American POTUS: When Harry Truman Met Pablo Picasso featuring Matthew Algeo

The American POTUS podcast is a 501c3 non-profit show, supported by listener patriots like you.  To help us keep the program going, please join others around the nation by considering a tax-deductible donation.  You can make your contribution and see what exciting plans we have for new podcasts and other outreach programs, at AmericanPOTUS.org.  Thank You for your support and we hope you enjoy this episode. 

Transcript

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 0:02

Welcome to American potus. I'm your host, Alan Lowe. Thanks so much for joining us on this episode. I'm glad to welcome back Matthew Alga for his record breaking third appearance on American potus. As POTUS fans will know, Matthew currently serves as the host of Morning Edition on Kansas Public Radio and is an award-winning author of now eight books such as New York Secret Subway, the Underground Genius of Alfred Beach, and the Origins of Mass Transit, which is his latest book. We've in the past talked with him about his books. The President is a sick man, all about Grover Cleveland's secret surgery at Sea, and Harry Truman's excellent adventure, the true story of a great American road trip. Today, Matthew will paint another picture for us as we discuss his really fascinating book when Harry Met Pablo Truman, Picasso, and the Cold War Politics of Modern Art. Matthew, thanks for joining us again on American potus.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 0:54

Thank you for inviting me back, Alan. It's always a pleasure.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 0:58

Thank you. Really interesting book. Let's start with that genre of modern art. How is that defined, overall and how did Picasso play a really pivotal role in that genre's creation?

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 1:09

Yeah. Harry would've defined it as ham and eggs art. said if it, if it looked like you threw breakfast against the wall, that was modern art. I guess the most basic definition of modern art is non-representational art. Right. Really, from the Renaissance on Art had always depicted. realistically, as realistically as it could portray them in the correct light and in three dimensions. And then you get the impressionists, in the mid to late, 18 hundreds in the 19th century who begin to make things a little less strictly realistic. And this really evolves into contemporary art. As we understand it, which is truly non-representational. Now, Picasso, what he began to do, and he began as a representational artist. In fact, when you look at some of his, even as a child, he could draw amazing pictures and people think he drew like a five-year-old. No, he, he really was a good artist. But what he did is he kind of picked up on what the impressionists were doing and put his own twist on it. And he tried to represent an object from multiple perspectives. I think that was his first, um. in, modern art, in the, nonrepresentational art that he did. Of

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 2:29

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 2:48

And so you ended up with some of these really crazy. Pictures, you know, you might see the eyes on one side of the face and the mouth on the other side of the face, and he was really imagining things from multiple perspectives. So, I guess simply put modern art as we understand it today is, non-literal art, non-representational art. It's something, that evokes an idea rather than showing us directly what artist intended to portray.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 3:16

Yeah, I think it's absolutely, fascinating. I've lived in DC for many years, worked at the National Archives, and I had the luxury of going out at lunch and going over to the National Gallery, and you go into the first section, you'd have the more traditional art and really amazing works, then go over into the other wing and you were into the modern art section, and at first, I'd feel disoriented, but it was really a good feeling of

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 3:35

Right.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 3:35

Trying, trying to see that different perspective.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 3:37

Think people understand. You know, I talk about, there was a very famous show in the early 19 hundreds in New York, the Armory Show, which was one of the first moderate art exhibits. I forget the exact date. I think it was around 1907, and how revolutionary this was. We've adapted to it, we've adjusted to it. Those of us who I guess appreciate more traditional art,

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 3:58

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 3:59

but it was revolutionary at the time. I mean, it really kind of freaked people out

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 4:03

Yeah. Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 4:04

it, it stirred up a lot of emotion in people and it wasn't just. the picture itself, but how different it was from everything that had preceded it. And I think it's hard for us now at this distance of 120 to 150 years to really appreciate how groundbreaking it was, whether you like it or not.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 4:26

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 4:27

really different. And I think in some ways that was the point.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 4:31

You look at that turn of the century into the 19th, beginning of the 20th, amazing how in so many fields that was happening, you look in theater, you look, obviously in science, these revolutionary radical changes that are really upsetting the apple cart, uh, to put

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 4:44

exactly. When you keep this in the context of other changes that were going on,

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 4:50

mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 4:51

the industrial, the way transportation was changing, the way communications were changing and this,

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 4:58

Hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 4:59

of that, some people, I think found it all to be a little too

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 5:03

Yeah, the world turned upside down. Right. So, yeah. Very interesting. So let's talk about a couple of, controversial figures who didn't like modern art one bit, and that was Father Charles Coughlin and Congressman George Dondero, uh, LED attacks here in America on modern art. What did they believe was wrong on subversive about it, and how did they then create a connection between it and communism?

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 5:26

Right. So, and Dondero, both from Michigan, just a coincidence, I'm not saying anything negative about Michigan. But they viewed modern art as, fundamentally, I would say impure. Fundamentally, they considered it un-American. It was untraditional. It was certainly not conservative uh, both Kauflin and Dondero were very, very conservative. And so they saw this art as being somehow un-American because it wasn't traditional. It didn't adhere to the proper rules of perspective and shape. they somehow managed to connect this. In their minds with communism as being equally subversive. Modern art was subversive. Communism was subversive. Ergo modern art and communism are the same thing. It was a stretch to be sure. But I really think they saw modern art as undermining American values,

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 6:38

Hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 6:39

they saw. Communism is undermining American values. And so in modern art, they thought the communists were behind it, that somehow this was meant to Americans. It was a kind of warfare that the communists were launching against America polluting it with this nonrepresentational art. And of course, by now we're into the. Thirties and the forties and the fifties picasso, is the most famous modern artist in the world, and he also happens to be a communist.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 7:15

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 7:15

of played right into their hands, this idea that communism was somehow linked to modern art. So modern art had to be opposed as fervently as communism was opposed.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 7:27

Hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 7:27

The irony is that. Stalin probably hated modern art as much as Truman did. The people who were actually making the art generally had nothing to do with the Soviet Union or even communism in many cases. A lot of modern artists were hired during the Depression to do, work for the wPA so there were some American, modern artists at work too, who were very much not communists, but they all got put in the same in the same grouping by Dondero and Kauflin. Modern art was subversive. Ergo communist.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 8:02

So let's step away from modern art just for a minute. Harry Truman, as he grows up, as he is a young adult, what is his exposure to and appreciation for art in general?

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 8:13

His preference was for what we would call traditional representational art. Now, he grew up in and around, Kansas City, lived in Kansas City at a time when there really wasn't a. Major art museum in Kansas City at the time.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 8:31

Mm. Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 8:40

He might see in his textbooks, at the library in Kansas City. There was a small gallery. There that had some art in it. Harry liked to play the piano. He liked to play Chopin. That gives you an idea of Harry's taste in

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 8:55

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 8:56

That to Harry was the highest ideal of art was the music of the great composers. so he did not appreciate. art. He didn't like it. He was very, very vocal about his opposition to it. But the thing I love about was that he was able to separate his own feelings, his own taste from the political reality of the time. think art should be censored. Dondero and Kauflin wanted to censor art. Harry

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 9:35

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 9:35

Ridiculous. He thought the pictures were ridiculous. Well, I even pay attention to them. He didn't even think it was worth the attention Dondero and Kauflin gave this art. So Harry's taste was very traditional. And he didn't like it, but he didn't oppose it.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 9:50

He said, uh, at one point, I love the quote you had that modern art put him in the same frame of mind as a nightmare. I.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 9:57

Yeah, yeah. It, it reflected his personal distaste for this particular kind of art. He really did think it was kind of ridiculous. He was one of the people who would say a 5-year-old could draw this,

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 10:13

Hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 10:13

Which of course. I guess it's true five-year-olds draw pictures like that, but it's much harder to draw pictures like that when you're an adult, you know, to access that, that place that a lot of

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 10:26

Yes.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 10:27

artists were able to access. I don't think Harry appreciated it, quite that way, but Harry appreciated the political power.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 10:34

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 10:35

He didn't like the art, but he really saw it, I think as an important expression of American values that people here had the freedom to create whatever art they wanted to create, and the government should not interfere with it.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 10:44

So in 1958, Harry and Bess take a trip with Sam and Dorothy Rosenman to Europe. Who, who were Sam and Dorothy to them.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 10:54

Sam Rosenman had this fascinating career. He was the, uh, white House Council. He joined the staff of governor. Roosevelt in New York. In fact, he was a speech writer for Franklin Roosevelt when he was governor of New York. And then when Roosevelt ran for president, he joined the campaign. He was a speech writer for the Roosevelt campaign in 32. He was a lawyer by trade. Roosevelt became president in 1933. Rosenman was appointed White House counsel, so he served as White House counsel,

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 11:32

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 11:32

He was also a speech writer. He is credited sometimes with coining the phrase The New Deal. That was his claim to fame. In fact, it was the. the first paragraph of his obituary of the New York Times mentioned that, which is a shame because he had an amazing career.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 11:48

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 11:48

son of Jewish immigrants, they grew up in San Antonio. They first settled in San Antonio and moved to New York, and he was a brilliant, one of these guys, you know, goes to Columbia at 17. Uh. had a brilliant mind and he joined the Roosevelt staff. And then when Roosevelt died, he stayed on as Harry Truman's, white House Council. so Truman and Rosenman actually became very close, especially after Truman left the White House. It's really interesting to read some of the interviews that Sam Rosenman did where he talks about the difference between FDR. And Truman, he talks about on trips with FDR and even casual like a picnic or even going out on a boat ride. And how with FDR, you never forgot he was president. could be casual and informal, but he had that air about him. But with Harry Truman, it was different he said. You know, and I'm, I'm paraphrasing here, but Truman was more like one of the guys, right? He could play poker and, and he liked a little whiskey and so I think they developed a much closer personal relationship for sure. Truman and Roseman than Roseman had hack with FDR their wives became, very good friends too. Dorothy Rosenman, who herself was quite accomplished, worked in the field of housing. For many years, housing shortages were acute during World War ii, and so she worked on that and Dorothy and Bess became, good friends and so it was really nice, I think for the Trumans after they left the White House to have these. friends that they could, spend time with, they enjoyed spending time together. So the Rosen men's, I believe what the Rosen Men's proposed this trip to Europe in the summer of 58. And, Harry, I think he was. Always a little reluctant to go, especially, you know, after the trip they took on the road in 53, the excellent adventure I write about. He, you know, said we couldn't escape the glare of the White House, but I think he thought maybe in Europe it would be a little easier to go And so, they agreed to go at the Rosans. And so Sam and Dorothy and Harry and Bess, as two couples. Took a cruise ship across the Atlantic and spent about a month touring Europe together, and I think it was really an enjoyable time for Truman and, I think one of the last long trips, pleasure trips that he ever took.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 14:18

By that point, did they have secret service protection?

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 14:20

They did not, they

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 14:21

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 14:22

uh, with no still no security. 58 was actually the year that Congress finally passed the pension bill so Truman could get a pension, which

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 14:32

Yeah,

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 14:32

one of the reasons that they decided to splurge on this just pretty expensive trip in 1958.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 14:39

sure.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 14:39

I think the tickets were three or $400, which was a lot of money in 58. but the, presidential pension bill. It was passed and signed into law by Eisenhower, I believe that summer. So they knew that was coming. They were gonna be guaranteed $25,000 a year.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 14:57

Well.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 14:58

still no, protection, no security. In Europe. I think it was a little like it was in the US when he took trips where when the local jonar found out that Harry Truman was there, they would freak out and go. Have a guy sit outside the hotel all night.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 15:13

Right.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 15:13

but Truman enjoyed traveling. Unencumbered by security and he really didn't have any problems at all in Europe. He was always surprised how positively people seemed to greet him. in Europe too, I think a lot of people did still see him as a liberator, and he was. Largely greeted with, with great enthusiasm. But no, they traveled, they had a driver, for part of the trip. Uh,

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 15:37

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 15:37

a car and a driver. But Harry also did some driving. Of course, he loved to drive.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 15:43

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 15:43

it was a really cool trip. They went to Genoa, of course, they went, into France. They visited, uh, Herculaneum, the ruins there near Rome. It was really a nice trip. I.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 15:54

Yeah, just in Herculean last year, as a matter of fact. Amazing. Uh, to see that.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 15:59

It's so, uh, you know, I guess Pompe, it's all the publicity, but Herculaneum, there's just something so, fascinating. It's almost kind of chilling, walking around what used to be this incredible city and just frozen in time.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 16:13

It's really, very touching, and very profound in many ways. Uh, so another name that comes into this story is Alfred Barr.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 16:20

Yeah.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 16:21

who, who was he and why did he work to bring together a Picasso and Truman?

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 16:25

Alfred Barr was the founding director of the Museum of Modern Art MoMA in New York.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 16:31

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 16:31

he was one of Picasso's great benefactors in the us. Alfred Barr was really one of the key figures in the development of modern art, really art in America in the 20th century. So he was the founding director of MoMA. he was. Acutely aware of the attacks that were taking place on modern art at the time, particularly by Congressman Dondero,

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 16:56

Mm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 16:56

earlier.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 16:57

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 16:59

He knew that modern art had an image problem.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 17:04

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 17:04

It did have this image of something that was. If not un-American, kind of out of the reach of middle America. I would say

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 17:18

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 17:18

something that was distinct and separate from the rest of America. And when he found out that Truman going to France, Alfred Barr hatched this idea

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 17:33

Hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 17:34

have Harry Truman. Uh, Pablo Picasso to spend time with Picasso, and he saw this, I think in two ways. The micro was just to give Harry Truman a chance to see this artist and see his work and maybe get Harry to reconsider his position on modern art. The macro was. Symbolic importance of

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 18:05

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 18:06

well known to be not a fan of modern art and Picasso, the paragon of modern art in mid 20th century America. For them to come together, them to shake hands, for them to spend time together. There was a really, I think, a symbolic, importance in that, that Alfred Barr perceived. And so he was eager to set up this meeting between Truman and Picasso. Picasso didn't like visitors. He didn't like guests, he didn't like to be bothered. Jacqueline Rooke was his, uh. Girlfriend as part partner at the time. had not yet married, which was its own stumbling block to arranging this. But, Alfred Barr had. Really, so much goodwill, some capital that he had had accumulated with Picasso. first major Picasso retrospective in the United States was at the Museum of Modern Art. Alfred Barr arranged it. Alfred Barr really introduced America to Picasso. So he really called in a favor with Picasso and said, you really should the time to meet the president and, and spend some time with him. And

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 19:25

Hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 19:25

agreed to do it. uh, he really kind of spr it on Harry at the last minute. And what he did is the Rosen mens who accompanied the Truman's. They enjoyed modern art and Sam Rosenman, to his credit, he worked hard to understand modern art and to appreciate modern art. So the Rosen Mins did wanna meet Picasso. really was the Rosen mens, I think, who convinced Harry and Bess, was also reluctant to go ahead and spend a day with Picasso. I mean, these are two really famous guys in 1958. These are two. Titans of the 20th century, I guess. so an opportunity to spend time with Pablo Picasso was something that didn't come along every day. And I think

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 20:10

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 20:23

things maybe he didn't like, like modern art, but he was curious about how it was made and, and he was curious why people appreciated it. And he was curious about Picasso, I think personally. And so he agreed to. To do this meeting., And so they stayed at, a wonderful, hotel uh, the south of France. It's now called Chateau San Michelle. My wife and I were able to spend two tax deductible nights there. Uh, for purposes of research,

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 20:54

Right.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 20:54

Expensive, but they stayed there, which is about a 20 minute drive, from, Valerie, which is where, Picasso had a studio and they also went to, Picasso's home and had lunch with him. And so this trip was arranged by Alfred Barr get Harry to like art, and for the public relations of seeing Picasso and Truman together.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 21:15

I see that's June 11th, 1958. That's, that's the big day. They tour the house, they tour the grounds. They have lunch. Uh, interestingly, after that, Picasso hopped in the car with them to tour other locales. What did he show them?

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 21:29

gave them a tour. Uh, I, it's worth mentioning, at the beginning of the day at breakfast, the Rosen Mens and the Trumans had breakfast, and then Harry had to step inside for something and that was when Bess suggested maybe we should cancel. She wasn't sure.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 21:43

Hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 21:43

Harry would Harry behave? And so when Harry came back out, they suggested, they said, do you still wanna do this? And Harry said, of course I wanna do it. It's Pablo Picasso, So he, I think, he wanted to meet this person. You know, again, one of the most famous people. So, uh. was a studio, actually Madora was the name of the studio in Valerie, that Picasso, did a lot of his ceramic work and made tiles. Uh, he would do limited runs of tiles. So it was kind of like a print. You know, you weren't getting an original Picasso. He would design the original, they would make reproductions. Picasso thought everybody should be able to have a Picasso. I mean, he was a very good businessman. So he's like, we can make $5 Picassos. So that's kind of what they did at this, ceramic studio in Valerie. Then that was going to be the extent of it basically. But then Picasso got in their car and said, come on, let's go. And so they went to Chateau, Grimaldi and Antibe, which is now, the Picasso Museum in Antibe. And this was a place where Picasso had been allowed to have a studio. Kept a space for Picasso whenever he was in town. He loved to hang out in Antibe. He lived in a couple different places in the south of France, and so he had a lot of work there and a lot of works in progress. And there's very cool pictures of them kind of out on the patio of, Chateau of Grimaldi, which now you can go see., It's kind of cool. I. You could see where they were standing right out on this

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 23:08

Hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 23:09

And, Truman and, Picasso really seemed to like each other. They really seemed to get along. I think there were a couple of things that Truman appreciated about One was that, Picasso was very curious. Like Truman. I think that they had in common. I also think Picasso, didn't care what people thought about him.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 23:35

Hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 23:36

Picasso took a lot of flack in his career.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 23:39

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 23:39

critics, um. critics didn't like him. Some critics despised him, and I think Truman admired that in Picasso, that he didn't really care what people thought, that he was going to do his own thing. He was gonna be his own man. And they were both self-made men, if that term,

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 23:54

I see.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 23:55

You know, that term was current at the time that they both had come from poor backgrounds, undeniably poor backgrounds, to become leading figures of the 20th century. I mean. That's something, you know, few people could share that,

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 24:07

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 24:08

That attribute at the time. And so, they go to Grimaldi, they spend time there. Picasso tells, the Rosen mens, uh, and the Trumans that they can take one of the ceramic dishes. They had ceramic plates there. And, Dorothy Rosenman took a kind of a. Plain, a simple one. Beth Truman took a crazy one with, I forget what it is. It's a crazy picture with the centar, you know, and the eyes were over here and the feet are over here. Rosenman said to Bess, like, why did you take that one? And Beth said, well, if you're gonna have a Picasso, you might as well have a Picasso. So she took one of the crazy ones. And the cool thing is, you'll appreciate this. I actually got in touch with. Clifton Truman Daniel, who

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 24:52

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 24:53

of Harry and Bess, and a great guy, and he's been very helpful to me in all this. And I said, do you have any idea whatever happened to that? And he emailed back a picture of it in about five minutes and said, it's on the wall. They still got it. It's, it's still in the family, which I thought was very cool. And the Rosen Mins two, is still in the family. And so they both, they both kept those souvenirs. It was also cool that. was able to get in touch with and Dorothy's grandchildren, and they actually had slides. Sam was a photographer. He loved photography. He was an amateur photographer, and he had taken slides on this trip and.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 25:32

Hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 25:33

They were still in the family and they had never been published, or nobody had ever even seen them outside the family. so, they were very, very gracious and kind and had the slides scanned. And so those are, some of the images in the book

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 25:48

Wow.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 25:48

The Rose mens and the Trumans with Picasso. These images had never been seen before. It's one of those things when you're researching. You know, you're researching the book, you never know what you're gonna come up with, and 99% of the time it's, you don't come up. You know, you go in with high hopes.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 26:06

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 26:06

But it was very cool. So yeah, that was neat. So there's something about it that's both, I guess. Kind of profound and also kind of tender. These are all people approaching late middle age. I think, well, Truman and Picasso, they actually died I think less than two years apart, 72 and 74. So they still had life ahead of them, but they both knew that the prime of their life had passed them. And I think there was something in that, that. Attracted each of them to the.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 26:41

Well, you talked about besting, the, the Picasso. Picasso, but did she have a good time overall? Did you get the impression she liked Picasso?

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 26:49

I think Harry liked Picasso more than Bes, liked

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 26:52

Okay. Right.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 26:53

think bes, I know for a fact be, did not appreciate the fact that he and Jacqueline Ro were living together without the benefit of matrimony.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 27:01

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 27:02

but this was an obstacle that was overcome. I think, Bess could. In a way, I think be a little more judgmental than Harry. And I think, she didn't quite have the open mind about it that Harry did,

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 27:14

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 27:15

Bess had a good time on the trip really got some stories out of it. And, I really think they enjoyed the day overall. I don't think Bess held any grudges against Picasso for his relationship with Jacqueline at the time. And in defense, Jacqueline. Helped make Picasso very productive. Those last, 15, 20 years of his life. And he really created some amazing art by basically becoming the gatekeeper and keeping all the distractions to a minimum,

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 27:48

I see.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 27:49

again, it was really unusual that they would open their house up to guests at the time. If it hadn't been, for Alfred Barr arranging it, it never would've happened.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 27:59

You talked about Truman's great curiosity to meet Picasso more on the micro level. Do you think he had that macro level you were talking about in mind too, that understanding that modern art was under attack and this would be seen as, um, it's kind of a salvo in that battle.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 28:16

Truman knew politics and he

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 28:17

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 28:18

The optics of.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 28:20

Yes.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 28:20

him meeting with, with Picasso? No doubt about it.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 28:23

Right.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 28:24

I think in some ways you could say the, Truman meeting with Picasso was a rebuke of George Dondero, the congressman from Michigan, who hated modern art. I, I really do think that. Truman knew

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 28:35

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 28:53

That although he didn't like modern art, there's no reason to censor modern art. And I think he saw meeting Picasso as an expression of that sort of an overt expression of support for the idea of freedom of expression. I think he

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 29:08

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 29:09

Not to promote modern art, but to promote freedom of expression.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 29:13

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 29:14

very, very important to him. And again, a, a

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 29:16

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 29:17

To Truman he didn't think just 'cause you didn't like something, doesn't mean you should

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 29:23

Right, what about the press and the public did they, pay attention to this meeting? How did they cover it? How did they see it?

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 29:28

did. They did. Unfortunately, there was a lot of other news

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 29:32

Hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 29:32

on at the time., And France was involved in, Algeria., Dugal was making a comeback.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 29:39

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 29:40

international headlines at the time. So the story itself kind of got buried at the time. I think it was really when they came back to the US and Best gave some interviews, uh, talking about the meeting that it became more publicly known. And of course the photograph of Truman and Picasso, I'm not sure when that was released, but kind of became an iconic image, in. Truman's life, I think, it's not quite up there with Nixon and Elvis, but it's still pretty cool to see Harry Truman in the doorway there shaking hands with Pablo Picasso. You just wouldn't expect these two people's lives to intersect that way.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 30:20

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 30:20

it was a big deal. But it wasn't as big a deal, I think as a lot of people thought it would be because, and this is a good thing, I think the pendulum had begun to swing a little bit. Toward modern art, away from the far right anti-modern, uh, viewpoint. Then you'll see, of course, by the time Kennedy gets sworn in less than three years later, they're inviting modern artists to the White House, and Jacqueline Kennedy became an advocate for modern art. So, the sixties are just around the corner, course. Nobody in 58 knows what's gonna happen in the next decade. But as it turned out, really, Truman meeting Picasso was kind of the end of the period of opposing modern art. And then you have the sixties and then you see modern art kind of going into the mainstream. And by the end of the sixties you got Peter Max posters on everybody's room. I mean, it was a changing time.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 31:16

Hmm, I recall you mentioned dugal. There was some doubt they would even make it into France, right? Because of the turmoil. Right.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 31:23

Right. And I also thought it was interesting that if. Dugal had been the reason they'd had to cancel the trip. What Harry would've thought about that, 'cause he did not like Dugal. He hated, he hated de gall. uh, the trip was up in the air, really until the last week or so. It was a time of really, a lot of turmoil, in, and North Africa especially. And Truman was very attuned to, you know, if I go there, how will that be interpreted as supporting de Gall if I don't go? Is it gonna be interpreted one way? I mean, he was very sensitive, again, to the perception that that would have. but he also, he really wanted to do the trip.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 32:05

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 32:06

The, one of the funnest parts for Truman was doing the cruises, across the Atlantic.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 32:12

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 32:12

Uh, I was able to find some people who were on the boat with them, which was cool. Also, it was

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 32:18

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 32:19

To hear stories. I always loved to hear the little anecdotes that people have Encountering Truman and there was, a woman who had just had a baby. They would actually, on the ships, if there was space available, they would use them to send troops. A lot of the big shipping companies, a lot of the big ships had been built with support from the US government under the proviso that if there's ever a war, we're gonna take over the ship. And so they had agreements with the Pentagon at the time that if somebody needed to go to Europe or come back from Europe, that if there was space available, they, would go on the ship. And there was a family, I think a family returning from who came on the ship. Back with the Trumans and the mother had a small child, a baby that Harry would hold for her on her walks. And

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 33:07

Wow.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 33:08

To walk, you know, so he would go out and walk on the deck, every morning. and Random people would join in. And

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 33:14

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 33:14

are tons of stories like that. I mean, it's just impossible to imagine some of these things taking

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 33:22

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 33:22

today.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 33:23

I know you recreated part of this trip with your wife, and we talked about the same thing with Harry's excellent adventure. Um, what does that do in terms of your writing? How does that help you tell the story to go there in modern day and make those visits?

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 33:37

A couple ways. One is the more practical way, which is accessing local archives and local newspapers, that kind of thing. You know, they're great online. Newspaper archives now, but they're primarily English speaking. so I went to Genoa and to Rome and to Nice. And was able to find local newspapers that gave accounts of the Truman's passing through town, in Genoa the, I think the car stalled and Harry had to help them push it to, to. The clutch, remember, I don't even remember. You drive stick shift. What would you pop the clutch to get the car going again? boy, I guess that's something that. People won't be doing ever again. Uh, and in Genoa. They went to the top of the tallest building which I think was the tallest building, in Italy at the time, maybe western Europe. It was only like 20 stories or something. But there was a wedding reception taking place in the, uh, observation deck up there. And so Harry crashes the wedding and I got pictures of Harry and the bride. That they had

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 34:40

Yeah,

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 34:41

And, I had a young woman helping me as an interpreter, on the trip and she was reading the stories about Truman and she said, there was a saying in Italy, he's as good as bread. And, she thought Harry Truman, they would say he's as good as bread.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 34:57

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 34:58

Was like the highest compliment you could pay somebody. Red was the most important thing. And so there were a lot of these incidents similar to what happened when he did the road trip in the US in 53. And so to answer your question, part of it is that just seeing the basic archives and the other is to see the architecture in the space he was in.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 35:16

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 35:16

You know, I went to the Picasso museum now, which was Chateau Grimaldi. And, the director there was. So cool and showed me around and his favorite Picassos and everything, which is one of the perks that you do it for too. You know, so you could kind of be the VIP behind the scenes to go out on the patio and see where he was and you find you get a better appreciation for where they've. the car and this is how they moved around the building. This is how they moved around the space. And I think that's helpful too, just when you're narrating the day to day, like how they got here, where they went, where they would've been crossing paths with people, that sort of thing. So

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 35:52

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 35:52

A practical, and then there's also the philosophical benefit of standing in that exact same place., I'm walking around. Herculaneum with the little picture of Harry everywhere trying to find where was this, where was this? Because there's a picture of him at Herculaneum and I finally found it and I love it because it was in the courtyard where there was this huge statue of a fat drunk guy urinating, right? So it's like, wonder what best thought what she saw that. Because Harry loved it. I know Harry must have loved it. So it's that kind of thing it's neat, but I think it's also productive,

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 36:26

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 36:27

You know, to go where they went.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 36:29

Yeah. They result in amazing books. And I'll just say, Matthew, if you need someone to carry your bags next time on one of these trips, you know where to call.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 36:36

if you, if you do,

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 36:38

oh.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 36:38

French or Italian, I could have used you,

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 36:42

Not yet, but I'm determined to learn Italian. We love Italy, so that's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. Yes. So,

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 36:48

was interesting because they drove from, uh, Italy into France and Valerie, was the interpreter I hired who's fantastic. And I said, well, I guess the closer you get to the border between Italy and France, that everybody must be bilingual.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 37:04

mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 37:04

And she said, no, actually.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 37:07

Interesting.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 37:07

to the border, the more fixed people get in claiming I'm Italian or I'm French, and so

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 37:15

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 37:15

to speak the other side's language. It was just little things like that that had never occurred to me And when you hear something like that, I wonder, I was like, I wonder if anybody told Harry that? 'cause Harry would've thought that was interesting.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 37:26

Yeah. Really cool, really interesting. So Matthew, thanks again for joining us American potus. What are you working on right now?

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 37:33

You know, my wife retired from the Foreign Service last summer and we moved to Lawrence, Kansas. And as you mentioned, I'm working at Kansas Public Radio right now there are just so many, stories I wanna do for the radio here. I've, been concentrating on that. I did a story a couple weeks ago. There's a town in Kansas, council Grove, Kansas. It is the smallest town in the US with a daily newspaper

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 37:58

Hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 37:58

2200. And they have a daily newspaper, three women putting it together. And I did a story. I mean, Pittsburgh doesn't have a daily newspaper anymore.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 38:06

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 38:07

Council Grove Kansas still has one. So it's stories like that. I just did another piece that's gonna be on NPR. About a, uh, silk making commune that was founded by a French aristocrat here in the 1870s where there was a big silk, boom, a silk bubble. Everybody thought silk was gonna be the next great thing, but

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 38:26

Mm-hmm.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 38:27

silk did not survive, because there were no tariffs on imported silk.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 38:32

Interesting.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 38:33

Yeah, so American silk makers of the 19th century didn't have enough lobbying power to get the terrorists on Asian silk. And so it's

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 38:41

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 38:42

How it, those things which seem so remote. But actually today you could make similar

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 38:48

Yeah.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 38:49

stories.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 38:50

Yeah, you sound a lot like Harry Truman. You're curious about a lot of things.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 38:54

Yeah. What is it? Jack of all trades, master of none. Yeah.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 38:57

no, no, I doubt that very seriously, sir. Well, thank you again. Always amazing to have you on American Pot. Thank you so much.

matthew_1_02-19-2026_143303 39:04

you Alan. It's always a pleasure to be with you.

alan-lowe_1_02-19-2026_153303 39:07

And thank you all for tuning in. Make sure you check out all of our American POTUS episodes as well as the American flotus Podcast we produce in partnership with our friends at the First Ladies Association for Research and Education or Flair. And please send me your thoughts, comments, suggestions. You can contact me at American potus host@gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you. Thanks so much, and I'll see you next time on American potus.