Can You Optimize People Without Treating Them Like Machines?

Can you optimize people without treating them like machines?

That question sparked a thoughtful conversation between Dr. Linda and Brian Schubring about what healthy leadership really looks like. While organizations naturally want high-performing teams, the goal isn't to squeeze more productivity out of people—it's to create environments where individuals can thrive while helping the organization succeed.

In this episode, we explore why the word "optimize" can feel uncomfortable when applied to people, how healthy organizations balance business results with employee well-being, and why culture should be viewed as a long-term investment rather than a short-term metric.

In this episode:

•  Why the idea of "optimizing people" can miss the point 
•  The difference between maximizing performance and developing human potential 
•  What the "double bottom line" means for leaders 
•  Why culture grows slowly—but matters tremendously 
•  Practical ways leaders can create healthier, more engaged teams 

Key Quote:
"We want people to be professionally engaged and emotionally healthy." — ~ Brian Schubring

If you'd like to learn more about Leadership Vision and how we help leaders and teams build healthier workplace cultures, visit LeadershipVisionConsulting.com. 

Transcript

A Question That Hits A Nerve

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Can you optimize people without treating them like machines? Hello everyone and welcome to the Leadership Vision Podcast. My name is Nathan Freeberg, and in this episode, we wrestle with what it really means to help people reach their full potential at work. Is the goal simply better performance, or is it creating organizations where both people and the business can thrive? Join Linda Brian and myself as we explore the tension between productivity, well-being, and what healthy leadership really looks like. Now, this question came up because Brian and Linda were asked if their goal is just to optimize people, and that really stuck in a negative way with Brian and Linda. So we're gonna jump into this conversation as we're sort of in the middle or at the beginning of trying to even identify what it was that caused them to bristle so much. Enjoy.

Can People And Business Win

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Meaning, are we trying to serve the organization at the expense of people's talent, at the expense of their time? And my answer was yes, we are trying to maximize the potential of people for the benefit of the organization because we want to force the question: are you as an individual happy with where you're at? And if you're happy with where you're at and you believe in what the organization is doing, then yes, we do hope that you find meaning and significance in the work that you're doing for the benefit of the organization. And my reply was we have several clients that would be great contestants for a model of how that should be done, where people like going to work. They like being a part of what the cause is or what type of work that they're actually doing. They feel like they're intellectually and emotionally engaged, they like their team members, and yes, then we are helping that individual maximize their potential for the benefit of the organization and for the benefit of themselves. And I don't know why both can't be true.

Why The Word Optimize Feels Wrong

SPEAKER_02 2:03

I appreciate the gift of questions because I think there are words within questions that get our attention and cause us to, you know, intuit what someone might actually mean by that. And words matter, words especially matter to us. And so when I heard the word optimize and people, there was something in those two words that I bristled at. And and why I bristled was it it felt like uh if we're gonna treat people like a machine, then yeah, then yes, then let's optimize them, let's get the most out of them, let's you know, make them work nights and weekends and whatever else. And for me, it was a it was a different approach of we're not necessarily trying to optimize people, we're trying to kind of bolster the living organism that that is an organization and how people can better contribute to it and not just become mechanistic.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Why do you think you bristled so much at the word optimize? I mean, it's sort of that word is inherently value neutral. Yeah. Do you do you associate it with something? You talk about machines, but I was also thinking like, well, optimize. It could be like how do you optimize your sleep so you're a better functioning human or whatever. Like I'm I'm curious why you went there.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

Why I went there was uh it's on the backs of people that companies either grow or fail or plateau. And and I think when we uh yeah, just just optimizing a the the soul of a leader is I don't know, it's just uh just got my attention a little bit. Because it's it's way more than that.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yeah. Does optimizing have a I I I feel like the the Terminator uses the word optimize as he's describing his the way he functions or whatever. So does it have that negative we only can optimize machines connotation? And then when you hear it applied to people, you sort of automatically think like how do we how do we squeeze even more out of this already semi-dry sponge? And that's what optimization means.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Right. But I think if you're a leader and you look someone in the eyes and say, I intend to optimize you, that feels a little bit different. I think how you would describe that is or some things that Brian was saying, and that is how do you create a kind of belonging? How do you create a significance? How do you get the most out of who you are and how you show up? And how do we tap into some of those capacities that you didn't even know existed? I think optimization, it actually feels limiting to me. Maybe it's a word that feels limiting to me, even though you're you're trying to make it better. Maybe I like the word maximize a little bit better, but maybe it's a dignity issue. I don't know. You had some you had some strong thoughts, Brian.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

I still do. Are you both anti-word the word optimize?

SPEAKER_00 5:16

No, because I think optimize is a synonym to maximize or a synonym to perform or something where I actually think that most leaders that we work with right now simply want their people to be engaged. Optimize is like whipped cream. I mean, it's like the sugary sweet result of something different. I don't think that there are many people right now that are working with teams that are or working with individuals on teams that are doing their best performance and and the the company wants to optimize them even more. I think that's a rarity. I think people want to be in places in life where they experience that euphoria that that comes with feeling that their their potential and their talent is being used and shown to the world. I think that when people um think about some large organizations and how there are executives that are trying to optimize greatest performance for shareholder value, that to me is where some of the tension is. Then when we step in, it is clear I want our work to have the result of people feeling that they have something in them that can be optimized and that they do have a chance to experience that sense of joy and euphoria that their talent is being tapped. I think a lot of team tension that happens today is when leaders don't expect people to perform in a way that brings them joy and satisfaction, or team members feeling like their team does not provide the place where they themselves can be seen and known and understood. I think that part of the optimization question is much more of an emotional and relational answer than it is about performance.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

They go hand in hand.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Okay, they go hand in hand.

The Definition And The Hidden Tradeoffs

SPEAKER_01 7:08

So I'm pushing on this a little bit because so I just looked at the definition of optimize is to make something as effec to make something as effective, functional, or beneficial as possible under a given set of conditions. And so when I hear you pushing back on this word, it sounds like it's because you've seen it used under this given set of conditions that are not focused on the person, they're focused on something else and they're almost at the expense of the person. Correct. Yes, that's um Yep, that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Yes, Nathan, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

And well, yeah, because I'm like, optimize sounds great. I want to optimize, I want to become the best of the best that I can be. But when you're you know optimizing for one condition, it's at the expense of others. Like if you want to be the most effective employee, you wouldn't sleep. You wouldn't go home to your family, right? It's like what we're trying to do, it seems like, is be an optimized person and work is one part of that, correct? Like, is that what we're maybe more talking about or more bristling at? You were bristling at?

SPEAKER_00 8:17

We want people to be professionally engaged and emotionally healthy. That's what we want. When you read the definition, Nathan, I thought of organizations that we're associated with that have very poor environments and are asking people and are still trying to optimize performance. That results in 60 or 70 hour work weeks, it results in eroding health, and it results in people feeling more and more like they're being used for something greater. That's the part that we are bristling against. Um, we also know that there are other organizations that we're involved in that have the opposite impact. They are doing the best that they can to create environments where people can be free to do the best work that they possibly can while having a healthy emotional and physical life while being able to spend time um with their families on the

Real Company Examples Of Healthy Limits

SPEAKER_00 9:18

weekend. We happen to be doing this podcast on July 2nd. So it's it's July 4th week. Uh, there's one client where uh that we're working with, we just started working with them this week, and every one of the people are at home this week because the organization said it is the 4th of July week, everyone gets to work from home. Um, so this idea of you know, we expect you to do your best while you're at at home, but also understand that you have family obligations, you want to take a vacation, you want to take a long weekend, all that's okay. But the office is not gonna be open, work from home. That mentality of a CEO saying, We believe in doing good work, we trust you to do good work, and as a benefit, you can stay at home this week and don't bother coming downtown. So that idea I think is an example of an executive leader taking her high expectations and not stepping away from them, but saying to optimize our performance, to be the best human that we can be, take this week from home and have fun taking vacation and going away for the weekend with your family.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

It's interesting. There's a uh a company I know of who a few years ago instituted a wellness week. A bunch of companies have done this. You know, we believe it's important that people have a week away where the whole company is away. So, unlike when you take a vacation, people are still like, hey, I'm sorry, I know you're on vacation, but I want to check in. So everyone shuts down, resets, it's really important for mental health, blah, blah, blah. Well, that one company is not doing as well, and so they took that week away. They're like, Nope, we gotta, we gotta work hard. And I I I read that and I heard about that, and I was like, can wellness and taking care of people only come if the business is doing well? Or that's essentially what they're saying. Like, if the business isn't doing well, then you as a human no longer get those perks. And and so I say that to just say, is it possible, or do you have examples of companies where they've optimized the individual, the work-life balance, the time away, and the bottom line, and like they've somehow been able to maintain that? Or is it constantly, if you're watching on YouTube, you can see this if you're just listening, you can't see my hands going teeter-totter style up and down. It's the business is well, but the people are hurting. Oh, okay, the business is well, now we can take care of the people. Oh, but now the business is does that make sense? Like, do you have examples of that?

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Does that make sense, Nathan? And when you said that example, the first thing I thought of was the misdirected attention of the executives to take that week away. Oh, I know, right? Oh, when you have performance measures that are misaligned, it's easy to take away something that's actually providing a benefit. Right. Um, and it's an easy target. I'm not familiar with the company you're referring to. I've heard about it, and we don't know the decision tree that went into giving that that week, but it's easy to take things back when your focus on metrics that are aligned with how many times how many hours you spend at work will will equal good results, to which I would disagree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

But do you have examples of companies you've worked with or well, everyone does well when there is a healthy double bottom line where people are cared for and you're profitable, right? The companies that I'm thinking

The Double Bottom Line And Time Horizons

SPEAKER_02 12:41

of, they're the ones that said, okay, I know it's tight. We need you all to be billable. And at the same time, don't forget that you have these hours to volunteer. So go give back in the neighborhood. I mean, that's that's the part of Minneapolis-St. Paul that I'm proud of of being here. But the all right, there's still a value there. And guess what happened? People, when they're giving back and they're helping their communities, there is something that changes in them and and reminds them that they're not just being used, they're not just a cog in the wheel, they're not just a part in the machine, but they are a human contributor. And so we've seen we've seen organizations where even it's like, yep, it's tight, and let's still do this, and still take your PTO, still um still invest in yourself.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

When you're optimizing for the double bottom line, you're also recognizing that each of those lines has a different scale and scope to how it's being measured. The productivity bottom line that could be measured by quarterly goals, and which are more subjective, and you can know whether you met them or not. So that's like a three-month or a month by month or week by week measure that teams can easily understand or that they can clearly understand if they're making it or not. The other bottom line, when you're talking about people and culture and relationships and emotions, that's more subjective. It certainly is not measured week by week. And most of the organizational and cultural change that we've seen, it doesn't happen within three or six months. It's in it's something intentional that happens and grows and evolves where some things are eroding while our things are sprouting, and that may take seasons for adjustments to actually be noticed. We have a client right now where the where we've been working with them for multiple years. And this is an example of one of the bottom lines, the human bottom line. And one of the members said that they've been aware that this shift in culture has been happening for four years. And so when this individual said that out loud in one of the team sessions, it was an awakening for me that the the slow growth and slow maturation of what it takes for a culture to change is is like the vines growing in a vineyard. It's incremental change that happens year over year, and all of a sudden you see these big, robust vines that are there, but you don't necessarily see that growth week by week or month by month. It's a different type of measure. When there's an emergency and you feel like something needs to change, it's easy to take away the one thing that cannot be easily or quickly measured as part of the problem because you don't have the data to back it up. However, that's the most important one because that bottom line is the soil within which those vines are planted.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

Yeah. It's really good. As you're talking, I'm thinking about the other organizations that have to roll things back because they want to stay open.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Yeah, well, the crowd's gonna go next.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

As Brian, as you're talking, I'm thinking about just the companies that have to roll back some of the benefits or perks because they're trying to stay open or they're trying to stay afloat. And I think that there are times where uh the things that that we do, it's like, well, now I don't have this and no one cares about me. And it's and it's remembering there's a larger narrative, and there's seasons of abundance, and there's seasons of like, all right, this was when we're bootstrapping it, and this is when we receive some of the scarcity, but still have an abundant mindset. And uh and so once again, going back to the word optimization, how you know, maybe maybe the larger question is then do you really optimize humans or do you optimize the talent? With all the push and and the conversations that I've been a part of, a lot of people are saying, let's be more human, be more human. But has anyone actually defined that or talked about that? And what does it mean to be a living, adapting, pivoting kind of organism? And yeah, so there's a lot, there's a lot to wrestle

Practical Guidance For Leaders Under Pressure

SPEAKER_02 17:06

with.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

So to wrap to wrap this up, then we've kind of done a little semantics, a little, what does this word mean? What does that word mean? Let's let's use optimize here in the most positive, generative, best way we can think of. What would you say to a leader who is trying to optimize their people in the way that we use the word? Like, how would you encourage someone when they're like, I'm just up against it with you know the machine of the corporation? What would you say to close out here today as a way to encourage someone to just maybe take one step into that, what would you say, optimizing talent or whatever?

SPEAKER_00 17:44

I would lean into what Linda said. I would encourage leaders and team leaders, managers to think about that double bottom line. How is it that we can create environments that does pay attention to the expectations of strategies and the outcomes of our professional performance while maintaining an environment that has a nutrient-rich soil to maintain emotional well-being?

SPEAKER_02 18:10

And the only thing I would add is get really clear about expectations. And I think expectations and communicating about what's happening in the organization, when a leader can do that with their people, then then they know, oh, the we've raised the floor a bit, or we are we are trending in a new direction. And so this is what it means to be successful, this is what's expected out of you, and and how do we increase the health of both the bottom line and the investment in people?

SPEAKER_01 18:44

That's great. Brian Linda, thank you very much. Have a lovely Fourth of July weekend. And thank you, listeners, for listening to the Leadership Vision Podcast, our show helping you build positive team culture. Stay tuned for our new subtitle later. Uh, if you'd like to learn more about Leadership Vision, you can click the link in the show notes or visit us on the web at Leadership Vision Consulting.com. My name is Nathan Freeberg.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

I'm Linda Schobring.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

And I am Brian Schobring. And on behalf of our entire team, thanks for listening.