Nura Elmagbari: Muslim-American feminist, supporting refugees and living out her faith

This week on the Finding Fertile Ground podcast, I interview Nura Elmagbari, a Muslim-American mom, wife, scientist, educator, nonprofit leader, activist, and community leader. I met Nura several years ago through my church, Spirit of Grace. Nura was our guest preacher for Mother’s Day, spoke on an interfaith women’s panel, brought her teen daughter to our youth group and talked about Islam, and emceed an immigrant storytelling event. 

Nura came to the United States as a child when her family escaped from Libya. They had to adjust to the American way of life with no support, and her mother gave birth to her baby brother shortly after they arrived in Greeley, Colorado.  

Now Nura has a master’s degree in human biology and is principal of the Islamic School of Portland. She has founded several nonprofits to aid Muslim children, immigrants, and refugees. 

Nura has fought racism and prejudice all her life. She learned nobody was going to give her a chance to succeed so she had to create it for herself. And now she provides support to refugees arriving in the United States, the kind of support her family never received.

She explains why she loves Islam, one thing she wishes Islam didn’t forbid, why she believes Islam supports feminism, and how she has a patent for a drug she helped develop that will change the medical world and addiction to opioids.

Next week on the Companies That Care podcast I interview Veronica Arreola, who is a widely published professional feminist, mom, and writer who has been working to diversify the STEM field for over 20 years. In her work at the University of Illinois-Chicago, Veronica works to ensure a supportive campus environment for Latinx students studying science. We spoke about how companies can attract and support Latinx and other employees of color in the workplace, especially in STEM environments.

If you enjoyed this podcast, please give us a rating and subscribe to hear our next episode. 

Marie Gettel-Gilmartin, founder and principal of Fertile Ground Communications LLC, is a writer and marketing communications consultant who loves to take the pain and stress out of writing for her clients. She specializes in making the complex clear, using dynamic, accessible language to explain and communicate important issues. She positions her clients as experts in their fields and helps them communicate about pressing issues. Writing communications that boost employee engagement and thought leadership, she also coaches leaders and executives on how to strengthen communications and leadership. She loves to connect people and resources or solve seemingly impossible problems.

Fertile Ground Communications LLC is a certified women-owned business enterprise, disadvantaged business enterprise, and emerging small business.

Transcript

Marie

Hello Nura, it's so great to talk to you. It's been so long since we've gotten together. Welcome to the Finding Fertile Ground podcast.

Nura

Thank you Marie. I'm so excited to be here.

Marie

It's been a while since I've interviewed somebody I actually know, so I've been looking forward to this.

Nura

Oh I hope I don't disappoint you.

Marie

One of the great things about podcasting is I've met people all around the world and it's been fascinating, but it's always wonderful to talk to a friend.

Nura

Well, I'm excited to have this conversation. We haven't talked in so long, so it's a good way to catch up too.

Marie

Yes, definitely. So let's start at the very beginning. Can you tell our their listeners about your childhood?

Nura

I was actually born in Benghazi, Libya, and that's what my ethnicity is. I'm Libyan. Libya is a country in North Africa. We have all kinds of mixed heritage, so my mother has Turkish descent and my father's from Sub-Saharan Africa. So we have blood from all over the world, which is really cool because the more we investigate about our heritage, the more we learn how really connected we are to other people in the world. And that's really an amazing thing.

And then when I was about three or four years old, my father was an anti Gaddafi person and we ended up having to flee from Libya because our lives were in danger. You know, Gaddafi went after anyone who didn't follow his regime.

And so you know, I was telling people like a Steven Spielberg movie, we were swept out of the country at 3:00 o'clock in the morning with just whatever my mom could throw in a suitcase. We ended up in Colorado in 1979. I came when I was like 3, 4 years old and it was not easy for us because my father had absolutely no English language skills. Nor did my mother. My mother was pregnant with her fifth child. It was not easy and he ended up being born on January 13th, 1978. Thirteen days after arriving to the United States.

Marie

Oh my gosh, your poor mother.

Nura

Yes yes. My poor mother was really, really sad, but we had to make a life for ourselves. Wwe ended up moving to a town called Greeley, CO, an agricultural town. A ranching town. It also has the largest packing plant in the world and at the time it was called Monfort Packing and my father was an Olympian in shot put, discus and powerlifting, so he was still competing at the time when he came to United States. So he started competing for Colorado State University and then University of Northern Colorado, and what we quickly realized was Colorado was not the most welcoming state.

We had many, many migrant workers that would come in during the picking season. I mean, it was everything from onions to peaches. Colorado grows everything and then we had workers that would come in and work, but that population kind of remained to themselves, even whether it was at school or whatever, and then the rest of the population was white.

And unfortunately for us, we didn't really fit in anywhere, so it was really hard being the only or one of very few Muslim families to live in that area. And we did face a lot of racism, a lot of prejudice, a lot of bigotry, a lot of hatred. And so growing up was hard. It wasn't easy, and being you know, a Muslim American growing up and at the time we were refugees. So we still didn't have that label, right, of being an American, honest, but it was really hard to identify with anyone and really understand what my own identity was.

I am Muslim. Was I Arab, was I an African? Was I an American? What was I? And so that struggle growing up kind of shaped who I am.

I have nine siblings, there's nine of us, so we always had fun. In that sense, we had each other, which was really, really important, but not knowing where you belong really has a strong impact on your identity, right? And so I found myself always looking for where I go.

I ended up homeschooling high school, 'cause I refused to go. I was so miserable; I was bullied. I was treated bad by teachers and everyone around me. I struggled in school not because I wasn't smart, but because the teachers didn't treat me the same as other kids and so I homeschooled high school which was really good because I ended up entering college early. 

And in college, suddenly people started talking differently and smiling differently and treating you differently because there was just a different kind of atmosphere. It was no longer a bunch of immature kids at school. Now you had professors and people that were striving for this higher education that were hopefully also striving for more open mindedness. And I just thought to myself, you know what, I can do this. I can. I can fit in somehow and I tried, but what ended up happening is I was working 10 times harder than anybody else just to get the same recognition. I had to get better grades. I had to stay longer in the lab. I had to clean up more. I had to work harder. I just felt like no matter what I did, I was never good enough and at one point, I realized it's really not because of them, it's because of how I was perceiving their behaviors towards me and I needed to change myself in order to not allow their behaviors to affect me the way it was affecting me, because no matter how hard you try, you really can't change other people unless they want to.

I had to change myself. I had to figure out OK, what am I going to do to live a better life to more productive life? A more efficient life and, and that's exactly what I did. I stopped internalizing even though I still do it. You know you can't help it, especially as women and you know as nurturers and just the generation that we grew up in, we can't help but internalize the way people treat us, especially people we love or we care about people that are close to us.

And so I just came to a point where I realized it doesn't matter what you think of me. What matters is what I think of me and what matters is what the people I love and care about think of me and at the end of the day I know I'm doing my best and I know I'm not hurting anyone in the process and so really, that is what all my experiences as a child led me to understanding. It just completely reframed my thinking to say, you know what, I am a Muslim. I am an American. I am a woman. I am a hijabi and I am proud of that. And now let's go change the world. Once I accepted my identity of who I was, it was much easier to move forward.

Marie

Before we started recording, I was telling Nura that she has a regal appearance and I think that is why. You have this self-awareness and this confidence that just beams outward. I think it's really amazing that you were able to turn that around on your own, and do that yourself.

Nura

That's very sweet of you to say, and I can't take full credit for doing it myself. You know, my father was very, very strict growing up, but he did teach us to fight. And not physically fight but fight for what we believed in. And my mother, I call her a walking heart, because she truly taught us the meaning of unconditional love. The meaning of acceptance, the meaning of tolerance, the meaning of kindness, and generosity and patience, you know? Those are such important qualities when you're constantly fighting a war. A world that's ever changing and almost declining in things like manners and just certain aspects of respect and dignity, right? And then I had, you know, people in my life that mentored me without even realizing they were mentoring me because I learned through their actions.

Nura

I've been a teacher for over 30 years. Now almost 30 years; actually next year will be my 30th year being a teacher. And I learned how to be a good teacher through both my bad teachers and good teachers. With the bad teachers I said you know what I will never teach like that. I will never treat my students like that. And if that teacher just said this to me or just taught me something in this way, it would have made a world of difference.

And then the good teachers. What were those teachers like? Mrs. Brown in fifth grade? God bless her soul. This woman was just full of love and patience and when I had no one to sit with at lunch, she would call me in and I would sit and have lunch with her in her. Classroom and she would tell me how beautiful she thought my hair was or how people don't understand what a great friend I would be if they just gave me a chance. She gave me that bit of confidence.

Right now, in the teaching world, it's called banking time, right? You just spend a little bit of time with a student, but it does make a world of difference to them. So there were people in my life that truly, truly inspired me to be who I am and helped me through that journey to not becoming a bitter old woman.

Marie

Right, right, right.

Nura

I'll roll with the punches and I am happy and blessed with whatever God has given me, good or bad, in my life because with everything we learned we move forward.

Marie

Exactly, it's interesting because I've actually been to Greeley, CO.

Nura

Oh my gosh, what a small world.

Marie

My parents had friends that lived in Germany before I was born and he was a professor at whatever the college is.

Nura

The University of Northern Colorado?

Marie

So I still have a friend who's their son who I'm still friends with. I remember the smell from the meat packing.

So just going back a little bit, it's always so amazing to me to think about people who arrive here without speaking any English and how they, I mean, how did your parents do it, when they didn't speak any English.

Nura

So my dad tells me a funny story. So when he arrives the United States, he began taking English classes at CSU, Colorado State University and while he was there he walked into Moby Gym, an indoor arena gym. People were throwing the shot put so he went up to the guy and he was wearing slacks and a button up shirt and dress boots. Back then in the 70s, early 80s men used to wear those boots with the heels and he was wearing those boots. He points to the shot put and gestures the throwing sign. And the guy goes “you?” and he starts laughing and the coach comes by and at the at the time, who was the coach? It was Tom Tellez and who is now the head coach of the Olympic track and field team. He was there.

So the coach comes. And he's like what's going on, who's this giant? You know my dad was 6’5’ at the time; he was about a 280 pounds of pure muscle and my dad makes the gesture how to throw the shot put so the coach goes OK, go ahead, go ahead. So my dad takes the shot put and he throws it and he breaks the school’s indoor record. He breaks it up better now without even trying, and the coaches just flip out. They're like, Oh my God, what's your name, what's your name and my dad? Like I have no idea what you're saying. They start running around, you know, and they're saying who speaks this man's language? They run into the International School and they said, you know what language is he speaking? And someone says he's speaking Arabic, and so they bring someone over and they say hey talk to this guy and my dad tells him, “oh I'm from Libya, and I'm a shot putter and I'm an Olympian and they're like Oh my goodness. And he's like 35 and that's really old for that world. But my father was, I guess, a late boomer. I mean he had five kids already and he wasn't a late bloomer, but he just was really strong and is still strong and he ended up getting a full ride scholarship for shot put and discus.

Well, trying to learn he had this other student that basically became his translator throughout his schooling and slowly but surely he understood English. The only words he knew at the time were yes, nom stopm and meet me and you know that's all he knew. Just with time he learned and for us kids we learned before him. One of my brothers learned English in like 3 months. You know, we ended up helping as much as possible and when I was nine years old, I actually filled in all of my parents immigration documents. I filled in all the paperwork I did all of that stuff at 9 years old and that's because I could read and I could write. It took a while and my father went from absolutely no English to earning a Ph.D. He's come a long way and he's a very, very hard worker and you know, we took that from him. All of us siblings are very hard workers. And my mother was an unbelievably supportive and loving and patient woman who helped him every step of the way and helped us become decent human beings.

And that's how you do it, right? And I find that also with the refugees I work with. You know the kids are unbelievably resilient and so smart and such survivalists and they quickly learn the language, which helps us when we work with the families and that's how we do it. You know, I relate a lot to the kids that come to this country.

Marie

I'm sure you do, but I hear people making statements about people who are immigrants or refugees and claiming that they should be speaking English. I just feel so angry because so many refugees and immigrants speak so many languages too, like it's infuriating.

Nura

I feel you. Yes, when people say this to me, I say OK, imagine if you were forcibly removed from this country thrown into, let's say, Yugoslavia, and expected to not only learn the language, but understand the transportation system, the medical system, the educational system, the political system, the house system all within a few months. If you're lucky to even have help. My parents came and they actually had nobody. They had nobody. They had to figure this out on their own and my father was lucky enough to walk in to that gym.

I do believe in Destiny and I do believe in fate, but I also believe that when people are given certain circumstances, you either sink or swim and refugees and immigrants that come to this country so many of them are forced to come here, they don't have a choice otherwise. And so it's hard enough for them to live their lives without people berating and disrespecting them. But they survive and they make it and they end up learning English on top of the three or four or maybe five other languages they already know, because these people have had to move from country to country just to survive. And so you know, when you give this scenario, people are like, you know what, I don't think I could do that. And I was like, well, that's what makes you lucky. That's what gives you privilege, you know? So count your blessings and move on.

Marie

Let's talk a little bit about your background. You have a very thick resume there you have at least one patent under your name. So could you tell our listeners about your educational and professional backgrounds?

Nura

So my educational background is I went to the University of Northern Colorado and I got my master’s degree in human biology with an emphasis in opioid pharmacology and while there I helped develop a drug that is currently in the human testing phases at Pfizer. And of course, by now your name is off of it, right? I no longer have any claim to fame in terms of money or anything like that for this drug. I do have claim to fame in that I did help create this drug and it's a drug that's actually 10,000 times more potent than morphine and does not have any of the side effects of morphine, so I don't know where it is in terms of the process, it is a very long process to get a drug passed through the FDA and through all the testing. But I do hope that one day it will be used because it will change the medical world in terms of addiction and dependence on medications, especially pain medications like you know what we currently have available like morphine?

Marie

Oh my gosh.

Nura

So you know, that was a long time ago and I still have a strong science background. I've been a science teacher for a very long time, but this year I became the principal at a school at the Islamic School of Portland, and it's a very different role and it's very hard for me to step out of the teacher role and into the administrative role. I miss teaching a lot, but every once in a while I'll get a chance because a kiddo will come and ask me for help and I'm like Oh yes, yes I can help you. 

I also over the years founded several organizations. My 2 most successful have been daughters of Eve and Sons of Adam, youth-based organizations where we work on empowering Muslim youth to become active members of society. That's through civic engagement, volunteerism, you know, different forms of education and work, and the whole idea is to that claim that identity of who they are, as you are a Muslim, you are an American. You are French, you are Canadian. Whatever it is. At the end of the day you are an individual who can make an impact on this world by taking the right steps to learn how to do it and it also creates safe spaces for Muslim youth who do struggle with their identities and do struggle with acceptance and just a place for them to talk and be with other kids that are like them.

And then I also created co-founded the Portland Refugee Support Group and I'm very excited to say that we just officially hired our first full-time ED; he started on Monday, actually November 1st was his first day and it was an unbelievably tedious process. We had over 300 applications yes, and he is incredible. His name is Peter and he's the former vice president now of United Way in Arizona. So he'll be coming here soon. 

We have made unbelievable strides in helping refugee clients and what we do is post resettlement work. So after the resettlement agencies are done with what they're doing, we kind of step in and take over, and we have four different umbrellas that we work under. We have the community aid; we help people with their rent, utilities, maybe medical bills, a car repair? Learning how to drive something you know of that nature. 

Then we have community wellness which is our mental health piece. We are a trauma informed organization. We're trying to be where we actually implement trauma training in all of our work and we are doing that with the different programs that we run. But we have monthly psychosocial potlucks. Different types of therapy opportunities. We have summer camps and summer reading programs for kids, which is a wonderful, wonderful thing and we have different activities for families. 

Then we have community classroom and community classroom works really hard one on one with refugees to learn English. Whether it's homework help, ESL conversational English, we have different opportunities for refugees to improve their English skills in a faster way because it is on a one on one basis and then the bread and butter of this organization is our community connections, and that's where we match volunteers with families, and they become that direct liaison. But more importantly, and we have a saying, sit down for a cup of tea. We tell them form a relationship based on friendship and trust that will last a lifetime. So even if they're no longer volunteers with our organization, they will remain friends with that family. 

Hopefully that's our goal and we have seen that over and over again with the clients that we serve and the volunteers come and volunteer with us and so we found a lot of success with the work that we do when it comes to our clients working towards self sufficiency. And that's what what our goal is. That's part of our mission. You know self sufficiency means different things to different people. For us it means OK. Are you happy where you are?Are you making enough money? Is your income enough for you to be happy? Is this where you want to be? Is your education where you want to be? Is your family life your mental health, your career? Is your financial wellness is it where you want it to be? And in order to get there, we partnered with an organization called Empath that they're out of Boston and they created a trauma, informed evidence based program that helps you work with clients to help lead them to financial self sufficiency. But their program is geared towards single women, single moms, lots of whom are homeless or becoming homeless. And so what we're doing is we're adapting that model to work specifically with refugees, and then even more specifically, refugees from different regions of the world, because their ideas about what self sufficiency is different.

So we're really excited about developing the organization more and the entire goal is helping these refugees, and we also work with asylum seekers, helping them with giving them that kind of just a little boost. And a step in right direction early on. That guidance that my family never got and so it took us decades more time to purchase a home. To understand how to finance a car to do those kind of things. Right where we are working with our clients very early on about how things work in America. You don't have to figure it out alone. We're going to help you figure it out, and once you've figured it out, you're going to be better educated to make better decisions for your family. 

And it's a very time consuming, exhausting job. But it's worth every minute because we do see the positive changes in our clients.

Marie

And I love the way that you have used your own personal experiences to power this organization. How long ago was it founded?

Nura

So we're actually entering our 6th year. But I'm going to tell you I'm very proud of the work we've done, and we've received a lot of recognition for the work we've done because I think I want to, just, you know, be honest and say my lived experiences have helped cut out all the unnecessary time used to figure out how to help people? Because I have lived through what these people have lived through. I have lived through war. I have lived through trauma. I have lived through chaos. I have lived through fleeing. I have lived through immigration. I have lived through the process. It's very easy to say guys, that's not going to help.

Marie

Yes, yes.

Nura

This is what they need. They don't need yoga right now. Right? What they need is food. They need to feel safe. They need a job. They need someone who's going to understand their culture, their faith their language. This is what they need, and so that's how we started. We started with that matching of people that were in the same situation. That could really connect to the client you know and just help them move forward, and then those who didn't have the lived experiences had to go through pretty intensive training to feel what these people might be feeling. That really helped save a lot of time.

Marie

Shifting gears a little bit; tell us about your family and your lovely daughters.

Nura

So I'm I'm married to probably, I mean, I'm just going to say the most perfect man in the world. I absolutely love and adore him. He's so supportive, so patient, so kind. He's a psychiatrist and he's been able to help me a lot because he helped develop the trauma informed way in which we work and then I have three beautiful girls. I have a senior in high school that's about to graduate and I told her, gosh, I just want to lock you in a room and never let you go anywhere because I'm so scared. You know she's about to leave home. She's about to go off to this new address. And it's just so scary as a mom and you and I just look at her face and remember her when she was five years old. You know when she used to just sing and dance in the in the living room or dress up like a princess or a fairy. And now she's freaking out about her SAT scores. Or you know where she's going to apply and all these things you know. Just seeing her become a woman has not been easy.

You know it's not been easy and then I have a 10th grader who's ever been a firecracker and she doesn't know what she wants to do with her life but really, she's an unbelievable artist and a photographer, and I see her heading in that direction, but I don't think she realizes that yet.

And then I have my youngest who is absolutely my baby and she just turned 12 and she's in the 7th grade. She keeps us young and she's the most kiddish of our three kids. She still loves to play. She's very smart. She's very wise. She's very brave. I'm very, very blessed and I pray every day that God protects them. They definitely keep me busy and on my toes. But they're good girls. They're very, very good girls.And then I have 4 cats, wow, and so three of the cats are boys, so they are my sons and we have a female cat. She's a tortoiseshell calico, very hornery, so you can't have another female in the house. So yes, so we have three boys and two of them are brothers and one of them is a 6-month-old kitten. And he is just a handful. My goodness, he's destroyed my house five times over, but they're fun. And, you know, Mocha, the oldest, the female. She is definitely the queen and she keeps them in line. But my house is quite full. And that's my family. They're the ones that fill my heart and they fill my cup and especially, you know, when my days are hard and they remind me how blessed I am so.

Marie

Yes, your daughters are just full of this wonderful positive energy that I love.

Nura

I'm very lucky. 

Marie

Yes, they're really sweet. So let’s talk a little about how you’ve seen attitudes towards people who are Muslim shift hile you've been here in the US. So there was 9/11 when there was the 2016 election. How have you seen xenophobia discrimination toward you and your family wax and wane through your lifetime here?

Nura

You know that's such a great question. You know, 9/11 was not easy for any Muslim and the worst part was for years and years and years being expected to apologize on behalf of the entire Muslim world for what happened. And you know, as Muslims, those acts and I have my own theories about 9/11 which we won't go into. But as Muslims those acts of terror, any acts of terror are absolutely forbidden, and so for people to tie any acts of terror to the religion is really horrible on so many levels. Because what happens is you end up tying it to individuals who practice that religion. And so after 9/11 was really hard. 

I actually got married right after 9/11 and I remember I had police cars and police that were outside of the wedding patrolling because my father had many friends in government and they're the ones who told him, you know, Omar, you should not have this wedding without security because people know you and they know you're Muslim and they might use it as an opportunity to hurt you. The Islamic Center in Greeley has been shot at probably an average of four times a year since 9/11 yes, and we're very blessed and thankful that no one's ever been hurt. But, you know, Colorado is still a very racist state. Unfortunately, right? And then you know, a few years after, probably about 10 years after 9/11, you know things would die down for a bit and then the anniversary would come and spike again. But over time it got a little better and then Trump got into office and Trump just reignited that anti Islamic Islamophobic sentiment.

I hate the word Islamophobia because that means fear of Islam and that's not what it is. It's a hate of Islam. It's a hate of what's different. It's not a fear, you know when people fear things they don't necessarily hate them. They might try to avoid them. They might try to understand them, but they don't necessarily hate them. On the other hand, people absolutely hate Islam and they hate people who practice that religion and they show it daily. I experience it daily still here, even in liberal Oregon. We don't even go into Southern Oregon anymore and in some parts of Eastern Oregon as well.

You know, it's sad, people you think they're normal, but as soon as somebody eggs them on like what Trump did is all of a sudden everything they had buried inside just comes out and their true vile nature shows and it just is so hurtful, like why do you hate me when you don't even know me? You've never even said hello to me. You've never asked me my name. How could you just hate somebody simply by the way they look or the faith that they practice or where they come from? 

For me, I cannot understand that. I cannot comprehend that because I cannot hate anybody.  Even if people do things, I still don't hate the person. I might hate their actions, but I don't hate the individual. I don't hate the human being. We are all creations of God. We are all human beings. We all deserve the right to live in peace. The right to feel, love, the right to feel safe, but I on a daily basis don't feel safe because the environment that we live in has changed so much and you have Trump and his followers on one side and then you have the Black Lives Matter movement and then you have the me too movement and then you have cancel culture and then you have everything else COVID and everything else that has just really happened within the last few years. 

People are emotional. Truly and psychologically exhausted, and you're trying to balance all of these things. The right versus the left versus the middle. It's too much and throwing COVID in there. What COVID did was it taught people how not to be human. People forgot manners. People forgot social construct, in terms of like what's acceptable, what's not and just in terms of regular old behavior like oh thank you please you know. Yes, open the door. Yes, be polite. Things like that, then on top of that you have all these strong emotional forces that have created very deep feelings in human beings and then nobody has the tools to deal with those feelings. So they just lash out, right? 

And that's what I'm seeing from both sides of the spectrum. And it's causing a lot of conflict and a lot of pain that not all of it can be settled with a nice conversation over a cup of tea, that's for sure, but the violence I have seen, particularly from the right, has been so scary, so scary and it you just don't know. You know, I try to be as in the middle of possible, but I definitely lean more left. I don't take my kids downtown anymore, you know I don't engage in certain conversations anymore because I know off the get go I'm at a disadvantage and so when you look at just human beings in general during this time it's really sad, especially for our youth to understand what's going on and what to believe and what not to believe or what to feel or what not to feel and I don't know when we're going to get out of that. I don't know when that's gonna end.

I do believe in God. I do have strong faith and he has been my compass. He has been my guiding light. He is what's gotten me through all of the trauma that we faced over the last few years, but you know, I pray for this world. I pray for the Earth that's suffering. I pray for the people that are suffering. I pray for the people who are oppressed and abused and neglected. And I also pray for the people who are just ignorant. They don't know any better. I'm not going to say they're naive, but they're definitely ignorant to the possibility of billions of people in this world that are absolutely incredible human beings, but they'll never give them a chance to get to know them because of what they've been taught or how they grow up or whatever leader they happened to be following at the time.

Marie

I feel so horrible for you that you don't feel safe. I understand that you don't feel safe, but I feel horrible. I think you know that you're in that position. It's really just really awful.

Nura

Yeah, it's you know the reality of life and you know you just gotta deal with it and move on. Right?

Marie

Yeah, well, that's a good segue to my next question, which is what do you love most about being Muslim and what do you find most challenging? You may have already said the most challenging part.

Nura

That's a great question. I actually had a woman tell me once, well, you're educated. Why are you Muslim? Why would you practice a religion that oppresses women? And I literally said to her, if you only knew the thing I love the most about being a Muslim woman is the fact of what the religion does in terms of honoring women. Islam gives women her full set of rights and allows a woman to live as a free person. Where nobody can tell her or dictate to her how to live her life. We live our lives based on what God has taught us, not what man has taught us. While Europe was having conversations about whether or not women had a soul and whether or not her soul was good or evil, Muslim women had full set of rights. They could own land. They could vote, they could lead an army. They could could marry who they chose. You know people have twisted the facts so much that they made it look like women are oppressed in this faith, when in reality I am extremely empowered and extremely powerful.

I have many things that God gave that gives me the control over my own life, right where nobody else can dictate to me what I should or should not do. Because God has already done that. So who are you to come tell me what to do when God has already told me what to do, so that's something that I absolutely adore about being a Muslim and a Muslim woman. I also love that this faith really teaches love and kindness and tolerance and dedication and peace and love. And you know, just all the things that make this world a better place from being good stewards to our planet, to animals to making sure that every human life is treated as sacred. That is all in my faith and that is why I love my faith.

The hardest thing about practicing my faith is actually not the way people treat me. Probably the hardest thing about practicing my faith is sometimes there are certain things that are allowed and are not allowed, and I respect that 100%. But this is funny and I think it's silly also. But I love tattoos and I've always wanted to get it home. Yes, yes. Really, I do. I think they're beautiful and I've always wanted to get a tattoo, but because they are forbidden in Islam, I will respect that law. I will respect it and I will not get a tattoo, but what's funny is every time I see one that I really love, I'm like, gosh, that would look great on my shoulder, you know or something like that. It's silly right? 

Marie

Not silly at all.

Nura

Yeah, but it's you know, sometimes there are things that are not allowed in my faith and sometimes you just want to be, I wonder what that would be like. But because I am a person of faith, I understand that whether or not I understand the reason behind why God has forbidden something, I will respect it wholeheartedly and I will not break that code and you know, lower my respect or, you know, have God see me any differently than trying to be the best Muslim that I can be. So other than that, you know life in general is just hard whether you're a Muslim or not.

I think the beautiful thing is my faith helps me deal with the hardships in my life in a much more pleasant way than those who don't have faith. I really believe that.

Marie

You know there are a lot of really good temporary tattoos?

Nura

Well, that's good to know girl, let me try them out.

Marie

I think that in the last probably 5 to 10 years, they've really improved temporary tattoos, so that would be a fun thing to try out maybe?

Nura

Well, maybe. That would be fun, yeah.

Marie

Yes, so yeah, so one of the things I've heard you talk about is, for our listeners, you wear a full hijaab yet I've also heard you call yourself a feminist, so can you talk a little bit about your experience about wearing hijab? What that means to you and what does feminism mean to you? And how do they go together?

Nura

You know what? People don't realize is Islam is very much a feminist faith and the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was also a feminist. To me, a feminist is someone who fights for the rights of women and fights for them in a way that gives them their own dignity in their own self respect. So before Islam, women were treated like slaves. They were treated like property. They were treated like they were actually owned as property. You know they weren't allowed to have any kind of money they weren't allowed to work. They weren't allowed to speak. They weren't allowed to do anything. When Islam came it gave women its full set of rights. It made them free and what people don't understand about the hijab. 

One of the symbols of wearing hijab is actually to identify a free woman versus a woman who was owned at the time, whether it was referred to as concubines or indentured servants or anything else.Women at that time were traded like a commodity, and so Islam when a woman wore hijab, she was telling the world I am a free woman. You cannot touch me. You cannot tell me what to do. You cannot touch my wealth. 

The most powerful individual in the Middle East in what's now today Saudi Arabia, the most wealthy individual, the most powerful individual at the time, was a woman named Khadija. She was a business owner. She was the wealthiest in town and she was one of the most beautiful women in in that area at the time and men coveted her, they wanted her. They wanted her for her wealth. They wanted her for her stature. That's what they wanted, but she ended up asking the Prophet Muhammad to marry her. She asked him. He didn't ask her, so this is what Islam gave to women. This is what you know our faith gave to women and it gave them that feeling of empowerment that I am an individual who is allowed to live her life. The way that God has ordained for her to live that life, and that is that as a free person and people don't understand how powerful that is, you cannot objectify me. You cannot use me. You cannot touch me. You cannot do anything to me or my property without my permission. That is what Islam did for women.

And so for me, just as a current feminist is, I actually have to re-educate Muslims about what women are in our faith. You know, tell men, oh no, I'm sorry you can't prevent your wife from doing this. You actually have to provide your wife with your money. Her money is her money. You can't touch it and guess what your money is her money too. That's what Islam says because it's your duty to make sure that you provide and care for your wife if you choose to get married. A woman does not have to get married. She is not forced into marriage. She can choose who she wants to marry, in fact so so many different stereotypes are created about Islam that came from movies and from Hollywood and from whatever that unfortunately also spread into Muslim countries and so Muslims in general have just forgotten because they're not practicing their faith like they should be practicing their faith. They have forgotten what women are, who they are to God.

A saying in our tradition is that heaven is under the feet of mothers, right? Women are highly coveted in Islam. They are compared to a hidden gem or a hidden pere they might be, you know, covered from the outside because of the way we dress, but inside is something very valuable. We are taught to look at women for who they are. Are how they think what they believe you have to listen to them and get to know them as a person and not judge them on what you see on the outside. That's what hijab means to me. That's what feminism means to me. It means I am a woman. Hear me roar and don't touch me. Plain and simple.

Marie

That's very powerful. It just makes me also think about how similar Islam is to Christianity with these extremes. People who are not following the path of our prophets, you know, because if you look at who they were, both Mohammed and Jesus and how they treated women, it's very different than how some of their followers act.

Nura

Absolutely, absolutely.

Marie

And also some of the writers of the Bible you know, and so that's a really important message. I love it so I just have a couple more questions. One of them is you talked a little bit about sending off your oldest daughter. I can totally relate to that feeling, but you have a special feeling because you've got daughters who are wearing the hijab and who are discriminated against outright? Well, I have white boys, right? So it's very different. So it must be doubly or quadruply hard to send your daughters out into the world.

What are the most important messages that you want your daughters and the children you teach to take out into the world as they grow up.

Nura

That is such a great question, and for years and years and years I have hopefully instilled in my daughters faith in the power of believing in yourself and having confidence in who you are as an individual aside from faith, aside from education aside from anything, just that belief in who you are as a human being. When you truly believe it in your mind and in your heart it shows it shows in your actions it shows on your face. It shows in the very way that you walk right, and if you are that person that loves yourself and has confidence in yourself but is not arrogant. 

And is not cocky. That's very important. You know there's a very fine line to walk there when you have that faith in yourself. There's nothing that you cannot accomplish if you set your mind to it, and no matter where you go in the world you're gonna face struggle, you're gonna face obstacles. But it is that belief in yourself that you can overcome those things. That's going to make you successful and you gotta be smart, right?

We have a saying in Islam: The believer is aware and alert, so that's very important in today's world and I've taught my daughters know your surroundings. You know the people you talk to, know where you're going, how to get there, how to get home. Those are simple survival skills and I teach that to my girls. I teach that to the youth that I work with because we are at a disadvantage, we know there are people there out there that hate us simply for who we are and so to be prepared for any situation that can happen is going to just help my girls and the kids and the youth that I work with just get through life a little easier and they also know that mom is here. Baba is here. People who love you are here and when you need to back up when you fall and you need help getting up whatever it is, whatever situation you get into whatever trouble you get into people who love you will always be there for you to help you along the way, and so having that confidence that you're not alone is also very, very important.

Marie

And I will keep you in my prayers this coming year as you go through this process of letting go 'cause it is hard. You know my oldest one was easier 'cause he went to PLU in Tacoma. He was only 2 1/2 hours away, but it's hard when they go far. 

Nura

Yeah, it is hard and like she's applying to Harvard and just colleges in Colorado and Canada and so we'll see what happens.

Marie

Yeah, I'm here for you when you need that support.

Nura

Thank you.

Marie

Yes, so my last question is, is there a story of grit and resilience that has been an inspiration for you in your life?

Nura

Honestly, my parents. I can't even pick one over the other one.  People don't know this about me, but we were homeless for six months. And to watch my parents struggle through. That was really hard, you know, not having food to eat. Not having warmth to sleep in, I remember when we were younger we were all huddled up together in coats and socks. Trying to sleep under tons of blankets because it was so cold and my mother crying, praying you know, asking God for help like how are we gonna get out of this right? And my father, sitting, thinking I remember him just sitting and staring, thinking like what am I gonna do? And you know what they got out of it and they taught us that no matter how hard life get there's always a way out if you don't give up, you cannot give up because if you give up then you've lost.

I thank God almighty because all of us are very successful in our lives and we're happy. We have our traumas. We have our PTSD so we have issues like everybody else, but I gotta tell you, we are a lot better off than a lot of people because we faced our demons and we chose to fight them rather than ignore them. And my parents taught me that my mother taught me the true meaning of love, patience, and perseverance. My father taught me the true meaning of grit of fighting of not giving up. 

When I went to Colorado to visit them this summer, for the first time in my life I saw my parents as aging and it was very very hard for me. Very hard for me. It got to a point where I wanted to move back just to take care of them and my parents are my superheroes. They are my heroes. They are the people I look up to and to see them losing that energy and that light that has kept them going for so many years now. They've been married for 50 years, 51 years. It's really hard and they've been through a lot. They could probably write volumes of books. My dad actually did write his autobiography, but I told him like our life would be an Academy Award winning movie because you can't make this stuff up.

When you tell people these stories, they're like what? How that's impossible? No, it's not impossible. This is what happens to humans all over the world. You know, we live in this cushy bubble here in the United States of America, and we don't really see reality COVID help some people see the reality of what life is like when everything is shut down. And when you know you start fearing for your life. But this is a normal thing in a lot of the parts of the world. I thank God every day for my parents. And what they're able to teach me, and they're the true definition of grit, sacrifice, and perseverance and success.

Marie

What a life are you have led. What a story.

Nura

Oh gosh, thank you so much for letting me share it.

Marie

Oh yeah, it's incredible. It's just been wonderful to hear more about you. And yeah, you're such an inspiration.

Nura

Oh gosh, thank you Marie for this. Honestly Marie, you're just such a ball of sunshine and you're so positive and loving and welcoming. Everyone at Spirit of Grace is really but I'm so glad that I met you there and that we have become friends and just make sure you tell Kieran how proud I am of him because think he's doing awesome.

Marie

I think so fondly to that time when you came to the youth group. That was just really moving and the fact that your daughter hadn't been around any non Muslim kids, that was such a powerful evening, so yeah.

Nura

Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate that you gave us an opportunity and to share your space and it meant a lot and was very humbling and I appreciate every second of it. So thank you so much.

Marie

I appreciate you too. Hopefully we can see each other in person before too much time passes.

Nura

I would love that.