An Audacious & Beautiful Flavor Of Coaching - #40 Katie Macks Offers

Pleasure and joy might be deemed frivolous by society at large but according to Katie Macks they are your birthright.

Katie Macks is a leadership coach, and her brand is Audacious Leadership.

From Katie's website: "Audacious leadership values our differences and creates an environment of belonging. We value and fortify one another with dignity, respect, and love and we’re changing the way business gets done! We are ushering in a new paradigm of leadership and business practices that changes the way we relate in our businesses and in our lives."

Katie's message and coaching will be of benefit to anyone listening, but for real estate agents there's the added bonus that Katie was a top-producing real estate agent in a past life so she really understands and can empathize with the personal challenges faced by real estate agents. 

To schedule a 30 minute alignment call with Katie at no cost please click here.

Transcript

Declan 0:00

This is Declan Spring. Welcome to the podcast. Pleasure and joy might be deemed frivolous by society at large, but according to Katie Max, they are your birthright. My conversation today is with Katie Max. Katie is a leadership coach and her brand is Audacious Leadership. Katie's message in coaching will be of benefit to anyone listening, but for real estate agents, there's the added bonus that Katie was a top-producing real estate agent in a past life. So she really understands and can empathize with the personal challenges faced by real estate agents. I can't think of a better way to end the year and start a new one than to chat with Katie. So as you settle down to work on plans, goals, and your ambitions for 2024, you might discover in my conversation with Katie that you'd like to chat with her yourself. I put a scheduling link in the show notes so that if you feel compelled, you can schedule a 30-minute alignment call with Katie to see if she and you are a good fit. Katie offers that phone call for free. Okay, so wishing you and yours a very happy new year, and now here's my conversation with the audacious Katie Max. And there's so much help that you can give people. So even trying to understand what we should focus on is is you know is it's interesting to me. I'm it I'm interested to see how this conversation unfolds. Um, and especially since you were a licensed realtor for many years and worked in the field locally here in the East Bay, that makes you a very interesting coach. Uh but let's talk about your coaching. Okay. Audacious leadership. And Katie Max, let's talk a little bit about you know your your background and how you got into doing what you're doing.

Katie 2:47

So I was introduced to personal development at a very young age, in my teenage years. And it was something that spoke to me profoundly because I was really curious why are we really here? What is our purpose? What really matters in life? And I grew up in San Francisco, I grew up in the 60s and 70s, and so social justice was at the forefront, environmental justice was at the forefront. And that has always been a driving factor in my life to really understand the impact that each one of us makes, not only in our lives, but in our community and globally. And it just got me so interested in the human condition.

Declan 3:37

Well, who introduced you to this aspect of life, especially as a young person?

Katie 3:43

Um, I I discovered it actually. Really? Um, I had a someone who was a national figure who I really felt like was my mentor. Um I had a lot of struggles when I was young, and I just didn't understand and didn't have perspective on why bad things happen in this world.

Declan 4:04

Yeah.

Katie 4:05

And I was 11 years old, and we were watching the news, and this woman, Shirley Chisholm, came on the television, and she was the first black Congresswoman that was elected in New York.

Declan 4:18

Okay.

Katie 4:19

And when I was 11, she was running for president.

Declan 4:22

Wow.

Katie 4:22

And here was this tiny African-American woman who was so bold and so courageous. She had a lisp. Um, she so she didn't like look the part, right? But she was driven by her passion for justice. And when I heard her speak, I went, that is what I'm attracted to. 11 years old. 11 years old. She was a leader, right? Like such a brave leader. And it wasn't about the outcome of becoming president, because I think we all knew that was not gonna happen. But it was her stand in the world that spoke to me. I was like so inspired. And so I took Muni down to her office when I was 11 and or like her campaign office, and I ended up volunteering, and I was with all these amazing adults, and I just saw culture and dreams kind of all colliding, and I went, I want to be a part of that. Wow. So that's really where my motivation started.

Declan 5:25

That's a wonderful story and a beautiful demonstration of you know what exposure to, you know, hopefully good stuff, but bad stuff. Yeah, any kind of exposure to a young adult, a child, or young adult. I mean, the this is this is incredible. The impact that we can have. And as you said, she was chasing a dream to run for president, et cetera, et cetera. That outcome didn't matter. What mattered, what had the impact on you, was just that this person. Was her drive.

Katie 5:58

It was her drive. It was yeah, it was what mattered. She was so bold to talk about things, and this is something that I'm also very bold about talking about things that people don't necessarily want to talk about, right? Like justice. What does that mean? Um like really making changes that benefit the whole, not a few. And those speak to me in profound ways still today. Okay.

Declan 6:25

And so, 11 years old, I gotta know what happened after that. You went, you went, you see, your campaign, you went to her campaign office, and then and I I became an activist.

Katie 6:35

I was like, I am a stand for humanity. Now, part of what drove that was I couldn't deal what was happening to me in my own life, right? But it opened up doors of compassion to what other people were dealing with and experiencing. Okay. And so I was driven by equity and by just overall justice, racial justice, um, gender justice, environmental justice. Because when things were happening in my childhood that were not okay, I I really think this is the blessing of being a human, is it catapulted me to care for others. Yes, I could. Right? Because I didn't know how to care for myself.

Declan 7:17

Uh-huh. Yeah, you didn't have the maturity to care for yourself. That's right. You couldn't self-examine in the correct way. I mean, all of that takes tremendous uh skill.

Katie 7:28

And at 11 years old, you really don't know how, but as I grew up, um, like I'll give you an example. So uh when I was in high school, I was at a high school where white was the minority, it was predominantly black.

Declan 7:41

Uh-huh.

Katie 7:42

Um, and they took away 17 teachers from our school because budgets around education can be very tenuous. Yes. And so instead of taking money across the board out of schools, they took it out of schools where they felt like they could. Okay. Okay, because we live in an unjust culture, right? So we're gonna take it a money out of the school. So I planned a student sit-in. We got all of our 17 teachers back, uh-huh, and it started a movement throughout San Francisco, and so I was like, oh, this is so exciting, right? To be able to put a stake in the ground and say, we all matter. Each one of us matters. And I think that many people don't understand how much we all really matter and the impact that we can all make.

Declan 8:32

Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. Well, yeah, you do know. So this is interesting to me. You you you got this uh wonderful uh opportunity to do, you know, in your life to to affect change and and see how you know positive outcomes that benefit everyone who matters, you know, are uh uh within reach, right? Absolutely, but then you did mention at the same time in your own personal life, perhaps you you weren't able to affect that you weren't examining your own life in the same way. Right.

Katie 9:06

It was almost like I was taking all of my pain and putting it into something that could actually make a difference, right? Right until I became an adult. And I would say when I was about twenty, yeah, I started to really delve into personal development work. Okay, and that's when I went, oh, the pieces are coming together, and I need to face what occurred in my life to get to move beyond whatever limitations I put on myself.

Declan 9:35

You know, at some point the Katie Max that I'm chatting with today, you know, emerged as fully, right? And so what's the mission statement of KD Max now, this fully formed coach?

Katie 9:47

I would say that simply put, freedom is your birthright. Emotional, spiritual, physical freedom is your birthright. And if people are distressed or unhappy, that it is your birthright to find your way to joy. That is really what I believe. And um I think you know, we live in a culture that thinks pleasure and joy is frivolous, right? We really have learned to suffer through all of our institutions with religious institutions, our educational systems, you know, we don't learn that joy is something that we should seek.

Declan 10:36

Right.

Katie 10:36

Right? There's a there's a whole conversation about like if I get through my suffering, I'll get to the other side and it'll be so much better. Um, and so most of the people that I work with are just mired in suffering. Most of humanity is mired in suffering at some level, right? And so I'm here to say you can have freedom from all of the things that have bound you in your life.

Declan 11:02

Wow.

Katie 11:02

And it's a journey to freedom.

Declan 11:05

That's that's quite a promise. You know, for me, I I often find that understanding the the meaning of words to each individual is important. Like when you use a word like joy, um what what what are we talking about even like so so understanding and defining joy for me is going to be very, very relevant. Because if I don't understand, like because people you think you know what joy is, but then you look at it closer and you go, well, well, maybe I don't know what I'm what I mean. So what is joy? What is the joy that you're what is the joy you're naming as being my birthright?

Katie 11:44

It's what would light you up and turn you on. So I don't have like a statement of what joy is. Each person knows what brings them joy.

Declan 11:53

Okay.

Katie 11:53

At some level. So you can kind of scratch at the surface. So for some people, it could be just having room to be creative. You know, if they're if you're an artist and you sing or you paint or you dance, like finding your joy in your artistry. Uh-huh. For other people, um, it's just being able to connect in relationships deeply.

Declan 12:16

Okay.

Katie 12:16

Right? Um, for me, joy is found in our senses, our sight, our smell, touch, sound, right? Like it, like joy is being in the moment. But see, I think we're so not in the moment, Declan. Like we are so either in the future or the past, and that's really where suffering lies, as opposed to being present right here. Like sitting here with you, I am experiencing so much joy, looking into your eyes and having a really deep conversation. Uh-huh. Right? That brings me joy. That brings you joy.

Declan 12:52

When when would when was your epiphany, your your moment where you understood that this was first of all, that you understood perhaps that you didn't, you weren't actively living in the joy that you wanted. And when did you go on your own personal quest? What was that glimpse?

Katie 13:13

I would say it really landed for me five years ago when I did some really deep work on the divine feminine. Okay. But but I want to talk about what joy was for me in the past, which was like I could have joy compartmentalized. So I could be joyful when I was on vacation. I could be joyful when I was having a break from some struggles, right? I could experience joy when I was spending time with people, but it was very black and white. I was so in the grind of work, I was so in the hustle and grind to make money that that wasn't where my joy was. And now it's like it is encompassing all parts of my life. It is not compartmentalized. I don't want to just have joy in certain areas that comes to an end. And I think, you know, when we experience joy, what I hear a lot from my clients is they wait for the other shoe to drop, like, oh, this feels really good, but it's not gonna last. So we immediately interrupt like really positive, fun, joyful moments because we don't trust it and we can't go with it because we we don't live in the moment. We live in the future or the past.

Declan 14:25

Right.

Katie 14:26

Right. And so for me, that is something that I really have integrated.

Declan 14:32

Yeah.

Katie 14:32

Um, and and I want to say I'm human, so it's not like I live this perfect life. I struggle still. I want to be really clear because I feel like so much of the coaching world is like I've got the answers, and I do have the answers, and sometimes I'm more able to work my tools than other times, and it's really humbling. It's a humbling process to be on the journey of awareness and um and finding your way to your joy.

Declan 14:59

How do you have a bad day joyfully? How do you not get back to compartmentalizing? Oh, today is not my joyful day because I have to focus on this serious issue, and then joy gets pushed to the side, you know, this is you know, because you're not being present. Like, how do we how do you have a bad day? Because we have bad days. Oh, how do you absolutely so how do you have a bad day while maintaining joy?

Katie 15:26

I don't know if you maintain it. I think you choose it. Like, you know what? I need to pause. Things are not really working the way I want them to work. Right. So I'll give you an example, and this happened to me the other day. I was good doing all this technology stuff that was just driving me crazy. Yeah. And because that's just not my gift, is technology, right? So I was doing this stuff and I was getting really frustrated, and then everything just kind of fell apart. I missed a call. Like it was just, it just was a complicated day. And I realized, oh, yeah, it's because I kept pushing through it. If I had just paused and said, you know what, this isn't working right in this moment. Yeah. And I took 10 minutes for myself to just self-soothe, to breathe, to move my body, maybe to change my environment, get outside, take some deep breaths, then I get more connected to myself.

Declan 16:24

Okay.

Katie 16:25

Rather than going down, you know, the path of like more frustration, because that's what ends up happening. Once I realized it, I stopped, I paused and went, oh, of course that didn't work out. And of course I missed that appointment because that's what happens when I get too overwrought in situations. And I have the ability to say, you know what? I'm gonna pause and I'm gonna change my plans, I'm gonna renegotiate that phone call. Yeah, because that wasn't a fire. I think it's being able to also discern what has to get done and what doesn't have to get done.

Declan 16:59

Yeah.

Katie 17:00

Right? Instead of just getting into this drive that pushing, pushing, pushing. Yeah.

Declan 17:05

Yeah. So your skills, let's let's talk about your skills and what it is you do and the you know, what it is you you want to try and promise to your clients and to people. Let's do it like this though, because I want to kind of navigate into what your skill set is for people. Let me ask you who is your what what kind of client do you generally attract? And why is it do you attract that kind of client and what is it you can do successfully for that client? And they walk away and say, Okay, I've got a much better handle on this. That might help us to understand what it is you do by understanding your client base and what it is you do for them.

Katie 17:43

Yeah, well, it's really interesting. I think my um my clients are really creative people. Um, they haven't quite fit into our culture and our cultural norms.

Declan 17:57

Okay.

Katie 17:58

So um that that is absolutely my experience. Like I've always been kind of outside the cultural norms. I'm kind of a wild woman, I'm really expressive, I'm not super quiet, I take up space. Those kinds of things our culture doesn't celebrate in women.

Declan 18:15

Okay. Interesting. Wow. Yeah. I'm just like a 50-year-old Irish guy, so you know, I I can only listen.

Katie 18:23

Yeah, well, it's, you know, there's expectations that our culture has put on us. Like, what is a man supposed to be? What is a woman supposed to be? How are we supposed to behave? What's acceptable? What isn't? And most of us really don't fall into those categories. We are human beings that are sensitive and have dreams and want to feel better in this world. Right? And when you don't fit those molds, we feel left out. We don't feel like we belong. And then we try to navigate like, how do I twist myself in a pretzel? And these are really my clients, so that I feel like I can belong. How do I work really hard to be accepted by others rather than accepting ourselves? And that's that is what I help people do. Because if you if let's say I don't accept myself, yeah, like I'm really judgmental on myself, I'm really hard on myself, I'm actually quite mean to myself. And you see me and go, oh my God, you are amazing. You are so incredible. We can't let that in because we have an internal conversation that says, I'm not enough or I'm too much. So we can't receive other people's insights into us because we have beliefs about who we are and who we're not.

Declan 19:38

Yeah, I hear you. Right?

Katie 19:40

And so when we do the internal work, and I really call this inner activism.

Declan 19:45

Yeah. Oh, I like that. Let's just take a second there because I haven't heard that.

Katie 19:49

Okay.

Declan 19:49

And I just want to let that sit for a second. Interactivism. That's nice. That conjures up. You know what that does for me? It it gives me a sense of empowerment. Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. Is the first thing I felt when you said that. When I had never heard that phrase before. Interactivism. I now feel like, okay, where are the tools? Because I like the sound of this. Okay, I just wanted to pause on that because it's very cool. That's awesome. Interactivism.

Katie 20:16

So how I came to that was my whole life I I was like caring for others. Uh-huh. And I was never included in that. So even if I took things to the streets and I was a stand for women, for LBGTQ, for um for oh my god, just a litany of things.

Declan 20:36

In your life as a social activist, you because there's a metric for how involved you were. You probably got arrested how many times? 17 times. 17 times. I've I just wanted to just put that out there so listeners can understand just how uh um how engaged you were with your activism, your well, you know, your social activism. 17 arrests is pretty it's pretty it's a pretty powerful demonstration of of just how committed you were to that.

Katie 21:04

So then interactive is but then I realized like, oh, I'm not including myself in that. I'm really good, and maybe your listeners can relate to this. I'm really good at fighting for others or standing for others, but standing for myself has been the hardest thing. And I want to bring that into real estate in a minute because I think that that's really important because of the dynamics in real estate.

Declan 21:28

Good.

Katie 21:29

Um, but really the the piece for me is I don't take it to the streets anymore, right? Other people can do that, right? I'm 63, you know. I I there's a whole lot of people that can really take a stand for social and environmental justice. I really want to work with people who want to do the work to be their best advocate, to find their joy, to be turned on in life. Because going back to the suffering, most of us have done what we were supposed to do. Whether it's earning money, money, whether it's buying a house, whether it's getting married and having children, these things that are expected. And then often people look up and go, I'm miserable. I'm not aligned with any of this. How do I find my way back to me and what it is that I want? We learn to bury that as children. Right? We we bury our curiosity, we bury our creativity. We're told we're too much and not enough. So we've all kind of, you know, bended to like the feedback that we've gotten. And so my clients are tired of that. And there's no self-justice in that to betray ourselves anymore. Right. So my most people don't even know it's happened, though.

Declan 22:48

Right. That's you know, that's the that's the worst part. That's why I asked you when was your epiphany, your realization that you were doing all this out there, but that you needed to shine the light back in here. Because most people don't even know. We get hoodwinked.

Katie 23:01

Oh, completely. And that's why we we get so disillusioned. Here we have we have our dream. You know, we've we've got this amazing job, we're making good money, we've got this family, we've got this home. And there's something in me that is so empty because we haven't fulfilled our own authenticity or we've compromised so much to be able to fit in and belong. And I think, you know, none of my clients really feel like they belong.

Declan 23:32

Right?

Katie 23:32

Because they're creative, because they're different, because they speak their mind, because you know, they do things that aren't necessarily in the acceptable realm. Okay. You need to learn to like and love yourself, right? Instead of being so hard on yourself. I spent years being so hard on myself. I would fight for you, but then I would think, I would say the most horrible things to myself. Oh, you're not smart enough, you're not good enough, you're too fat, you're not this, you're what like I just was so hard on myself for most of my life. And I still can be thrown to that. Yeah, but I stop it because there is no cheese down that tube. There is none. And that, like when I start being hard on myself, I will pause and breathe and self-soothe and connect with myself.

Declan 24:22

Yeah.

Katie 24:23

Because that self-harm is excruciating. And I do have one rule in my work, which is no harm. Okay, no harm, no harm to anybody and no harm to yourself.

Declan 24:35

Yeah, good. It's a good guideline.

Katie 24:38

Yeah, but we're so used to not being nice to ourselves, right?

Declan 24:43

Right?

Katie 24:44

Being really hard or second guessing and doubting and shaming ourselves. And all of that keeps us from being fully who we are.

Declan 24:54

Right. Well, there's, you know, a voice in the head. There's a the tenant as somebody, I think it was who wrote that book on tethered soul. Oh, I love that. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I love that book. He calls it the tenant. Who is the author of that book?

Katie 25:08

Oh, God, I don't remember right now. You know, being an interactivist is saying, you know, I hear you, but it's really not true. Let's just get really real about who we are. Let's just tell the truth and say, you know, there's parts of me that I love and parts that I don't. The parts that I don't are the old, the old stories, yeah, right. And that's what I know I get to intervene on. Right. It's just, it takes me out. And I'm the one taking me out. Right. And that's just not okay. Yeah. Right. So we have there are so many tools that I use, but that that is the interactivism to say, I am gonna do no harm to myself. I like it.

Declan 25:51

Yeah. I like it. Because it's it's it's um it's an insidious little, you know, voice that that uh starts to call up from down. It's just a little echo at first, but it kind of can rise up.

Katie 26:05

Oh, it can be so loud. Well, it it it it does get really loud, and it really gets in our way. And then, and this is something I wanted to talk to you about, we can often go into trauma responses with our own conversations about who we think we are and who we think we aren't.

Declan 26:22

Okay.

Katie 26:22

Okay, and so when I talk about, like, I think we're all traumatized. Yeah, I am looking at our world right now, and everyone I am talking to is highly traumatized. Okay. And I want to normalize that. That is okay. We have all been through a lot, especially the last three years. Yes, right? It has been so hard to go through COVID, to go through the shutdown.

Declan 26:47

Right.

Katie 26:47

Now we're all supposed to go back to whatever the this normal thing is, and people are struggling with that.

Declan 26:55

Yeah.

Katie 26:55

Right? Like, how do I how do I move into this new realm?

Declan 27:01

Yeah, because the world has changed. You nothing ever goes back to normal. There's no such thing. I don't even know what normal is normal is a really is a really useless word. It really is. Oftentimes it's a useless word. But I want to talk about the word trauma, because in your work and in you know, my dealings with you and our you know conversations, um, the word trauma comes up. And for me, again, it's one of those words that, you know, just like Joy earlier, we talked about what what are we talking about? You know, you know, and I'll tell you honestly, be brutally honest with you, I have a hard time with the word trauma because I feel I feel guilty that I don't have the right to use the word trauma in my life. Because I look at other people who've had what I call real trauma, which for me would be like physical, emotional abuse. Fortunately, I've never had that in my life. So to use the word trauma myself, I just feel like no, no, that's an appropriation. I should leave that word to people who are, you know, truly traumatized by whatever metric I have in my mind. So, you know, even to even just the word trauma, allowing myself to use it, how how do we how when you talk about use the word trauma and everybody is traumatized, let's let's understand exactly what you mean by that. Okay, I think that's a brilliant question.

Katie 28:23

Um, so trauma, there's there's a number of different forms of trauma, but I'm gonna talk about two. So there's the big T trauma, which is what you have just addressed, which are the really big traumas where people have been abused, or uh really I see it as collective trauma, what we've just came through in with COVID, war, natural disasters, those are big T traumas. Right. Right, that are evident, fires, all in all of those kinds of things. Yeah. Then there's little T traumas. Okay. And little T traumas build over time. So little T traumas are like paper cuts of feedback that we've gotten. Okay. So I'll use myself as an example. Like, Katie, you're you're too much.

Declan 29:18

I see.

Katie 29:18

You need to, you need to tamp yourself down.

Declan 29:21

I see.

Katie 29:22

And then I go, oh, like there's something wrong with me. Oh no, right? So, but I I could just smile and say, okay, that's fine, right? Like, that's fine, that's your opinion. Right. But it gets in.

Declan 29:33

Right.

Katie 29:34

Right. Um, you're not smart enough for this.

Declan 29:37

I see, I see.

Katie 29:38

And you're like, oh, yeah. You know, you you you could do this, but you're not pretty enough.

Declan 29:43

Yeah.

Katie 29:44

Oh, okay. Or, you know, I'm gonna use real estate as an example. Let's say you're at an open house and somebody's like, oh, I'm gonna, yeah, I want to work with you and I'm really interested in meeting with you, and then they give a false phone number or a false email. Right. That's like a paper cut.

Declan 30:03

Okay, I'm understanding this better.

Katie 30:05

In the face of it, yeah, it's really not that big of a deal. Yes, but they occur over and over and over and over. So it it eventually creates a wound that really infects how we see ourselves.

Declan 30:22

Yes.

Katie 30:23

Right. And it feeds a narrative that is really hurtful.

Declan 30:28

Right.

Katie 30:28

And so that is what most humans deal with.

Declan 30:33

Yeah.

Katie 30:34

Right. So I think we deal with small tea traumas a lot more than we do big T.

Declan 30:40

Can I just tr try and understand things a little more, dig a little deeper too? Absolutely. Like uh, it seems to me, in how you're speaking about this, that those big T traumas, those are actually they they go into the cells of my body and they'll create like real physical response, like uh, you know, just that will completely overwhelm my emotional or my even my capacity to think, right? They're just massive. But these little tea traumas, it feels to me like those little tea traumas over time, those paper cuts, what they might actually do is begin to generate a voice in my head. They are the starting point for that voice in my head. And you can have a bunch of different voices in your head, right? You know, one for this thing that you don't do well, and one for that thing, and they like, you know, they oversee the narrative each time, you know, negatively, every time you want to do. So it seems to me like, yeah, they're at the these little T traumas, these paper cuts, it from what you're saying, it feels like they're the root of those those little voices. Absolutely. And those right, that's how it feels.

Katie 31:47

And and we don't see it as trauma, but they they create a trauma response in us. And I so I want to talk a little bit about how we respond, which actually creates more trauma. So when we're in a trauma response, it's usually we get armored up and defended, right? Like that's really what a trauma response is.

Declan 32:08

Okay.

Katie 32:08

So uh when we've been hurt, we want to protect ourselves, and so we have we go to really four different reactive states. One is fight, one is flight, fawn, and freeze. Okay. Okay, those are responses. So I'm gonna start with freeze, because freeze is a very individualized response, and it there's no energy behind it. Like we just go inward and we want to pull away, and it really is depressed energy. Okay. Okay, so finally, if people have been hurt enough, it's almost like we want to go into a cocoon and be left alone, like just complete block to to anything. That's freeze. Yeah. We also, when we freeze, can um disassociate.

Declan 32:56

Okay.

Katie 32:56

Right? And and so freeze is really hard because there is no energy that comes with it. Yeah.

Declan 33:03

So it's that's my that's what I experience, by the way. Yeah, freeze. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I I work on that.

Katie 33:10

Yeah, like we can't breathe, and oh, oh, and so so that is very real. Then there's fight.

Declan 33:19

Okay.

Katie 33:19

Okay, and fight, and you can travel through all four of these, right? Fight is like we're gonna get bigger, that's not right. And that was a lot of my activism.

Declan 33:28

I see, right?

Katie 33:28

Like, I'm not aligned with this, like we're gonna fight the system, and that doesn't really work either, right? Like the fight is like we get bigger, we feel more dominant, you know, we're aggressive, um, which doesn't leave room relationally.

Declan 33:44

Yeah.

Katie 33:45

Right? It there's not an opening to to deal with the person.

Declan 33:49

Yeah, they say a lot of bullying comes from from fight.

Katie 33:53

Absolutely. That's one aspect, right? But the clients I work with turn on themselves. Uh huh. That's where, that's where they can do their healing. Like, you know, something goes wrong and it's like, oh, you know, you're so stupid. Why did you do this? How can you know, and it's like, how, how can you talk to yourself like that? Would you talk to a friend like that?

Declan 34:15

Yeah.

Katie 34:16

Right? Then there is flight, and flight is I gotta avoid this. Like, I have to flee. Right. And both fight and flight have a lot of energy. Oh, I see.

Declan 34:27

Okay, so they they have movement in the Completely, yeah, sure.

Katie 34:31

Right? Um, or you know, like if there's a conflict, and most people are conflict diverse. So if you're in a conflict with somebody and you want to flee, there's no room for resolution, things just build without the communication, and so that's really problematic with fleeing, and and that's really challenging. Um, and then fawning is something that I think a lot of women deal with, and you can help me out if if men deal with this as much, but uh, fawning is people pleasing and sacrificing your own needs if you feel like, oh, you're upset with me. So in real estate, for example, if clients get upset, which clients get upset, it's their money, it's their dreams, it's there's a lot of dynamics. So it's like people will bend over backwards. Oh, I'll take, I'll take care of that. Like when I was in real estate, I saw a lot of realtors giving money to the you know, to products that needed to be bought, or jumping in and crossing boundaries to just try to take care of the needs of the client.

Declan 35:32

Get through the transaction.

Katie 35:33

Yes, get through the chance. I'll throw money at it, I just want out of here. So there's so there's two of the trauma responses, which is flea and fawn, right? Like I gotta get out of here, but I'll pay for this to end this nightmare. Right. Um, so so what I really help people do is notice if they're in trauma to take a step back and self-soothe, to do self-care, to be mindful, because those reactive states do not get us to where we want to go. They repeat patterns, right? They keep us in cyclical patterns. And we wonder why we're repeating the same things in our relationships or with our clients.

Declan 36:15

Yeah.

Katie 36:15

It's because we are in reaction, and part of the work of interactivism is to kind of pull back the veil and say, that's not my authentic self. That's my reactive self. Am I willing to really get to know who I am so that I can be a choice rather than reactive? Can we call it a trauma loop? Yeah, it's it is a trauma loop. Absolutely. And then we make assumptions with other situations that feel the same, that that's what it is. Most of the time, things are neutral.

Declan 36:48

Right.

Katie 36:48

But we bring our perception of what something is to the situation and go to the same reaction. Right. Does that make sense?

Declan 36:59

It makes sense to me. Okay. Absolutely. You're just talking about interpretation. Everyone's going to interpret, you know, things differently.

Katie 37:08

Right. Someone can have a tone and you go, oh, like someone can be impatient with you. They're having an impatient day themselves. And you take it on, and then you have, oh, oh my god, they don't like me, or I've done something wrong.

Declan 37:20

You know, this is exactly why text messages are useful only to a certain point. Because I might send you a text message with a smile on my face, but you're in a bad mood, or you've been slighted somehow, or you're maybe not talking well to yourself, and you will pour that emotion onto my text as though that was the emotion I was sending the text with. Exactly. It wasn't. So I get what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah.

Katie 37:46

So, like, and we're all in these we're all in reactive states because we don't take enough time out. And I really want to speak to the realtors.

Declan 37:57

Yes.

Katie 37:57

Right. I, when I was a realtor, had a really hard time taking time out. I had a really hard time. I had a lot of fear about losing clients or about losing money, or um I had a few things that were just rock solid. Right. Right. That I would just was that were non-negotiables. But at the end of the day, I put myself last on the list.

Declan 38:22

Yeah.

Katie 38:22

I was depleted.

Declan 38:24

Yeah.

Katie 38:24

Um, I did not take care of myself. I used to make a list of like, oh, I'm gonna do all these things to take care of myself today. And then the day would get full and I was on the wayside. I was just not even there. And I wondered why my self-esteem was low. It was because I couldn't count on myself to take care of myself. I couldn't count on my word for me. I would keep my word with you come hella high water, but not myself.

Declan 38:52

I think ever almost every realtor listening to this conversation is gonna know exactly what you're talking about. And it's a problematic, you know, pay structure. I and I've said it in this podcast before, I'll say it again. It's just it's just difficult the way it's put together. The commission is difficult. You just feel like you've got a bag of sand with a hole in it, and you're constantly losing sand, and you just are worried about how much sand will I have lost by tomorrow if I even sleep tonight. Exactly.

Katie 39:26

Right. And so we betray ourselves, and that self-betrayal feeds a narrative that that keeps us in reactive states. So I was vicious. Oh, it was vicious. I was very fawny in my business. Now, I celebrate that I was a six percent agent. Yeah. Uh I in my 10 years in real estate, I never took a listing for under 6%. Right. It was great because I knew I would be resentful because I knew what each transaction took.

Declan 39:56

Yeah. Right.

Katie 39:57

And that was one thing that was so rock solid. And I fought for it and I stood for it. And those that were not in agreement, they weren't my people.

Declan 40:06

Okay.

Katie 40:07

Um, but I really lost sight on setting boundaries. Like I would say to people, this is how we're gonna work, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. I kept most of them. This was my this was my weakest point, and I will never forget this, and it was a disaster.

Declan 40:23

Okay.

Katie 40:24

Um, I had a couple um who were not on the same page and they didn't want to meet together. And so I said to them, I will not take you out separately. I will not, you know, this is this is how we're going to work together. Yeah. And for people that did not respect boundaries, they were like, Yeah, oh, we couldn't, today we're we're not together. Like they, I would go pick them up and there would just be one. If I had the strength at the time, and I have the strength now, yeah, because boundaries are my best friend, it's like, I'm really sorry, I'm not gonna take you out. This was our agreement, uh-huh, and I'm not gonna do that today. Yeah, so when you two reconvene, let me know when you're available. Yeah, but each that was like a paper cut that I did to myself to say I felt so strongly about that. Yeah, and then when it came down to it, I acquiesced. And that was a paper cut for me. It was one more disappointment that like I didn't honor what I stated because honoring that boundary was my self-care. Right? It wasn't for them, it was for me. Yeah, yeah, and that was my hardest bit was keeping those agreements for me.

Declan 41:44

Okay. Yeah. Understanding understanding ourselves, right? I I mean, there's an awful lot of talk about boundaries. I'm a very curious person. I'm very curious about living a better life. Um I have found myself uh struggling with the word boundaries and finding that you know, some I don't like to set boundaries too rigidly. Because what happens for me, it's kind of a segue here, but it might be interesting to you, is if I set boundaries that are too rigid, it can sometimes um block my inner it block my curiosity. I am preventing curiosity because I'm enforcing a boundary that might be too rigid. So I've had to learn to, you know, it's okay to let leave a little give there because if something is curious to me, I I I have to satisfy that that itch that curiosity itch. Right. And if the boundary gets in the way of that, I might be dissatisfied. And so I have to allow myself not to feel guilty when I, at my discretion, I allow a boundary to be breached. I have to be I understand the joy in that for me, it will be because there's a greater, there's a greater need, which is my curiosity.

Katie 43:00

Yeah, and I think that's really brilliant that you know that about yourself. Curiosity is a driving factor for you. So it's like, oh, this boundary doesn't feel good to me. This is the thing, when you're in touch with yourself and you can say, you know what, this boundary felt right when I said it, yeah, and it doesn't right now. So I'm gonna renegotiate that with myself. That's how I would do it. Like, so that it's not you just moving away from it, but just to be able to state, I'm good, that doesn't feel good anymore.

Declan 43:25

Yeah.

Katie 43:26

So much of what I help my clients with is learning how to tune into what feels good in your body, in your heart, in your mind, right? What feels good to you because you can change your mind. The rigidity is really problematic. Changing your mind is okay. Yes, right, but there are certain things about boundaries. Like I have really strong boundaries for myself, right? In my relationship with my life partner, yeah. Right. That are like this, I don't want to, I'm not okay going. Here. I'm gonna stop this. So if we're in a conflict and we get into an old pattern of, you know, no, it's you, blame and shame, right? Like it's you. It's like, let's just stop boundary time.

unknown 44:12

Right.

Katie 44:13

Let's take the time to tune into ourselves and come back with some compassion and love.

Declan 44:18

Right.

Katie 44:19

And when I talk about love, I'm really talking about self-love. Like that makes me feel really good about myself to say, I'm interrupting something that is not gonna serve either one of us.

Declan 44:30

Yes.

Katie 44:31

Right? I'm not doing it for him, I'm doing it for me.

Declan 44:34

Yes.

Katie 44:35

Right. And I think like for you to be able to claim, like, oh yeah, I'm not like that's not working right here. I'm I'm really curious about that. I'm gonna go investigate that. That's and it brings you joy. That's beautiful.

Declan 44:48

Yes.

Katie 44:48

But the boundary that I set in real estate with not taking people out separately, that was for me.

Declan 44:56

Okay.

Katie 44:57

Okay, like that, because I had been drained by it other experiences, and it was a setup because one of the couples was saying this, the other one was saying that, none of it was together. It doubled, tripled, quadrupled the work, and ultimately it didn't serve anybody because they were all separate conversations and we couldn't get to where we wanted to go.

Declan 45:21

Right.

Katie 45:22

So that was really clear.

Declan 45:24

Yeah.

Katie 45:25

Boundaries, and my boundary around 6%. I'm a 6% agent.

Declan 45:30

Uh-huh.

Katie 45:31

You know, and I'll just share this story. This was really hilarious. So I was um I mean, uh, this was a really big listing over in Lafayette, and um, I was, I went, it was a great presentation. I felt really good about it, and then they contacted me and I sold that I'm I'm a negotiator. Like that is my greatest value to you is negotiation.

Declan 45:50

Okay.

Katie 45:50

And this other person came in who was like the top realtor in um uh La Mirinda.

Declan 45:57

Okay.

Katie 45:57

Uh this human came in and said, everyone's doing discount. So if anyone's talking about six percent, that's just ridiculous. Uh-huh. So these people really wanted to go with me, and they called me for three months. Wow. And they were like, Katie, we really do want to go with you, but could you just come down half a percent, right? You could take the three and give two and a half. It was shown to us like how normal that is.

Declan 46:24

Yes.

Katie 46:24

And and after three months, and I just said no, like that's if you want to go with a discount, go with the discount and get everything on the front end.

Declan 46:33

Right.

Katie 46:33

Right? Like that's that's my advice to you, right?

Declan 46:36

Right.

Katie 46:37

So finally, after three months, they were still hammering, and I just said to them, How would you really feel after three months of me talking about my negotiating skills, and then I'd give in to you.

Declan 46:50

Yeah.

Katie 46:50

How would that feel? There'd be the immediate win of like, oh, we got her down. But wait a minute, she told me she was a negotiator, and she folded.

Declan 47:00

Yeah.

Katie 47:01

That is incongruent.

Declan 47:03

Yes. No, I totally, totally get that.

Katie 47:06

I think each person needs to really say what is most important to me.

Declan 47:12

Right.

Katie 47:12

Right? What are the things I value, whether it's your time, whether it's setting boundaries with clients and being really clear. Like I would sit down with people and let them know what they could expect from me.

Declan 47:24

Yeah.

Katie 47:25

And what I expected of them. I was very bold. That bold has been my my thing, right? Which has been really it's challenging to be a bold person in this world, right? But it's also really beautiful because people know what they can count on. And I always did it in the beginning. It was really scary, yeah. But I would say, this is how I work. Yeah, this is what I expect from you. Yeah, this is what you can count on from me. Yeah. And now we get to ch to decide. Yeah. Are we a fit? Yeah. And people that felt like, oh, I I know I can rely on her. Yeah. Like she is really clear.

Declan 48:02

Right.

Katie 48:03

Right? Though so I got the right clients. And I think, you know, it's really hard on real estate. And it's hard in coaching. It's like, I'm not everyone's coach. I wasn't everyone's realtor.

Declan 48:14

Right.

Katie 48:15

Because of the human that I am. And I think it's really being able to say it's important to match up with the right people. When we don't, things hit the fan.

Declan 48:25

Right. And so having an examined self is the key. Right. Right? And so even though you were amazingly good with your you, you know, the the the ground rules you set as an agent, your clarity, your performance in negotiation, your uh, you know, your determination to be six percent, those are all really good. I mean, man, you had it, you had a system, you were doing it, but you got lost in there.

Katie 48:57

Oh, I I was so unhappy. Where I got lost was I did not take any time for me.

Declan 49:03

Okay.

Katie 49:04

Okay, so I got sucked into fear, which is a trauma experience, which was a trauma response to to I gotta do more, I gotta like keep going, I gotta push through, I I don't have the time. Or, you know, I I missed so many things, Declan, that I feel so sad about. I missed uh my nieces and nephews games. I or I'd be at a game and I would be on the phone the whole time. Um, I was not present for so much of my personal life. Okay. I got really sucked into the whole top producer, like the responsibility with that. I don't know. It it was it was really hard, and I did not honor, and I said this earlier, the boundaries with myself. Like, okay, so today I said I'm going to the gym. Well, I'm going to the gym on at this time, come hell or high water. In my coaching business, I swim three days a week, and I swim on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday because it serves me to move my body and to release like energy so that I can be present for the next person.

Declan 50:18

Yes, I get that. You've got some wisdom now. Absolutely. Yes. So have you met any happy realtors?

Katie 50:26

This is gonna be kind of bold, and I I just need to say it. I think for people who are driven by money, yes, there's that real happiness when your commission check comes. Like there is a joy, and yes, and I accomplished, and yeah. My thing is money isn't my driving factor. Right. Relationship is my driving factor. Yeah. Like that's what matters to me. Like developing community, you know, being real with people. Like that's that's what lights me up.

Declan 50:59

Okay. Okay, okay, that's interesting.

Katie 51:02

So I don't, I didn't have as I didn't have that joy with the money. I like I socked away all my money. I just instead of spent it because I was a lot of fear. I saw a lot of people in what year was that, 2010, lose their homes. I so many realtors lost their homes and it scared me. And so I thought, okay, I'm just gonna put away all my money and like, you know, so there was just so many reactive things in that, like you said, are instigated by the system.

Declan 51:33

Yeah.

Katie 51:33

The the pay is ridiculous. I wish people would put down, you know, $3,000 and say, here's, you know, buyers and sellers. Here's my I have skin in the game.

Declan 51:43

Yeah.

Katie 51:44

Right. So they don't even really understand what people do on their behalf all day long. And that's why it's up to the realtor to say, let me tell you what I did on your behalf.

Declan 51:54

Yeah, that's true. You know, that's a separate conversation I've been having with other realtors on the show and on the bridge podcast as well. And it's something that's really, really important at this moment for realtors is to because our our livelihoods are being threatened by various lawsuits and by technology right now, and disruptors in the marketplace. And if realtors can't explain their value, first of all, to themselves, so that they can effectively explain their value to consumers, everybody loses. Because even though I don't the pay structure is is difficult, it's problematic. Um the loss to consumers over the advocacy that they're gonna have if if we get if we get if we get extracted from if realtors, if the realtor gets a taken out of the transaction, you know, consumers might think they're saving some money, but they're gonna lose, they're gonna lose an awful lot of of uh of that care and advocacy that they get right now. Absolutely. So that's just a different thing.

Katie 53:02

Uh but it's really important and it comes back to interactivism. Do you know your value? You've got to know your value to to have your peace, to have your joy, right? Like, I know I'm relational. I am not transactional. I never have been. So I let people know that. I love that about me. I love that I'm relational.

Declan 53:25

Yeah.

Katie 53:25

Right. There are people that are transactional that I would be a complete turnoff to.

Declan 53:30

Uh-huh.

Katie 53:30

Because I'm not like just do this and this and that, you know. Like, I'm like, how you doing? What, you know, what do you need?

Declan 53:36

Yes.

Katie 53:37

Um, I I'm in this with you. Like, we're in the trenches.

Declan 53:40

Right.

Katie 53:41

I get pleasure out of being in the trenches with people. Yeah. Right? It's like my work as a coach.

Declan 53:47

Right.

Katie 53:48

Like, we were not taught how to really own our value. We weren't, you know, we're we're externally focused. Let me, oh, are you upset with me? Oh, what how are what are they thinking? It's all external. And my question is, what are you thinking?

Declan 54:04

Yes.

Katie 54:05

How do you feel in this situation? Because it might not be a fit for you.

Declan 54:09

Yes.

Katie 54:10

Right? And you need to know that in order to take care of yourself. So self-awareness, interactivism, knowing who you are, knowing what lights you up, knowing what doesn't, so that you don't do the things that don't light you up. That's right, back to the technology. Like, I have other people taking care of that because really it's not a joy for me.

Declan 54:32

Right, right. Yes.

Katie 54:34

And some fluky thing happened, and I had to take care of all this stuff, and I just was like, ah, right.

Declan 54:39

Yes.

Katie 54:40

But you knowing yourself is everything.

Declan 54:44

Yeah.

Katie 54:45

And we don't really know what we want, we know what we don't want. We don't necessarily know what lights us up.

Declan 54:52

Right.

Katie 54:53

But we know what doesn't.

Declan 54:55

Right.

Katie 54:55

So the journey to your interactivism is to learn the things that light you up and do more of them.

Declan 55:01

It's difficult. It's difficult work. I'll be honest with you. I still struggle with it sometimes. Because you ask somebody, you know, what are your values? Off the top of our head, we can, you know, we have a kind of an innate moral compass, right? We can tell you, well, do we confuse? I used to confuse values with morals, and all this stuff was all like I knew what, as you said, what I wouldn't do. You know, uh I'm not gonna hurt anyone. She's not my thing, right? So I'm uh but understanding my values, I'm still working on it all all the time. Like well, we're taught too, like to be humble, yeah, which is a bunch of crap.

Katie 55:37

In in not I'm arrogance is one thing. Okay, but being humble for me is being able to say, these are my gifts, this is the value that I bring. I know who I am. I am not perfect, I still run into old patterns, I still make mistakes, right? But I actually can catch myself and I can make it right. Right? Like that I know for a fact about myself. So I'm not as scared about making mistakes, or if I make a mistake, it's coming to the person right away and saying, Hey, I made a mistake, and I want to be really clear about this. I know I can count on myself for that.

Declan 56:16

Right.

Katie 56:16

But like knowing who we are about what we want is a journey. And when you said it was hard, I I want to address that because it is hard.

Declan 56:25

Uh-huh.

Katie 56:26

But it's harder being in reaction. But because we have lived our life in reaction in a trauma response to things, being defended, running away, you know, people pleasing, like those reactions are hard and they don't feed our spirit. They don't make us feel good, they feed a narrative. So is it hard to actually get to know yourself and know who you are and what you value and what you want to bring? And by the way, that all changes as we evolve. Yeah. So it never stays the same. Yeah. Yes, it's hard, but it's not as hard as the pain that we cause ourselves in our reactiveness or in those voices that are not kind to ourselves.

Declan 57:10

Uh-huh.

Katie 57:11

But we're used to that. It's like the devil we know is better than the devil we don't know.

Declan 57:15

Yes, that's so true.

Katie 57:16

Right? But yes, it is work, but there's freedom over here. There's not freedom when we're in reactive states.

Declan 57:24

Right. And so you use the word catch. And so catching yourself. So that's that's that's why a pause is necessary. You need to understand. Oh, I need I need to pause. I gotta catch. Like you can get an inkling that hold on a second, I'm am I reacting? Let's let's pause, right? That's it.

Katie 57:45

We get activated and triggered by things that that you know that scare us or make us feel insecure. And it's like, okay, if I just stop, like I touch my body, I touch my arms, like we operate from the neck up. Yeah, and our body is has so much wisdom and so much information, and we get sensations, and we need to know ourselves in our physical body because the information there, like I I get, you know, get reactions in my body, sensations that are very informative. We get sensations when we're scared, or we, you know, when you get those like spurts through your body of energy where you see like someone's cut themselves, and you're like, oh, like our body is a genius and informs us. Like, oh, this doesn't feel good. I need to pause here. I'm actually going down, I'm feeling really afraid.

Declan 58:39

Yeah, right.

Katie 58:40

But instead of pushing through that, like taking the time to say what's really going on, right? Is this currently happening, or am I bringing an old uh connection to this?

Declan 58:52

Yeah, yes, I hear you. No, I I could never uh just you know, I could never uh read my body for a very, very long time. I've gotten a little better. I'm it it it was now it wasn't uh it wasn't the the a gift that was, you know. I I I didn't I didn't have that gift growing up, it wasn't you are not alone.

Katie 59:14

Yeah, none of us were taught to be in our our bodies were we're avoided. Like we don't we avoid our bodies. If you look at even education about our bodies when we're kids, it's like it's all like hee hee, like uncomfortable talking about our bodies and its functions, and yeah, it's such a weird relationship that we have been educated around.

Declan 59:38

I'm I'm hopeful. I have some teenage uh kids, and I'm hopeful that they're doing a little better with it. Even this, you know, even this gender fluidity, um, you know, regardless of the politics of that, let's set all of that aside because that's a whole big messy conversation. But what I appreciate about it as a parent is that these kids have the freedom to just examine, uh, examine things like gender, which means examining how you feel in your body, all of that stuff. There, so there are blessings. Unfortunately, the political conversation will tend to overwhelm the good that's available in all of this stuff. But I'm hopeful.

Katie 1:00:20

Right. Well, but again, that goes to reactiveness or curiosity. Exactly. Right? And I love that example, Declan, because when people are reactive, they make it wrong, they put it in a box, and if we're curious, doesn't mean we have to like it. It just means we are willing to examine it and look at it and notice our discomfort or notice our excitement and joy. Like, how are things showing up for you?

Declan 1:00:44

Yes.

Katie 1:00:45

And I venture to say everyone is so highly intuitive, and I just want to throw this in there, and that's part of learning to listen to our body. If we just listen to our head, we are gonna go down old familiar patterns versus wow, I'm I'm getting this intuitive hit. These are not my clients.

Declan 1:01:05

Right.

Katie 1:01:05

And having the courage, even in a hard market, to say, I don't think we're a fit.

Declan 1:01:12

Yes.

Katie 1:01:13

And I can refer you to somebody.

Declan 1:01:14

Yeah.

Katie 1:01:15

Right? Because we know so much, but we override our knowing out of fear or anxiety or thinking there's not enough, and it's all lack versus that was so abundant of me to say no, and I still got a referral fee.

Declan 1:01:31

Every realtor has stood in a house to do an open house on a breezy day. Every realtor has had the front door open, they go around, they turn on the lights in the house, right? They open the back door and the front door slams. That happened to me one day in a house, and I immediately recognize it as a practical demonstration of what's true in life. If you close one door, you can open another one more easily. You know, it's just it's there, it's the natural order, but it's having the courage. And if you've seen it, I give the house example, because we've all seen it. And if you can just trust that that's how it works, you know, self-trust.

Katie 1:02:14

So that's the everything comes back to the inner activism. Like, you know, it's not about trusting out there, it's about trusting yourself and then learning from it. And you know, I find joy even in really hard situations where I'm learning things that are really uncomfortable, yeah. Right? Like, because I'm so proud of myself that I'm willing to look and to navigate. And when I'm not hard on myself and I can really celebrate my courage, my self-trust. Um, I have walked away from coaching clients. They're just not up for it, and that's okay. They're and I've referred them to other people, right?

Declan 1:02:56

I get that.

Katie 1:02:57

We get to serve the people that we know we can serve. And that's part of our responsibility to ourselves. Everything comes back to not being responsible to others, but being responsible to you.

Declan 1:03:11

Yes, because you you'll do greater good if you understand yourself, then you'll then you'll be of greater value to the community you're trying to serve. That's right. You understand who you want to serve by understanding yourself. Let's talk about because we've we've chatted a bit, and unfortunately, like I could literally do this all day long. Oh, I could too. So, but that's that's uh, you know, let's just let's talk about um your website. People can find you where.

Katie 1:03:38

They can find me at www.katymax.com. That's k-a-t-i-e-m-a-c-k-s.com. Um, and I'm also really active on social media. You can find me on Facebook at Katie Max, and I am on IG at Katie underscore two underscore the underscore max. So Katie to the max. Okay. And um, and you can reach out to me. I uh if this has sparked anything in you of just a desire to grow or explore who you are and what matters to you, I would love to talk to you. I also offer a 30-minute free alignment call. So if someone's really curious about could this support me, I think most people are pretty unsupported. We we live in a culture that tells us we should know more than we we really should. Right. I gotta figure this out on my own. I'm really lonely, I don't know what this is. It's like you don't have to do it alone.

Declan 1:04:39

Right.

Katie 1:04:40

Right? That is painful. Right. To have someone on your team who has your back, believes in you, has tools. I have so many tools that are so easy to practice. They're not they it it might not be simple, but it's easy.

Declan 1:04:58

Right?

Katie 1:04:59

Yes. Um, and when I chat with people, it just gives me so much insight. It also is a great way to find out if we're a fit or not, just like in real estate. Like we may be a fit and we may not be.

Declan 1:05:10

Yes.

Katie 1:05:11

And there's nothing right, wrong, good, or bad about that. It's a discovery process. And when it's right, it just feels really good. Yeah, right. And part of it is having the courage to say, it's okay to get support. It's okay to be the priority in my life.

Declan 1:05:27

Yeah.

Katie 1:05:27

I've made everyone else a priority my whole life. Right. Now I get to make myself a priority, and I get to find my joy, and I get to be nice to myself, and I get to heal the things that keep me from really living the life I want to live.

Declan 1:05:41

Yeah, absolutely. I'm gonna finish with something, I don't mean to be whimsical or airy fairy or anything, but I'm just feeling a sense of love, and I want to finish this conversation in the heart and with love. And I just want you to riff for a minute on the words. Word love and does that mean anything to you? Oh, it's everything.

Katie 1:06:05

Love is everything. And if we don't have self-love, we cannot be the loving human that we want to be in the world. Right. I for most of my life just loved everybody and hated myself secretly.

Declan 1:06:23

Yeah.

Katie 1:06:24

Right? And so there's an incongruency there. Love is about being congruent. It's about being compassionate. When you can have compassion for yourself, you can have compassion for others. When you have joy, you can share your joy. You know, we live in a world that doesn't really honor love and joy. We do externally. But love, loving yourself is the key to being connected. It's the key to finding your passion. It's the key to self-respect. So I want to do it a little different in love. Like the world, I wanted world peace. I have fought for, you know, a loving world, but the missing link was not loving myself.

Declan 1:07:12

Yeah.

Katie 1:07:13

Right. And when you love on you the way you desire to be loved, everything changes. You deepen your connection to yourself, to others, to your gratitude for what your life has, what you've created. Right. Love is everything. And that is one thing. I just want to say one other thing about love. I love on my clients. Like there is a safety in working with me because I love my clients exactly as they are. Not who they want to be down the road, but who they are in this moment. I can see your light. I can see who you are. It is a superpower of mine. And it's it can be really uncomfortable to be seen. Right? But I see you.

Declan 1:08:02

Yeah.

Katie 1:08:02

That is, it's a superpower. Yeah. I don't see all your stuff. I see your essence. Yeah. And that's what I help pull out of you so that you can love on yourself. That's great. You can teach other people how to love you. Right? Like we teach people how to treat us. And if we're not self-loving, we're not gonna teach people how to be in relationship with us. And that's clients, it's family members, it's your spouse, your partner, your friends, your community. And not just sharing the parts that you love about yourself, but the parts that are challenging.

Declan 1:08:41

Yeah.

Katie 1:08:41

You get to love those too because the little human in you, the little girl, the little boy, they need that love. And that is usually who's reacting in situations in your business, in your life, and in your relationship. So you loving all the parts of yourself is where freedom lies.

Declan 1:09:00

I love it. I I love this conversation. I um I can't thank you enough. And I really hope that we've inspired some people to, you know, reach for the phone.

Katie 1:09:13

Absolutely.

Declan 1:09:14

Or reach for their laptop. Check out. I'll say one thing. Your website's so much damn fun as well.

Katie 1:09:21

Oh, it's really fun. I do have to say, this is so hilarious. Uh, we started to kind of update stuff on trauma because I'm really talking about trauma to normalize it. So right now there's a landing page, and hopefully by next week it'll be up. Oh, by the time this podcast is released.

Declan 1:09:38

By the time this podcast is released, yeah. It'll be up. It'll be up. So people should look at it. I I really like your website a lot. Oh, thank you. It makes me feel bold when I look at your website. Thank you. You know, it does.

Katie 1:09:52

And I want to share that was really hard for me to do. Yeah. To to to put myself out as I am.

Declan 1:10:00

Yeah.

Katie 1:10:00

It's much easier to shrink and to like try to be acceptable, but then you don't know who I am authentically. So that's why it's so bold, because it's like this is who I am. This is this is it. Yeah. And you're gonna decide right away, probably, whether it's like too much for you or not.

Declan 1:10:20

Absolutely. No, it was a smart move because it's certainly not from a template, you know. You know, and yeah, it's it's immediately apparent that you have a voice. Yeah. And you the people who want to sing with you have to, you know, be aligned with your voice. Yeah. It's just the way it is.

Katie 1:10:38

Or inspired. Like that's right. Like, like, I want that, right? And that's really what the attraction is. Like, I want to be able to do my form of that, not like me, sure, right? I don't want anyone to try to like do that. I want people, like you said, with the joy. What brings you joy? What do you want people to know about you? What do you want your clients to know about you? Right? Creating that safety in your life is everything. And when I can put myself out there, I am safer within my being to know it's okay. I can be all of me. And and there's gonna be people that don't like me and I get to learn to live with that, and then there's people that just love me and I get to let that in.

Declan 1:11:21

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Thank you very, very much.

Katie 1:11:24

You're welcome. Thank you.

Declan 1:11:26

Everybody, audacious leadership. Go and be bold, Katie.

Katie 1:11:30

Ah, thank you.

Declan 1:11:37

Thanks for listening to the show. And please don't be shy sharing the show with anybody you think might enjoy it, you know, want to try and reach a wider audience. In 2024, we have lots of great guests on. If you have any suggestions for people you'd like to hear me chatting with, please call me or text me. It's that easy at 415-446-8591. And uh, want to thank as ever Chuck Lindo for the wonderful music in the show, ChuckLindomusic at gmail.com. He can provide great music for any reason, any occasion, any event. And also for the artwork for the show, LisaMazerdesign.com. Lisa Maser is a fantastic graphic artist, and I so appreciate you, Lisa. Catch you on the next show, everybody. Take care.