American POTUS: In the Arena with Theodore Roosevelt featuring David Brown

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Transcript

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 0:07

​Welcome to American POTUS. I'm your host, Alan Lowe. Thanks so much for joining us. I'm really pleased to welcome on this episode David Brown. is a professor at Elizabethtown College in Pennsylvania, and he's the author of several well-received books, such as A Hell of a Storm: The Battle for Kansas, The End of Compromise, and the Coming of the Civil War; The First Populist: The Defiant Life of Andrew Jackson; the book we'll discuss today, In the Arena: Theodore Roosevelt in War, Peace, and Revolution. David, thanks for joining us on American POTUS.

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 0:42

Good to be with you today, Alan

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 0:44

So enjoyed this book. Theodore Roosevelt's always one of my favorites. I know I'm not alone in that, but an endlessly fascinating man. You did a really terrific job telling us about an incredible life. Uh, let's go back to the beginning of that life, his childhood. he fought a number of maladies as a child. were those maladies, and what lasting impact, if any, do you think that had on his personality, his outlook on life?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 1:09

I, I suppose if readers and listeners, if they associate something from Roosevelt's childhood, it's his struggle with asthma. It was something that was, not unique to him. His other siblings had traces of it. He had, an older sister, they called her Bamie, and, her medical concerns were perhaps a little bit greater than his. She had, Pott's disease. But with Roosevelt, it's the notion here that his father, his mother were concerned and thought that physical culture could rectify his physical ailments. And so a gym was put up in the family house, not just for him, but for all the siblings. But it was the notion that he would, as his father told him, "You must build your body." And he took this philosophy and, it wasn't something that he ever set aside. When he went to Harvard, he boxed. He was a great, naturalist, enjoyed hiking, all through his life, including during his presidency, Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC, and it was an ideology or philosophy that was distilled in this notion of the strenuous life, which had various permutations to it. It could mean this is how I cured myself, this is how I strengthened myself when I was younger. But as an adult to also mean perhaps that in America, which is becoming increasingly industrialized, wealthier, gentrified, what will give us our fighting trim? And this is the notion of the strenuous life. Physical culture can aid the individual, but it could also aid and benefit the country

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 2:37

And part of that strenuous life was his experiences in the West. And so what led him to the West, and what impact do you think his experiences there had on his views of himself, but also of, of our growing nation?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 2:49

Uh, I think that he was drawn to the West initially, because it was this, quote-unquote, dying place. Dying in that the frontier was coming to an end, and transcontinental railroads were connecting the country. Gentlemen, um, Easterners much like Roosevelt, people like Henry Adams, from the Adams family, would go to the West. Some would hunt like Roosevelt. Others would want to experience, like they were anthropologists or ethnographers, to see something of the, the Native American culture before it, quote-unquote, "died out." Uh, but it was this notion of a last place, a last time, and, this is a time in which explorers are going around the world, in which, the North Pole, the South Pole, the Northwest Passage, all these things are being discovered or rediscovered. And Roosevelt's interested in taking his place in the sun there. I should mention that, upon the death of his first wife, he will go west to a ranch that he had in the Dakota territory to nurse his hurt, and he played really the role of a cowman, and a cowboy. He hunted, he engaged in, the cattle industry. Most of the men who worked with him-- for him, I should say, were impressed. They said that obviously he was a rich man, he was a gentleman, but he worked with us. And there was something about the physical culture, again, the strenuous life comes in, that comported with Roosevelt's ideal about America, what America could be, what it should remain. That is a place where, Americans had a place to go outside of cities to come into contact with nature. At a different time, transcendentalists like Emerson and Thoreau had discussed this idea. Roosevelt, who we don't typically associate with a transcendentalist, I think he shared that idea, obviously, though, in a much different way. The idea that nature could give us something, could give the country something of its vital essence, even in an age of industrialization and urbanization

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 4:48

You certainly see that later in his priorities as president

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 4:51

Very much so. You know, Roosevelt obviously has the reputation of being, our most important perhaps, environmental president, environmental-minded, preserving millions and millions of acres,, for purposes of recreation, for purposes of preserving natural beauty and species. There are some interesting contradictions there. Roosevelt was a tremendous hunter. But he was also a great, preservationist and seeing, the American bison, for example, as being symbolic of the nation's identity, perhaps in a somewhat different way, than how Benjamin Franklin looked upon the American turkey

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 5:28

It's such a fascinating life in so many ways, this dichotomy, as you said, the hunter and the conservationist at the same time. Uh, really everywhere I turn, uh, Theodore Roosevelt's more and more interesting. Uh, about, his pain after the death of his wife, Alice, uh, the same day his mother died. I mean, just a traumatic, traumatic experience, I'm sure, for Theodore. He remarries three years after the death of Alice. He m- he married Edith Carrow. what can you tell us about how they became a couple then, and how would you characterize that relationship over the years?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 6:04

Well, it's a fascinating relationship. As you know, they were friends in childhood. They were neighbors. Roosevelt had two sisters and a brother, and all were friendly with the Carroll family. Roosevelt's had, in good Victorian fashion, propriety, swore not to the death of his first wife that he would never marry again. He would always hold the memory of his first wife. But he does remarry, and he really has a second family. Several children, five children with his second wife, six children overall. He, of course, had, baby Alice with his first wife, Alice. The relationship with Edith Carow was, I think, a very strong relationship for both of them. She was a tremendous partner, not just a spouse, but tremendous partner. Her judgment on people was oftentimes superior to his. Many people have commented on that, contemporaries. And so she was, like his older sister Bamie, something of an informal advisor to him. She was a great judge of character. I think that his relationship with his second wife was the most important and vital relationship, of his life, with the possible exception of his relationship with his father. His father died when Roosevelt was an undergraduate at Harvard. He lionized the man, and would continually reference him and the lessons that he imparted upon him up until the time that Roosevelt died. So I would say that definitely his father, but also Edith were particularly important in his formative period, but also throughout the rest of his life

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 7:39

Yeah. you said that Edith was often a better judge of character. I also host, with the First Ladies Association for Research and Education podcast called American FLOTUS, which I encourage all of our listeners to listen to. And so often in that, you'll hear that the First Lady is a better judge of character, is kind of this gatekeeper understanding that this person is, uh, well-meaning and this person is not. So really, really interesting. So let's look at Roosevelt's service as, head of the Civil Service Commission and as you call it, the top cop in New York. What did those years tell you about Roosevelt's character?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 8:14

Well, he had a great capacity for work, even work that he didn't necessarily always enjoy doing. And, I think there's a convergence there with what he was doing as a cowboy or a cowhand. Some of that work was really hard, but he engaged in it. He saw it as something of a duty. What he did, he tended to always give his all towards it, to, to never cheat the moment. And so when I think of Roosevelt, working,, in civil service in Washington, back in New York as a head police official, I think of someone who thought it was his duty to do this. I think it was someone who never cheated the taxpayer out of a day's work. I think it was also somebody who was planning a political career. And so to move, for example, from New York to Washington and then back to New York again, and what he said when he was going back to New York, "I think it's good for me to touch base again with the electorate there." Even if he was taking a position that wasn't an electorate position, but he could see that he was wanting to involve himself in electoral politics. One of the actions that he did as a, uh, police commissioner, a police chief, was to try to end consumption of alcohol, sale and consumption on Sundays. And of course, this was chimerical. This was not going to happen. But what it suggests is the stubbornness of Roosevelt, that he was interested in this crusade. It also tells us something, because he couldn't pull it off, about his charisma and popularity. It did not really in the least damage his political career. Uh, and lots of people at the time thought that this was going to really end whatever possible future in politics he had. I think in both cases, when he was working in Washington, D.C. before the presidency and when he was working in New York, these are emblematic of aspirational career goals and his desire to ensure that his name was before the public repeatedly.

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 10:16

I know he, he never stopped, and I was reminded about hi- his kind of frenzy of activity. Uh, when I was a child, I grew up on a farm in Kentucky, I will tell you, a hard day at the museum can be a hard day, but it's nothing like putting up hay or tobacco. So perhaps he knew that, that strenuous life and

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 10:34

Yeah.

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 10:34

compare the two, right?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 10:36

grew tobacco?

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 10:37

Yes,

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 10:38

My, my family did too in southern Ohio

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 10:40

Oh, really? We're, we're in central Kentucky is where I grew up. Yeah.

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 10:43

Okay.

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 10:43

good. So yeah, we'll have to, we'll have to talk about burley tobacco. A really, great life, but a strenuous one, I will say. Uh, so getting back to Mr. Roosevelt, the war with Spain, he was Assistant Secretary of the Navy, and he resigned, and very famously resigned and became head of the Rough Riders, in Cuba. Why did he do that? Why did he take that very risky decision?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 11:07

It, it's a great question. All of his friends had that question as well. He was 40, didn't have to do this, didn't need to do this. His wife had just given birth to their final child, and she was not physically doing very well at all. I think it raises the question of, the impact of his father again. His father had paid, $300 to stay out of the Civil War draft. His father did a form of alternative service, but Roosevelt's, I think, throughout his life, was a little bit self-conscious that his father had not taken up arms to protect the Union. I should also mention that Roosevelt's mother was a Southern belle from Georgia, and it would've been very difficult for his father to have fought against, well, her brothers. Two of her brothers were in the Confederate ranks. I think also Roosevelt was attuned to the idea that this was part of the strenuous life, the martial life. I think also there's something very romantic about it because he did not join the army. He was in a volunteer cavalry unit. And this sort of evokes the minuteman tradition in America, where the private citizen is called upon from time to time to preserve hearth and home. So in that sense, Roosevelt with the rest of the country, he's moving towards the 20th century, the American century. And the 20th century is gonna be identified in several ways, including the century of these Pacific wars, whether it's Vietnam, Korea, the Second World War. Well, now we see that the United States, through the Spanish-American War, is going to take the Philippines, which will be something of a template to these 20th century wars, because when Roosevelt is president, he will oversee the ending of the American-Filipino War. That was a three-year conflict. So there's something that's very pregnant about that conflict, and very ironic because it was supposed to be about, quote-unquote, "The freedom of Cuba." But it, it really helps to turn the United States into an overseas Pacific power, and I don't think anybody really saw that coming when war was declared

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 13:31

Yeah. So he comes back a hero.

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 13:35

Mm-hmm.

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 13:36

Um, he becomes governor of New York one term, then he becomes vice president in the election of 1900. How would you describe that relationship with President McKinley? They served together just about six months before McKinley was assassinated. Was it a good relationship? Did they know each other before this?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 13:52

They didn't know each other very well. Roosevelt was New York, largely. He had some experience in Washington, as we talked about before. McKinley, a senator, but most of his life, was in the Midwest, was in Ohio. Roosevelt was actually not very high on McKinley before McKinley was nominated. He wrote a letter to his sister, Annie, that was not very enthusiastic about the nomination. Didn't think that McKinley was a terribly forceful personality. When McKinley is assassinated, Roosevelt will initially, at least rhetorically, cleave to the mantle of McKinley, who he did respect. When he was vice president, to come back to your question, he did show respect for McKinley. They had a cordial relationship. McKinley was sometimes a little concerned about Roosevelt for being, so energetic. And Roosevelt was unable to get a cabinet position in the administration, but he was assistant secretary to the Navy, so that was second best, but that was good enough, and Roosevelt was cordial. It's unclear what would've happened if, well, the president would've lived and Roosevelt would've been boxed in for the vice presidency. Uh, an office that he was not very excited to have for a full four years. After the assassination, Roosevelt rhetorically embellishes, McKinley's record and reputation, and claims to be governing in his name and with his mandate. But obviously Roosevelt was more of a progressive, more for, what we would come to call by the 1930s social welfare programs than McKinley, I would say an older Republican, more of a 19th century figure than Roosevelt, who's really jumping into the 20th century.

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 15:41

Now I know an, an unfair question, but in the interest of time, talking about those progressive reforms as president, what do you think were the most effective progressive reforms he undertook and the most, uh, effective actions against monopolies that he undertook?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 15:54

Yeah. With monopolies, there's the Northern Securities case which gets the ball rolling. This is a massive, railroad empire in the northern part of this country and, sweeping across the plains, and it went to the Supreme Court and,, the trust was broken up. Roosevelt brought it while allowing even larger trusts to exist. He was pretty savvy about this. He said, "I can tell the difference between a good trust and a bad trust." And what he wanted to do was not to break up all these monopolies, because he recognized that industrial power, financial power was critical for America to be a great nation. But he wanted to sort of fire a shot across the bow of some of these corporations and let them know that the government had an eye on them and they should regulate themselves. If they didn't, then the government would draw up suits against them. I think in terms of progressive acts, the Pure Food and Drug Act was very important. This happened in Roosevelt's second term. We have that to thank for being able to go to the grocery store and mostly being pretty confident that we're not buying bad meat, for example. There's also the Hepburn Act, and, this empowered a government agency to potentially set the rates of railroads if they were deemed to be collusionary or simply going too high. Today in 2026, we talk about the affordability issue. That was an issue in 1906 as well, and railroad rates were part of that. And so Roosevelt was thinking broadly about the country as being a republic of consumers, which Americans wouldn't have identified with 30, 40, 50 years earlier. And consumers, they become a more important part of the political process, and the progressive period, in a sense, was a way to find ways to regulate big business to the extent that consumers would not be taken advantage of.

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 17:57

Mm-hmm. And in, in that republic of consumers, there were many consumers of coal. There was a coal strike in 1902, and Roosevelt took decisive action during that. How did those actions kind of fundamentally change the relationship of owners, labor, and the government?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 18:13

Typically, owners would not really negotiate with organized labor. They wouldn't even call it organized labor. They wouldn't recognize it. With this coal strike, Roosevelt forced the two sides to get together, and he served as a kind of a mediator. This is part of his philosophy of the Square Deal, which is to recognize that yes, the owners are there. The owners obviously have a place at the table, but they should no longer own the table. That workers should be there at the table as well, that consumers should be there at the table. Roosevelt says, "Well, I'm the president. I speak for the consumers." So while the workers and the owners are fighting and arguing over, who should get what and how much of it, Roosevelt's looking at the calendar in 1902 saying, "Looks like fall's coming. People, consumers, are gonna want their coal, their heat, and so I speak for them." He made a kind of a rhetorical threat as well to perhaps taking over the mines with the army if that's what it took to keep coal coming in. And I think that's the first time that the owner class felt that the government might not be at least 80% on their side. This is Roosevelt trying to be, as he put it, the honest broker

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 19:35

How did that strike end?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 19:37

Uh, it ended, without a lot of violence. There was some violence, which is one of the reasons why the government got involved in it. But it ended before the winter, and it ended with, labor getting an increase in wages, a reduction in hours, and, it seemed to be altogether a healthy outcome

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 19:57

Now, Roosevelt had some critics then, certainly critics now in terms of his actions in what became the country of Panama in the interest of getting the Panama Canal constructed. How did he respond to those critics?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 20:10

So, shortly after his presidency, he was giving a talk, at University of California, Berkeley. And, maybe it's because he was out of the presidency now, but he said, "You know, um, I've taken criticism for my actions in Panama and, in recognizing the Republic of Panama, which used to be Colombia. Colombia wasn't quite right with us in trying to get this canal built. He didn't say that he was the hand of revolution. He did privately, but he didn't there. But he sort of, dog whistled his way in the speech to letting the people there know that, Congress had some issues with that, and he simply let Congress debate. And to this day, Congress is still, years later, debating about what should happen in that part of the country. And Roosevelt said, "That's okay with me," because as Congress debates, that, that canal is still being built to this day

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 21:03

Years ago I was director of the Howard Baker Center at University of Tennessee in Knoxville, and starting to talk a lot about the Panama Canal Treaty. So that controversial issue of the canal continued for sure. Senator Baker played as you may recall, a vital role working with President Carter to get those treaties passed, and took a lot of heat for it, uh, here in Tennessee.

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 21:22

I, must say, when I was an undergraduate, I was at, a very small political rally and Howard Baker was there.

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 21:28

Ah.

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 21:29

um, some people were asking him some I think fair but tough questions.

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 21:33

Yes

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 21:34

And much to his credit, I thought his responses were fair and as accurate as they could be. Maybe it's too much the 21st century, but, I felt like I was in an environment where people were taking politics seriously, but they weren't simply trying to score points with either the questions or the responses

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 21:52

Uh, he, he told me, and I won't make this a podcast about Howard Baker right now. Maybe that's a good idea, actually. But, uh, they have a great podcast at the Baker School now, I should say. But he always told me that, you have to have a decent respect for differing points of view and that the whole idea is to affect good public policy. So he was a good and a great man, I do believe, and I miss him dearly. Um, Let's stay, in foreign policy for a moment and the growing power of Japan. did President Roosevelt seek to protect our interest in the Pacific, which we gain now, especially after the Spanish-American War, and how did he view that growing power of Japan?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 22:25

He respected Japan, but he also thought it was likely that there could be a Pacific war in the future. In the interest of trying to mitigate that, something that might happen in 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, he saw Korea and the Philippines as being something of a quid pro quo. In other words, are assuming the Philippines would be a natural provocation to Japan. But if the United States recognized Japanese imperialism, Japan had defeated China in a war in the 1890s and had a kind of, empire, in Korea, and if the United States recognized that, at least informally, then we would respect each other's positions. Something that was causing great concern in California was Japanese immigration, and this threatened to become a real issue. Laws in California, segregating Japanese, different schools and whatnot. Essentially, what was happening to African Americans being applied to Japanese Americans. Roosevelt's concerned about America's relationship with Japan. He calls, California officials, the California State School Board to Washington, and they essentially reached an agreement that, that this type of overt segregation, it needs to go. But the government will begin to reduce Japanese immigration into California. And that also means really reducing Japanese immigration into the American territory of Hawaii, which was kind of a gateway for the Japanese workers to come into California. Roosevelt looked at Korea again and said, "I don't wanna get the reputation of supporting imperialism," but when Japan has Korea, that's the place that they can send their workers. Their workers don't have to go to Hawaii. They can go to Korea. So Roosevelt thought that he had essentially done as much as he could do, except for one other thing, and that is to send a great fleet around the world, which really spoke to Roosevelt on a number of levels. And it would visit ports of call, including, Japan, and the Japanese would see American power right in their neighborhood. I should note that these were not the world's best battleships. The British had just come up with the dreadnought, so these were not a dreadnought class, but they were pretty good. They were painted white for show because Roosevelt was always a bit of a peacock. They were celebrated wherever they went, but Roosevelt said later on that he felt that his greatest effort in promoting peace, and this was a guy who won a Nobel Peace Prize for helping to bring the Japanese and Russians together to end their war. He said his greatest, effort at peace was that fleet because it allowed countries like Japan to understand the power of the United States

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 25:34

Interesting. I was curious, uh, his role in bringing that Russo-Japanese War to an end and the Nobel Peace Prize, did that put him in a stronger position in those discussions with the Japanese?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 25:45

I think it did. We know in our present day with our present president that the Nobel Peace Prize can have an interesting, effect, charisma, for those who are in the conversation for it, for those who get it. So when Roosevelt wins that prize, then he's not simply the man who was a military hero. He is now also a man of peace.

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 26:08

You mentioned the Philippines several times. William Howard Taft, I believe was governor or governor general there, close friend of Theodore Roosevelt, his chosen successor as president. What led to their split, and the subsequent campaign by Theodore for the presidency in 1912?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 26:26

I think that, the only thing that could have prevented a split is if Taft would've assured Roosevelt, either formally or informally, that he would only do one term. And then if Roosevelt wanted to come back, Roosevelt could come back. If George Washington had served three terms, I think, that Roosevelt would've served three consecutive terms. I think that Roosevelt felt kind of boxed in by history. We hadn't had a third termer. Roosevelt wasn't a full third termer because, McKinley was president for, a year into a second term. But Roosevelt had assured the press that was really a full term, and so I'm going to adhere to precedence. So Roosevelt goes off to, Africa to give Taft space. He's there for about a year and change. He comes back, and he decides he wants the throne back. It takes him a- another year to work himself up into a, a fighter's lather, but then he identifies Taft as being too conservative, not progressive enough, and there's something to that argument. As Roosevelt said that he would govern under the McKinley mandate, so Taft had said the same about Roosevelt. Neither man really did that. And Roosevelt, then makes the determination that he will run again. And he goes after Taft. And it got personal, which is unfortunate because they had worked well together in different capacities during Roosevelt's presidency and Taft was just a very genial man in general. And so, for Taft, I think the worst thing was that he was now having to fight a friend. You could raise the question, why did he pursue that fight? Taft was, at heart, a jurist who would go on to become, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, and he had honest concerns about Roosevelt coming back to the presidency. As a progressive, Roosevelt was making some noise about finding ways to bring the voice of the people more fully into politics, and so perhaps finding ways to maybe impeach federal judges, perhaps, who knows, even Supreme Court judges. And so there were many Republicans who had been Roosevelt supporters who began to see him, this new post-presidential Roosevelt, as a danger to the Constitution

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 28:46

Why would Roosevelt still pursue this when he wasn't able to gain the Republican nomination? Did he truly think he could win through the third party?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 28:55

I don't think that he believed that because once he has his progressive Bull Moose Party, that means that the Republican Party has split. So essentially, you've just given the election to the Democrats. In 1860, Southern Democrats split from Northern Democrats. That means that if the Republicans nominate anybody, including Abraham Lincoln, they're going to win. And we also know from his correspondence that he didn't really expect to win. There might have been some very, very slight hope that the vote would've been split enough so that nobody would've got a majority in the electoral college. It would've went to the House of Representatives. That had happened two times previously in our history. Roosevelt was drawn to the limelight. He was a peacock, he was a showman, and he was a young man. He left the presidency when he was 50 years old. He went to Africa, he safaried, he traveled all through Europe on multiple occasions, met all the aristocrats, but there was no theater. There was no drama like the carnival that is American politics. And so I would say that he was addicted to that and just couldn't walk away from it

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 30:07

Yeah. I've often thought if he had been a different person, if when he didn't get the Republican nomination, he had backed off, he would've been an advisor. Surely they'd have to-- They would've, they would've buried the hatchet essentially, and he

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 30:18

Sure, sure

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 30:20

But instead, he had no love for Woodrow Wilson. He ensured Woodrow Wilson was elected president. So, again, endlessly, endlessly fascinating. uh, his desire not to violate the precedent of Washington at least at the beginning. But his cousin, FDR, Franklin Roosevelt, did not have any such compunction. Uh, what comparisons do you see between Theodore Roosevelt, and his cousin Franklin Roosevelt?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 30:43

So on paper, there are these interesting overlaps. Both men served in the New York legislature, both men were assistant secretaries, of the Navy, both served as governor, both were vice presidential nominees, and of course, both served in the presidency. They came from different parties, but Teddy Roosevelt's independence from the old guard, in some respects aligns him a little bit more closely to Franklin Roosevelt in that, Roosevelt's progressive Square Deal social welfare legislation helps to provide a foundation for the New Deal. The New Deal, I think, was gonna happen anyway because of the Great Depression, but Franklin Roosevelt enjoyed saying about his very, very popular relative, "Look, I'm being accused of being Teddy Roosevelt here, and I think that that's a great, accusation. I'll embrace that." And so for Democrats and progressive, Republicans, when they saw what Franklin Roosevelt was doing, there was, I think, the natural tendency to link him because of the name, but also because of the domestic politics with Teddy Roosevelt. As you just alluded to earlier, if Roosevelt had not challenged Taft, had not challenged the old guard, he could have been, had he lived for another 20 or 30 years, the elder statesman of his party. In an interesting way, he became something of a shadow or de facto elder statesman for some Democrats a generation later

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 32:15

So, so interesting. Really enjoyed it so much, David. Uh, maybe an unfair question what's next for you?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 32:20

What's next? Um, something completely different. A biography of Henry David Thoreau

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 32:26

When will we see that? Or do you have

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 32:27

Oh gosh,

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 32:28

yet?

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 32:29

no, three, four, five, three, four, five years. Yeah

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 32:32

Okay. Well, I look forward to it for sure, and I can't tell you how much I enjoyed this conversation. Thanks for joining us on "American POTUS."

squadcaster-fg7g_1_05-21-2026_155820 32:38

Thanks, Alan. Great podcast

alan-lowe_1_05-21-2026_155820 32:40

And I wanna thank all of you for listening as well. For more episodes, please make sure you go to americanpotus.org or, of course, to your favorite podcast channel. And don't forget, the "American FLOTUS" podcast we produce in partnership with the First Ladies Association for Research and Education. You can find that also at americanpotus.org or at flare-net.org. Thanks so much for joining us, and I'll see you next time on "American POTUS."