Leading Change With Best Selling Author Pam Marmon

September 16, 2020 Pam Marmon Season 2 Episode 1
Leading Change With Best Selling Author Pam Marmon
Leading Change With Best Selling Author Pam Marmon
Sep 16, 2020 Season 2 Episode 1
Pam Marmon

Nineteen80 is a management consultancy and creative agency focused on transitions. As a Xennial, I was born in an analog world, and came of age in a digital world. As the world transitions from command and control to distributed teams, analog to digital, concentrated power and wealth to distributed knowledge of the crowd, Nineteen80 seeks to bring the best of both worlds together to create something better.

Pam is a long time friend, former colleague at Point B, and a fellow change management expert.

Bio About The Guest

Pam Marmon is a change management leader and CEO of Marmon Consulting. She is Prosci certified change management expert and Cornell University certified organizational designer with 15+ years of experience and a proven success record in implementing organizational initiatives and culture transformations.

Episode Summary

In this episode, Pam and I spoke about...

  • Digital and Culture transformation
  • Communicating in a digital world and breaking barriers
  • Readiness assessment around organizational leadership and culture
  • Organizational trauma


Connect With Pam Marmon

Connect With Daniel Hoang

Date recorded July 30, 2020

Music from
This podcast was edited by Naya Moss and Namos Studio.

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Show Notes Transcript

Nineteen80 is a management consultancy and creative agency focused on transitions. As a Xennial, I was born in an analog world, and came of age in a digital world. As the world transitions from command and control to distributed teams, analog to digital, concentrated power and wealth to distributed knowledge of the crowd, Nineteen80 seeks to bring the best of both worlds together to create something better.

Pam is a long time friend, former colleague at Point B, and a fellow change management expert.

Bio About The Guest

Pam Marmon is a change management leader and CEO of Marmon Consulting. She is Prosci certified change management expert and Cornell University certified organizational designer with 15+ years of experience and a proven success record in implementing organizational initiatives and culture transformations.

Episode Summary

In this episode, Pam and I spoke about...

  • Digital and Culture transformation
  • Communicating in a digital world and breaking barriers
  • Readiness assessment around organizational leadership and culture
  • Organizational trauma


Connect With Pam Marmon

Connect With Daniel Hoang

Date recorded July 30, 2020

Music from
This podcast was edited by Naya Moss and Namos Studio.

Support the show -

Support the show (

Daniel Hoang: [00:00:00] Welcome to season two of the 1980 podcast. I'm your host and founder of 1980, January one, 1980 is a management consultant and creative agency. And I founded this because I wanted to create a new way to help bridge organizations from an analog world to a digital world as a Xenial. I grew up in a world that was analog.

I came of age in a digital world and I see a transition it's happening today. Transitioning happening from single leadership. It's a distributed leadership change of power for one hand, 10. Doesn't it. Movement towards racial equity and movement towards economic equity. The shift is going to be painful and we need tools to make that change.

So the theme of season two is really about transition. And I'm kicking off season two with episode one, with my friend Pam Marmon, she's Bell's bestselling book author, and she is a change management expert. And the rest of the season is going to include really amazing people that really inspired faded and founded my thoughts, my thinking.

And I was incredibly surprised when they said yes to coming in this podcast. So I'm excited that season two, Is really a good, include an awesome lineup. And I couldn't think of anyone better to kick this off than Pam, she and I worked at a company called Point B and she was in the change management practice.

And when I joined Point B I intentionally chose not to get into the change management practice because that's kind of backwards. I had lots of experience with them before, but I wanted to. Build my chops in project management, learn more about technology. And so this was an opportunity for me to step away from change management along the way.

Of course, it's part of my fabric. It's part of who I am. I got a chance to work with him and she's just been a great friend, great support of this business and a very excited to have her join episode. Let's get to it.

And welcome to the 1980 podcasts. I'm joined with me, my very good friend and bestselling author, Pam Harmon. She wrote no one's listening and it's your fault. Pam I'm very excited to have you joining me today. Welcome. 

Pam Marmon: [00:02:28] Thank you for having me, Daniel. It's a pleasure to be here.

Daniel Hoang: [00:02:30] For our audience here. They may not know who you are, but I definitely know that you are a really amazing person that you and I worked together in a consulting farm together.

And our passion is around change management. We'll get into that today. So before can we get started? Why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself and tell me about your book, because I'm very excited about that. 

Pam Marmon: [00:02:48] Absolutely. So I identify myself as a millennial, but I'm one of the older millennials.

and I started a consulting farm because I wanted to help leaders transform their companies, transform their organizations. And at the heart of it truly is helping leaders overcome fear, the fear of change. and so I wrote a book and no one's listening and it's your fault is a book to help leaders understand how to communicate effectively during transformations.

Typically communication is broken for most of my clients. And so that's kind of the starting point. But throughout the book, I dive deeper into the layers. Complexity is around change, how to help leaders understand the impact to their teams, to their people and how to help them lead and be better leaders as a result of that.

Daniel Hoang: [00:03:28] And so this podcast is labeled 1980. I founded my own company inspired by your actions and kind of you went on to create your own company. Is it, Hey, I've got to follow Pam and her path. I created my own company and I labeled it in 1980. I was born in 1980 and I, you and I are actually in the same cost of generation called Xenials and I'm going to read a Wikipedia explanation here, and it's basically those born in 1977 to 1983, roughly.

And then we're called the Oregon trail generation, right. You probably grew up playing Oregon trail, or maybe not. We can talk a little bit about your background as well. but we grew up in a world before technology in an analog world, but we came of age in a digital world. And so we adopted Facebook, social media, the smartphone, during our formative years.

And so we know technology, but also we know the world before that. And before this, recording here, you were born in Bulgaria. 

Pam Marmon: [00:04:19] Right. I was born in Bulgaria, which at the time was the former, it was a communist country. and so I grew up with really no technology, very limited technology. And it wasn't until I came to America when I was 12 years old, that I actually got the chance to work on computers.

so that was my first introduction to the technology world. 

Daniel Hoang: [00:04:37] and that kind of positions you really well because you did grow up in a world before technology. And I think Gen Z is the new generation. Now that they're the digital native generation, they were born in a world. my son, my five year old only knows the iPad and only it tries to touch everything and use this voice.

And he speaks to every device as expecting it to speak back to him. and I think. 

Pam Marmon: [00:04:57] And as I have young little boys as well. And so that's kind of the same experience we have in our house as well, where technology is part of their everyday life and how they learn and how to, how they communicate.

So it's very good. 

Daniel Hoang: [00:05:08] And so this podcast I'm really interested in just the concept of sense-making trying to understand what this world is all about. And as a Xenial and as someone in this customer, I'm really confused where the world's heading, right. I am so excited about technology, but I'm also seeing just lots of bad things happening with the world right now.

We're so addicted. Our devices were so drawn in and especially with COVID. Now, we are far removed from each other. The only way you and I are talking to each other is over a screen right now. And so I remember the world where we actually talked about. Getting together face to face conversations. And so let's go back a little bit about your book.

Your book really is about communications and it's like, how do you communicate? How do you reach across the aisle? How do you talk to someone, whether it's virtually or in person? And I'm looking at the book cover has got this amazing image of two cans, Titus string, you and I probably grew up in doing that as a little kid as well.

Let's talk about communication in this modern future world. What do you, where do you see that going? 

Pam Marmon: [00:06:05] Yeah, absolutely. The technology is deeply rooted and embedded into how we communicate. And I don't think that's going to go away, but I, what I really hope that we don't lose is the sense of connecting with the individual and relying on technology as a tool, but truly understanding people and connecting and relating to people as individuals and who they are.

As human beings. And so my hope is that leaders will look at the trends and the technology developments that are happening and assess how can I leverage the best of what technology brings while still tapping into the emotions and the empathy that's required for me to communicate effectively with people.

Daniel Hoang: [00:06:40] So now that leaders are stuck at home or they're behind a screen, what kind of advice would you have for leaders to be able to communicate, especially now that some that had the, just the traditional I communicate by being in person or walking the halls. A lot of that's not possible anymore.

And now we're trying to do it over a virtual screen. Point of view. I kind of want to hear yours first. We saw it before I started. Yeah. 

Pam Marmon: [00:07:01] So my advice would be just be real with people. when you are doing yours, zoom calls or video conferences or whatever, it may be real, be open, be transparent and allow for life to happen as it's happening in front of you rather than, back in the day when we didn't have this, circumstances we're in right now, things felt a little bit more polished. We had the time to do our polished video and presentations that, were beautiful and whatever, but in this COVID space that we're in right now, my advice would be just be transparent, be real demonstrate empathy, ask your team, they're doing ask people how they're doing so that you can connect with them in a very real and tangible way. I'm curious to hear now, what do you think? 

Daniel Hoang: [00:07:40] One of the things I'm moving towards and you're probably seeing my studio space right here, I've invested a whole bunch of money into kind of building out my home studio space because I think leaders are their own media company of tomorrow. Right? So they can't, you cannot be being isolated leader anymore.

You're basically a one person media company. And now. You need to communicate, you need to inspire, you need to connect to a broad audience and that audience can be small within your company, or it could be broader with all your customer sets. And so right now, my home setup I have right here is I got a broadcast podcast mic, and that's why the sound's coming through. And I have a teleprompter.

And so I'm actually looking at the camera right now, as I'm talking to you, that's why I have this eye contact with you. It's a late invention that I'm creating because right now, how do you differentiate yourself in this world where everyone's looking to same, we're all behind the same two inch, a little square on a zoom call.

Like how do we communicate a little bit better? And I think leaders of tomorrow need to be that media company. You need to be like a late night TV shows. You need to be an entertainer. You be entertaining. 

Yeah, and I love the point of entertainment and the humor that's required for you to just kind of break the ice or break the barriers for people so they can relate to you and feel connected to you in a very meaningful way.

And you and I met, I think we talked about education as well. And so for the educators out there for the teachers out there, You're no longer just your educators, your entertainers. And I sync my child right now. Like he's really into YouTube videos and he's what the stuff he's watching they're entertaining, right?

Like the people that are YouTube are very entertaining. And then you flip over to school and it's a very run mundane, step one, step two, step three. And so I think for the education world, like how do we bring some of that cool late night show technology, ways of communicating and then to bringing that to our children and getting them engaged and excited them.

Pam Marmon: [00:09:23] Yeah, I think there's definitely a huge learning curve. And even when it comes to education, one of the big thing for me right now is letting my kids just enjoy life and play, and be bored. Can we just, talk about that? Just learning to be bored and the joy of that and discovering things that are just very normal and real, and, dig in the dirt and whatever play outside.

And so even just being able to separate ourselves from technology as well as critical, Specifically on the topic of technology and I'm so glad you brought it up because it's something that's been on my mind. I'm actually reading a book on, I think it's called the smart technology family or something like that.

I can reference that again, but, it talks about the need for us to separate ourselves from technology as well. And one thing that I started doing is every morning I actually plugged my phone away at night and I don't look at it for at least an hour into my day because I don't want to be so attached and dependent on my phone in itself.

And so I've implemented that I'm curious, tried anything to kind of separate yeah. You're from the technology or what your thoughts are on that. 

Daniel Hoang: [00:10:23] Yeah, it is a perfect segway because tomorrow in an I'm starting to pack, literally right now we're packing for a camping trip. We bought a popup camper, just as the pandemic was hitting.

And I saw this coming in like, Oh my gosh, let's run out there and get a camper, in case there's a run for it. We actually got a good deal because like during the shutdown, like all these places were shutting down and no one was buying. So we got a good deal. We got a little pop up camper. So this weekend, we're going to take that pop up camper with our little pod family, and we're going to go out to the coast and we're going to spend a couple of days out there and both adults and kids are going to have no devices.

And I think the hardest thing about raising children is being that double standard. We say no device for the kids, but then the adults are on it all day long. I'm working all day long. And so I'm holding myself to that same standard. And I want to go back to what you said about being bored and let's go back to, we rewind back to our childhood.

I remember being bored all the time and I haven't been bored. You're right. Just, I haven't been born in a long time. I forgot what it's like to be bored. 

Pam Marmon: [00:11:21] Isn't that true. And it's fascinating to me. I remember growing up and just playing in the dirt. We played pretend I would, dig up things and make it little special meals or whatever that I wanted as a kid.

And just playing with the silliest things and little papers and clips and like things that you find on the street. And I literally played in the streets and now fast forward to. Today and watching my children. And one thing that we've done specifically with technology is, we put an hour limit on their iPads and they're all educational, but nevertheless, we feel like there has to be a limit.

And we talk about technology as a tool and the, and then we just give them space to be born and that's okay. You can be bored and you can just kind of wander around and let your thoughts and explore what comes to mind or find something to do. It's quite alright. I think it's part of learning.

Daniel Hoang: [00:12:08] It's really hard because these devices are engineered to keep you occupied and eyeballs on it as much as possible. Right. They have. Thousands of people design engineering to just draw your attention to this device, eyeballs on it. That's how they make money. The downside of that is now we fill every living moment with some sort interaction on Twitter or any kind of platform where we're playing around.

We're scrolling, infinite scroll. There's no. There is no being bored. When you have this one device with you, I want to go explore why is being bored? Why is that? What does that make the world? Why does that make it better for you? and I think I'll start with mine. I'm a creative and 90% of my process. I don't tell my clients this, but 80% of my process is just sitting around doing nothing.

And then I get the aha moment that the last minute, and it's such a rush to put everything together. And it's a wow moment. And I think in that moment where I'm just sitting there and bored and everything, all that processing is happening my brain without any kind of my direct interaction and that it doesn't happen if I'm filling up that space.

Pam Marmon: [00:13:10] I love what you just said, because I think that if our minds are occupied a hundred percent of the time, there is no room for creativity and you can't be creative and innovative if you don't allow the space for that. I think boredom has a lot to do with it. I know I'm late to the game, but I started to do mindful meditations recently, and I haven't.

An app is still again, we use technology. I have an app that just kind of calms me down and lets me focus on one thing at a time. And I think, allowing yourself to be bored and allowing yourself to just focus on one thing at a time and, and to be present for me, the key right now is how can I be present in this moment and only think about what's in front of me instead of allow the thousand different ideas that are in the back.

But my mind, come till, come to life. So I don't know. What do you think, what's your take on meditation and mindfulness? 

Daniel Hoang: [00:13:58] Oh my gosh, you were perfect. I've been seeing a therapist since the beginning of this pandemic. It started before the cause I wanted to work on myself and all of a sudden, as we're getting into this and it, one of my biggest takeaways is I think the differentiation between, when this pandemic is over is people that have gotten their mindfulness together.

Haven't gotten their kind of mind, mindful health together. because I think we're all going to be somewhat traumatized as an entire generation, as an entire planet in a species we're all traumatized by this whole thing. And I think to succeed, to be kind of that the wind in this future world is to be able to find a way to calm down the mind.

And I have to admit, I am the worst at it. I'm so bad at it. And every answer, every therapy session I go through, it always comes back to mindfulness. And I have such a disconnect between mind and body. Because I'm just turning away. Alright. I'm part of this crazy world where we're seeing things just escalate and more and more information.

And there's so much overflowing of notifications and dings and bells and information. I think getting back to that moment where we're just sitting quietly again, I'm working on that personally and I'm trying a couple of laps, but I think I'm really dedicating. Equally as much time as I put into the gym and physical fitness or nutrition, I want to make sure that third leg of the stool, the mindful health is equally treated as well.

Pam Marmon: [00:15:16] Yeah, I love that because the mind and the body is connected. And so it all, it's holistic, we have to have a holistic approach. One thing that I'm doing with my kids is I'm actually teaching them how to take better care of their patients. So I have twins that are five and a four year old. And at that age, there's a lot of emotions and they're learning how to cope and how to recognize emotions and others.

And so I'm using a mindful generation's resources. To help them identify their own feelings, but also the feelings of others. When you see other children express emotions, and then how do you calm yourself down if you're frustrated or if you feel a certain emotion, how do you respond and how do you react?

And in that process, it's almost like I'm observing myself. Am I responding the right way when I feel okay, or when I feel under stress, and what can I take away as an adult? Because really kids learn from the parents. And so if we, as the parents are. Not handling stress well, or we're not sleeping or we're not eating well.

We're setting the example for our kids. you can say a thousand things, but if you're not modeling it for them, they're probably not going to listen. They're just going to watch what you do and do it. You do. So, I think it's really important for us as adults to also be teaching these mindfulness.

Principles for our kids as well, because they're under stress. they're not seeing their friends, they're not playing the way they used to play. Their world has really flipped upside down as well. And you're right. I think this generation is really going to have to be, just to be focused on coping with the situation that we're in and the social isolation that we're all experiencing in some way.

And to be able to overcome that because, eventually. We will emerge out of the COVID season , and when that happens, I, my hope is that, we come out better human beings as a result of it. 

Daniel Hoang: [00:16:57] For sure. I want to touch on a piece of technology advice in, and I think I've been using two devices, one for myself.

So I got a very expensive device called muse, and it's basically a biofeedback device I put on my head and it measured it to brain waves. Your heart rate. and a number of other kind of things. And as you're meditating, what it's doing is it's giving you feedback via audio. Right? So, and so when I put it on, it's got a sound of this rainforest and, my mind is just completely drenching.

Is this like really loud. And as I'm finding a way to calm it down, the sounds actually quiet down and it's giving you that feedback. Now, my five-year-old, I can't use it cause it's too complicated, but there is a children's device called mightier. So it comes with a little tablet and a heart rate monitor.

And as he's playing this game, if he gets frustrated in a game designed to be frustrating, right? It's really hard. It's impossible to play. And when you die and lose, you get really angry in his, you could see his heart rate go up. What happens is the screen starts turning red and it stops. And he can't play the game until he calms his heart rate down.

And so he's learning to find ways to calm himself down before he can continue to that next level. And the lesson he's learning there is you can't do hard things when you're in a heightened state of anxiety. But when you're calmed down again, you can actually do really hard things. And I think the same applies we're adults, right?

We're in very difficult situations. You're communicating something that's really tough to another person or to your audience. And if you have the heightened state of anxiety, you can't relay that message.

Pam Marmon: [00:18:20] I absolutely love this because it relates to organizational stress. So if we can shift into the organization for me, when I work with a client and I noticed that the organizational stress, they have too many change initiatives, the leaders are frazzled, they're disconnected.

They're not aligned. It creates a very stressful environment for the people. And by default, People won't be able to adapt to this change. it's impossible for us to want the best results when we have a stressed organization. And my goal working with leaders is to really help them understand how can you diffuse some of that tension and that stress and help people to be more relaxed, because as you said, based on the research that we know that when people are stressed out, they can't make good decisions.

They rush into things. They are not thorough. They make mistakes, it costs us things. It, we lose people as a result. So the ability to really calm an organization as a whole and be able to function more properly is so critical. And I think it does go back to mindfulness and we, as leaders need to be intentional, first of all, aware, and then intentional to make sure that we ourselves are in that state of being, but we're also transferring that into our teams and entire employees.

Daniel Hoang: [00:19:29] And so you're talking about, you're talking at the organizational level and I love talking to that cause it's very easy to talk individually. One on one, we can point to one person here's their state of mind. Here's where their stress level is at. And here's things we're talking about entire organization with.

It says a very abstract thing, but I think in your book, you have a number of tools, assessments, remind the readers here, I'm in one of the near book here, what tools would be relevant in this situation where you kind of want to get a pulse check or an assessment on the situation. 

Pam Marmon: [00:19:57] Yeah. So one of my favorite tools that I use is the readiness assessment and I apply it whenever I start a large initiative.

And typically what that is it's a set of interviews. I select the number of questions. Most of them are under 10. It's kind of the magic number. and I twos questions around leadership and culture and communication and potential resistance. How we communicate within this team, how do we embrace, Any changes that may be happening within the organization, any nuances that will be interesting for us to know.

and then I do the assessment and I, yeah. Interview people within the organization, different levels. just to hear different voices, and really understand, have a holistic view of where this organization is at. And only after that point, do I prescribe what the change, activities would be or how do we roll out a large initiative?

So it's all based on the culture. It's all based on the leaders, in the circumstances and the type of effort change effort that they're leading. But to me, that's the primary data point that I collect so that I can provide them the right solution rather than kind of a blanket statement of you got to do all of these change things.

some of them apply no matter what. So we know communication, obviously. No matter what, but there are other elements where we may want to go a little bit deeper. So for example, if alignment is, not there. We may actually put some things in place to make sure that the leaders are aligned. or if we have teams that are extremely stressed because there's a large volume of chain saturation, then we definitely want to make sure that there's, we just diffuse the change fatigue and that organization.

But to me, that's one of the things first critical things that I do with the team to help them understand, kind of have a reflective, time for them to really know this is where we're at and this is where we're going. And then we talk about how are we going to get there? 

Daniel Hoang: [00:21:36] And that's why I love your book so much, and I'm not making any commission for pushing copies of your book out here though, but I love it.

How pragmatic it is. There's just a set of basic, really simple tools that you explain in the book and you give some templates and links out to it as well. This really helps you just identify, let's be intentional in how we treat change and how we treat, transitions from one point to another point as a company, I want to dive back a little bit and get really abstract and very meta in this level now. A little personally about myself.

I was born in 1980. My parents were Vietnamese refugees. And so they were, considered the boat. People authored the Vietnam war. So they left on a fishing boat with probably 50 other people. They were lost at sea for seven days. So incredibly traumatic, right. During a war torn country. Right. And so during a very hard time for both countries, the US specifically a lot of people that died.

And I haven't shared this publicly yet, but. I hear murmurs of screams and bomb explosions yet I was a child, right? I was in vitro at the time during this one, when this event happened and this came about drink therapy. And so now I'm working through this concept called generational trauma, right? It's trauma pass on to me, as a child.

And I'm struggling with it because I'm figuring, Oh my gosh, I have all these anxiety and feelings, but I didn't, like, I have never seen a bomb go off before, literally for yet as an adult being now, I feel all of that. And I did probably when I was in vitro. And so I'm really to this intergenerational trauma.

And you talked about your childhood growing up in Bulgaria. Let's talk about that a little bit. And I want to go back and transfer this into, is there intergenerational trauma in an organization, especially one that's long lasting. 

Pam Marmon: [00:23:19] Wow. I'm getting goosebumps here. So growing up in Bulgaria during communism, we, there wasn't a lot of food, honestly go to the grocery stores and the grocery stores will be empty.

And you would just have, random things here and there, or the moment sugar came or flower came, there'll be lines out the door for people. And I remember that. and when I was a child, we had made a visit to the Czech Republic. And I remember walking into the Czech Republic store and their stores.

And I distinctly remember the smell of food, the way their store smelled. And to this day, to me, that's one of those, childhood memories. It's a smell. It's a sense that just brings the, it floods me with emotions. So fast forward to three, four months ago when COVID hit. And I went to the grocery stores and the shelves were empty and this flood of emotions came back where it was.

it was almost like I was almost in tears. I feel like I'm about to cry now and just feeling like it's happening again. And it's this trauma of, there's not enough. and where will the food come from and who will provide? And so I feel like there is definitely something to be said about childhood trauma and how we experience it and experience the world.

And even our appreciation for things we have or things we don't have. so yeah, like I, I'm so glad that you brought that up because I do think that there is something there and, if we don't call it out or we don't explore it, it becomes kind of that foundation that can rock us, rock our world in so many ways.

Daniel Hoang: [00:24:44] I want to segue that way, that to the organization, but just to keep things a little bit light hearted, cause that was a heavy topic. And I think you and I can probably dive even further there and get into really personal deep stories in that space. I'm looking over here around the corner over here and I have probably 200 rolls of toilet paper and this was pre COVID.

Right? I have, I've been stockpiling stuff and I didn't understand why am I doing this, because I come from, I just grew up with such a. Oh, in a, such a survival state, like just never having enough stock piling, weird stuff, like toilet paper. I'm never going to run out. And so when covert hit, I'm like, I'm good.

I got it. Hold up two letter rolls of paper. And I'm good if I feel pretty good, let's transition this to the organization because I've seen many organizations where I think there is some sort of organizational. Trauma in this weird fabric in it. It's a weird, it's a weird term to bring it for the organization, but I think you may have a very toxic leader or you may have a very toxic decision making process or something about the organization that's really toxic.

And it carries on forever. in perpetuity and you can unite, I think we've come in Congress in organizations. We were like, you guys are really weird and funky. Like, how do you, why do you do that? And it's because of some weird thing that happened many years ago and it continues. to that ripple through the organization.

Have you seen any of that? 

Pam Marmon: [00:26:01] I have, I've seen that, especially with leaders, who've been in an organization for a long time and they've done things the way they've done it. And so everybody got used to that leadership style. and then if there's a change, sometimes it's even difficult for the new leader who may have a very different leadership style to be accepted.

Because of this, this trauma that has been caused for decades, perhaps, even in some cases. so I definitely have seen it in it's almost like people got used to the abuse or leaders who've treated them poorly or whatever it may be, or even. I actually say more so with decision making. So leaders who don't trust their teams to make decisions, and have basically implemented strategies over the decade, for people not to rise up and take ownership, and then there's a switch and all of a sudden, go and make decisions.

Culturally, you've embedded certain behaviors and it's going to take a while for people to learn and how to make decisions to be good at making decisions. and then I also stayed where people don't even want to be accountable for those decisions if they do make them. so I definitely see that happening in organizations and, I hope leaders are sensitive to that because I do think that there's a way for us to be on how we lead and what we expect of people and how we treat people because.

Unintentionally. I think there are good leaders who unintentionally cause people harm and it's sad. and in some ways, we all may be at fault for that, unintentionally. And so the more we can reflect on ourselves and our own ability to lead ourselves and lead others, I think the more we can overcome some of those obstacles 

Daniel Hoang: [00:27:31] And I have a guest joining me probably in some point in the future, I'm thinking of the scenario.

Where she's coming in as a new leader and taking over from a former leader who was somewhat of a micromanager. And so decisions were all funneled through one place. And now she's a different style. her style is more open, distributed. A wisdom, the crowd, but people won't, people are unwilling to like decisions are unwilling to step out there because of all that was formed for over 20 years.

And now we're trying to change it. And I said, my advice and feedback to her was, you can't switch it overnight. Right? You can't just turn that switch overnight and expect some change. Right. This is going to take time because you're now undoing two decades worth of, I call it trauma, right? Like people I think were traumatized by the system.

Pam Marmon: [00:28:15] Yeah, people are afraid. They really are afraid. What will that mean for my job or for my status in the organization? and there's something to be said about incentives. So perhaps this leader can also consider what incentives can I put in place to encourage people to make decisions and own decisions.

and so that people can adapt a little bit to this new style of leadership. 

Daniel Hoang: [00:28:35] Pam, I've had a really great conversation. You today really enjoyed one. I enjoyed reading your book, especially when you launched and excited to see you become a bestselling author. So exciting. But to say that one more time, as we close out. Where can people find you?

Pam Marmon: [00:28:50] They can find you LinkedIn, feel free to connect with me there and also Marmon and they are MLN There's lots of free resources available to anybody, and I'm happy to connect with them that way as well. And I'm going to leave a link, a description to all the resources that Pam mentioned below.

Daniel Hoang: [00:29:06] And. Excited to have you kick off season two of my podcast, and we're going to have a great lineup coming up, so stick around and you can see some really great, amazing people. Just like Pam, thank you for joining Pam.

Thank you Danielle.

All right. Hey everyone. Thank you for joining the first episode of season two, there are four more episodes coming out.

So please subscribe, these plays, please. Definitely subscribe to whatever application you'd have. You're on Apple. Leave me a review. It's incredibly helpful. And please share, let someone know about this podcast that I continue to be working on season three. Right now, if you're listening to this and we're going to keep bumping up the production value a little bit more, get it to the point where you're going to get some really good information.

Come checking on the show, notes, links, envelope, and I definitely appreciate you for tuning in for me.