Talent + Talks Podcast

Stop Leading with Your Pitch! - Talent + Talks Ep. 12 with James Carbary

December 16, 2020 Scott Rivers Season 1 Episode 12
Talent + Talks Podcast
Stop Leading with Your Pitch! - Talent + Talks Ep. 12 with James Carbary
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Talent + Talks Podcast
Stop Leading with Your Pitch! - Talent + Talks Ep. 12 with James Carbary
Dec 16, 2020 Season 1 Episode 12
Scott Rivers

If you are still cold calling your prospects during COVID-19 and leading the call by pitching your services or products, this podcast is for you!

James Carbary is the founder of Sweet Fish Media and the author of Content-Based Networking. Today, he joins us on the Talent + Talks Podcast to teach you, and me, how to get access to your ideal clients in a way that allows you to develop rapport very quickly.  Ultimately we want our clients to know, like, and trust us because THAT is what we define as marketing. 

For James, all of this started on a chance of a lifetime trip to New York to watch a football game.  By meeting Jeff on this trip, James' life was changed forever.  For three years, James learned entrepreneurship from Jeff, and he met his wife because of a move that Jeff allowed him to do.  All of this came from one single relationship, and Jame has now found a way to increase your opportunities for serendipity by creating strategic relationships for your business.

Hope is NOT a plan!  James doesn't HOPE that he meets people that will lead to business opportunities anymore.  Today, he builds relationships with guests on his multiple podcasting shows, leading to a wonderful business doing 7 figures every year.  Today, you will learn exactly how James did it.

As an aside, Jame's book gave me the playbook that I used to create the Talent + Talks Podcast.  While I have not used it to talk to my ideal clients... YET... I have used it to engage with thought leaders in sales, Marketing, and Leadership that have helped my clients during this pandemic. 

To find James on LinkedIn, you can visit his page here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamescarbary/

It would mean a lot to me if you would reach out to James on LinkedIn and let him know you heard him on our podcast. 

Also, you can learn more about James on his website: 
https://sweetfishmedia.com/

Mentioned in Video:
Craig Rochelle leadership podcast: https://www.life.church/leadershippodcast/

At The Table with Patrick Lencioni
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-the-table-with-patrick-lencioni/id1474171732

If you haven't connected with Scott, please connect with him on LinkedIn.  You can find him here:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottrivers/

Lastly, please check out our latest book on The Art of Hiring A Players.  You can get this awesome resource for free by going to this link:  https://cercatalent.com/hiring-a-players-ebook/

Cerca Talent:  https://www.cercatalent.com/

Show Notes Transcript

If you are still cold calling your prospects during COVID-19 and leading the call by pitching your services or products, this podcast is for you!

James Carbary is the founder of Sweet Fish Media and the author of Content-Based Networking. Today, he joins us on the Talent + Talks Podcast to teach you, and me, how to get access to your ideal clients in a way that allows you to develop rapport very quickly.  Ultimately we want our clients to know, like, and trust us because THAT is what we define as marketing. 

For James, all of this started on a chance of a lifetime trip to New York to watch a football game.  By meeting Jeff on this trip, James' life was changed forever.  For three years, James learned entrepreneurship from Jeff, and he met his wife because of a move that Jeff allowed him to do.  All of this came from one single relationship, and Jame has now found a way to increase your opportunities for serendipity by creating strategic relationships for your business.

Hope is NOT a plan!  James doesn't HOPE that he meets people that will lead to business opportunities anymore.  Today, he builds relationships with guests on his multiple podcasting shows, leading to a wonderful business doing 7 figures every year.  Today, you will learn exactly how James did it.

As an aside, Jame's book gave me the playbook that I used to create the Talent + Talks Podcast.  While I have not used it to talk to my ideal clients... YET... I have used it to engage with thought leaders in sales, Marketing, and Leadership that have helped my clients during this pandemic. 

To find James on LinkedIn, you can visit his page here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamescarbary/

It would mean a lot to me if you would reach out to James on LinkedIn and let him know you heard him on our podcast. 

Also, you can learn more about James on his website: 
https://sweetfishmedia.com/

Mentioned in Video:
Craig Rochelle leadership podcast: https://www.life.church/leadershippodcast/

At The Table with Patrick Lencioni
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-the-table-with-patrick-lencioni/id1474171732

If you haven't connected with Scott, please connect with him on LinkedIn.  You can find him here:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottrivers/

Lastly, please check out our latest book on The Art of Hiring A Players.  You can get this awesome resource for free by going to this link:  https://cercatalent.com/hiring-a-players-ebook/

Cerca Talent:  https://www.cercatalent.com/

Scott Rivers:

Hello, my friends and welcome back to a another talent talks Podcast. I am excited about today's guest. I'm excited about getting into the show. But before we start, I've got two things for you. Number one. If you haven't done so already, go to circa talent.com. Download our latest ebook which I will post here, I will post a link in order to get there just below. Go check out the ebook it is telling you or helping you hire the best players in the market. It gives you a roadmap, if you will, on how to hire a players. I'd love to get your feedback on it, go check it out. Again, it's for free. Click the link in the show notes or feel free to go to our website at circa talent comm to learn more information, in addition to that, if you haven't done so already, please rate us wherever you are listening to or watching this podcast. If you're on YouTube, you can hit like and subscribe. If you're listening to us, whether it be through Apple podcast or anything else. Go through and give us a rating. You don't even have to go through and write the recommendation if you don't want to or don't have the time. The rating in and of itself will help us to broaden our reach and get this out to more people. Let's jump into today's show. Today's show is one that I've been looking forward to for a long time. Today's guest is James Carberry. James is the author of content based networking. He's also the founder at sweet fish media. We're gonna learn more about what that company does and what James does. But James is one of the reasons that I started this podcast after reading his book content based networking, which was recommended to me by a very good friend, I decided to implement what I learned in that book and get started with this podcast. So James really goes into detail today about what it takes to get this started and how to use the podcast to engage your target audience. You can find James at his website, which is sweet fish media, as you can see right here. James's company does a lot of different things. They are certainly a media company, which we'll talk about, but they also can help you produce your podcast if you are a company or individual that is looking to expand your reach into your target audience. You can do that by working with sweet fish media. You can see James also on his podcast, which these are the podcasts that I'm showing you on the screen now for sweet fish media. There's the b2b growth show the manufacturing show the b2b sales show crafting culture and one that's not listed here, the CIO show. Oh, that's a lot guys. Let's jump right into this. James Carberry is someone who you're going to get I think a ton of information from and I think you're going to want to reach out to him on LinkedIn and connect with him. And hopefully you'll see a reason to reach out to him at sweet fish media and maybe even work with him. Without further ado, everyone. Let's get in today's show. This is James Carberry. Everyone this is James Carberry. I know I introduced this up front and I showed you my excitement level. I'm still geeking out here. So as we go through this, just know that I've I've been a student of his since his book came out. It was introduced to me by somebody that's a very good friend of mine, and also a friend of James's. And it's just led me to build out this podcast and continue to try to add value to people with what we're doing. So, James, I can't tell you how excited I am about this and I'm ready to get started. I'm pumped for this. Scott, thank

James Carbary:

you so much for having me. This is gonna be a really fun Convo.

Scott Rivers:

All right, cool. Cool. Well, listen, I'd like to get started with this. And I ask people this all the time. Some people have taken it into this is my morning routine. Some people take it into, you know, this is what I'm listening to. And some people say, I just sit here and listen to questions and it keeps me sharp. But to get started, what is it that you're doing these days to make sure that you're staying sharp? What are you listening to? What are you reading? What are things that our listeners might enjoy as well? To stay sharp and what are you doing?

James Carbary:

is called the Craig Rochelle leadership podcast. And then the other one is called after The table with Patrick Lencioni. So Patrick Lencioni wrote my favorite all time business book, the advantage. He also wrote Five Dysfunctions of a team. And both of those podcasts Apple table and the Craig Groeschel leadership podcast, I just think are incredibly insightful, and and keep me really, really sharp. From a leadership perspective.

Scott Rivers:

That's awesome. You know, I've got books on this side, I'm not going to turn everything around, but that Five Dysfunctions of a team is one of my all time favorites as well. So, so good. Yeah. So I think that people get a lot out of that. And those are two good ones to look at man talk, talking about books. So what prompted me to reach out to you a friend of mine introduced me to this book, and I'm going to show it right now. Hopefully, it'll hide my face and show the book correctly. Yeah, there it goes. It's clear. So James, this is your book that I got to tell you has changed my way of thinking of connecting with your customer. And it's a whole different way of networking and building relationships. I can't thank you enough. But But let's talk about what prompted this book. I mean, how did you how did you figure this out? And then what made you decide to put it in a book?

James Carbary:

Yeah, so so when I first started sweet fish, it was January of 2015. And it was born out of me getting let go from a technology company. And their funding dried up, and, and they couldn't, they couldn't keep me on anymore. And I just gotten engaged, like a month prior to that. And I thought to myself, you know, I had, I'd been dancing around with entrepreneurship. And I was doing some things on the side, I tried to start a technology company myself, and that that crashed and burned. And I thought, you know, what, I just got engaged. I and got laid off a month after I got engaged, I can either try to start my own thing, I know that we've got you know, about a year long engagement ahead of us, I know that I can, I can either start my own thing right now eat dirt, really not like not expect a lot of financial upside over the next few years. And take that risk now before we start having kids and like start building out our family. Or I can go and get try to you know, get another job and and pursue kind of the security of that which nothing, nothing at all wrong with that. But I, I was curious enough about entrepreneurship. And I knew that, you know, my wife is a freaking saint and was would have been super supportive, regardless of what direction I would have gone in. Okay, she wanted me to be happy. And and, and as I started thinking about what really was going to drive joy for me, entrepreneurship was the path. So I'd been doing content marketing at the technology company. And I thought, I'll start an agency, I'll start helping other companies do their content marketing. And that's that will be my, you know, my foray into entrepreneurship and trying to build my own thing. So sweet fish was born. We're a content marketing agency, which really, we were a blog writing shop, okay. And we didn't have a niche. We were serving all kinds of different customers. One of those customers happen to be a small church. They were, they call it a church plant, but it's basically a startup church, okay. And they were just outside of Houston in a town called Rosenberg, Texas. And we were doing a lot of blog posts for them that ended up being like, almost I'm blanking on the blanking on what the what the blog is, but it was very, the headlines were really compelling. It was like seven date night spots. In Rosenberg, eight things to do with your kids on the weekend. And Rosenberg. And so it was a it those blog posts were doing really well for them. They were going viral on Facebook. And because it was hyper local, right? Like it was their community was like, Oh, I want to know what what are the eight things I can do with my spouse on on the weekend in our town, and nobody else was writing that kind of content. So it was driving a lot of traffic to the church. And I thought, okay, we're onto something here. We're getting really good results for a very specific kind of niche type of company, this this startup church. Sure. And so, I was like, how can I reverse engineer more relationships with decision makers at these churches? Because if if we can do this for this church in Rosenberg, Texas, we can do it for churches across the country. And and so I as I was thinking about it, I've been doing a podcast with my friend for the last year or so. And I noticed that anybody that I asked to be a guest on the show said yes, we're, you know, it was pretty much a no brainer, like it's super flattering to be asked to be a guest on a show. And, and so I was like, Okay, I started kind of thinking, Okay, if I want to know church planners, and I know that asking somebody to be a guest on a podcast works, and they always say yes, what if I started a show about church planting, and then asked all these church planters to be a guest on the show and then on the back end, after creating content with them could see if they, you know, had a need or had a desire for our our content marketing service having to have us write blog posts for them like we were writing for this other church,

Scott Rivers:

because you kind of had the formula right before. Yeah. So you had the formula?

James Carbary:

Yeah. So so I can't I never applied it in that way before, like, with with the show that I was doing before is a show called inspiring. Awesome. And, and we there was no real strategic focus. It was just a show that my buddy and I did. We wanted to interview really inspiring people that were doing fun stuff. And, and feature them there was no like, there was no business. It was no, it wasn't tied to a business or anything like that. It was just a fun little side project. Sure. But but so so we started this and the show didn't exist. We we just we had a name for the show. And I reached out to 100 complete strangers, I found them on a list of church plants. And I reached out to 100 total strangers, and 80 of them, Scott replied, and and we're interested in some form or fashion of being on the show. We ended up doing episodes with 45 of those people. And I thought, Oh, my gosh, I don't know of a cold outbound strategy that is more effective than getting an 80% reply rate.

Scott Rivers:

Never heard of anything like that. That's crazy. one cent reply. That's crazy.

James Carbary:

Oh, so it all came down to the just this fundamental difference of our Ask is different. Instead of me if I if I did email, the same hundred people, and just said, Hey, are you interested in content marketing services for your church? I would have probably got less than 1% right reply rate, the normal return and every other cold outbound campaign right? course. So because the Ask was, hey, do you want to be a guest on this podcast that doesn't even frickin exist yet. 80% reply rate. And so that was when it was, that was my big aha. And I was like, Ah, there's like, psychologically, there's just something different about trying to engage with someone, when you make it all about them. So it is inherently valuable to them to say yes to being on the show, because it's going to make them look good, right? They are going to get featured for their expertise on an episode of a show that they can then share on their social channels, they can they can show their spouse, I mean, there's all kinds of benefits, both, you know, just personal benefits, as well as benefits, they can tie back to the success of you know, their, their organization and all kinds of things. So, from there, we have those 45 episodes, I quickly learned that church planters have zero budget for marketing. So in the in the early days of the business, you don't know what you don't know, of course, we we pretty quickly there, then pivoted and said, Hey, instead of trying to sell blog, writing services to churches, we're going to sell this podcasting service used as a bizdev mechanism to b2b companies, and b2b companies that actually know who their buyers are. Because if a deal is worth 25, K or higher, it makes a whole lot of sense for you to have a podcast in your you know, as your business strategy. So we

Scott Rivers:

is that is that the number though, so you throughout the 25 grand is that kind of the number that you've come up with?

James Carbary:

Yeah, so that that's, that's the number that I think it makes a lot of sense. If you're, if you're, if your deal sizes are 25 or higher, then it makes a lot of sense for you to at least have a weekly show, because if you're doing a weekly show, and every episode represents a decision maker at one of your target accounts, then you do 52 episodes over the course of a year. And how many of those reasonably would end up turning into business, I know three or four, maybe over the course of a year, that's $100,000 in revenue, you're paying us, you know, our based on our pricing, it's somewhere between 35 to $50,000 for the year. So there's a very clear return on investment. If If you have you know, if you're selling $25,000 deals, doing a weekly show, makes a lot of sense that, that, that, that you should have some sort of and whether use us or not, it's it's a strategy that works. Sure, because the psychology of actually adding value to someone independent of the thing that you do. And I think that's where so many salespeople get tripped up. And I know we're going to be talking about some of some of the folks that you work a lot with and recruitment space and and I just think this, this getting people to rethink how how can I add value in a way that is different than what my actual service or my product provides? Because to fit you what you know that what you do is valuable, but it's not perceived as value until someone actually knows likes and trust you. And so you have to do something else to establish value independent of the thing that they're actually going to buy from you because it's just perceived as a pitch. If you lead with the thing that you do, and it's not perceived that way when you lead with Hey, I want to feature you on our Are I want to do a blog post with you, or I want to do a video series with you. It doesn't have to be a podcast, it can be any content medium, really. And so yeah, that's that's kind of the that's the backstory of how we how we got to where we are today.

Scott Rivers:

And there's there's so many things that I want to dig into with that I want to talk about sweet fish, I want to talk about kind of the successes that you've seen. Can we take a step back, you talk about the story about how you learned that strategic relationships were so important? Would you be willing to share that with this audience? Because and I'll tell you, I'll tell you why. Because I think a lot of people aren't familiar with you and your work that are listening to this. And I think that we've got, it's funny because as I put this together, it was mainly for the diagnostics, Life Sciences, genetics and oncology clients that we were working with, that were not able to be going in and seeing their clients on a regular basis. And so I wanted to bring in people who could help from a sales, marketing and leadership standpoint, to help them think creatively and outside of the box, during COVID-19. What I'm finding is we're also getting a lot of recruiting companies that are listening to this now. And so I think we've got dual audiences here. And maybe they're not familiar with you. And as they read the book, they'll learn it. But I'd love for you to tell that story about what made you understand how important strategic relationships actually were. And then we'll move forward on to some of the other stuff.

James Carbary:

Yeah, so in in 2008, my roommates brother in law won a sweepstakes through a phone company, alltel so they're not I don't think I think they've merged with with somebody else at this point. But it's what it was one of those sweepstakes, where you see a commercial on TV, and it's like text football, 239112, or whatever. And you could win an all expense trip to a professional football game of your choice with you and nine year friends. And you see that and you go, nobody ever actually wins those courses. But my roommates brother in law actually wanted and he had just moved to Oklahoma, so he didn't have a lot of friends in the area. So we reached out to my roommate, and he said, Hey, do you want to get some of your buddies together? We're going to take a private jet to New York City, and, and hang out with Barry Sanders and watch a giant cowboys game in a in a suite. And my roommate asked, he was like, hey, do you want to take a private jet to New York City?

Scott Rivers:

Yes, I do.

James Carbary:

Oh, yeah. Like so I'm thinking is yanking my chain. And and, you know, kidding. Turns out, it was real. And so we go on this, we get to experience this life shaming, just crazy. Like this can't be real experience. And that we landed in New York City, and there's a guy there waiting on us, to put us in this limo bus at named Jeff and Jeff was there kind of handling all of the logistics. So he made sure that the jet was where it was supposed to be when it was supposed to be there. He had the he had arranged the police escort so that our limo bus got us all over New York City. And I ended up hitting it off with this guy. We just we started talking about faith family business, and just really connected with him didn't really think anything of it. I just thought this guy works for alltel. And over the course of the day, realize that Oh man, this guy, this guy owns his own logistics company. And alltel hired his company to do all these logistics and he just happened still really like New York City. And so he was like, hey, I want to go to New York City are on this trip myself, buddy. Yeah, like I think a 15 or 20 person company at the time. And so we get to the end of the day, and he gives me his business card. I tell him my email address cuz I'm like 22 years old. I know about that

Scott Rivers:

cars gonna ask you how old you were at this. Yeah, so um, you know, I'm

James Carbary:

I'm right out of college. And, and so we swapped contact information, but I really don't think anything of it, like nothing's gonna happen here. But it'd be fun to stay in contact with this guy. Well, year and a half later, we had stayed in contact. And he asked me to move across the country to Orlando where his company is based and help him run the helicopter division of his business. And ended up ended up capitalizing on that prayed about it thought that that was the right move. For me at the time, I was working in the accounting department in oil and gas company really hating my life, not really feeling any sort of fulfillment out of my vocation. And so took him up on that opportunity. And in working for Jeff, for those. For the three years that I worked for him. I ended up really seeing what entrepreneurship looked like. And so, moving to Orlando is where I met my wife. And so my entire life changed because of this single relationship with Jeff. I'm an entrepreneur because of Jeff's influence in my life. I met the woman that I married because of Jeff, because Jeff asked me to move across the country to Orlando. I can't imagine a scenario where I would have met Lisa, outside of living here, right and so. So I think about that and I go, oh my gosh, it all came back to that one single relationship. But that relationship happened because of serendipity. And I think so many of us experience experience life transfer like life transforming relationships, but we depend on serendipity for those relationships to happen. Or we happen to meet this person at a conference, or we happen to run into this person at an airport or, you know, all of these like serendipitous relationships. And I think we can do better than that, I think serendipity is naturally going to happen. Sure, and I love that serendipity happens. But I don't think we have to depend on it, I think we can actually create strategic relationships if there's a path for and a structure for doing that. And that's, that's really what content based networking is, it's, you're taking the serendipity out of it. Now, I know that for my business, we need to know VP of Marketing at b2b SaaS companies with 50 to 250. employees, I don't have to hope that I run into those people. I've created a media property and b2b growth, where I can now proactively go out and reach out to those people and not say, hey, do you want us to produce a podcast for you, we do that we have our own outbound campaigns, like everybody else does. But we don't have that that's not the only way we reach out to people, we reach out to a lot of people asking them to be a guest on b2b growth, build a relationship with them, extract incredible content out of them. And then through that relationship with them over time, they end up becoming a client of sweet fish. And we've built our entire you know, we're we've been around for close to six years. Now. It's a seven figure business. And, and we've built it on the back of content based networking, building relationships with the guests that we feature on our show. But anytime someone thinks about podcasts, they only think about audience, they don't think about the value of the relationship with the guests on your show. And and that's, again, what content based networking is all about.

Scott Rivers:

I absolutely love the fact that one chance encounter, call it fate, call it faith, call it whatever it was, but one chance encounter, completely changed your life. And it gave you the wherewithal to say there's something to this. And then that led to what what was it five, seven years later, you actually starting something that is led to this great, wonderful business that you've created. That's cool. I love that story.

James Carbary:

I really do. It's I hope it helps people think differently. I everyone always says, you know, it's not what you know, it's who you know, and I don't see anybody talking about what, how do I? How do I know? How do I get the right who's like, right, do I do I just stumble into knowing the right people. And and I think that's been the traditional approach. And I just don't think in a day where we can all connect on zoom, you and I didn't didn't know each other at all, before this zoom call. And and now I you know, at on the back end of this, I you know, I'll consider you a friend. And and I think that's there's a lot of bad things that technology, we can harp on all the negative that can come from social and from technology. But I think there's some beautiful things that can come from it. And, and me being able to build genuine friendships with people, some of them turned into business, some of them don't, some of them turn into referral partners for us, some of them don't. And I think you've got to be careful to not be solely focused on that, you know, the the interview, or the content collaboration is just a veiled attempt at a discovery call, I think people rise through that from a mile away. And so you have to genuinely want to create phenomenal content with this person. But if your heart is in the right place, you genuinely want to create good content with them, they're going to see that they're going to want to nurture a relationship with you, because they see you as a person of influence the person that's, that's, that's creating great content and helping the market.

Scott Rivers:

It's got to pass that sniff test, I want to say because people do sniff that out so quickly, you know, you can we're seeing this all the time. I know you see it every day just like I do. And we talk about this on every almost every show how what will happen is I'll get a message on LinkedIn, hey, I want to connect on LinkedIn would like to expand further. The next message sometimes they don't even wait any amount of time. The next message is, here's what I can offer you When can we schedule a time to talk about it? And my immediate responses, this is not good. I'm not moving forward with that. So James, what I really like about what you're doing is and what you've created is you've kind of fixed the the gift ask ratio, right? Yeah, you know, you're actually or to use Gary Vaynerchuk I see in the background, you've got clouds and dirt in the background. So Gary Vaynerchuk fan you know the jab jab hook, that he talks about it, it's you know, you give you give you give before you ever ask. And if you've given enough value, the ask is almost easy. Yeah. And so you know that that's what I got to tell you. And we talked about this earlier, when when I first started trying to put together a podcast, I was trying to reach out to my clients because I thought you know, I'm gonna I'm going to get access to them through this and then I started reaching out to their customers, because I thought that could end around. Give access to my clients. And when COVID hit, what I decided to do was just provide a value. And this value is not, it's not coming back to me, it truly is just a value to the client, which is how do we get our sales people who aren't able to go into their accounts today to be more effective. And so I started reaching out to those sales leaders, those Marketing Leaders, those those leadership trainers, and asking them the same questions. And that's how we put together a podcast for this season. It is to help our clients, eventually, hopefully, we'll we'll move back to that, and I'll be able to start reaching out and talking to our clients. But I think that what it's taught me and timing is everything is 100% taught me that I'm here to create value for them more so than I am to add value to me, right? I'm trying to give much more than I am pulling back. And it's the actual podcast is growing because of it. So it was a good lesson for me to learn at that time.

James Carbary:

Yeah, I wish more. I wish more sales professionals understood that and I so so I've got two wishes. I wish that sales professionals understood how collaborative content creation creates, it creates a halo of relationship and trust, that ends up mapping to the thing that they're compensated on, which is revenue. But they're not patient enough to do that, that front end work, they'd rather just just run and gun and try to try to get into as many sales conversations as quickly as they can, as opposed to doing the air cover work of building a relationship by creating valuable content with somebody, then I would my my secondary wish is that marketers would understand that the thing that they're paying us to do for them is so much more valuable than just the reach that the content gets. So many marketers want the you know, they're How do I grow that audience? How do we grow the audience? How do we grow the audience, the audience will come when the content is good, you're distributing it in the right channels, you're repurposing it on, on social, there's some there's some best practices that you do to make sure that the content gets seen by people. And if the content is good, and it's getting seen by the right people, the audience is inevitably going to grow. But I need marketers to understand that by positioning the show as a tool that can allow you to build a one to one relationships with the exact people that your sales team has been, like dying to get into a conversation with. But they can't because they're just trying to sell their thing. And nobody wants to talk to them. But as soon as marketing comes along and says, Hey, we want to feature you on our show that's spotlighting experts in the industry. Now all of a sudden, this decision maker that your sales team has been trying to get at for eight months to a year. Now all of a sudden that person's wanting to talk to you. But it's getting marketing to understand that the show should be used that way and can actually drive away more revenue, you can have a show that's getting 60 downloads an episode driving hundreds of thousands of dollars for your business. That's right, instead of thinking that the show needs to be getting thousands of downloads an episode it just that's just not that's just not reality, it doesn't need to happen that way.

Scott Rivers:

Yeah. And what I have found as well, and this happens with me talking to you or anyone else that we've had on the show, people will tell you what they're thinking people will tell you what their issues are, they'll just talk about it. So I think and I want to jump into this and maybe get some tactical items here on the table. But I think even in the the business of life sciences, diagnostics, genetics, oncology, I keep throwing those out. Those are an area that we focus a lot in, I think that there's opportunity to learn more about your customer by having conversations like this. And marketing doesn't have to be all about, here's what we offer, this is what our tool can do. This is the instrument here's the asset, here's the test, here's, here's how we can affect your your COVID testing. Yes, those things are all important. But laboratorians also want to talk about, you know, how they're financially taking care of the laboratory, or the fact that some of their testing the what they're getting from CMS is dropping right now as opposed to what it was earlier in the year. Those are things that I think are important. And I don't know that all people in marketing or even sales ever get to learn about that because they're pushing their own agenda.

James Carbary:

Yes, you're exactly right. I think when you when you start to see how many benefits there are from taking this approach of collaborating with your ideal buyers and creating content with them, yes, the relationship with that contributor that now can map to revenue is one benefit, but the learning like when you when you have let's say you have multiple people from your team, co hosting your Company show, which is a, something that we advocate heavily for. And I absolutely think you should have multiple people from your sales organization, co hosting your show, because with every guest they talk to even if that guest doesn't turn into business for them, they're learning their challenges, how they talk, how they're viewing different things that are happening in the space, which then informs how intelligent they sound to prospects that they are inactive deal cycles with. So our Director of partnerships right now, Logan, he's co hosting b2b growth. So he's talking to be marketers every day, but he's also doing sales calls every day. Right? And when he when he's on those sales calls, and somebody mentioned something, and he says, Oh, you know, I was just talking to the VP of Marketing at this company, who, you know, the prospect knows is like in their space, or they've heard of the company or whatever. And they were saying that this, isn't it. Now Logan is having conversations with with the mark with this marketer. And at a higher level than just our service, what are their having strict teejet conversations, because Logan understands our buyer like the back of his hand, because he's talking to them on our show. That's right, day after day after day. So the what you can learn from having these conversations, even if it doesn't map directly to this guest became revenue for us is mind blowing. To me, one one tactical thing that I'll say, Scott, that you can go even further with this, and something we've just started doing in the last month. Okay, start putting together so you're asking your ideal clients to be a guest on your show. So you're starting to build those relationships. On the back end of that, start inviting them to be a part of a mastermind group with five to seven other people that have also been a guest on your show. So now imagine this, not only are you having these individual conversations with people in life sciences for to take your your business as an example. But now you say, hey, I've got five other folks that have been on the show that are also in the life sciences space, similar job function, similar industry. And we're going to start doing a monthly call, I'm going to facilitate that call. But we're just going to be talking about what's happening in the like, what's happening in the industry, what your challenges are. And then we're collectively as this small group of five to seven people going to help brainstorm solutions to each other's problems, because we're all in the similar in a similar space and a similar job function accountable to our organization in a similar way. And you're now you're now, as the business owner, of your company, you're facilitating an extremely valuable experience for your potential buyers to learn from one another. And you're at the center, like, you're the centerpiece of that. So you are adding so much value to them. Because you're putting them in direct proximity with their peers who can tangibly help them solve problems in their organization that they otherwise wouldn't have been able to solve. Because, you know, you're in your company, you're in a silo, and you're only dependent on your, you're only typically depending on other people in your company. But you now as a podcast host, not only do you have all this content, and all these individual relationships, now you're starting to put people together inside these micro groups. And I think, I think that that's the kind of community that I want to see more companies trying to build, like, micro communities where you're getting true value from a small group of people, as opposed to just you know, 1000 person, slack group or Facebook group, where you kind of feel disconnected and, and timid, not sure what you're doing. They're not sure what anyone else is doing there. I like

Scott Rivers:

that. That's a that's a great idea. I mean, James, let me ask, I mean, hopefully, we'll actually get into the subjects that we were going to talk about today, but I think we're all covering it. Let me ask you, what keeps people from doing this? You know, what, what, really, because everything in this book, and again, guys, I, I will show this book. And it's funny, I told I told James I did a presentation for a group Sanford rose for for some of their senior recruiters. And I showed them this book, and I talked to them about building the podcast and a lot of the questions were around, you know, how much time does this take to prepare, right? Because people are busy. But what do you find more people say is the reason why they can't do this than anything else.

James Carbary:

You nail that Scott It's time. And and so I think Kevin Dorsey said something really brilliant on Chris Walker's podcast, and I think it was like Episode 69. He said, people would rather lose money, the way they know how to lose money, then they would try something new. Yeah. And so I think people just have it's it's easier to default to spending $200,000 on the trade show execution because we've always done it that way. That's that's something we've always spent $200,000 going to this, these one or two trade shows every year. And I think if you just, I think if people thought more creatively about how, how could we use that $200,000 differently. I also think that people aren't, aren't trying to reverse engineer the result that they're trying to get. And so the whole, this whole content based networking thing happened, because I was I was brand new in business. And I knew that if I had relationships with people that could make purchasing decisions for our service, if I had relationships with those people, they I knew that they would end up deciding to work with us, right? And so my, the entire strategy was born out of me trying to reverse engineer, how do I create relationships with the right people? And I think there's not enough, there's not enough people thinking through things like that. They're just they're so accustomed to doing things the way they've always been done, instead of truly trying to figure out now how can I reverse engineer the result that I'm wanting? Yeah. And, and, and I, and I know that I, when I say the word relationship, it's, it can come across very fluffy. And it's, you know, this fluffy Duffy relationship thing. But I don't think anybody listening to this could argue that relationships are the driver of everything. So you have the right relationship, whether it's you're trying to get a job at your dream company, or you're trying to win an account with a with, you know, a big account, if you're in sales, whether you're trying to recruit, you know, talent for your organization, if you have the right relationship.

Scott Rivers:

It's air cover and makes everything easier. So it just trust to I mean, it's trust. And it's also you're talking about strategic relationships. But the only way that that leads to something else is if you're genuine, and if you've got a good product, and if you can deliver on your product. Yep, those things have to come in the back end, no question. Otherwise, you don't have a company, right? So you can interview everyone in the world. And if you're not genuine, if you don't, if you can't produce the product in a quality manner in a timely manner, like you're supposed to, it's not going to work. And so I think all of those things still play into it still absolutely matter. Yeah. And you talked about the time I think timing is a big excuse. I think the other excuses fear. I think that people have a fear of getting in front of a camera, I think people have a fear of, you know, even conducting interviews. I mean, when I first started, I was awful. I don't flat out, say it, I'm still not great, but I'm trying to get better. But I tell and I think I've had a couple of people reach out to me and say, Hey, what did you mean by this on the podcast, I talk about failing often. And I mean, it I I've had to learn this over the years, that I will try something and fail and learn from it, and then change it and try to make it better the next time. And the more you do that, the better opportunity you have of developing something great. Yes. And so I wish more people. Again, I sometimes don't convey this correctly, I want more people. And in fact, in my company, I challenged people to do things different and fail. And if they fail, as long as we're learning from it, it's a win for me, I can I can grow from that.

James Carbary:

I absolutely agree with that. And just to give, I want to give, I want to give folks as much tactical stuff as I can here. Okay, and and if you think that one of the big fears that people have keeping them from doing this and executing a strategy, whether you work with sweet fish or not on it, honestly, I don't care, I just want more people doing this. And and if your fear is I don't know how to do the interview how I don't want to sound like an idiot talking to my ideal buyers or talking to my strategic relationships, right, I don't know how to create content with them. We've recently developed something we call POV discovery. POV stands for point of view. So the the the key to creating great content is having a clear and distinct point of view on something. The reason Chris Walker for those listening that are familiar with b2b marketing in the b2b marketing world, the reason Chris Walker is taking the b2b marketing world by storm right now is because he's got several distinct points of view that are different than what traditional b2b marketing has espoused. And he shares those points of view often. And so with your guests, whenever you're doing a show like this, using this POV discovery framework, you can actually discover what are the points of view of your guest? And how can you and then draw that point of view out of them so that your content is actually great, because you've done a good job of extracting quality POV. And it's a very simple framework, it's three questions that you can ask cool, you can ask this as a part of the interview, or you can ask it as a part of a pre interview, and then build the episode around the most compelling response. You get to one of these four questions. You could do it either way. Okay, the three questions are this, what's a commonly held belief in our space that you passionately disagree with? And that's the that's a money question. I mean, that is that's going to get them talking about something that is not just money. You're hearing everybody else talking about. So in our world or in my world, I hear people talk about sales and marketing alignment all the time and how sales needs to be aligned with marketing. And it's honestly like, it's, it just makes my eyes roll in the back of my head. When I if I hear one more person talk about how sales and marketing needs to be aligned, I'm going to throw a brick at the at the window, because it's like, Who cares? Like, I know that. But if somebody were to say, sales and marketing shouldn't be aligned, now my ears perk up. Right now I'm hearing something that Wait a minute, that sounds different. And so by framing the question, that way, you're positioning your guest to share their distinct point of view. And just the way you phrase that question, what's a commonly held belief in our space that you passionately disagree with? Okay. And then the next question is, what's something that people in our space should start doing today that they are not already doing? The third question is what is something that people in our space should stop doing today that they probably are doing and it's hurting them? And so by, by asking those three questions, either in the pre interview or the actual interview itself, it's going to create really compelling content with each guest. So hopefully, that's a tangible, that's a tangible tool, that folks listening to this that are hesitant, because they don't, they might not think that they will be a good interviewer. Those three questions will make anybody a great interviewer. That's awesome.

Scott Rivers:

Yeah, I think that's fantastic. And again, we wanted to get tactical that's doing it. Let's also focus again, let's go to medical sales companies, let's go to medical sales. And you tell me marketing or sales? Who should, in your mind be leading this effort? Number one, number two, how would they start? And and what would they do to get started with this? Let's say that they obviously, I want you all to reach out to sweet fish media. Without question. I also want to know where that name came from before we end. But you know, I say reach out to them. James's group does phenomenal work. And a lot of the people that he's mentioned, are using him or have used him. And so in fact, I hear it on who did I hear john barrows was talking the other day asking someone, what did you use sweet fish for that? And so, you know, you've got some big names that you're working with. So I, I want everyone to go work with you. But medical companies, who should lead the charge, and how did they get started?

James Carbary:

Yeah, so I think the most of the companies that we're working with, it's coming through marketing. So marketing is leading the charge, I would love to see sales leading the charge on this, I, we've found that that marketing gets so much, they get so much more juice from the squeeze of the show when sales is really bought in on it. Yeah. So if you can, if you're a sales leader, out of out of medical company, run, like brick, like, try to spearhead this, I don't see it often. I don't think we have any clients where the sales team is our point of contact. It's always it's always marketing. But I do think that it can work either way. But having sales buy in on it is huge, because sales can start to inform, hey, these are the guests that we want on the show because these their decision makers that target accounts that our sales team is trying to break into. So that and then as you're thinking through how do I first get started, I think you first have to get really clear on what are the most profitable relationships for our organization, you can you can look and say, Oh, we've got lots of different buyers, what's the most profitable start there? Who who brings the most profit into your organization, and start there, because when you build the show around the persona of your most profitable relationship, every you're going to see results pretty quickly. Because if you if you're going after, say, we do shows in a lot of different industries, but just as an example, HR leaders, if you if you have a technology product that the VP of HR sells or buys from you, how can we build a show about being an HR leader, so that we can go to those VPS of HR, have them talk about their expertise, which is leading the HR function in an organization, and that content is going to be hyper relevant for other VPS of HR? Right? That's right. And so so you first but you first got to get clear on who is the equivalent of your VP of HR? Is it you know, what's, what's the job function? What's the job title, what size of company,

Scott Rivers:

once you're clear on that and you build in you brand the show around creating the most helpful content for that specific persona? Then Then you can really you have the you have the foundation of a solid strategy. So I've got people in my head that I'm already thinking about I'm going to forward this to in the marketing and sales side of our clients just to give them these ideas, James so often phone starts ringing off the hook. You're gonna know where it came from. Let's talk about I want to hear before we get off here, and I know we're gonna run out of time sweet fish media. How'd you come up with that name?

James Carbary:

Yeah, so my roommate one of my roommates, back when I very first started the company, I'm obsessed with the candy Swedish Fish. And I was trying to I didn't want to name it, you know, I didn't want to name it Carberry media and and so I was like, What? How can we name this business around something that's like a part of my personality but not, you know, overtly me. And my roommate at the time was like, how, you know, you really like sweetie fish? So we're like, Oh, is it red fish? You know, is it what what could it be? And then my roommate at some point said, Well, what about sweet fish? And, and it stuck? So So it's, I wish there was a more elaborate or explanation behind the name. But it's really because I'm a candy head.

Scott Rivers:

That's great. And I love the name. Let me ask you this. How can people find out more about you? Do you have anything new coming out? What's the next book? You know, anything else that we can talk about? And how can people people reach out to you?

James Carbary:

Yeah, so James at sweet fish. media.com is my email. We've got a book coming out. Next, I think summer, so summer of 2021. It'll be on thought leadership, co writing it with our Director of audience growth, Dan Sanchez. So that that's coming down the pipe. But James Swedish media.com. We'd love to hear from you always, always love talking to folks that are trying to figure out the strategy and what it can look like for them. Sweet fish media.com is our website and then I'm super active on LinkedIn.

Scott Rivers:

Yes, you are. I've seen that. Let me ask you. And I keep saying let me ask you, I could go on all day long. All right, this book was written a few years back now.

James Carbary:

So a lot earlier this year, yeah,

Scott Rivers:

January 2020. So I was looking at 2019 for the copyright on it. And when it was actually put together, based upon feedback, and what you've seen, actually on the ground, any changes you'd make to this, anything you'd add to it, or

James Carbary:

I would add what we talked about with mastermind groups and nurturing relationships by getting your former guests into small groups of five to seven. And having those groups convened monthly, I would also add something about doing original research with your guests. So having a set of 10 to 15, rapid fire questions that you ask it can be separately recorded. But I think I think doing original research, you're already talking to these people on on your show, having a set of questions that can provide insights to the market, whenever you say, Hey, we interviewed 100 people in life sciences. And this is what they said about whatever we're asking questions like, because our audiences, marketers were asking questions like, what are the marketing channels that are that are the most successful for your business? We're the Marketing Leaders that you're most influenced by? What's your What's your favorite marketing book of all time? What are the most overrated trends in b2b marketing right now, what are the most underrated trends? And so when we go and we're, I think we have like 65 responses right? Now, once we get to 100, we're gonna start to analyze all of that data, and be able to say like, 81% of b2b marketers say that their most that their most successful marketing channel is, whatever it is, that's going to be really compelling content. And, and it's very easy to do, especially if you're already doing a podcast. So I would add those two things, mastermind groups, and original research. Fantastic.

Scott Rivers:

We're all about talent. Okay, we always want to talk about talent. I'd love to get your thoughts on talent. What are the things you look for? And then what are those things if you see it, you just you want to hire it? You want it as part of the team? And and I've seen all I've seen a lot of videos with Logan, I saw your video where you were you brought Dan in and talked about him and his new role. Killer guys. So you're finding great talent? What are those things that you look for?

James Carbary:

Yeah, so I think the biggest thing, I don't think it's crazy unique, but it's values alignment. So a couple years ago, we got real clear on what does our organization care about. And it's loving people well, never stop learning and own the result. So those three things as I'm as I'm looking for talent in our organization, they have to be able to exhibit a deep care for people. A passion for learning, and exhibit a level of ownership and responsibility, personal responsibility for actually doing what they say they're going to do. So those three things, love people well never stop learning on the result are are the things that I'm looking for.

Scott Rivers:

Awesome. And, James, it's been an absolute pleasure. I know that you've got to run and have other things going. I can't recommend this book enough. Again, I'm going to put up things like a fifth time jonesing I can't recommend this book enough. There's nothing in this book that you're going to look at and go oh my god, I can't do that. You're gonna look at this and say, that seems too simple. And I can show I can show you what I've done. And I've done this with other people. I show them the messages I send out I can even show the message that I sent you to connect with you Which it's a very simple message. And it's getting Yes, more often than not. And it's allowing me to have great conversations with people like you. And so James, for that I am extremely grateful and appreciative and I hope that we are friends will be able to talk more in the future.

James Carbary:

Yes. Thank you so much, Scott. I've loved this conversation. And thank you so much for being an advocate for this strategy and, and hopefully getting it into into a lot more ears and minds, because I really think it can be transformative. So I appreciate you so much.

Scott Rivers:

Awesome. And I appreciate it. We'll talk soon, James. Thank you. All right. Take care. Well, my friends, you have just listened to another talent talks podcast with your host, Scott Rivers, I am ecstatic that we were able to get James on the show. I appreciate him and sweet fish media for joining us today. And I know that you've gotten something out of this. If you are interested, please feel free to reach out to him using the email that he suggested. If you are not connected with them on LinkedIn, connect with them on LinkedIn. Let them know you heard about him on the talent talks podcast with Scott Rivers. I would greatly appreciate that. I think that there's so many opportunities for content based networking, and I'm gonna plan on implementing some of the things that James talked about today. I hope that you will do the same. If you have any questions or comments for me, please reach out to me at s rivers at circa talent.com. Until next time, everyone, you've just listened to the talent talks podcast. hope everyone has a great day. Take care everyone