Trauma Informed Living: Reclaiming Wholeness

In this powerful episode, Lola Dada-Olley speaks with Neresia Osborne, therapist, mother, advocate and lifetime caregiver. This episode only scratches the surface in unlocking the depth of her personal account of navigating birth trauma, systemic racism, and rediscovery. This episode offers clear insights into how one could possibly recognize their own lane, redefine success on their own terms, and build resilience through authentic self-awareness. Because parts of her journey deal with detailed personal recollections of trauma, discretion is advised. 

Key topics:

• The impact of birth trauma and systemic racism on Black women’s health and mental well-being
• Learning to recognize and embrace one’s lane amidst societal expectations
• The role of hope multipliers and community support in healing and reimagining life
• How existentialism illuminates the path to self-awareness and wholeness
• Practical strategies for boundaries, self-care, and creating sacred spaces for Black families
• The importance of visibility and authentic storytelling in dismantling systemic barriers

Timestamps:

00:00 - Introduction: The importance of understanding systemic barriers and personal wholeness
02:20 - Recognizing your lane: From trauma to self-awareness
04:45 - Birth trauma and systemic neglect: A personal account
08:24 - The role of systemic racism in healthcare experiences
11:18 - The physical and emotional aftermath of traumatic birth
16:32 - Connecting systemic issues with cultural stigma and expectations
19:02 - Recognizing the need for self-care and redefinition of success
24:22 - Building a supportive environment through education and community support
27:30 - The influence of hope multipliers and authentic space-making
33:43 - Reintegrating systemic work and personal healing through therapy and advocacy
42:35 - How existentialism helps to see the fullness of oneself
44:12 - Owning your story: The power of visibility and authenticity
50:02 - The long journey: Deconstruction, deprogramming, and sitting in the process
53:09 - Establishing boundaries as a pathway to reimagining thriving
55:19 - The foundation of a trauma-informed therapy and coaching practice
60:49 - The significance of sacred spaces and working from the 'open heart'
66:35 - Legacy, impact, and the importance of nurturing future generations
66:44 - Final lesson: Believe in your worth and own your truth

Resources & Links:

• Neresia Osborne - LinkedIn
• The Open Heart Model (concept overview)

Transcript

Lola 0:04

Welcome to Unapologetically Whole. I'm Lola Dada-Olley , attorney, advocate, storyteller, and lifetime caregiver. This is a space for anyone navigating identity, caregiving, leadership, or the quiet work of becoming. Here we tell the truth, the beautiful parts, the complicated parts, and the parts we're still learning how to name. Some episodes are intimate reflections, others are conversations with people whose stories expand our understanding of resilience and wholeness. No matter the format, the heart of this show is the thing. To remind you that your story matters, your voice matters, and you are allowed to be whole without apology. Let's begin. Welcome to the Unapologetically Whole podcast. Thank you so very much, so very much for being with me today. And I wanted to- I'm really glad to be here. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. And I wanted to, oh my gosh, I would want to uh I'm so glad that I came across your LinkedIn profile because you are joining us near the start of our sunrise journey, if you will. We just recently sunsetted the Not Your Mama's Autism podcast. And it's five years worth of just telling some really, really important stories representing the neurodivergent community, both in the US and abroad, starting with my own family's journey, multi-generational autism and disability journey into the present day. And the reason why we sunsetted that podcast is because while autism advocacy is a really, really, really important part of our lives and will remain so, before you even get to the autism advocacy, you really want to make sure that the advocate is okay, right? You really want to make sure that the advocate is okay and what does that look like? And everyone's journey is different. And there's obviously a differences between self-advocates and advocates. But for those of us in this space that are lifetime caregivers, knowing that we're going to be caring for a loved one for the remainder of our lives, what does it look like to live this life in a way that's bold and authentic, that's tailored to you? And when I speak to audiences about this topic, I utilize something I call the three R. And I do mention that in my upcoming book. And it's recognizing the lane you now find yourself in. I call it the gift of self-awareness. Then redefining what success can now look like under these circumstances. And then reimagining what it now means to thrive. And I call that the gift of self-fulfillment. And I know that that may look different every single day. And when I think of someone who may exhibit these three R's, I think of you, Neresia Osborne, therapist, renaissance woman, mom, advocate, lifetime caregiver. So with that in mind, I think we should get started. You are the mother of a child with complex medical needs. How did your journey begin? How did you learn to recognize your lane?

Neresia 3:59

It's it's a big story. Where should I start? Can I start at the birth? Please. Yeah. So if I start at the birth, so I was pregnant with twins, so my my son is a twin. And being pregnant and being pregnant with twins was the most magical thing I'd ever imagined. So I had a fascination for twins. I wanted to have twins. So to have this manifestation become a reality without anyone in my family even having twins, it was the most authentic thing I could have come into being with. And I was gonna be the most beautiful mother ever. And sadly that it didn't end that way at the hospital. And at the hospital, he sadly suffered traumatic brain injury where he didn't recover. He didn't recover from the injuries. He was the firstborn, he was seven pounds ten ounces. I'm not sure how you work out in the US. But he was quite a big baby, quite a big, you know, baby for being a twin. And through complex severe negligence, just negligence on their part, he suffered horrific um hypoxic events, and he was diagnosed with four-limb cerebopalsy. He's registered blind, he has dystonia and spasticity, and my journey started. I think that journey, like I knew I was a woman before. I didn't really consider myself poor, far from it. You know, I had a good job, I had a house, I was driving, I was living the best life. But at the point of that event, I realized I was black, like that, you know, as that, like that. And I all of a sudden I was nothing made sense. So red wasn't red, a square was not square, neither was a s like nothing made sense. And I fell to pieces. I think later on I went to describe it that I died every night and I would get reborn every morning. So I would prepare for death every night because he wouldn't sleep, he had a lot of sleeping issues, he had feeding problems. So if he didn't feed during the day, he wouldn't feed, you know, you'd have to be up because he was he was in pain. He was traumatized himself. Um, so that took that was a whole different picture because he had his brother and then his brother wasn't sleeping because he was awake, so he'd have to split them up. Um, that meant added pressure on myself and and their dad at the time because it was like, what is this? We didn't really get any support. The hospital was horrendous. They referred me at the time to psychiatry, you know, which I now know was pathologizing me, saying I had mental health issues because I was questioning them about what happened. And I kind of missed a bit. So my son also sus sustained injury, but so had I sustained injury. So I was uh temporarily I was temporarily paralyzed. So I was in a wheelchair and I had a few complications myself, to have a blood transfusion, had they had infected me. The list goes on and on and on. So there was just a lot of challenges around the birth and what they had done. And as I said, I'd entered this new land, not just with new babies and that there were twins, because my new reality was that I was black like that.

Lola 7:13

Let's unpack that. You said that second this is the second time you said like that. Let's unpack that.

Neresia 7:19

Yeah.

Lola 7:20

What when you said due to so many things, your babies had complications, you had complications. One not making it. Were your concerns ignored? Did you feel like your concerns were ignored as you were going through pain? Because when you say you're black like that, we know now what we know now about black maternal statistics, and that's both in the US and the UK. Is that what you mean?

Neresia 7:46

Absolutely. Absolutely. From beginning to end, I was completely ignored. I was left for hours. Um, I think it was over a day in the worst conditions ever imagined. Like you just can't imagine a situation like that that they left me in. Um I was terrorized. I was terrorized. I had, if anyone should enter the room, they would just ignore me. I was saying, you know, I you know, I was vomiting at one point, they were making me walk in another point. I was telling them that like something's wrong, you know. The heart monitors were going off, like just going off. And I was just left humiliated. Um, in my experience, the doctor, when she did check, it was more of a humiliation ritual where she would make comments about my, you know, my feminine area and what was going on around my feminine area and why my partner couldn't have done something about that. I remember getting sick and I had a temperature and she said, Well, you know, you probably got something in Africa. You know, she would comment on my appearance. So, you know, my my uh doctor at the time, a lady, was commenting on how I looked while I was going through labor. So by that time I was swollen because they'd also given me an infection. You know, it was just the worst pain, the worst of everything. And I remember saying that I'm going to die, and they would just laugh. So I was induced, which was against my obstetrician's advice at that time. And I think it was 48 hours I was left, and then they decided to unfortunately, which we now know was the seminal moment of the of the start of the rest of my life, they burst one of the sac, which actually infected him, infected us with uh E. coli septicemia. So it was just the worst thing, and and it was at that point she said, you know, you must have got that infection from Africa. Despite having an uneventful pregnancy, my babies were full term, I had no complications, never had a problem.

Lola 9:51

Full-term twins is not an easy feat. Full-term twins.

Neresia 9:55

Yeah, full term. So that's what I mean when I said I was black like that. I realized I was I was a nothing. I was uh nobody, I was nothing, I was a scum of the earth, I was filth, I was no one. Yeah. And I became this nothing in the hospital, just sweaty in pain. They had put my legs into the stirrups, I think that's what they're called, and left me there. So I basically bled out. They cut me with uh scissors, they cut my vagina without anesthetic and just left me there. And I remember bleeding out. I remember another doctor coming in saying, What is this? And there was just a lot of noise, and then he refused to get involved, so people were refusing to touch me because they were very aware of what was happening and that it was wrong, but they didn't want to get their pin in the middle of it. So eventually a doctor did come in and he said, I'm really sorry, this is gonna hurt you a lot. And yeah, he was the one who stitched me up and I ended up having a blood transfusion and it was um I had seizures. I remember even convulsing at that point. So it was one of the you know, that that was my experience, that was my entry into Into motherhood. Into motherhood. Um and at that time I d wasn't aware that my twin had been brain injured. I didn't know this because um they refused to take me out of the room. Being that I was very ill, I could understand now why they didn't allow me to see him. I think it was a couple of days because I was in intensive care, because I had also contracted ecology sepsemia, my legs because they'd left me up in the stirrup, I was quite physically enabled, disabled, and I wasn't able to walk. And I had a lot of uh out-of-body experiences while on while on that ward. And I remember uh, you know, a nurse coming to see me in the night and she said uh I said to her, Who's that sitting next to me? And she said, Who? And I said, There's a uh there's a man in a chair writing down notes and wheeling back in a chair. And she said, There's no one there. And she explained where I was and she was a Christian, so she just got down on her hands and knees and she started praying. And I said, Where am I? She says, You're in the hospital room. I said, No, I'm not. Because I in my mind, I was on a raft and I was at sea. So I had a lot of kind of experiences. I'm not sure because I was awake, but my my reality, what was being what was coming to me, was not being in that hospital room. I was somewhere, somewhere else. So I had I had a few of those, but I was told, you know, it's a ward, a lot of strange things happen on the ward, which didn't help me at the time. Did not help me at the time. So as I said, it was a couple of days before I was able to be willed to see my my twins, and they brought us into a room and they said, I'm really sorry. And I don't know what they said. I don't know what they said, to be honest. I just heard sorry and that was it. I have no memory. Even after years of therapy, I have no memory of what they said to me and uh my twins, my twins' dad. At that time, no, no memory. But I remember the nurse crying, I remember like this hollow sound permeating through my body, and that was it. That was it. And they took us into the intensive ward, and my son was hooked up to every piece of equipment that I I would I never knew that was possible. And he was this beautiful baby, and he was so big and he was so juicy, you know. He was gorgeous. And I was like, Oh my god, did did did I make this baby? And I remember just being very angry and helpless all in the same time. Yeah. And I couldn't do anything, and I said, take me out of the room. I just wanted to run away, but I couldn't run away because I was in a wheelchair. So they were saying, you know, we don't know what's gonna happen to him, and this is what happens to black boys. This this is what happened, yeah. So yeah, so that was my that was my start into motherhood and into this beautiful existence that I was gonna have.

Lola 14:08

I often tell people that sometimes for those of us with these similar journeys, it's being drafted into the special unit forces of motherhood or parenthood. Your story is tragic, but unfortunately it's all too common. Yeah, it's absolutely all too common. I can relate to parts of your story. We've talked about this offline before we ever started recording, but I can relate because hopefully people now see that systemic racism and bias, it's not in the name calling, it's not in the finger pointing, it's the complete ignoring and erasure of somebody else's humanity.

Neresia 14:51

Absolutely.

Lola 14:52

And when somebody is at their most vulnerable, they're literally giving life and you're ignored until you've experienced it. You have no idea. And it's triggering, you've seen recent viral videos at the time we're taping this. It's November 30th of 25. And we've seen this, and you and I have talked about this briefly last week of these viral videos of these women screaming for pain, screaming for them to be seen. They just want to be seen, and they're not being seen.

Neresia 15:26

Yeah.

Lola 15:26

So thank you for sharing this. Thank you so much. I thank you. That was not easy to share. So thank you.

Neresia 15:36

Thank you.

Lola 15:38

And it's like I said, I came across your LinkedIn profile. We don't know each other personally, but we share a similar journey. Could you share how this experience somehow, someway, you talked about dying every single night? Talk to us more about what you mean by that and what made you realize that okay, this is my lane from which I'm gonna jump off from. How did I learn to recognize the lane I'm in? So tell us more.

Neresia 16:10

How did I learn to recognize the lane I was in? I think I I recognize it in different ways. Society has a way of setting you up. So I think at that point I believe so much in the doctors, you know, in the physios and the OTs and the speech and language therapists, and you know, all these people, you know, they they're gonna help me and things are gonna change. And actually, I was black like that. It's true. That's true. And you know, they will come to my home and it was really just about your house is clean, and it was never about getting my son to walk. So at that time, you know, my son's gonna walk, my son's gonna sit up, my son's gonna see, you know. At that point, they told me, you know, it's gonna be fine, you know. Stevie Wonder is doing well, isn't he? So he's blind, so your son will be fine. And I was horrified. So they would come and I had all these kind of ideas, you know, they're gonna make it better. So from that context, I was black like that. My own family, you know, disability was frowned upon. And at that time, being that he was a baby, there was a sense of from my immediate family, of disgust. There was a lot of shame, there was a lot of rejection. You know, my social circle again, there was a lot of shaming, there was a lot of rejection. My my culture was very, well, it's your fault, you know. So I used to say to myself, Oh, it's because I wore that black skirt to the hospital. Maybe I didn't pray enough. There was something that I didn't do that should have been done, or maybe I went out without a a cardigan or something. So that must be the reason why this has happened. So you know, there was a whole spectrum of different things at the same time that was focused on me being the problem. You know, children's dad, his family was very much culturally, there's something wrong with m my body. There's something wrong with my womb. So I would there's something and they would just suggest so many different things. It was like a form of terrorism, like a a spiritual terrorism that I was battling to get out of. But I had a had a strong background in in local authority, local government, and I had a uh a strong kind of um fighter mentality of finding something. There has to be something. So I I don't know what it was, but I remember very early just phoning people or going online and searching. I don't know what I was searching for, but I would get my son's files and I'll put the words in because I didn't know what the words meant. Some of these clinical terms, I didn't know what it meant, and I would Google or I would phone or I would do whatever it was, you know. I would uh we had the most fantastic uh dietitian and she was very inspirational in supporting me as to what I could do. So I got heavily into nutrition and food and what's good for the brain and learning about myelin cells and you know all these things around, you know, what could be done. So I think my my journey into finding my own path started early, but it took a long time because there was a lot of deconstructing that had to happen. So at the same time I'm deconstructing, the world is pulling me down. So then I and then I had to find space to look after the children at the same time as building them up and building myself up. So it's like I was at war and that war was myself because there was no help in the way that there should have been, and no one's gonna tell you, because remember I'm black like that. You know, I'm you've unmistakably black. So the the access, the support was not there for me, but it took a while. I think the first step for me, you know, in my home was to educate my children. So because I knew what was problematic, I would set about doing educational stuff with them at home. So when I say educational stuff, I mean rolling. So my son couldn't roll and he couldn't creep, so he couldn't do anti-ye coordination. So I would set up this little gym in my house to make sure he had everything in the house to help to support himself to reach it reaching these developmental milestones. So every book I had it, every toy I had it, every visual aid, every stimulus, every pillow I had it in in in my home. And, you know, people who came into into my home, they were highly critical, so I would have to get through that. The the crit criticism, the judgment, uh the rejection, the isolation, the shaming. So it was constant and it it weathered me. It weathered me a lot. I think um I finally got some I finally got some reprieve, I think, possibly when they were 18 months. And I I I don't know exactly what occurred. I think I had to look for a a nursery because I refused to let them go to nursery. So they were saying, Oh, you need to look for a nursery, and it dawned on me, Oh my god, they're gonna be two years old. I have to get them into nursery. And I finally got a ray of sunlight from a lady called Shade Kocha. And she was the nursery owner, and it was around the corner from me. So I went and I called her and I don't know, she just said, Please come and see me. And I went and she radically shifted my whole trajectory of the path that I was on. And she you know, she would just say stuff. She she she implored on in me to, you can do this, you can do that, you can do this, you know, you can do that, we can h help you, they have to do this. It was you know, it was It was kind of like very soft, but it was very firm and strong. Yeah. So I would I was like, oh, okay, I I can do this. So that gave me more space.

Lola 22:10

It sounds like a hope multiplier came into your life. I call them hope multipliers because on this journey there are so many hope detractors. So many. So many. And it sounds like Shade was the one that helped, was the first person, it sounds like, besides the dietitian who said, Okay, I I will hold your hand because this road is long. This road is a marathon.

Neresia 22:35

Yeah.

Lola 22:36

I'll help you hold your hand. Let's unpack. You've dropped again so many nuggets. Let's go back to cultural stigma, cultural expectations. Where is your family originally from?

Neresia 22:49

So my family originally from Jamaica. Yeah. I mean, I was born in Jamaica. Um, and I lived in Jamaica up until I was 10. My mom is born in the UK, but went to Jamaica when she was probably around 10. And then uh, you know, we we came back to England. So we have lots of family in in the in England and and the US.

Lola 23:12

I jokingly call Jamaican well, not jokingly, it's it's historical. We are DNA cousins as well, Jamaicans and Nigerians. And me being Nigerian, a lot of your story I could relate to about the cultural stigma, about the blaming the woman, about there's something must be quote unquote wrong with her or her womb or her essence or her spirit or fill in the blank. It's and it's always the her.

Neresia 23:40

Yeah.

Lola 23:40

I wrote in my book. I said it's funny that whenever something like this happens, it's due to a witch in the family, and but there's never any wizards. There are never any wizards. No, only witches, never wizards.

Neresia 23:51

Yeah, only witches.

Lola 23:54

And knowing that, and just that goes back to the recognizing of the lane because you call it deconstruction, and it certainly is that. I call it deprogramming, which is again another cousin, but there's so much of this mind that becomes a battlefield that if you don't treat it as such, it's very, very, very hard to get to reimagining what it now means to thrive. And it sounds like you and I once again have similar, similar journeys. So thank God for Sade as a hope multiplier. So tell us more about some of the things she talked to you about, and maybe maybe that became the segue to your career in therapy now.

Neresia 24:33

Yeah. Yeah, I think what Sade did was not just install still hope, was she reminded me of of a realization that I I could it could happen and it must happen. Not even that it could, she shifted, like, of course this can happen, and they have to do that. So she ignited that spirit that I don't think was dormant, it had died, and I needed to reseed, you know, I needed to get up, and I didn't know how to get up because I was carrying so much shame. I was carrying so much, I don't even know what I was carrying. It was heavy, and I was exhausted and I didn't have any words. So she reminded me of what I could do, what I what I was good at. To f you know, identify not just all the things that was bad and what had happened, you know, the trauma, but what was good, what was what was your strength, and how could you use it, and what could you do and what could you look forward to? Like, you know, that point I'd given up hope of the school that I wanted them to go to. So she reminded me, but that's not impossible, you know? That's not impossible. You can still do this. You know, this person can help you, I can help you, I can contact this person. So she did a lot, and there was also a social worker, and he wasn't my son's social worker. Actually, he was uh you worked for the council, there was two of them. One was called Michael Duncall, and there was another gentleman that his name escapes me. But they recognized my talent because I worked in local government before. So they would invite me onto steering panels and and groups for mothers of, you know, complex needs, disabled children, all the spectrum. And that brought me into a community space where I could do what I do best, which is to which is to listen and believe the mothers and work with them in whatever area we are able to facilitate facilitate and be kind of like the medium space between the local authority and the the parents and help the local authority to make sure the policies and procedures they were putting in place actually worked. And if it didn't work, we'll have to do a consultation and we'll feed back to them and we'll work with them on drafting these policies or procedures. And that opened up another door. So that's I started to work with a charity and um who was supported by a firm of solicitors. So the doors just kept opening. I started to meet different people, um, I started to become more engaged in understanding of this new world that I'd found myself in. And it was interesting and it became very fruitful. And they were very supportive and they understood me. So everyone understood, everyone had space, and we were able to create a lot of meaning, you know, we were able to communicate. We could, as you said, reimagine what life could be like if this is done in a particular way, if services were provided in a particular particular way, and if mothers were empowered in a particular way, what that could look like.

Lola 27:37

So you recognize the lane you now found yourself in, you started to redefine what success now look like. So you took this history of local government work and this experience that you know could have been different. And somehow the two came together, and then you started studying psychotherapy.

Neresia 28:02

No, not quite, not there yet. We've missed a whole bit out. So while doing that work, again, my blackness was not just the only intersection, class was an intersection. You see, I was surrounded at the table by white middle class women who had time and money and resources. And who who was I? Where did I get the time? Where did I get the money and the resources to sit at that table and navigate the local authority to get access for my child and get these services? So in some respect, you know, that kind of what could you say? That was, you know, through that situation, you know, I became highlighted. I wouldn't say targeted, but yes, I was highlighted, like, who's this black girl? You know, not a woman, I was this girl. And how did she get here? And why are they listening to her? What was going on there? So that for me stayed with me. And then I decided that what was I gonna do with my life? Because now I started to think, you know, my twins are now over two, they're more than two years old, what am I gonna do with my life? So my imagination kicked in. I'm gonna do creative writing and I'm gonna write books and I'm gonna do all these wonderful things. But at the time I was going to therapy and I remember speaking to my therapist about it, and I I felt completely dissatisfied. At that time, I still felt incomplete, like the pain, it wasn't just the pain of what happened from the birth, it was just the pain of the unknowing. There was so much uncertainty and I I I didn't underst I didn't have the words. I had no words to make sense of my experiences, like all these intersections, what was going on, you know, I wasn't in my work anymore, what was gonna happen to me. And I decided, you know, I w I remember just going to therapy all the time and having this real struggle. And because I was going to therapy, it was really challenging because my family hated me going to therapy, because only crazy people go to therapy. Yeah, so I must be mad. So I must be mad. So I I really struggled at that time. And then I started to become more creative in my outlook, and it started with my own house, um, trying to voice what was coming up inside. I would I think at the time I was having kind of like a uh maybe, you know, my therapist said it wasn't a break, but because I didn't have the words and I I couldn't write. I wanted to do writing, but I couldn't write. So I started to redecorate. But more interestingly, I would paint everything black. Everything was black in my in my bedroom, but everything on the stairs was pink. And yeah, I it was having some kind of breakdown, but they said no, it's a breakthrough. So it was after that I decided I'm going to step into counselling and learn about counselling itself. And I went and I completed three certificates at the time. And by the time I did the second one, I realized I could help more people. Because I think I initially went in it to help myself, but by the time I did the second certificate, I thought, no, I I I could do this, I could change my career, I could do stuff and I could help people, I could go to charities and I could help the solicitors and I could work with them. And I was so unsure. And I did another certificate, but by the time I did the third certificate, I knew that I was gonna not just be a counsellor. I didn't want to just be a counsellor because I knew these I knew this the this existence was gonna be problematic and they had to have some more credibility behind what I was gonna do. And I discovered counselling psychology and I applied for an undergraduate degree in counseling psychology, and it was on that course that I broke apart. Yeah, I broke apart on that course and it had to happen. Yeah, um and I I you know I understand that, and it was the three best years of my adult life being on that course because imagine being encased in something that's very hard, but thinking, you know, just going about your business, but you're actually encased in something. So that what that course did was to break all of this thing that had crystallized around me, and I just fell out. I just fell out, and in falling out, that's when I discovered existentialism and black existentialism. And I just thought this is insane that at this age I'm just learning about this. I'm just learning about existentialism, I'm just learning about black existentialism, this is insane. I'm just learning about, you know, the good mother, and I recognize so much of what had happened to me and how systems how systems are layered and interplayed and they make trauma very individualistic when actually it's a sick system that's that's per you know perpetuating violence against my existence. That's what was happening. So I kind of fell out out of breath, soaked and wet and just ready to move on.

Lola 33:20

So you it was through existentialism that helped you see sounds like the fullness of yourself. Absolutely. So talk through, I guess, how that helped you move into this next chapter, how existentialism helped bring those building blocks. So what made you it sounds like, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I'm gleaning from the conversation, existentialism helped you to see all of you. It's almost like you feel like how I describe it is the older you get, you almost feel like, oh, this is like the matrix. Like, oh, I thought I was acting alone in concert. I thought I was more compartmentalized than I really was. And it's part of the rebrand of this podcast to unapologetically whole, because I think the more we all seek being whole and not some societal view of what all this is supposed to look like, hence the matrix, the better off we will all be. So existentialism, you broke down. What was just take us into your mind as you're painting that black wall, take us into your mind as to what those initial thoughts you're starting to understand more about yourself, that road to self-awareness.

Neresia 34:43

Okay. So when I did my room like a cave, I had already told myself I'm death. Yeah, I I'm death, and I'm not gonna come alive until my son walks. And I used to say that, well, I'm not gonna, I'm just gonna be dead and I'm just gonna bury myself in this room until everyone else changes. You know, everyone else has to change. Then I will change. That's what I was telling myself at that time. By the time I did the ed, you know, my uh degree and I'd go in through the course, it's me. I need to change. I need to I do have the choice. I can have I do have a choice. I don't have to become what they say I have to become. I don't have to do this. It's perfectly fine if my life is not nine to five up in the night to look after my son. It means I it's perfectly fine to create my own existence to serve myself and my family. It's perfectly fine that they don't like me, that they don't love me, that they don't care for me. Do you care for yourself? Do you love yourself? So it was all of those kind of questions around being being a woman, being a black woman, being a human being, being a mother, being a mother of twins, you know, what was I setting myself up for? So all these kind of questions, you know, when broken down to their common denominator, became just around my existence. So that's what existentialism did for me. It kind of opened up something that I already possessed but didn't even know, didn't even know it. And in fact, that whole three years, which was, as I said, one of you know the three most beautiful years of my adult existence, set me up for the next 10 years of my life. Because without that, I don't think I would have survived again the the next ten years.

Lola 36:41

Because I it would have consumed you.

Neresia 36:44

Pardon?

Lola 36:45

It would have consumed you.

Neresia 36:46

Absolutely, absolutely. So the universe has a way of doing that, you know. It it it puts you through some things for you to make choices, you know, and and it's it's about knowing that even with any choice you have another choice. I think uh I think within the first year of completing the uh my degree uh their dad had a stroke. He had a major yeah, he had a major stroke. And I think I've all often said those three years, if I didn't have the psychology of understanding around trauma, of understanding around, you know, lived experiences, I would have folded. In fact I did fold, but not into pieces that that could have easily will have happened.

Lola 37:32

There's a book title I've been drawn to. It's called um Damaged But Not Destroyed. Yeah. And that's what I hear in your story. You've been through so much, but it there's still so much to give.

Neresia 37:46

Yeah, I do feel that. I'm glad you see it and hear it, because that's exactly how I feel. I do feel this there is so much more of who I am as a as a person for me to even indulge in. It's not just to give to someone else, it's for me to discover about myself and find peace with about myself because so much of my experience has been not just pathologized, but shamed and you know, twisted and rejected. Um and when you start to live other people's perceptions, you know, it it's it's it's profound. But when you start living your own truth and your own reality from your own choices, and you're completely at peace with that, it's it's revolutionary.

Lola 38:35

It truly is, and then you have to start preparing for something else, which is and this is what's been happening to me in the past couple of years, and tell me if you agree, is once you one I call it owning your story. Yeah, it's actually the tagline in my book, and once you start to own your story, other people notice, and it almost creates this own dichotomy. They're the people who become team Neresia and those who become like who does she think she is? She's supposed to sit in this old existence that I wanted her to stay in. But that's how you know you're doing this right. That's how you know you're doing this right. Because walking towards the light when you've been hit with this level of darkness is not, it's not an assignment for the week.

Neresia 39:23

No, it's not. Absolutely, it's not. And owning my story, I I actually tell people that this is my path. I don't reject it, you know. I wouldn't wish it on someone else, but this is mine. I this is you know, it's mine. You know, there's a there's a it doesn't matter if there's a reason or or who's re this is it.

Lola 39:45

And it's uniquely yours. It's uniquely yours.

Speaker 3 39:49

Yeah.

Lola 39:49

Because um in Nigeria there's this old saying, and I'm gonna code switch a little bit. Now you know where your shoe de pinch. Like we're all wearing shoes, but only you know where in that shoe it hurts. The rest of the world may not know. But knowing that, knowing that, and just seeing just even you telling your story, and I'm so glad you brought up deconstruction, deconstruction, deprogramming, and what it takes and the realness of that. Because I think we live in this generation of everything once everybody wants things done yesterday, overnight. This is a process.

Neresia 40:28

Yes.

Lola 40:28

Sometimes you gotta sit in the process, you gotta sit in the pain, in the ugliness of it, in the why did this happen the way it happened, and especially if you're from a performance culture, you've learned you're a woman, you're a black woman, especially, you learn to be a human doing before you ever become a human being, at least for many of us.

Neresia 40:52

And that's so true. And that's one of the reasons why, you know, traditionally in Jamaica you do rice and peas on Sunday. And I intentionally don't do rice and peas on Sunday sometimes. Because I'm tired. Yeah. I'm I'm exhausted, and I don't does the, you know, because this thing is, oh, you're supposed to, good mom, you're respecting the culture, you know, you're doing but actually we might just want to sleep because we're up we because we've been up all night or something could have happened. It I don't clarify anymore. In the past I used to kind of say, Oh no, we have to do this, we have to No, we don't, because that doesn't work for us. And you know, going back to what you said, the culture wants things done now. If I have an appointment and they say, Oh, the appointment's for 9 15, I'll say, No, I I can't make that. Oh, you have to come to the appointment because I said we are unable to make that time because I have to factor in uh travel time and the time it will take to get my son up so that you're asking us to get up five o'clock in the morning. And that would yeah, that will not be possible. So it's just l and it's it's up to them after that. It's not up to me. You know, so it's kind of uh it's not just assertive, it's kind of knowing it's kind of knowing what it takes to be you every single day and to not fall into that pleasing factor that's gonna now disrupt, interrupt, and dismantle the rest of the day for you. If you've got other priorities, it's just not gonna work. So I don't buy into that. And if I want if they want to label me difficult, they have. Yeah, that's your definition of a difficult mother, but that doesn't really work for me. So if you may want to have another look and give us an afternoon appointment, then we can make that work, but it's not gonna it can't happen any other way. So I'm very strict about that.

Lola 42:47

And you that's a great point, is establishing boundaries is essential to this journey. I think it's really, I mean, redefining success and establishing boundaries go hand in hand, and even reimagining what it means to thrive. My definition of that, because it means how do you now flourish under these circumstances, is connecting to the wholeness of you. Like I you know, who who are you really?

Neresia 43:14

Yeah. It's recognizing your own humanity. Because this journey takes you out of your own humanity. If you're a carer, you end up thinking about everyone's needs but your own. And if you're in a careful, you have knickers with the elastic coming out, and I'm talking about Liv Deg Rally, you know, you've got holes in your underwear, your hair is not done, and you know, just simple things about being human, is you're no longer recognized, yeah, because you're you you've not really it's not about letting yourself go, you forget your own.

Lola 43:50

You genuinely forget. You genuinely forget. You really do.

Neresia 43:54

Yeah. So I think what happens here is what what's becoming whole, I had to say. Step in without guilt because this is what this does to you. It makes you feel that if you start to look after yourself, you know, you're you're no longer good enough because you're not looking after everyone else. And how dare you look after yourself, you know. So the moment you recognize your own needs and not to ignore what your body's saying, you know, my legs hurting me, my arms hurting me, I am tired without judgment, because we do that a lot. We can go around judging ourselves for feeling or not feeling or not being up to it. So I think for me it was really about knowing that I'm human. I'm human.

Lola 44:38

So reconnecting to all of you the woman, the mother, the therapist, the advocate. Tell us what made you realize that you now needed to found the therapy and coaching consultancy.

Neresia 44:53

Okay. So I what happened after that? Yeah, so their dad had a stroke and I'd got my undergraduate degree. So in the UK, you have to do the doctorate to be uh HCP registered to practice as a counseling psychologist. It's a protected title. And again, I found myself because of his stroke, uh face down, because there was another shame now. Oh my god, you have two disabled people, you know, and the family and the oh just everyone. So I was face down again, palms down, and I lost or forgotten about my ambition to be a you know, to do this doctorate. And I decided instead to again go back to what Shade said. What have you got? What have you got? And what I had was the natural ability to coach and support and to help people to reimagine and to provide space and be creative. And so at the time I was still helping, you know, other parents, you know, using my therapy skills, but mainly as a coach. So I decided to do an integrative course in counseling and coaching, which I entered, you know, very uh, you know, excited. Um, but feeling that I'd betrayed myself, but I continued. But I think within the first six months I knew um I needed to do my doctorate. So I think just a journey again of being on that course. Um I got confident again and um I decided to finish the course, which I did, I finished it, and then I decided to uh apply for my doctorate, which I did. And it was during that journey um I was encouraged to set up a service for mothers like myself to work with mothers with children with complex needs, ADHD autism, Down syndrome, because it was naturally happening, it was natural, you know, I'd get referrals, so that was my inspiration. Um as time went on and I started to accept the black like me, I was encouraged to put your face on that screen, put your story on that screen, put your story out there. And it took me a while. It took me a while, but with more therapy, I got there and I put my picture up that this is me, I'm black like this, and it just took off from there. So I have a s because I'm doing the doctorate now, uh, I have a small practice that I still run and I help to support mothers um who've been, you know, experienced traumatic birth and birth trauma, but it's mainly black women that I work with.

Lola 47:30

So um can you talk to me a little bit about the open heart model?

Neresia 47:34

Okay, it's the open heart model came out of the coaching. It by it's by a lady called I can't remember her surname, but it was a very good approach to how you you work with parents who have disabled children. So that model was an integration, really. It used integrative skills and how you would say work with a mother of a child with autism, how you would enter the home, how you how you would, you know, work with paperwork so that you're not belittling, you're not encrouching on any boundaries. So I used not the approach per se, but the concept of having an open heart. So it's just basically saying, you know, you're working from an empathetic place, not a place of sympathy. You're working in a wholeness, you're working with the person and not the child's disability. The person comes first, the human comes first, the family comes first. So you're making that connection as a professional, but as a human being first. So that's how I use it. And that's why I say sacred spaces, because a lot of black families don't have a safe space. A lot of black women don't have a safe space. So I say it's a sacred space, it's a space where they can enter and be safe, and then they can put the rules in, the boundaries around how they work, and they can be authentic, they can bring everything about them.

Lola 49:00

Speaking of bringing everything, you have both a therapeutic and coaching background. How do you know which services to employ or mix the two depending on the client?

Neresia 49:13

Yeah, yeah. With the client, it's always contracted. So some clients come just for therapy, so you can contract based on the you know what's been discussed, on the services that they're looking for, and what the service that may be provided. So it could be a client might say, I just want six weeks of coaching. You know, sometimes if a person has never been into therapy before, the word therapy is like a cuss word, you know, it's a word for some cultures, um, it's bad, you know, it's a for mad people, you know. So sometimes it's easier for them to say coaching rather than therapy. But it it is it is changing. It is changing. But for each client, it's a contracting, you contract based on the client's needs, whether it's for therapy or coaching or integrative therapy and coaching.

Lola 50:01

We've talked a lot about systemic barriers as they've applied to you, but as you've opened up your practice and you've seen others with similar stories, where do you think, at least in the UK through your eye, where do you think there could be, where can we start towards removing some of these systemic barriers in a way that could help mothers overcome just the barriers to services, the barriers to just feeling like they belong. Where would you start? So, in other words, if you had all the money in the world, where would you start?

Neresia 50:38

I will start with you, Lola. Platforms like this that are visible, raw, and truthful and authentic. That's where I will start. Because it starts with the lived experience, because a lot of what's already out there pathologizes black women, and that's what's dismissed. What's dismissed is our lived reality. But with the social media now, there's a lot of the same story. Yeah. Yeah, they're they're very visible because people are putting these things out there. But with platforms like yours, when you can get lived realities out there and you and people can share and empower through speaking, through visibility, that's where we need to start. You know, you could throw thousands and thousands of whatever money at this. It wouldn't change the systemic barriers. It starts with these conversations, it starts with the reality, it starts with the visibility and the networking and the understanding that to dismantle this is not going to be overnight. Yeah. Because you could have because you see, what was I gonna say? Systemic barriers, it's not just the typical gatekeepers. Sometimes it's people that look like us.

Lola 51:44

Well, there's there's a whole other show.

Neresia 51:46

Yeah, yeah. Sometimes it's people that look like us that you know. I once gave a presented at a small conference, and you know, one of the most openly attacking person was a woman. And it was a black woman who, you know, who went on to voice that, you know, black women's bodies, there's something wrong with our bodies. So they there's this internalized pathology that our problems, our bodies are a site of problems. So I think what I'm doing in my work in the UK is not only to inform therapeutic practice or to bring visibility to black existentialism, is to create a whole new praxis. Because again, if you look at, you know, I've uh, you know, part of my research, I've just started, there's literally so such limited information on black women with children with complex needs. It's it doesn't exist. There's there's nothing there.

Lola 52:43

Yeah, we are out here, we exist, and we are doing our best to make the world a little bit better than how we came into it. There's we could go on for hours and hours. I would love to have you back on the pod. I really would, because I would love to talk to you about women who you've coached, that I'd love to talk to you more about your coaching tree and how you view legacy, because I'm going to guess, based on all the work you're doing, that you believe that legacy is beyond just your children.

Neresia 53:11

Absolutely.

Lola 53:12

I feel that way too. The legacy is beyond just your children. It's who you manage, who you coach, who you pour life into. And I'm sure people want to know where are these babies now? And I'm guessing they're no longer babies.

Neresia 53:29

No, they're not no longer babies. Uh, this happened almost 20 years ago. So my first twin, which is a twin who has disabilities, he's doing very well. He's very, very healthy, you know, he gets involved in the community, enjoys swimming and a variety of activities. So he's well supported by uh his carers which assist him with most of his daily living outside of the home and inside the home, to be honest. And my second twin is doing very, very well. So he's become, you know, I mean, both my boys are all of me, but he has showered me with this, you know, this powerful beam of light, and he's done even more more for himself. He's more, he's become more than me, which I'm so grateful to witness after everything that we've gone through. So he currently sits pure maths, and I'm so proud. He's at university. He got like three double A stars, and he got a B in Mandarin and physics and maths and further math. So he's just amazing. And I'm just so grateful for who I was and who I became to help to support them on their life journey. I'm just, you know, really, really pleased about, you know, that brings another dimension of wholeness for me, you know, as a as a mother to see them doing so well. Well done. Well done. Thank you.

Lola 54:57

If you could distill one lesson from your work that you'd want every caregiver to carry with them, what would it be?

Neresia 55:07

I believe you. I believe you. I believe you.

Lola 55:16

I believe you. Say that again. I believe you. This was not a figment of your imagination.

Neresia 55:22

No.

Lola 55:23

I see you, I believe you.

Neresia 55:24

Yeah, I believe you with all my open heart. Like, I I believe you. For so many of us, we're just not believed. Thank you. You're welcome, and thank you. And I'd love to come back on. God bless you. God bless you.

Lola 55:41

Thank you for joining me on Unapologetically Whole. My hope is that something you heard today offered you some space to breathe, reflect, and feel seen. If this episode resonated with you, please take a moment to rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you live. It helps this community grow. And if you want to stay connected, visit loladadaali.com, l-ol e y dot com to sign up for my monthly newsletter, purchase my upcoming book, Unapologetically Whole, or learn how to bring me to your next event as a speaker. Until next time, I'm Lola Dada Olley, and this is Unapologetically Whole.