Blossom Your Awesome Seeing Eye To Eye With Debra Woog

Blossom Your Awesome Seeing Eye To Eye With Debra Woog

Debra A. Woog is a Crisis Navigation Partner™ a term that she's coined with more than 
30 years of + years of experience as a leadership researcher, executive and advisor. 

Debra provides highly competent women with expertise, structure and empathy so that they can process difficult situations, connect with necessary resources, communicate effectively, and lead with a clear mind and a solid strategy.

On this episode Debra shares powerful ways to navigate crisis in work and business and how to get people to see eye to eye. 

We discuss - 

• significant points of agreement
• the power of listening
• building the other person up and letting them know what you do appreciate about their point of view 

KEY TAKEAWAY - Crisis and disagreements are an inevitable part of life, but with a few powerful tools at your disposal you can navigate crisis powerfully and effectively finding common ground and resolution with most anyone.

To learn more about Debra click here .

To see more of my work check me out at my website

Where I write and cover mindfulness and other things to help you Blossom Your Awesome.

Or checkout my other site where I right about arts and culture, wellness, essays and op-eds.

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Transcript

Sue (00:01.158)
Hi there, today on the show, we have got Debra Woog here with us. I am so honored and delighted to have you here. Welcome to the show. 

Debra (00:09.247)
Thank you, I'm delighted to be here.

Sue (00:11.658)
Oh, I am just so happy to have you here, Debra
, and get into the amazing work you do. You are a crisis navigation partner. Give us the backstory here, how and why you got into this line of work, and then we'll get into the specifics of what you do.

Debra (00:21.247)
Right.

Debra (00:30.183)
Well, I, let's see, I always, I studied psychology and I have an MBA and I've always been really interested in where psychology and business come together. And I had a business for, my business is now 23 years old, but for the first like 19 years or so, I did organizational change consulting and I worked with individuals as a leadership and career coach. And around 2019, I started feeling like something just,

was off, like I wasn't as excited about working, doing all the work that I was doing before. I didn't have the same passion about it. And I really went through a self-assessment process that I use with a lot of my clients about what is my brilliance, what are the aspects of my brilliance I most wanna be doing now going forward. And what I realized as part of this is that there had been this through line, this theme of the clients that I'd worked with that I was most engaged with.

intellectually and emotionally, they were ones who were going through various kinds of crises. And so I decided to refocus all my work there. And I created this concept of crisis navigation partner. I made it up and I created it based on what I love to do with my clients. So when someone's going through a personal, a professional or organizational crisis, and I can give you examples, and usually women leaders,

who feel like they're on their own for whatever reason, I wanna be there to walk through it with them and help them navigate through, find their way through strategically and to the best possible outcome given the circumstances. And so, sorry, I'm recovering from COVID, so I just don't wanna start coughing on you. So I do this by providing emotional support, making a strategy with them.

helping them prepare for any kind of difficult conversations that are coming up or difficult written communications that are stressful. I go with them sometimes if they want me to go with them to an important meeting or to court or to a hospital or wherever they need to go. Mostly I work virtually, but sometimes I go in person. And I do outsourced research projects because one of the hallmarks of a crisis is that there's lots more decisions to be made.

Debra (02:54.427)
in a short period of time than usual. And so sometimes people hand them to me and I do the research and I figure out what are their options for whatever they're facing.

Sue (03:05.194)
Wow, that is so amazing. Now let's start with some examples for context here.

Debra (03:12.595)
Sure. So, okay, examples of personal crises. Well, it's funny, it's a back story. When I was figuring out the right words for this, I made a list of crises that I had experience with professionally, personally and or professionally working with clients. And they all happened to start with the letter D. I thought of divorce, downsizing, dispute.

um, death, uh, what is another diagnosis, like mental health or physical health diagnosis for the client or someone that the client is taking care of if it's personal or someone who reports to the client or is on a leadership team with the client. So all those things kind of started with letter D and I started marketing that way.

And what I realized was very quickly a lot of people, because that was 2019, very quickly, a few months later, a lot of people were in a crisis that started with the letter P, pandemic. And that's not something I really thought about six months earlier. So the crises at that time, a lot of them were, I don't know how to lead and manage when all my people are working from home. What do I do differently? So that was an example. Or some people had crises of.

someone close to me is sick and now I'm the caregiver for them and I'm working from home and I'm trying to juggle all these things, how am I going to make it work? But more recently, my client issues have been less pandemic related and still personal and professional and organizational. So for example, right now I'm working with two sisters who own a business together and they've had a dispute.

difference of opinion and they need help coming back together. So I'm helping to mediate for them and get them back on the same page and make some adjustments to their business so they can move forward together and preserve their sister relationship as well as their business relationship because they've been in business together for almost three decades. Another recent client came to me as a vice president of marketing for a technology firm. Her partner had been diagnosed with glioblastoma.

Debra (05:35.135)
And she was trying to figure out how does she stay focused at work and then give him everything he needs and get through everything that they had to do while he was sick. He recently passed away, but I have supported her through all of that. So it could be legal. It could be a career crisis, an existential crisis. What do I do now? I just got laid off or I don't love my work anymore.

there's a range of examples.

Sue (06:07.518)
Wow. And now so many questions here. So first, I think, you know, giving us some guidance, that hypothetical scenario of two people in business together who don't see eye to eye or whether they're in business or colleagues or whatever, you know, some two who have to figure out a powerful way to work together, but don't see eye to eye. What's that first, you know, step? What's the advice there? Where do they start?

Debra (06:37.607)
In that example, and this is very recent for me, because I just started working with them early last week, but in that example, I started with having each of them share with me what they want now. And as they were talking about what they want now, they gave me the history of what had happened and what got them to where they are now. And so they have been speaking to each other for quite a while, and I've been...

doing some shuttle diplomacy between them. Soon we're gonna come back and the three of us are gonna start meeting, but we found significant points of agreement, what matters to both of them. And I've been trying to build on that and then get to the more contentious parts and work through those. So I'm hopeful that in another week or so, we're going to get to the resolution of what they've been struggling with for many, many months.

Sue (07:30.142)
I think this is so powerful here. It's kind of like, you know, I've read and heard the Dalai Lama say, like, when he goes into areas of conflict, the first thing you want to do is disarm the person by building them up, right? You're kind of like telling them all the reasons you love them, all the reasons they matter, all the reasons it's important. So this sounds like your guidance here, Deborah, could be applicable in any.

of conflict situation really, right? Where you start with the positive, like what we see, have in common or see eye to eye on.

Debra (08:06.055)
Yes, and I think for these sisters who are, you know, my age, they're in their 50s, I think they haven't felt seen by each other in a long time. And then they literally stopped seeing each other. So for me to hear their story and say, you know, I hear you and I see what you did there, and that took a lot of courage, and that must have been hard. I can see for both of them, just feeling heard and seen is powerful in and of itself, and enables them to put down.

some of the weapons that they've been carrying around, where the Dalai Lama might be meeting people with more physical weapons. In this case, the weapons are more like defense mechanisms, anger, resentment, holding on really tightly to stories from that thing that happened 13 years ago and I'm still mad. The more people feel seen and heard and understood and reconnected to their vision of what they really want, the easier it is to...

settle in and start becoming more strategic about how to get from here to there and to realize maybe holding on to this little piece isn't really serving me well when my choice is to say no to what she wants or lose my relationship.

Sue (09:23.09)
And now what about, you know, I'm sure there's times, cause here we're talking about two people who are wanting to find resolution, but sometimes there's gotta be those times when people are just stubborn, there's personality conflict. And it's, can you still find a powerful way with those two coming together?

Debra (09:45.563)
I certainly try. I am not a therapist, I am not an attorney, but I have a lot of skills that I've developed through life experience and professional training. And I try to bring people together and to help them figure out what do they have in common and why does this relationship matter to them if it does. I haven't yet had the experience where a pair of people has come to me and said, we want your help. And I've started helping them. And then at the end they were like,

You know what, this relationship doesn't really matter. I'm not gonna work on this anymore, I'm out. Not gonna happen, but it hasn't yet. But most often I work with one person in a crisis at a time, or I work with that person and her team where they're all kind of in the crisis together, but the crisis isn't their actual relationship. So.

Sue (10:40.562)
I see. Okay, so Deborah, I was gonna mention there's a lot of kind of background noise. This Riverside, I'm having a love-hate thing with Riverside, it picks up everything. So I think any of like the tapping and stuff is coming in like really loud or even just like movement. I know it's so crazy and I'm so sorry to even. I'm sorry. Okay. Like movement and stuff, it's so crazy. You'll hear, cause I'm gonna, you know, when we air it.

Debra (10:59.115)
I'll try to be still. I don't think I am tapping. But maybe I'm touching my gut.

Sue (11:08.982)
you'll be able, but even like, and I'm literally like, I don't even move my chair. And that's, and I'm so sorry to even ask you this, but it's just, it's so crazy how the noise just, it picks up like every little thing. And I'm just like, oh my God, I hate even having to say that. But anyway, okay. Okay. Oh, okay. That's great.

Debra (11:17.179)
I'm so trapped in this jail.

Debra (11:28.587)
little bit so I'm not touching my desk. Okay. That'll help.

Sue (11:33.15)
Yeah, because literally even when I, because I used to always talk with my hands and I'd be like pounding my fists. And then I realized when I can't do that during these like amazing conversations, because they can hear me doing that. Okay, anyway, so let me hit that there, Marker. Okay, so Deborah, give us some insight here into, you know, what about like in a team situation when there's

conflict, where would a supervisor or superior start when they're dealing with two or three or more people who aren't able to work together powerfully and constructively? What's some guidance there for that?

Debra (12:20.943)
I always recommend starting as broad as possible. So I know I'm moving again, sorry. So, but hopefully it's not making noise, but starting as broad as possible with the top line. Like what is the biggest thing we're trying to accomplish here? We're trying to make money by doing good. We're trying to feed people who don't have enough food. We're trying to sell as many sneakers as we can. What is the very big picture purpose? We're trying to create shareholder value. We're trying to have fun at work.

Start with the very big reasons that we're here together before you get into the details of what the dispute is or the difference of opinion is. And then from there, going down, I think it really helps to understand what each individual's needs are and what their values are, and try to find ways to help them stay aligned with their values.

and try to help them help find ways that you can work with the other person to get their need met or work with them to get their need met from some outside source because we all have needs but we can't all fulfill all of each other's needs right so if there's a dynamic between you and me and there's an important need that I have and it's not being met here if I can get it met somewhere else fill out that bucket

then I'm gonna be able to show up in more of my brilliance when I'm with you, even if you are not the person meeting the need.

Sue (13:59.058)
Wow, that is so powerful. And, you know, I find that so often, and you know this, we assume people know what we need without actually conveying what we need.

Debra (14:15.627)
And also, some of us, I have one mother in particular like this, shout out mom if you're hearing this, she really wants to believe she does not have any needs. I'm good, whatever, I'm cool, you know, I'm fine, I don't need anything here. We all have needs and when my needs aren't met or yours or hers or anyone, it's hard to be our highest selves. So it's-

when we can understand our own needs and then set up systems to get them met regularly, somewhere, we're gonna show up as our highest selves more often in all the different environments we go to, even if the environment itself is not meeting our needs.

Sue (14:57.346)
Wow, I love that. That is so powerful, such great guidance there. Now talk to us. I know one of the things you help people find structure and empathy, which I think is gravely lacking far too often, especially in like a work setting or situation, right? We don't really consider that as an essential factor.

Debra (15:19.487)
Hmm. Where do I get that empathy? What do you mean? What do I have to do? I mean, empathy, for me, I have too much empathy, probably. You know, I don't know if you use the Strengths Finder tool at all, the Gallup Strengths Finder tool. It's really good. It's available online. But my biggest strength is empathy. And that is an asset. But it's also a disadvantage because

Sometimes I'm so good at putting myself in other people's shoes that I forget to stand in my own shoes. But some people are really great at standing in their own shoes and not so good at imagining what it's like to be in the other person's. And so that's where having a third party can come in handy and actually asking the person to do that and helping them understand what it looks like from the other shoes.

Sue (16:12.326)
Mm-hmm. So it's, and I think this is so amazing for you to come in this way and be that unbiased person there in the middle of a conflict. And like you say, you're helping them, you're conveying what the other person just can't because of whatever personal dynamics and things that get in the way of resolving conflict powerfully.

Debra (16:37.051)
Mm-hmm.

Sue (16:38.998)
Wow, that's beautiful. I love that, Deborah. Now, talk to us about effective communication. Can you give us some tips, like language and things we should not be saying and using versus like, do this, but don't do this?

Debra (16:52.687)
Oh my gosh.

Debra (16:56.523)
How many hours do you have? I have opinions about this. Okay, two things came to my mind. One is in the area of apology. Apologies can be really important. There's different apology styles. Never say to someone, I'm sorry you feel that way. Never apologize to someone for their feelings. You can't do that. You can only apologize to someone for your own actions.

Sue (16:58.41)
I'm sorry.

Debra (17:26.219)
even if you didn't intend the consequence. So if I really hurt your feelings by showing up to your podcast interview late, I'm just making this up, and I got there and you said, Deborah, you know, you're really late and I needed you to be here sooner. If I say, sorry, you feel that way, that is not helping. And of course I didn't mean to be late. And of course I probably have in my mind a whole bunch of stories of why

It was unavoidable that I was late. Even if I didn't mean to be late and I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, I didn't mean to throw the rest of your day off schedule with my tardiness, I can say I'm sorry that I was late. I didn't mean to be, but I can see it really affected you and it threw off your day. And I hear what you're saying about now you're really stressed for how the day is gonna go on, because I was late. And I apologize for that. I will try not to be late again for future meetings.

That's really different than, I'm sorry, you feel that way. So that's a pet peeve phrase for me, what anybody says to anybody, even if it's on television. I'm sorry, you feel that way. Okay, so that's one tip. Another thing is how to communicate effectively with someone who's going through a really hard time. There's a idea of picture.

a bunch of concentric circles. Am I making noise now? Cause I'm tapping on my computer. Okay, trying not to make any noise. But when someone is going through something really difficult, picture that they're the one in the center of all the concentric circles. So the one right in the middle, I call person zero. So let's say you're in a hospital bed because you're really sick. You're person zero.

Then one ring out from you, there's people who are supporting you. So the person who's closest to you and really cares about you getting better and feels responsible for navigating figuring out, that's what I call the point person. So for example, when my son was 10 years old and he was diagnosed with type one diabetes and we were at the hospital, he was the person zero, I was the point person as his mom and the one who needed to figure out, oh my gosh, what does this diagnosis mean and what do we do now?

Debra (19:51.847)
So maybe one ring out for me was somebody who's really close to my son in this example, but they're not right there on the ground with me. So maybe his grandmother. So just take this example. This is not, the diabetes is real, but this grandmother part, I'm just making up. So the idea about communication here is if the grandma is stressed, she cannot complain to the point person.

The idea here is you comfort in, complain out. So if she is feeling really, really stressed, or if I was feeling really, really stressed and I'd said to my 10 year old son, this is freaking me out. I don't know if you're gonna be okay. I'm afraid you're gonna die. Like, he can't handle that. He's the person zero. He's in the middle. So I need to say to my mom, I'm really worried about him. I need to comfort out. I need to seek comfort outside.

and to outer rings further away. So it's making sense. It's important to say you comfort in the circles, complain out of the circles. So if you are complaining to someone, you're the point person for, or you're even a few rings away, that is inappropriate and unfair way to tax them.

Sue (20:53.942)
This is...

Debra (21:18.603)
So if my mom is telling me, oh, I feel so terrible because I'm so far away and I can't help you right now and I'm really worried and I was up all night, oh my gosh, I have not been sleeping for days, no. She should go tell her sister. She should go tell her best friend. She should go tell somebody who doesn't even know my son. You know, one or more rings away from the very bullseye of the circle. That is my other communication tip. Comfort in, complain out.

when someone's in crisis or when you're going through crisis. Because the truth is that the crisis, even if you're not the person zero, it affects and ripples through to people in the outer rings. You know, when my 10-year-old son was in the hospital, he didn't have a boss to worry about, but let's say he was in 10 and he was an adult and he had a boss, it was gonna affect his boss. Now my son's not showing up for work because he's in the hospital for five days and the boss is probably stressed because he has to figure out, how do I replace this guy on the ship?

He needs to complain to somebody else, not to the one lying in the hospital bed at that time.

Sue (22:21.01)
Mm hmm. Wow. I love this. This is so powerful. And I think, um, I am not familiar with this and haven't heard. I don't think we're having talking about it enough. You know, this idea of where and this is kind of comes back to the empathy piece, right, where you got to have be able to exercise empathy for other people and not make it about you.

Debra (22:45.735)
Right. Not everything is about you. My best friend from high school used to have a dog, and he was a psychologist. Still one of my best friends. And but at the time, it was a long time ago, he had a dog named Zoe. And Zoe would come in the room, and Ken would always say, not everything's about you, Zoe. It always kind of cracked me up. Because that phrase still rings in my head sometimes. Not everything is about you, Zoe. Yes, Zoe wanted attention right at that moment. Yeah, Zoe was hungry right then. But maybe something else was going on, and she could just wait a second.

So we have to remember not everything is about us all the time and it can feel like it is, but sometimes it, and sometimes it even is. It does affect me that my child was just diagnosed with something and that's fair. And I do have needs that need to be met, but I can't try to get him to meet the needs. Not in that moment, maybe it's the person zero.

Sue (23:35.747)
Wow. Oh, I love that Deborah. That is so powerful. Now give us some other tips on conflict resolution. Like what is kind of, I mean, I know probably, and I've heard and read a lot about this, not good to kind of go in, you know, you're helping people strategize. So obviously not to come good to come in hot and like bothered, right? You don't want to be confronting the problem head on.

Debra (23:56.075)
Thank you.

Debra (24:03.307)
Right? I mean, sometimes that's appropriate. We want to be direct. Sometimes that's appropriate. But if you have two people who are both really fired up, it might be more fruitful to help each of the people calm down a little bit and be more centered and until before they go in and they face the conflict head on. In actual battle with armies,

You want your soldiers all riled up and mad before they go attack. But in business, we do not want that with our soldiers. We want people to be in their brilliance before they tackle the hardest things. The value of stopping and breathing first before you react is huge, the simplest things. And there's things like box.

breathing, which comes from the, I think from the Marines or the Navy Seals or something like that. Like the fastest way to calm yourself down in any situation is to do box breathing. Have you heard of this before? Yeah. You know, where you, you inhale for four seconds slowly, you hold your breath for four seconds, you exhale for the full four seconds, and then you hold empty for four seconds. And that's the box ideas that you just go up.

Sue (25:12.822)
we have, yes.

Debra (25:28.991)
Hold, down, and across. And just repeating that for even four or five breaths can really calm the central nervous system down. And when you're breathing more, you're much more likely to be effective in your communication and your thinking.

Sue (25:50.174)
Yes, that is powerful guidance there. Now, let me ask you, what about, you know, if you're in personal conflict with somebody and is it a good idea if you're not able to convey because not everyone's going to have access to somebody like you, right, they may not be able to afford it, it might be a young person who needs to resolve something with a sibling or friend or whatever. Is it advisable to

right? If you feel like you can't communicate, are you good with that? Or what are your thoughts on that? Like should they, if they feel like the person's not going to be receptive to their words or they don't know how to say it with words, what are your thoughts on, Hey, I got to send them an email or a message.

Debra (26:38.091)
I feel like I'm much better with real situations than the hypotheticals because I want to be able to ask questions in the hypothetical and I know you don't have time to make the whole thing up, but I can tell you this. I believe that writing is a really useful organizing tool for the brain and if you have strong feelings and you have a lot you want to get out, if you can write it, handwrite it or type it or speak it even into you know, dictate it to something and then go back and

you're going to be so much more prepared to go from there to communicate whether you decide to put it in writing or you decide to speak what you've now organized. So I use writing as a tool quite a lot for myself. And in fact, for the Two Sisters story, I've been writing a lot this week, even though I'm not the person in conflict, but I'm...

pulling together and synthesizing. And we started up here and now we're narrowing down into the most contentious issue to make sure that I am clearly mapping out for myself what I understand what the parallels are and what the differences are and where the points of pain are and where the opportunities for amends are. Writing helps me organize. I make a lot of different kinds of lists and I edit the lists and I reorganize the lists.

and then I'm much better prepared to show up and be useful out loud.

Sue (28:07.85)
Mm-hmm. Oh, that's great. I love that. Now, tell us, what about, is there something when you want to resolve conflict, something that you always have to do? Like, is there one thing or one thing like that's just the best, greatest thing to make sure you always include or say?

Debra (28:08.735)
So in my framework.

Debra (28:30.768)
I hear you.

let the other person know that you do hear their points, even if you disagree with them, to be able to say, you know, back to our little story that I made up about being late for the podcast, going back to say, I hear you and I can see, you know, how stressed and upset you are. And although I don't agree with how you came to the conclusion that you're at right now,

I hear what you're saying. I see the pain that you're feeling, and I care about our relationship. I don't want you to be in this pain. Let's set aside how we're going to handle future podcast scheduling and come back. Now just focus on what else do you wanna tell me about how you're feeling? I just can't, I know it maybe sounds kinda hokey, but I can't over emphasize the value of people listening.

to each other and letting each other know that they're being heard and understood, even if they're not agreed with.

Sue (29:41.142)
And now I would imagine this component right here being so key is probably one of the biggest contributors to like a breakdown of a potential resolution, right? When someone's not able to hear the other person or listen.

Debra (29:58.003)
Right. And they get so caught up sometimes in their own belief about what the other person's thinking or feeling that they're not even really paying attention to the other person saying, this is what I'm thinking, this is what I'm feeling. I can be so in my head about what I imagine is going on with you, that even if you're telling me what's going on with you and I'm just spinning out, I'm not really taking it in.

I think a good tip off for all of us when we are so caught up in what we believe the other person thinks or feels or wants that we're not actually listening to or believing what they're saying they think or feel or want, we have some work to do on our end.

Sue (30:49.798)
Wow, that is so powerful. Deborah, now let me ask you, what about, I know you mentioned a tool earlier that you said is no longer available on the internet, I think, I can't remember. What were you talking about? I forget the name of it.

Debra (31:00.499)
What was I talking about? I was talking about Zoe who's no longer with us, the dog. It's not all about you, Zoe. And I use a tool a long time. Like I can't.

Sue (31:07.64)
Right.

there was some kind of tool that can help us. I can't remember, but what are some other resources? Are there some things that you can suggest that are good places like books or resources or other types of tools to kind of help people be more effective with communication conflict resolution?

Debra (31:30.203)
I mean, there's an infinite amount of content out there in the world on anything and everything. I teach a course about how to prepare for a difficult conversation, how to have a difficult conversation. And from that course, I created this kind of tip sheet, this one page tip sheet about tips for preparing for a difficult conversation. And I'm happy to share that with people. I can give you the link for it. And if anyone wants to download it, they're welcome to.

There's so much out there, though, and so much on video. I think that's one of the toughest things about being alive in the time that we're alive, that it's just impossible to feel fully informed. If we're paying attention, it's almost impossible to feel fully informed about everything that's going on, because we could be consuming content 24 7.

Sue (32:00.623)
Oh, I don't love that.

Debra (32:27.111)
and never actually doing anything, just reading about what's going on around us and still feel like it's not enough to still feel like we don't know enough.

Sue (32:33.21)
Right. Yeah, that's such a great point. Now, let me ask you, you know, with the work you've been doing in resolving conflict, what is that like? Like, what do you find to be just personally? How does that feel for you to be able to help facilitate resolution for people?

Debra (32:56.723)
Well, for me, it's really satisfying. It feels like I'm fulfilling my purpose when I'm able to do it well. I come from a group of people that prefer to just stuff all their feelings down and not find out what each other's feelings are because it's scary. That group of people is called my family. And so for me, I was always the weird one in the family that I'd wanna talk about it and ask questions and what are you gonna... Turns out that...

way of being that I have that wasn't really very popular, to be honest, growing up in my family unit, is really useful in the world. And it's not with everyone, obviously, but with the people who come to me for help. And it is very fulfilling to know that being in my own way of being, my own natural brilliance is of service. And I believe that every single person on the planet is brilliant.

Not everybody really knows how they're brilliant. And they love to help people figure out what makes them uniquely them and their brilliance so they can really embrace it and lean into it.

is this.

Sue (34:08.058)
Wow, I love that. That's so beautiful and so empowering. Now, I have to ask, and I get irked when people say things like people don't change or it's not possible because I'm just, I believe in infinite, like everything and anything is possible. So do you believe that maybe not all, but most

But hey, maybe all conflict can be resolved.

Debra (34:43.935)
I do believe it's possible for all conflicts to be resolved. There are so many things that get in the way sometimes, and sometimes they pile up so big that I wonder, I mean, not to be political, but I just even think about, you know, the war going on in the Middle East right now, and I feel so much for both sides, and I wonder, is it ever possible for this to end? And I honestly don't know.

I want it to be, I really want it to be. And for me, if I can help teach people better skills around having difficult conversations, and if I can model good conflict resolution, and if I can, any ways that I can help other people get more confident in solving their own conflicts, resolving their own conflicts, then I feel like each piece by piece has a rep...

I'm not saying that I myself I'm going to solve all the problems in the Middle East just by going around doing what I'm doing but the more that I can Be of service the more Everyone can be of service and then the more they're of service the more other people are it ripples out in a positive way

Sue (36:02.914)
Wow, yes it does. I just love that. So a couple of things. Well, first I'd like to ask you, Deborah, what is upcoming for you? Like, what are you working on? What's coming up next? Any books on the table? What's going on for you? What are you writing? Are you writing something? And what's down the pike for you?

Debra (36:17.956)
like what am I reading or what am I writing?

Debra (36:26.727)
It's funny that you asked me that question today because today I was just looking at, I have a, I'm kind of obsessed with Trello and I have a whole board that's called Connect to 2023 Priorities. You know, some of my business priorities and different lists on that Trello board. And there's a list at the very end of it all the way to the right that says Someday Maybe. And so I was looking at the Someday Maybe list and starting to think about what I want to do in 2024. And I had previously said,

to myself probably at the end of 2022, then in 2024, I think I'm going to start trying to write a book. Just something I've always wanted to do, but it's very scary. And then today I was thinking, you know, I could just change that little four to a five. Nobody would know, especially if I don't tell anyone on a podcast. So as actually I've been thinking about, is that something that I'm ready? Did I feel ready to take on? Is the challenge of.

Sue (37:12.198)
Oh.

Debra (37:26.163)
writing about all this, because there's so much that I've been collecting and so much that I want to share, and can I organize it in a way that's useful for other people? I would like to find out the next couple of years, and I would like to, after that, I would like to train and certify other people to be Crisis Navigation Partners and mentor them to go out in their own world, through their own businesses, through their own leadership.

to help other people navigate through crises. That's the dream for me.

Sue (37:57.514)
Wow. Oh my goodness. I love it, Debra. So I have to say, I mean, I do not believe in coincidences. So I think like the book is going to be in the works in 2024. There's I mean, you were just looking at the board and here I am asking you, right. And you strategize and organize stuff for other people. So I know you got a book in you and you had so many amazing insights and so much wisdom today.

Debra (38:10.219)
Thank you.

Sue (38:27.45)
First of all, I just want to thank you so much for everything. You really had so much practical guidance, tips, and I think takeaways for people. So thank you for your insight.

Debra (38:40.927)
Thank you. Thank you for hosting me. Thank you for putting your podcast out into the world and for all the learning and shining that you're doing to enable other people to learn. You're shining your brilliance. It's great to see.

Sue (38:55.53)
Wow, I love that. Thank you so much. I'm gonna be sure to have links to all of your stuff. And now in closing, you've already said so many amazing things, but if there was just one message, your hope for everybody, what is that closing message you wanna leave us with?

Debra (39:00.766)
Okay.

Debra (39:12.131)
As alone as you may feel, whoever you are, if you're feeling alone right now, you don't have to be alone. I agree with the US Surgeon General that loneliness is a big crisis in our country right now, and there's always places to turn. So I just want to encourage people to not assume that there's no way out of the loneliness and

take the scary steps to reach out to other people around them or organizations, because you don't have to do anything all by yourself. You can have support, whether that's me or through a nonprofit organization or through a community center of a different kind. You don't have to do it on your own. We're not meant to do things on our own entirely. I really believe that. We're meant to have support.

Sue (40:03.59)
Oh, I love that. That's such a powerful closing message. You've been so awesome. Thank you so much, Deborah. Thank you. Wow. So many amazing insights. I loved all.

Debra (40:11.103)
Thank you.