American POTUS: Around the World with Ulysses and Julia Grant featuring Louis Picone

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Transcript

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 0:29

Welcome to American POTUS. I'm your host, Alan Lowe. Thanks so much for joining us. I'm very happy to welcome our guest on this episode, Louis Bacone. Louis is chairman of the Grover Cleveland Presidential Library and Museum, and speaks about our favorite topic, the presidency, all around the world. He's been a frequent commentator in the media, and he's the author of several award-winning books, such as Grant's Tomb: The Epic Death of Ulysses S. Grant and the Making of an American Pantheon; The President is Dead: The Extraordinary Stories of the Presidential Deaths, Final Days, Burials, and Beyond; and the terrific book we'll discuss today, Ulysses' Odyssey: Ulysses S. Grant's World Tour at the Dawn of American Empire. I really enjoyed this book so much. I'm always fascinated with Grant, and certainly this around the world tour they took post-presidency, just an amazing story you tell so well. What led the Grants to decide to travel around the world?

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 1:26

Grant always had this love of travel, and one of the things that I wanted to do in my book is trace that wanderlust from his early days because most historians will talk about the trip almost like an impulse, that after he left the presidency, he had nothing else to do and his daughter lived in England, so he decided to go to Europe and ended up traveling the world. That's the way that the trip is normally framed. But what I wanted to do is trace that love of travel and that desire to see the world from his earliest days. And what I did from going through his papers and reading his memoirs is that you can see that love of travel is from his very earliest days, including one great example is that when he enrolled in West Point is when his father enrolled him in West Point. He said that he had two reasons for going. One was because his father told him to, but also because, "I always had a desire to travel." So you can see that back when he's 17 years old, and that became his first great adventure. He talks about his love of travel during the Mexican-American War and while he's stationed in different locations prior to the Civil War. So there's always this love of travel, and then later on he talks about his desire to see the world. And there's a letter that he writes to Sherman saying in 1867 that he'd love to go, overseas now, but he can't because his duty is keeping him here during the period of Reconstruction. So for a couple of years prior to leaving office, he's focusing more and more on the trip, and he's talking about it more and more with his family and talking about it to the press. And then particularly in the last few months, he's spending time planning, spending time with his son Jesse, and they're kind of planning their journey.

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 3:16

So When did the trip begin, and when did he come back to the US? I know there's a lot of traveling once he gets back to the US, but when did he get back to US shores?

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 3:23

He leaves office in early March of 1877. The, uh, inauguration day is actually pushed off to March 5th because it falls on a Sunday that year. So March 5th, he leaves office, and on May 17th, 1877 is when he departs on a transatlantic steamship from Philadelphia and sets sail for Europe. He doesn't come back to America after going around the world and going all through Europe and Asia. He departs Japan in September of 1879, so two and a half years later when he finally comes back to America. But as you insinuated, the journey's not done yet

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 4:08

I encourage our listeners to read this book. You'll get so many more details than we're able to give you just in one episode So many stops all around the world. When he started this trip, what did the new president, Rutherford B. Hayes, think about it? What was his view of this trip?

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 4:22

Well, when he began, the new president wished him well. One of the last telegrams that he read before he left Philadelphia was from Hayes wishing him well and wishing him a restful journey, because that's really what Grant had in mind, is that getting some rest and traveling in anonymity just as an average tourist. But Hayes also had some other ideas in mind that this could be a great opportunity for diplomacy which will kinda take place later on, as well as create a military presence by providing Grant a battleship for him to use, which is stationed, in Europe, making their way to the Pacific. So, giving Grant passage on that battleship will create that military presence as Grant enters these foreign shores. But Hayes is definitely looking at the diplomatic benefits of Grant taking this journey, even though this is something that Grant really doesn't have in mind

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 5:24

so what about the American public and the press? How did they respond to this really a first of a kind around the world trip for a former president?

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 5:32

Very favorably. When Grant leaves office, there's not popularity polls at the time, but there's a lot of anecdotal evidence by the reception that he's getting, from audiences and from the speeches that he gives, including at the centennial in Philadelphia, that his popularity is waning after eight years in office, which pretty much happens to every president. There's the different events that occurred while he was president, the scandals as well, as other reasons that his popularity has gone down, particularly in the South with his efforts, to protect Black Americans in the South. So when he departs, there's some criticism in the press about what a poor representative that Grant is going to make when he travels the world. But once he gets overseas and Americans begin reading about these enormous receptions that he's receiving from immediately when his ship arrives in Liverpool, and there's hundreds of thousands of people that are lining the wharves, waving banners for him, and ships decorated with American flags. So the press is reading this, or the American public is reading this, and almost immediately there's this new respect for Grant, and you can see from the very early days, there's talks about Grant running again in 1880,, which increases throughout the journey. And these receptions are also being interpreted, one, as admiration and respect for Grant, but also, and this is what Grant is saying too, that, "These receptions aren't just for me. These receptions are for the United States of America."

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 7:10

Grant mania essentially, everywhere he goes, as you said from the very beginning, these enormous crowds and meeting with these, leaders of state as he goes around Europe and Asia. What did Grant take away from his meeting with German Chancellor Bismarck? The unification of Germany had, had occurred not long before this. What did he think of Bismarck and vice versa? And was there any inkling of the challenges that a united Germany was eventually gonna cause in Europe and the world?

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 7:38

Yeah, so Grant's meeting with world leaders all throughout his journey, and one of the most significant is Otto von Bismarck. And so they have this really incredible discussion. And fortunately, John Russell Young, he's a reporter who ends up joining Grant for most of the journey, is in the room where it happened. So we have this very detailed transcript of their discussion as well. Otto von Bismarck sees this kindred spirit in Grant because Otto von Bismarck had united Germany and Grant had reunited America. So they have this very interesting discussion, very enlightening discussion about the Civil War. And, a biographer of Grant says that Grant never spoke so clearly about the war that he just won, than he did in this discussion with Otto von Bismarck, 'cause Bismarck wants to talk about military strategy and why didn't he win the war earlier with a larger army? Couldn't he have won the war in six months or two years as opposed to four years? And Grant is focused on the fact that slavery needed to end, and he says, "If we won the war too soon, then slavery may have survived, and that couldn't have happened." So it's a really fascinating discussion that they have. Von Bismarck ends up,, inviting Grant, as almost every world leader did, 'cause they thought this is what Grant wanted to see, to a military review. And every leader invites Grant to see their military, and this is something that Grant is not interested in at all. And he says, before I was in the military, I was just a farmer, and I really have no interest in military affairs." But he goes because he wants to be diplomatic and he wants to be polite. But in Germany, he also wants to understand a potential formidable military force or a growing military force because Germany, has used the Industrial Revolution to focus on militarization. And while he's in Germany, he sees this enormous military presence,, in the schools, in the streets, in the factories, how it's focused on their military and on armaments. And he also sees how Jewish people are being persecuted in Germany too. So you can see what Grant is seeing in the 1870s is what will play out in the, the 1910s and the 1930s.

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 10:12

I wanna, I'm gonna go back to England real quick because I, I failed to mention the fact they actually, sit down with Queen Victoria. How did that meeting go?

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 10:19

when Grant gets to England, there's these enormous receptions. So when Grant realizes that he's not gonna be able to travel like the common citizen that he wants to, because after 16 years of being in the public eye, he just wants to travel like an everyday tourist, almost like if me or you went to Europe now. He wants to line up at the Colosseum. He wants to walk around the Louvre with everybody else. He wants to take a tour of Pompeii like everybody else. But he realizes right away that that's not gonna happen because, what begins in England will just,, increase all throughout the world wherever he goes. These enormous receptions, whether he's in big cities or whether he's in small little villages on the Nile, just continue all throughout his journey. But Queen Victoria really doesn't know how to handle Grant, because there's all these protocols for heads of state. If a king or a queen comes to England, there's all these protocols, but there's no protocols for how to handle a former president, essentially out of office, just a common citizen. And it's really interesting because she almost tries to avoid Grant while Grant is getting these receptions all throughout England, which culminates in,, the town of Newcastle, where 150,000 people are cheering in the streets. And I joke around that England wouldn't see these crowds until the Beatles in the 1960s, which isn't really that much of a joke. So She goes to one of her castles in Scotland and tries to wait it out, figuring, let this die down. Let Grant leave so I don't need to address this awkward situation." But the volume of the reception gets so loud she realizes that she can't do that. So just days before Grant is about to leave England, she invites him to have dinner and stay overnight at Windsor Castle. And once again, the American public, the American press report very favorably on this, and the American public take this as a sign of respect for America and a sign of admiration for the growing American empire,

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 12:27

So Meeting with Queen Victoria, all these leaders around Europe, as you mentioned, in the Nile, he was very impressed with Egypt, if I remember correctly.

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 12:35

Yeah, that was one of his favorite places. Grant was fascinated with the ancient monuments being in this ancient civilization. And he pondered how these monuments could have been built, and he loved the aspect of seeing the monuments, but he also loved it because for several weeks he was sailing very slowly on the Nile. And while every village he went to, people would come out, sometimes just a local constable would come out to greet him or a couple hundred of the villagers. He was traveling much more casually than he was when he was in Europe. So he loved that aspect too. And he mentions after he finishes sailing down the Nile and then returning, so 600 miles down to the beginning of the Nile River at that time. He mentions when he returns that this is one place that he would love to come back to with his good friends from home and take much more time to sail down the Nile. So Egypt is definitely one of the highlights of the trip for Grant,

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 13:39

of, of all the historic sites he saw, which ones did he find most impressive? I assume then the ones in Egypt, and when perhaps which ones did not quite live up to what he expected?

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 13:50

Yeah, Egypt was definitely one of the most impressive, as was Pompeii. And when he went to Pompeii, he took a tour and he said that this is one of the few places that did not disappoint my expectations. And so he was fascinated with Pompeii and with just the history of it and just the fascinating situation that it had been buried for so long. And excavations were still going on, like they are today, but they were still much more prominent at the time. They even had a special, excavation for him, which they would do for honored guests. And the archeologist was a little bit embarrassed because all they found was a, a loaf of petrified bread, and he offered to dig even more for Grant, but Grant was happy with that. So Pompeii was definitely one of the highlights for him. When he was in Norway as well too, because he arrived in Kristiana, then Oslo, and the king was out of town, so Grant had to wait several days because the king wanted to meet with him. So Grant traveled north, in Norway. 'Cause Grant just figured if you go traveling around the world, you might as well get to see everything that there is to see. And that was one of the highlights for him. And even there, villagers would come out. Sometimes just a couple dozen villagers would come out and they'd be waving flags to see him

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 15:13

This had to be exhausting for both of them. How did they hold up physically during all this travel?

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 15:18

Grant loved every minute of it. Sometimes he ends up in the strangest of places like his boat will get grounded when he's on a river that's trying to get to Bangkok, and he's stuck for 24 hours in a typhoon on Easter Sunday. And he never complains once. He just seems to be enjoying every minute of the travel experience. And people who are traveling with him are just fascinated by his energy. They said that his energy never wanes, that he's always the first one up, that he wants to get to see everything. Now Julia is a little different. One, she's a great sport because she does pretty much everything that Ulysses does, but her energy is not quite so unflagging. Just like her wanderlust isn't insatiable like Grant's. So Grant would've probably kept traveling. He wanted to go see New Zealand. He wanted to go to Australia. South America was on his list. So I think it was Julia that eventually reined him back in to wrap up the trip. But Grant's energy seemed to be endless. One reporter saw him and said that he looks better than he ever looked, and Grant had said that he lost 25 pounds from all the walking that he's done.

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 16:35

our listeners know, I'm sure when he comes back there's a horrible financial swindle that he's subject to and loses his money, and then he gets sick and... But I wondered if those things hadn't happened, would he have gone back out again with Julia to see South America and see those other places? That wanderlust, I assume, was still there.

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 16:52

Yeah. And you know, one of the interesting things about this book is when do I wrap it up? Because the travels don't stop. Now, the world tour, as we,, mentioned, when he comes back to San Francisco, he takes the Transcontinental Railroad and he visits all locations in America. So finally, he returns to Philadelphia in December of 1879, and then just three weeks later, he starts to travel again. And now he goes south. He goes through the former Confederate States, he goes to Cuba, he goes to Mexico, and he has all these different locations that he wants to go to. He wants to go to Haiti as well. But Julia's energy is definitely flagging by that point. So he makes it back to Galena in April of 1880, a full three years after his trip begins. And then after that, he still takes journeys. He'll go out west to Colorado. So it's difficult to really put a pin on it and say, "This is when Grant stopped traveling."

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 17:49

Again, amazing energy. I wanna go back. Before he gets back to the US, there's a, set of, episodes in China and Japan. Uh, during his visits there, how did he play the role of peacemaker?

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 18:01

So In America, Grant is known for Let Us Have Peace and really focusing on peace between North and South and establishing,, peace with the Black community in the South as well as all throughout America. But when he goes overseas, he begins talking about global peace. And this wasn't really anything that began overseas, 'cause during his administration with the Alabama Claims, Grant sets the precedent for international arbitration during his presidency. So while he's overseas, he's advising nations on how to retain their independence, and avoiding wars. And even when he's in Asia, when he visits China and Japan, he advises them that they should avoid war because the only nations who are going to benefit are going to be European nations. When he's in Europe, he's talking about an international institution, that can resolve international disputes just like our, Supreme Court will resolve disputes in America. So he's essentially talking about the League of Nations or the United Nations, again, decades before anything like this came to fruition. So his reputation for integrity and his reputation for fairness and decency precedes him by the time he gets to the last legs of his international journey, which is first China and then the next empire that he visits is Japan. And when he gets to China, they're on the precipice of going to war with Japan over a disputed island chain, what they call the Luchu Islands, or today is the Ryukyu Islands. And there's this whole backstory to it. It had been an independent kingdom and is now being disputed between China and Japan. So there's no United Nations, or there's no international courts at this time, but there is Ulysses S. Grant, who happens to arrive in China right when these tensions are reaching a boiling point. So when he gets to China, he meets with the viceroy, and then he meets with the prince, and they ask him, when he goes to Japan, can he help negotiate, a peaceful resolution to this brewing tension? And Grant is very diplomatic. And he understands but he says, "If anything I can do can make for peaceful relations, can help result in peace, then I would be honored to do it, 'cause there's nothing that can be better than being a peacemaker. And that's what he does. When he goes to Japan, he gets an equally enthusiastic reception that he receives in China, because all throughout his journey, it's like his receptions are snowballing and they reach, this apex in some ways when he reaches Asia, because no president has visited Asia before, has come anywhere near Asia, has really visited anywhere besides Europe. So they're so honored by the fact that Grant is visiting. And when he goes to Japan, he meets with the emperor and then he meets with a peace commission in Nikko. And through Grant's efforts, he manages to establish peace between the two nations, and they don't go to war over this island chain

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 21:16

When he was in Japan, uh, kind of the same question I asked you about Germany, did he foresee the growing power of Japan and the possible threat to America?

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 21:26

He saw the growing power in both China and Japan, and he says that, Japan is growing faster, that they will be a formidable power in a couple of decades. China, it might take 50 years before they turn into this formidable power, but indeed they will. And he doesn't as much see them as a threat, but he does see them as a growing power to be reckoned with. And while much of this trip was lost to history, it's interesting how it'll occasionally pop up in newspapers, and one of those times is after Pearl Harbor. And reporters will say that Grant predicted that they are turning into this power that will have to be reckoned with. Not as much of a threat, but a power. So in 1941, his trip resurfaces as a warning

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 22:19

Now, we mentioned he meets with emperors and kings and queens and Otto von Bismarck. Of all those, did he say one that most impressed him or perhaps least impressed him?

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 22:30

Otto von Bismarck was one of the most impressive that he met, and also kind of where we just left off, when he goes to China and he meets with the viceroy, Viceroy Li Hongzhang. And Li Hongzhang also sees Grant as this kindred spirit, and he's almost like a Grant groupie. He's following him around wherever he goes. And, Li Hongzhang will say, "You and me are the two greatest people in the world. We're the two greatest generals in the world. I put down the Taiping, Rebellion, and you put down the Confederate Rebellion." So they form this very fast friendship, and regardless of language barriers, which is persistent all throughout Grant's trip, there's interpreters that are helping to foster these relationships. This, this very nice friendship, and what's fascinating about it, there's all of these, ancient traditions in China about men and women, eating together in places where Westerners wouldn't go. But the fact that Li Hongzhang wants to spend time with Grant, he won't let any of these ancient traditions stand in the way, so he'll have banquets, he'll, attend banquets with European women just so he doesn't miss the opportunity to spend this time with Grant, and Grant will be welcomed into different locations that no Westerner had, been before

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 23:50

And now y-, how is she received by these heads of state? Does she go into these meetings with him? Is she covered by the foreign press as they make this trip around the world?

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 24:02

Yeah, many of these meetings, Julia will be there too. Not all of them, but some of the meetings when Grant meets with the Pope, Julia is there with him, and she'll have the Pope bless a ring that Grant had given her for their 25th anniversary. Sometimes, she's helping to, get Grant out of his shell because Grant is famously reticent and he doesn't like speaking with strangers even though you can see much more of his personality during the journey and how he's speaking more with people, speaking more freely. But there are some occasions where Grant is just not forming those personal bonds during banquets, and Julia will help make those personal connections by jumping into the conversation and offering topics for them to speak about

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 24:50

A very impressive woman, very impressive first lady and just a, a, a amazing

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 24:54

She is.

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 24:55

We had an episode

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 24:56

Yeah

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 24:57

FLOTUS just about Julia, and I've learned a lot about her recently and continue to be more and more impressed. So when Grant came back to the US, you said the long trip back to eventually to Galena. Uh, when he goes to the different places across the country, is he received in the same way he was around the world?

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 25:13

He was, yeah. When he returns to San Francisco, there's this massive reception, and it's written in the newspapers that nothing like this has ever been seen before in the city of San Francisco. And that's a common theme all throughout the journey, is nothing like this has ever been seen before in history, whether he's in Asia or the receptions that he's receiving in Europe, and they continue when he comes to America. And he takes the transcontinental railroad to travel across the country, and he makes stops along the way. He goes back to the Oregon Territory to revisit Fort Vancouver where he had been stationed decades earlier. And he travels to Chicago because there is a reunion of the Army of the Tennessee that he's very focused on making sure that he gets to. And just everywhere he goes, there's these massive receptions. When he gets to Philadelphia, there's 350,000 people there to greet him he's paraded through the streets and people are cheering. There's a former Confederate who gives him a miniature gold replica of the table from Appomattox. And it's just so symbolic of the reception that he gets all throughout his transcontinental journey by former Union veterans and former Confederate veterans. But it's also, foreshadowing for when he takes the next leg of the journey and he goes into the former Confederate States where he's greeted just as enthusiastically as he is in former Union territory

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 26:45

Tr- truly amazing that that's the case. And, uh, I don't know if our listeners know that the Ulysses Grant Presidential Library and Museum is indeed in the former Confederacy in, in Mississippi today, Mississippi

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 26:56

It is

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 26:56

University, so a great place. He was not able, though, to translate that popularity into a third term,, though he attempted that. uh, what do you think? If he had been elected and stayed healthy, do you think this trip would've affected his foreign policy, how he, interacted with the world?

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 27:12

Yeah. Yeah, I definitely do. And just speaking about the third term just quickly, 'cause Grant did not wanna run for a third term. All throughout his journey, as his popularity is surging internationally, his popularity is surging in America as well, too. And his supporters are sending him letters trying to convince him to stay longer on his journey to make sure he doesn't come back too soon and, wanna kinda ride that peak of popularity. It's not until Grant goes into the former Confederate states that he decides to run again. He sees the bitter sectionalism. Even though he's getting these very warm receptions, he's also going into Black churches, and he's going into Black schools to meet with the African American community. So he's not blind to the bitter sectionalism that he sees between North and South, as well as the desperate situation of Black Americans in the South after Reconstruction had essentially ended when Hayes was elected. So that's when he decides that he's going to run again because he understands that for unity of the nation, for Black Americans to be able to enjoy their full civil rights, including access to the polls, that their best bet would be if Grant was reelected, or Grant believes that he's got their best interests at heart. So that when he decides to allow his name to be thrown into the mix for the Republican convention. Now, ultimately, he loses to James Garfield, but had Grant won, I do believe that American history as well as American foreign policy could have been much different. One is that he forms these bonds with the Chinese community when he's in China. The Chinese American community as well as the Chinese community. And when he's in China, leaders are telling him, that, "When you go back to America, you have hundreds of thousands of our people there, and they're hardworking people, and please look after them." And that's something that Grant takes to heart. So the Chinese Exclusion Acts occur during the Chester Arthur administration, which is essentially what would've been Grant's administration because Garfield was assassinated. So I believe that could have been much different, that the Chinese Exclusion Acts might have been prevented or might have played out much differently As well as the Jim Crow laws in the South, because pretty much every president after Grant less interest and more and more acceptance of the status quo in the South. So I think that the trajectory of civil rights and security for Black Americans in the South could have been much different under a third Grant term. And finally, international peace efforts, 'cause Grant had established these friendly relations with world leaders all around the globe. So just think about how international conflicts might have played out different with a mediator in a growing empire as Grant may have been, had he become president again. So it's really difficult to say how it would've been different, but you can definitely see it playing out more favorably had Grant won again.

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 30:29

The what ifs of course are very hard to answer, but both Lincoln's death and Grant's inability to get the third term I think, had some extraordinarily, consequential, uh, effects on our nation for sure. well, th- a great conversation. A really fascinating book. Uh, what's next for you? What are you working on right now?

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 30:48

Well, the book just came out about

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 30:49

Yes

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 30:50

weeks ago. So now I'm working on doing lectures for the book a- and podcasts such as this one, which has really been enjoyable. I have a couple different ideas of my next book, but I haven't really committed to one yet. So, hopefully over the next couple months I'll have time to do that and get something else in the hopper.

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 31:09

question I ask the authors on here, but I, I always do it anyway, so

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 31:13

It's it's a perfectly fair question

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 31:17

Well, Lucas, I can't tell you how much I enjoyed this conversation. I really enjoyed the book. Thank you so much for joining us on American POTUS.

squadcaster-e792_2_06-09-2026_162500 31:24

Uh, thank you so much, Alan.

alan-lowe_1_06-09-2026_161407 31:26

and thanks to all of you for listening as well. Please make sure you check out all of our American POTUS episodes at americanpotus.org, as well as episodes of American FLOTUS, the podcast all about the first ladies that American POTUS produces in partnership with the First Ladies Association for Research and Education, or FLARE. You can find American FLOTUS at americanpotus.org, flare-net.org, or anywhere you download your podcasts. so much, and I'll see you next time on American POTUS