, which is curious if be kind of use it backwards, if that's been anything you've ever seen.

00:44:39:14 - 00:45:11:22
Speaker 3
I think that there's definitely something to that. And I will. And I had that discussion with with students. Again, we don't go into building the college list, but yeah, this kind of issue comes up sometimes. The only caveat I would say is that there are times when a student gets a 1200 on an S.A.T. but there's something weird going on like that doesn't make sense.

00:45:11:22 - 00:45:39:07
Speaker 3
They're they're really strong math students and their teachers say that, and they're not at an easy school and they're getting A's in whatever it is. Then, you know, there are a small percentage of students who it's like the pressure of the test. And some maybe the timing thing is just like they can crush their math, but they need a little more time to do it.

00:45:39:07 - 00:46:10:00
Speaker 3
And in high school classes they have that. Whereas in the S.A.T., they don't. So in some situations like that, I would say it don't don't think about that. You know, don't think about, well, I'm not good enough for this school. You are. But there are other cases where. Yeah, that student who you know, if they're trying to get into a school where the median is 1400 or 1500 and they have a 1200, then you know it.

00:46:10:02 - 00:46:41:13
Speaker 3
They might not feel terribly comfortable at that school. And I hate to say don't go for it. Right. But if it's sort of a miserable process to to to get that increase, to get to that score, then that that indicates something we like. You know, I like tutoring. I just had a student who I told her, like, despite what you may think, I don't enjoy torturing children.

00:46:41:13 - 00:47:08:24
Speaker 3
You know, I know there are a lot of students I hope even most find something really engaging in this process that they're learning. So but if if it's all just doom and gloom, then then, yeah, closing that gap to get into that school might not make sense given the fact that it's just going to be really hard at the school tip.

00:47:09:01 - 00:47:13:06
Speaker 3
And yeah, I think that's a good point.

00:47:13:08 - 00:47:31:23
Speaker 2
Jared This has been fantastic. I mean a ton of knowledge. I know that there's a lot of stuff that you have covered that I get constantly asked about and shed even more light on some of the, you know, the process and how to, you know, attack this. And one, the timetable is I really appreciate the conversation. This has been great.

00:47:31:23 - 00:47:53:07
Speaker 2
I think our listeners are going to really enjoy this and and really take it to heart and potentially say, oh, we're behind, you know, maybe we need to get get the ball rolling if, you know, hey, we should have started this already and, you know, Oh, okay. So really greatly appreciate you coming on. If any of our listeners do want to reach out to you, they want to, you know, get in touch with you.

00:47:53:07 - 00:47:55:14
Speaker 2
What's the best way for them to do that?

00:47:55:16 - 00:48:25:12
Speaker 3
So right now, it's real simple Minds, Viacom, mind Spire, one word and go fill out our contact form. And if you mentioned that you heard us on this podcast will take 10% of any package we have very sort of standard package rates, 15 hour package, 25 hour package. We also have guarantees associated with 25 hours and above, meaning they don't go up 100 points for the 25 hour package.

00:48:25:14 - 00:48:48:10
Speaker 3
We'll work with them for free, for around for a little that third test. And if it's still not there, it's money back. So kind of unique. We have this kind of insurance policy. We feel like we we know what we're doing enough to to do that but just go to mine's Viacom fill out the the the contact form and and if you mentioned I heard you know, we want to know if you're hearing us here.

00:48:48:16 - 00:48:51:10
Speaker 3
So it's 10% off any any package.

00:48:51:12 - 00:49:10:20
Speaker 2
Greatly appreciate it. Does that offer to our listeners so yeah if you want to reach out again mine's Viacom and yeah take advantage of there's something you guys need to take advantage of that discount. We greatly appreciate all of our listeners. If this is something for you, don't forget to, to let your heart and his team know this has been another episode of College Knowledge.

00:49:10:20 - 00:49:16:08
Speaker 2
Thank you so much for listening, Chas. Thank you again for joining us and we will see you again next week.

00:49:16:10 - 00:49:41:18
Speaker 1
If you didn't know we have a free crash course on college funding and elite collegiate plan income. This will explain different types of loans, types of financial aid, savings vehicles and much more. Thanks for listening to the College Knowledge podcast with your host, Dave Kozak and Joe Kearns. We hope you enjoyed this week's exploration of higher education sponsored by the College Planning Network and Paradigm Financial Group.

00:49:41:20 - 00:49:43:20
Speaker 1
That's all for this episode. See you next time.