Earl McIntyre

This week’s guest is a trombonist, tuba player composer-arranger, and educator. Owner of Excelsior Music Stuidio LLC., Earl McIntyre. Earl tells us all about his beginnings in music his journey from the Salvation army bands to music school, to playing professionally all over the world, and his most recent involvement with the new Pixar film “Soul”.

https://www.newmusicusa.org/profile/excelsiormusic/
https://youtu.be/wFZ51DM0lEI
https://www.facebook.com/earl.mcintyre.12
https://www.facebook.com/ExcelsiorMusicBrooklyn

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Produced by Green Bow Music

https://www.canr.msu.edu/michigan_artshare/
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Transcript

Tia Time with Artists, with guest Earl McIntyre, recorded on 12/18/2020

Tia Imani Hanna: Welcome to Tia Time with Artists, the weekly podcast where we discuss the methods, challenges, and real-life experiences of living our creative dreams. What kind of creative warrior are you? Musician? Filmmaker? Painter? Choreographer? Poet? Sculptor? Fashionista? Let’s talk about it right now. I’m your host, Tia Imani Hanna.

Tia Imani Hanna: Welcome to Tia time with artists and my guest today is Earl McIntyre, the most amazing trombone player and arranger and educator and friend of mine. So welcome Earl to the show.

Earl McIntyre: My pleasure. Great seeing you. It's great doing this show, especially during these times, we need to reach out and tap people and talk about some positive stuff. So here we are. 

Tia Imani Hanna:  And it's one of those things where we were just talking about is that I know you're home, so I can get you. So, I'm honored that you're here. This is my inaugural season. And one of the people that I know that are fabulous to be on the show. So, more people can hear about you and know what you're doing. Trombone work, teaching arranging, being the husband of Renee Manning. Those things are amazing and wonderful. Tell me, what was it about the trombone that called you to it in the beginning?

Earl McIntyre: I think the first thing you have to understand is my family, we generally don't think about African Americans in this way, but my family came up in the Salvation Army. So, everybody in my family played a brass instrument. My father played the coronet and the alto horn, and my mother played the baritone horn euphonium. And both my brothers played coronets because the Salvation Army comes out of the British brass band thing. And coronets are preferred as opposed to trumpets. If we found a trumpet, we would use it, but it was really preferred coronet. So, when I started out, I was so small that I had a trumpet, and I would put the trumpet on the edge of a seat so I could hold it and play it. And my father would, and he says if you play a brass instrument, you've got to at least learn one song before you give up, you gotta learn a song. So, I started working on  “Beautiful Dreamer.” And now I'm working on playing this thing and now my boys out playing basketball and they're doing all this stuff and I said, “Man, I'm gonna learn this song so this man leave me alone.” So, I went and learned “Beautiful Dreamer” and then my father looked at me and said, “Son that was wonderful, but that wasn't a song I meant.” And he pulled this method book out called Arbonne's Tutors, like the Bible for brass players, and in the back is the “Carnival of Venice” and it looked like a fly had just run across the page. I was so mad I couldn't see straight. But see my father, this was a very wise man, and he really knew about positive peer pressure. And this is back in the day. Now you got to remember we're in Bed-Stuy, Bedford-Stuyvesant, which was a relatively rough neighborhood then, but my father was a very upstanding kind of guy. So, what he does…

Tia Imani Hanna: Bed-Stuy in New York

Earl McIntyre: Yeah, in Brooklyn. He goes to the pawn shop and buys a bunch of cheap brass instruments. And then he invites all my friends into the house to learn how to play them. See what I mean? So now they're not out playing basketball. They're in there and he starts playing now. And this is one of the things that got me into education. Cause out of that group, he got a professional musician, a lawyer… and this is from Bed, from the hood. You know what I mean? Professional musician, a lawyer, a doctor, and the fourth of our little crew, he has held blue collar gigs and he's been straight for his entire life. And when you consider that this is a kid whose brother was in jail for murder charges for murdering their mother. 

Tia Imani Hanna: Oh wow. 

Earl McIntyre: It's like an incredible story. You know what I'm saying? So anyway, to get to the trombone though, so I started, I started playing the trumpet and I think my father always wanted a trombone player cause he didn't have one in the family, see. I start with the trumpet and then he kinda got me to play this slide trumpet thing for a minute. Then the next thing I know I had a euphonium, which is like a baritone horn. And from there I got the trombone and I started playing the trombone and the trombone, I liked the trombone, and the Salvation Army at that point, who played first trombone, or second trombone, had to do with seniority. And since I was at that point, I guess I was, it must have been coming up on 15. So, even though I played better than most of the adults, I didn't have a chance of playing first trombone. So now, like I said, my uncle, he was what we call an officer in the Salvation Army. You might as well say the minister of the church. And he could tell I was getting irritated and you could imagine, you're a teenager, the vibe. So anyway, he said, you know something Earl, come here for a minute. I want to show you something. And he takes me in this back room. He says, “Listen, we got this instrument. And nobody's playing it. And it's in good condition. It's pretty new. It's called a bass trombone and we don't have a bass trombone player in the band. So, you might want to try this out and see what you think.” And Tia, I picked up the horn and I play on note, “OOOOO.” I said, “That's it.” So, I switched to bass trombone. Now they figured… now this is what happens with parents. They figured that this was the end of the story, but I'm practicing the bass trombone. And I'll tell you one of the big hints my father told me, which I give to this day to all my students, is that I lived in the back room of a brownstone in Brooklyn and it had a lot of room, and he told me, “Just clear out, make sure there's nothing in a way, but practice with your eyes closed or in the dark.” Because so many people play the trombone and string instruments and he played strings, incidentally. Some of it is his teaching techniques came from playing some violin, but he'd say, “This way you won't get wrapped into looking at the slide when you play. It's all about hearing it and feeling it.” See, but once again, the same way that he didn't have a trombone player, he knew tuba players, but they never had a horn. So, he looked in the union newspaper, because he was in the union. He was one or two guys who played alto horn in the union. And he orders this tuba. He paid like a hundred dollars for it. It came in a wood crate. And one of the only places where we had space in the house was my bedroom. As they say, the rest was history. Cause I looked into it, and it was like the creator wanted me to play this thing, cause I looked in there, I pulled it out, I think I played it once or twice. And I had this concert… I got in this orchestra is pick-up orchestra is called the Harlem Philharmonic. And the Harlem Philharmonic had some great American players. A lot of them graduated from Manhattan School of Music. There was a trumpet player named Wilmer Wise, [Trumpeter Wilmer Wise first came to national prominence with his appointment to the largely non-integrated Baltimore Symphony Orchestra as its assistant principal trumpet player in the early 1960's. This time marked the beginning of the Civil Rights Movement, and Wise played a key role in integrating American orchestras.] who was in there, who was Leonard Bernstein's favorite trumpet player. When Leonard Bernstein recorded West Side Story…there's a video... at one point he stops the whole orchestra and says, “Don't worry about me. Just follow the trumpet player. He's a genius.” You know . So anyway, I got in this orchestra. I waited for the audition, being a kid, didn't eat before the audition. And the audition had the “Tannhäuser” [Wagner opera] in there and this guy is one of those guys who was flowery, he wanted it real slow. 

Tia Imani Hanna: The “Tannhäuser” solo from the solo from Wagner?

Earl McIntyre: Yeah. So, I haven't eaten, I'm playing this big horn and I started playing and I fell asleep. Next thing I know, somebody was touching me, “Are you okay? Are you okay?” So, yeah, I was so worried about being late for the audition, I didn't really eat. I just ran out. He said, “If you get this, you gotta eat.” So anyway, the first concert is in, not Prospect Park, Central Park, at the bandshell, and I'm walking in, and this is like about two weeks after the tuba arrives, walking in and I hear this incredible sound and I thought at first it was a euphonium or baritone horn. They're playing all over this horn, man. And it turns out it's a tuba and the tuba player was Howard Johnson.  

[Howard Lewis Johnson (August 7, 1941 – January 11, 2021) was an American jazz musician, known mainly for his work on tuba and baritone saxophone, although he also played the bass clarinet, trumpet, and other reed instruments.[1]Johnson was known for his extensive work as a sideman, notably with George Gruntz, Hank Crawford, and Gil Evans. As a leader, he fronted the tuba ensemble Gravity and released three albums during the 1990s for Verve Records; the first Arrival, was a tribute to Pharoah Sanders.]

And that came… Howard has been like a mentor and a friend. Oh, gracious, over 50 years. So, that's how I wound up with both the bass trombone and the tuba. 

Tia Imani Hanna: That was an epic journey. 

Earl McIntyre: Yeah, I met some incredible people cause by the time I joined orchestra and then started playing the tuba, from that time, by the time I was 17, I was out on the road with Howard and Taj Mahal. Yeah, it was an epic journey and a fast one too. 

Tia Imani Hanna: Even just the fact that you've passed out at an audition and got it anyway, that's impressive. So, you must a had it going on.

Earl McIntyre: Well, I guess he saw something, and so many of the people, it's incredible when I look back because so many people who were in that orchestra became important in my life. Warren Smith, the great percussionist [Warren Smith (born May 14, 1934) is an American jazz drummer and percussionist, known as a contributor to Max Roach's M ‘boom ensemble and leader of the Composer's Workshop Ensemble (Strata-East).] was also in that orchestra, there's just, like I said, there's so many different folks who are like that. I can't remember the name she uses now, but Sharon Freeman who was a great French horn player and composer, she was there for that. [Ahnee Sharon Freeman is a jazz pianist, French horn player, and arranger. Freeman played French horn for the jazz opera Escalator over the Hill, Gil Evans's 1973 album Svengali, and in 1983 she worked on a piece of jazz Christmas music.[1] In 1982 she joined Charlie Haden's Liberation Music Orchestra and recorded three albums with the group between 1982 and 2004.[2] Freeman has also worked and recorded with Frank Foster, Charles Mingus, Don Cherry, Muhal Richard Abrams, David Murray, and Lionel Hampton, and served as musical director for Don Pullen and for Beaver Harris' 360 Musical Experience.] And then a number of great woodwind players. It was… there was one, oh, Hal Archer. When we talk about African Americans who play classical music, they should have a special place for Hal Archer, cause Hal Archer is such a great flute player, as I believe if I'm correct, he's from Barbados, I think, but he auditioned for the Berlin Philharmonic. And they actually came out, the people who auditioned him, actually came out and told him that he's the best flute player that they heard, but they could not accept him because the conductor would not accept an African American.

Tia Imani Hanna: Wow. that's just sad.

Earl McIntyre: Yeah, it was pretty intense. And a number of the people that I've met in that genre along that way, triumphed past all of that, so yeah.

Tia Imani Hanna: Unbelievable. It was just sad. Sorry to hear that story, it's…

Earl McIntyre: Oh yeah. It's heartbreaking stuff. But so many of those guys, like I was talking about Wilmer Wise. Wilmer Wise also did this thing. He wound up making a big living on Broadway and, incidentally, he was also one of Wynton in Marsalis’ teachers. I met Wynton through Willmar. At one point, just as a lark, Wilmer… usually the trumpets in B flat for most commercial music… on a lark where Wilmer just decided to play everything on a C trumpet for two years.

Tia Imani Hanna: Just because.[laughter]

Earl McIntyre: Just because, he’d say, “I just want to get into the sound.”  He was one of those guys who crossed over quite often later on when I worked with Thad and Mel [Thad Jones Mel Lewis Orchestra] I would look up, and there would be a trumpet forum going on in the back. Cause you would have Jimmy Owens and Donald Byrd and Wilmar cause they all had this kind of cross-influence of Wilmer's interest in jazz and their interest in classical and that whole thing. So yeah. 

Tia Imani Hanna: So where did the crossover come for you? Cause you were playing Salvation Army, and then you played classical. So, where did the jazz come into the mix? 

Earl McIntyre: A couple of different things happened. One thing was that, when I went to the high school music and art, as did my lovely wife Renee. And the students, I think at that point, we all had this thing where we decided that you couldn't talk about any music badly unless you could play it. And Duke Ellington always had that thing where he said, “There's only two kinds of music, good music and bad music.” So, when I was in music and art, I played in orchestra, I played in the symphonic band. I played in what they call the stage band, then, interestingly enough, the bass player in the stage band was a gentleman named Andy Gonzalez, who later became one of the premier bass players of Latin Jazz. And… 

Tia Imani Hanna: Right. Fort Apache right?

Earl McIntyre: And when I came out, when I'd finished my day at school, we had this band uptown in the Bronx, and we would play little weddings and stuff. And we had this scam going on. See when it was an African American wedding, the saxophone player, who was African American, we would call it “The In-Crowd” and we would play Soul and Funk.  But see, the guy… one of the guys in the band happened to be David Valentine, flute player. And a lot of people don't realize it, but he was a percussion major. He had to  lay, like if it was a Latino couple, then David ran the band and we played Latin music. 

Tia Imani Hanna: Because he is primarily known for flute, right?

Earl McIntyre: Yeah, but he was a great Timbalero or too. So, we used to have… we had two trap drummers in the band. And we had, as we say, a Caucasian guy who played organ and he was more into Psychedelic Rock. So, if we had something going on there, then he took over. See. So, we had this whole thing covered. The main thing I learned from that was just that, that ability to adapt and that, I think, has probably taken me through my whole career. It's always been that thing about adapting and playing different kinds of music. And that's always been like exciting for me. 

Tia Imani Hanna: You never run out of things to do if you're doing different stuff.

Earl McIntyre: Oh yeah!

Tia Imani Hanna: Is there a lot of call for country or… ? 

Earl McIntyre: We go through that. Where the kids sometimes they say that to me and say, “What about Country Western?” And I tell them a couple of things. One thing is it, man I love Willie Nelson. He did he did a standards album that's killin. Of course, you had the Ray Charles stuff that, stuff that Ray did, and at different points in my career, I worked with Ray. And then there's also that aspect, because when you work with Taj Mahal, the Americana comes out. See. And Taj Mahal was an expert on the banjo, so much so that when the Smithsonian gets a banjo that they can't figure out, they called Taj. And then also, at a different point in my career, I worked with The Band, the rock group, The Band. And later on, because of that, I also worked with Levon Helm and there's a certain country element to all of that. So yeah, all of that is up in there too. 

Tia Imani Hanna: I wanted to have you talk about that because a lot of people don't understand that.

Earl McIntyre: Oh, would you… listen. First of all, the first thing you have to understand where we talk about the banjo is a North African instrument. That's where it really comes from. And so much of the music, when you hear, it's interesting. When you go back and listen to what they might call Hillbilly, there is still… you can see the connective tissue between it and rural blues. There's a certain thing that's there. And the fiddle is up in there too. So that there's that connection. And it was really interesting to me cause you know, the drummer that used to work with Taj Mahal, he passed away about a year ago, no, I don't think it's even been a year, and his name was Jimmy Odie. He used to play with Little Richard too. And Jimmy was one of those guys, he played great, but he really didn't like life on the road. So, he went back home, which happened to be Nashville. And the last time I talked to him, he was saying, “Man, all over the country Western acts have rediscovered the backbeat. I'm working all the time.” Sure nuff. You listen to that stuff, everybody from the Chicks, listen, that backbeat and its addictive. 

Tia Imani Hanna: The country music now is a lot different than what it used to be in the seventies and the sixties It's not even… it's almost just like regular old pop.

Earl McIntyre: Everything is so diverse, and everything is… the melting pot is happening. There's some, for instance, contemporary gospel that I really like, but then I also, it's almost confusing to me, because I also have this love for the traditional Gospel. And I don't want to see that leave us, I don't think it ever will, but you know what I'm saying? I like all that diversity.

Tia Imani Hanna: Yeah. It's nice to definitely hear the melting pot. I remember not too long ago. I guess it has, by now it's been about 10 years ago, but I happened to cross some videos, some country music videos, and they had black people in them playing drums and stuff. I said, “Whoa, what happened?” Because it never used to be that way. So nice to see that there's, oh okay, it's not just all white people playing country music anymore.

Earl McIntyre: Or listening. It's interesting to me that, especially when you get to certain parts of the Caribbean, you hear a lot of country/western. You hear a lot of Country Western, and I even believe to a certain degree, there's a certain influence on Reggae that happened with that. because when Reggae really started, one of the big influences was the fact that across the Gulf they could get the stations that were down in New Orleans. So, some of the very first Reggae stuff was actually covers of New Orleans Rhythm and Blues. So, you got all of those kind of cross pollination things happening. 

Tia Imani Hanna: So, you've learned all these different kinds of styles. There's the melting pot going on in your head as well as in the music that you're playing. And then, did you start arranging as you went to university? Or where did the arranging come from? 

Earl McIntyre: That's… I'll be honest with you. Of late, I've been trying to figure out more of that myself. No really, because part of what happened, it's like a process and it's a process that I've also used to teach. Now, one thing, of course, I became interested in it when I was with Taj Mahal, amongst other things, because during that period… actually, I guess it was a little bit before then now that I think of it. One of the people who became very important in our lives, when you talk about myself and Renee and Buddy Williams and David Valentine, and many of us who came to music and art, and he's…this guy is one of the unsung heroes of the music. There was a guy named William Fisher. Bill Fisher. Now Bill Fisher, amongst other things, he graduated at the top… he's from New Orleans, graduated top of his class. I think it was at the Vienna Conservatory. And then went out on the road, playing tenor saxophone with Ivory Joe Hunter. [October 10, 1914 – November 8, 1974, Joe Hunter was an American rhythm-and-blues singer, songwriter, and pianist. After a series of hits on the US R&B chart starting in the mid-1940s, he became more widely known for his hit recording "Since I Met You Baby," 1956.] So now, Bill Fisher was a teacher in music and art, but he was also, at a different point, the musical director for Atlantic Records. He wrote arrangements for McCoy Tyner, for Herbie Mann, for Yusef Lateef, he wrote Roberta Flack's first album, he did stuff for Aretha (Franklin), and just wide stuff too, a lot of strings stuff, a lot of whatever. So, he was in Music and Art. And I, one of the first things I wrote, was in Music and Art. And he talks slowly. He always t a l k e d  l i k e  t h i s [speaking very slowly]. So, I was excited when I realized some stuff about him. Cause even when we were in school, he would go to Europe and do Stockhaüser concerts. So, at one point I said, Mr. Fisher, “I'm going to take your composition class.” And he says, “Y o u  d o n’ t  w a n n a  d o  t h a t?  A l l  t h a t' s  g o n n a  h a p p e n  i s  I' m  g o i n g  t o  h a v e  t o  g i v e  y o u  s o m e t h I n g  h a r d  t o  d o  

t h a t  y o u  n e v e r, e v e r  g o n n a  u s e.” Of course, I was confused by this. So, finally I said Mr. Fisher, what should I do? He says, “T a k e  m y  20th  c e n t u r y  l i s t e n i n g  

c o u r s e.” Okay. So, I take the course. The first day… let me see if I can get straight… The first day he played Alban Berg, Louis Armstrong, BB King, and Miles Davis’ “Witch’s Brew.” And he showed the relationship to all of them. That was the first day. And I always loved him because he would say stuff like, “T o  u n d e r  s t a n d  A l b a n  B e r g,  y o u  h a v e   t o  

k n o w  w h e r e  h e  l i v e d.  V i e n n a  i s  c o l d  a n d  r a I n y.  Y o u  c a n  h e a r  t h a t  i n  t h e  m u s i c.  H e  l i k e d  t o  l i s t e n  t o  j a z z  r h y t h m s  a n d  h e  t r i e d  to  

a p p r o x i m a t e  t h e m  i n  h i s  c o m p o s i t i o n s.” Then there's this long pause and he say, “H e  d i d n't  q u i t e  g e t  i t.” Yeah, but Bill, through my whole life, he has been one of the ones that not just telling me what's going on, but what's going to happen. I'll give you an idea of the kind of guy that  Bill is. And this was like, oh, had to be over 20 years. No more than 20 years after I got out of Music and Art. I get this call from Bill Fisher and he says, “E a r l,  I  n e e d  y o u  f o r  a  r e c o r d  d a t e.  W e'r e  g o i n g  t o  p l a y  “T h e  

S t a r – S p a n g l e d  B a n n e r.”  I  n e e d  s o m e  t r u m p e t  p l a y e r s.  G i v e  m e   

t w o  o r  t h r e e,  t h r e e. O n e s  t h a t  c a n  p l a y  f a n f a r e s,  t h e  t y p e.  I t's 

g o i n g  t o  b e  a t  t h i s  s t u d i o  t h r e e  o' c l o c k  o n  T h u r s d a y.” Click.  Okay. So now, I get in the studio and I come to find out that what it really is, that somebody doing an animated film short on “The Star-Spangled Banner,” and particularly featuring the antiwar verses the we never sing. Yeah. Okay. So, I do the date and now I had another project and I had to go up to Bill's house. And so, Bill I said… Oh, I forgot to key part… who's singing it. Aretha Franklin. [laughter] So, I go up to Bill's house. So, Bill, man, how'd the thing go with Aretha? Okay. I'd worked some with Aretha as well. “O h,  I  h a d  t o  g o  b a c k  t o  

D e t r o i t  b e c a u s e  A r e t h a  w o n't  f l y.  S o  I  c o m e  t o  D e t r o i t,  t h e  f i r s t  

d a y  i n  t h e  s t u d i o,  n o  A r e t h a.  T h e  s e c o n d  d a y  i n  t h e  s t u d i o,   

A r e t h a's  l i m o u s i n e  p u l l s  u p,  s h e  s t a y s  i n s i d e  a n d  e a t s  c h I c k e n.  

N e v e r  m a d e  i t  i n t o  t h e  s t u d i o. [laughter]T h i r d  d a y,  A r e t h a  m a k e s  i t  i n t o  t h e  s t u d i o.  W e  w e r e  f i n i s h e d  i n  45  m i n u t e s.” [laughter] To… like I say, but through that, watching him, I did that. I used to work at a spot called Boogie-Woogie where all the… listen, Tia , you could walk in the one room and the original Weather Report would be in there with Joe Zawinul and Wayne Shorter and  Miroslav Vitouš, and Al Mouzon, and Airto (Moreira). The other room would have Cannonball Adderly's group with George Duke, right? It was a demo studio. Everybody came to this spot. Richard Pryor, Miles Davis, Woody Shaw, Nina Simone. You never knew who's going to be at the door. We used to do demos. So, for instance, we did Angela Bofills' first demo. And what I would do is, they want some extra on these little demo tracks and how I got into writing for choirs. When I say choirs, I would write a track with all flutes, but Piccolo C flute Alto Bass, if they had, or all brass. And I started doing that. Then, as luck would have it, I worked for, you might as well say, an incredible array of the world's greatest arrangers Thad Jones, Bill Evans, Carla Bley, Gerald Wilson, Oliver Nelson, and the list just goes on. And when I would be working for these guys, especially with Thad, and when I heard something I liked, I got into just going in and pulling out all the sax parts and making my own little score and seeing what was there. And the later on, I studied a little bit formerly with Slide Hampton and Slide really got me into analysis. And then I even had a couple of lessons with Bob Brookmeyer too, but much of what I got came from working with those great arrangers and copying that stuff down and listening and just… and also listening to who they said that they listened to. There's a great story. There's a great arranger, Billy Byers and Billy Byers, He's one of those guys who could write an arrangement and seemed like in 10 seconds. He did a lot of Broadway, a lot of commercial stuff. He did the Cotton Club; he did this and that. And somebody asked him about arrangements, and about teaching orchestration and arranging. And he said, “No, probably all I would do is sit you down in my house with a couple of beers and we would listen to arrangements by Robert Farnon.” [Robert Joseph Farnon CM[1] - 24 July 1917 – 23 April 2005 - was a Canadian-born composer, conductor, musical arranger and trumpet player. As well as being a composer of original works (often in the light music genre), he was commissioned by film and television producers for theme and incidental music. In later life he composed a number of more serious orchestral works, including three symphonies, and was recognized with four Ivor Novello awards and the Order of Canada.] Now, when he said that, I didn't know who Robert Farnon was. And then when I talked to all of my mentors, like people like JJ Johnson and Benny Golson and Jimmy Heath, all these guys, turns out they knew Robert Farnon. So much so that one of his last records or recordings was JJ hired Robert Farnon to write all the orchestral arrangements for a JJ Johnson album called “Tangence.”  And JJ was a good arranger himself now. So, it turns out that Robert Farnon was one of these guys who, like in the thirties and forties, it must have been a little bit later, but the score to the original Captain Horatio Hornblower. When all this stuff was big, he was the guy. And he's one of these guys who wrote… he had the same attention to detail that for instance, Ravel has. And so, everything is in its place and those guys really admired him. And I was blessed because I admired them. And then, through JJ, I got a chance to talk to him. And even in that 10-minute conversation, I learned a lot. Yeah. Just because of their approach and just what he was looking for. And it was just amazing. I learned… same thing happened, I learned more in a cab ride. I took a cab ride with Jimmy Owens and Gerald Wilson and we went from, you might as well say, Oh, it was that L. I. U. [Long Island University] In Brooklyn to Midtown in Manhattan. And I learned more in that conversation than in two years in the BMI Writer's Workshop. 

Tia Imani Hanna: I believe you.

Earl McIntyre: He was amazing, man. Guys like that, sometimes even the way they just look at you will tell you more. One of the things that was interesting is the way I got to speak with him, was I was JJ Johnson's music supervisor towards the end of his life, like the brass orchestra recording. And there's another record called “Unsung Heroes.” And he wanted me to edit his method book and different stuff. But anyway, JJ asked Robert to write an arrangement on JJ’s “Lament ” And it was all for brass. So, I get the score and JJ wants me to copy it, and I called JJ, “JJ. It says here something about metal mutes, but I don't know what he means.” JJ was very particular. “That's very interesting. I don't know what he means either. That could mean a lot of different things. You should call Robert.” And he lived on the Isle of Wight. That’s why Robert's got to be, I guess he… I think he had turned 80 by then. And I called him, and he says you have to understand that when you make a straight mute for a trumpet, it could be made by plastic or it could be made with cardboard or metal. When you have metal, the sound has a certain ping to it that you can use when it's mated with the percussion. Cortals, and that kind of stuff. I've never been shown where there's (can’t decipher), the finger symbols. And when you mate it with that sound, you get a very distinctive kind of ping. And I was like, “Okay.” And like I said, wow, all right. But that's what I'm talking about when I say, ‘attention to detail’. And if I learned anything from him and particularly JJ, because JJ was a fiend for detail, that's one of the things that, especially in my more mature years, one of the things I've really tried to come to grips with and really be better at, is attention to detail in the arrangements and the performance and the preparation. So much of it is in there.

Tia Imani Hanna: There's so much to that. It takes so long just to learn how to play the instrument you're playing, and then you have to learn how to play, write it, and arrange it and understand all the details and understand how to even… how the voicings work, and how the different layers, and the different octaves and the different clefs. And there's just so much. I'm always in awe of people who can do it. Because I try a little bit, but I haven't gone that deep cause it just takes more time than I have. 

Earl McIntyre: You got to look at it different too. One of the things that it also took me a while to learn is that… And I learned to actually, okay, I learned it because I had no choice. It was just that quite often when, especially when, you start writing large things, you're always thinking, like you panic, when you hear somebody say we need a 40-minute piece and you keep thinking, I got to have all these ideas. And the truth of the matter is, you only need one or two really good ones. I mean, listen, and as they say, the rest is history. And I had a thing where when Lester Bowie… [Lester Bowie - October 11, 1941 – November 8, 1999 - was an American jazz trumpet player and composer. He was a member of the Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians and co-founded the Art Ensemble of Chicago.] He was very sick. And I think at that point he had stage four liver cancer and he really didn't have long to be with us. And he had this thing going on, where he was going to be at the at the Chicago Jazz Fest. And he called me up and he says, “Listen, man, we needed a piece for the Jazz Fest and it's a 40-minute big band piece. And I need it by Tuesday.” And this is Thursday.  I say, “I'm gonna come back and I'll give you some ideas.” So, he shows up and he has two pages of single line melodies with no changes. And he said, “Listen, I'll come back and bring you some stuff. Tomorrow I have to go and have a full body transfusion.” 

Tia Imani Hanna: Oh, my goodness. 

Earl McIntyre: And I said, “Lester, I got this.” And I sat down, and I found these melodies and I just started twirling with the melodies and just looking at every aspect. And I did it compositionally. And I finished the piece, and I went to his house and I gave him the parts and the score. And I told him,” Lester, a couple places, you just play this simple melody, the rest of the time, just conduct small strokes like that.” And when I gave him that music Tia, that was the last time I saw him alive.

Tia Imani Hanna: Oh, my goodness. 

Earl McIntyre: Yeah, it was pretty heavy. But like I say, from those kinds of situations, I started to realize that so much of the music is in the development. And you also start to realize that along with the development of the music is a development of the spirit. It all kinds of goes.

Tia Imani Hanna: So, would you say that your attempts at creating music, playing music, writing music, arranging music, is to develop the spirit of yourself and others, or is it a calling?

Earl McIntyre: It's a combination. It's a combination of all those things. It's also therapeutic in some aspects and it helps me. And hopefully it helps the people that hear it. There's a great story. You might've been around when this happened. Years ago, at the Brooklyn conservatory, I booked Airto Moreira, to do a solo concert.

Tia Imani Hanna: Oh, I was there.

Earl McIntyre: Airto gets on the bandstand and he starts talking about his life. And one of the stories he tells is about being a toddler and they thought he was sick. And they thought he was having tantrums, there was some kind of problem. And it was poor family. They pulled together the mother, the money, the grandmother comes up, and they’re getting ready to take Airto to the hospital, and all of a sudden, he starts to have a conniption. And then the grandma says, “Wait a minute.” And she walks over to the radio and turns it down. And Airto stops. Turns it back up, Airto goes back up again. Finally, the grandmother said, “It's even worse than I thought. He's a musician!” So sometimes, as he says, you don't choose, music chooses you. So, I think it's a combination of things like that, but it is an amazing thing. And you're going to have my lovely wife at some point and one of the things that we both will never forget is that some years ago, in Cobble Hill, we love to go and play for the seniors. And it's a big challenge because they remember. 

Tia Imani Hanna: Oh, Cobble Hills, is that a nursing home or a retirement center, or…? 

Earl McIntyre: This was a retirement center. So, we play… and, in fact, it was not, it was a, yeah, it was a senior citizen center. Correct. So, we’re playing a bunch of different stuff. And there's a woman sitting there in a wheelchair. So, like I say, you got to play everything. Cause you play a Tarentella, they know it. You play James Brown, they know it. So, we decided to play this James Brown. We start playing and I look over at the head of the senior center and tears are coming down her eyes. I'm trying to figure out what's going on. And then I look up and I realize the woman who's in the wheelchair is up and dancing. And that's the first time she'd been out of the wheelchair in 11 years.

Tia Imani Hanna: Wow. Wow. 

Earl McIntyre: 11 years. Yeah. You know what I mean? 

Tia Imani Hanna: I do. It's important. 

Earl McIntyre: Like David Amran is another one of our mentors, David, you're probably familiar with Dave. I think he… you were around for some of that too. But David Amram wrote the original score for “Splendor in the Grass” and the “Manchurian Candidate.” So, he sees the stuff we do, particularly with seniors and young people. He always says we're doing God's work. And in a way, I think he's right. That's important stuff. Then we… everybody needs to get involved. 

Tia Imani Hanna: True that. So, what are you working on these days? 

Earl McIntyre: Couple of things. Of course, I'm still active with Arturo O'Farrill’s Band. And we do virtual Birdland. We do virtual Birdland, and we do virtual performances just about every week. Okay. So, there's that. Okay. So, we got that going on. Recently, I did a project which you'll see out there for Midori and Friends featuring a bunch of their artists. It's a holiday card and it's winter wonderland thing. And they wanted something that would show all their… a lot of their artists… that they're going to use virtually. It's close to about 30 or 40 people. And I wrote the arrangement and in the middle of it, they had a tango group. So, I wrote it. I wrote a tango version in the middle of this arrangement of “Winter Wonderland.”  And then we found out that the tango folks, cause they were going to dance, but some of them got sick with the COVID thing and all of this, so we have since managed to open with a couple of other luminaries who you'll recognize when you see it. 

So, Midori and  friends it's coming up or it's already out?

Earl McIntyre: It's still editing. Okay. It will be out by Christmas. 

Tia Imani Hanna: Okay. We'll look for it for sure. 

Earl McIntyre: And it's a great cause. So, we put in them some of the luminaries. Renee is singing on it though.

Tia Imani Hanna: Oh, nice.

Earl McIntyre: So, it came up pretty well. So, we're doing that. One of my long-term projects has been… and I do this thing through Unsung Heroes, who I write music to commemorate people who I think who are important in my life and who you don't hear as much about, so like for instance, I wrote up a thing on Father Divine.

Tia Imani Hanna: Father Divine? 

Earl McIntyre: You hip to him? 

Tia Imani Hanna: No.

Earl McIntyre: Okay. Father Divine, during the Depression, was a minister who… his rap, what they tried to get him on was that he claimed he was God. Really a lot of what he was saying was that there is God in everybody. But, during the Depression, he influenced a lot of people to make their own money. But one of the things he did was that if you went into his one of his spots or ministries, put something ridiculous, like a quarter, you get a full meal, so he fed thousands of people, but he had a very diverse congregation. And because of that, he was a threat. So, they eventually got him on tax evasion, put him in jail. And he said, “Oh, I feel really badly about this. I feel really badly about this. Cause I don't know how many people will be here when I get out.” And sure enough, I think the way it goes is the judge, the D.A. and the foreman all died of mysterious causes. Yeah, no, it's a very weird story. And I've always wondered, I wasn't sure how I felt about this man, because you hear a lot of good and a lot of bad. Lot of people under his influence got houses and the whole nine yards, so the writing becomes therapeutic and me deciding how I feel. Also, you ever hear of Satchel Paige? 

Tia Imani Hanna: Yes. 

Earl McIntyre: Okay. I wrote about Satchel Paige, and one of the things I love about Satchel Paige, I really believe Satchel Paige, I think, he's… people will say that he's probably the greatest pitcher ever. When I was a kid, they used to have a show called “You Asked for It.” One of the things they had was, they would take a goalpost, something that looked like a goalpost, maybe be a little bit lower and they tied them up upside down and he would throw strikes. He pitched, I think the rap was, he pitched two or three no hitters in one day.

Tia Imani Hanna: Wow.

Earl McIntyre: But for me, with all of that, Satchel Paige pitching was his day gig. For me, he was a philosopher. You can look him up, but some of the stuff he said was just modern-day philosophy, like one of his is like... how so I say this thing? “Don't pray when it's raining if you didn't pray when the sun was shining.” That was one of his. Another one, how’s he say this thing, says, oh, “Work like you don't need the money.” “Dance like nobody's watching.” And “Love like you’ve never been hurt.” But there's just always, he's always got something, something like that going on, but there's a whole, there's a whole list of them. And then when he describes his pitches, they're just, it’s just classic. He's just one of those people, every word is a gem. 

Tia Imani Hanna: He was also overlooked because he was Black during the time of Jim Crow. 

Earl McIntyre: Oh, listen. Do you realize he was the oldest rookie in American baseball? He still is. He was a rookie at 40 years old and killed it. I mean, you know, but there's just so many things. Oh, when they put him in the Hall of Fame, he said… how did he put this thing? He says, “Now Satchel gets a chance to go from being a second-class citizen to the second-class hero,” or something like that. But he just always… so he's another one. Another one I wrote about was a great boxer, Sam Langford. Sam Langford came out after Jack Johnson, but they were  frightened of having another African American champion. So, he literally, and he admitted, he chased Jack Dempsey around and Jack wouldn't fight him. He said he didn't fight him til he's much older because he was really worried about it. They used to call him the Boston Tar Baby. One of the reasons was that he was legally blind. He was fighting. But if he caught you…

Tia Imani Hanna: How?

Earl McIntyre: It was over.  Yeah, but this is amazing cat, and he's considered one of the fourth… I think it was like something like the fourth greatest heavyweight of all time, but nobody knows about him. See what I mean? So, I've made it a thing where every year I write about a few different people. I did a whole thing, I did a thing for 40-piece orchestra on the great poet, did “Melindy Sings” and… Paul Laurence Dunbar, used to do dialect poetry. And I wrote… years ago I wrote a piece. In fact, it featured Lester Bowie and David Langston Smyrl and John Stubblefield, and 40-piece orchestra. So, all of those kinds of things, every year I try and do a couple. I'm trying to create some dialogue about these folks. Cause especially younger players, younger children don't know about it. I redid it for all brass. 

[Rivals plays here.]

Now we're starting to do virtual stuff in the schools. And one of the projects is going to be a social justice project. So, I'm hoping to be able to shed some light on a bunch of that kind of stuff. Right now, a lot of our stuff, we are starting to go into the schools to do that. Like I said, I have been doing the stuff with Arturo. Renee and I have our own projects we're starting to work on again. And now as I master more of the tech stuff, I'm hoping to do some other virtual stuff on our own, cause I'm… I've been writing and doing stuff, so go into school orchestras of New York. And so, I've been doing virtual stuff for them and for New Jersey Performing Arts Center, the Jazz for Teens program and all that kind of stuff. But now we're at that point where we want to start to do our own virtual things and I'm looking at different projects, particularly hoping to get some more of the ‘unsung hero’ stuff done. And both Renee and I are way past doing our own CDs. So, folks have been trying to light a fire under us about that. So that's going to be coming around soon, I can tell. 

Tia Imani Hanna: Now, you and Renee have a school, right?

Earl McIntyre: Yes, absolutely. That's part of it, Excelsior Music Studio. And we tend to… we deal with a lot of different students that we're prepping, some for college now. But a lot of what we do is with seniors and, during the COVID crisis, one of the things that's been happening, and you could talk to her more about this, but Renee does a happy hour because she had senior choir. And, of course, it's hard for the senior choir to meet and we're always worried about the state of mind and just about our seniors in general. And one of the things that Renee started to do, just on a lark, is she got this happy hour happening. It's three o'clock on Saturdays now. And they get together and she's… she sets up stuff so that they can sing together to a track, they mute and sing and listen, and they have a dialogue, and they get to see each other. And we always crack up because, three o'clock they say, no, this is happy hour. You got to get your drink on. No, listen. They've got everything from hard cider, somebody had some kind of scotch or something. And Renee said, “I can't drink right now.” “You need to get up at eight and take your meds so you can have a drink with us.” They're like our new moms and dads. And so much of what happens, I'm not going to spoil it for you, you got to tune in and hear Renee talk about the seniors because they are the new… Tia, they are the new teenagers, man. You hear the stuff that you do. I won't even tell you what senior it was, but recently I had a situation where... the stuff that they're doing, just remind you of stuff in your youth, what they… what you find in their pockets and they just, yeah, but not just that, but you forget that where our grandparents were, everybody's in much better shape, physically doing stuff. Like, even at one point, we did this thing called the senior prom, right? Like I said, it was one of the toughest gigs we do, because we literally… you'd have to be able to do a Tarantella or a Horah, Latin music, James Brown, everything. So, we do this. And when they call it the senior prom, they mean ‘senior prom’. They come dressed to the nines and I think they said the median age was something like 75 or something like that. Now I'm going to ask you, Tia, at the end of the night, cause remember we, I think we did two, three sets and all the politicians would show up because they know those folks’ votes. Who do you think was on the floor at the end of the night?

Tia Imani Hanna: All the old folks. 

Earl McIntyre: Yeah, but which ones?

Tia Imani Hanna: The oldest ones? 

Earl McIntyre: Yep. The 90-year-olds. The 90-year-olds. And they would be on the floor. One year, and it broke our heart, because one year we had one that showed up all the time and she said. “I don't know if I'll be here next year.” And she was 93 or four. But that's the hardest part about working with them is you develop these relationships. And, sometimes, Renee meets the choir at the table. When, before COVID that she used to give this speech, “Listen, nobody leaves the table. Don't ya'll be doin’ nuthin’. You be here next week.” Cause you just can't handle the emotional thing, but they brought a lot to our lives and, hopefully, we brought a lot to theirs. And then, of course, we got the little ones, and we deal with them. We deal with people at every age and whatever they bring, we deal. Fortunately. We've taught, literally, from preschool to a hundred and then had a bridge all the way though.

Tia Imani Hanna: Yeah, I've been at some of the concerts that you all used to do at the Brooklyn Conservatory of Music. Those were fun. Everybody from all ages, and it was always a party, and everybody was having a good time. So, you were definitely bringing joy to the world, especially the Christmas concert every year. That was fantastic. So, I know you guys are still doing the same thing and with COVID, I'm sure it was a little bit more intense and different, because it's virtual, but are you all doing something this year for the Christmas concert?

Earl McIntyre: You know what? I think they're going to get together and just do a small thing. Cause Renee was just talking to me about… I think they're going to do it the Saturday after Christmas, they're going to do a Zoom thing, but we've been doing that. We've been putting together some stuff. And, like I say, Renee and I are planning to put out a little Christmas card and stay tuned because we have a very special version of Auld Lang Syne that we're sharing with everybody. I think you've heard about. I don't know if you've heard the recorded version, the recording version has a bunch of luminaries on it. Lester Bowie and when I think about some of the people who are on Renee's first album, it's actually incredible. But I think Lester Bowie is on there. And then, we got folks like Nat Adderly, Jr.   and Jerome Harris and Buddy Williams and the rhythm section and Howard Johnson's playing baritone, and the horn section, and all kinds of folks, and then you can hear it. It sounds if it was a party and it sounds like it.

Tia Imani Hanna: That's fantastic. 

[“Auld Lang Syne” plays here] 

Earl McIntyre: I wrote a bunch of things that commemorated different people. I think I said I sent you “Witch's Samba,” which is a commemorative of a relationship my brother had with a lady.

Tia Imani Hanna: Okay. [laughter]

Earl McIntyre: My brother was sick, he passed away from MS. And in that period, he met this lady from Brazil and became enamored with her, and got a little strange towards the end, but that's what that song is about.  

[“Witch's Samba” plays here] 

There is a tune on it that Renee sings. She makes almost like a cameo appearance. It's actually, I rewrote it. I rearranged it for… he's from Trinidad, but he's of Indian extraction. He's one of these people who used to work like three or four jobs, and then the weekend comes, and he goes out, he parties hard. He drinks. He dances. He just has an incredible time over the weekend. And then he goes back to work. You know. But when he's working all these jobs, and as I looked at it, I then also realized something that was rather interesting in the house, in the family, there's this is whole relationship between women, African American women of a Southern background and males with a Caribbean background. And many other relationships are based in that. Like on my end, I'm… my mother is from Barbados, is Beigen, [Renee and Earl's slang for mixed race].  Renee's folks are from down South, then her sister married Singh and he's from Trinidad. Their daughter married a guy who's from Haiti and she's got a Southern background and it just keeps going like this. So that it's called a Second Line Soca because of that. And the tune and arrangement reflects all that, cause you hear the Caribbean thing at one point and then at another point it's got a kind of like Second Line, New Orleans thing going on and so yeah.

Tia Imani Hanna: Fantastic. 

[“Second Line Soca and Brudda Singh”]

Tia Imani Hanna: Where can we find you online? 

Earl McIntyre: Oh, that's a good point. Of course, you can always find us on Facebook and all that kind of stuff, but you can also check out ExcelsiorMusicStudio.com, you know, which is something we're working on over the holidays to bring some new stuff to that. 

Tia Imani Hanna: Okay.

Earl McIntyre: On YouTube, if you look up “Renee Manning, Earl McEntire Septet” or even “Renee Manning,” and because most of the time Renee Manning, I'm there somewhere. I always say I'm the silent partner.

Tia Imani Hanna: I wouldn't say silent. You hear both of you guys in your music, so it's fantastic.

Earl McIntyre: Oh, some performances there, some live performances from Birdland, which are quite special. Trying to remember if they took this one… I'm trying to remember if they took it down, but there's a version on there. Cause you know, when we went into Birdland and we just found out that Aretha had passed on and Renee sings this really deep version of “Dr. Feelgood” and not of Aretha, but there's a lot of stuff on there on YouTube. And you can look at stuff together or separately and there's a pretty decent body of stuff that you can check us out.

Tia Imani Hanna: Thank you so much for being on Tia Time today, and I appreciate your willingness to share your stories and your heart and your warmth and your music. And we're going to be looking out for you. And I'm going to talk to Renee, and we'll have her on and then it'll be the family affair. Thank you so much. 

Earl McIntyre: Thank you. And now Tia, we need to do something here. If I thought about it, I would have figured out something, we going to have to do something, I'm always… one thing I should say is… you'll love this. This is something else I should have done a way to show it to you. But since I've been working with the interschool orchestras of New York, my whole string thing, I've been doing a lot more string writing. One of the projects I didn't mention is that, during the COVID thing, I worked on a thing where I wanted something for the kids to play, for the younger students to play, and everybody was playing this stuff that ‘we're going to get through COVID’, and it still had this sad kind of feel to it, and I wanted something that was fun. Looking for a classical piece because they had a full orchestra and we also did something with the Mingus, the dynasties, a septet, and full orchestra for them. But this particular project, I was looking for something special, a classical piece that I can make fun. So, I started thinking about “The William Tell Overture.” And then I started thinking, cause when we were  kids, you always saw the Lone Ranger riding furiously to “William Tell Overture,” and I started thinking the Lone Ranger and Tonto, they couldn't have been in a hurry all the time. If you slow it down, [sings a scat] it turns into Reggae. So, I did a version of the “William Tell Overture” with a reggae band for the ISO thing. So that's another… when you're talking about cross-pollination. 

Tia Imani Hanna: That's fantastic. I love that. Really great.

Earl McIntyre: And you actually animated this thing of the Lone Ranger going like this. [laughter] Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to see you doing this. This is the time to be doing this kind of stuff because otherwise, they say history will be his story. It won't be our story. 

Tia Imani Hanna: Thanks a lot Earl. 

Earl McIntyre: And have happy holidays.

Tia Imani Hanna: Happy holidays to you. Bye.

UPDATE: Now I recorded this session before Christmas with Earl, and then I found out on Christmas day, the new movie “Soul” came out and I enjoyed the movie thoroughly. And I watched the end credits, which I always do. And I saw Earl McIntyre’s name in the credits as a consultant. Then I watched the extras and found out that he was definitely one of the extras and they had him on screen talking. So, if you get a chance to see that movie, watch the extras. Anyway, I called Earl back immediately and spoke to him about the movie “Soul.”  . So, here's that part of the interview:

Tia Imani Hanna: So Earl, tell me about “Soul,” the movie. That's a Pixar movie. It's about a jazz musician who has to figure out some things in his life. It is an animated feature and you're involved in this. And tell me all about this. 

Earl McIntyre: Well, it's interesting, cause I got a call from Patience Higgins, great tenor saxophone player, and he said that a guy wanted, a contractor from Los Angeles, wanted to speak with me about being involved in this movie and, sure enough, he calls and he asked me a few questions. And then the next thing I know I'm talking to Pete Doctor, who is the director of “Soul” and a couple of other people at Pixar. And they questioned me about jazz musicians and clubs and all of that kind of stuff. And Pete plays bass. He's been involved with the music for quite some time. We had a great conversation and then I hung up and I didn't think any more about it. Then a couple of months go by, and they call me up and say, listen I actually, in fact, they sent me an email and they said, “Listen, we want you to come out to California to talk some more about the movie, and we'll set up flights for you and the whole thing and the hotel, and Pixar.” Now you have to understand my youngest daughter has a degree. She has a split degree in biology and animation. So, she's very involved in that. I didn't even tell her, I just… I basically talked to them, said,  “Would you mind if I bring my daughter?” And I explained it, and he said, “No, you got to bring her.” So, it was right around her birthday and I just handed a card saying that she was coming to with me to Pixar. Of course, she just freaked out. 

Tia Imani Hanna: I bet.

Earl McIntyre: So yeah. We go out there and first thing is the whole place is just amazing, if for no other reason cause they, of course, they took us on the tour and one of the things that really stood out that was amazing to me was that the workspace for all the animators, they really let them decorate it the way they want it. So, for instance, and Pete was involved in "UP" and a couple of, he wrote on, they always revolve, so, for instance, he wrote on “Toy Story,” he directed "UP" and few others and there's one animator, they decided there was a scene from the movie where the characters were living in an airplane hull that had crashed and it had all the growth, the weeds and everything. And so, their turned the office into a replica of that. Another one turned their office into a replica of a speakeasy, including an opening hidden door and the whole nine yards. So, that was part of it. Now, as far as the discussion show stuff, we got there, Herbie Hancock was there. And I hadn't had a chance to really talk to Herbie in, like, years and Terry Lynn Carrington was there. So that was  great. And we just talked about… and they were very attentive. I have to tell you I was really pleasantly surprised because I've dealt with some movie people who just… I did the "Cotton Club" and that was a whole ‘nother kind of experience, but he really… they really went a long way in terms of trying to understand. They asked us about the dynamic of clubs and what the clubs were like and musicians, the whole nine yards. And at one point I, I told them after, as a matter, I told them that something looks strange with the way the young lady in the movie was playing the trombone. And then when I saw the final cut. They really got it down. It was… it's better than any other film I've ever seen with somebody playing the trombone because she really has the positions down. And then I found out that they actually took… they actually filmed folks and made sure that it matched up. So, they really went to a great degree to try and get it right. There's some, any movie there's going to be some issues, but I have to say that I can't think of one that's better in that regard, unless you're not counting like documentaries, of course, where the people actually playing in there. But it was really, a really nice experience to see somebody take the music, like, seriously and try and figure out how to do this. 

Tia Imani Hanna: We did the first part of our recording on this interview before the movie came out on Christmas. So, I called you back today to talk a little bit about this because we didn't even talk about this movie, now I don't know if you were on restriction before to talk about it.

Earl McIntyre: I was.

Tia Imani Hanna: And then I saw the movie and I loved the movie. It was one of the best movies I've seen that actually did talk about Jazz and they actually play Jazz. Cause some movies say it's Jazz and there's no Jazz in the movie at all. This is the first time I've heard real Jazz and Tia Fuller was killin. And was it Jon Batiste, was killin. And I was just so thrilled to see that. And then I went to look at the extras and I saw your face there. And I looked at the credits. I usually do watch the credits and I said, “Wait, that's Earl!”

Earl McIntyre: It's one of those things I couldn't even tell you truth. I have pictures of myself with Herbie and different ones, and I couldn't even share that stuff online because the gag clause and I can understand it cause people, they steal the stuff before it even hits the air. So, Pixar is really tight about that. It should be, and I hope that with the success of this movie that people continue to move in that direction. Cause not only is it's deep in terms of the Jazz part of it and the part about the African American community, because some of the shots of that are really interesting, but also his subject matter. This is, there's some things that go through all of this stuff that, all of this stuff that are like, how can I say, more cerebral than you would think of in that kind of movie. 

Tia Imani Hanna: Yes. I think we've gotten to the point now where we realize that animation is not just for kid’s stuff. And that we are doing full length feature films that are real films that are happened to be animated, as opposed to it's a kid's movie. So, I think that animation is finally evolved to the point where people appreciate it as a… just a true art form just as they would film. So, it's… but that's pretty exciting that they flew you out there, you got to take your daughter, you got to talk with Herbie Hancock and other musicians that were there and Terry Lynn Carrington. And so, I was just pleased to say, “I know that guy.”

[laughter] 

Earl McIntyre: Yeah. The other thing that was great about it, that I thought was exceptional, was the involvement of the kids. Cause you know, the kids actually played on the soundtrack. When we did the… we did this like a virtual red-carpet thing and they had a whole thing for the kids from that school, and they also made sure that they included educators who had to deal with kids at that age to get… they got a lot of input from really good people in terms of the reality of those kinds of situations.

Tia Imani Hanna: So you were considered part of the… what's the advisory board, or what did they call them?

Earl McIntyre: I'm not even sure how they figure out all that, cause a lot of folks that I was with, we were considered consultants. I was considered an advisor. It could have been about who's available here or there. When you start talking about movie people and credits, if you think that you understand it, then you really got a problem. But like I say, most of the folks I think that I was there with were under the consultant thing. They may have done another session. I may not have been available. I can't remember how… I'm not sure how all of that worked, but I was just pleased to be involved with it. And it was very interesting to hear different takes on what we do and where we do it. Cause I had a very interesting conversation, when we talk about clubs and myself and one of the other folks that had a very different concept of the clubs. I think one of the theoretical questions involving a motion picture like that has to do with, do you want it to portray clubs as you know them, for instance, or do you want to portray clubs as you'd like to see them? And I'm always the one, I don't know, I like it like to portray it the way we see them. I think that there's a certain thing about the grit and the club and the folks that hang out in the club that have always added to the music. It's like a thing, at one point we did a concert and a bunch of us who've been in music for years, and we were talking about education, and we were just saying that we can teach you chords and scales, but we can't teach you to have a personality. 

Tia Imani Hanna: True that.

Earl McIntyre: And so much that, when you hung out with those clubs, there were these personalities and all of that. It's hard to separate that in that culture from the music. And I don't think we necessarily want to, so yeah, that's a big part of it. 

Tia Imani Hanna: I'm so pleased to see that you were on and involved in that. And thanks for coming back on to talk about that today. So, I appreciate it. And I'm to let you go. I just needed that little bit, so wait a minute. 

Earl McIntyre: You got it now, and I'm glad to see you doing this. It's a lot of people are sleeping on it, but you know what they say about his story? It's his story. If you want it to be your story, then you better get up off of it and start doing stuff like this so that's a good thing. So, you take care of yourself. You be safe. 

Tia Imani Hanna: Thank you.

Earl McIntyre: Bye-bye.

Tia Imani Hanna: Thank you for joining us this week on Tia Time with Artists. Make sure to visit our website, tiaviolin.com, where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes and never miss an episode. Please leave us a rating wherever you listen to podcasts. We really appreciate your comments, and we'll mine them to bring you more amazing episodes. 

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