Blossom Your Awesome Podcast Embracing Our Differences With Michael Fosberg

Blossom Your Awesome Podcast Embracing Our Differences With Michael Fosberg

Author, Trainer, Thought-Leader, Activist, Actor and host of the Incognito: The Podcast joins us. Michael uses his  award winning autobiographical story, told in the form of a one-man play, as an entry point for meaningful dialogues on race and identity.
His book, 'Incognito: An American Odyssey Of Race And Self Discovery' is about his journey of discovering he was part black in his thirties. 

On this episode Micheal shares his incredible story of self discovery having grown up as a white male and passing as white only coming to discover in his thirties that his biological father was black. It's an incredible story and his deep understanding of race and perception add so much more depth to the narrative. 

• We should embrace our differences
• Let's spend less time focusing on what we don't see eye to eye
• Never assume or judge based on what you see cause there is always more to the story 

KEY TAKEAWAY - We each have our own identity that is tied to race by how we see each other and how the world sees us, but ultimately we are so much more than our race and skin color. There is more within to be discovered and more to honored and uncovered about all of those around us.

To learn more about Michael click here.

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Transcript

Sue (00:02.461)
Hi there, today on the show, we have got Michael Fosberg here with us. I am so honored and delighted to have you here. Welcome to the show.

Michael Fosberg (00:10.082)
Thanks, Sue. Good to be with you.

Sue (00:12.821)
I am so honored to have you here and get into your story and the work you do. Give us the backstory here. I mean, it's a really interesting story and then we're going to get into your specialty and all of what you do.

Michael Fosberg (00:29.502)
Yeah, yeah, well, the backstory is the big part about it, isn't it? Yeah. So, um

I, the backstory is my life story and I use my life story to, to hopefully help change other people in the way that we look at ourselves and look at other people. So my backstory is that I was raised in a working class white family in the northern suburbs of Chicago, a little town called Waukegan by my biological mother who was Armenian and an adoptive stepfather who was of Swedish descent. And

So I was raised there. They eventually had a couple of kids my mom and dad a sort of unceremoniously announced that they were getting a divorce when I was in my early 30s and I realized at that time That I didn't know who my biological father was so as I mentioned I was raised by my biological mother and an adoptive stepfather and so

Even though I was in my 30s, early 30s at the time, and they were getting a divorce, I was just really rocked by that announcement. No one saw it coming. My siblings and I didn't see it coming. And so one of the things that happened during that was, I had a British girlfriend at the time, and she suggested that perhaps I had a lot of anger towards my father. And I was like, well,

but he's not the one who wanted the divorce. My mom kind of instigated the divorce. She goes, no, not your stepfather, your biological father. And I was like, I don't even know who my biological father is. And she's like, well, maybe you need to find that out. And so I called my mother and she gave me a couple of bits of information. She told me my biological father's name.

Michael Fosberg (02:19.29)
which was John Sidney Woods, and she told me that the last time she had spoken with him was some 30 years prior and I asked her well, do you remember where he was living at the time? And she said well, I don't really remember. I think maybe he said he was living in the Detroit area

So armed with that information, this was the age before we used the internet for everything. I went to the library. I was living in Santa Monica, California. I went to the library in Santa Monica, California. I don't know if you remember that we used to use this ancient device, um, to find people. It was called phone books. So I went to the phone book section, the libraries had phone book sections and they had phone books from major cities around the country. So I went to the phone book section. I got the Detroit phone book. I looked up his name,

Sue (02:52.397)
I'm sorry.

Michael Fosberg (03:04.47)
John Woods. There were about five or six listings. I copied them all down. I went home. I was living in a little one room rent control department about, I don't know, 10 blocks from the beach or so. And so I gathered the courage. I picked up the phone. I dialed the first name on the list. A guy answers the phone. I said, I'm looking for John Sidney Woods. And he said, you're speaking with him.

And I thought, whoa, it can't be that easy, right? How many guys have that same name? So I said, well, were you, did you live in the Boston area in 1957? Because that's where I lived with my mother and my biological father when I was a child. And he said, yeah, I did.

And then I thought, oh man, this is too, too easy. And I said, were you married to an Armenian woman? My mom was Armenian, by the name of Adrian Pilibosian. And he kind of paused for a minute, it seemed like an hour, it was so tense. And he said, yes, I was. And I realized that I'd tracked my father down in a first phone call after 30 years.

And so now, like, I'm trying to wrap my head around, you're my dad, he's trying to wrap around, you know, like, I'm his son, you know, we're stumbling to try to talk about, you know, catch up on our lives after 30 years, and then out of the blue, he says to me, you know, son, there's a couple of things you should know, I'm sure your mother's never told you. And...

I thought, okay, aside from not telling me about you, I mean, what else could there be, right? And he said, well, first of all, I want you to know that no matter what you were told or what you thought happened, I've always loved you. And I've thought about you a lot. And I was so deeply, deeply touched by that. I mean, I was crying at this point. And then he said, you know, there's one other thing I'm sure your mother's never told you. And I said, what? And he said,

Michael Fosberg (05:14.962)
I'm African American.

And I grew up in a working class white family, thinking I was a white guy my whole life. And now here, my dad is telling me he's black. And I'm like.

What? It was just like, and then he proceeded to tell me about my family history dating all the way back to slavery. My great-great-grandfather was a member of the 54th regiment in the colored infantry unit in the Civil War. My great-grandfather was an all-star pitcher in the Negro leagues. He pitched for the St. Louis Stars.

And my grandfather, my grandparents, his parents, were still alive, living in Virginia Beach, Virginia. My grandfather was a genius in the science and engineering departments at Norfolk State University, a historically back college, was named after my grandfather. And I was like, whoa, can we go back to the black part? Because I'm still trying to wrap my head around the black part. And we talked for a little while and then we hung up the phone and...

And that was the beginning of my journey. Well, I actually, I mean, that wasn't the beginning, but that was the crux of the journey was I just discovered that I was not the person that I thought I was. And, you know, as you've mentioned, this is, at the start here, I sort of turned this into my life's work. And so I had been trained as an actor and a writer. I've been doing this my entire life.

Michael Fosberg (06:42.286)
and I started to write this story. I thought I was writing a book. I'd never written a book before, but I thought this would make a really interesting book. And so I started to write it as a book. But then one night I was asked to read some of the chapters in front of a group of people. And as I did so afterwards, they were just absolutely deeply moved by it. And they said, you should be doing this. And I said, yeah, I'm writing the book. And they said, no, you should be performing it. And so.

From that moment, I started to put it together as a one-man play, an autobiographical one-man play. And, you know, I started in the theater. We put it up in a theater in 2001, October of 2001, and it just took off. And I went from doing it in theaters to doing it for high schools, for high school students, and the way that happened.

was kind of crazy. I was asked to perform it for a group of high school students who were gathered at Northwestern University for a summer theater program. There were high school kids from all across the country. And I was asked to perform the show, which I did. And generally after a show that you do for a group of students, there's sort of a question and answer so that the students can ask the artist, you know.

How did you decide on the blocking, move around on the stage like that? How did you decide on the characters? What made you decide to shape the story the way you shaped the story? You know, questions that would relate to a theatrical program. But instead of asking me questions about that, that night the students asked me things like, what box do you check off on applications? And why?

Why is race so important or why isn't it important or why are we or aren't we talking about it? And how do we go about having these conversations? And I realized in that setting that this had deep resonance for young people struggling with the idea of how do we fit in? How do we look at ourselves and how do we look at other people?

Michael Fosberg (08:54.836)
And it just kept taking off from there. The next thing I knew, I was touring high schools with it, and then I started touring colleges. And then I was at a business college one night, and there were all these corporations there.

And they came up to me after I did the show. So I combined the show actually with a dialogue. So after I do the 50 minute play, I then open it up to conversation and we unpack all the different issues that the play brings up about race, identity, unconscious biases and all these different things. And so after I'd done that, these corporations, these people from these corporations came up to me and said, would you do this for our teams? And so I started to do it.

in corporations and then government agencies and law firms. And it just, you know, kept snowballing. And so that's what I do today, is I take this one man play around the country and I use it as a form of diversity, equity, and inclusion training to get people to have rich, difficult conversations about race and identity.

Sue (10:00.509)
Wow. That's my first response. Now, I have so many questions for you, Michael. So my first question for you, you know, the level of insight you would have believing yourself to be white, being raised in a sounds like very white.

Michael Fosberg (10:01.614)
Thank you.

Michael Fosberg (10:08.066)
Yeah. Yes.

Sue (10:27.549)
environment, right? There are probably, you probably didn't have a lot of black kids around you at all, or I don't know if you went to school with a lot or...

Michael Fosberg (10:33.322)
Well, actually, I think the blessing in this, Sue, is that although my family was white and I was raised in this white environment, I went to a high school that was really, really diverse. It was really diverse. I go back and look at my yearbook, and it is just a beautiful rainbow of colors. And so I had this...

access to people from all walks of life, all different colors, all different nationalities, which was really, really lucky for me. But the whole time, I thought I was white.

Sue (11:09.357)
Mm hmm. Wow. And now so what is the I mean, take us back to that moment. So you get off the call and then, you know, so many revelations, but kind of what are some of the first things that are coming up for you with this new found, you know, understanding around your identity?

Michael Fosberg (11:31.21)
Yeah, well, I guess, you know, one of the first things that happened was I was really angry with my mother. That was the first thing that hit me was, like, my mother had kept this secret from me my entire life. She didn't, you know, tell me the truth. I mean, I never asked any questions when I was young about who my biological father was, but, you know, when I was, I guess my mom, she remarried when I was about four, and...

I was just a young kid. I didn't really process all of this. Like now it was four and I had a dad suddenly. And it was like, oh, okay, great. I got a dad. And so, you know, I just processed that. And then suddenly, you know, a couple of years later, they had a couple of kids. And so, oh, now I got a brother and a sister, you know? And so, I didn't really form this idea of like, oh, wait a minute, who was the first guy? Because I didn't have any memory of that.

And so, and then I, you know, again, suddenly had this father. And so when I did find out the truth, my first thought was, well, what the heck went on with my mom? Why didn't she tell me about my biological father? And so I had a lot of anger towards that, towards my mother. And I wasn't really sure how to confront her with that. And I'll never forget, this is actually in the play.

I was getting ready to call my mom with a lot of anger in my heart, just not knowing what to do with it or how to confront her. And I got a phone call from a guy that I knew, a guy by the name of Tommy, and I told him the story about what had happened about finding my biological father and that he was black. And the first thing Tommy said to me was, Oh, I always knew you were black. And I was like, what? What?

Like how did you know that? Like why didn't you say something to me? Why didn't somebody say, you know? I mean and then he said I said well, I've got all this anger towards my mother and I don't know what to do with And he says no no, no you have an opportunity To absolve your mother of her shame. She has held this shame your entire life She was given it by her parents Armenian immigrants who came to this country from Armenia from a war-torn

Michael Fosberg (13:50.93)
slaughtered country by the Turkish Ottoman Empire. They foisted this guilt and the shame on your mom and she's held onto it your entire life and you now have an opportunity to help her let it go, to help her release her shame and guilt. And it was one of the most beautiful things I'd ever heard. And he was right. And so of course, I did then hang up the phone with him.

and had this context to call my mother. He helped me understand what she had gone through, how difficult it was for her. She had been ostracized by her family. She had been, they had rejected her, and then they took her back in when they saw that my skin was white and that I could pass as white.

and they took her back in and they raised me and no one said anything. No one said to me or to anyone that Michael had a black father.

And the pressure that she was under and the shame that she held for that, that was the thing that Tommy helped me understand. And so then I was able to forgive my mother. She was just trying to do the best that she could do with what she was given. And so today I have a really strong and wonderful relationship with my mother because of that.

Sue (15:21.949)
Mm-hmm. Wow. What another just twist in this tale, right? And for you to have, because not knowing and she may not have been able to convey that to you in the way this other person could just kind of be the outsider letting you know, hey, this is what happened. So that allows you to kind of just transcend all of what could have been not so good or not so healthy.

Michael Fosberg (15:52.042)
Yeah, you know, when I confronted my mom about it in more detail later, I mean, one of the things she said to me was like, you know, she was under such pressure.

by her parents, her Armenian parents. And this is something that many immigrant families struggle with. There's still to this day, there's still a strong component in immigrant families to marry one of your own. I mean, parents want their child to marry one of their own. And so whether you're Armenian or Greek or...

I don't know, from Japan or wherever you might be, there's a strong component to marry one of your own. So that was true of my mom's family as well. And so she had that pressure. And then she said she went to see a psychologist to try to determine like, when does she tell her son that he has a black father? And...

They both agreed that probably later in life would probably be better, because what would I comprehend as a four-year-old? How would I make sense of that? And at what age would I make sense of it? Five, six, seven, eight, you know? And as the years kept piling on, the secret kept being buried deeper and deeper, and it became much more difficult for my mom then to...

unpack those layers of secrecy and to come out with the truth. And so she just kept piling it on and that secret just kept getting buried deeper and deeper.

Sue (17:23.908)
And now your parents were they educators? Is that correct?

Michael Fosberg (17:29.866)
Yeah, my mom was a French teacher for many, many years. She taught high school French. My stepfather was not, he was an engineer. My biological father worked for a Ford motor company as a purchasing agent, but his father, my black grandfather, the science and engineering departments at Norfolk State University is named after him.

So they were educated in my family, yeah.

Sue (18:02.189)
Wow. Well, and then I think also, you know, I love this component of the psychologist, where I think so many people would disagree with that, with not understanding, like, oh, why would you keep that from them? Why would you not? But like you say, at that age, and then having this white father raising you, right, there'd be a part of some confusion there with your identity, where you'd be kind of yearning to understand that or have that

going to necessarily get that. So I could see where that could be detrimental at that young age.

Michael Fosberg (18:39.934)
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't I don't know who your listeners are. But I mean, think about it, like, I'm four years old. And my mom has taken and I have no, I have no conscious memory of that age. But but I'm four years old and your and your mother takes you from one environment to another. We moved in with my grandparents. We live with my grandpa. I remember I do remember living with my grandparents.

and being raised by my mom and my grandparents. And then I actually have this sort of faint memory of my mom connecting with the man who would become my stepfather. And I don't, I mean, what would I have understood about, first of all, about bringing a new father into my life, because I don't remember my biological father.

And then also what would I have understood about race at four or five or six? You know, it's, I mean, certainly I'm not suggesting that there aren't some kids at that age who do not have comprehension of that. But for me, I really, and for my family anyway, there wasn't any structure for me to understand what that was. You know, one of the things that took place when my mom,

decided to leave my biological father. So we were, again, we were living in Boston. We were living in the projects, kind of. We were living in a very, very poor neighborhood in subsidized housing in Boston, in Roxbury. And my mom's mother came out to visit us while my biological father was away at work.

and she saw that we were living in poverty, and she saw that I had light skin, and she begged my mother to bring me back to live with them in Waukegan. Now, again, my mom was, we were living in...

Michael Fosberg (20:45.186)
in the project we were living with no money. My mom was scared out of her mind. She didn't know where the next meal was coming from. She didn't have any friends around her because she was with a black man. And at that time, there wasn't a biracial community. There was no biracial community. In 1957, there were, like, we didn't talk about biracial individuals. You were either black or you were white. That still exists somewhat to today.

I mean, look at Barack Obama. I mean, he's a biracial individual, but everybody sees him as our first black president. But he's biracial. So there wasn't a biracial community that we could like reach out to and say, hey, my son's biracial. Who can give me some guidance on how to help him lead his life? So when we left my father, my mom wrote my father a letter, which my father kept and gave to me, which basically in the letter,

Sue (21:18.702)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Fosberg (21:40.87)
A heart-wrenching letter. My mom admits that she couldn't raise me to be black. She didn't know how to do it Because I had this again Listeners, I have very light skin for most people seeing me on the street. You would think I was white I pass Um, or do I you know, that's the whole question. What does it mean passing and all that anyway, so

This was a very difficult thing for my mom. She wrote this in a letter. She took me, left my father, went to live with my grandparents. And then the rest, as I mentioned, is history. That I don't have any, I didn't have any connection with my Black family, with my Black roots, until I discovered my father again.

Sue (22:27.253)
Mm hmm. And now, Michael, let me ask you. So there also has to be a component with your mother at that time, knowing, you know, that there were no resources in terms of a biracial community or somewhere where you could connect, but also knowing how prevalent racism was still, you know, at that time. And probably in some way, right?

Michael Fosberg (22:50.006)
Yeah.

Sue (22:57.465)
thinking, I don't know, just affirm this for me, as a mother to protect you, like, hey, he can pass this white, let him pass this white, let's maybe not bring this up, so he isn't discriminated against.

Michael Fosberg (23:09.534)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that was absolutely a part of her equation when she decided to take me.

I mean, she was very conscious of racism around her. Again, we were living in Boston. Boston, one of the most racially divisive cities, maybe even still a very racially divisive. Roxbury, a very, very poor neighborhood, black neighborhood. So she was very, very conscious of this. And so yeah, it was a conscious decision to, yeah, oh, my son could pass as white. He would have a better life. All of that was a part of the equation for her, absolutely.

Sue (23:46.453)
Mm hmm. And you know, I'm sure there would be backlash from the other side. And I hate to end. This is where the whole where you come in, right, to help us under better understand, because, you know, there is so much divisiveness. And we know what's just happened recently politically, where, you know, I'm always kind of torn, like, OK, was that a good thing? And then, you know, I read and hear and have conversations with white friends and black friends and even, you know, mixed friends who I that I have.

It's like, okay, was that a good thing to have somebody so divisive in power? It was and it wasn't, like that's how I feel. I'm torn about that, right? Where it's like, okay, yeah, now we're having the dialogue more, but all of the closet racists came out. And for me as a minority woman, it's like, oh my God, you never realize there were so many racists. Like I...

Michael Fosberg (24:41.976)
Yeah.

Sue (24:43.277)
You know, I know minority men get it worse, but as a female, you know, I've had my fair share of racism, but I think I, you know, was lucky on so many fronts. But talk to us about this.

Michael Fosberg (24:58.914)
Yeah, I get asked a lot about this. I mean, this is obviously, you know, the time that we're living in and what you just mentioned about the former leader of our country. I can barely say it without laughing. It's not funny, though. I think, well, it's not funny for many reasons. One of them being that he's trying to become the future leader again. So that's frightening.

Personally, I guess I would say, I don't think it was a good thing at all. Yes, it showed us a lot about the racism that has been, shall we say, hidden underneath the layers of earth or whatever of our society. But I think for me, what I've seen,

not just the racism that's come out and anti-Semitism and Homophobia and you know, we could go But I also feel that it has stirred up Anger which is misplaced And the way the reason I say that is because the work that I do by bringing my story telling it

in the form that I tell in the form of a one-man show and then facilitating conversations afterwards, one of the things that I learned along the way, and I think it's one of the things that is probably the biggest focus of my work is that it's a thing that I learned about a theory called intergroup contact theory.

Intergroup contact theory is the proven theory that by sharing our personal stories across majority and minority populations we can break down the prejudices that exist between us by discovering that we have more in common than we have different and That's a fact. It's a fact that we have more in common than we have different and yet We are allowing the differences to play an unequal weight

Michael Fosberg (27:11.858)
in the way that we respond and connect with one or don't connect with one another. And so this anger that I'm speaking of is very, very misplaced because we're angry about difference when we should be curious about commonalities. You know, I had a, I have a podcast as well and it's about...

I interview people from all different fields and disciplines about how they go about creating inclusive environments in their worlds. And one of the guests most recently quoted something from Ted Lasso, which was such a delightful series on Apple TV. And the quote was about being curious, not judgmental.

Why aren't we curious? Why do we jump to being judgmental first? And so I'm really trying to focus, again, the major focus of my work, on finding and embracing those commonalities, discovering, I should say, discovering those commonalities, and then embracing the differences. And so...

My worry, to get back to your question about where we're at in society and all of that, my worry is that there is a faction of our country that's been so consumed by anger that they haven't bothered to notice that we have more in common than different. And if we took the time to let our anger subside,

and discover those commonalities and embrace the differences, we'd be in a lot better shape.

Sue (29:03.977)
Mm hmm. Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's so beautiful. So powerful. I wish everyone could just get that and see that. Right. But that's a whole other uphill battle. So now talk to us, you know, for you having this insight in your thirties and then this whole other identity. What was the biggest insight for you? Like, what has this meant for you?

personally.

Michael Fosberg (29:36.094)
For me personally, I guess I would say it has two things. One, it has made my life so much richer. I mean, I have this incredibly rich life with all of these people from a wide variety of spaces and experiences, black and white. And the other thing it's done for me is it has...

Michael Fosberg (30:05.182)
it has really helped me understand who I am. Like I, I guess I'll say it's in, I published a memoir in 2011, it's called Incognito, An American Odyssey of Race and Self-Discovery. And listeners can pick up a copy either at the website, incognitotheplay.com, or they can go to Amazon. And one of the things I explore in the, in the memoir,

is this idea of identity. And we touched on a little bit before we started the podcast. Actually, you were asking me if I had any titles. And I don't have any titles. It's just Michael Fosberg. But I'm not a doctor or a lawyer or a PhD or anything like that. And one of the things I think, and those are wonderful things, wonderful titles, wonderful accomplishments. But oftentimes, sometimes those titles create a bias.

Sue (30:37.381)
Hehehe

Michael Fosberg (30:59.134)
before we get to know the person. So, you know, if I say I'm a doctor, what kind of things come into your mind? Oh, that person's a doctor, so they're, I don't know, what, well-educated or they're elite or whatever, you know, and for many of us, it's unconscious. We don't even think about, it just comes into our mind and we're not even really conscious of how that plays out in the way that we perceive people. So anyway, in the,

memoir, I explore this idea of identity and, you know, so what am I? I question the audience at the end of my play about, well, what box should I check off now? What race am I? How do you see me now that I've given you this story and made this discovery? And it will be different for everybody. Not everybody's going to say, oh, Michael's biracial. Some may say, well, Michael's white. Some may say Michael's black.

Everybody has a different perception of identity and everybody has a different perception of their own identities And we come to it in our own unique ways the way that you come to your identity is unique for you Even in your immediate family your mother your father you perhaps you have siblings Yes, there are probably things that you all share but there's also things that make you each unique Each have this different identity and to some degree

That is a little bit fluid throughout the course of your life. You know, like you...

I don't know, you graduate from college and you see yourself as a college graduate. You go into a particular field and you see yourself, again, as we talk about, as a doctor or a lawyer or whatever it might be, you perhaps get married and then you see yourself as a husband or a wife. And then you have kids, now you see yourself as a parent. Your kids have kids, now you see yourself as a grandparent. And so it's constantly evolving the way in which we see ourselves. But what's interesting about this is the way that we see ourselves

Michael Fosberg (33:00.826)
is quite often not the way that other people see us. And yet, it's my identity. It's not yours, it's mine. And so I should also have the responsibility of sharing that with everyone and letting people know how I see myself. And we don't often do that.

Sue (33:22.221)
Wow, that is so prolific really. And we don't often do that. Now, let me ask you, Michael, so as someone with this mixed race identity, you've got these two worlds here that you're bringing to the table and this deeper insight, what do people, like what do you want people to be?

Michael Fosberg (33:40.011)
Yes.

Sue (33:51.097)
better understand about race or about inclusion, about diversity? What is the biggest missing component?

Michael Fosberg (34:03.774)
Yes, well, I've talked about a couple of them here, again, about the commonalities. We have more in common than we have different, and the idea that our identities are somewhat fluid, and there are identities, and yet we need to share more of that with other people.

But I guess I have a set of tools that I use when I do presentations and I leave audiences with actual actionable tools that they can use. And I guess one of two things that stick out, I mean, some of these are things I've said before in this conversation or, you know, I talk about the idea of, you know, getting comfortable being uncomfortable.

When we're having a conversation about race, it's most often it can be a very uncomfortable conversation. Many of us have never had a conversation about race. And so we need to get comfortable being uncomfortable. But one of the things I think is important for people to remember, there will be people who will listen to this podcast and they may think...

Who the hell is that guy? What the hell? What right does he have to talk about race? He didn't grow up black or whatever it might be they may disagree with something I've said earlier or whatever the point that I want to make here is that There isn't one way To go about having a conversation about race and identity

My God, if there was one way to do it, we'd all be doing it. That would make it a lot easier, right? If it was a formula, A plus B equals C, we'd all say, oh, I know how to do this. But it's not math, it's not chemistry, it's not science. It's messy. And every one of us comes to the table with a different experience. There will be people...

Michael Fosberg (35:50.206)
Again, who may walk away from this podcast thinking now that was a waste of my time That guy's a nut bag or whatever and there will be others who will think Wow, there were some insightful things there and I want to think more about that because everybody has a different experience with race with identity and That's what makes it messy and uncomfortable and I guess I can't emphasize that enough that

When we come to the table to have the conversation, don't get so caught up in your own belief system. Allow yourself to be an open container, to listen to someone else's experience. Look, there are no monoliths here. There's not one black experience. There's not one white experience. There's not one gay experience. There's not one disabled experience. There are many different experiences within those cultures.

And we need to recognize that so that we can have a bigger, broader conversation.

Sue (36:52.137)
Mm hmm. Oh, I love that. That is so powerful. And I think also, you know, like you said earlier, this idea of there's no right or wrong way, just speaking to what you're saying, you know, no right or wrong way to have this conversation or no one way. There's also no right or wrong way to be really right, like where in some circles, you may be not black enough and other circles, you're not white enough and

You know, I so much of what you say resonates for me, Michael, because I've been in those scenarios where, oh, because I, you know, grew up in a very white place, I kind of gravitated towards the black kids, you know, all of my girlfriends growing up were black because I had been discriminated against. And then I moved and went to a different place where everyone was white and it was okay for they felt maybe they could say certain things about black people because I wasn't black.

but they didn't get that I still wasn't white. And I'm kind of in the middle here, right? And you've probably experienced that yourself, where you hear white people saying racist things about black people and then black people maybe not embracing you because you're not black enough and that whole thing.

Michael Fosberg (38:01.27)
Yes.

Michael Fosberg (38:08.37)
Yes, absolutely. I advocate for everyone. Silence gives consent. So if you hear something or see something that is racist or homophobic or you know, whatever it might be, speak up.

speak up because silence, if you're silent, you are giving that person consent, you're consenting to whatever that person is saying or doing. And so we need to speak up. That's why we continue to have these things happen around us. And I think it's important to remember that you can speak up from a place of respect. Like, I know for me,

My natural inclination is when I hear something that's racist or vile or whatever it might be, my natural inclination is it makes me really angry. It stirs something up in me and my first impulse is to come out and really forcefully say something, but perhaps the better approach would be to say something like, you know what you just said just really makes me uncomfortable.

um to be a little bit more respectful so that we can have a conversation. I mean one of the tools that I also advocate for is we can disagree so long as we're not disagreeable.

Sue (39:18.565)
Mm-hmm.

Michael Fosberg (39:20.8)
Yeah.

Sue (39:22.449)
Oh, I love that. Now, can you give us some practical guidance here? What is like an exercise or I mean, you just kind of shared something right there, but for us to be more inclusive, where does one start with that if they just have no clue?

Michael Fosberg (39:39.354)
I have a great test for people. It will require some mindfulness, some consciousness in order to do this. But I'm hoping that your listeners are hip to that and want to do that. But for a week, wherever you go for a week, think about the places that you go when you go to a place, whether it's the grocery store or the gym, or

um, I don't know, work or wherever, wherever you may go for a week, when you go somewhere, when you're at that place, consciously look around you and see everyone, take in everyone around you. How many people of color do you see? What kind of genders are there? Who's present in the room

Take note of that. And then at the end of the week, and you may have to write it down, like I went to the gym and I was the only person of color there, or I was the only white person there, or whatever it might be, or I went to the grocery store and I just saw women at the grocery store. Where are the men? You know, whatever it might be.

You might have to make note of that. But then at the end of the week, sort of look back on all of that and see the spaces that we walk into that we aren't real conscious about. You know, like we just go to the store and we don't even really even think about the people around us. We're going to shop for groceries. We don't who cares who's there. And I'm not suggesting that you need to care who's there, but you need to be aware of who's there, of who has privileges in different places.

And so it's sort of a test that I put out. I think for a week, take note of the spaces that you're in and who's in those spaces.

Sue (41:39.153)
Oh, I love that. I can imagine that would be so eye-opening for so many people. Because, you know, like you say, we're just, a lot of people are just not aware and not paying attention. And so often I think, you know, people are living, choosing places based on some of that criteria, right? They want to be in a country setting. They want to be in a...

you know, in all white setting. They wanna be in a place that's, you know, in the suburbs that has less crime or whatever it is, right? But a lot of times, I don't even know if people are always completely conscious of that. When they're making these decisions, it's almost just kind of embedded in how they are, how they were raised, how they see the world, what they gravitate towards unconsciously.

Michael Fosberg (42:33.954)
That's absolutely right. You're absolutely right. I mean, we, and again, I think it's important for us to recognize that if we find ourselves that we're only going to white spaces, then maybe we need to expand. Maybe we need to expand the spaces that we're entering. And if we're afraid to expand, we need to explore why. Why are we afraid to expand that? Why are we putting ourselves around people that are just like us?

Why aren't we opening ourselves up to a world that is much broader and much bigger? There's so much to learn from that. I think one of the greatest things people can do is travel internationally. You learn so much going to a foreign country. Oh my gosh, it is an education in itself. I love to travel and I travel quite a bit to places all over the world. And I learn so much when I go to a different culture.

Sue (43:33.665)
Wow. Okay. And now what advice do you have for the resistors and the haters and the, maybe not the haters, because hopefully they're not listening, but what guidance do you have for people? Just what advice do you offer to allow more equity in all of that? I know we've touched on this, but just kind of picking your brain a little more.

Michael Fosberg (44:03.626)
Yeah, well, again, I think it dovetailing on what I just said is you we I'm just gonna say you we because I need to do it too. We need to put ourselves in a position where we are constantly challenging ourselves if it's always the same if it's always too easy.

Michael Fosberg (44:26.75)
It's too monolithic. We're not learning from it. You know, I've also been a teacher myself. I've taught all different kinds of things from improv to acting classes to a variety of different things. And one of the things that I have said about being a teacher is I...

am always learning something in the classroom. And some people will go, well, what is that? How can, you're the teacher. Aren't you teaching things? How can you be learning things? I'm learning things from students, whether they're younger students or they're my age, whatever, I'm constantly learning something in the classroom. And when I stop learning something is when I need to stop teaching.

So I guess what I'm saying to listeners is keep learning. Keep putting yourself in a position to learn something. Again, whether it's international travel or it's going to all these different places over the course of the week and seeing who you're around, who you consciously chose to be around, there's always something to learn and to make us more aware and mindful of the spaces in which we enter. And so keep learning is what I would encourage people to do.

Sue (45:39.927)
Oh, I love that. And now, so Michael, tell us what, so you're still doing the play. Are you still doing the play?

Michael Fosberg (45:47.886)
Oh yeah, I just came back from Seattle last week. I was out at the, in Everett, Washington. There's an enormous bowing plant there with 35,000 people. It's one of the largest manufacturing plants in the world. And I have had the delight and honor to present the show out there every year for the past.

my gosh, I've been doing it for maybe 10 years now. They always have me out, it's great. I did two shows last Thursday, it was fantastic. They have a little theater in the middle of this manufacturing plant. They make these ginormous airplanes and stuff. It was great, it was a blast.

Sue (46:25.614)
That's awesome. And then what about any other books or what other projects are you working on? Anything upcoming? Give us that update.

Michael Fosberg (46:33.186)
Oh, as I mentioned, I have a podcast it's called incognito the podcast all That title incognito the podcast you can get it wherever your podcast whatever platform you're on. I have two books the memoir which is incognito an American Odyssey of race and self-discovery and the second book is Ironically titled nobody wants to talk about it

Race identity and the difficulties in forging meaningful conversations and those books you can get at the website incognito The play.com or you can get them. Um, I think they're both available at amazon as well

Sue (47:11.797)
Wow. Oh my God. I love it. You've this has been such a great conversation. And I just I love the work you're doing. I think it's so important, so necessary. And I know your people are awakening in the work you're doing there. You're leaving them with something that hadn't occurred before. So I think that's amazing. So

Michael Fosberg (47:32.322)
Thank you.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Sue (47:40.353)
Yeah, I mean, I just first and foremost, just want to thank you so much for your time today and all of your amazing insights. I'm just so honored to have had this time with you.

Michael Fosberg (47:51.358)
It was a real pleasure, Sue. I really, really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you for having me on.

Sue (47:57.185)
Oh, you were awesome. And now you've already said so many amazing things, but what is just that one closing message you'd like to leave us with?

Michael Fosberg (48:06.066)
Again, I'm gonna repeat myself. Silence gives consent. Speak up when you hear something or see something that is racist or inappropriate or homophobic or whatever it might be. Speak up in a respectful manner and let people know that it's not okay.

Sue (48:28.033)
That is such a powerful closing message. You've been so wonderful. Thank you so much.

Michael Fosberg (48:33.314)
Thanks a lot. Have a great day.

Sue (48:36.069)
Thank you.