Ruth L. Schwartz: Recovering from Losses and Teaching Others How to Be Conscious Girlfriends

Read the full blog post and view photos.

This week on the Finding Fertile Ground podcast, I interview Ruth L. Schwartz, a writer, teacher, and consciousness-shifter. Ruth has published eight books and taught at six universities, and now she runs the Conscious Girlfriend Academy, the leading global program supporting lesbians and queer women to date wisely and love well.

Ruth was born to parents who were only 18 and 20 when she was born. Her mother had never even held a baby before and they didn’t know they had to burp a baby. They all had to learn together how to be parents. When her dad was off at a college class, she and her mom would be sat home, crying together.

Her father was brilliant, but his life was a cautionary tale for Ruth. He changed from a magical figure in her early childhood to mentally unstable, volatile, and addicted to speed when she was 10. As an emergency room physician, he was a thrill seeker until he lost his job and ended up on the streets addicted to heroin. He died earlier this year at the age of 79.

Ruth places a big emphasis on trying to make use of things that have happened to her in life.“You often hear that the wounds become the gifts, but also the gifts become the wounds.”

Ruth came out as a lesbian at the age of 20 when she was in college. “I love the complexity of being with women.”

Perhaps because she’s drawn to complexity, some of her relationships have been complex as well. When Ruth was 28, she fell in love with a Puerto Rican woman named Gladys whose kidneys failed a few years later.  “I donated my kidney to her because I loved her. It just seemed like the thing to do. I had two. She needed one.”

Then several years ago a long-time partner transitioned from female to male. They started Conscious Girlfriend together in 2013 to teach other queer women how to be conscious girlfriends. In the past 7-1/2 years, women from 22 countries have taken Ruth’s classes.

Her students who come out later in life are often floored at the degree of intensity that often exists in relationships with other women. Ruth teaches queer women how to navigate the complexities of relationships with women and how to date more wisely.

The Conscious Girlfriend Academy is a worldwide community of women who thought they were the only ones who had experienced these things. What Ruth enjoys the most is helping women find other likeminded, growth-oriented women.

Before Ruth founded Conscious Girlfriend, she wrote poetry, taught creative writing, worked as a health educator, and earned a PhD in transpersonal psychology. 

Ruth is inspired by the women she works with every day through the Conscious Girlfriend Academy. She told of a recent conversation with a woman who suppressed her own sexual identity because she lives in a conservative area in the south. Now she is meeting other women with similar stories, and she's getting to talk about her relationships in ways she has never had the chance to before. She describes it as grit and resilience all the time.

“I feel very fortunate that all the ways I've woven all accidents into my purpose have led me to this place.”

Next week I interview Julie Allen with Mary Rose Boutique NW and Mary Rose Foundation on Companies That Care. Julie’s created a clothing boutique where every woman can leave feeling beautiful, and her sister foundation raises money to pay for eating disorder treatment for girls who cannot afford it. The following week I’ll be back to Finding Fertile Ground with Melissa Pierce, who was widowed with two young children at a very young age.

fertilegroundcommunications.com

Transcript

 Marie

Hello Ruth, thank you so much for joining the fighting for Legrand Podcast.

 Ruth

Hi Marie, thank you so much for having me.

 Ruth

I'm really excited to be.

 Marie

Here, yeah, it's great to meet you. Can we start at the beginning? Have you tell our listeners about your life beginnings?

 Ruth

Sure, I moved around a lot as a kid. My parents were very young when they had me, they were 18 and 20. My mother was a very young 18 year old she.

 Ruth

Had never held a baby before. They handed me to her at the hospital and yeah, yeah. So I grew up fast yeah no I mean I think it's kind of a funny story but it's also a grit and resilience story right there. Because literally my mother tells stories about.

 Marie

Oh my goodness, wow.

 Marie

Yeah, it's like that.

 Marie

It's like that.

 Ruth

How my dad would be off at class he was in college and she would be sitting there beside me and my cradle and I would be.

 Ruth

I.

 Ruth

 Ruth

Crying and she would sit there and cry also because she didn't know what to do.

 Marie

I bet.

 Ruth

Yeah, my parents didn't even know that you were supposed to burp a baby and so they didn't burp me and so I got colic and so I cried a lot.

No.

 Ruth

And ah, yeah, and you know it's some. I mean, it's so interesting how we come into our lives and what we have to learn and that what we do with it so.

 Ruth

Oh

 Ruth

 Ruth

This is kind of a little microcosm snapshot of my life right there. Yeah yeah. And I think 'cause we moved so much just because.

 Marie

Yeah.

 Marie

 Ruth

Well first, my dad was in college and then in medical school and then internship and residency and then my mom started going to school. Also you know it. It's so interesting because I didn't know as a kid.

 Ruth

How unusual that was?

Yeah.

 Ruth

But I see now on the one hand it was pretty challenging to constantly have to adapt to new environments and make new friends.

 Ruth

And and on the other hand, it created a lot of resilience in.

 Marie

Me, were you an only child?

 Ruth

No. I have a sister who's 5 1/2 years younger.

 Marie

And.

 Marie

 Marie

And tell me a little bit more about your father. I understand that he.

 Marie

Died recently.

 Marie

You said that he had a drug problem.

 Ruth

So my dad was a brilliant boy and man. His life has been very much a challenging and ultimately a very cautionary tale for me because I'm a lot like him in many ways.

 Ruth

I was definitely a daddy's girl and he was one of those people who no one could tell him what.

 Ruth

To do, he was going to do it his way.

 Marie

Yeah.

 Ruth

And he kind of raised me to be like that too, except he didn't like it when my way was different from his side, but.

 Marie

Right, of course, so you buttheads, right, yeah.

Yeah.

 Ruth

You know, in my early childhood he was really a pretty magical figure and taught me to be very strong and it depended.

 Ruth

That always told me how smart I was and gave me wonderful gifts that I know now that a lot of kids are not lucky enough to get.

 Ruth

Their parents, but starting when I was 10.

 Ruth

And he became very mentally unstable and I.

 Ruth

I think that that was when he started when he first became addicted to speed.

 Marie

So the mental illness part came first before the drug addiction.

 Ruth

Yeah, it's hard to know because he didn't get treatment because he was better than normal people.

 Ruth

You know things that normal people would do would not be good enough for him. I believe he was bipolar and maybe to some extent he was self medicating with drugs and.

 Ruth

And.

 Ruth

 Ruth

He also really wanted to be Superman and.

 Ruth

He was a doctor, you know? So it kind of goes goes with the territory. He was an emergency medicine doctor in fact.

 Marie

Right?

 Marie

Oh my gosh, it may be a thrill seeker. A little bit.

 Ruth

Yeah, and you know he would work these crazy long shifts which they make doctors do and that year that I was ten, he had a very long commute.

 Ruth

So the story is that he started using speed as a way to just deal with, you know, the demands on him that he also got hepatitis from a needle.

 Ruth

Stick, I don't know how many of the stories are true, but this is the legend so he became addicted to drugs. Then when I was 10.

 Ruth

I don't even remember when I learned that. Maybe when I was in my 20s and I thought somehow that he had stopped at some point because he did become outwardly more stable to some extent. But yeah, recently he died at 79 and he was a heroin addict and.

Huh?

 Ruth

Huh?

 Ruth

 Ruth

He lived his last number of years on the street from where I sit. I would think he could have made other choices.

 Ruth

Certainly when his mother, my grandmother was still alive, she would have paid for him to go to any kind of treatment program.

 Ruth

From Pietro's not too. You know, it's such an interesting and obviously painful story of how are you know. You often hear that the the wounds become the gifts, but also the gifts become the wounds.

 Marie

Huh, had you been seeing him on a regular, somewhat regular basis before he died, or was that too difficult?

 Ruth

You know, I stopped being in contact with him around 2008. There were a few things that he did that just were beyond the pale for me.

 Marie

Yeah, my brother is in recovery.

 Marie

Yeah, he's been a recovery for a number of years. He didn't get sober till he was in his 40s, but even while he was sober he did some really hurtful things that I had to distance myself from him.

Oh

 Ruth

4.

 Marie

Now I'm I'm I'm at the point now where I can be around it, but I don't think our relationship will be the same ever. You know, even if you were sober, we still have that personality in some ways.

 Ruth

Haha.

 Ruth

Yeah, absolutely.

 Marie

Yeah, oh, I'm so sorry that that's must be such a painful memory for you.

 Marie

Did your parents get divorced or they stay together? Yeah.

 Ruth

Yeah, no. They split up when I was about 14. Yeah, you know, it's a big emphasis that I have in my life.

 Ruth

Is trying to make use of things.

 Marie

Yes.

 Ruth

As you know.

 Ruth

Obviously this is one of those coping strategies which starts as a defense, but it's useful.

 Ruth

And.

 Marie

I I can totally relate to that, yeah?

 Ruth

Huh, yeah, yeah. So I I think now because I am. I've become somebody who is a healer and a teacher of healing and consciousness and dating and relationship skills. I'm very aware that the story of my father has shock value. You know, I'm also a.

 Ruth

White middle class person Jewish. My father was a doctor. You know, I'm highly functional. I do a lot of cool things in the world. I published a number.

 Ruth

Books so people don't expect that I would have had a father was homeless and died on the streets. As a junkie, I mean it's something I calibrate around, like when there are new people in my life.

 Ruth

Like if I'm dating and somebody asks a casual question like, oh, where does your father live or you know, whatever you know, it's it's something that I have to handle with.

 Ruth

Care, but as in my professional life, I feel like it's something that I bring.

 Ruth

Out when I think it will be useful because it gets people's attention well.

 Marie

Especially if somebody makes a blanket statement about people who are either mentally ill or addicted to drugs, you know it can happen to anybody, obviously.

 Ruth

Yeah, there's that. And then you know some of the people that I work with also have had very dysfunctional people in their lives and I think it's really helpful for them to know that piece of my background. I think it just gets people's attention. It's like, you know, because we all have projections onto.

 Marie

Just.

 Marie

 Marie

Ah yeah.

 Ruth

People all the time and I'm sure people have projections onto me and maybe they think that.

 Ruth

I practice everything I teach with ease or you know that my life has been easy.

 Marie

Your life has been easy. You haven't had to struggle like they have.

 Marie

Yeah.

 Ruth

Exactly, of course, my father struggles are not my own, but I think there's a certain kind of credibility factor.

 Marie

Well, I'm sure you must have been deeply affected as a young person to have that happening in your life.

 Ruth

Yeah, definitely so.

 Marie

You were aware that he was having problems when you were ten, but you was he pretty good at hiding it at first.

 Ruth

How it really came out was that he became very, very emotionally volatile and my parents started having really hard.

 Marie

Yeah.

 Ruth

Verbal screaming fights which they had for a few years before they separated. I didn't know at the time that it was drugs.

 Marie

Oh

 Ruth

I had no idea it was more like well what happened to the father that used to be a relatively stable, safe person in my life.

Yeah.

 Marie

Ah, that must have been a shock.

 Ruth

Yeah it was. It was very confusing and painful. And yeah, we had moved again at that point that there was.

 Ruth

Is a lot you know in keeping with the theme of grit and resilience. My sister, who's 5 1/2 years younger for whatever combination of the genetic reasons or social reasons for that matter, or just coming later in the family system which she didn't get those early years with my dad.

 Ruth

When he was more stable, she has had enormous resilience in her life to be able to survive. What she has survived.

 Marie

Uh.

 Ruth

She is not somebody who has been able to live an outwardly stable life or productive life at all.

 Marie

I see, well, that's very sad.

 Marie

How about your mother? Is she still alive?

 Ruth

Yes, she is. She's raising my sister son who's now 16. She and her third husband legally adopted him. She is a more stable figure.

Huh?

 Marie

She survived all that. Yeah, let's move a little bit into your relationship journey and your coming out story.

 Ruth

Sorry yeah, so I came out as a lesbian when I was twenty. I was in college.

 Ruth

And I think I'm really in some sense, pretty pansexual, but I love the complexity of being with women. I love the depth and the complexity and the sense of freedom of getting to be more self defining, like not having as many cultural scripts written for me.

 Marie

Yeah.

 Marie

Interesting, that's an interesting way to put it, yeah?

 Marie

So Ed, was it something that it took you a while to realize you said that you had a boyfriend when you were 16.

 Ruth

Yeah, for a while my parents had a hard time accepting me as a lesbian because I did have lots of boyfriends before I came out and I've had a few short term since I came out. But since I was.

 Ruth

Short term boyfriend

 Ruth

 Ruth

20 I've been in love with fiber. Six women. Had you know other relationships with women? And I was in love with one man, you know, I skew pretty heavily toward women, but my my sexuality is is not black and white.

 Ruth

Not bad.

 Ruth

 Marie

Right?

 Ruth

One term that I like is homoromantic, that's nice.

 Ruth

I like it, but then I also think that my sexual orientation is complexity.

 Ruth

Yeah.

 Ruth

 Marie

Yeah.

 Ruth

I like people who are gender complex and the one man that I was.

 Ruth

Like

 Ruth

 Ruth

In love with as an adult, has this strong, masculine and strong feminine sides and and the women who I have drawn to tend to also have that.

 Marie

Oh

 Marie

So let's talk about your. Was it your first girlfriend that had the kidney?

 Ruth

No, she was not my first girlfriend, but she was very significant.

 Ruth

No.

 Ruth

 Ruth

I fell in love with her when I was 28 and her kidneys failed a few years later. She was a really amazing figure.

 Ruth

She was really a larger than life person and she had her own grit and resilience story for sure. She grew up in Puerto Rico and you know.

 Ruth

Didn't really know that there were any other lesbians.

 Ruth

She majored in psychology in college. She was the first person in her family to go to college, and in one of her psychology classes they taught about homosexuality as a mental disorder.

 Ruth

Oh dear, but she talked to the professor after class and told him that she had a friend who was a lesbian and.

 Ruth

Uh.

 Ruth

 Ruth

Yeah.

 Ruth

 Ruth

He said to her very kindly, that her friend should move to San Francisco.

 Ruth

She would find other people like her there.

 Marie

Well, isn't that interesting. He would teach that and then tell her that. Well, he was teaching from the DSM at the time.

 Marie

Wow Oh my gosh.

 Marie

Oh my gosh.

 Ruth

So that was the official word until it changed. I was just talking to one of my students yesterday. I run a program as you know, for lesbians and queer women teaching about dating and relationship skills.

 Ruth

And this woman was telling me she's in her 40s now and when she was in her 20s, she was struggling with her.

 Ruth

Sexual orientation and went to a therapist and the therapist said to.

 Ruth

Her well being gay is not a problem unless it's a problem for you, but of course it was a problem for her because she was afraid she was going to lose her job.

 Ruth

She worked for church. She had to keep her life secret. She had nobody she could talk to about her romantic life. So how was it not going to be a problem for her? You know? So so then.

Right?

I.

 Marie

Uh-huh

 Ruth

She spent many years trying to change herself and I hear stories like this all the time. My former partner, Gladys, I think, was really tremendously courageous. She just, you know, she had a few $100 in a guitar and she.

 Ruth

Left Puerto Rico for San Francisco. Being helped because she wanted to live her own life. But the problem was that she was diabetic.

 Ruth

That caught up with her. Her kidney started failing because of the diabetes because she hadn't managed it well, so I donated my kidney to her because I loved her. It just seemed like the thing to do.

 Ruth

You know I had two. She needed one.

 Marie

Wow, what a gift of love.

 Marie

Do that yeah, and it's great that you were able to do that as well. So after Gladys, there's another old fashioned name for you, Gladys and Ruth.

 Ruth

Uh.

 Ruth

Yeah, yeah.

 Marie

But interesting, I was thinking about the name Nancy because I have come to meet a number of Nancy's who are like curl 60 like 56.

 Marie

Do you think that was obviously a very popular name? That's why right, and so Gladys and Ruth is more like my parents generation. I don't usually meet people who are around my age named Gladys.

 Ruth

Really.

 Marie

Ruth, I love it.

 Ruth

Yeah.

 Ruth

I struggled with her name for a while. I thought it was such an ugly name, but I loved her so I got.

 Ruth

Over it.

 Marie

Yeah, so interesting. I have a friend who had a little girl a few years ago and named her Esther, which is another old fashioned baby just like these old fashioned names. Very interesting, so let's talk about it. What you're doing now about the conscious girlfriend Academy?

 Ruth

Oh yeah, it's very old actually, yeah.

 Marie

Tell us what led you to found that and what you do with that organization.

 Ruth

Yeah, so I found it it.

 Ruth

With a former partner of mine who a few years later transitioned from female to male, so we no longer work together on this project because the project is for lesbians and through women, and you know, he he is no longer a woman. You know, both of us had had very complex journeys to be able to have.

 Marie

Right, right?

 Ruth

A pretty healthy conscious relationship and we just kind of started it for fun. I'll talk about her as a her because she was at that time she.

 Ruth

She had a.

 Ruth

Lack of confidence around teaching things that she wasn't formally trained to do, and so at one point I teased her.

 Ruth

I said, well, where are your credentials for being my girlfriend? You know, where's your diploma from girlfriend, school and and then we thought, oh we should teach girlfriend school.

 Marie

Oh my gosh, what a what a fun way to start.

 Marie

Something.

 Ruth

Yeah, and then the.

 Ruth

URL For girlfriend School was not available so we came up with conscious girlfriend instead and it's really been quite a journey. We started it in late 2013. I had no idea what it was going to be.

 Ruth

Com.

 Ruth

 Ruth

It's only been what like 7 1/2 years I've had women from 22 countries take my classes.

 Marie

Wow.

 Marie

That's amazing.

 Ruth

There is such a hunger and need in the lesbian community, and you know, queer women, community women who fall in love with women. Or, you know, have relationships.

 Ruth

With women, whatever labels we use or don't use because relationships with women are.

 Ruth

Intense and nobody has taught us how to do this right?

 Ruth

Certainly nobody taught me, you know, my parents did not have a good, stable relationship, and even if they had, I think the degree of complexity and intensity that often exists between women.

 Marie

Right?

 Ruth

I hear this all the time from.

 Ruth

From students of mine who have come out later in life and maybe they're in their 40s or 50s or 60s and have had relationships, they are kind of floored because they feel this degree of intensity with women that they never felt before. But also it is so much more emotionally complex. You know, I think we just set off.

 Marie

So huh?

 Ruth

Each other triggers some women in general.

 Ruth

Once you have.

 Ruth

 Ruth

Just such a wide range of emotional, a big emotional palette.

 Ruth

Why?

 Ruth

 Ruth

Available to us.

 Marie

Yeah, I mean, I think we're more in touch with our emotions, so we're more likely to express them where men are more likely to keep it. Well, I have three sons, so this is.

 Marie

This is my home I live.

 Marie

A long time.

 Marie

 Ruth

Yeah huh?

 Marie

With for men, and my observation is that either they they have and and my husband this way.

 Marie

To that he has an outburst and that he feels like a sense of relief, but also the other thing I've observed is that boys in general they're, I mean, they're I don't think that there's this much drama with their friendships and things, you know.

 Marie

Yeah, there's a lot more teasing, but people don't take it as seriously. Things like that.

 Marie

Hello.

 Ruth

Yeah, well I observed and my former partner who transitioned to gender also observed in himself that within a few weeks of his starting to take testosterone he became a different person emotionally, yeah.

 Marie

Oh, fascinating, fascinating.

 Marie

So said, like the testosterone, help it.

 Ruth

It was really true.

 Ruth

Was really true.

 Ruth

 Ruth

Really, truly is hormonal, and I've read this, you know, in other accounts of people transitioning as well because as a.

 Ruth

Yes.

 Ruth

 Ruth

Moment was emotionally complex. You know, probably like you and me and most women and we have a range of different feelings throughout the day and he says that pretty soon after beginning testosterone data.

 Marie

Yeah.

 Marie

Right?

 Ruth

Emotional complexity kind of disappeared, wow?

 Ruth

And mostly he would just feel ***** or angry.

 Ruth

Oh my gosh is.

 Marie

That funny, I mean, that's the kind of information we have that we did. You know now that more people are transitioning, right? That exactly.

 Marie

Right?

 Marie

 Ruth

Yeah.

 Ruth

Yeah, so in, you know, in general I think women just have the experience we have and then just have the experience they have and not that many people have had many years of lived experience with one set of hormones and then the completely other experience. It's a pretty fascinating example of you we.

 Marie

Wow.

 Ruth

Yeah.

 Ruth

 Marie

It is.

 Ruth

Really are different and the difference so much of it. I mean, of course there's also how we get raised and all of that.

 Ruth

But with my former partners example, it really leads me to think so much of the difference is hormonal.

 Marie

Yeah, that makes sense. Many many years ago I was at a women's group with all of us except for one. We're straight then.

 Marie

And then my lesbian friend who what we often used to tease her because she's the one who's getting all the sex.

 Marie

As opposed to the married women and the she wasn't married at the time. The other thing that I found fascinating and I found this to be repeated as my lesbian circle has widened that.

 Marie

And this is a probably a gross stereotype, but that lesbians tend to stay in touch more with their ex's.

 Ruth

Oh absolutely, right so.

 Ruth

Oh

 Ruth

Yes, it is a part of lesbian culture. I mean not universal by anything but, but yeah, a lot of us do build chosen families with axis.

 Marie

Yes, right, right?

 Marie

Yes, I don't know if you're a Brandi Carlile fan.

 Ruth

A little bit, yeah.

 Ruth

A little bit.

 Marie

Yeah, so Brandi Carlile just wrote a new book and I was like watching interviews that she was having 'cause she's like my favorite.

 Marie

Sure, and she was talking about her very first girlfriend and she still has this great relationship with her very first girlfriend and her and she lives down the street from.

 Marie

Them just like.

 Marie

Them.

 Marie

Huh, yeah, that's totally different. I it's hard for me to imagine that because you know the few boyfriends that I had before I got married.

 Marie

Like, but I'm sure complicated too.

 Ruth

It can be absolutely. I mean, I think in some ways human relationships are just human relationships and then in other ways there are some really distinct features.

 Ruth

Of lesbian relationships.

 Ruth

And that's why what I teach is so needed because you know, just again, just yesterday this woman was telling me, you know, she's heard some of the stuff I teach before, but it's really different.

 Ruth

Having it in a lesbian context and she doesn't have to watch her pronouns. Yes, you know, certain of the things that that.

 Ruth

Often play out between women just aren't the case in heterosexual relationships like there's a joke that maybe you've heard from your lesbian friends. What does the lesbian bring on the second date? Do you know this one?

 Marie

I don't think so.

 Marie

I don't think.

 Ruth

So, so the answer is AU.

 Ruth

Well.

 Marie

That's funny. My commitment happens really quickly.

 Ruth

Oftentimes, yeah, yeah. And you know there is a reason why nobody jokes of like what is a straight couple bring or what is a gay male couple bring on the second date you know. Are you all like it doesn't? It doesn't tend to play out that way, yes?

 Marie

Right?

 Ruth

But oftentimes, with women we go into this bonding thing so fast.

 Marie

Yes, I mean I found that happen with my friendships.

 Marie

Uh-huh, but my friendships with women are so much deeper than my husband or my sons can get to with their male friends.

 Ruth

Right, right? I hear that from my straight friends all the time and that's kind of why I say my sexual orientation is complexity because I think you know I'm OK with men's bodies. But I crave that that extra degree of intimacy.

 Ruth

And I think.

 Marie

Right, yeah?

 Ruth

Some some straight women are like, ah, keep me away from that extra degree of intensity like.

 Ruth

You know straight women joke about men all the time that they're kind of simple and dumb and.

 Marie

Uh.

 Marie

Uh.

 Ruth

You know, and so it's like there's an ease in having that kind of relationship or there's a poverty, or both, you know.

 Ruth

No, or there's a wealth you know. Then you can go and have the greater emotional intimacy with your friends, but without having to navigate the complexities of sexuality there.

 Ruth

Right?

 Ruth

 Marie

Uh, it depends on your mood. That's what I find I relish. I savor my female friendships. I would be lost without them. And it's interesting because one of the.

 Ruth

Uh-huh

 Marie

Women of my women's group from so many years ago was actually living with another other women. I think maybe more than one over the course of several years and then ended up marrying a man.

 Marie

And I remember her saying that she actually really appreciates the yin Yang of the female male relationship, and for probably for some of the reasons that you're talking about that, that was what she needed in her life instead of all that intensity, you know. So yeah, it's it's interesting to think about it that way.

 Ruth

Huh?

 Ruth

Is it?

 Marie

I'm sure the relationships are very different, yeah?

 Ruth

Yeah yeah, and I think you know I. I mean, I've heard that kind of.

 Ruth

Thing also from other women that were more sexually fluid who decide that relationships with women are just too complex or hard for them. But of course many lesbians are are not really sexually fluid. They're really just assisted in women, right?

 Ruth

Absolutely or or like in my case, just so much more likely to fall in love with women that we we really have to find ways of working it out because we don't have another satisfying alternative, right?

 Marie

Yeah.

 Marie

Yes.

 Marie

Is that where you teach us?

 Marie

Part of them is how to navigate the the complexities, yeah?

 Ruth

Absolutely yeah. And how to date more wisely because I think most of us tend and I've done this so many times in my own life date according to chemistry and in not just physical chemistry but just whatever that mysterious thing is that happens when you meet somebody and just your your whole.

 Marie

Hmm.

 Ruth

Being starts opening up to them you.

 Marie

Teach women on how to.

 Ruth

How to not do that?

 Ruth

How did not?

 Ruth

Did not.

 Marie

I do that. I was gonna say hey, really.

 Ruth

I did it.

 Ruth

People do that automatically and and and so because we we tend to do that.

 Marie

Yes, OK, got it.

 Ruth

And then lesbians tend to bond so quickly. It's like Oh my God, I only known you for a few hours, but I can just tell you're the person I've been looking for my whole life.

 Ruth

I know that none of the issues that I've had with other people are going to come up with you because it feels.

 Ruth

So right with you, you.

 Ruth

Know and then we we go really deeply in.

 Ruth

Uh.

 Ruth

 Ruth

And whether we move in together or get engaged? Or you know, even get married or just get you know extremely emotionally involved. Very quickly. I call it bonding with lesbian super glue.

 Ruth

We do it before we really know the other person, and we often don't know even that much about ourselves or what will really constitute compatibility for us.

 Marie

Huh?

 Ruth

What we really need and are looking for in a relationship because nobody ever handed us the menu. Nobody ever said like you get to think about.

 Ruth

You know how? How are things going to work for you? So most of us haven't thought about that, and so we just meet somebody.

 Marie

Never.

 Ruth

Feel all this desire and chemistry. Dive right in and then find out we dove into a swimming pool that didn't have any water in it.

 Marie

Right?

 Ruth

And lots of women have had that experience over and over, and and I've had it more than a few times.

 Ruth

Which is part of why I.

Quiet.

 Ruth

You know, learned what I know now, not that I practice it perfectly in my life, but I do know a lot about it.

 Ruth

And that's why I teach it, because it really it's so illuminating for so many women just to realize oh, this isn't just me.

 Marie

Sure.

 Ruth

This is a.

 Ruth

Phenomena, and there are ways to do it differently.

 Marie

Yeah.

 Marie

There's so much power in teaching people what you had to learn yourself.

 Ruth

Absolutely yeah.

 Marie

Yeah.

 Marie

 Ruth

And I the fascinating thing is that I do hear similar stories from women all over the world. So it's it's not just a specifically American cultural phenomenon, it.

 Marie

Etc.

 Ruth

It seems to be what often happens between.

 Ruth

Women romantically involved with each other.

 Ruth

Right?

 Ruth

 Marie

Wow, so interesting. So are you like the only organization that offers these types of services?

 Ruth

One of the few.

 Ruth

Yeah, I don't know of anybody else who's doing quite what I'm doing. Certainly there are some other lesbian coaches and therapists that are teaching.

 Ruth

But yeah, the conscious girlfriend Academy has.

 Ruth

Created a really worldwide community and that's the other cool thing about it for me is that it's not just me and what I teach.

 Ruth

And.

 Ruth

 Ruth

Although you know I teach a lot of classes on a lot of topics, but it's also women finding each other and like minded.

 Ruth

Growth oriented.

 Ruth

Women who are involved with women and having a community where they get to talk about these things and hold each other accountable and laugh and cry.

 Ruth

And you know, do it differently and it's it's really such a beautiful thing to be part of and to witness.

 Marie

Now what did you do before this you've taught? I know you've written some books you've taught.

 Marie

What was your professional training I?

 Ruth

Have an MFA in creative writing that I got right after college and but then I moved to San Francisco as a young lesbian and started working at the San Francisco AIDS Foundation and kind of de facto became a health educator. And because I always gradually gravitated.

 Marie

Oops.

 Ruth

For teaching, then after I got my first book of poems published, I got an academic teaching job teaching, creative writing, and so I did that for a number of years.

 Marie

Interesting.

 Ruth

But then I missed being more closely involved. Kind of with the nitty gritty of peoples lives. So then I I went back and got my PhD in transpersonal psychology and studied hypnotherapy and shamanic work. And, you know, went much more on the transformational tool path.

 Marie

Wow, so all of that really.

 Marie

Leads you up to what you're doing now. I mean, it really prepped you for this, doesn't it?

 Ruth

Thank you.

 Ruth

Thank.

 Marie

Totally yeah. What an interesting life you've LED.

 Marie

Yeah.

 Marie

 Ruth

Thank you and you too thank.

 Marie

Thank you, thank you and and the other thing I wanted to just touch on is I know personally I know a lot more people who are transitioning or who have transitioned and.

 Marie

You thank you.

 Marie

 Marie

That's another area that I I don't know whether you offer assistance to people whose partners are transitioning, But that's another wow.

 Marie

What I mean, what a shock that must have been for you. 'cause you fell in love with a woman.

 Marie

Not everybody is willing to take that journey with their partner because they're not may not be attracted to that gender.

 Ruth

Yeah, yeah, that absolutely does happen for people.

 Ruth

I mean in my case, because as I said, I feel like in some ways my sexual orientation is complexity.

 Ruth

The woman that I fell in love with had a strongly masculine side, and so her deciding that she wanted to have the male on the outside and the female on the inside rather than vice versa.

 Ruth

Get out.

 Ruth

 Ruth

Wasn't a problem for me per Southeast, but what was challenging for me was that she became a different being as she transitioned. You know, through the testosterone as we've talked about, and as that being emerged.

 Marie

Uh-huh

 Marie

Yeah.

 Ruth

He is a different person and he had different needs and there were ways that we became less compatible. I think on both sides as he became that other person and my attraction to him was still there. Yeah, he just got engaged today to his partner so I.

See here.

 Ruth

Uh.

 Ruth

 Marie

Oh, that's wonderful.

 Ruth

Yeah, I'm very happy for him and we just taught a class together last weekend, so we are still connected and in answer to your question, I certainly would work with people who wanted support around their partners transition.

 Marie

Oh nice.

 Ruth

That hasn't actually happened. I mean, I haven't had anybody come to me for that, but he has now started.

 Ruth

Yes.

 Ruth

 Ruth

His name is Max Pearl and he has started an organization called Trans Resilience Through which he teaches a lot of the same tools that he and I originally developed in conscious girlfriend like.

 Marie

Great.

 Ruth

A lot of tools around being conscious and compassionate and curious.

 Ruth

Self loving, aware of triggers and to self regulate and communication tools and now partner selection all that kind of thing which I still teach through conscious girlfriend.

 Ruth

He now teaches through towns resilience, so he'd be a great referral for people who are seeking that who are.

 Ruth

Either transitioning themselves.

 Ruth

Or, you know, connected to someone who is.

 Marie

There was a question that was posed recently at a dinner party.

 Marie

I was at that was an outdoor, socially distanced dinner party and the question was what is a little regret you have in your life.

 Marie

I thought that was a really interesting way to think about it, like not a big regret, but a little regrets like something that you might might do differently if she.

 Marie

Could do it over again.

 Ruth

Yeah, and so I think a lot about my jeans and my temperament. You know some of my temperament and personality is genetic. Maybe a lot of it. You know, as is true for all of us.

 Ruth

And so going back to my father and the cautionary tale from him, I do have in many ways a similar personality to his.

 Ruth

I am a risk taker. I am bold, I am impetuous. I am impulsive. You know. Oftentimes, people would probably say nobody can tell me what to do I.

 Marie

Right?

 Ruth

And I I love that about myself and I have seen how my father destroyed himself with that and and so that's one of the big things that I am.

 Ruth

I try to temper it myself like I will always be a risk taker, but I try to look at can I take better advised risks?

 Ruth

Do I have to take every risk every time you know I've taken some big financial risks in my life? Fortunately, I've come out ahead more of the time than behind. I've taken some.

 Ruth

Big emotional and romantic risks in my life and I'm still here to talk about it. And I teach from it on the thing that I was talking to you about about so many women doing of just falling in love really fast and then having really high stakes relationship.

 Ruth

To talk about it.

 Ruth

 Ruth

You know, I've certainly done the thing that I.

 Ruth

That ended up being really shattered. I am trying to become more of my own student around that.

 Ruth

Because I I hear from people that I teach that you know they're not doing it anymore, 'cause they learned from me. There was a different possibility. So it's like, am I gonna change that too?

 Ruth

Or not.

 Ruth

 Marie

Yeah, now you're under pressure to walk your talk.

 Ruth

Well, you know I.

 Ruth

Think I walk my talk anyway, what's most important to me in my talk is telling people that there are alternatives if they have choices and then sometimes I feel like OK. I see that this is not. I'm going really fast.

Yeah.

 Ruth

Sure, and you know I have a lot of skills so I can drive 150 miles an.

 Ruth

Hour rather than having to go 75 like other people or 70.

 Marie

Yeah.

 Marie

Yes.

 Ruth

Or 65 and it's so like I'm based.

 Ruth

Basically, a resilient enough person coming back to your theme to be able to get away with that. But I also wonder, I think there are a lot of different stories that any of us can can choose to live out and so on.

 Ruth

The heels of my most recent breakup. That's that's why this is on my mind.

 Marie

A lot, yeah, I've often.

 Marie

Wondered what my life would be like if I.

 Marie

Entered things a little bit more slowly as well.

 Ruth

Yeah.

 Ruth

OK, so you and our salsas finish them.

 Ruth

Rather.

 Ruth

 Marie

Yes, yes. I mean we're just like made decisions.

 Marie

All it took a little bit more time before I jumped in with both feet first. You know, in my case relationship wise, my husband took a lot longer to realize that I was the one.

 Marie

So we were together for three years before we got engaged. So he's from Britain and I'm from the USA and we met in Japan, so everything was complicated and I ended up staying in Japan for two extra years because I knew he was the one and it took him forever to realize that about me, not forever. I mean, he was all in while.

 Ruth

Ah.

 Ruth

Huh?

 Marie

We were dating but he he was much more reluctant to commit. So as men often are right, yes.

 Ruth

Ah yes, exactly well, and that's a blessing and a curse. I mean that saved you from the, you know, on the second date phenomenon, but but it it sounds like maybe it was painful or frustrating.

 Marie

No.

 Marie

Fries?

 Marie

Yes.

 Marie

I wouldn't even say that it was painful or frustrating, but I felt like I did not want him to be backed into anything that he didn't want to be.

 Marie

Our relationship's funny because we both left Japan.

 Marie

And we went travelling through Asia for three months and I bought a ticket from, you know, throughout Asia and then going back to Oregon and he bought a ticket that took him back to the to the UK and so there was like this elephant between us and we had this incredible trip and it wasn't till our final country India where I was thinking like.

 Marie

Oh my God, what I was waiting for him to propose, mostly because even though I'm a feminist, I wanted him to.

 Ruth

I I was I was wondering about that like the new proposed it was.

 Marie

Yeah, because.

 Marie

All about, I mean, I knew before he did so I didn't. You know, I wanted him to make the first move because I wanted him to.

 Marie

I wanted to be sure that he was in on it, right? So that's why he was running out of time.

Yes.

 Marie

So I was going to propose if he didn't so funny. Now I often tease me about that and I was like, Oh my God, it took you forever. But and there are other things.

 Marie

Where he's much more deliberative.

 Marie

But we have bought 2 houses like on the spot, you know. So we well, we have made decisions pretty quickly and they panned out OK, but other things like you know, starting a project for a client without really asking all the questions that I could.

 Marie

Probably you know little things like that I could benefit from slowing down a little bit more 'cause I do really, I move quickly.

 Marie

I get a lot done, but I move quickly.

Yeah.

 Marie

So, so I'm sure I could benefit from slowing down too.

 Ruth

Sounds like that's also your gift, and obviously, you're. You're an entrepreneur as I am, and I heard recently this in this entrepreneur training that entrepreneurs are people who have perceptual distortions.

 Marie

It is your right? Yes yes yes.

 Ruth

We would not become entrepreneurs if we didn't, you know, like if we.

 Ruth

New upfront how hard things were going.

 Ruth

To be, you wouldn't do them why most people don't do them and.

 Ruth

Oh

 Ruth

 Ruth

I thought wow.

 Ruth

Thought wow.

 Ruth

 Ruth

I thought wow, that is so true and that explains a lot about my life.

 Ruth

Even beyond my work.

 Marie

Ah.

 Marie

 Marie

Interesting. Well, it did take me awhile to become an entrepreneur. So I mean I was in the corporate. I was in the corporate world for 30 years so.

 Ruth

Fast.

 Marie

It wasn't like I jumped into that and I and I and I did it out of necessity, and then it took me a while to come around to it.

 Marie

So that's one example in my life where it took me a while. But that's really yeah, very interesting to think of.

 Marie

My life.

 Marie

 Marie

About that, yeah, maybe all in another month. I'll drop you an email and say Ruth. How are you doing? I'm slowing down, we can remind each other.

 Ruth

Ah yeah.

 Marie

That might not be a bad.

 Ruth

Well, it may.

 Ruth

Well, it.

 Ruth

Thing also, but it might also just be.

 Ruth

Your death done mind these things that way.

 Marie

It is, yeah, it's like it's like multitasking. I've I've heard I've read all the articles that you shouldn't multitask and I've just basically finally given up on it and realized I thrive when I multi task.

 Marie

I thrive when I.

 Marie

 Marie

I guess I little oddity.

 Ruth

So you you probably.

 Ruth

Have a brain that needs a lot of stimulation you. Yeah yeah, some it it's. I don't really identify as having a DD, although I might test for it.

 Marie

Probably yeah.

 Marie

Probably.

 Marie

Yeah, there may be some of that. There may be some of. I mean I like fried.

 Ruth

I don't know, I you know?

 Marie

Yeah, that I feel like variety, you know, ever since I was a kid I've been able to do several things I can't do as much.

 Marie

At the same time as I used to be able to do when I was younger.

 Marie

But like for one example is when we're watching a show or something. I can be writing a thank you card while I'm watching a show. You know, things like that that my husband cannot do that.

 Ruth

Huh?

 Ruth

Yeah, I understand what you're what you're talking about.

 Marie

Uh, yeah. Supposedly you're not as effective at either one. You know, I get that too, but for me it's like I I can't help it this way.

 Marie

Yeah, so so back to my. I have a just a couple of final questions. Have you read or watched anything recently that has inspired you that you would like to recommend to people?

 Marie

Well I just.

 Marie

Well I just.

 Marie

 Ruth

Was thinking of a poem that I wanted to bring up, which is by Wendell Berry and it's called the Sycamore and the line that was coming to me.

 Marie

Oh, I don't Barry.

 Ruth

It was about this great tree that has woven all accidents into its purpose.

 Marie

Oh, that's beautiful.

 Ruth

And that's what I was thinking as you and I were talking. But just like how these these things that are either random or devasted.

 Ruth

Meeting how, how both you and I have woven them into our purpose.

 Marie

Yeah, I love that. That's beautiful.

 Ruth

And sycamores are incredible because they can be hollowed out on the inside by fire and and yet still alive.

 Ruth

So that's the that's the metaphor of the poem. It's easy to find online if people want to Google.

 Marie

That is beautiful. That reminds me, I just a friend shared a poem just a couple days ago by Khalil Gibran about it's called Fear.

 Marie

Is that right? It's called fear him at the river flowing into the ocean. Have you heard that one oh so beautiful? I'll send it to you 'cause it's really inspiring me. And basically you know and.

 Ruth

Who else I have?

 Marie

I I'm not very good at memorizing poems, but the the idea is that the river has fear.

 Marie

But is being drawn to the ocean, and when and when it goes into the ocean, it can release its fear.

 Ruth

Right?

 Marie

It's really beautiful and very relevant for those of us who are trying to create new things. You know taking those risks.

 Ruth

It's really cool.

 Ruth

Cool.

 Ruth

Mm-hmm

 Marie

So yeah, so my final question is, is there a story of grit and resilience? That's been an inspiration for you and your life.

 Ruth

Oh my God there are.

 Ruth

So I.

 Ruth

Yeah.

 Ruth

 Marie

Know I know well.

 Ruth

I think the one yes that I heard yesterday from one of my students is the one that comes to mind.

 Ruth

Because I heard it yesterday. This person, who in her 20s she was having relationships with women, but she was working for a church and went to this therapist who.

 Ruth

Well, it's you know if it's a problem for you, it's a problem to be gay. So she talked about how literally she gave herself a talking to, and she said to herself, you have to stop this.

 Ruth

You have to grow up. You just have to get women out of your system and you know, find a man 'cause you want to have a child and she did find a man and she said you know the good thing about our relationship.

 Ruth

'cause we hardly ever had sex.

 Marie

You know, right?

 Ruth

And.

 Ruth

And he was a decent man, and she has a child. And then these years later, she realized that that this was who she was, that women were who she loved, and fell in love with.

 Ruth

And you know she has reclaimed that, and she actually just ended a relationship with a woman because that woman was still.

 Ruth

So deeply in the closet and she said, I I can't be this person dirty little secret anymore. I was so moved.

 Marie

Sure.

 Ruth

We were both moved to tears as she was telling this story. You know, and now that she found the Academy, the Conscious girlfriend Academy.

 Marie

Oh, that's beautiful.

 Ruth

Yeah.

 Ruth

 Ruth

She's meeting all these other women with similar stories, and she's getting to talk about her relationships and you know both her struggles and her joys with women in a way that she never has gotten to 'cause she lives in the South. She lives in a conservative area. I get.

 Ruth

I get to hear these up.

 Ruth

Raise up.

 Ruth

 Ruth

Grit and resilience literally all the time. It's so moving to me 'cause there's the pain of it. And then there's on the other side. Just everybody who finds their way into my program.

 Marie

Yes.

 Marie

Yes.

 Ruth

Has had a journey, you know we all have our journeys, but then you know, having to have a journey around claiming your sexual orientation on top of the other journeys.

 Marie

And doing it by yourself too must be such an honor to to hold those stories and to help people like that.

 Ruth

Uh-huh

 Ruth

Yeah, it really is. I feel very fortunate that all the.

 Ruth

You know the ways I've woven all accidents into my purpose have have have led me to this place.

 Marie

Yes, yes.

 Marie

That's amazing, well and and that is a whole another topic that we don't have time for. Which is the way that the the church sends these messages to to queer folks.

 Marie

Whole other issue so thank you so much. Mary thank you Ruth.

 Ruth

Marie for the beautiful work that you're doing. I love the topic of your podcast so much and I loved reading your story.

 Ruth

You know just the orientation of the kinds of people that you have, and just what you're doing in the world is really inspiring.

 Marie

Thank you so much. It's been an honor for me and uh.

 Marie

A joy in the last year, totally so yeah.

 Ruth

Yeah, I feel like we've. We've sat here and spent the last hour talking about me and I would.

 Ruth

Totally love to spend the next time talking about you 'cause.

 Marie

Oh

Ha.

 Marie

Yeah, anytime I'd be happy to have another chat with you. We won't record it this time.

 Marie

That'll be really good, right? Yeah, yeah.

 Marie

Yeah, it's just been a pleasure meeting you and I hope I'll connect with you on social and look forward to getting to know more about you in the future.

 Ruth

OK, wonderful, thank you so much.

 Marie

Thank you Ruth.

Audio file

Ruth.wav

Transcript

00:00:00 Marie

Hello Ruth, thank you so much for joining the fighting for Legrand Podcast.

00:00:04 Ruth

Hi Marie, thank you so much for having me.

00:00:06 Ruth

I'm really excited to be.

00:00:07 Marie

Here, yeah, it's great to meet you. Can we start at the beginning? Have you tell our listeners about your life beginnings?

00:00:14 Ruth

Sure, I moved around a lot as a kid. My parents were very young when they had me, they were 18 and 20. My mother was a very young 18 year old she.

00:00:24 Ruth

Had never held a baby before. They handed me to her at the hospital and yeah, yeah. So I grew up fast yeah no I mean I think it's kind of a funny story but it's also a grit and resilience story right there. Because literally my mother tells stories about.

00:00:29 Marie

Oh my goodness, wow.

00:00:34 Marie

Yeah, it's like that.

00:00:34 Marie

It's like that.

00:00:44 Ruth

How my dad would be off at class he was in college and she would be sitting there beside me and my cradle and I would be.

00:00:49 Ruth

I.

00:00:49 Ruth

00:00:50 Ruth

Crying and she would sit there and cry also because she didn't know what to do.

00:00:55 Marie

I bet.

00:00:56 Ruth

Yeah, my parents didn't even know that you were supposed to burp a baby and so they didn't burp me and so I got colic and so I cried a lot.

00:01:00

No.

00:01:04 Ruth

And ah, yeah, and you know it's some. I mean, it's so interesting how we come into our lives and what we have to learn and that what we do with it so.

00:01:04 Ruth

Oh

00:01:04 Ruth

00:01:14 Ruth

This is kind of a little microcosm snapshot of my life right there. Yeah yeah. And I think 'cause we moved so much just because.

00:01:18 Marie

Yeah.

00:01:18 Marie

00:01:22 Ruth

Well first, my dad was in college and then in medical school and then internship and residency and then my mom started going to school. Also you know it. It's so interesting because I didn't know as a kid.

00:01:34 Ruth

How unusual that was?

00:01:34

Yeah.

00:01:36 Ruth

But I see now on the one hand it was pretty challenging to constantly have to adapt to new environments and make new friends.

00:01:44 Ruth

And and on the other hand, it created a lot of resilience in.

00:01:47 Marie

Me, were you an only child?

00:01:49 Ruth

No. I have a sister who's 5 1/2 years younger.

00:01:52 Marie

And.

00:01:52 Marie

00:01:52 Marie

And tell me a little bit more about your father. I understand that he.

00:01:56 Marie

Died recently.

00:01:57 Marie

You said that he had a drug problem.

00:01:59 Ruth

So my dad was a brilliant boy and man. His life has been very much a challenging and ultimately a very cautionary tale for me because I'm a lot like him in many ways.

00:02:12 Ruth

I was definitely a daddy's girl and he was one of those people who no one could tell him what.

00:02:18 Ruth

To do, he was going to do it his way.

00:02:19 Marie

Yeah.

00:02:21 Ruth

And he kind of raised me to be like that too, except he didn't like it when my way was different from his side, but.

00:02:27 Marie

Right, of course, so you buttheads, right, yeah.

00:02:30

Yeah.

00:02:30

00:02:30 Ruth

You know, in my early childhood he was really a pretty magical figure and taught me to be very strong and it depended.

00:02:38 Ruth

That always told me how smart I was and gave me wonderful gifts that I know now that a lot of kids are not lucky enough to get.

00:02:47 Ruth

Their parents, but starting when I was 10.

00:02:50 Ruth

And he became very mentally unstable and I.

00:02:55 Ruth

I think that that was when he started when he first became addicted to speed.

00:03:00 Marie

So the mental illness part came first before the drug addiction.

00:03:04 Ruth

Yeah, it's hard to know because he didn't get treatment because he was better than normal people.

00:03:10 Ruth

You know things that normal people would do would not be good enough for him. I believe he was bipolar and maybe to some extent he was self medicating with drugs and.

00:03:16 Ruth

And.

00:03:16 Ruth

00:03:20 Ruth

He also really wanted to be Superman and.

00:03:24 Ruth

He was a doctor, you know? So it kind of goes goes with the territory. He was an emergency medicine doctor in fact.

00:03:25 Marie

Right?

00:03:30 Marie

Oh my gosh, it may be a thrill seeker. A little bit.

00:03:33 Ruth

Yeah, and you know he would work these crazy long shifts which they make doctors do and that year that I was ten, he had a very long commute.

00:03:42 Ruth

So the story is that he started using speed as a way to just deal with, you know, the demands on him that he also got hepatitis from a needle.

00:03:50 Ruth

Stick, I don't know how many of the stories are true, but this is the legend so he became addicted to drugs. Then when I was 10.

00:03:58 Ruth

I don't even remember when I learned that. Maybe when I was in my 20s and I thought somehow that he had stopped at some point because he did become outwardly more stable to some extent. But yeah, recently he died at 79 and he was a heroin addict and.

00:04:09

Huh?

00:04:17 Ruth

Huh?

00:04:17 Ruth

00:04:18 Ruth

He lived his last number of years on the street from where I sit. I would think he could have made other choices.

00:04:27 Ruth

Certainly when his mother, my grandmother was still alive, she would have paid for him to go to any kind of treatment program.

00:04:34 Ruth

From Pietro's not too. You know, it's such an interesting and obviously painful story of how are you know. You often hear that the the wounds become the gifts, but also the gifts become the wounds.

00:04:47 Marie

Huh, had you been seeing him on a regular, somewhat regular basis before he died, or was that too difficult?

00:04:53 Ruth

You know, I stopped being in contact with him around 2008. There were a few things that he did that just were beyond the pale for me.

00:05:05 Marie

Yeah, my brother is in recovery.

00:05:07 Marie

Yeah, he's been a recovery for a number of years. He didn't get sober till he was in his 40s, but even while he was sober he did some really hurtful things that I had to distance myself from him.

00:05:11

Oh

00:05:15 Ruth

4.

00:05:17 Marie

Now I'm I'm I'm at the point now where I can be around it, but I don't think our relationship will be the same ever. You know, even if you were sober, we still have that personality in some ways.

00:05:21 Ruth

Haha.

00:05:27 Ruth

Yeah, absolutely.

00:05:30 Marie

Yeah, oh, I'm so sorry that that's must be such a painful memory for you.

00:05:34 Marie

Did your parents get divorced or they stay together? Yeah.

00:05:37 Ruth

Yeah, no. They split up when I was about 14. Yeah, you know, it's a big emphasis that I have in my life.

00:05:46 Ruth

Is trying to make use of things.

00:05:49 Marie

Yes.

00:05:49 Ruth

As you know.

00:05:50 Ruth

Obviously this is one of those coping strategies which starts as a defense, but it's useful.

00:05:56 Ruth

And.

00:05:56 Marie

I I can totally relate to that, yeah?

00:05:58 Ruth

Huh, yeah, yeah. So I I think now because I am. I've become somebody who is a healer and a teacher of healing and consciousness and dating and relationship skills. I'm very aware that the story of my father has shock value. You know, I'm also a.

00:06:18 Ruth

White middle class person Jewish. My father was a doctor. You know, I'm highly functional. I do a lot of cool things in the world. I published a number.

00:06:26 Ruth

Books so people don't expect that I would have had a father was homeless and died on the streets. As a junkie, I mean it's something I calibrate around, like when there are new people in my life.

00:06:37 Ruth

Like if I'm dating and somebody asks a casual question like, oh, where does your father live or you know, whatever you know, it's it's something that I have to handle with.

00:06:46 Ruth

Care, but as in my professional life, I feel like it's something that I bring.

00:06:52 Ruth

Out when I think it will be useful because it gets people's attention well.

00:06:57 Marie

Especially if somebody makes a blanket statement about people who are either mentally ill or addicted to drugs, you know it can happen to anybody, obviously.

00:07:05 Ruth

Yeah, there's that. And then you know some of the people that I work with also have had very dysfunctional people in their lives and I think it's really helpful for them to know that piece of my background. I think it just gets people's attention. It's like, you know, because we all have projections onto.

00:07:19 Marie

Just.

00:07:19 Marie

00:07:21 Marie

Ah yeah.

00:07:25 Ruth

People all the time and I'm sure people have projections onto me and maybe they think that.

00:07:30 Ruth

I practice everything I teach with ease or you know that my life has been easy.

00:07:34 Marie

Your life has been easy. You haven't had to struggle like they have.

00:07:37 Marie

Yeah.

00:07:38 Ruth

Exactly, of course, my father struggles are not my own, but I think there's a certain kind of credibility factor.

00:07:45 Marie

Well, I'm sure you must have been deeply affected as a young person to have that happening in your life.

00:07:50 Ruth

Yeah, definitely so.

00:07:51 Marie

You were aware that he was having problems when you were ten, but you was he pretty good at hiding it at first.

00:07:56 Ruth

How it really came out was that he became very, very emotionally volatile and my parents started having really hard.

00:08:02 Marie

Yeah.

00:08:05 Ruth

Verbal screaming fights which they had for a few years before they separated. I didn't know at the time that it was drugs.

00:08:07 Marie

Oh

00:08:12 Ruth

I had no idea it was more like well what happened to the father that used to be a relatively stable, safe person in my life.

00:08:13

Yeah.

00:08:19 Marie

Ah, that must have been a shock.

00:08:22 Ruth

Yeah it was. It was very confusing and painful. And yeah, we had moved again at that point that there was.

00:08:29 Ruth

Is a lot you know in keeping with the theme of grit and resilience. My sister, who's 5 1/2 years younger for whatever combination of the genetic reasons or social reasons for that matter, or just coming later in the family system which she didn't get those early years with my dad.

00:08:50 Ruth

When he was more stable, she has had enormous resilience in her life to be able to survive. What she has survived.

00:08:57 Marie

Uh.

00:08:57 Ruth

She is not somebody who has been able to live an outwardly stable life or productive life at all.

00:09:03 Marie

I see, well, that's very sad.

00:09:06 Marie

How about your mother? Is she still alive?

00:09:08 Ruth

Yes, she is. She's raising my sister son who's now 16. She and her third husband legally adopted him. She is a more stable figure.

00:09:14

Huh?

00:09:19 Marie

She survived all that. Yeah, let's move a little bit into your relationship journey and your coming out story.

00:09:24 Ruth

Sorry yeah, so I came out as a lesbian when I was twenty. I was in college.

00:09:30 Ruth

And I think I'm really in some sense, pretty pansexual, but I love the complexity of being with women. I love the depth and the complexity and the sense of freedom of getting to be more self defining, like not having as many cultural scripts written for me.

00:09:44 Marie

Yeah.

00:09:50 Marie

Interesting, that's an interesting way to put it, yeah?

00:09:54 Marie

So Ed, was it something that it took you a while to realize you said that you had a boyfriend when you were 16.

00:09:59 Ruth

Yeah, for a while my parents had a hard time accepting me as a lesbian because I did have lots of boyfriends before I came out and I've had a few short term since I came out. But since I was.

00:10:10 Ruth

Short term boyfriend

00:10:10 Ruth

00:10:13 Ruth

20 I've been in love with fiber. Six women. Had you know other relationships with women? And I was in love with one man, you know, I skew pretty heavily toward women, but my my sexuality is is not black and white.

00:10:16 Ruth

Not bad.

00:10:16 Ruth

00:10:23 Marie

Right?

00:10:26 Ruth

One term that I like is homoromantic, that's nice.

00:10:30 Ruth

I like it, but then I also think that my sexual orientation is complexity.

00:10:30 Ruth

Yeah.

00:10:30 Ruth

00:10:35 Marie

Yeah.

00:10:37 Ruth

I like people who are gender complex and the one man that I was.

00:10:37 Ruth

Like

00:10:37 Ruth

00:10:42 Ruth

In love with as an adult, has this strong, masculine and strong feminine sides and and the women who I have drawn to tend to also have that.

00:10:47 Marie

Oh

00:10:50 Marie

So let's talk about your. Was it your first girlfriend that had the kidney?

00:10:55 Ruth

No, she was not my first girlfriend, but she was very significant.

00:10:55 Ruth

No.

00:10:55 Ruth

00:10:59 Ruth

I fell in love with her when I was 28 and her kidneys failed a few years later. She was a really amazing figure.

00:11:08 Ruth

She was really a larger than life person and she had her own grit and resilience story for sure. She grew up in Puerto Rico and you know.

00:11:19 Ruth

Didn't really know that there were any other lesbians.

00:11:21 Ruth

She majored in psychology in college. She was the first person in her family to go to college, and in one of her psychology classes they taught about homosexuality as a mental disorder.

00:11:32 Ruth

Oh dear, but she talked to the professor after class and told him that she had a friend who was a lesbian and.

00:11:41 Ruth

Uh.

00:11:41 Ruth

00:11:41 Ruth

Yeah.

00:11:41 Ruth

00:11:41 Ruth

He said to her very kindly, that her friend should move to San Francisco.

00:11:47 Ruth

She would find other people like her there.

00:11:50 Marie

Well, isn't that interesting. He would teach that and then tell her that. Well, he was teaching from the DSM at the time.

00:11:55 Marie

Wow Oh my gosh.

00:11:55 Marie

Oh my gosh.

00:11:57 Ruth

So that was the official word until it changed. I was just talking to one of my students yesterday. I run a program as you know, for lesbians and queer women teaching about dating and relationship skills.

00:12:10 Ruth

And this woman was telling me she's in her 40s now and when she was in her 20s, she was struggling with her.

00:12:17 Ruth

Sexual orientation and went to a therapist and the therapist said to.

00:12:20 Ruth

Her well being gay is not a problem unless it's a problem for you, but of course it was a problem for her because she was afraid she was going to lose her job.

00:12:30 Ruth

She worked for church. She had to keep her life secret. She had nobody she could talk to about her romantic life. So how was it not going to be a problem for her? You know? So so then.

00:12:30

Right?

00:12:30

I.

00:12:39 Marie

Uh-huh

00:12:41 Ruth

She spent many years trying to change herself and I hear stories like this all the time. My former partner, Gladys, I think, was really tremendously courageous. She just, you know, she had a few $100 in a guitar and she.

00:12:54 Ruth

Left Puerto Rico for San Francisco. Being helped because she wanted to live her own life. But the problem was that she was diabetic.

00:13:02 Ruth

That caught up with her. Her kidney started failing because of the diabetes because she hadn't managed it well, so I donated my kidney to her because I loved her. It just seemed like the thing to do.

00:13:14 Ruth

You know I had two. She needed one.

00:13:16 Marie

Wow, what a gift of love.

00:13:18 Marie

Do that yeah, and it's great that you were able to do that as well. So after Gladys, there's another old fashioned name for you, Gladys and Ruth.

00:13:18 Ruth

Uh.

00:13:26 Ruth

Yeah, yeah.

00:13:27 Marie

But interesting, I was thinking about the name Nancy because I have come to meet a number of Nancy's who are like curl 60 like 56.

00:13:34 Marie

Do you think that was obviously a very popular name? That's why right, and so Gladys and Ruth is more like my parents generation. I don't usually meet people who are around my age named Gladys.

00:13:39 Ruth

Really.

00:13:47 Marie

Ruth, I love it.

00:13:48 Ruth

Yeah.

00:13:49 Ruth

I struggled with her name for a while. I thought it was such an ugly name, but I loved her so I got.

00:13:54 Ruth

Over it.

00:13:54 Marie

Yeah, so interesting. I have a friend who had a little girl a few years ago and named her Esther, which is another old fashioned baby just like these old fashioned names. Very interesting, so let's talk about it. What you're doing now about the conscious girlfriend Academy?

00:14:01 Ruth

Oh yeah, it's very old actually, yeah.

00:14:09 Marie

Tell us what led you to found that and what you do with that organization.

00:14:14 Ruth

Yeah, so I found it it.

00:14:16 Ruth

With a former partner of mine who a few years later transitioned from female to male, so we no longer work together on this project because the project is for lesbians and through women, and you know, he he is no longer a woman. You know, both of us had had very complex journeys to be able to have.

00:14:26 Marie

Right, right?

00:14:36 Ruth

A pretty healthy conscious relationship and we just kind of started it for fun. I'll talk about her as a her because she was at that time she.

00:14:44 Ruth

She had a.

00:14:46 Ruth

Lack of confidence around teaching things that she wasn't formally trained to do, and so at one point I teased her.

00:14:53 Ruth

I said, well, where are your credentials for being my girlfriend? You know, where's your diploma from girlfriend, school and and then we thought, oh we should teach girlfriend school.

00:15:03 Marie

Oh my gosh, what a what a fun way to start.

00:15:05 Marie

Something.

00:15:06 Ruth

Yeah, and then the.

00:15:08 Ruth

URL For girlfriend School was not available so we came up with conscious girlfriend instead and it's really been quite a journey. We started it in late 2013. I had no idea what it was going to be.

00:15:21 Ruth

Com.

00:15:21 Ruth

00:15:22 Ruth

It's only been what like 7 1/2 years I've had women from 22 countries take my classes.

00:15:28 Marie

Wow.

00:15:30 Marie

That's amazing.

00:15:31 Ruth

There is such a hunger and need in the lesbian community, and you know, queer women, community women who fall in love with women. Or, you know, have relationships.

00:15:42 Ruth

With women, whatever labels we use or don't use because relationships with women are.

00:15:49 Ruth

Intense and nobody has taught us how to do this right?

00:15:53 Ruth

Certainly nobody taught me, you know, my parents did not have a good, stable relationship, and even if they had, I think the degree of complexity and intensity that often exists between women.

00:15:55 Marie

Right?

00:16:07 Ruth

I hear this all the time from.

00:16:09 Ruth

From students of mine who have come out later in life and maybe they're in their 40s or 50s or 60s and have had relationships, they are kind of floored because they feel this degree of intensity with women that they never felt before. But also it is so much more emotionally complex. You know, I think we just set off.

00:16:27 Marie

So huh?

00:16:30 Ruth

Each other triggers some women in general.

00:16:31 Ruth

Once you have.

00:16:31 Ruth

00:16:33 Ruth

Just such a wide range of emotional, a big emotional palette.

00:16:35 Ruth

Why?

00:16:35 Ruth

00:16:39 Ruth

Available to us.

00:16:40 Marie

Yeah, I mean, I think we're more in touch with our emotions, so we're more likely to express them where men are more likely to keep it. Well, I have three sons, so this is.

00:16:49 Marie

This is my home I live.

00:16:49 Marie

A long time.

00:16:49 Marie

00:16:50 Ruth

Yeah huh?

00:16:50 Marie

With for men, and my observation is that either they they have and and my husband this way.

00:16:57 Marie

To that he has an outburst and that he feels like a sense of relief, but also the other thing I've observed is that boys in general they're, I mean, they're I don't think that there's this much drama with their friendships and things, you know.

00:17:13 Marie

Yeah, there's a lot more teasing, but people don't take it as seriously. Things like that.

00:17:18 Marie

Hello.

00:17:19 Ruth

Yeah, well I observed and my former partner who transitioned to gender also observed in himself that within a few weeks of his starting to take testosterone he became a different person emotionally, yeah.

00:17:32 Marie

Oh, fascinating, fascinating.

00:17:34 Marie

So said, like the testosterone, help it.

00:17:36 Ruth

It was really true.

00:17:36 Ruth

Was really true.

00:17:36 Ruth

00:17:36 Ruth

Really, truly is hormonal, and I've read this, you know, in other accounts of people transitioning as well because as a.

00:17:42 Ruth

Yes.

00:17:42 Ruth

00:17:44 Ruth

Moment was emotionally complex. You know, probably like you and me and most women and we have a range of different feelings throughout the day and he says that pretty soon after beginning testosterone data.

00:17:47 Marie

Yeah.

00:17:49 Marie

Right?

00:17:57 Ruth

Emotional complexity kind of disappeared, wow?

00:18:00 Ruth

And mostly he would just feel ***** or angry.

00:18:03 Ruth

Oh my gosh is.

00:18:04 Marie

That funny, I mean, that's the kind of information we have that we did. You know now that more people are transitioning, right? That exactly.

00:18:10 Marie

Right?

00:18:10 Marie

00:18:13 Ruth

Yeah.

00:18:13 Ruth

Yeah, so in, you know, in general I think women just have the experience we have and then just have the experience they have and not that many people have had many years of lived experience with one set of hormones and then the completely other experience. It's a pretty fascinating example of you we.

00:18:14 Marie

Wow.

00:18:28 Ruth

Yeah.

00:18:28 Ruth

00:18:31 Marie

It is.

00:18:34 Ruth

Really are different and the difference so much of it. I mean, of course there's also how we get raised and all of that.

00:18:40 Ruth

But with my former partners example, it really leads me to think so much of the difference is hormonal.

00:18:47 Marie

Yeah, that makes sense. Many many years ago I was at a women's group with all of us except for one. We're straight then.

00:18:54 Marie

And then my lesbian friend who what we often used to tease her because she's the one who's getting all the sex.

00:19:02 Marie

As opposed to the married women and the she wasn't married at the time. The other thing that I found fascinating and I found this to be repeated as my lesbian circle has widened that.

00:19:13 Marie

And this is a probably a gross stereotype, but that lesbians tend to stay in touch more with their ex's.

00:19:20 Ruth

Oh absolutely, right so.

00:19:20 Ruth

Oh

00:19:22 Ruth

Yes, it is a part of lesbian culture. I mean not universal by anything but, but yeah, a lot of us do build chosen families with axis.

00:19:24 Marie

Yes, right, right?

00:19:30 Marie

Yes, I don't know if you're a Brandi Carlile fan.

00:19:34 Ruth

A little bit, yeah.

00:19:34 Ruth

A little bit.

00:19:35 Marie

Yeah, so Brandi Carlile just wrote a new book and I was like watching interviews that she was having 'cause she's like my favorite.

00:19:42 Marie

Sure, and she was talking about her very first girlfriend and she still has this great relationship with her very first girlfriend and her and she lives down the street from.

00:19:50 Marie

Them just like.

00:19:50 Marie

Them.

00:19:51 Marie

Huh, yeah, that's totally different. I it's hard for me to imagine that because you know the few boyfriends that I had before I got married.

00:19:59 Marie

Like, but I'm sure complicated too.

00:20:01 Ruth

It can be absolutely. I mean, I think in some ways human relationships are just human relationships and then in other ways there are some really distinct features.

00:20:11 Ruth

Of lesbian relationships.

00:20:13 Ruth

And that's why what I teach is so needed because you know, just again, just yesterday this woman was telling me, you know, she's heard some of the stuff I teach before, but it's really different.

00:20:26 Ruth

Having it in a lesbian context and she doesn't have to watch her pronouns. Yes, you know, certain of the things that that.

00:20:34 Ruth

Often play out between women just aren't the case in heterosexual relationships like there's a joke that maybe you've heard from your lesbian friends. What does the lesbian bring on the second date? Do you know this one?

00:20:47 Marie

I don't think so.

00:20:47 Marie

I don't think.

00:20:47 Ruth

So, so the answer is AU.

00:20:50 Ruth

Well.

00:20:51 Marie

That's funny. My commitment happens really quickly.

00:20:55 Ruth

Oftentimes, yeah, yeah. And you know there is a reason why nobody jokes of like what is a straight couple bring or what is a gay male couple bring on the second date you know. Are you all like it doesn't? It doesn't tend to play out that way, yes?

00:21:06 Marie

Right?

00:21:09 Ruth

But oftentimes, with women we go into this bonding thing so fast.

00:21:15 Marie

Yes, I mean I found that happen with my friendships.

00:21:19 Marie

Uh-huh, but my friendships with women are so much deeper than my husband or my sons can get to with their male friends.

00:21:28 Ruth

Right, right? I hear that from my straight friends all the time and that's kind of why I say my sexual orientation is complexity because I think you know I'm OK with men's bodies. But I crave that that extra degree of intimacy.

00:21:41 Ruth

And I think.

00:21:41 Marie

Right, yeah?

00:21:42 Ruth

Some some straight women are like, ah, keep me away from that extra degree of intensity like.

00:21:48 Ruth

You know straight women joke about men all the time that they're kind of simple and dumb and.

00:21:52 Marie

Uh.

00:21:52 Marie

Uh.

00:21:52 Ruth

You know, and so it's like there's an ease in having that kind of relationship or there's a poverty, or both, you know.

00:22:01 Ruth

No, or there's a wealth you know. Then you can go and have the greater emotional intimacy with your friends, but without having to navigate the complexities of sexuality there.

00:22:11 Ruth

Right?

00:22:11 Ruth

00:22:11 Marie

Uh, it depends on your mood. That's what I find I relish. I savor my female friendships. I would be lost without them. And it's interesting because one of the.

00:22:17 Ruth

Uh-huh

00:22:20 Marie

Women of my women's group from so many years ago was actually living with another other women. I think maybe more than one over the course of several years and then ended up marrying a man.

00:22:31 Marie

And I remember her saying that she actually really appreciates the yin Yang of the female male relationship, and for probably for some of the reasons that you're talking about that, that was what she needed in her life instead of all that intensity, you know. So yeah, it's it's interesting to think about it that way.

00:22:40 Ruth

Huh?

00:22:45 Ruth

Is it?

00:22:51 Marie

I'm sure the relationships are very different, yeah?

00:22:52 Ruth

Yeah yeah, and I think you know I. I mean, I've heard that kind of.

00:22:57 Ruth

Thing also from other women that were more sexually fluid who decide that relationships with women are just too complex or hard for them. But of course many lesbians are are not really sexually fluid. They're really just assisted in women, right?

00:23:13 Ruth

Absolutely or or like in my case, just so much more likely to fall in love with women that we we really have to find ways of working it out because we don't have another satisfying alternative, right?

00:23:19 Marie

Yeah.

00:23:24 Marie

Yes.

00:23:28 Marie

Is that where you teach us?

00:23:29 Marie

Part of them is how to navigate the the complexities, yeah?

00:23:32 Ruth

Absolutely yeah. And how to date more wisely because I think most of us tend and I've done this so many times in my own life date according to chemistry and in not just physical chemistry but just whatever that mysterious thing is that happens when you meet somebody and just your your whole.

00:23:36 Marie

Hmm.

00:23:51 Ruth

Being starts opening up to them you.

00:23:53 Marie

Teach women on how to.

00:23:55 Ruth

How to not do that?

00:23:56 Ruth

How did not?

00:23:56 Ruth

Did not.

00:23:57 Marie

I do that. I was gonna say hey, really.

00:23:58 Ruth

I did it.

00:23:59 Ruth

People do that automatically and and and so because we we tend to do that.

00:24:01 Marie

Yes, OK, got it.

00:24:06 Ruth

And then lesbians tend to bond so quickly. It's like Oh my God, I only known you for a few hours, but I can just tell you're the person I've been looking for my whole life.

00:24:16 Ruth

I know that none of the issues that I've had with other people are going to come up with you because it feels.

00:24:20 Ruth

So right with you, you.

00:24:22 Ruth

Know and then we we go really deeply in.

00:24:26 Ruth

Uh.

00:24:26 Ruth

00:24:26 Ruth

And whether we move in together or get engaged? Or you know, even get married or just get you know extremely emotionally involved. Very quickly. I call it bonding with lesbian super glue.

00:24:38 Ruth

We do it before we really know the other person, and we often don't know even that much about ourselves or what will really constitute compatibility for us.

00:24:48 Marie

Huh?

00:24:49 Ruth

What we really need and are looking for in a relationship because nobody ever handed us the menu. Nobody ever said like you get to think about.

00:24:57 Ruth

You know how? How are things going to work for you? So most of us haven't thought about that, and so we just meet somebody.

00:25:00 Marie

Never.

00:25:05 Ruth

Feel all this desire and chemistry. Dive right in and then find out we dove into a swimming pool that didn't have any water in it.

00:25:12 Marie

Right?

00:25:12 Ruth

And lots of women have had that experience over and over, and and I've had it more than a few times.

00:25:19 Ruth

Which is part of why I.

00:25:19

Quiet.

00:25:21 Ruth

You know, learned what I know now, not that I practice it perfectly in my life, but I do know a lot about it.

00:25:28 Ruth

And that's why I teach it, because it really it's so illuminating for so many women just to realize oh, this isn't just me.

00:25:36 Marie

Sure.

00:25:36 Ruth

This is a.

00:25:37 Ruth

Phenomena, and there are ways to do it differently.

00:25:38 Marie

Yeah.

00:25:41 Marie

There's so much power in teaching people what you had to learn yourself.

00:25:47 Ruth

Absolutely yeah.

00:25:48 Marie

Yeah.

00:25:48 Marie

00:25:49 Ruth

And I the fascinating thing is that I do hear similar stories from women all over the world. So it's it's not just a specifically American cultural phenomenon, it.

00:26:02 Marie

Etc.

00:26:03 Ruth

It seems to be what often happens between.

00:26:07 Ruth

Women romantically involved with each other.

00:26:09 Ruth

Right?

00:26:09 Ruth

00:26:10 Marie

Wow, so interesting. So are you like the only organization that offers these types of services?

00:26:17 Ruth

One of the few.

00:26:19 Ruth

Yeah, I don't know of anybody else who's doing quite what I'm doing. Certainly there are some other lesbian coaches and therapists that are teaching.

00:26:29 Ruth

But yeah, the conscious girlfriend Academy has.

00:26:34 Ruth

Created a really worldwide community and that's the other cool thing about it for me is that it's not just me and what I teach.

00:26:38 Ruth

And.

00:26:38 Ruth

00:26:45 Ruth

Although you know I teach a lot of classes on a lot of topics, but it's also women finding each other and like minded.

00:26:54 Ruth

Growth oriented.

00:26:56 Ruth

Women who are involved with women and having a community where they get to talk about these things and hold each other accountable and laugh and cry.

00:27:05 Ruth

And you know, do it differently and it's it's really such a beautiful thing to be part of and to witness.

00:27:16 Marie

Now what did you do before this you've taught? I know you've written some books you've taught.

00:27:22 Marie

What was your professional training I?

00:27:24 Ruth

Have an MFA in creative writing that I got right after college and but then I moved to San Francisco as a young lesbian and started working at the San Francisco AIDS Foundation and kind of de facto became a health educator. And because I always gradually gravitated.

00:27:40 Marie

Oops.

00:27:42 Ruth

For teaching, then after I got my first book of poems published, I got an academic teaching job teaching, creative writing, and so I did that for a number of years.

00:27:43 Marie

Interesting.

00:27:54 Ruth

But then I missed being more closely involved. Kind of with the nitty gritty of peoples lives. So then I I went back and got my PhD in transpersonal psychology and studied hypnotherapy and shamanic work. And, you know, went much more on the transformational tool path.

00:28:13 Marie

Wow, so all of that really.

00:28:15 Marie

Leads you up to what you're doing now. I mean, it really prepped you for this, doesn't it?

00:28:18 Ruth

Thank you.

00:28:18 Ruth

Thank.

00:28:20 Marie

Totally yeah. What an interesting life you've LED.

00:28:20 Marie

Yeah.

00:28:20 Marie

00:28:23 Ruth

Thank you and you too thank.

00:28:25 Marie

Thank you, thank you and and the other thing I wanted to just touch on is I know personally I know a lot more people who are transitioning or who have transitioned and.

00:28:26 Marie

You thank you.

00:28:26 Marie

00:28:36 Marie

That's another area that I I don't know whether you offer assistance to people whose partners are transitioning, But that's another wow.

00:28:43 Marie

What I mean, what a shock that must have been for you. 'cause you fell in love with a woman.

00:28:47 Marie

Not everybody is willing to take that journey with their partner because they're not may not be attracted to that gender.

00:28:55 Ruth

Yeah, yeah, that absolutely does happen for people.

00:28:59 Ruth

I mean in my case, because as I said, I feel like in some ways my sexual orientation is complexity.

00:29:05 Ruth

The woman that I fell in love with had a strongly masculine side, and so her deciding that she wanted to have the male on the outside and the female on the inside rather than vice versa.

00:29:16 Ruth

Get out.

00:29:16 Ruth

00:29:19 Ruth

Wasn't a problem for me per Southeast, but what was challenging for me was that she became a different being as she transitioned. You know, through the testosterone as we've talked about, and as that being emerged.

00:29:29 Marie

Uh-huh

00:29:34 Marie

Yeah.

00:29:39 Ruth

He is a different person and he had different needs and there were ways that we became less compatible. I think on both sides as he became that other person and my attraction to him was still there. Yeah, he just got engaged today to his partner so I.

00:29:41

See here.

00:29:48 Ruth

Uh.

00:29:48 Ruth

00:29:56 Marie

Oh, that's wonderful.

00:29:58 Ruth

Yeah, I'm very happy for him and we just taught a class together last weekend, so we are still connected and in answer to your question, I certainly would work with people who wanted support around their partners transition.

00:30:02 Marie

Oh nice.

00:30:12 Ruth

That hasn't actually happened. I mean, I haven't had anybody come to me for that, but he has now started.

00:30:17 Ruth

Yes.

00:30:17 Ruth

00:30:19 Ruth

His name is Max Pearl and he has started an organization called Trans Resilience Through which he teaches a lot of the same tools that he and I originally developed in conscious girlfriend like.

00:30:32 Marie

Great.

00:30:32 Ruth

A lot of tools around being conscious and compassionate and curious.

00:30:37 Ruth

Self loving, aware of triggers and to self regulate and communication tools and now partner selection all that kind of thing which I still teach through conscious girlfriend.

00:30:50 Ruth

He now teaches through towns resilience, so he'd be a great referral for people who are seeking that who are.

00:30:56 Ruth

Either transitioning themselves.

00:30:58 Ruth

Or, you know, connected to someone who is.

00:31:01 Marie

There was a question that was posed recently at a dinner party.

00:31:03 Marie

I was at that was an outdoor, socially distanced dinner party and the question was what is a little regret you have in your life.

00:31:11 Marie

I thought that was a really interesting way to think about it, like not a big regret, but a little regrets like something that you might might do differently if she.

00:31:18 Marie

Could do it over again.

00:31:19 Ruth

Yeah, and so I think a lot about my jeans and my temperament. You know some of my temperament and personality is genetic. Maybe a lot of it. You know, as is true for all of us.

00:31:31 Ruth

And so going back to my father and the cautionary tale from him, I do have in many ways a similar personality to his.

00:31:39 Ruth

I am a risk taker. I am bold, I am impetuous. I am impulsive. You know. Oftentimes, people would probably say nobody can tell me what to do I.

00:31:50 Marie

Right?

00:31:51 Ruth

And I I love that about myself and I have seen how my father destroyed himself with that and and so that's one of the big things that I am.

00:32:03 Ruth

I try to temper it myself like I will always be a risk taker, but I try to look at can I take better advised risks?

00:32:11 Ruth

Do I have to take every risk every time you know I've taken some big financial risks in my life? Fortunately, I've come out ahead more of the time than behind. I've taken some.

00:32:23 Ruth

Big emotional and romantic risks in my life and I'm still here to talk about it. And I teach from it on the thing that I was talking to you about about so many women doing of just falling in love really fast and then having really high stakes relationship.

00:32:27 Ruth

To talk about it.

00:32:27 Ruth

00:32:30 Ruth

You know, I've certainly done the thing that I.

00:32:42 Ruth

That ended up being really shattered. I am trying to become more of my own student around that.

00:32:51 Ruth

Because I I hear from people that I teach that you know they're not doing it anymore, 'cause they learned from me. There was a different possibility. So it's like, am I gonna change that too?

00:32:56 Ruth

Or not.

00:32:56 Ruth

00:33:05 Marie

Yeah, now you're under pressure to walk your talk.

00:33:08 Ruth

Well, you know I.

00:33:09 Ruth

Think I walk my talk anyway, what's most important to me in my talk is telling people that there are alternatives if they have choices and then sometimes I feel like OK. I see that this is not. I'm going really fast.

00:33:11

Yeah.

00:33:24 Ruth

Sure, and you know I have a lot of skills so I can drive 150 miles an.

00:33:29 Ruth

Hour rather than having to go 75 like other people or 70.

00:33:31 Marie

Yeah.

00:33:32 Marie

Yes.

00:33:32 Ruth

Or 65 and it's so like I'm based.

00:33:35 Ruth

Basically, a resilient enough person coming back to your theme to be able to get away with that. But I also wonder, I think there are a lot of different stories that any of us can can choose to live out and so on.

00:33:50 Ruth

The heels of my most recent breakup. That's that's why this is on my mind.

00:33:54 Marie

A lot, yeah, I've often.

00:33:55 Marie

Wondered what my life would be like if I.

00:33:58 Marie

Entered things a little bit more slowly as well.

00:34:00 Ruth

Yeah.

00:34:02 Ruth

OK, so you and our salsas finish them.

00:34:04 Ruth

Rather.

00:34:04 Ruth

00:34:04 Marie

Yes, yes. I mean we're just like made decisions.

00:34:07 Marie

All it took a little bit more time before I jumped in with both feet first. You know, in my case relationship wise, my husband took a lot longer to realize that I was the one.

00:34:18 Marie

So we were together for three years before we got engaged. So he's from Britain and I'm from the USA and we met in Japan, so everything was complicated and I ended up staying in Japan for two extra years because I knew he was the one and it took him forever to realize that about me, not forever. I mean, he was all in while.

00:34:24 Ruth

Ah.

00:34:25 Ruth

Huh?

00:34:36 Marie

We were dating but he he was much more reluctant to commit. So as men often are right, yes.

00:34:41 Ruth

Ah yes, exactly well, and that's a blessing and a curse. I mean that saved you from the, you know, on the second date phenomenon, but but it it sounds like maybe it was painful or frustrating.

00:34:44 Marie

No.

00:34:47 Marie

Fries?

00:34:50 Marie

Yes.

00:34:54 Marie

I wouldn't even say that it was painful or frustrating, but I felt like I did not want him to be backed into anything that he didn't want to be.

00:35:01 Marie

Our relationship's funny because we both left Japan.

00:35:04 Marie

And we went travelling through Asia for three months and I bought a ticket from, you know, throughout Asia and then going back to Oregon and he bought a ticket that took him back to the to the UK and so there was like this elephant between us and we had this incredible trip and it wasn't till our final country India where I was thinking like.

00:35:24 Marie

Oh my God, what I was waiting for him to propose, mostly because even though I'm a feminist, I wanted him to.

00:35:30 Ruth

I I was I was wondering about that like the new proposed it was.

00:35:32 Marie

Yeah, because.

00:35:34 Marie

All about, I mean, I knew before he did so I didn't. You know, I wanted him to make the first move because I wanted him to.

00:35:40 Marie

I wanted to be sure that he was in on it, right? So that's why he was running out of time.

00:35:44

Yes.

00:35:45 Marie

So I was going to propose if he didn't so funny. Now I often tease me about that and I was like, Oh my God, it took you forever. But and there are other things.

00:35:54 Marie

Where he's much more deliberative.

00:35:56 Marie

But we have bought 2 houses like on the spot, you know. So we well, we have made decisions pretty quickly and they panned out OK, but other things like you know, starting a project for a client without really asking all the questions that I could.

00:36:10 Marie

Probably you know little things like that I could benefit from slowing down a little bit more 'cause I do really, I move quickly.

00:36:17 Marie

I get a lot done, but I move quickly.

00:36:18

Yeah.

00:36:19 Marie

So, so I'm sure I could benefit from slowing down too.

00:36:22 Ruth

Sounds like that's also your gift, and obviously, you're. You're an entrepreneur as I am, and I heard recently this in this entrepreneur training that entrepreneurs are people who have perceptual distortions.

00:36:25 Marie

It is your right? Yes yes yes.

00:36:39 Ruth

We would not become entrepreneurs if we didn't, you know, like if we.

00:36:44 Ruth

New upfront how hard things were going.

00:36:46 Ruth

To be, you wouldn't do them why most people don't do them and.

00:36:48 Ruth

Oh

00:36:48 Ruth

00:36:50 Ruth

I thought wow.

00:36:50 Ruth

Thought wow.

00:36:50 Ruth

00:36:50 Ruth

I thought wow, that is so true and that explains a lot about my life.

00:36:54 Ruth

Even beyond my work.

00:36:54 Marie

Ah.

00:36:54 Marie

00:36:56 Marie

Interesting. Well, it did take me awhile to become an entrepreneur. So I mean I was in the corporate. I was in the corporate world for 30 years so.

00:37:00 Ruth

Fast.

00:37:04 Marie

It wasn't like I jumped into that and I and I and I did it out of necessity, and then it took me a while to come around to it.

00:37:09 Marie

So that's one example in my life where it took me a while. But that's really yeah, very interesting to think of.

00:37:11 Marie

My life.

00:37:11 Marie

00:37:16 Marie

About that, yeah, maybe all in another month. I'll drop you an email and say Ruth. How are you doing? I'm slowing down, we can remind each other.

00:37:24 Ruth

Ah yeah.

00:37:27 Marie

That might not be a bad.

00:37:27 Ruth

Well, it may.

00:37:27 Ruth

Well, it.

00:37:28 Ruth

Thing also, but it might also just be.

00:37:30 Ruth

Your death done mind these things that way.

00:37:31 Marie

It is, yeah, it's like it's like multitasking. I've I've heard I've read all the articles that you shouldn't multitask and I've just basically finally given up on it and realized I thrive when I multi task.

00:37:41 Marie

I thrive when I.

00:37:41 Marie

00:37:43 Marie

I guess I little oddity.

00:37:43 Ruth

So you you probably.

00:37:44 Ruth

Have a brain that needs a lot of stimulation you. Yeah yeah, some it it's. I don't really identify as having a DD, although I might test for it.

00:37:47 Marie

Probably yeah.

00:37:47 Marie

Probably.

00:37:54 Marie

Yeah, there may be some of that. There may be some of. I mean I like fried.

00:37:55 Ruth

I don't know, I you know?

00:37:56 Marie

Yeah, that I feel like variety, you know, ever since I was a kid I've been able to do several things I can't do as much.

00:38:04 Marie

At the same time as I used to be able to do when I was younger.

00:38:06 Marie

But like for one example is when we're watching a show or something. I can be writing a thank you card while I'm watching a show. You know, things like that that my husband cannot do that.

00:38:13 Ruth

Huh?

00:38:16 Ruth

Yeah, I understand what you're what you're talking about.

00:38:17 Marie

Uh, yeah. Supposedly you're not as effective at either one. You know, I get that too, but for me it's like I I can't help it this way.

00:38:26 Marie

Yeah, so so back to my. I have a just a couple of final questions. Have you read or watched anything recently that has inspired you that you would like to recommend to people?

00:38:35 Marie

Well I just.

00:38:35 Marie

Well I just.

00:38:35 Marie

00:38:36 Ruth

Was thinking of a poem that I wanted to bring up, which is by Wendell Berry and it's called the Sycamore and the line that was coming to me.

00:38:42 Marie

Oh, I don't Barry.

00:38:46 Ruth

It was about this great tree that has woven all accidents into its purpose.

00:38:52 Marie

Oh, that's beautiful.

00:38:54 Ruth

And that's what I was thinking as you and I were talking. But just like how these these things that are either random or devasted.

00:39:04 Ruth

Meeting how, how both you and I have woven them into our purpose.

00:39:09 Marie

Yeah, I love that. That's beautiful.

00:39:11 Ruth

And sycamores are incredible because they can be hollowed out on the inside by fire and and yet still alive.

00:39:21 Ruth

So that's the that's the metaphor of the poem. It's easy to find online if people want to Google.

00:39:26 Marie

That is beautiful. That reminds me, I just a friend shared a poem just a couple days ago by Khalil Gibran about it's called Fear.

00:39:34 Marie

Is that right? It's called fear him at the river flowing into the ocean. Have you heard that one oh so beautiful? I'll send it to you 'cause it's really inspiring me. And basically you know and.

00:39:40 Ruth

Who else I have?

00:39:47 Marie

I I'm not very good at memorizing poems, but the the idea is that the river has fear.

00:39:53 Marie

But is being drawn to the ocean, and when and when it goes into the ocean, it can release its fear.

00:39:54 Ruth

Right?

00:39:58 Marie

It's really beautiful and very relevant for those of us who are trying to create new things. You know taking those risks.

00:39:58 Ruth

It's really cool.

00:39:58 Ruth

Cool.

00:40:04 Ruth

Mm-hmm

00:40:05 Marie

So yeah, so my final question is, is there a story of grit and resilience? That's been an inspiration for you and your life.

00:40:12 Ruth

Oh my God there are.

00:40:13 Ruth

So I.

00:40:13 Ruth

Yeah.

00:40:13 Ruth

00:40:14 Marie

Know I know well.

00:40:16 Ruth

I think the one yes that I heard yesterday from one of my students is the one that comes to mind.

00:40:21 Ruth

Because I heard it yesterday. This person, who in her 20s she was having relationships with women, but she was working for a church and went to this therapist who.

00:40:31 Ruth

Well, it's you know if it's a problem for you, it's a problem to be gay. So she talked about how literally she gave herself a talking to, and she said to herself, you have to stop this.

00:40:41 Ruth

You have to grow up. You just have to get women out of your system and you know, find a man 'cause you want to have a child and she did find a man and she said you know the good thing about our relationship.

00:40:52 Ruth

'cause we hardly ever had sex.

00:40:54 Marie

You know, right?

00:40:54 Ruth

And.

00:40:56 Ruth

And he was a decent man, and she has a child. And then these years later, she realized that that this was who she was, that women were who she loved, and fell in love with.

00:41:08 Ruth

And you know she has reclaimed that, and she actually just ended a relationship with a woman because that woman was still.

00:41:16 Ruth

So deeply in the closet and she said, I I can't be this person dirty little secret anymore. I was so moved.

00:41:17 Marie

Sure.

00:41:24 Ruth

We were both moved to tears as she was telling this story. You know, and now that she found the Academy, the Conscious girlfriend Academy.

00:41:28 Marie

Oh, that's beautiful.

00:41:33 Ruth

Yeah.

00:41:33 Ruth

00:41:33 Ruth

She's meeting all these other women with similar stories, and she's getting to talk about her relationships and you know both her struggles and her joys with women in a way that she never has gotten to 'cause she lives in the South. She lives in a conservative area. I get.

00:41:48 Ruth

I get to hear these up.

00:41:50 Ruth

Raise up.

00:41:50 Ruth

00:41:51 Ruth

Grit and resilience literally all the time. It's so moving to me 'cause there's the pain of it. And then there's on the other side. Just everybody who finds their way into my program.

00:42:00 Marie

Yes.

00:42:01 Marie

Yes.

00:42:04 Ruth

Has had a journey, you know we all have our journeys, but then you know, having to have a journey around claiming your sexual orientation on top of the other journeys.

00:42:15 Marie

And doing it by yourself too must be such an honor to to hold those stories and to help people like that.

00:42:16 Ruth

Uh-huh

00:42:21 Ruth

Yeah, it really is. I feel very fortunate that all the.

00:42:25 Ruth

You know the ways I've woven all accidents into my purpose have have have led me to this place.

00:42:28 Marie

Yes, yes.

00:42:32 Marie

That's amazing, well and and that is a whole another topic that we don't have time for. Which is the way that the the church sends these messages to to queer folks.

00:42:42 Marie

Whole other issue so thank you so much. Mary thank you Ruth.

00:42:44 Ruth

Marie for the beautiful work that you're doing. I love the topic of your podcast so much and I loved reading your story.

00:42:52 Ruth

You know just the orientation of the kinds of people that you have, and just what you're doing in the world is really inspiring.

00:42:59 Marie

Thank you so much. It's been an honor for me and uh.

00:43:02 Marie

A joy in the last year, totally so yeah.

00:43:04 Ruth

Yeah, I feel like we've. We've sat here and spent the last hour talking about me and I would.

00:43:08 Ruth

Totally love to spend the next time talking about you 'cause.

00:43:09 Marie

Oh

00:43:11

Ha.

00:43:13 Marie

Yeah, anytime I'd be happy to have another chat with you. We won't record it this time.

00:43:19 Marie

That'll be really good, right? Yeah, yeah.

00:43:24 Marie

Yeah, it's just been a pleasure meeting you and I hope I'll connect with you on social and look forward to getting to know more about you in the future.

00:43:30 Ruth

OK, wonderful, thank you so much.

00:43:32 Marie

Thank you Ruth.