120. Your Ultimate College Admissions Guide: Tips, Strategies, and Scholarships

In this comprehensive episode of the College Knowledge Podcast, hosts Dave Kozak and Julie Kelsheimer cover everything you need to know about successfully navigating the college admissions process, maximizing scholarship opportunities, and making informed decisions for your college journey.

Throughout this episode, you'll gain valuable insights into various aspects of college admissions, including the significance of demonstrated interest, crafting strong applications, choosing the right colleges, and much more.

Join us as we explore the complexities of college admissions, share success stories of students who received full-ride scholarships, and provide expert advice for students and parents seeking to make the most of their college experience.

This all-in-one guide will help you understand the evolving landscape of college admissions, enabling you to approach the process with confidence and achieve your educational goals. Subscribe for more valuable college knowledge and embark on a successful college journey today!

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Transcript

Welcome back to College Knowledge. I'm your host, Dave Kozak, flying solo today. And today we've invited on the show Julie Kelsheimer with great minds advising. Julie, welcome to the show.

00;01;01;05 - 00;01;02;19
Speaker 2
Hi, Dave. Thanks for having me.

00;01;02;22 - 00;01;11;06
Speaker 1
Absolutely. So give us a little background of what you do and who you work for and how you're all connected and then we'll we'll start off on our conversation there.

00;01;11;09 - 00;01;24;15
Speaker 2
Okay, great. So I'm an independent college advisor through great minds, advising where the college advising branch of West Chester Prep, which is a large tutoring and test prep test prep company right outside of New York City.

00;01;24;18 - 00;01;42;19
Speaker 1
Got it. So and Julie, because obviously we're going to talk about college admissions and the kind of battle that students face. Can you give us a little bit of your journey, how you got into this and where did you go to school and how did your kind of process to start helping people in this start?

00;01;42;22 - 00;02;04;28
Speaker 2
Sure. Absolutely. So I got my bachelor's and master's degrees from Northwestern University, and I actually got them in music performance. So I spent a lot of time traveling and singing opera. That's what I was trained to do. And I had a minor in theater. I did really miss teaching, though, and I had taught private voice students during my graduate studies.

00;02;04;28 - 00;02;29;29
Speaker 2
And so after a handful of years of just primarily singing, I came back to Saint Louis, where I'm from, and I became a faculty member at two universities. And so I really got to dig in to working with college students, which are really, really enjoyed. And that became more of my full time position. I also worked in the private realm with a lot of students, so I was able to work with middle schoolers, high schoolers and then in the university setting, the college students.

00;02;30;02 - 00;02;44;20
Speaker 2
And I naturally found myself helping through their college admissions process, and I really, really enjoyed that one on one work with them. And so now I've transitioned into doing that full time. And I think it's kind of a unique perspective having worked with that kind of person along.

00;02;44;22 - 00;03;09;09
Speaker 1
Absolutely. So. And, you know, we talk a lot in this show and really in business in the 20 years of being an entrepreneur about mentorship. And so, you know, I make the case every day that not only do mentors help me in my business and all that, but along the way in life, you find mentors that have a an impact on you.

00;03;09;09 - 00;03;17;20
Speaker 1
And I think you and I both spend a lot of time mentoring young students in doing this the right way. Do you agree with that?

00;03;17;22 - 00;03;35;24
Speaker 2
Oh, I absolutely agree. I think I think students, if you let them, they can trust you. And they really do look to you for guidance, not just academically or college or whatever, but they look to you for time management, for organization, for motivation in their day to day life. It's really I think it's a privilege to be that person for students.

00;03;35;26 - 00;04;01;07
Speaker 1
I agree. And so and I want to dovetail that into a conversation that we do we do a decent amount of work with student athletes, right. Pursuing playing in college. And so one of the things that I learned very early and I was a college athlete went to Franklin Marshall College in Pennsylvania. And so the coaches don't really ever want to talk to the parents.

00;04;01;10 - 00;04;26;21
Speaker 1
Right. And a general rule in the college process is the college doesn't really want to talk to the parents. Right. They really don't. And so the child has to own this whole decision process. And so I think companies like yours and mine do a great job to give them the confidence that they can own it. Right. Because the one thing that I think is lacking is critical decision making, right?

00;04;26;21 - 00;04;42;05
Speaker 1
We don't really teach that as a skill set. And this is a critical decision. Right. I mean, if you think about what we're really asking a student, it's where's the first place you want to go when you move out of your house, your comfort zone? Right. And then what do you want to do for the rest of your life?

00;04;42;05 - 00;05;01;16
Speaker 1
Like, that's the decision we're putting on a 16, 17, 18 year old mind. And we know that the mind's not developed until it's 28 to 30 years old, maybe 26 if you're ahead of the curve. But so how much time do you spend? And I love how you put it, the time management, the mentorship, and like we're helping them in this process.

00;05;01;18 - 00;05;14;22
Speaker 1
How much time do you spend on helping students come to the conclusion they have to make a decision? Because we're a big punt society when it comes to decisions right now. We like to just now we'll just put our head in the sand and we'll push that one down the road.

00;05;14;25 - 00;05;31;07
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. Well, like you said, colleges don't want to talk to the parents. The parents and the families are a huge part of this decision. They have to be. But what we try to work with when we work with a student is not just, you know, which courses are you choosing or how are we going to apply, What's your strategic positioning?

00;05;31;08 - 00;05;49;12
Speaker 2
We're working on executive functioning and on demonstrated interests. So this is saying if you're passionate about a school or you're passionate about something, you as the student have to be the one to show your interest. You need to show up to the college fair. You need to shake hands with the admissions rep and you need to be the one to follow up with a thank you email, etc..

00;05;49;14 - 00;06;05;20
Speaker 2
Colleges take note of that not just the interest, but the responsibility on the part of the student. So I think part of my job as advisor too, is to guide them in that way. And it should be a genuine interest. I mean, if they're truly excited by a school, you want them to follow through with that.

00;06;05;22 - 00;06;28;28
Speaker 1
Yeah. And we're teaching those skill sets. You're teaching. Those are those are lifetime skill sets, right? You and someone does a kind deed or has a good interaction. It's the natural tendency to thank them for the interaction, whether it be email or written note or whatever. So that is a fantastic point you make on the kind of a follow through nature of things and the you have to take action.

00;06;28;28 - 00;07;08;11
Speaker 1
And I want to dial back to the demonstrated interest component because for so long it was a waning environment of demonstrated interest and everybody kind of just like and they started, they started kind of not taking it into consideration or it was it was just diminishing. Right now, sudden COVID hits and now the only way that they can understand demonstrated interest and that the for the listeners, the colleges did something that they were forced to do under COVID restrictions, which was they had to change how they did their admissions process.

00;07;08;11 - 00;07;28;03
Speaker 1
It was a upheaval of everything that we knew for so long. Right. And in doing so, they sort of modern modernized their technology and they started dialing into analytics and they started doing what every good business does and measures the output, the return, the open rates, the click rates, the attendance rates and things like that to find this demonstrated interest.

00;07;28;05 - 00;07;51;07
Speaker 1
And so now you see and and they took away the S.A.T. and they started like every school went test optional for three years. And now schools are starting to come back online where they're going. No, we need that number back in our lives. But demonstrated interest became a game changer for people. And so and I want to talk about yield for a second, because I know this, and I'm sure you do, but I want to educate the listeners.

00;07;51;09 - 00;08;12;08
Speaker 1
But the yield for a college, right. If you if you if you're looking at U.S. News and World Report, are you looking in niche or you're looking at all of these places that rank schools and they give you a first through, you know, hundred in all different categories, schools are fighting for those rankings, right? And the way they fight for the rank is their yield percentages.

00;08;12;08 - 00;08;42;25
Speaker 1
And so what yield is, is the idea that they want to give out as few exceptions, acceptances as they possibly can to get their beds filled. Right. So that's the business end of the deal. But what that means is that if if you're a student that has all the marks, all the grades and has done the background to get into the school, but you show no interest, they have an algorithm that kicks out and says this person never attended the thing, don't offer because the probability of them attending is very low.

00;08;42;28 - 00;08;47;05
Speaker 1
Right? And so demonstrated interest comes back into play in a huge way now.

00;08;47;07 - 00;09;09;07
Speaker 2
Yeah, it does. And I and I think I think it does vary per school. I mean there are some for sure where they they greatly take note of the demonstrated interest. There's others where they might notice it, but it doesn't go beyond that. But I always urge students like why not? Especially if we're focusing in on these schools that are there early decision one or two or some of these early action schools, it's like it's really not going to hurt you.

00;09;09;09 - 00;09;21;21
Speaker 2
Another thing colleges do is they can track who opens emails, they can track who clicks on links. And so if you're kind of avoiding them or ignoring the things they're sending your way, you're really only hurting yourself in the long haul.

00;09;21;23 - 00;09;40;29
Speaker 1
Yeah, no doubt. So in the course of of helping a student kind of pick the grand list of schools. Right. How many schools do you start with and whittled down? And then where do you guys find that sweet spot? Like, how many schools should a student apply to, in your opinion?

00;09;41;01 - 00;10;00;21
Speaker 2
So as an advisor, I start just on my own end with like a y. I cast a wide net of schools that I consider for a student, and then it becomes smaller and smaller and smaller. And the goal with the student and my interaction with the student is to focus in on those early apply options. So there's a lot of value in early decision.

00;10;00;21 - 00;10;22;29
Speaker 2
Early decision to some schools have single choice, early action, restrictive early action. There's a lot of value there because the acceptance rate is typically much higher. So the percentage rate can be much higher if you apply early. So we focus in on, okay, if something is standing out to you as a place you want to be and are meeting the metrics, you're exceeding the extracurriculars, etc., you have a good profile for that school.

00;10;23;02 - 00;10;46;28
Speaker 2
Let's make that the primary focus and then we have an early acceptance pool and then we have a regular decision. So I think it's about quality more than quantity. I know there students and parents and families that want to apply to 30 or 40 schools, but I like to rein it in to maybe those 10 to 12 and say, okay, like let's focus on what really matters here and let's make every application great.

00;10;47;00 - 00;11;15;14
Speaker 1
And and I want to ask a question. I don't know if you know this or not, but it's a necessary question from my perspective, because I deal a lot on the financial side of college, the genetic makeup of the families you deal with. Are you dealing with higher end families? We call them category one twos and threes. And I'll give you a quick reference and then maybe you can give me some insight because the advice varies based on that category one's under 100 K, just a gross income, like they're going to get financial need.

00;11;15;14 - 00;11;27;06
Speaker 1
They've got to look at different schools. Category two is your middle America. So 100 K to let's say 350 K adjusted gross income with some assets. And then category three is above that. Where are you guys playing in this game?

00;11;27;09 - 00;11;39;21
Speaker 2
The majority of our clients are two or three, I would say. That being said, we have expanded a lot more offerings to make it accessible to a lot more people. We do have some first gen students. We have a wide variety.

00;11;39;24 - 00;12;00;28
Speaker 1
Got it. And the reason I ask that is not not to isolate anything, it's just the advice in the college admissions side. Right. We we say if you if you picture a Venn diagram with three circles, it's the academic fit, it's the social fit and it's the financial fit. Right. And finding that right fit school is the one that hits those three.

00;12;00;28 - 00;12;27;27
Speaker 1
From our perspective. And that's why I think our our unique kind of twist on this in what we do is we're bringing finance to the table right off the bat. And there's a there's an issue in not doing that. And this is not an issue of of business models or anything. What what I'm more meaning to talk about is if you go to your school's guidance counselor.

00;12;28;01 - 00;12;50;15
Speaker 1
Right. And I don't discredit them or dismiss them as valuable resources. Right. Because they are they have a lot of tools and stuff that they can use, but that person can never have a candid financial conversation with a family. So they can give you advice on maybe the best school you could get into, but have no idea whether you could actually afford to go there or what the debt situation is going to be on the way out.

00;12;50;15 - 00;13;02;06
Speaker 1
And so some of the conversation, it has to be around money, right? Because if it's not a year, you're talking about the debt. The debt crisis with college is real.

00;13;02;08 - 00;13;22;20
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think one thing we pride ourselves on is we like to get kids applications so strong and so unique that a lot of times merit based aid does just kind of pour into these kids. A couple application cycles ago, we had a girl that just received an entire full ride to Duke. She didn't apply for anything special.

00;13;22;20 - 00;13;40;04
Speaker 2
She didn't do anything special other than she really presented an excellent application and she ended up getting offers like this from a lot of people. And that happens almost every single cycle. And then, of course, there's people like you, thank goodness, that help out with this conversation, too, because it does have to be part of the discussion. Absolutely.

00;13;40;09 - 00;13;48;21
Speaker 1
And and I think that's a great point you make and one that I think people they don't understand it.

00;13;48;23 - 00;14;10;10
Speaker 1
The amount of times I hear from people, there's no money in hire. You can't get money like it's all it's all just loans. It's all just money. Have to pay back. We talk about green money and red money. Green money's free money. Red money's money that has to be returned. But these schools. Right. If you if you think about the demographic environment that they're in, we have less students going to college.

00;14;10;12 - 00;14;31;01
Speaker 1
We still have the same amount of colleges. We're starting to see some consolidation rate. Schools are buying up other schools. And they're you know, you're we're watching some of that happen. But some of these institutions that are 203 hundred years old have massive endowment funds. They have money to give their they have to fill their their seats and they have to do it in a way that creates a solvent class.

00;14;31;01 - 00;14;39;19
Speaker 1
Right? Each class has to be solvent. It has to hit the bottom line. So to go into this thinking there is no money is a is foolish right?

00;14;39;22 - 00;14;40;15
Speaker 2
Oh, absolutely.

00;14;40;21 - 00;15;06;00
Speaker 1
And and the way you put it, I love it in creating that ideal, you know, applicant and resumé essay all of the components that someone gets to judge you on take the time to do it because you don't know who's on the other end of reading that that can just check the box or say this is my nomination for this scholarship.

00;15;06;00 - 00;15;25;28
Speaker 1
Right? So in your opinion, what is the most critical thing to focus on for the student? Is it the application itself? Is it the extracurriculars? Is it the essay? Is it the the test scores, the GPA coming to give me the your opinion here?

00;15;26;00 - 00;15;46;15
Speaker 2
Oh, I wish there was only one. It would make life, but so much easier, I think, in order to get to the point where we are creating a strong application. So, you know, going into that senior year, the three years prior, have to have had the most value. And so I would say, yes, metrics wise, colleges are looking at the GPA.

00;15;46;15 - 00;16;08;09
Speaker 2
They want to know that for whatever their tier of university is, you have matched the course, the rigor and the standards that they have. And of course, people looking at top ten, those are going to be different than people looking at top hundred. Yeah, but I will say in today's world, your resume, your extracurriculars almost have to show that you're an expert in your primary area of interest.

00;16;08;09 - 00;16;27;00
Speaker 2
So if we have a student interested in psychology, for instance, we want to know that from ninth grade on, a lot of what they're doing is focused in on their interest in helping them grow in leadership within their interests. So they're starting a brand new club or organization. They're potentially conducting research with the university professor, their sophomore and junior year.

00;16;27;03 - 00;16;46;20
Speaker 2
They're doing really high value things and every year it's getting a little higher and a little higher so that they're showing a college like, I genuinely care about this. I in fact, spent three years of my life doing this to prepare to go to your university. So I would say it's the the resumé and the GPA are kind of the primary things to consider.

00;16;46;22 - 00;17;05;28
Speaker 1
Got it. And I love it because the question that I think is if I'm on a soccer field or baseball field or staff, I have four children. So I'm constantly on coaching things. And the question that I get often is like, well, how many how many extracurriculars does my child need to do? And I'm like, You don't get it.

00;17;05;28 - 00;17;26;17
Speaker 1
It's not about how many. It's about how deep. It's about how involved they are, right? They want to see that progression from joining a club freshman year to being on the board sophomore year to to creating a new event junior year and to being in leadership roles. They want to see a progression in whatever. And I love how you put it to me, an area of interest, right?

00;17;26;19 - 00;17;59;17
Speaker 2
Oh yeah. It's important to identify that early too. I think sometimes people think, Well, I like these five things equally and it's like, well, really, you know, my job as an advisor is to, to find the most common themes and the intersection of common themes so that we can say, okay, let's really focus your time, because gone are the days of I'm on the tennis team and I babysit and I'm in the school play and I walk dogs on weekends and I like we're out of that application world and more into what do you care about why and let's increase your value there.

00;17;59;19 - 00;18;11;13
Speaker 1
And and so do you ever advise that when you do have that passion and you prove it on paper through your application, that that becomes the subject of an essay?

00;18;11;15 - 00;18;33;04
Speaker 2
Well, the essay is an interesting topic because it should ideally, the personal essay should combine. Yeah, that interest that primary interest. But how it has shown its face in your life. So we like to take a specific story about your life, something that sets you apart, that also shows these admissions officers. Oh, wow. So this primary academic interest actually is part of the personal life, too.

00;18;33;04 - 00;18;36;09
Speaker 2
Or here is how the student let this play out in their life.

00;18;36;12 - 00;19;02;25
Speaker 1
Yeah, we all we always talk about the passion that they need to see the passion flow and they all honestly, some of the best essays I have read or edited or worked on with students have been essays of like it was talking about mountain biking and the just the way they you could you could feel a you're riding down a mountain in this essay and the passion comes through.

00;19;03;01 - 00;19;20;15
Speaker 1
Oh yeah I'll never forget the the most powerful intro I ever read on an essay was I remember the first time I held a human brain that was the first sentence of the essay. And the kid was going for pathology. So they went to be premium histology and like, you know, you're going to okay, what did this actually happen?

00;19;20;19 - 00;19;40;27
Speaker 1
But it grabs you so hard and then it talks about how and, you know, for this particular student, he was exposed and able to go into a lab in his, you know, sophomore and junior year of high school. And so that perfectly creates that intersection that you're talking about, where you have the you know, the passion is both personal and academic.

00;19;41;00 - 00;19;56;24
Speaker 2
Well, yeah. And they do have to be connected. We had a student once write an essay and it was about, you know, you're caught like in the middle of her playing soccer. She's on a soccer field and she sees that someone on the field gets a head injury and all of a sudden now we transition out of the soccer field into her study of neuroscience.

00;19;56;24 - 00;20;15;24
Speaker 2
And she independently researched what a concussion means and how it affects a person. Long and short term, etc.. So we know now she's an athlete, This is her passion, but she wants to use her talent and her skill to also study the neurology behind athletic injury perhaps. So yeah, it definitely combines both.

00;20;15;26 - 00;20;23;15
Speaker 1
All right. So some questions for you. The best time to start planning for college?

00;20;23;17 - 00;20;52;04
Speaker 2
Well, it depends on the student, of course, and also on the goals. We always talk about goals. We always talk about what are you seeking? So I would say probably the most the most successful student we have are those that start early with us. So ninth or 10th graders we have. And the reason for that is because we can help them independent or individually, rather identify that narrative and then say, okay, here are our resources and people we can connect you with are ways we can help you reach out to start that resume building process.

00;20;52;11 - 00;21;11;28
Speaker 2
We also guide students on course selection. So what courses can you take that are going to suit you, not just fill your time? So really, we're getting that Hands-On experience with them from ninth and 10th grade. That being said, we have people come to us at the end of 11th grade and we take what they have and we pull them X value out of it and we help them.

00;21;11;28 - 00;21;14;06
Speaker 2
But I would say earlier is better.

00;21;14;09 - 00;21;33;17
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I mean, just just as a as a kind of a side to that conversation. Right. Anything that is a critical decision the earlier you can start consideration towards that outcome. Right. Right. Well what do I really need to be thinking about? I don't know what I want to do. Well, let's let's help you figure that out.

00;21;33;19 - 00;21;50;01
Speaker 1
And that journey takes time, right? Absolutely. If you're if you if you have time to experience things, you have time to understand what you like and don't like. But if you don't and I talk about all the time. So as a coach, I talk about going into everything eyes up right now, making just your eyes are open, you're paying attention.

00;21;50;01 - 00;22;12;28
Speaker 1
Whether you're on a baseball field, a football field doesn't matter. Eyes up. Right? Right. And I think life in general, you got to go and eyes up. Right. Pay attention to what's going on around you. And these there are moments that can turn into the passion. And if you're not paying attention to the moment and you're not and you're not letting that intrigue ping like settle in and and wow, that's interesting.

00;22;12;28 - 00;22;18;02
Speaker 1
I if you don't embrace that and go after that, you may miss it. Right.

00;22;18;05 - 00;22;19;28
Speaker 2
And so it's.

00;22;20;01 - 00;22;20;18
Speaker 1
Good.

00;22;20;20 - 00;22;46;18
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, I was just going to say we have students keep journals for this reason. We say, you know, it doesn't need to be this expansive. I'm writing a novel, but it needs to be. Is this is a moment that happened today that stood out to me and here's why. And not only does it help students to identify what they're interested in it, also, we use that for content, for essays, supplemental essays, personal essays, because those are tangible, descriptive things that stood out to them as being valuable to them.

00;22;46;18 - 00;22;48;05
Speaker 2
So I agree with you entirely.

00;22;48;07 - 00;23;13;05
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think on that same kind of level, right. If you're keeping a journal and you're you're paying attention to the things that are going on in your, you get an opportunity to reflect back. Right. And so, know, you get to this, you get to this rat race and we can talk we'll talk about the senior year, like the push where it just becomes like all on you're in the heat of this.

00;23;13;05 - 00;23;35;13
Speaker 1
You've got deadlines is the first time you've had big projects and big deadlines and like this is the real deadline and, you know, the stress and anxiety build up and the kid doesn't want to talk to the parent. And what will bring that where we can really have some benefit there. But at the same time, if you don't have that kind of reflective look back, that can that can only exaggerate the stress of the situation.

00;23;35;16 - 00;23;42;12
Speaker 1
Right. So getting kids to do journals and pay attention to things makes takes some of the stress out of this situation.

00;23;42;14 - 00;23;58;22
Speaker 2
Yeah, I noticed you had I listened to an episode you and Joe did about Summer how to utilize your summer, and that was something really valuable. You said it's like, think back three years. Do you remember like within detail something that happened? And no, I mean, the answer is no. For all of us, unless it was this like massive part of our life.

00;23;58;24 - 00;24;03;16
Speaker 2
And yet, like, what a shame all the moments we missed because we don't take them.

00;24;03;18 - 00;24;29;13
Speaker 1
And again, I'm not I'm not saying that these small moments will make or break by writing them down. What I'm saying is you can reflect back the the memory jog and the reflection back. It it may be something that happened two summers ago that you never even you never gave consideration to. And then two summers later, you hit that chord and you're like, Man, now I know what was going on there.

00;24;29;13 - 00;24;53;13
Speaker 1
And now it has a more meaningful impact, right? So I love that all right. In a in a in a broad kind of spectrum, Right. You guys have the seven steps to the college application process for parents and students. What are they? Look out for us. And if there's a timetable, please enter that into the conversation as well.

00;24;53;15 - 00;25;09;21
Speaker 2
Absolutely. So I, I like to think that there's seven primary things that go into creating a successful application when they start. How they start is really based on when we start working with a student or a student starts doing this independently. So the first and I'm just going to list them and if you want to ask more, feel free.

00;25;09;21 - 00;25;33;17
Speaker 2
But the truth would be the narrative or the resumé building. The second would be the academic strategy. That specifically has to do with course selection and rigor. The third would be your testing strategy. So your S.A.T. or A.C.T. process, the fourth would be rec letters, guidance counselor, and often 1 to 2 teachers. The fifth is the school selection or the college list creation.

00;25;33;19 - 00;25;45;23
Speaker 2
The six. The sixth would be the personal and supplemental essays and then the seventh would be your strategic positioning or your major declaration per school. So that is sort of in a nutshell. Here's what this process looks like.

00;25;45;25 - 00;26;06;22
Speaker 1
Thank you guys for being a part of college knowledge. Just a reminder, if you're sending your student to school, visit elite collegiate planning dot com for free resources and to book a free consultation and the I think the point we were talking about prior to this was the earlier we can get on that I mean these these seem like oh let's just seven things I can do it.

00;26;06;24 - 00;26;27;18
Speaker 1
You know, I mean, the narrative itself takes an incredible amount of time. And it also, you know, we're in the academic world, students are learning this Move on, learn this, move on, learn this. This is not a learn this move on process. This is an entire build process where you're reflecting back to all the things that you did.

00;26;27;18 - 00;26;57;18
Speaker 1
So they they take a lot of time from the academic standpoint. Right. And I'd love your opinion on this. The I've talked to admissions officers, I've interviewed all kinds of people in this world. What how much is too much in the academic rigor environment where I'm seeing kids, they're sleep deprived, they're anxious, they're stressed out, they're taken, you know, all of the hardest classes are for what is the question.

00;26;57;18 - 00;27;01;00
Speaker 1
So coming back is, when's enough? Enough?

00;27;01;02 - 00;27;28;22
Speaker 2
Yeah, you have to. It's different per student. But what you have to do is look at the personality of the student and you have to look at the student's goals. So if a student seems like they will have what it takes to do like a top ten, top 15 type of school, we look at the common data set, we look at the university website and we see, okay, what is what is kind of the type of student they're accepting here, the GPA, the course, rigor, the extracurriculars, etc..

00;27;28;24 - 00;27;45;05
Speaker 2
And then we say to that student, okay, so, you know, your rigor has to be pretty high for this school, but we have to focus the river, the rigor. I think sometimes people think, Oh, I'm going to do AP stats and I'm going to do A.P. bio, I'm going to do a cam, and then I'm going to do, you know, AP language and I'm going to.

00;27;45;08 - 00;28;04;00
Speaker 2
But if you're focused to say Spanish or French and you want to focus in on that language, why are you taking 2 to 3 math APIs in a year? You know, it doesn't it doesn't help them really in any way. In fact, we find that too much rigor in areas that don't matter can hurt because, like you said, you're up till two and three in the morning studying.

00;28;04;03 - 00;28;21;19
Speaker 2
You're waking up the next day. You don't do well on the test because what do you know? You got more sleep. ET cetera. So it's it's it's the appropriate amount of rigor to feed your narrative and to maintain a high GPA. If your rigor is making your GPA drop, it is no longer valuable to you.

00;28;21;21 - 00;28;40;27
Speaker 1
Bingo. I love it. And I want to just make an impact on a point you made. We're defining the narrative and now we're talking about academic pursuit and we're talking about rigor. And it all comes back to the narrative. And so if you're not having that built and then you're not you're not working on this over a longer period of time, you're going to miss pieces of it.

00;28;40;27 - 00;28;58;18
Speaker 1
Right now, I'm not going to say that you're not going to get into school or it has nothing to do with whether you get into school or not. It's if you have a driven desire to go to a particular subset started in motion, right? Absolutely. It's not about like, yeah, you can go to college, I can get you into school.

00;28;58;18 - 00;29;09;20
Speaker 1
I can promise I can get most people into a school. Right. It's a matter of are you getting in the school you want for the major, You want to do the thing you want and have you actually exercised what you want? And that's where the narrative to me comes in.

00;29;09;23 - 00;29;11;08
Speaker 2
Yeah, of course.

00;29;11;10 - 00;29;27;20
Speaker 1
So I'm going to I'm going to say it more simply, I think, and summarize your point and correct me if I'm wrong, the moment the academic rigor begins to diminish the GPA, you have failed at the mission of of maintaining kind of your your narrative.

00;29;27;22 - 00;29;31;27
Speaker 2
Right, right, right. You probably need to take a look at your courses and say, is all this relevant?

00;29;32;00 - 00;30;01;28
Speaker 1
Yeah. And and I will tell this to all the parents out there and I've heard it from admissions officers, I've heard it from the divisional people that travel around and represent schools, the representatives, I've heard it from the deans of of honors colleges and everything else. If you're going to pursue an engineering degree. Right. They would like to see you move up in the rigor of the curriculum offered in the math and the sciences.

00;30;02;04 - 00;30;35;19
Speaker 1
Of course, they're not necessarily no, I'm not saying don't take higher end English and learn how to write and communicate because those are hard and soft skills that are absolutely necessary. But that's not going to affect the overall acceptance or rejection from a school. So if you go and say, I need to take six AP classes, which I think is entirely too many, but you do it, and two of them, one's history and one's English and you're getting CS in AP history in English because you're a math minded brain and going for engineering, you're not doing yourself any benefit.

00;30;35;21 - 00;30;45;05
Speaker 2
No, you're not. Or if you're getting a C in AP physics as an engineering mind person because of all the AP histories you're taking. Yeah, you're, you're not helping yourself at all.

00;30;45;07 - 00;31;08;09
Speaker 1
And, and I think I asked this question and I forget which interview it was, but I ask the question specifically to the chair of the department, and I said, you know, if would you rather have a be in an AP or an in a in an honors? And they said, I would rather have a being an AP. But if you go much below that, we'd rather have you in the honors.

00;31;08;12 - 00;31;22;00
Speaker 1
Right. And so there the A B is okay, right? Because it shows it shows a challenging curriculum. It shows you're working at it, but you get a C and you've you've essentially negated the reason to even take the AP.

00;31;22;02 - 00;31;33;13
Speaker 2
Well and I think yeah. And, and of course different tiers of schools have different requirements. But I think the question I think the kind of more snarky sometimes answer you'll get is what we want. And the AP so.

00;31;33;16 - 00;31;34;16
Speaker 1
Well yeah, no, no.

00;31;34;19 - 00;31;46;22
Speaker 2
The idea in the honors give us the in the AP which okay, so we try for that of course. But yeah, you're right. It's a you have to be smart when you're choosing your courses.

00;31;46;24 - 00;32;17;17
Speaker 1
So what are some of the things that that to consider when you're adding a resumé that didn't matter previously and this is more this is position to the parents because what happened 25 years ago does not exist today. We are in a different environment. We're we're in a different world altogether. We've come through some some interesting times, but admissions is a different ballgame and higher ed is a different ballgame than it was in price and in everything.

00;32;17;21 - 00;32;24;27
Speaker 1
So what some of the stuff that that you need to consider in high school, the resume that didn't happen previously.

00;32;25;00 - 00;32;47;18
Speaker 2
Yeah. I'm so glad you said that, because parents can really help their students and relate more to their student. I think if they understand the you know, the well-rounded, honest actor is not as valuable anymore. So students need to, like I said, be honing in on their specific interests or their intersection of interests. So, for instance, we have a student interested in entrepreneurship and he's starting his own business.

00;32;47;20 - 00;33;09;12
Speaker 2
We have students interested in science and they, for three out of their four years of high school, are researching actively with university level professors. We have people interested in journalism and they are the assistant or the intern to somebody at a major publication. So it's it's saying, okay, we don't start there. You're not a freshman and now you have this job.

00;33;09;12 - 00;33;38;01
Speaker 2
We're saying let's get our grounding in an area. And then hopefully with every semester, with every summer, we're increasing our leadership role or our impact in that field. Another thing to consider, too, is because it's so competitive to get into college now, because they're looking for experts, you have to weed out the extracurriculars that don't serve you. And this is a hard conversation to have with some students because sometimes that involves athletics or it involves the arts.

00;33;38;01 - 00;33;57;16
Speaker 2
You know, if you're not focused, you're not going to be a recruited athlete. You now have essentially no return on investment. I'm playing that sport. So it's balancing the mental and the personal, wanting to do that with, well, how much time out of your life is this taking such that now I can't create a strong resume because all I do is go to practice all day?

00;33;57;18 - 00;33;59;20
Speaker 2
It depends on the circumstance.

00;33;59;22 - 00;34;20;08
Speaker 1
Well, and there's a there was another conversation I had, and man, I wish I had better recall as to who I was interviewing when I asked the question. But but I said to and this was an admissions officer and it was okay. So job no job sports, no sports clubs, no clubs. And like, what's the because this was about the well-rounded ness.

00;34;20;08 - 00;34;39;14
Speaker 1
And and he said his answer was, I think the best I've received yet, which was if you're going to play a sport, I want to see you go from freshman to J.V. to varsity. It's showing the sand and maybe you get to be a captain, man. You don't have to be the best athlete do that. But it's showing that same kind of discipline, growth, team oriented nature.

00;34;39;14 - 00;34;59;16
Speaker 1
You're showing it. And then he turned around and said, and work. Some kids don't have an option to play. Some kids don't. They don't. Their lifestyle does not allow they have to earn money or they can't they can't do things right because they're underprivileged. Whatever it is does matter. Said want to see that they stay at a job that they can take instruction that they don't bounce from.

00;34;59;16 - 00;35;16;13
Speaker 1
Like I was here I was here is here. They they stayed the course. They got some raises and they they put in their time and discipline and then it was the same answer to the clubs like the days of you're in robotics and you're in this and you're in that and they don't want to see it. It doesn't do anything to your advantage.

00;35;16;13 - 00;35;38;23
Speaker 1
It's about the depth with which you are involved in what you're involved in. And I'll give a perfect scenario of of the sport thing, right? I was a baseball player. I was supposed to at the time William and Mary was the I. That's where I was going. And it all fell through in the in the last hour. And so I ended up at Franklin Marshall and I played baseball.

00;35;38;26 - 00;36;00;13
Speaker 1
But I got to a point where that fandom where, you know, I was a Division three baseball player. I loved it. But I also had a very rigorous double major and I needed hours in the library. And if something was going to give and, you know, baseball ended up given and now I, I back and coached it a lot in my life and did private instruction after the fact.

00;36;00;13 - 00;36;14;24
Speaker 1
But the idea is you're going to have to make that decision at some point. I'm not encouraging anyone to stop playing sports because I believe sports teach as much as anything else. But at the end of the day, you're right. You have to be critical about that stuff, right?

00;36;14;27 - 00;36;35;00
Speaker 2
Yeah. And you have to, like, use it to your advantage. So, for instance, let's say we have a student interested in sports, and it just so happens that they're also interested in health and kinesiology. Wow. Okay. So now your sport actually is aiding you in your admissions angle. Let's use that sport not just because it's a release or you enjoy it or it's social or it's active.

00;36;35;00 - 00;36;41;21
Speaker 2
Let's use it to feed your academic narrative. Now you're killing two birds with one stone, so there's plenty of ways to make it valuable.

00;36;41;23 - 00;36;42;06
Speaker 1
Yeah, no, I.

00;36;42;06 - 00;36;43;29
Speaker 2
Absolutely process that.

00;36;44;02 - 00;37;05;01
Speaker 1
And again, it comes down to the and it comes down to the strategic nature of this process. Right. And here's something else that I want to share with everybody. And I'm sure you've experienced this and if you have a will ask you to share as well. But I have seen kids that didn't necessarily have what I thought academically it would take to get into some schools, get into some schools that they probably shouldn't have.

00;37;05;03 - 00;37;25;04
Speaker 1
And it was because of the critical approach and the strategic approach to getting into that school. Now, I'm not saying you can buck the system. I'm just saying that if you're if you're taking a law, the law if you're playing the long game and you're thinking critically about this, you can build yourself into the ideal candidate for a particular institution.

00;37;25;11 - 00;37;44;20
Speaker 1
It's not going to work at all of them. But but again, I've been like, wow, because I've seen two kids, one that academically had it all knock it in and one that academically was was subpar, but got into that school and it wasn't because clearly the grades weren't weren't the issue at the institution. It was what else they were doing that added to it.

00;37;44;22 - 00;38;11;26
Speaker 2
Right? Absolutely. And I think what I said is one of the steps to think about the strategic positioning or the major declaration that is a really crucial part of this process, because if you want to go to a competitive university and you want to declare the most competitive major within that university, you're limiting your chances hugely. So it's like, okay, maybe I'm not going to do computer science at M.I.T. where it's the acceptance rate is like below 5%.

00;38;11;28 - 00;38;32;09
Speaker 2
What if I did data science or something about like cognitive science or reasoning? So so we're essentially taking a similar course rigor, we're taking similar classes, we're going to college for essentially the similar same thing, but we're not declaring the number one most popular major at that school. Again, it's all strategic.

00;38;32;11 - 00;38;57;04
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. From from your perspective on just kind of switch gears a little bit, but best time to apply to the schools. And because there's I mean, listen, there's you've got your early decision, your early action one early action do some of them are rolling admissions. Some of them are January regular decision day. When do you want to be in the pile of applicants?

00;38;57;07 - 00;39;01;26
Speaker 1
You want to be early, late. What's the what's the strategy there from your perspective?

00;39;01;28 - 00;39;25;13
Speaker 2
It doesn't make sense for every single student to do early decision, but for those that it makes sense for, there's a school that clearly stands out. We like to do that early decision school so that November one deadline, I think at American University last year, the acceptance rate for the early admit pool was like 85%, as opposed to a much lower general acceptance rate.

00;39;25;13 - 00;39;47;07
Speaker 2
So it's sort of if if it's clear that there's a school that's standing out to a student, we want to work for that. But I would say any school that offers early action put their application in early action as opposed to the regular decision, because the admissions officers can give you a little bit more time. It's non-binding, so you can take it or leave it if you get the acceptance.

00;39;47;09 - 00;40;04;20
Speaker 2
But again, those acceptance percentages still remain a little bit higher than the regular pool. So the only time we would really advise like regular decision is if it's a school that doesn't have an early action option, it's really just your regular decision or rolling or something like that. But the earlier the better.

00;40;04;23 - 00;40;30;22
Speaker 1
Perfectly said. And just as a as a perspective for families that are listening early action shows more than just the resume, right? It shows an intention. It shows a timeliness. It shows we talked about executive functioning, the beginning, the show. That's part of it, right? I'm ahead of the deadline. I've met the requirements I needed to meet and I did it.

00;40;30;25 - 00;40;42;27
Speaker 1
And I'm more than anything a motivated card you wait and submitted on January 29th, January 30th, January 31st. Just I just got it in on the deadline. You're sending a message?

00;40;43;00 - 00;40;56;29
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. And schools are flattered by it and like, oh, this especially those early decision or those single choice, early action, etc., they're like, Wow, okay, so this student's making it pretty clear this is where they want to be. Let's give them the time of day and target set, you know.

00;40;57;01 - 00;41;09;19
Speaker 1
And they, they again, I love the point you made, too, is that the admissions officer that is tasked with making the decision gets a little bit more time because they're not flooded with 30,000 applications at that point. You know.

00;41;09;21 - 00;41;12;02
Speaker 2
Absolutely.

00;41;12;04 - 00;41;27;10
Speaker 1
So in the end, when you're giving someone a early decision, are you guys talking at all about the expense outcome of that, as you say, hey, you go early decision, Like, here's some things you got to know.

00;41;27;12 - 00;41;45;03
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's all laid on the line for families. And one of the good things about applying early decision is both the parent and the guidance counselor have to sign off on this. So this is not a decision taken lightly. This is something that's discussed from a just from admissions standpoint. Do you meet the criteria for this? Are you a good candidate for this?

00;41;45;03 - 00;42;00;06
Speaker 2
And here's the financial obligation are going to be under is that it's binding. So if you're getting in you're going and you're you're understanding that I can afford to go here. I've made a plan to go here. So it's not to be taken lightly, but it's all discussed at up time.

00;42;00;08 - 00;42;21;10
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. And I wanted to make sure I just wanted you to say it so it wasn't coming from me like that on record again. Well, if you do go early decision and it will increase your chances of acceptance there's no doubt on the admissions side, it gives you a leg up where you might not otherwise get into the regular pool because there are less offers to make at that point.

00;42;21;12 - 00;42;44;08
Speaker 1
It gives you that. But there is certainly a like, hey, if they say yes, you're saying yes, that means you're paying what you're asked to pay to go to an institution. Are there anything that you've experienced that are sort of modifications or changes that have occurred as you've been involved in this over the course of of the last several years?

00;42;44;10 - 00;42;48;26
Speaker 1
Or what have you noticed the most that is that is kind of shifting on this?

00;42;48;28 - 00;43;11;19
Speaker 2
Well, college is certainly not becoming less competitive A and B, I think the most recent thing is that affirmative action ruling had just happened in the Supreme Court. So what has the biggest shift in this current application cycle are? The essays are vastly different now. So if you look at the supplemental essays for schools, there are some schools that didn't have supplemental essays before that now do.

00;43;11;22 - 00;43;31;00
Speaker 2
They're schools that had the same kind of standard essays for years that are now completely the prompts are completely different. And so what you notice is a lot of schools are trying to get as much info from these candidates as they can. So it creates you know, it is it is a big full time job to fill out these these essays and to do it accurately.

00;43;31;00 - 00;43;34;17
Speaker 2
So that's definitely a a recent shift we've seen.

00;43;34;20 - 00;44;11;17
Speaker 1
Well, and to add to that, the what the federal government is also doing with the FAFSA and the CSS profile where it really just the FAFSA, but they're minimizing the amount of information now that a college is going to receive. And the colleges have to get a little bit more strategic in how they look at information. Right. And I believe you're going to see a large shift of schools going from just FAFSA, only to see us as profile schools because see us as profile still asks all the questions that these schools based their entire financial aid system on and, you know, if you think about the funding, financial aid is any any money that you

00;44;11;17 - 00;44;32;10
Speaker 1
get from scholarships, grants doesn't matter. Any money that is supporting you in going to college is considered financial aid, whether it's loan from the federal government, scholarships and grants from the schools. When you're giving out large buckets of money and you reduce the information that you used to give that out based on the schools are going to have to make shifts in that right.

00;44;32;11 - 00;44;47;16
Speaker 1
And so I think it's an opportune opportunistic time right now to get better deals. And you may have otherwise because the schools are kind of going, well, I, I guess we got to give some money out like we got we got to do this to get these these applicants to come, because as you talked about, the competitive nature of it is real.

00;44;47;16 - 00;45;05;26
Speaker 1
So the students are the are the are the the buyers and the parents are the buyers. And the schools have to market themselves to these people. And what's the easiest way to leverage somebody is to make it less expensive than you thought it was going to be. And okay, I'm taking that It's kind of efficiency of the dollar thing going on.

00;45;05;29 - 00;45;06;29
Speaker 2
Absolutely.

00;45;07;02 - 00;45;15;26
Speaker 1
Are there hidden factors that admissions officers look for? Like what's the what's the stuff in the periphery that people may not think about?

00;45;15;28 - 00;45;37;20
Speaker 2
I don't know if if there's anything hidden or that they're keeping. But I think that part of this goes back to that demonstrated interest is that they just assume they're paying attention to it. Just assume that even if they don't put it out there, like, you know, come see us or click on the email like you, even if it's not in your face, you should still be doing it because, like it not, they're noticing it.

00;45;37;23 - 00;46;06;01
Speaker 2
And another thing is anytime something is optional when it comes to admissions, especially like I'm talking in terms of like an interview, do it, ask to do it right, especially these evaluative ones which are typically given by alums or even admissions officers themselves, you know, do the interview, prepare for the interview, treat it like it's a professional job interview, because in that circumstance, optional actually isn't or shouldn't be seen that way.

00;46;06;03 - 00;46;08;15
Speaker 2
So pay close attention to stuff like that.

00;46;08;17 - 00;46;27;18
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's optional. Only if you don't want to go. I mean, the end result is they're looking to see, are you really motivated? That's and when I talk about the algorithms that they're using, it's like, okay, the person visited the school, check that box. The person opened this email, the person was on this live, Facebook live, the person was on this this event.

00;46;27;18 - 00;46;47;06
Speaker 1
The person did an interview like, okay, they did everything that was offered to them to engage with our institution. There's a high probability of that person is interested because they're tracking these metrics every year. And so when they start to see like a change, you know, if you if you click the five boxes, you've got a 89% likelihood of going.

00;46;47;12 - 00;46;52;00
Speaker 1
If you only click two of them, you've got a 25 or 22% and they're watching that stuff.

00;46;52;03 - 00;47;05;27
Speaker 2
Yeah, it doesn't help. And also test optional just keep in mind, yes, test optional. But if your score falls at about the 50th percent or higher for people admitted to that school, send it, send it. It's not to hurt you to do so.

00;47;05;29 - 00;47;10;08
Speaker 1
Absolutely. I had a thought and I it slipped my mind.

00;47;10;09 - 00;47;11;22
Speaker 2
No, I'm sorry.

00;47;11;24 - 00;47;35;07
Speaker 1
No, it's good. It was it was in response to your the the kind of hidden stuff there. I think anything optional is really not optional. If it's actually an institution you want to go to. Do you have you had any experience recently with the safety target and reach school environment that exists? And have you seen a shift, any of that?

00;47;35;09 - 00;47;52;13
Speaker 2
We do like to categorize things in that way. You know, when we're first creating a school list is the safety target in the reach. And I think it's valuable to have schools in each of those. But again, I don't put a ton of weight on like how many are in each category, and let's just apply to everything so that we can get in somewhere.

00;47;52;15 - 00;48;02;13
Speaker 2
It's like, fine, we've got our safety, our target, our reach now let's phone it and then pair it down a little bit to where we think we have the best chance, especially early.

00;48;02;16 - 00;48;21;08
Speaker 1
And I want to make a comment on the safety school. The old version of the safety school doesn't exist anymore, which was you can you're guaranteed to get in if you don't do the demonstrated interest part and you do, and then you just send an application out of the blue. It's not going to work out the way you want.

00;48;21;08 - 00;48;37;00
Speaker 1
You're going to go, I can't believe I did get into the school. So you don't even if it's a safety, a visit target, if it's a reach, treat them the same in the application process. Don't don't go, Oh, well, this is my safety school. So, you know, I don't have to do much other than just go.

00;48;37;02 - 00;48;48;17
Speaker 2
No, no, no. And that's why we say quality over quantity. Because if you're really focused on quantity and you think, Oh, I have all these safeties, it's fine. You're you're probably not producing a great result. It's not going to know without question.

00;48;48;17 - 00;48;57;01
Speaker 1
Love it. All right. Well, we're about out of time. Any any final advice for for parents, students in this process that you'd like to share?

00;48;57;03 - 00;49;20;02
Speaker 2
I just want to say, you know, the guidance counselor going back to that conversation, they have a very important job at some of the larger schools. They have hundreds of students they're dealing with. So I do think that there is some value in in finding some help, like the things that you and I do to cater to the to the interest of the student and to help them bring out the best of who they are to these colleges.

00;49;20;05 - 00;49;30;01
Speaker 2
And I would urge parents and students to, like you said, to start early and to be thinking about what is the interest, what is the goal, and let's let's create the most value of these next few years.

00;49;30;03 - 00;49;48;08
Speaker 1
And parents, if you're listening, right, it's not that we want you out of the process and we want the kid only in the process. The point I'll make to you is that if you show up at the end of their junior year and you come hot and heavy about college and you've had no previous conversation, you are going to face the shut down mode of of an adolescent teenager and they're not going to want to talk to you about it.

00;49;48;08 - 00;49;59;02
Speaker 1
But if you slow play it and you engage and you you don't make it all about college, but you make it all about, you know, the narrative or the things that you're interested in, you're talking that you're having those conversations. It makes it so much easier when you get there.

00;49;59;04 - 00;50;09;13
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think if your child has a passion and you see it and it's clear, feed it, help them, help them to continue with that. Absolutely.

00;50;09;16 - 00;50;13;24
Speaker 1
And Julie, if people want to look you up, where do they go to to find you?

00;50;13;27 - 00;50;28;29
Speaker 2
So you can go to our website Westchester Prep dot com. And within there you will see the college advising and great minds advising. You can kind of read all of our profiles, get to know a little bit more info. We're also on Facebook and Instagram at great minds advising. And you can join our newsletter to.

00;50;29;02 - 00;50;30;13
Speaker 1
Perfect One last.

00;50;30;13 - 00;50;31;20
Speaker 2
Question. Yes, yes.

00;50;31;26 - 00;50;43;23
Speaker 1
Are you working with students and teaching them how to deal with this social media? Oh, yes. And cleaning do we call it cleaning up social media right as they go through this?

00;50;43;25 - 00;51;07;06
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's an important thing to discuss because anybody can find anything about anybody. Right. So it's important to have a clean social media presence. It's important to have an email address that is clean and professional, not silly, or that you're going to regret sending schools. Right. It's just it's important that anything about you online is going to help you and not hurt you.

00;51;07;06 - 00;51;19;02
Speaker 2
And actually, one of the biggest reasons that colleges rescind admission sometimes or take it back is because they find things that they don't like on social media. This happens regularly. So yeah, pay close attention to that. Yeah.

00;51;19;04 - 00;51;36;27
Speaker 1
And we always say if you start if you start on social media and I'm not going to give my opinion of when you should start social media, I'm just saying if you have social media, if from the beginning you think of your social media in terms of if you wouldn't want your principal of your high school or your parents to see it, don't like it, post it, copy it, do it now.

00;51;37;02 - 00;51;37;13
Speaker 2
Don't do.

00;51;37;13 - 00;51;47;24
Speaker 1
It. Be may get things that you're proud of. Awesome stuff. All right, Julie, this has been fantastic. We're going to shut down there. I appreciate your time. Thanks for coming on the show.

00;51;47;27 - 00;51;50;28
Speaker 2
Yeah, thank you, Dave, for having me. It's great conversation.

00;51;51;00 - 00;52;17;09
Speaker 1
All right, guys, This has been college knowledge until next week. We'll catch you. Then we can send your student to the school of their dreams and send you to your dream retirement. Visit us at elite collegiate planning dot com to get started. Thanks for listening to the College Knowledge podcast with your host, Dave Kozak and Joe Kearns. We hope you enjoyed this week's exploration of higher education sponsored by the College Planning Network and Paradigm Financial Group.

00;52;17;11 - 00;52;19;12
Speaker 1
That's all for this episode. See you next time.