123. Exploring the Art and Challenges of Media Production with Professor William Donaruma

Join host Dave Kozak and co-host Joe Kerins in this engaging episode of the College Knowledge Podcast as they sit down with Professor William Donaruma from the University of Notre Dame's Department of Film, Television, and Theater. Explore the fascinating world of media production and gain valuable insights into the industry. Professor Donaruma shares his experiences, from his journey into the field to his transition into teaching. Discover the ever-evolving landscape of film technology and the importance of hands-on learning. Dive into the art and challenges of making media content stand out in today's competitive environment. Learn about the dedication and resilience required for success in this captivating field. Don't miss this humanized conversation about the craft of media production.

Watch Here:
Exploring the Art and Challenges of Media Production with Professor William Donaruma

Video Version of Podcast YouTube:
The College Knowledge Podcast

Follow us on social media:
Instagram
Facebook
LinkedIn

Visit us online:
The College Knowledge Podcast Website
Elite Collegiate Planning

Transcript

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to College Knowledge. I'm your host, Dave Kozak, alongside my co-host, Joe Kerins.

00;00;58;25 - 00;00;59;24
Speaker 2
Good morning, Dave.

00;00;59;27 - 00;01;00;18
Speaker 1
How are you.

00;01;00;19 - 00;01;01;19
Speaker 2
Doing? Well.

00;01;01;21 - 00;01;16;06
Speaker 1
Today, we have the distinguished pleasure of interviewing Professor William Donnarumma from none other than University of Notre Dame and from the Department of Film, Television and Theater. Thank you and welcome to the show.

00;01;16;08 - 00;01;18;21
Speaker 3
Yeah, thanks for having me. This is great.

00;01;18;23 - 00;01;21;18
Speaker 1
So do you, first of all, William or Bill, which do you prefer?

00;01;21;18 - 00;01;27;05
Speaker 3
This slide. All right. So William Shatner kind of thing, like, you know, going, okay.

00;01;27;07 - 00;01;45;12
Speaker 1
Okay, well, I'm glad we made that status then. So obviously, Notre Dame, excellent institution. It's got a reputation for high academic achievement. How did you get into the film production and what was your journey and how did you get to to Notre Dame?

00;01;45;15 - 00;02;04;13
Speaker 3
Well, I actually I came back to Notre Dame, so I graduated from Notre Dame. Okay. What was actually communications and theater at the time? And then I started working in production, both in Florida, in Los Angeles. So I've been doing a number of different jobs, sort of working my way through an industry that a lot of grip electric.

00;02;04;13 - 00;02;27;21
Speaker 3
I did some some stunt work for a while. I did a lot of production management as part of a studio organization at Universal Florida when we first started. So it was, you know, as big as it is now, we actually had a lot of TV shows and things that we're shooting on the lot. After I left there, I, you know, you can kind of get you can't really get burned out.

00;02;27;21 - 00;03;10;20
Speaker 3
You want to do other things. You find your career in one direction, want to do more camera and editing. And then I was in Los Angeles for a while and I was doing some effects lighting work and did some other management things for universal Hollywood and kind of bounced back and forth for a while and then I kind of fell backwards, I think, into this career because they were then looking for somebody, Notre Dame looking for somebody to handle, I think, you know, a very small still but but growing production area and needed somebody that could, you know, do the hands on kind of work in managing their production classes.

00;03;10;22 - 00;03;31;09
Speaker 3
And still I got a call because I was still in touch with people and they knew I was actually working in production. And so it worked out. And I was actually I was on a job, actually, and I was talking about, you know, this job. And my friends were like, Oh, you got to get out of this freelance, you know, rat race, the kind of thing you can go, oh, you know, do this, this and this.

00;03;31;10 - 00;04;01;24
Speaker 3
And so I was fortunate to, I think, fall into it. It was a little hard at first because I was used to getting out and doing more of the travel, doing that, the production, that kind of stuff. Yeah, But then I built it into my own career now because I do a lot of my own work. You know, we were shooting film at the time here and then, you know, moved it into the digital age and then, you know, was able to kind of transition that into, you know, just shooting a lot of my own stuff.

00;04;01;27 - 00;04;31;25
Speaker 3
It you documentary. I shot a feature with a friend of mine in Chicago. We've done music videos, we've done, you know, all sorts of things. So now I've got a few different positions here. So I'm I'm head of production, a film production in our department. And then I also I'm creative director with the Office of Digital Learning. So we do productions that have educational brings it, you know, before everybody had to go online, we were doing this, so we were kind of, you know, prepared for that.

00;04;31;26 - 00;04;49;21
Speaker 3
But we do, like many documentaries and things of that nature. And I also am director of the Creative Computing groups to handle all of the computing systems for creative work, being editing or graphic design, you know, animation, that kind of thing. So we install all those systems.

00;04;49;24 - 00;05;07;07
Speaker 1
Fantastic. So the transition from being out there in the general, it sounds like you were able to continue some of that pursuit also while teaching and kind of educating others on it.

00;05;07;10 - 00;05;30;01
Speaker 3
Right. Yeah. So I mean, in this sort of just taking the initiative and taking advantage of, I think, certain possibilities, you know, being able to go out and, you know, starting small was sort of a security journey that, you know, hey, I could do this. I did this documentary, this big, you know, guy who does large scale sculptures.

00;05;30;03 - 00;05;55;21
Speaker 3
And, you know, he came in and I was actually the last one down on him before he passed away. And then, you know, there's a lot of grant work involved. And I was I sort of working with a friend and I anthropology. We were doing documentary work on these islands that are off the coast of Ireland, and that kind of bloomed into a lot more European work, international work, because, you know, you have something to show.

00;05;55;24 - 00;06;24;07
Speaker 3
And so, you know, you do one thing you sort of transition to, yeah, take this money and go do this now and, you know, those kinds of things. So and that's a good spot to be in with the camera company that, you know, I brought in and then start doing work with them as well. So, you know, keeping keeping my hands in the holding with friends that are in production and you know, making more friends and not got classroom experience.

00;06;24;09 - 00;06;40;02
Speaker 1
Very cool. So on the for the listeners right on the film, television and theater, that's what all is encompassed in that and and what majors are coming out of that that part of him. Well that's a lot.

00;06;40;02 - 00;07;05;12
Speaker 3
Of it yeah I mean Notre Dame lot I mean we're not known for this, but it actually is a very popular major within the college because the letters and what a lot of the majors, you know, people that are in, you know, also have a business major. And we're not a minor. We do a musical theater minor, but film, television and theater, basically, you'd major in the city and so you'd have a concentration.

00;07;05;17 - 00;07;25;19
Speaker 3
So we're kind of a what we call, like a boutique program. So, you know, you can be in film, you'd be studying film, you studying television, or you're studying theater. Some people will do both. Some people come into theater just because it helps them, even in their own careers. Like we had somebody that did, you know, one of the big musicals.

00;07;25;19 - 00;07;46;12
Speaker 3
She went on to law school because now you can, you know, speak in front of people. So it's a very transferable skills up that way. Yeah. Our program is actually more history. Critical studies is based still you have a foundation and that and then you can take production and there's a lot to do. So you know now we actually have an expanded faculties.

00;07;46;12 - 00;08;06;19
Speaker 3
We're actually offering a little bit more, but you get to do a little bit of everything. So in my classes that are at upper level filmmaking class is, you know, you're you're in it from the writing process is into you know, going to shoot the movie and producing the movie and editing the movie. And so you're not kind of getting involved into one job miserably.

00;08;06;19 - 00;08;27;02
Speaker 3
So is you're getting the experience of everything and then you could move on to either concentrating in industry work or grad school, and we'll have people come out. You know, they may not. I mean, we actually have a lot of people that come out and actually get into get into the production field. I think people get you know, it's not like these automatic jobs and business in engineering.

00;08;27;02 - 00;08;44;05
Speaker 3
My son's an engineering major, is a senior right now. And, you know, they kind of things get lined up. And I think there is a sense of security there. And, you know, because it is, you know, a journey. But there's a lot out there, a lot of opportunity out there. And we have a lot of students that are making the most of it.

00;08;44;05 - 00;09;12;06
Speaker 3
So, you know, and, you know, we really, I think, have a reputation for really solid work ethic. So work coming from the school. So we'll have like, you know, there's been kind of a pipeline through DreamWorks, like they like hiring Notre Dame kids because they have a kind of a different sensibility of the workforce is kind of bigger programs that, you know, I only wanted to do this kind of this kind of work.

00;09;12;08 - 00;09;14;16
Speaker 3
So it's been it's been good that way.

00;09;14;19 - 00;09;37;20
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, it's it's a difficult school to get into from a raw standpoint. So you're going to be in a the students that are attending are are going to be upper echelon. And so you're you're sort of perpetuating that work ethic that comes in and making sure that it sticks. At what point in the FTE program do you switch to the more elective based up?

00;09;37;20 - 00;09;45;20
Speaker 1
So like is there a core curriculum that everybody's taking freshman and sophomore year and then junior and senior, you're really trying to focus in on what you think you enjoy out of that?

00;09;45;22 - 00;10;08;06
Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, there's a core curriculum at Notre Dame anyway, so you have to, you know, usually the freshman years kind of sat second semester you get kind of a little active and some people will take our basic course, which is kind of how to read films and basic history is kind of the gateway course. Some of them also get into if they get into production, they'll do interior production early.

00;10;08;08 - 00;10;39;22
Speaker 3
So the freshmen, but usually sophomores. So we'll have a larger sophomore class that will then declare and say, Oh, I want to start doing more production work. But then, you know, you're also taking you're taking a little sort of one goes to a to this is in the film program A you've already taken basics and then you take a critical approaches which could be any number of any number of courses that are a specialty of one of our most critical studies history faculty.

00;10;39;24 - 00;11;03;14
Speaker 3
And that's kind of your four core courses. And then you have the ability and take like six then electives from there, and some of it will cross over where you might take an acting class, you know, or something else. But then you know, within the film program you might be doing, you know, doing more production work, which also crosses over with TV because it's really in and, you know, and is it.

00;11;03;14 - 00;11;15;01
Speaker 1
Is it, uh, you had mentioned declaring the major in the sophomore year. Is that is that across the board at Notre Dame where most people are coming in undeclared or there is no declaration until sophomore year.

00;11;15;04 - 00;11;39;08
Speaker 3
Right. I mean you don't really come in and I although I mean, I say, you know, from other schools like my son came in, like you hit the ground running an engineering. If you were in arts and letters, you can kind of explore a little bit ago, you might have a major multiple switching majors or we'll have have people add on major even a little bit later, you know, or they finished they might have finished a lot of their coursework, you know, through those two years.

00;11;39;08 - 00;11;53;14
Speaker 3
And we had an open event where people came in and they were juniors and they were like, Well, now I've done all this work, but now I'm going to concentrate more on this major kind of thing. But it isn't the kind of that that sets not like you're not going to apply to the film program.

00;11;53;16 - 00;11;54;08
Speaker 1
Around.

00;11;54;11 - 00;12;01;02
Speaker 3
You. You have the opportunity to kind of explore what your options might be on the case.

00;12;01;04 - 00;12;19;17
Speaker 1
Which I think is is tremendous because you're kind of getting the idea of of learning how to learn at the collegiate level, and then you're then sort of enabled to make more critical decisions rather than making the critical decision that could be very wrong from a, you know, the from the get go. Right.

00;12;19;20 - 00;12;22;06
Speaker 3
Right.

00;12;22;09 - 00;12;45;09
Speaker 1
The what types of and again, I don't know what I don't know. So from the film, the television and theater, when you are there, obviously there have to be classes that everybody's going to take that apply to all three. What are the different types of classes that, you know, maybe the 400 level that you would take for film versus television versus theater.

00;12;45;11 - 00;13;26;14
Speaker 3
That are different? Yeah. Um, well, I mean, in film and television, it's really kind of, you know, getting concentrated on who might be doing something that is their, their work, their research work is more grounded in just television as a form. This is something that it is a level that would be a film like film, music and film or, you know, we have different we had so many that just constrained Disney, you know, and so that there were, you know, if you have people doing different kinds of work, you can have that kind of open access to a number of different kinds of classes.

00;13;26;14 - 00;13;53;00
Speaker 3
But they're concentrating more on that side of things in theater. Okay. It's the same way. I mean, you could you could actually be, you know, further down doing more production in theater like directing and such, you know, or, you know, we have people that are doing, you know, work in African-American theater or, you know, Asian theater structure, you know, things of that nature dot com spread the gamut.

00;13;53;02 - 00;14;02;24
Speaker 3
So it's the same kind of thing that our specialty courses that, you know, exist in that format that you know, you would be taking there.

00;14;02;27 - 00;14;20;24
Speaker 1
Is there a required that I want to say thesis but like at the end, is there some you know, if you want to graduate, do you have to create a film that is out there or a TV program or a production of one of those things.

00;14;20;29 - 00;14;22;14
Speaker 3
Like a capstone projects?

00;14;22;16 - 00;14;23;26
Speaker 1
Yes, that would be the word.

00;14;23;26 - 00;14;45;25
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, yeah, we we have we have a thesis program. Okay. You know, any number of majors will have. So you apply to this thesis program in your junior year and say this is kind of the extended work I want to do. And then you get, you know, oh, I want to make a film, you know, here's my proposal.

00;14;45;25 - 00;15;05;29
Speaker 3
I've taken all these classes, you know, I'm going to go above and beyond, you know, where the coursework is taking me. The same thing would be true theater. A lot of those are also might be written works. So they're they're bigger research projects that then you might be doing some sort of multimedia or you're doing a scene, you know, kind of two different things.

00;15;05;29 - 00;15;31;28
Speaker 3
But that's, that's essentially then above and beyond normal coursework, we would say in the in the production here that, you know, if you go through the courses and you make an advanced film, that's kind of a capstone project anyway, you know, sort of a label on that that says, you know, I went kind of the next step, you know, in having done all these courses that you could finish it, but it's not it's not a requirement.

00;15;32;01 - 00;15;35;27
Speaker 3
Okay? You ever it's sort of gives you that extra feather in your cap.

00;15;35;29 - 00;15;54;09
Speaker 1
Yeah. So in the in the high school environment, you know, we talk about the resume builder and the that's something that you put on when you're trying to get that first job and say, hey, I not only did I get this major, but I did this extra work and here's the production or here's what I did as a as a Segway into the professional world.

00;15;54;11 - 00;16;14;14
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, we had somebody that I mean, she didn't do a thesis, but she made a film in my class. And when she was applying for jobs and, you know, kind of a more of a producing role in a small production company is between her and another woman. This is a very female oriented group company. And it's it came down to her having a film.

00;16;14;14 - 00;16;29;17
Speaker 3
The other one didn't. Yeah, she had already created something and made something, you know, regardless of little bigger, you know, festivals and things like that, it's like, Oh, you have this, you know, So you, you know, with that process. And so that was kind of a good person.

00;16;29;18 - 00;16;35;16
Speaker 1
We absolutely have a body of work that you can present and say, Hey, I've been down this road, so I understand.

00;16;35;18 - 00;16;36;07
Speaker 3
Right now.

00;16;36;11 - 00;16;57;14
Speaker 2
On that topic about, you know, if we kind of go prior to like thinking about that high school side of things. Well, if you're interested in potentially studying film, if that's a career or, you know, a passion that you have when you're in high school, how important is it to have a portfolio or take classes or how knowledgeable do you have to be?

00;16;57;14 - 00;17;01;06
Speaker 2
Is there prerequisites to get into a program like at Notre Dame?

00;17;01;09 - 00;17;22;02
Speaker 3
Not here. I mean, people go to meetings. I mean, I think I mean, even in our admission process, I don't think they're they're taking that material. It's pretty straightforward across the board. You're writing a stage, you're doing these kind of things. People want to submit things to us. It really not happening much anymore because you don't have anything to say in admissions anyway.

00;17;22;04 - 00;17;44;16
Speaker 3
And really when you're coming in, you're coming in for. So if you have, you know, you have experience, it's a kind of helps you out to kind of get through, I think the first class, but we don't necessarily jump people along. It's sort of like, you know, because we have our own system, we have our own team, we have our own software, you know, So you're still taking those those classes.

00;17;44;16 - 00;18;14;20
Speaker 3
And every once in a while have somebody say, Well, I've done this, this and this. So you're going to go, Yeah, but, you know, get to know your classmates because you're going to bring up with them and, you know, to stick with that program. So, you know, it's it us. It's not necessary. I mean, a lot of times in grad school, it becomes necessary in that way because I even have I have a student now that and I they want you to make a five minute film like within two months of the application, they want to see you, like, go out and do this.

00;18;14;20 - 00;18;41;05
Speaker 3
This was related to me the other day. You want to see you go out and try to make this short film pretty quick right before that, not something you've done during your past work. I can't speak to other, you know, bigger programs, although I mean, I've heard things of like even at USC, if you're going to go to a USC undergrad, I mean, they basically just start everybody at ground level, like we're going to talk about, you know, this kind of part.

00;18;41;07 - 00;18;46;07
Speaker 3
So, you know, you can dive in whenever. Now.

00;18;46;09 - 00;18;56;09
Speaker 2
I always like to ask this question because there's always preconceived notions that a lot of parents have when their kid comes them and says, hey, I want to go to the school or I want to study this.

00;18;56;11 - 00;18;57;03
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;18;57;06 - 00;19;11;23
Speaker 2
What are some of the things that, you know, if I said to my father when I was a senior in high school, Hey, I want to study film. Well, I know his first thing is like, All right, I'm not going to say no, but what are you going to do with that? Okay. And you better go to school in California, right?

00;19;11;25 - 00;19;34;15
Speaker 2
Like, that's that. I know that. That's the first thing that he would have said because we had that conversation right. Like, but I know that families are immediately going to have this. Oh, that's what you're going to be doing. How much of that is real? How much of that is myth? What is probably some of the biggest things that you see that whether it's students or parents, that it's just they're they're just they don't have the right information.

00;19;34;15 - 00;19;43;05
Speaker 2
What are some of the things that you have to overcome or students have to overcome with family and kind of decision making with it, with all of that, whether it's school choice or that major?

00;19;43;07 - 00;20;00;13
Speaker 3
Well, that's why I think we have a lot of double majors. Sure. Okay. Yeah, we have kind of like the parents. We always do. We have the kind of the parents major you have with you. You might start someplace and then they might get a blessing. So I just can't do this. I want to do this, You know, I'll move over.

00;20;00;16 - 00;20;24;14
Speaker 3
But you kind of. But we have a lot of highly ambitious students anyway, so they're trying to almost do too much regardless. So we get a lot of double major just for the fact that they think that a guy has to do, you know, multiple things and give themselves options in that way. You know, where I mean, we have people that tour all the time and mostly it's like, I want to come to Notre Dame.

00;20;24;14 - 00;20;44;00
Speaker 3
I you know, but I also love film and they're kind of exploring the program, you know, to kind of see what it might offer, you know, in the big scheme of things. Can you say, oh, well, yeah, you have to go to California. You you know, a lot of people will still go to New York. FSU is a big program now.

00;20;44;00 - 00;21;14;16
Speaker 3
There's actually is a number of programs in other smaller school like, like a Chapman or something that's in L.A. So, you know, that's, you know, but the thing about that is that, you know, when you get into those, that's kind of where you're going. That's kind of the direction you're in. We have, you know, a motto we go with on our, our colleges, you know, study everything, you know, do anything because you can, you know, basically apply, you know, in any number of directions.

00;21;14;16 - 00;21;34;26
Speaker 3
And I've gone done some documentary classes with the anthropology of crossover. And they're basically medical students, school students, but then they find the kind of niche and they were like, Oh, this is really great. And I want to I want to apply that to this kind of, you know, this kind of work. But we also have groups that are just getting off track a little bit older.

00;21;34;28 - 00;22;03;03
Speaker 3
I'm doing a class where kids do just they have to make media for something and getting thrown into NGO work and then they say, Hey, can you take this camera or make a video? Because they just assume that they know how this eye goes to this course. That was basically, if you get something thrown at you, how can you to make something, you know, and the things you have to think about so that you can make media is part of, you know, this bigger picture that you're doing.

00;22;03;03 - 00;22;21;27
Speaker 3
This nonprofit is in any number of avenues, you know you can go so it's basically an art program, right? I mean, you're making media for any number of reasons. But then, you know, within our our major, you know, you can kind of branch out in different directions. Yeah.

00;22;22;00 - 00;22;56;08
Speaker 1
Well, and, you know, I look at our business and we're in college admissions, we're in financial planning in the insurance space, and and we've got all these and one of the things in the COVID environment, everything went to video. I mean, whether you're doing Zoom meetings, whether you're doing reels, whether you're advertising, and the expanse of advertising now has led to easier deployment of video content, which I mean, arguably, I have a a producer here that we hired to do all of our video content and all of our podcasts and stuff.

00;22;56;08 - 00;23;08;00
Speaker 1
So to me, it's an expanding environment, not a contracting one. It's one where, I mean, you have so many ways to get videos out now and so much production necessary to produce.

00;23;08;02 - 00;23;30;12
Speaker 3
So that's one way around it. Like is your question? I try to actually I'm trying to take my courses and go in direction that shows them it's not all about Hollywood. Yeah. To be doing this we do in any number of places. And I work with guys that work, have their own studio for dual tools and otterbox phone cases.

00;23;30;12 - 00;23;53;24
Speaker 3
Those guys go around the world telling stories of people just because they use a phone case, you know? So you have a lot of opportunities to, you know, be in this this creative field and not be in this sort of Hollywood machine. You know? So the people that I'm working with now are kind of independent, you know, documentary filmmakers and especially actually even wildlife filmmakers now.

00;23;53;27 - 00;24;12;03
Speaker 3
And, you know, how do you know people who are biologists then become, you know, get a camera in their hands and start, you know, making media from that? And if people are, you know, discovering careers that way, but really kind of go into it, say this is a transferable skill to any number of places you don't want to see.

00;24;12;03 - 00;24;40;10
Speaker 3
Like, you know, I know it feels sexy to go out and, you know, be on these TV shows, but it's a whole other life, too. Yeah. So, you know, we had one of my best students is working at a company in Tampa that's a is in kind of a Catholic, you know, media based company. You know that, you know, it was important work for her.

00;24;40;10 - 00;24;49;22
Speaker 3
And, you know, she's applying her skills up there. So. Yeah. So like you're saying, I mean, there's just there's a lot there's a lot to do beyond feeling like we're just looking at this one area.

00;24;49;25 - 00;25;01;23
Speaker 1
If you didn't know we have a free crash course on college funding and elite collegiate plan income. This will explain different types of loans, types of financial aid, savings vehicles and much more.

00;25;01;25 - 00;25;03;06
Speaker 3
And I mean.

00;25;03;09 - 00;25;24;14
Speaker 1
Like one thing and this is free advice to anyone that listens if your intention in life is to be an entrepreneur, you have to understand this stuff. We're not going in reverse, right? You're not going back to paper advertising. You're not going back to the the cold calling as we used to know it. There's too much technology preventing you from doing that stuff.

00;25;24;14 - 00;25;37;07
Speaker 1
So being out there as an entrepreneur and I know this firsthand, you have got to be willing to get in front of a camera to have a group of people that will do that stuff for you. So it is an expanding environment without question.

00;25;37;09 - 00;25;39;20
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. Because there's so many media outlets.

00;25;39;23 - 00;26;11;12
Speaker 1
Mm hmm. Yeah, we used to be you could get on the radio, you get on the TV or you make phone calls, right? Or you see in print. Ad Well, now, I mean, there's a thousand different places you can go and find content that has been created. And, and one of the things that I focused on is we were three years ago when COVID hit and we had to really reinvent how we were doing business and be out in the forefront and be in people's hands on their phones and know that was I never wanted to put out something that was garbage from an appearance standpoint, right?

00;26;11;12 - 00;26;29;23
Speaker 1
When when you see a film or you see a reel or you see something and it just looks bad, right? That that's an instant turnoff in business. And so it was always an idea of we have to make it look real, professional and high quality to be able to, you know, use it as copy for lack of a better expression.

00;26;29;25 - 00;26;31;03
Speaker 1
Right.

00;26;31;06 - 00;26;47;12
Speaker 2
One of the other questions I was thinking about would be, you know, again, there's there's high school students and parents when they're doing their college visits. I was lucky enough I was in Notre Dame. Bill gave me a tour of the facility and it's absolutely phenomenal. We looked at the soundstage, we looked at the equipment, the editing rooms.

00;26;47;12 - 00;27;08;24
Speaker 2
I mean, just a wonderful facility. But when you do a college visit and you're potentially thinking that this is a career path that may interest you, or whether it's something that you're passionate about, how important is it to understand the school's capabilities, the facilities, the equipment that they have? Like how important should that be in a student's decision?

00;27;08;24 - 00;27;29;15
Speaker 2
Do you think that every school is kind of equal on that level or there are schools that will stand out with the equipment that they will use in teaching kids to use cameras, that they'll be using software that we're using? Again, I'm not familiar with the industry, but how important is it to know what's truly you're learning with is now what you're going to use in the field after college?

00;27;29;17 - 00;27;50;05
Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, I think it's I think it's very important. And that's why, you know, even in our program, we strive to make sure that, you know, they going to say, well, it's all about stories. So yeah, but it's also about your experience level and the kinds of tools that you're working with and how that transfers right away and making exciting.

00;27;50;05 - 00;28;18;08
Speaker 3
And a lot of kids will get cameras in their hands, you know, but you want to give them something that they can run with, you know, and really understand and kind of take that to the next level. I just got another I got a request for a recommendation for a student. Been out for a while and he was talking about, you know, we really appreciate our experience with red cameras because it's going to transfer to my, you know, my documentary application to my Northwestern and, you know, some other program.

00;28;18;11 - 00;28;40;15
Speaker 3
And it was just having that kind of experience level. I also because I've seen where other programs you you know, they have a big reputation but they don't there's also such huge numbers that you don't get your hands on a lot of equipment or the like. One really good camera, you know, those kinds of things. And so access to that, I think becomes important.

00;28;40;15 - 00;29;01;03
Speaker 3
So that's why, you know, when they come and talk to us, I always say, you know, you're going to even get exposure on on everything. You know, it's kind of like you couldn't take it wherever you want to take it. Yeah. And so I don't know. Yeah. Not all programs are, are equal in that way. Yeah. We certainly got to talk to the other students that are in that program.

00;29;01;06 - 00;29;32;20
Speaker 3
And, you know, ours is also such that some people might come in and go, Well, I don't want to have to take history and let's take these things. But we find that it's a really great educational balance. You know, certainly from my point of view, when I got out and I was working in production, I could talk to the production groups coming in, like just telling you things about, you know, film history and Jackie Chan and movies and all these things that I was more, much more engaged with these clients now coming in than a lot of the other people that we're working with, because I had that I had that background.

00;29;32;20 - 00;29;53;09
Speaker 3
You know, the knowledge background is very highly, you know, knowledgeable about film history, people who are really successful, regardless of, you know, of course they were taken. So it is a good investigative thing. And I also think it's important when you go in, you get a sense of where the professors are coming from, like, you know, what can be done, you know, what are we doing now?

00;29;53;12 - 00;30;02;23
Speaker 3
You know, how that that transferable knowledge and skill going to apply to the work that you're gonna be doing, you know, in our program.

00;30;02;25 - 00;30;05;16
Speaker 2
So I want to get to that red camera. Yeah.

00;30;05;16 - 00;30;18;20
Speaker 1
I'm going to ask you, you said red camera, obviously. I know there's there's something to it. Can you lay out for us what is the red digital camera and how are you affiliated and what does all that mean?

00;30;18;22 - 00;30;40;06
Speaker 3
So red? I mean red, you know, compared to a lot of camera companies like camera and Sony and stuff, you know, it's fairly new to company. I mean, I just, you know, 15 years ago or so. Jim Junod started the company who owned Oakley sunglasses because he wanted to make a camera system because he wanted to shoot his own.

00;30;40;08 - 00;31;00;28
Speaker 3
You know, he was doing his own commercials and things like that. And he wanted to create this on camera system. And he went to the board and said, you know, I want to do this. This. They said no. So we saw the company $4 billion and went ahead and made his own cable company. It's you know, they had come out with their red one, which is the first 4K camera at the time, and it was affordable.

00;31;00;29 - 00;31;30;08
Speaker 3
But in the scheme of things, you know, like 17 five, you know, we were shooting on beta cam at the time. You were paying $80,000 for shooting a film. You're paying more than that for a film. Cameras plus, you know, the media. So it was kind of revolutionary in that way. But and now when you see things on TV or in the movies generally, you know something's going to be shot on red or Arie, Eric, Alexis, which would be very popular within the Hollywood system.

00;31;30;11 - 00;31;52;04
Speaker 3
So an event is is now, you know, coming up with the addition of Matt Marek. And so we were all high resolution raw systems that, you know, you can manipulate and do a lot of things with. And so, you know, Red has managed to actually hold a, you know, a pretty solid place on wildlife documentary because it's accessible.

00;31;52;04 - 00;32;15;08
Speaker 3
It's it's much more affordable. It provides, you know, high resolution images and so we adopted red one very early on when when actually our our science department had got one for facial recognition work. And so I was tagged with how do I make this thing work? And then we got donated one and then we've kind of stuck with that format for three years.

00;32;15;08 - 00;32;44;21
Speaker 3
And now I do a lot of verification, what they call education classes. So I'm doing a lot of work, actually work with another company, Wild Motion, that we are now taking over that branch from Red Digital Cinema. And you know, we just did one in Jackson Wild and we'll do a number of these different programs. So now our program, now when you get up to that upper level, it's it's red camera based, some kind of cloud structure, you know how to work with it.

00;32;44;21 - 00;33;04;06
Speaker 3
You know, all these things you've already, you know, you kind of already been through that game when you get out. Oh, you know, kids to go, oh, you know how what this is at least. Yeah. And then they could media manage or you know, they can do any number of things because they understand the ecosystem of how that works.

00;33;04;09 - 00;33;16;16
Speaker 3
So, you know, we have a number of different ones. And when we go through, you know, Khan and Steve Black Magic's two red cameras. So you kind of make your way through a number of different systems. But that's where we are now.

00;33;16;18 - 00;33;45;12
Speaker 1
I think some some really cool that I took from that. The whole kind of explanation of it was in the beginning you were talking about being in charge of kind of the digital education and Notre Dame and now you have this red camera organization and you have, uh, like the training mechanism that you use. Is it kind of cross-pollinate in the public sector, in the education sector, and you're doing similar work, it sounds like, for Notre Dame itself and its digital education and the filmmaking.

00;33;45;12 - 00;33;54;25
Speaker 1
But then also you're now applying the training mechanism that you've created to helping this camera company teach people how to use it.

00;33;54;27 - 00;34;24;02
Speaker 3
Right? Yeah. I mean, you know, the best way to learn how to do something is learn how to teach it to that. But rather than be able to explain it and, you know, be able to work with people like, you know, like I was mentioning earlier that are in a number of different fields and then also just doing crowdsourcing work, like I work with an organization on youth in South Africa and I'm hoping to go back again in February and do a whole workshops just to train Africa based filmmakers.

00;34;24;02 - 00;34;49;07
Speaker 3
You know, these systems so that when groups come in, they get hired to do the work instead of people, you know, bringing in a lot of people from the outside, you know, BBC crews and things like that, they'll actually hire those people to do that kind of thing. So, you know, for me, yeah, it's it's both education. It's also that kind of networking and you know, how you discovering new things and new applications and so will bring in, you know, have another skill set.

00;34;49;07 - 00;35;08;09
Speaker 3
And we're using lenses that I don't typically use. And so it's always a learning process for me as well. And I just yeah, I really enjoy it just because, you know, you just get to meet great people and, you know, have that kind of network expand and, you know, always kind of figuring out new stuff like, you know, who's who's using what and who's discovering what.

00;35;08;09 - 00;35;14;03
Speaker 3
And I'll use this next time. And, you know, it's it's a constant learning process, which is.

00;35;14;06 - 00;35;36;10
Speaker 2
I mean, I would the changing landscape. I mean, if you go back 20 years, I mean, was HD you mean a thing, right? I mean, and now we're talking, you know, HD 1080 PE, 4k. I mean, yeah, it's, it's ever evolving. I mean, it's constantly evolving. I mean, think about, you know, again, you talk about influencers now and how accessible things are.

00;35;36;12 - 00;35;59;08
Speaker 2
People can use a phone to shoot a high quality image in video. I mean, the advancement of film photo over a short period of time has been tremendous. And I would imagine it's going to continue down that pathway. So the education inside of it and imagine there has to be a foundation that as these things evolve, you you kind of know where it came from.

00;35;59;08 - 00;36;21;02
Speaker 2
That gives you a better understanding, I would imagine. And I know. But yeah, I mean, it's again, I think it's why it is such a great field potentially to be in, because you don't want to be in something that's dying, right? You want something that has a future. And this obviously is, you know, is something that will continue to evolve tremendously over the years.

00;36;21;05 - 00;36;49;27
Speaker 3
Yeah, definitely. I mean, it definitely will. And then there's those always unvaccinated with all these people that do new innovations just to make parts and things. And yeah, all industries that spun off of, you know, you know, one camera system or multiple camera systems and these, you know, these things. I'm kind of exploring that option as well. You know, where we're there to, you know, create something else to make something work, you know?

00;36;50;00 - 00;37;05;17
Speaker 1
Yeah, I just I'm laughing because I remember when I got a two megapixel camera and it was like it was like the end. Like you can't get a better camera. No. Yeah, Yeah. Now, now you've got like, like 20 megapixels in a phone anymore. So it just, it's crazy.

00;37;05;24 - 00;37;25;25
Speaker 3
I barrel to go just to get to HD when we got these HD X you know, two under, it's like, you know why, why do we have to do that and go to HD like, well, because it's this is, you know, like that's true. You know, like we we talk about now even with red stars like, you know, people scoffed at 4K, you know, can you buy a 1080 TV now?

00;37;25;28 - 00;37;33;20
Speaker 3
You know, small monitors now these little college TVs because I did buy those. But, you know, yeah, where we are.

00;37;33;22 - 00;37;53;20
Speaker 2
I just I joke. So my my youngest wants to wrestle and at first he thought I signed and said yes, signed up for wrestling. And he's like, all right. Thinking it's like WWF, you know. But no. And I said, you know, dad, wrestling gives you did. I said, Oh, yeah. You know, I transferred a bunch of the old videotapes that we have on to YouTube.

00;37;53;20 - 00;38;12;04
Speaker 2
And so I put it on the big screen and it's the box. It's all grainy. And my daughter goes, God, you guys looked bad back then. Yeah, But I was like, What do you mean? She's like, Look at the picture. Like, that's that's what you get. I'm like, Oh, no idea. Like static on a TV. Forget it. Like, you know, it's just amazing.

00;38;12;04 - 00;38;22;04
Speaker 2
The visualization. Like, Mike, they got iPads, they got 4K in their hands. You know, it's it's. It's insane. Yeah, but I got off track there.

00;38;22;04 - 00;38;42;02
Speaker 1
I think it's also fascinating. It's it's a battle between the ability to shoot it and the ability to to show it. Right. Because for a long time, the the televisions didn't have the capability of the cameras. And you're kind of going back and forth. You can you can record in higher definition, but you can't display in higher definition.

00;38;42;02 - 00;38;45;20
Speaker 1
And now it's sort of that constant battle back and forth, right?

00;38;45;22 - 00;39;05;25
Speaker 3
Yeah, right. I mean, yeah, it was whether or not, you know, you've got a 4K, but is it streaming 4K or you're seeing things in HDR and all that stuff that would be catching up. I mean our thing is that, you know, when I say awesome, you know, when I'm working with red, it is when you shoot it at a higher resolution, as you bring it down, it looks better, right?

00;39;05;28 - 00;39;26;03
Speaker 3
So it's always going to be as you start DOWNSAMPLING that way. And one great example that we gave is that I love Lucy, Desi, We want to shoot in 3 to 5 millimeter, but none of that stuff was shown in 35 millimeter. Yeah, I'm against transport and we've got this great. You know, you transfer down, it goes the table is going out.

00;39;26;03 - 00;39;45;02
Speaker 3
The two televisions, you know, it looks one way. But then when you look at the actual train and remastered, it was, it's just amazing, you know. So you're you have this future proof ability to to you know, have these images and that's where film was always, you know, saying, you know, well, everything. We're going to archive everything on film and a lot of stuff.

00;39;45;02 - 00;39;53;24
Speaker 3
Does this good archive film because it's it's got that kind of future proof resolution. Yeah. Going forward versus just drives.

00;39;53;26 - 00;40;16;19
Speaker 1
And so I want to I want to circle back on, on kind of the interdisciplinary collaborations and stuff because some of that sounds awesome. And then also I will get to the, the endurance part of your lifestyle, which I'm assuming there's a substantial amount of video creation you're doing. And you know, there's a little bit of GoPro conversation in that I'm sure we're well advanced on GoPro, right?

00;40;16;19 - 00;40;37;02
Speaker 1
But from the interdisciplinary standpoint, I was trying to figure out where it doesn't apply. And I can't. I mean, I feel like every discipline, it's I mean, there's video technology or production necessary to educate or communicate anything anymore in any subject matter.

00;40;37;04 - 00;40;56;24
Speaker 3
Yeah, Yeah. I mean, part of it for us is turmoil. Everybody's got a phone, you know, and you can shoot these giant things, but really to make it look and sound good, you know, is also a challenge I just like and there's little things here and there, you know, shooting is windows, you know, all these kinds of things, you know, So people convincingly have been making media all this time.

00;40;56;26 - 00;41;19;22
Speaker 3
You know, how do we make it? How do we make it better or how do we make it stand up to, you know, these captivating shows you're seeing on on television and streaming networks, You know, that kind of like the interdisciplinary things that I'm doing now is is actually what we would call visual anthropology. So I've been working with an archeologist and, you know, we created a class that builds takes kids from multiple disciplines.

00;41;19;22 - 00;41;39;07
Speaker 3
I'm going to go document local barns and kind of learn what that what that visual language is, bringing it back to that when that's when you actually get, you know, you get different things that were in history or they in you know, they're going into medicine and suddenly they discover that it's this other passion for, you know, doing that kind of work.

00;41;39;07 - 00;42;03;07
Speaker 3
And now, you know, there's recording surgeries and there's, you know, you know, spines of things are like these NGO kind of things that we were talking about. You know, a lot of it's funny because a lot of different majors now will ask for media and then come to us and to go, well, we actually have a whole department, you know, within the colleges, Oh, you can take out any of these other cameras just to create stuff because it's always been an option.

00;42;03;07 - 00;42;09;21
Speaker 3
Now that you're creating media and one way or another, you know, we just want to take it to a higher standard.

00;42;09;23 - 00;42;20;28
Speaker 1
So I think continuing in some of the stuff that you've done also on understand the software side of it and the because I've gone on editing software and lost my mind.

00;42;21;05 - 00;42;21;24
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;42;21;27 - 00;42;41;05
Speaker 1
No formal training whatsoever, trying to figure it out and simple programs. But I got to imagine some of the, some of the software packages are just immense. How much time do students spend on the editing and the learning of software and things like that? And is there a is there a general language of editing software that sort of they all use?

00;42;41;05 - 00;42;46;10
Speaker 1
Or if you learn one, you know them all, or is it you got to be specific and detailed on that.

00;42;46;13 - 00;43;08;28
Speaker 3
There's yeah, I mean there's a certain language certainly when you have clips in your video tracks, you have audio tracks that are typically stacked and you know those kinds of things. But there is a a a big muscle memory resistance to changing a lot. You know, So if you go back to the story of, you know, final cut and everybody's final cut seven Mm.

00;43;09;01 - 00;43;27;29
Speaker 3
And then they to final cut ten and nobody can get their heads wrapped around what they were doing, you know, it sort of went back to the iMovie sort of look and feel and now it's progressed to the point where it's got a niche market. It kind of got away from the Hollywood kind of stuff, but certain people who use it really, really like that.

00;43;28;02 - 00;43;45;28
Speaker 3
So networks, they all use ours, right? I mean, it's got kind of its own system. But again, it's really tracks and top. You know, you've got playback, you've got your clip, you know, windows and things of that nature. You've got bins, you know, that kind of language. But again, it's like, you know, they've been doing it so long.

00;43;45;28 - 00;44;09;13
Speaker 3
They've invested in an infrastructure. They're using just, you know, proxy clips and then they just they spit it out. You know, where it's really going now is, you know, everybody's using premiere is part of the creative cloud. And so you need a subscription, you use Creative Cloud. But all these programs are really, you know, after editing and going over to other programs.

00;44;09;17 - 00;44;40;05
Speaker 3
So like, you're sending things to ProTools, you're sending things to resolve really now. So I've switched actually everything to resolve and I did I did that partly because of the pandemic, because you could get results for free. I had reached the point where, you know, their editing platform was had become very, very robust. And where I'm seeing when we're doing classes is a lot of people who are looking to move in that way because color management is so important and doesn't care about color management.

00;44;40;11 - 00;45;02;08
Speaker 3
Everything else is sort of shifting that way. Premiere You can kind of do certain things, but really when you're color grading, which becomes a really important last step in higher end productions, you know, they're trying to put those things over. So even within our own department I work here, we moved everything to resolve and a lot of people are trying to do that.

00;45;02;11 - 00;45;27;14
Speaker 3
But like you said, you know, yeah, there's a terminology there, but there's also well, I like the way it does this and I like the way it does that. And I've got to figure out different keyboard strokes and, you know, I just jumped in and just started learning it. And you know, once it takes over, you know, it's hard for me to actually go backwards now, like it opened up a premiere project because I'm I, I just like what resolvers doing.

00;45;27;17 - 00;45;34;01
Speaker 3
So in our program now we have premiere in some of the classes and then I'm now using Resolve.

00;45;34;04 - 00;45;41;24
Speaker 1
And so is there coursework specifically around editing? I would assume that and you're actually getting into that.

00;45;41;27 - 00;46;04;22
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, we, we had a course we had an agent come in that was doing like fix it in post and like sound and things like that, which were really good additions. Right now it's like you, you can learn how to use premiere an intro, then you're learning, you can resolve to you sort of moving over in my class because of where we're going to get to the end game.

00;46;04;22 - 00;46;25;22
Speaker 3
So you spend time in those. But right now I can't I can't dedicate, you know, I'm still coaching and shooting and lighting and, you know, all these other things. Yeah, partly it's like, here's a lot of tutorials that either so much information out there that you can learn that process. And I you know, somebody actually came in when I was traveling and did the post process.

00;46;25;22 - 00;46;42;27
Speaker 3
Now you got to get in there and learn it. And at the end mostly we spend more time doing this. I just, you know, they always think you have more time. I just I never have enough time to go through everything. So, you know, we really need to make sure we I think we offer just those kind of editing technical skills classes.

00;46;42;27 - 00;47;01;03
Speaker 3
But, you know, that's the kind of stuff that, you know, we all just learn on the fly and we get it. Like they always want things in to them. You can go, Yeah, but none of us took courses like we just sat down with the stuff and then you learned it much like online tutorials. Now that I hand out to go, Well, you could have done it.

00;47;01;06 - 00;47;02;21
Speaker 3
You just got to do it.

00;47;02;24 - 00;47;04;23
Speaker 1
Yeah, we had to take the initiative on it, get your.

00;47;04;23 - 00;47;07;11
Speaker 3
Head wrapped around it. So.

00;47;07;13 - 00;47;32;25
Speaker 1
So final question for me. Is there a commonality in students that seem to be successful as they're coming through your program or as they're coming through the the school at Notre Dame Department of Film Television Theater? And you know, what type of student in the high school like who should be considering this stuff as as a as a focus.

00;47;32;27 - 00;47;57;07
Speaker 3
A commonality between those who are successful dedication, dedication and is resilience, you know, knowing that there's a certain element of uncertainty. But, you know, you've got I had a great class last year. You know, I just actually we had a final a final, you know, event was and so you said it. I had the most fun this year because everybody was into it.

00;47;57;09 - 00;48;17;21
Speaker 3
You know, I'm very intimate. So like, if you're if you're looking distracted, then, you know, I just don't probably you've got too many other things or you're not dedicated to what we need to do to make this happen. And they all weren't. They just they wanted to make these things. They wanted to make it. They were, you know, talented group.

00;48;17;23 - 00;48;38;11
Speaker 3
So you have to have that dedication, you know, to what you're learning in school and then the application of that and where are you going to go. But you also have to have that resilience, as you know, knowing it's a little tougher, you know, when you get out. I mean, I got out, I was making eight bucks an hour, banning rebar, building rock formations at Universal.

00;48;38;14 - 00;48;42;02
Speaker 3
You know, this is not exactly an easy road, but I got here.

00;48;42;04 - 00;48;43;26
Speaker 1
Yeah, for sure.

00;48;43;28 - 00;49;03;19
Speaker 2
All right. My last question, a little bit more personal, not necessarily tied down to this, but I did mention that when I was in high school, I thought I wanted to get into the film, you know, or just the aspects of it, but it was mainly editing because I took it's funny, my my entire life I remember two classes, one in college was just critical thinking and two was senior year of high school, which was, you know, the study of film.

00;49;03;19 - 00;49;25;16
Speaker 2
And we studied Jaws and it changed my worlds about how I watch films and just editing and how master of all the editing in that movie is. Is there a film that you teach or that you have watched that has kind of changed, you know, like your stand out on a what film is versus just sitting down and watching it and enjoying a film too?

00;49;25;16 - 00;49;32;24
Speaker 2
Actually, this is an art form. Is there anything that you would stand out you can recommend that I could watch? I'm just curious, what if you had to take on that?

00;49;32;26 - 00;49;56;09
Speaker 3
All right, So my my, my favorite movie, like you're saying, you know, people would come up and when you really notice directing was Raiders of the Lost Ark. You know, when you really do see, you know, and there's a great article where somebody talks about this is actually directing like, you know, you seeing what's happening and blocking and all these things that are that are going on within that film itself.

00;49;56;12 - 00;50;22;11
Speaker 3
I don't actually use that film a lot, but that was kind of like a formula based for, you know, for me loving movies really, I think know, I had been using a lot, you know, from an editing standpoint. I mean, I use I use American Beauty while I am talking about cinematography because I love Conrad Hall. And the simplicity of what he was doing is very accessible.

00;50;22;13 - 00;50;56;09
Speaker 3
But I've been doing a lot with No Country for Old Men and Sicario recently. I listen to the Team Deakins podcast a lot. I did it actually for this one when I was outside earlier today, and, you know, kind of getting a real sense of, you know, where those decisions are being made in both coverage and, you know, I'm, you know, in in shooting it, you know, so like, there's a whole scene in Sicario where, you know, going to, you know, while we could go get coverage.

00;50;56;09 - 00;51;10;28
Speaker 3
But if I do, I might use it. And it's perfect the way it is, You know, it's like you just have to get around that. You know, I think it's that mindset. We were students and going, you know, they they don't they shouldn't have that kind of coverage kind of coverage yet. Take that away with that one thing.

00;51;10;28 - 00;51;35;13
Speaker 3
But that's where you kind of you go with it. So those are those are kind of I'm using now. Okay. So going on what you're saying about stars, I mean, everybody wants visions of light, if you can find it. I make, you know, on my classes watch it because it's basically it's the great history of cinematography and the choices like John's this it was the was the biggest budget handheld movie ever made because you can't be on a boat.

00;51;35;13 - 00;51;49;25
Speaker 3
You don't want to be on a tripod. You know, they were going to do that, that kind of work. So yeah, just those in not Tree of Life, there's actually from a completely different standpoint, Tree of Life is also, I think one of my favorites. Yeah.

00;51;49;28 - 00;51;59;18
Speaker 1
Okay I lot I have one more question What's more important pre-production or post-production.

00;51;59;20 - 00;52;25;22
Speaker 3
Well I'm when my class comes out you know they will have to write a paper at the end the the predominant viewpoint is always pre-production like that. They feel like, you know, had I been more prepared, this would have gone smoother, you know? But you've got people that are editing one of the movies made in post-production kind of thing, and I understand that.

00;52;25;22 - 00;52;45;14
Speaker 3
But from their standpoint, in retrospect, it was always like, I needed to spend more time on pre-production. I needed, you know, and I'm always sort of hammering that home so that because they think it's going to be easier than it is and it isn't, you can just do that. And then then post-production, then I think takes care of itself.

00;52;45;14 - 00;52;48;14
Speaker 3
So, you know, I guess they're going to go with that.

00;52;48;17 - 00;52;52;05
Speaker 1
I love it, but it's been awesome. I appreciate it very much.

00;52;52;07 - 00;53;15;12
Speaker 2
Yeah. And again, thank you again for the tour. When I was up there a couple of weeks back, I was hoping when we came on today Notre Dame would have had 11 guys on the field and beat Ohio State. But we won't get into that now. But now, yeah. Thank you so much for the tour. Thank you. Thank you for being a guest on today's show and I hope to maybe next time I get up to Notre Dame, I'll drop in and say hello.

00;53;15;14 - 00;53;17;28
Speaker 3
Yeah, please do. Yeah.

00;53;18;01 - 00;53;45;19
Speaker 1
All right, everybody. That's been college knowledge with Professor William Denham. I almost screwed it up. Donnarumma right at the University of Notre Dame here, Italy collegiate planning. We are able to send students to private schools for nearly a fraction of the cost of public schools. Visit our web site. Elite collegiate planning dot com to learn more. Thanks for listening to the College Knowledge podcast with your host, Dave Kozak and Joe Kearns.

00;53;45;21 - 00;53;54;13
Speaker 1
We hope you enjoyed this week's exploration of higher education sponsored by the College Planning Network and Paradigm Financial Group. That's all for this episode. See you next time.