Women with Cool Jobs
Women with Cool Jobs
Chief Medical Examiner Helps Protect the Living By Solving the Mysteries of How People Died, with Dr. Deirdre Amaro of the Utah Office of the Medical Examiner
Dr. Deirdre Amaro, the Chief Medical Examiner of the Utah Office of the Medical Examiner (OME), believes in the strong ties between solving the mysteries of how people die and how this critical work helps to protect the living.
She has a unique role in that she actively does the post-mortem exam, looks at things under a microscope, and analyzes toxicology results while also stepping into her executive role and managing recruiting, hiring, training, and day-to-day operations. She is an amazing example of doing this AND being that -- her job requires completely different skill sets, and she is doing them all. She is living into the "Yes, And" philosophy!
Dr. Deirdre oversees the centralized, state-wide medical examiner system for the entire state of Utah. Her and her team investigate all sudden, unexpected, violent, suspicious, or unattended deaths that happen in the state. This means they determine:
- Cause of death (the injury, illness, or disease that made the person die) and
- Manner of death (the general category of death, including natural, accident, homicide, suicide, or undetermined)
Dr. Deirdre Amaro is a quadruple-certified physician in:
- anatomic pathology, clinical pathology, forensic pathology, and neuropathology
Before this role, she worked as a forensic pathologist since 2016 in multiple states and a variety of medical examiner systems.
This is a fascinating interview with an incredibly dedicated, smart woman who helps advocate for both the dead and the living through her work.
Contact Info:
Dr. Deirdre Amaro - Guest
Dr. Deirdre Amaro (LinkedIn)
Julie Berman - Host
www.womenwithcooljobs.com
@womencooljobs (Instagram)
Julie Berman (LinkedIn)
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With autopsy, I get to see the heart connected to the lungs connected to everything. I see how it's still all connected together, and I love that. Now there's no heartbeat, so there's no electrical activity, and I can't do certain other measurements, but I can see how everything is connected together. And I get to pull in the patient's social history, their medical history, toxicology, histology. Try to pull together all these different pieces to capture the best story of why this person died, and I find that very satisfying.
Julie Berman - Host:Hey everybody. I'm Julie, and welcome to Women with cool jobs. Each episode will feature women with unique, trailblazing and innovative careers. We'll talk about how she got here, what life is like now, and actionable steps that you can take to go on a similar path or one that's all your own. This podcast is about empowering you. It's about empowering you to dream big and to be inspired, you'll hear from incredible women in a wide variety of fields, and hopefully some that you've never heard of before, women who build robots and roadways, firefighters, C suite professionals, surrounded by men, social media mavens, entrepreneurs and More. I'm so glad we get to go on this journey together. Hello everybody. This is Julie Berman, and welcome to another episode of women with cool jobs. So today I have such a cool guest in. It's this type of episode in, this type of guest with a really cool job that I never would have thought to bring onto the podcast, like who I maybe didn't even know existed, and I get so excited like this is when I get so excited to be able to bring this type of this type of cool job and the experience of this amazing woman to you and to show you what's possible. So today, the guest is Dr Deirdre Amaru. She is the chief medical examiner of the Utah office of the medical examiner, which is ome for short, and she oversees the centralized statewide medical examiner system for the entire state of Utah. And so this is a really fascinating conversation, because, essentially, she talks about how she helps tell the story of the person who died. She, you know, like everyone in on her team, and she herself, they are problem solvers. They are trying to figure out the puzzle pieces and the really fascinating part of this. And she talks about this, which is, which is something that I had not, I would not have come to this conclusion. But it sounds like it is out there is that, like a lot of times, people who are in her role of medical examiner, or people who are in that industry, that people don't who are doing that, that they really don't want to work with living people, and so they're doing this work with dead people. And I think that's such an interesting thing to talk about and to share, and that actually it's quite a fallacy. It's like something that's completely untrue, because she talks about the reason, this huge underlying reason, for why she feels so strongly about the work that she does, working with people who who have died and and looking at how they died and and looking at some of the things that caused it in the situation, and in doing this really hard, really important work, is because they actually really are so passionate about helping those who are still living, and she talks about how she sees this, this role as a huge part of actually positively benefiting the public health systems and solving problems that come up that her and her colleagues see over time, because they are able to connect us. And she did mention offline, I believe that it that it was really interesting in in the early, I think it was early 80s, and like the very end of 1970s they actually had someone who's in a similar, like a similar job, who is a medical examiner, who kept realizing that, why were they seeing all these these infant deaths, and when it came to car crashes, and so that's how infant car seats actually were developed. It was because someone saw that there was a trend, and they were able to connect the dots and say, oh my gosh, this is a problem. Let's do something to keep these young, these young little people safe. And that's how car seats got invented. So it's really fascinating that she has this, this viewpoint of like, understanding how people die, actually. Actually helps her and her colleagues serve the living in such a bigger way. And I loved that perspective. I would have never put that together, and I think it's so critical. As you hear her talk about her cool job and the work that she does and the work that her colleagues do, it's such an interesting thread to pick up on. And she has so many, so many incredible degrees and other credits to her name. She's so so smart, so I want to brag about her here. And the other interesting thing about her story is that she originally started out and she she was thinking about being a pediatrician, and so you can hear her reason for, actually, why she ended up going into this field and some of the different pieces of her job like her job because she is in this, like chief, you know, right, this executive level role, she actually has some of the people management and organizational management functions that are part of her job. But then she actually still also does the function of the medical examiner, which is a super hands on role where she's actually, like with, I mean, she's examining bodies of people who've who've passed, and doing autopsies and all these different things in that. And so it's really, really, I mean, it's, it's really mind blowing, actually, like I knew nothing about, about this career, um, and so it was really wonderful to hear. And the other thing that I just wanted to share really briefly, you'll hear some of it in the interview, but I just wanted to say it at the outset is that to her, her job in like specifically, her her office, the ome office of the medical examiner for Utah, they investigate all sudden, unexpected violence, suspicious or unattended deaths that happen in the state of Utah. They're trying to find out how did people die? So this can include determining the cause of death, the manner of death. So it's like, you know, was it an injury, an illness, and was it natural? Was it an accident? Was it a homicide? And again, like everything for them, links back to this idea of public health and to benefit the living. So such a really, really wonderful episode for for so many reasons, I loved having this conversation because it was it's just something that I don't know. I never imagined that I would be doing. And yet it exists, and she exists, and her work is so critical. They're doing such important work, and her and her and her colleagues like you can hear how passionate she is about her job. So enjoy this episode with Dr Deirdre, and thank you so much for being here if you haven't yet and you have Spotify where you're listening or you're listening on Apple podcasts, please. Please do me a huge favor, scroll to where you can write a review. Submit a review takes like, one or two minutes, and also, if you're loving it, give me a five star rating. It just shares this out with the world to even more people, showing what women are doing now, showing what's possible. And I really appreciate it so much. So enjoy this episode, and thank you so much for taking your time to be here. Alright, hello, everybody. We are here on another episode of women with cool jobs, and I have such a wonderful guest today. I'm so excited to have her on. Her name is Dr Deirdre Amaro. She is the chief medical examiner of the Utah office of the medical examiner, and this means that she oversees the entire statewide medical examiner system for the state of Utah, which is almost an 85,000 mile area, so you have a huge responsibility that you have, like under this job, and also I love and we're going to talk about this, because I think this is so fascinating. But when we chatted before and I learned some of the details of your of your job, because I really knew nothing about this. I thought it was so fascinating how you're also truly so passionate about how you and your team, how you guys, actually benefit the health of the living and so I really thought that was such a beautiful emphasis, because it wasn't obvious to me. So we're definitely going to talk about that. So I want to say, and I'm going to share more in the intro about kind of the details and the nuances that we don't get to in this interview. But can you give us, like, in a nutshell, how do you describe your job? Like, what would you say if there was someone who's asking you, and they're like, I have no clue what you do? How would you explain in in layman's terms and basic terms, like, what? What is your cool job? Yes,
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:well, thank you so much for having me on a podcast. This was pretty cool for my end as well. Frankly, my answer really depends on my audience. So most of the time when people just casually ask me, what I do, I just say, Oh, I work for the state. I. And Julie is very good at deflecting any further questions, because that sounds so boring. In certain audiences where I know it's acceptable and will be receivable, I say, Oh, I kind of dead people, just to sound a little bit creepy. But then if someone's interested like you and wants to have more of a real answer, I would say that I am a doctor who is specifically trained to determine cause of death and manner of death based on post mortem, after death examinations, okay, or in other words, figure out why somebody died,
Julie Berman - Host:yeah. And I think that's so interesting that you in your job like have to vary your response. And so maybe we can talk about that a little bit on just depending right on your audience. Because I think, you know, it is interesting when I, when I first saw like, like, you and your your job come through, I was like, oh, like, I don't know how to have this conversation. I've never had a conversation that actually involves death in this way, and it's but for me, who's like, kind of squeamish, you know, honestly, it's like, I was like, Oh, this is a really interesting conversation to have, but also it's such an important conversation to have, because you and and the work you do and the people you work with play such a really important part in so many things. I think that maybe, like those of us in everyday life who are not aware of what you do besides just watching perhaps a television show, which I'm sure is not super, super accurate for sure, yeah, so we don't have the full view of what you do. So I'm just really honored to have this, this conversation. And before we jump in, I do want to mention, like, a few other things that I think might be helpful that that you had shared earlier, just to give people, kind of like an understanding of in a little bit more depth of like, what you do. And then we're going to jump in so you investigate all sudden, unexpected, violent, suspicious or attended deaths that happen in the state of Utah. And as you mentioned, you try to find out how people died, and you determine the cause of death, so like the injury, the illness, the disease that made the person die, and the manner of death, which includes, like, a category like a natural like a natural cause, an accident, homicide, suicide, are undetermined, and so I, I am really interested in for you, because you do this job, and you do talk about how it affects public health. Like, let's start a little bit there, and then we're going to go back and kind of like, talk about how you got here. But I think that's a beautiful place to start, because that, like we said in the beginning, it's kind of like two pieces of I know how you think of your work, but that aren't necessarily, maybe obvious to people who are listening, or people who who know about even your job. So how do you consider this area of what you do, and how does it benefit the living.
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:Yes, I love talking about this, because as you, as you so correctly pointed out, most people don't think about this aspect of what we do in the medical examiner's office, but really, I would pulling a number out of somewhere, say that over 90% of what we do is for the living, not so much for the dead. So let me try to explain, right? So when we're figuring out how someone died, the for the dead person is trying to tell their story, right? But then figuring out why somebody died also helps the family. Why did their loved one died, what happened to them? I can potentially provide that sense of closure also, as many of us might be aware, so many of the diseases that affect living patients have genetic causes. And so when you go to the doctor and they ask you, alright, what's your family history? You know, did your mother have breast cancer? Did your father have colon cancer? So At what ages, etc, when we do an autopsy sometime, which is a very thorough doctor's exam, basically, it's a physical exam with a surgical exam. Sometimes we encounter a hidden cancer that the person may have had, so it may not have killed them, but the fact that they had it becomes very important information for their surviving family members, because that could potentially raise their own increased risk of having that cancer, and if they know about this, then they can potentially get the appropriate screening from their healthcare providers and catch it early and not die of that cancer on a bigger, regional and even national level, when we fill out a death certificate, when we come up With the cause of death and manner of death determinations, why somebody died. That is a medical diagnosis, and like every medical diagnosis, it gets turned into a it's called an ICD 10 code, and that gets turned into mortality data, which is housed at the national level. And that mortality data is what drives public health intervention. When you see those reports about such and such was the leading cause of death? Well, that comes from the work we do. That comes from the death certificates. So we are seeing the terminal results of public health problems in our communities and in Utah, since we have a statewide medical examiner system, we are seeing the terminal results of public health problems for the entire state. And it goes beyond just, you know, hidden cancers, it's what drugs are killing people in our communities, and we're able to look further into that, why, where, who, how, and if we can figure out the why, then we have a greater chance of preventing it and preventing future deaths.
Julie Berman - Host:Wow. So it's almost like you're noticing trends or like through lines are connecting the dots as well for these, one
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:of our big goals to identify the to help identify those trends and what's killing people in our communities, with the idea being that we can help inform local groups, national groups, on what those issues are and help craft interventions that are successful in preventing those deaths.
Julie Berman - Host:Yeah, wow, that's really incredible. And thank you for kind of explaining that. It's usually opposite of how I do an interview. But I just thought in this case, it's like such a beautiful way to start to kind of see that, that aspect of it. So I want to go back. How did you get started in this field? Like, or how did you end up here? And because you have, you have multiple degrees, you have just, like, a lot of experience before this job. So I'd love to hear kind of like, what, what brought you here?
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:So I decided to go to medical school. Sort of from a lack of imagination, I didn't know what else to do. I knew I didn't want to go to business school or law school, and I had worked a couple years in a graduate school Physics Laboratory, and I thought, no, no. It seems that in graduate school you learn more and more about less and less. I much appreciate a broader understanding of things. So I went to medical school thinking, you want to be a pediatrician. Because I really like cute, colorful things, and I thought it'd be so much fun to dispense Snoopy band aids and do things like that. But pretty quickly, on in medical school, I realized that sick kids is not for me. Dying patients is not for me. I learned that when someone is suffering, that I feel that greatly, and it pains me. But in pathology and forensic pathology, my patients may have suffered before they can come to me, but once they come to me, they are no longer suffering because they're they're dead, yeah, and that is a huge difference for me personally. Yeah,
Julie Berman - Host:that's interesting. And did you always have, like, an interest in science and things growing up? Like, were you, I know, I had friends who got really excited when they got to dissect things, and I was the opposite. I was like, Please get me out of the room. But were you? Were you, like, always interested, even as a kid, in a young adult, okay,
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:yeah, so I've always been interested in internal structures and anatomy. I remember now going to some medical bookstore with my dad when I was very, very young, and got I asked him to get me skeleton skeletal anatomy flash cards. That's what I wanted. Oh
Julie Berman - Host:my gosh, that's amazing. How old do you think you were?
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:You're all mine. Ah,
Julie Berman - Host:I love that. That's incredible. And then so you have many a degree. So you are a physician who is quadruple certified in anatomic pathology, Clinical Pathology, forensic pathology and neuropathology. Can you give us the super basic version, for those of us who don't know what those terms mean, like, what does that mean? Because that's so amazing. I like, yeah, syllables
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:there exactly. So I'm a physician, so I have a medical degree, a doctorate in medicine, and then you may have heard of or seen the board certification. This physician is board certified and blah, blah, blah. So I am board certified in four different sub specialties. I'm board certified in anatomic pathology, which is mostly where learning how to diagnose diseases based on pieces and parts of patients, of live patients. I'm board certified in Clinical Pathology, which Clinical Pathology focuses on laboratory diagnosis, like running instruments in a lab, behind the scenes. Then forensic pathology is the subspecialty of medicine focusing on determining cause and manner of death based on post mortem examinations, like autopsies and the neuropathology is the subspecialty of medicine focusing on diseases and disorders of the brain. Okay, wow, I like to tell people I am uniquely. Qualified ready for the zombie apocalypse when it happens.
Julie Berman - Host:I love that. You are very unique. We uniquely qualified. So if it does happen, we know exactly who is to consult, right? Yes, Staley
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:from the medical examiner's offices, but give me a call. I'll help out. There
Julie Berman - Host:you go. We're hooked up with the right info. I love it. So that's amazing. So you have all this, like, incredible, incredible academic experience, and then how did you end up? Like, once you realized, you know, you were going through med school, you thought you wanted to be a pediatrician, and you're like, maybe not so much. And I do love for people who can't, who can't see you're wearing these, like, really adorable bright pink glasses with cute pink matching earrings, which I love. And notice first thing,
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:the brains and jars.
Julie Berman - Host:Oh my gosh, their brains and jars for the earrings. I love that so much. So tell us, like, what was that transition like? And then, knowing that you you you essentially didn't want to do this, this role as a pediatrician. How did you sort of find your way into this field? And then, like, what kinds of things did you do? Like, what did that look like to kind of narrow, narrow down this area? Because I feel like that probably was a very different thought process going into what you would think would be a pediatrician, and then going into this field,
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:yes. So most people, again, pulling a number out of somewhere, I would say that 99% of people who go to medical school go thinking they want to help treat live patients, right? So the whole concept of treating dead patients, but which is really helping on a public health level, isn't most people don't consider that at all, if you do, and props to them. So the way my medical school, four years of it was structured was the second year is when we really focused on learning pathology, the underlying basis of disease processes, and that felt like a really good fit for me for a couple reasons. One, like really understanding why something is happening, understanding what, what is this cancer? What does it look like? What it you know, we get to actually look at it in the microscope and kind of see it face to face in a weird sort of way. I thought that was fascinating. And I still love that. I also love that with pathology, we kind of were able to sit back and get in, collect a lot of information and think about it, and then issue a diagnosis that then drives clinical care. But it's not like a you're there with the patient in front of you, having to make a snap decision. That doesn't work from my brain so much, but then around third or fourth year of medical school, we're all supposed to decide what kind of residency training program we want to go to. We have to decide. So, you know, family medicine, pediatrics, general surgery, dermatology, radiology, pathology, blah, blah, blah, all these different options that we have to decide which one we want to spend the next, however many years of our life focusing on so when I was in at that point in my med school career, I was trying to decide between a surgical sub specialty, because I really enjoy working with my hands, psychiatry, because I really enjoy Crazy people, and then pathology sort of the underlying basis of all understanding disease and disease processes. So ultimately, of course, I went with pathology because I realized it had everything I needed. I think, with autopsies and pathology, it's a very hands on surgical process. So that served that sort of need of mine. I joke flippantly that, yeah, so in pathology, I don't treat crazy people, but I just work with crazy people, so that satisfies that need of mine. But it was, it was a difficult decision to make, also, from the standpoint of, do I really want to not treat live patients, because isn't that what a real doctor is? But I'm over that by now.
Julie Berman - Host:Yeah. And so once you got through med school, then you did a residency, and then after you did resin residency, I'd love to kind of hear just like, even a quick overview, like, what were some of the jobs that you had before, you know, before you got into this role? What did that path look like? A little bit.
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:Yeah, so four years of residency training in pathology, which is kind of a job, which is kind of school, you're not paying to be there, they're paying you somewhat, but they work you really hard, as you're sort of, you know, boots on the ground learning how to be a doctor without killing people, because there's always someone overseeing your work. And then after that, I did my one year of forensic pathology fellowship training in New Mexico, which is doing forensic autopsies pretty much all day, every day. So really intense training. And then after that, I did two years of neuropathology fellowship training, which was focusing just on diseases and disorders of the brain and diagnosing those. And then my first big girl job, as I say, once I completed all my additional training, was working in far northern, very rural California forest Sheriff's Office, which was a very interesting experience, especially coming from such a heavily academic prior life.
Julie Berman - Host:Wow, yeah, I could imagine that was a probably large cultural shift as well.
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:Yeah, I'm very grateful for the experience, because I did. I learned a lot. I mean, you can learn a lot wherever you go, as long as you're open to it. Yes. But then, after working about five years and very rural, completely away from anything academic, I was like, Oh, maybe I miss academia. So then I switched to a job in Missouri where I was affiliated with the university and had the opportunity to teach again, which I really enjoy, and then came to Utah. Wow,
Julie Berman - Host:that's amazing. And I want to talk about, like, your roles that you do now, and the details, the kind of nuances about that. So can you explain, like we talked about just overall, like your role is chief medical examiner, and you you actually do multiple things within your role. So can you kind of explain a little bit about your responsibilities in in this particular job?
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:Sure. Let's see. So in my role as chief medical examiner here in Utah, my time is supposedly split about half between doing hands on forensic pathology stuff, meaning slicing and dicing, doing autopsies and post mortem examinations and writing those reports. Then half the time is supposed to be administrative duties where there's paperwork and meetings and putting out fires and doing my best to help everyone in the office succeed and and the really, the cool thing that gets me really excited is I'm given the opportunity to basically brag about how awesome this off office is and try to help raise awareness again about How the work we do is impacting the living
Julie Berman - Host:I love that. And can you describe, like, kind of when you went, or, you know, when you and your team go to figure out the cause of death, like, can you describe, what is that look or sound like, or what actions are you taking and kind of just go through maybe the process and some of the details of what that involves, and then, particularly, like your role within the scope of that,
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:yes, so let me try to give a bigger overall picture. If you've watched the CSI TV shows, which I do enjoy, even though they're totally ridiculous, if there's a forensic pathologist, is usually one forensic pathologist and maybe one investigator, and you can see the forensic pathologist maybe slice open the head and say, Oh, they had a stroke at 12pm on June 7. And that's ridiculous, completely unrealistic. But the point I really want to make is it takes an entire team for this, for this to happen. And so in our office, we have our front office staff, we have our Deaf investigators, we have our assistance back in autopsy, because doing an autopsy is a very physically demanding job. We have our epidemiologists, which I hope we can get to later. And then we have our forensic pathologist and then some administrative physical people to keep us crossing all our T's and dotting all our i's and making sure we can function. So our death investigators are the ones who actually go out to the scene of a death, and they're sort of our initial eyes and ears. So often how someone lives is related to how someone dies, so having that scene investigation is critical to helping us come up with the best determination of cause and manner of death. So they will, they're the ones who will respond to the scene, take photographs, photo document everything surrounding the scene where the person is, and then the body itself. And they will talk to next of kin and friends who and whoever is on scene, to try to get as much information about the person as possible. Then, if this is a death that falls under our jurisdiction, the body will be brought to our office, where is received by some of our morgue staff to make sure chain of custody is maintained, to make sure that personal property that arrived with the decedent is preserved and then, usually the next day, sometimes even the same day, we will start our post mortem examination. And the extent of a post mortem examination depends on multiple factors, and it could just be looking at someone like a physical exam at the doctors, where. Look at them, completely unclothed, documenting any injuries, trauma or natural disease processes, and then collecting samples for toxicology, and then that's it, they're released. Or the post mortem examination, is the full autopsy, where we open them up and look at every single organ very carefully to try to come up with the best cause and manner of death, but each time we're collecting specimens for toxicology and maybe other testing. So those are the people involved at kind of a broader level, and then my role. So once I have my patients for the day, if I'm on service, we say on service for when we're in the more to you know when we're assigned to be doing autopsies and post form examinations. I will get the information from the investigator ahead of time, because that's really important. Like I said, that's going to help me figure out the extent of examination I need to do. That's going to help me figure out what kind of additional testing I need to do. But the whole exam is usually, well, we will do up to eight in a day. Wow. So we don't need to hold on to the body as soon as we are done, which is, like I said, same day or next day. Usually, we can release the body to the funeral home so that part of the grieving process can be taken care of. But most of the time, I won't have a cause or manner of death yet, because I still need to gather more information. I may need to look at pieces of organs under a microscope. Almost everyone gets toxicology testing, and that takes weeks to return. Okay? So I have to compile all that information and and turn it into a Word document report, in addition to filling out a death certificate. Wow. And that might have been a kind of convoluted answer, but I trust you will. You'll ask me clarifying
Julie Berman - Host:that was great. Yeah, is it clarify? Really quick. I have a few follow up questions like, so what is toxicology like? Can you define that?
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:Yes, so toxicology is looking at the drugs in someone's system. Okay, it's not the same. So I mean, toxicology is toxicology. We also do toxicology on living patients, but interpretation of results is different after death, okay, partly, in large part, because nobody really cares about death until it happens to them, well, happens to a loved one or makes national news. So we don't have a lot of really good studies on levels, toxicology levels and a decedent. Wow, so I will get a toxicology report back. And it's not just, hey, this person overdosed on this. It's, this is a number, and then I have to interpret it within the context of everything else. Wow. Okay,
Julie Berman - Host:thank you for explaining that. And then so in regards to the autopsy, because I think this is interesting, and we were talking before, when I was gathering more information. And can you kind of explain? Because you you do those parts and like you know, you're hands on. And I know you mentioned you have a team who also works with you, because it is so physically demanding, so without going into too much graphic detail, because otherwise we might have to pause the interview. Um, but for the purposes of, like, actually sharing about that, because I think it is really interesting, how do you go about doing doing that, and what is it that, because I'm imagining, because you do this, like you said, you do up to eight in a day, and then I know it's not your full time. You know you don't do every single day because you're also doing the administrative and other responsibilities for your team and department. But when you are doing this, like that, does I mean you're like, in it to win it, for lack of better words, like you were just, you know, you're in it in the tragedy. Yeah, exactly. So can you kind of explain, like, what is this like, and what do you actually love so much about this part? Because it's interesting to me even, because it's just like something I never I mean, I don't think I ever do and have never done
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:it even, and that's fine. But for those of us who can handle this thing, I encourage you, please try to get into this field, because it's so important. And like I said, most people can't. Well, if you've ever had a regular physical exam at a doctor, right? You go in for your annual wellness exam, the doctor will look at you take measurements, like blood pressure, temperature. They might check your thyroid by putting their fingers on the front of your neck and asking you to swallow. They might palpate your belly, meaning press on your belly, see if they can feel any masses and things like that. So what we do with an autopsy is that, but I get to actually see it. Okay, right? So I don't just palpate on the belly. I am going to open you up so I can see everything inside. COVID I can I will be able to look directly at your thyroid gland and slice through it and see if there's any masses or nodules. I don't have to press to feel how far, how enlarged your liver might be. I can weigh it and look at it and slice through it, wow. So I get to do that for every major organ in the body,
Julie Berman - Host:okay, and so is there like a process that you follow, is like, almost like a checklist or something, I'm imagining that you that you have as part of the autopsy,
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:sort of, yeah. So, I mean, so part of an autopsies, we routinely try to collect certain specimens for toxicology. Okay? So we routinely try to collect blood, usually from the femoral region. We routinely try to collect urine from the urinary bladder. We routinely try to collect vitreous fluid, which is eyeball juice. Oh, wow, yes. So we do those we collect those specimens. Every autopsy starts with the external examination, which is again, just looking at the patient, okay, first clothed, then unclothed, carefully detailing any injuries, trauma, scars, evidence of natural disease. And then we go proceed with the Y incision right, which you may have seen on the TV shows, to try to open up the chest and abdominal cavities and look at the organs in there, one by one. And then we will reflect the scalp. Saw open the top of the skull and look at the brain. But everything we do, every incision, every examination we do. We do keeping the family in mind and their need to potentially have a viewing so all of the incisions we make can be covered up and sort of made pretty by the funeral home. Yeah, right. So the y incision is done so that it's covered by clothing. And the when we need to look in this the head, the incisions we make along the scalp, it can be covered by the pillow line, basically. So we're always trying to keep that in mind with the work we do as well.
Julie Berman - Host:Yeah, I love that. I think that's, I mean, yeah, it's something I would never think about but, but obviously, so important to the people who are still around, yes. And part of that, yeah, the loved ones. So that's super interesting. And then you said, like, in regards to kind of like you've done, you've done the, sort of, the hands on portion of looking at the patient, and then, or the do you call them a patient, the individual. And then after, right, you're, you're done with that active part. Then you're waiting for the the test results of everything it. How does that work? Like, once you start getting the test results in what, I guess, like, what is that like? What What things are you thinking or what factors are you talking about in order to sort of figure out those key things, like the cause of death, in the manner of death, like, what is that part of the process like?
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:So, in a perfect world which doesn't exist, of course, I would be able to do my cases, and, you know, do the physical exam of my decedents, my patients, and then spend the next, however many days I need to just thinking about that, transcribing my autopsy notes into a Word document, getting the toxicology results back, reviewing the medical records and building being able to finish it within a day or so that doesn't happen because lots of other things happen, and people are dying every single day. So this is a continuing process of taking care of more decedents each time. But let's see. So this usually happens in my office, which where I have a microscope, or I have reference books to help me interpret toxicology results. I might have to look at representations of different organs under the microscope in my office and make a diagnostic, make a pathologic diagnosis. Based on those I will review the scene information, review the patient's history, social history, usually, and come up to my best ability with the best explanation for why they died. And sometimes we have to ask for additional testing. Maybe toxicology is surprising, either we expected something to be there based on the scene investigation, and it wasn't there. So then I have to dig deeper, or something pops up on toxicology that we didn't expect at all, and I have to make sure that it's, it's a true result, and try to figure out if there's another explanation for it being there.
Julie Berman - Host:Okay, and then how do you, like, usually, is there? Because you, as you mentioned, you have, like, so many other things happening in the midst of before. Or, you know, when you just started with this one decedent, and then you've, like, moved on to all these other people. Is there a certain time frame, and also, usually, like, is there an average number of people who are helping in this process that you when you do come to a conclusion after a certain, I don't know, like, a month or in like 15 people have helped? Are there are Is there information like that that exists, or is there like is that hard to say?
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:I don't know how to answer. How many people have helped, because, you know, the investigative information that helps immensely. Working in an office with multiple other forensic pathologists is very helpful, because, not uncommonly, we have complicated cases and it's and so it's helpful to rely on colleagues to try to brainstorm a way through Well, what does this mean? What does this mean? What is the most likely explanation here? Okay, and to your point, I I'm
Julie Berman - Host:sorry, I was gonna say so it sounds like you're working often in in a team, like, on a lot of the cases, to, like, think through things or compare like maybe with their experiences, or if they've seen something like this, or, I don't know, like work through things together, about how you could further investigate, if needed?
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:Yes. So I would say that all medical diagnoses, including a cause, including a cause of death determination, the best outcomes come from when you can consult your colleagues, from when more healthcare providers are involved. So we also consult toxicologists a lot of times to help us interpret those post mortem toxicology levels. So that's another member of the team who it doesn't reside in our office necessarily.
Julie Berman - Host:Okay, yeah, that's so interesting. And is there like a certain time frame that usually like, is it like a month later that, or does it does not exist?
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:Yes. So one of the most impossible things to explain to anyone, not in our office or not in the business period, no matter what office you're at, is how long it takes, right? It makes no sense. You did the autopsy, it's completed. Why does it take so long to get the results? Well, because there's all these additional steps, and it's not just your loved one who died, right? It's so many people's loved ones who died, and we're prioritizing all of them to the best of our ability. But to answer your question, there are certain national standards that we try to adhere to, and that includes getting most of our cases done within 90 days. Okay, so most of our cases hovering around 90% I think the report is completed within 90 days. Okay,
Julie Berman - Host:yeah. And there are, it's so interesting. There's so many components, because it's like, the, yeah, the physical, like, hands on, looking at everything, and then the testing. And then you're actually, like, writing things, and you're talking to your colleagues, like, thinking and analyzing. And then, as you said, you're not just doing that for like, one, one decedent. It's many, many, many at a time. Do you have numbers or statistics? And if you, if you don't have it now, it's fine, or if you have it later, like you can send it to me. But just as far as, like, how many cases you you do in like a year or certain time frame. So
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:again, this refers to national standards, where we recognize that if pathologists are asked to do too many, the quality of our work decreases. Right? We can't maintain a certain quality if there are too many, too many. So 250 to 325 is the number we strive for,
Julie Berman - Host:okay, wow, which is like one a day. I mean, sort of, or ish, yeah, yes, wow. Okay, um, and
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:then, and then the other point I'd like to make, if I may, quickly, about this, it's so hard to explain to people not in this business, how long it takes the the extra frustrating thing is, the more complicated the case is, the more difficult it is to come up with a reasonable cause of death, the longer it takes. Yeah, and I can, I can see the family's perspective of, you know, it's been months. Why is there no answer? What are you doing? We're trying to find the answer. It's just not as straightforward. Yeah.
Julie Berman - Host:And I think on that note, like, I kind of love to shift the conversation a little bit about just, like, Why? Why do you love doing this job like you have, you have very clear affinity for doing what you do, knowing that it does affect the public's health for the living in a really beautiful way. So I love to hear like, what are your, you know, favorite parts of this job? Or like, why do you feel so passionately about wanting more women in particular to know about this in this career option? I
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:think if I had to do any other specialty within med. Medicine, I wouldn't be a doctor. I really enjoy forensic pathology for many reasons. So one category of reasons is so much of western medicine in particular, I would say, has become super sub specialized, right? You have a heart problem, you go to a cardiologist. You have a lung problem, you go to pulmonologist. You have a kidney problem, you go to the nephrologist, and that's great, but all those systems are connected. I feel like there's a lot of unfortunate barriers in live patient medicine, because there's not that great communication. And I'm not trying to knock any of these specialists. They're very important, and they do good work, and they're able to know a lot of details about complicated things, but with autopsy, I get to see the heart connected to the lungs connected to everything. I see how it's still all connected together, and I love that. Now there's no heartbeat, so there's no electrical activity, and I can't do certain other measurements, but I can see how everything is connected together. And I get to pull in the patient's social history, their medical history, toxicology, histology, try to pull together all these different pieces to capture the best story of why this person died. And I find that very satisfying. I also very much enjoy so yes, there's a criminal justice aspect to the work we do. People do horrible things to each other, and sometimes the legal system gets involved and we have to testify in court. That's not my favorite part, but my favorite part is that much more of this is a public health thing. So I have this very fanciful, naive vision that I know will never happen, but the vision is, if I do my job well enough, I won't have any more patience, right? If I if we can, collectively as medical, legal death investigators, as forensic pathologists, figure out why people are dying and provide the right information and the why, the why, the why, then we can ideally, which will never happen, prevent those deaths. Yeah, and then just going back to the actual physicality of it. So doing autopsies, like I said, there's this very physical part of it, which I very much enjoy, but then there's also this very cerebral part. So it's this great blend of manual labor and cerebral labor that I find very satisfying. Yeah,
Julie Berman - Host:that's so interesting. And and then also, like, I do want to touch on, because, you know, you do also manage, like the people and who do the work. And so that I thought was, you know, so interesting. So I wanted to just read a little bit before I ask you some questions, just to give people, like, an overview of your responsibility, so you oversee all the department staff and teams, including work operations, medical examiner investigations, forensic pathologists, epidemiology and support staff. Your job includes recruiting, hiring, training and managing day to day operations, in addition to your job duties that you've kind of, you know, already talked about with, like, the hands on and analysis parts. So in regards to, kind of, because you are wearing multiple hats in this way, how do you, I guess, like, how do you go about that part? You know, when it because that's like, they're very different skill sets, you know, just to be, like, very, you know, very, just sort of blunt. It's like you're doing all this work that that you have all these incredible years of experience, and you've gone to school and so, like, that's a whole entity in and of itself. But then, you know, you talk about sort of being the head of this department, and then managing the people and overseeing all these different nuances and what it takes to run that. How do you go about like that part and combine like those skill sets? This is a huge question, so feel free to answer however you wish. But I just, I wanted to also, I asked this question because it's in recognition that of these skill sets that you have, which is truly incredible because you're doing like, I mean, really, so many pieces in in one role. Like, do you feel like you you know to step into this role, and I'm not sure. And you can feel free to say, like, how long you've been doing it, but like to step into this role. Like, are there certain things that you feel like you had to develop or like, step into as you took on this other component that is, you know, running this office and, like, managing the team that is maybe separate from your your work in that role of, like, investigating, like, cause of death, things like that, if that makes it easier to answer, okay,
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:let Me, I think I have the glimmers of a two part answer. So one, the switching between different roles, most of the time feels good, okay, sort of a okay. This has gotten really stressful. I'm going to break into this other, other mode of operation, and then it's kind of relaxing. But I wouldn't want to. Do that the entire time, because that also drains me in certain ways. So they're, they're sort of complimentary, or in other words, they drain different parts of me. Yeah, fair enough. So yeah, I applied for this job, not thinking I would get it. I'm kind of a youngish woman, and I thought they'd pick someone a lot more seasoned than me, but here I am. I think a skill that is that is very important in any sort of leadership role is emotional intelligence, and that's, I don't know if that can be taught. I'm sure it can be taught. I don't know how I would teach that, but I should figure that out, though, because I have a child, that's a great note for myself. I need to figure that out.
Julie Berman - Host:It's a note for me too, right? As a mom, yeah,
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:but I the way I see my leadership roles, my job is to set everyone else up for success. And I feel very fortunate here in this office, and that the office is already populated by so many amazing people. It's really easy. Yeah, it's really easy. That's
Julie Berman - Host:why they hired you, right? Because you add to the add to the awesomeness of the team. I also, I'm sure it's what, yeah, I love that. And can you talk to us, like, also, and kind of share, are there a lot of women who are doing this role, whether it's as, like, not even as the chief medical examiner, but even the role of an office but like, just even, sort of like some, you know, some of the sub subsections maybe, like, Are there a lot of women doing what you're doing? So
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:I don't know the national statistics, there is a nationwide shortage of forensic pathologists. FY, so if anyone is considering this at all, please do it. We need you. But I'm fairly confident that there is a majority of women doing forensic pathology at this point, which is a shift from prior years. Women are also taking over the medical schools. Last time I checked too in our office, most of our investigators, our death investigators, are women, and I think that is also not uncommon as well. Okay, I don't know why, necessarily, it's an interesting phenomenon, but I it's not. There are many areas of medicine that are male predominated, but I don't think forensic pathology is one of them anymore. Okay, as for chiefs, again, I don't know what the national what the actual numbers are, I think there might still be a majority of males in those roles, but we're taking over. I
Julie Berman - Host:like it. Woo hoo. Um, so Okay, well, thank you for answering that. I know it was like a very big question that I asked, and I wanted to ask, kind of like as we head towards the the end of the interview, for for people who are thinking like, oh, wow, this is a career path that I really never considered, what would be the characteristics, or, like, the qualities or passions, maybe, of someone who might really love doing this job.
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:So many things. I think what enjoying puzzles and solving puzzles is a big part of this. Having mental flexibility and be able to work within chaos is a big part of this, because there's we don't, we can't schedule death, and people do the weirdest things for themselves and to others. So if you can't plan for every single situation that you're going to encounter, a characteristic that I've noticed seems to be a trend, which is probably pretty surprising to most people on the outside, is that everyone I've met in this business, with rare exceptions, really cares about live people like we do this because, because we want to make a difference for live people. It's not just the sort of stereotype of, oh, we're anti social weirdos who can't talk to anyone, so we just deal with the dead. We are actually interfacing with live people, often in their worst mental emotional states, because we're dealing with someone who just lost a loved one. And that takes a lot of a lot of strength and a lot of love, really, to be able to do that in a professional caring manner. And then probably the biggest thing, if you were trying to figure out if this was something for you, you have to know if you can handle being around the dead body. Yeah, for some people, is a hard No, and that's okay. That's okay. Yeah. Not for everyone,
Julie Berman - Host:yeah, okay. Well, I appreciate that, and I wanted to also say like on the note of. Of kind of a lot of people you know, maybe not thinking about the fact that that like for you and your colleagues you know, like the the depths of love that you have for the living is so great, and also that you are working with, with the families and other people, it's interesting, because that's something that I wouldn't have thought about. You know, you think about it when you hear about perhaps people who work with with hospice patients, right? And they're part of those systems, it's sort of like a given, but it's really interesting to sort of think about that in the work that your team does, and that you are still providing some support and guidance. And so I'd love to just touch a little bit on that when, when I know it's not you in your role, but like when you're when your team is helping people who have lost a loved one. What kind of support or resources or things are they usually receiving from your team?
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:Well, this is an area that has a lot of room for improvement across the globe. Probably, I think our office does a good job of doing our best, but we can do better, but some of the things we do just being a person who is asking questions about your loved one who just died, and listening like, actually just listening and hearing you like, there's a lot of healing that can come from that. Not uncommonly, we'll get really upset families who are upset with us, and they stay upset with us for a long time, and we're we're able to recognize that, you know what? Maybe, maybe it's not really just us they're upset with, but this is part of the grieving process, and so we do work with some specific grief support organizations in the state, and try to refer people to those places where they can get more intensive, dedicated support. The Utah office of the medical examiner is incredibly unique and wonderful in so many ways. And my perhaps slightly biased opinion, but not completely biased, one of the ways is that we have a team of epidemiologists. Most offices don't have that, and our epidemiologists are looking specifically at deaths by suicide and drug overdose deaths, and part of what they do is months after the death occurred, usually about eight months, so when the person is no longer maybe in that active grieving phase. I'm not sure why they picked eight months, but there's a good reason. They will do a next of kin interview, where they'll call up the next of kin, the survivor from the person who died check in on them? How are you doing? They'll try to get additional information to provide more context to that person's death. So what were some of the other stressors that were going on around the time that your person died by suicide? What were some of the stressors that were going on when your person overdosed by drugs. And that additional information is so critical, because, again, that gets us closer to the why. Why did this person die by suicide? Why did this person overdose on drugs? And if we can get to the why, we can we have a better chance of preventing it. But those interviews also provide that active, caring ear for that person who's still suffering, who's still grieving, to be able to talk about their loved one and not hopefully feel shame about it or anything like that. And I wish we could do more of that. I wish we could do that for everyone. Because, again, I know we talked about this before, but you know, everyone dies like that is a universal constant, and yet we as a generally speaking, as a nation, as a society, we're so afraid of it, we don't talk about it. And so if you lose a loved one, there's that trauma of my loved one is gone, but then there's that additional trauma of, Oh, crap, now I have to get a death certificate, what is that and all these other hurdles that you have to jump through. And our goal is to try to do what we can to minimize that additional trauma. You know, if we could and nationally, you're getting me on my soapbox here, we could change our mentality so that we recognize that death is universal. Death happens to everyone. Yes, it's scary, but it doesn't have to be so scary. And we could teach people about this is, this is kind of normal. Your grief is normal. Let us help you. This is the process. Let us help you. I think that would, I think the world would be a better place.
Julie Berman - Host:Yeah, on that note, like, how do you think about dying and death. Like, do you have? I feel like you're in such a unique position and and probably have some thoughts that many of us have not even thought to think of. So I'd love to kind of hear what you've come to. I don't quite know how to, like, I wrote down some more probably brilliantly worded questions. Like, you know, how do you think? Of death, or how do you approach it? Or how do you come to terms with your own death if you want to answer any of the any of the above questions, but how? How do you like, if you could use all of your wisdom to kind of like, share something that you think might be a good way for the rest of us who aren't in your field to like approach death. Would you have anything to share about that we would love to
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:I think about death and my death constantly. You know, I wonder. My personal goal is that I just wake up dead, I die in my sleep sometime, and I'm found and that's how it goes. I don't know if it's wisdom, but just to reassure everyone out there that death is normal, and when your loved one dies, it hurts, but you are not alone. Like people are dying every single day, not from a like, a scary everyone's dying point of view, but like, that's just, that's just the part of the cycle of life, and there's support for you, and you're not alone, right? You don't have to navigate this sudden change in existence of your loved one alone. That's what I would say.
Julie Berman - Host:I love that. Yeah, I think that's beautiful. And I I had my grandmother who's super close to she died over a decade ago now, but it's, and I actually just had a friend who's, who's, um, loved one died. And so it's, it's interesting, because I was dealing with, like, this very huge, you know, like grief and and death in my family, but it's been a while, and then I had kids, so it's like, now I've been doing the other part, the other part of like, and then having this reminder not too long ago, you know, before we're doing this interview, like, it's just, you know, it's interesting to see the the cycle. But also, I have to say that I was grateful because I had support, because my grandma was in hospice program, and it was like, one of the most beautiful blessings that it I didn't know that I needed or that existed until I needed it. And so I love that you share this part too, because it is, I think sometimes, especially like me, because I was, I was in my 20s, it wasn't a part of what I knew yet, but I was so grateful that there was, you know, some support and people who knew more than I did in that area. And so I love that you're sharing this, this part of it too, because it probably is something, I mean, in our culture, we definitely don't think about it that much. So it is, it is important to probably be thinking about it. So if you have resources, I can put them in the show notes. If you have, like, book recommendations or podcasts, yeah, you listen to so you can, you can send them to me after the fact, and we'll put them in the show notes. Because, yeah, because that might be interesting for people listening as we as we kind of wrap up today for people who are interested in doing your job. Do you have any, like, specific resources, associations, or other places that people can go to. I know you have to, obviously go to med school. I mean, there's a lot of things that you must do before. But for people who are like, Oh, wow, I never thought about this where, where can they kind of go, or who can they talk to? Do you think to get a better understanding of what it might entail and how they could get into the field.
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:So one thing, you don't just have to be a forensic pathologist and go to medical school to get in this field. There's so many different team members that are in this field, and most of them don't require that, that commitment to education, other commitments, yes, but not not medical school, there are sort of two major, three major national organizations. There's the National Association of Medical Examiners. I think their website is the name.org is more geared towards forensic pathology, but they have resources. And I think they're offering free webinars on topics related to this. A second national organization is the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, A, A, F, s.org, maybe they are geared towards more, not just forensic pathologists, but all of the different forensic specialties, you know, like crime scene investigator, DNA, forensic DNA person, forensic toxicology, all of them, and they have a lot of good resources on their website too. And then there's also the International Association of coroners and medical examiners, the iacme, and they have resources on their website as well. We didn't have talk about medical, legal, death investigation landscape, and how every jurisdiction does it differently. So you might your listeners might not all be in a jurisdiction that has a medical examiner's office, okay, but if they are, you could also. To just reach out and say, hey, could I shadow? Could I talk to someone there? Could I get more exposure to this field? And most of the time, we tend to be really eager to share what we do. We're just also, unfortunately, very busy, usually as well.
Julie Berman - Host:Yeah, okay, well, thank you, and I'm glad that you pointed out that there are a lot of roles that you can actually do without necessarily going to med school. So I think that's that's awesome. And thank you for those resources, the associations that you mentioned. Is there anything else that you feel like you didn't get to mention that you'd really want to chat about before we before we start wrapping like just it's really important that you didn't share that I might not know to ask yes.
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:So, I mean, I There are many wonderful things about my job in this field. I will caution though, also that this job has changed me as a person. You know, it has changed my outlook. I see horrible things on a daily basis that does affect me. So that is a reality.
Julie Berman - Host:Yeah, can I ask, like, how do you balance that? I think that's a really good point. Like, how do you balance kind of what you see with trying to, yeah, like, have a healthy mindset, and like, also living life, like living your own life, and you have, you said you have a child. So like, how, how did those two things come together? If you could speak to that?
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:Yes, so that is a work in progress,
Julie Berman - Host:as is everything, right? Everything
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:this is, this is the topic we're starting to talk about a lot more. We refer to it as a vicarious trauma, right? So that we go, there's a horrible car accident, and the first responders who get there, they're not mangled, but they're dealing with seeing that. And so they get the vicarious trauma. So we get that too in our field. And how do we combat vicarious trauma? How do we manage it so that it doesn't destroy us, right, and doesn't obliterate our love for humanity? Yeah, my working hypothesis is that creative productions might be a good antidote. So painting, writing, doing something to create and produce is my my hypothesis that that is arguably one of the best antidotes for the vicarious trauma. Okay, when so many of the people in my office are artists, wow, like one of my morgue assistants for Halloween, she crocheted like 60 skulls, colorful rainbow skulls. She crocheted them. They looked they were like they were store, brought, bought. They were beautiful. Another one of my or more people is an amazing pianist and does crochet and knitting, I think, wow. And another one of our investigators does pottery and stained glass, I think, like, there's so many artistic endeavors that are that go hand in hand with with the work that we do.
Julie Berman - Host:Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that. I think that's I mean, and that is an important part of you know, your job. And also, I think, acknowledging that. But also I love, I personally love hearing about when people have so many different talents. You know, it's like, we're not just in one lane, we're made up of so many parts, like we're, we're capable of so many things. So I love hearing that. That's such a beautiful thing. So on that note, I want to end, I'm going to ask you my last question of the interview, and this is what I ask to every every guest, because I just love hearing about like, different verbiage and jargon and things in each field. It's also different. So to end our conversation, will you please share a sentence that uses verbiage or jargon from your field and then translate it so it's understandable to us?
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:Okay? So you touched on this at the beginning, talking about cause of death versus manner of death, but I think it warrants answering also in this, in this part, so I might say on the stand or wherever, or tell you, if you're the next of Canada, your loved one's cause of death is gunshot wound of head in the manner of death is suicide. So what that means? So cause of death is the injury or disease process that made someone dead thin. There are a bazillion different ways to phrase it. It could be leoblastoma, like a really bad brain tumor. It could be metastatic carcinoma. It could be exsanguination due to stab wounds of abdomen. Could be gunshot wound of head. So many different ways of describing a cause of death, which is the medical diagnosis of one what made that person dead. Then the manner of death portion is multiple choice. So manner of death refers to manner of death natural. Normal. So someone dies of heart disease or cancer, some natural disease process, manner of death, accident. This encompasses most of our traffic accidents, drug overdoses, and what I refer to as the hold my beer. Watch this ways that people die, manner of death, suicide, manner death, homicide, and then manner of death, undetermined, when we really can't tell,
Julie Berman - Host:wow. Okay, well, thank you for explaining that. Yeah, so many things I didn't know. And then lastly, you know, if people do, if they hear this and they're like, Wow, I would love to reach out. Is there some way like that people can reach out, I know, maybe not to you directly, but is there like, a way that, you know, if people are like, Oh my gosh, I would love to shadow, I would love to ask more questions about being in this field. What is the best way for people to do that, particularly if they happen to be in Utah? Ah,
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:yes, much easier in Utah, website that you can go to and leave comments and every I don't know how it works, but there's a common thing and it goes to an email, and then we see it. We work with various programs across Utah to provide shadowing opportunities. We have an internal internship opportunity for both of our investigators and our autopsy assistance, so I think that's on our website, but I don't actually know, okay, but you could go to our website, okay, fill out a query, and that can be a good way. Yeah,
Julie Berman - Host:okay, awesome. Well, that's wonderful. Thank you so much for being here. Dr Dietrich, it was just like so interesting to learn about you and your job and and all the things that you and your whole team do for your state, but also for for the betterment, right of those of us who are living like across the country, because it affects us all, so
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:that's what we try for. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about this. I mean, like you said, most people don't. They think we're just sort of people hating Gremlins under a bridge or something. But, yeah,
Julie Berman - Host:yeah. Well, a fun group. It's, I mean, just talking to you and hearing your passion for what you do, but also why you do. That's clearly not true. So it was such an honor to talk to you and to learn about your very cool job.
Dr. Deirdre Amaro:Thank you. My pleasure.
Julie Berman - Host:Hey everybody, thank you so much for listening to women with cool jobs. I'll be releasing a new episode every two weeks, so make sure you hit that subscribe button, and if you loved the show, please give me a five star rating. Also, it would mean so much if you share this episode with someone. You think you would love it or would find it inspirational. And lastly, do you have ideas for future shows? Or do you know any rock star women with cool jobs? I would love to hear from you. You can email me at julie@womenwithcooljobs.com, or you can find me on Instagram, at women cool jobs. Again, that's women cool jobs. Thank you so much for listening, and have an incredible day. You.