Hello and thank you for downloading episode 398 of the Speak Life Podcast. My name is Thomas Thorgood and I work at Speak Life and we will jump straight into the conversation.
SPEAKER_03Well hello and welcome to the Speakeasy. My name is Paul Feasy, and tonight I'm joined by Glenn Scrivener and today Morganlock. It's great to have you all with us this week, whether you're kind of joining us live now or whether you're watching this kind of after the uh after the fact. Um as always, if you're watching at the moment, you can chip in with your comments in the live chat, uh both on Facebook and on YouTube. Um and if you're watching this afterwards, do put some comments down below as well, because we'd like to engage with those and hear um kind of what you think about what we what we've been chatting about. Um last week we gave some sort of initial reactions to the conflict that's erupted um between Ukraine and Russia. Obviously, things have kind of continued to develop and intensify over this past week, and there's not really any uh obvious signs of resolution at the moment. Um, and in fact, some Western officials had predicted now that we might be at the beginning of a war that could last anywhere from 10 to 20 years, um, which is uh obviously quite shocking for us to hear. Um, here in the West, we've tended to believe that as a society we're moving forwards all the time, we're gradually sort of um progressing, we're leaving behind things like religion and we're getting kind of more prosperous um and kind of um forward thinking. But I suppose in recent years we've been experiencing um plague and now war and what looks like increasing economic hardship as well, and actually famine, yeah. Um and it looks like spirituality and religion actually have grown in influence. Um so looking at our kind of title tonight, we're talking about being post-Christian or post-secular. Um, it might be helpful for us just to start off by saying what on earth does that actually mean, just for the people like me who don't know what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_06Okay. Well, the secularization thesis um put forward by people like Peter Berger in the 1960s was that obviously as we get more prosperous we will have you know less and less space for God, which isn't that's not a bad hypothesis. Like if Jesus says in Matthew 6, you either you either follow God or money. Like, okay, as money increases, um it's a it's kind of a fair hypothesis to think that the the need for God kind of gets squeezed out. Um and so he he was making predictions like by the end of the 1990s, like Christianity will just be a thing of the past. And that that was the thesis that so many people ran with. Of course, hilariously, it's always been the thesis that people have run with. You know, David Hume was like, you know, within a generation we'll run out of you know Christians, and I think now the Bible Society meets in his house or something in in Edinburgh, and you know, people like um Thomas Jefferson um said that by the time he was dead, um, that um everyone would either be a Unitarian or an atheist, you know, by the time that he was dead. And of course, he lived through amazing revival, you know, Edwards and Whitfield and and all that kind of stuff. So again and again we see this um prediction that the church has run out of juice, and this is it, guys. This time it's really you know, we've really hit hit a wall. Um and then you have like a historian like Francis Fukuyama who's like predicting the end of history, like after the end of the Berlin War. That's it. Like we've now just settled on our kind of liberal democracy, we've all got iPhones now, so that's it. Like we've arrived and we will never get you know knocked off our little perch. And then comes plague, and then comes war, and here comes famine, and we recognize that we are not the masters of our own fate. And actually, um I I don't think we're a post-Christian society at all. I think increasingly we're a post-secular society, and there's a lot of people whether they return to the church or not is another question, but there's a lot of people turning to a spirituality that was pretty foreign to the likes of Peter Berger, who predicted this secularization.
SPEAKER_01And we were supposed to, yeah, as you say, shake off the kind of infancy of man and grow up and grow out of all these things, religion being one of them. And and the the thing that's been surprising over the last few years is these these the series of shocks and of outrage and surprise, whether it was 2016 with elections there, or whether it was COVID or now um Putin invading Ukraine. The the sense of outrage ought to point us to something that hold on, the fact that this wasn't supposed to happen in your understanding of the world might suggest there are more things in heaven and earth than are considered in your philosophy. Yeah. Um so that in some ways who's been shocked most it is the Western liberal secular elite. Right. Because what story are we living in?
SPEAKER_06Like we're we're living in the story in which like the next thing to happen is for me to upgrade my iPhone. Like the next thing to happen is not the threat of thermonuclear war. Here we are, though. Like and and like one of the one of the reasons we're kind of in this mess is as the Russians were amassing troops on the border of Ukraine, like all the military strategists were kind of like, well, I mean, it kind of looks like what you would do if you were to invade it, but he can't be invading a country. Because only a madman would do that. And you're like, okay, well, what if he's mad? Like uh only a complete maniac would actually invade a sovereign nation. This is Europe, after all. These things don't happen. And you're like, well, like who told us that we are suddenly outside the script that everyone else who has ever lived on planet Earth has lived by? Because the script says there will be wars and rumours of wars. Don't worry, that's not the end, says Jesus. Matthew. No, Mark 13. There are wars, there are rumours of wars, there's famine, there's pestilence. These things kind of are natural. But we've I don't know, we've been we've been dreaming. We've been dreaming.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I mean I think there's been a sense for the last few years, but particularly when when COVID came along and now this, that um you know, maybe it's sort of my generation and my parents and I suppose my grandparents as well. I mean my grandparents would have lived they lived through the war, sort of were old enough to be kind of fighting in the war. But then we've had this era of sort of 75 years of kind of pretty much peace in Europe on the whole. Um, and then obviously kind of you know uh Cold Wars ended. But there's been this sense that we've a sense that we're just sort of quite complacent, that we've like you said, we've assumed that what we've lived through is the norm, because that's all we've ever known. But the reality is it's not really like that for the rest of the world, and it's not really been like that for most of history. And there was almost like a s I don't know, like a there was a complacency, but almost a kind of a an ignorance and an arrogance about kind of things. So that when stuff like COVID did come along, people were just up in arms because you know, how could this be happening? And a bit like when, you know, when you know when Putin's lining up his troops on the border, you know, Mark heard Mark Sayers, you know, saying the most obvious answer is he's gonna invade someone. But everyone is going, no, that's we don't do that anymore. We've grown out of that. You know, like human it's just not cricket, that's and and that this sense that we'd we as humanity, because we're always moving forward and we're heading towards this kind of utopia, you know, where everyone's gonna progress and get better and better and better. You know, we've conquered nature, you know, and then COVID went, actually, no, you haven't. Sorry. Yeah. And now is a sense of where you've conquered human nature, haven't we? Because we're all getting, you know, we're better people and you know, we're all kind of nice and inclusive, and then Putin suddenly appears and we go, Oh, actually, actually, maybe maybe it isn't like that.
SPEAKER_01And I I think that the thing about ignorance and arrogance is they sort of fit off each other. So if you're arrogant, you don't bother to check your findings, right? You you just go, my reading of the situation, very surface level appraisal, is right because I'm you know sitting in a position of you know advantage. Therefore, my natural assumptions, my intuitions must be true, so I won't bother checking, which then makes you more ignorant. Yeah. And you're less aware of what goes on, and then you're more surprised. And the great irony is that people who are more and more confident of their own ability to see things become more and more outraged when they're surprised. Yeah. Because they don't like surprises. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's one of the things that if you were kind of taking a measure of Western society in the moment, the measure is the level of surprise that we have at these perfectly ordinary events. Yeah. Horrific but ordinary. Yeah. Horrific but formal. And and yes, you know, the the right notes just not necessarily in the right order, right? And and and the the sense of, oh, a hundred years ago we went through this whole thing before, didn't we? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And a hundred years before that. And the the sense as well that sort of um we were reading this article from the Times, I think it was, wasn't it? And it was talking about how this has happened to a lot of kind of great empires. So like Rome kind of got to a point where it was so complacent that it's like, well, no, if Rome can't fall, this won't happen. And then of course the all the warning signs are there, but everyone's just going, it's fine, we don't need to worry about this. And then suddenly it falls. And they were saying that's really what's happened, and what the pandemic and what this war has done has woken us up in the West to the fact that we're actually in a pretty bad place. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And what happened in 410 is you get a North African bishop reflecting on the unthinkable. The eternal city is sacked. Rome, the Western Roman Empire falls to the Visigoths. And and how does an eternal city fall? It's like talk about complacency and talk about like living in a story in which you have an unshakable certainty in in the Caesars and in the Empire. And so the eternal city is sacked, and then what does Augustine do, this North African bishop, is he writes the city of God. And this is actually what knits the West back together again, is actually a vision, a grander story, not living for the city of man, which is the secular age, which is you know the next hundred years. That's that's all you can really kind of cope with on a political, sociological level. And he's like, No, we're we're gonna build a society on living for the eternal, living for the sacred. And lo and behold, you know, over the next thousand years, that's precisely what happens. And and actually, you know, a a an empire that has split into hundreds of mini-states suddenly gets woven back together with a grander vision, like a great story. And one of the ironies is you know, it's Augustine that invented the secular. Because he's basically saying, look, there's a sacred realm, and that's brilliant. And you've got your secular politics, and run along, have your secular fun, that's that's great. And it was it's sort of Augustine that says there is this secular realm. It's it's a it's a gift of Christianity to the world to say, you know what, you can have a you can have a secular space. And the ruler of the nation does not have to be the ruler of the church, and you can keep those things separate. And that's that's brilliant. Of course, what we've done is we said, what? We can have this all to ourselves, and we've like shoved off God, tried to make it all work within like our own resources, and we just we you know it's it's like feeding off yourself. You can't feed off yourself.
SPEAKER_01And that's that and that's the whole point about how introverted and in the introverted makes you sound like I'm saying everyone ought to be extroverted. Like me, they oughtn't be. But how so how turned in on ourselves, curved in on ourselves we are. And there's a great stat that might m is it Matthew Said pulls out in the Times article where he says that in 1950 they asked uh university students, who of you thinks you're a very important person? And in 1950, 12% of respondents said I'm a very important person. In 1990, that's the same demographic, the same question. 80% of people respond, I am a very important person. Yeah. Yeah. Now that is interesting. Why do you go from 12% to 80% and rising now?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then I read that stat and I thought I've read that somewhere before. And it's Glenn Harrison's book, The Big Ego Trip.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Where he's talking about the self-esteem movement and how how that has kind of really taken over so much of education, therapeutic guide to as long as you feel good about yourself, that's really all that matters. And if anything, we are like that's that is that is taken to be an absolute fundamental principle of Western society that how you feel about yourself is the most important thing about you.
SPEAKER_06Positive self-regard is everything. And such that we are the first civilization ever to consider that the problem with criminality, for instance, is that criminals don't think highly enough of themselves. You know, like literally around the world down through history. Everyone else is just laughing at us. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Someone's just giving Putin a hug. Well, did you did you see that poem?
SPEAKER_06There was a there was a woman who was an actress on Twitter, she's got a massive following, and her video has been seen like millions of times, but probably in the ratioed kind of sense. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04This woman was like, oh, President Vladimir Putin, if I was your mom, I would hug you and squeeze you and cuddle you and tell you and call you George. And it's like, oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_06And but but it's exactly that boosterism, it's exactly that unconditional positive.
SPEAKER_01And it's such a failure, right? So the the stats, the more you try to boost self-esteem, as as Glenn Harrison shows in that book, the the less it works.
SPEAKER_06Right. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because the more you look within to find the affirmation that you apparently need to be able to do anything, the less capable you are.
SPEAKER_06Well, if I'm a loser telling myself I'm great, well who am I to say that I'm a loser. Take his opinion seriously. You need you need someone outside yourself to make that assessment and look in. But in some ways it again, it's the success of Christianity that's sort of led to this. It's sort of the the invention of the individual and the prizing of the individual, and the and the in the gospel, in Christ, there's an unconditional love that comes to me, sinner though that I am, right? And so, but we you know we we forget that part of it, and we forget that it's in spite of sin, and we forget the cross and we forget all that sort of stuff. But it's it's a Christian heresy, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01But but so on on the issue of like this combination of uh what Francis Schaeffer in the la I think it's the last chapter of How Shall We Then Live, and he's talking, having done a kind of sweep of history since the Roman times, he then talks about um the 20th century and what what is to come for modern man, right? He's always talking about modern man. And he says two two principles, personal peace and affluence. Right. So they're the two things that we really want. How do you measure a culture right now? You measure it by how good the citizens feel and how wealthy are they. Now, once you put those two things together and you say the people who are wealthy are going to make themselves more wealthy by appealing to the personal peace and self-esteem of their audience or customers, then you have this kind of oh my goodness, this is just gonna grow and grow and grow and monetize well-being. So going to um the I went to I went to watch The Batman on Saturday. The Batman. And I've got lots of thoughts about it, but I won't share them now. The key thing is that I arrived in good time to see the adverts before the trailers. Okay. And the adverts, it every single advert is the same. It's like here's Glenn. He has hair, he's interesting, and he cares about things. He wants a product that works for him. Yeah, right, yeah. And it's like And here's Paul, he wears glasses. He also wants a product that works especially for him. Our product does just that and will for you too. It's like you haven't told us a single thing about what you're selling. Yeah, yeah. But we're convinced that in order for me to find personal peace and self-fulfillment and self-esteem, I must own this because it's on my side and it's working for me, despite realizing that it literally exists to make money for the shareholders. And you don't need it, right? That's you have no need of this. But it's precisely because it's for you.
SPEAKER_06It's yeah, and it's not even what the product does for you more than what it tells you about yourself. I'm special. You know, that's that's what we're really chasing. And that's what the Matthew Side article is all about.
SPEAKER_01Because I'm a very important person.
SPEAKER_06Very important person. And and in the introspective West, Putin comes along and says, Oh great, I'll take that and I'll take that and I'll take that. And what's China going to do it as well?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And so, I mean, we've got this this kind of story then that's grown, in some sense, like you say, out of these Christian roots, but as a Christian heresy, and therefore and we've reached this point now where actually we see that it's kind of failed in the West, and in a way that people weren't prepared for. And my sort of question in the miserable list, well, you know, at when the when the pandemic started, obviously there was all that, you know, it was obviously terrible, but there was this sense of kind of we're entering into a sort of new era now where people are suddenly going, oh wow, like we're we're fragile, we're mortal, not just we might die, but actually, even though we might get through this, like it's gonna trash our economy and all these things, and people, all the things we've relied on suddenly have been swept out from under us. And it felt at that point like actually there's a really good opportunity here for the church to to step in with a a message, and it felt a bit like you know, someone said, Hey church, this is you now, catch the ball, and we went like that and just dropped it because what what happened in the well at least in this country is the message of the church to people in this time of need was wash your hands, yeah, won't you wear a mask? You know, and and we just saw how sort of impotent the Church of England had become, you know, just to name it. Other denominations are available. Equal impotence among many denominations. And I'm not denying that on the ground there were lots of people doing good things, yeah, but when you're looking to the the church of the state, yeah, and literally they've got they're like, Well, we've got nothing. Yeah, you know, and there's a sense as a Christian, I was like, well, this just shows the pathetic level we've dropped to. We didn't even say, hey, why don't we think about Jesus? It's just like wash your hands. Yeah, yeah. And now we're going even more into this, and we've kind of as as we were coming through COVID, reaching the sort of, you know, as we sort of said before, it almost feels like COVID's just disappeared now, even though it hasn't. It's been bumped from the news cycle. It's been bumped from the news cycle. It can't be a thing now. So it was almost a sense of like, well, we've sort of missed the boat as a church on this. And now, of course, this war has come along, and we're saying actually, like, this is a this really is something else again. And so I I suppose all I want to say is that what is the what is it that the what is the message that the church has for the world in this moment when the world's story has failed, what is it that the church should be saying right now?
SPEAKER_06I think in the in the first instance, I mean we like we ran webinars and stuff about your facing your mortality and things like that, and and we saw significant numbers of people engaging, we saw lots of people engaging in online church initially. And so for the for the first six weeks when the the mortality rates really did peak, and it it really was a scary time, you know, eight April, beginning of May 2020. And I think I think people did, and then they forgot. But then you you've you've always got to like work on a ma much larger timescale for plagues, you know. And two years is really brief, and whether it'll be a 10-year thing, same as whether the war in Ukraine will be a 10-year thing. I think I think we we imagine okay, the plague hits and instantly there'll be repentance. The war hits, instantly people will turn to Jesus. Um but I I think historically we need to work on a bit m longer sort of time frame. And I wanna I wonder whether in 15 years we'll look back and we'll we'll see what these results are.
SPEAKER_01But I mean I was exactly the as you just described when the pandemic first hit, I was like, right, whoa, suddenly everyone's confronted with their mortality. Here we go, guys. The church is ready to say, you know, for DOS you are to DOS you will return, and yet we have a message of hope for one who rose from the dead, right? We here we here we go. And it only took maybe three months before the question was not what is your church doing for sort of outreach. It was has this this I concept been put into the framework of a culture war of saying mask or no mask, meet or don't meet? Yeah. And it was like a flattening of the church's response, which meant that responsibility, right, in the face. So the safetyism that we had was the question of will you be safe? Am I tr um can I be st you know, can I trust you to be responsible in this thing because this is about what we do? Yep. It was very much a human issue. Yep. And I think that was what slightly kind of took the wind out of the the church's evangelistic kind of engagement was the politicization of a COVID response. And I suppose in a way the the s the more the the Ukraine situation drags on the more things will just return to normal. And so we do have an opportunity to jump on the failure of the secular West and say, hey guy, did you see did you see how this showed you something you you didn't like and you couldn't cope with and you had no framework for i it it will work on a much longer timescale and actually the the COVID thing is involved in the Ukraine thing is involved in the coming economic catastrophe that will be felt.
SPEAKER_06You know and so on on a long time scale I think that that is what's happening. I also think on in hidden ways um the church is having an impact. You know so I mean Justin Welby was famous for on Easter Sunday 2020 doing the broadcast from his kitchen. Right? Which was also a part of you know the the the chapel was just you know through the door and he was trying to keep to COVID regulations and people like you're just retreating man. You're just you know interestingly at the same time he was volunteering for St. Thomas's hospital he was on the front line of the chaplaincy you know and and the front line of our NHS responses and and and I I wonder if that's symbolic as well of I think you know some of the public messaging um the church has gotten wrong. But I wonder whether actually the church's sort of Sultan light and yeast working through the batch in hidden ways. Again we'll look back not just in 15 years' time but in 150 years time and see yeah the the the impact is on a lot longer time scale and in a lot more hidden ways than we're used to thinking about.
SPEAKER_03So we we were talking a little bit weren't we about these these different types of story um kind of Western story the Christian story and that's kind of something we've been talking about bits today as well isn't it because um we're in the middle of this intensive week or I say the middle we're at the beginning of this intensive week so we've been running these uh weeks we call intensives that we've had is this our third or fourth one now yeah weeks and where we've had people come from all over the country different kind of creatives uh to come and kind of some of them are in the room with us right now um but Glenn today you were talking a bit about sort of story and the power of words um so why don't yeah can you share a bit with us about kind of what you're giving the whole hour again yeah yeah we'll sit back we'll get coffee yeah so um we're thinking in particular in this intensive on about writing whether it's writing to be read writing to be seen i.e.
SPEAKER_06screenwriting writing for dialogue uh writing for actors um so we're very much talking about story and and the power of story um and so I was um giving some some stuff about just the the power of words and I guess one thing that that relates to what we're talking about is um the sword of the spirit is the word of God is a fundamental belief that has sort of woven itself into sort of Western society and politics as well that there's a fundamental difference between the way of persuasion and peace and the way of force militaristic kind of domination and and the pen really is mightier than the sword. And the reason the pen is the pen is mightier than the sword is that there is a spiritual power that goes beyond the powers of the flesh to get get the get the work done. And you know here is Jesus the word made flesh who walks around telling stories is crucified rises up again which is part of the best story it is possible to have because you've got the highest figure descending to the lowest depth in order to save the world forever. You could not have a a story that's on a grander scale and that story has overturned the world and the city of God is triumphing over the city of man as we speak. And all of it is kind of vindicating the the facts that word is primary. And lo and behold you open up the first you know first verse of John's gospel in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. He was with God in the beginning through the word all things were made. So I I think what we're seeing in the world is is a vindication of everything that the Bible says about the word Christ but also the power of words and then as we who love Jesus get swept up into his mission he says run along you tell stories run along you you use words they're primal and they're persuasive and they're powerful and off you go.
SPEAKER_01So that's what we try to do at speak life and people can join us at the at the foundry and uh we got another intensive week further down the road in May middle of May people for five days and uh yeah what is it we uh meet the team catch the vision learn the craft yeah the craft or the craft whichever it is the craft the craft crafty yeah um yeah so thinking about writing I think this week it's gonna be an opportunity for us to as you say we're looking at the different approaches to writing for the different ways in which people will engage with that and so for you to talk about writing to be read and the difference between writing to be read and then writing for someone to see it on screen. Yes and the different skills involved in that and the things that you need to take in into account. And we're gonna look at writing to be heard. Yes and then yeah writing to be um delivered or something I can't remember what it was the last one was. I can check it writing to be continued. I don't know but yeah writing to be or not to be that's the question that's the question. So it's two Hamlet quotes in one speak easy. I hope someone's keeping score of it that's me.
SPEAKER_06Yeah yeah but yes we yes we we pressed into a little bit about the there's a difference between you know spe spoken English and and written English. And I think we've all we've all read Christian books that sound like we've been preached at yeah and we've all heard sermons that just sound like books don't they? So figuring out how to write is a is a big part of what we do. So yeah come along and join us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah it'd be great to uh have you with us and people are gonna apply for the Foundry as well which is our internship program. If you go to uh speaklifefoundry dot is it dot or a dot com and everything speaklifefoundry dot com you can head over there and get some info about how you could apply and not just join us for five days but ten months ten months you can imagine such a thing. We've got a few comments coming in from people um Rory Martin uh good old friend of ours former foundry member yes he said my old history professor Callum Brown smashed that old modernist secularisation thesis into pieces. The church's influence has waned however we are not less but more religious than before good quote well that's a good one that's a good one and then I think Josh Bailey was kind of affirming what you were saying Glenn he said yes long game evangelism so perhaps ball not dropped because many local churches were getting on with it. Yeah. And I think that's probably true isn't it there? Lots of I don't know but maybe a bit of pushback here Glen I think you said you know kind of things getting kind of back to normal at some stage. Christoph Keating said if by normal you mean skyrocketing prices and empty shelves dual due to fuel shortages then yes everything will be normal.
SPEAKER_05Yeah yeah famine's coming we've had war and pestilence.
SPEAKER_03But I wonder though whether the the danger is that um so so at the moment that isn't normal to us. But we we would very quickly sink into a place where I mean the danger is these things do become normal. I mean we've kind of said they have been normal throughout history but we it's not so much when I say they become normal maybe that's not a helpful word normal but um to be expected to be expect yeah so you go there's a war over there. You know, to the point where we just don't really care anymore. You know it's just we're getting on with our lives over here. You know oh you know do we become kind of numbed to these things so that they don't wake us up anymore and we do fall asleep again. Maybe that's a danger.
SPEAKER_06Oh yeah. Constantly 'cause we're I mean we're we're constantly kind of drugging ourselves with the dopamine hit. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well that and that's the other thing is it's just how bored you are by Oh. Is there any other news about the war? Right. Any con like go on give me more videos. I don't care if you fake them for me.
SPEAKER_06Just you know give me give me some other and that sort of um titillation and s you know. That and that's what that's what's I I think what I'm most afraid of with the Ukraine situation is not that we get bored of it but that we get excited by it. And I I I see us all trying to get excited by it. You know Jean Baudrillard talked about after 9-11 the thing about 9-11 is that everyone watched and we were excited by it. And there was a how dare you you can't say that 3,000 people died. And he just came back saying but you were weren't you were excited by that and and he like like it's a horrible truth about humanity but we are and I'm I'm really nervous about how excited we are when you say what do you mean by excited though not because people aren't going like who kind of like a trip to Alton Towers or something like that like there was there was a video that proved that that turned out to have been from 2014 in the Russian invasion of the Crimea where people were throwing Molotov cocktails at at one tank and even I think Ben Wallace the defense secretary kind of retweeted it even though it turned out to be um you know from from eight years ago. And people were really retweeting stuff like that um with with great passion and and I think even even buying into the the Zelensky kind of here's the hero and you know I don't need a ride I just need ammo. Yeah um and to the point where okay we sort of cheer him on and well hey and then it seems to me like people will have to check this out because I can't see it on the BBC News website but I have seen it on Twitter but it sounds like the Kremlin are saying look if you accede to these three demands you never join NATO you acknowledge that we've got the Crimea and you you give us those two other you know um regions territories and he's then we will we will you know um retreat we will withdraw. And Zelensky's like no you know and and so and and to what degree might he and others you know get get caught up in you know the excitement of a certain story of the plucky you know the the plucky defenders of of their sovereign state um and you know we we we're all in danger of getting whipped up and really buying into certain myths and certain stories about about how the how life will go. And yeah in s in some ways that takes a bit more depa detachment to figure out oh hang on like are we you know I I don't know what the right answer to this is. Here's you know but if the deal is you give up those three things and a monster like Putin who has been a war criminal I'm pretty sure gets what he wants I would say that's a good outcome actually it that that's it's a terrible outcome but it's the best of a whole bunch of really bad outcomes some of those outcomes being thermonuclear war. Yeah um and so I I do I do worry about the I do worry about the excitement that we have invested in the story of heroic Ukraine I'm all for heroic Ukraine I'm all for heroic Zelensky but in some ways I I think you know that could be a real Achilles heel as well. Now what's that done to the comments?
SPEAKER_03Well it hasn't quite kicked off just yet but uh sure it will in five four so please don't count any more down we don't I'm sure we're gonna I'm sure we're gonna talk about Ukraine and Russia probably lots there'll probably be lots more opportunities to be talking about this because it doesn't look like it's gonna stop um anytime soon. So I'm sure we will be talking about these topics again. One of the things we started last week was uh a new series though which we started to come into Lent where we were thinking about the Apostles' creed and we were taking it chunk by chunk um and uh we started off with the kind of first clause last week and now we've thought we'd have a look at the second one. So this week we're thinking about the phrase I believe in Jesus Christ his only son our Lord who was conceived by the Holy Spirit born of the Virgin Mary so we're stopping it off there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah yeah um so yeah last week looking at um I believe in God Father Almighty creator of heaven and earth and then now I believe in his son I suppose it's just great in the speed with which you move onto you know the second person of the Trinity. Okay done God the Father right that's kind of what we need to know about him. So let's jump into um the stuff about Jesus and this I is the is the most extended period of the Creed.
SPEAKER_03Oh massively yeah I think we've got three chunks three chunks on it and we're we're gonna have three seconds out of it.
SPEAKER_01That's how they measured it when they wrote it how many chunks are we getting out of the three chunks on that's partialism.
SPEAKER_06So I think sixty percent sixty percent of the of the words of the creed are just about the thirty three years of Christ incarnation.
SPEAKER_01And and that's the point. So you get those those titles of Christ so there's Lord Son Jesus Christ but then you are straight into his his incarnation conceived by the Holy Spirit born of the Virgin Mary. And so the fact that Christ is eternal in the beginning was the word and that all things were made through him and that he is governing all things by his powerful word for the whole of human history and then we jump straight to the incarnation as the most sort of vital thing you need to know. I think that's just a really interesting point for for any world religion to say okay this is really grounded this absolutely is heaven meeting earth and that's one of the things we want to talk about most of all. Yeah. It's not abstract everything's up the here you know try and deal try and wrap your head around this it's like no let's bring you right down into the manger of Bethlehem or even before that because of course it starts with his uh immaculate conception.
SPEAKER_06So um yeah yeah and and that comparison with other religions is really interesting because like you go to Islam and you say what's what's foundational and when they're talking about Allah you might think about the 99 names of Allah which is like abstract or when you're thinking about Islam you might think of the five pillars which is kind of okay what do we do?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And so you've got a static God and you've got a busy humanity. Or you you know you go to the the Four Noble Truths or the eightfold path of Buddhism and again ultimate reality is a very static thing and but here's here's your eightfold path here here's what you are to do. You come to the creed and it's like you shut up and listen I've got a story to tell yeah yeah and the only thing you're called to do is just believe all right I'm telling you a story alright? Yeah will you just surrender to the story okay and here's a story and it's not it's not busy humanity it's busy God. Like God is the one doing everything. And we just shut up and listen that's that's hugely different.
SPEAKER_01And the things that have happened yeah these things happened and that matters. Yeah and so one of the things we looked at when we think about writing screenwriting is how screenwriting is so much about movement things that move right so cinematography literally means the writing of movement and so when you're watching a true film you're watching actions take place and whether that's very minute almost imperceptible facial expressions that are changing or it's camera movements which are swirling through and you're seeing different angles as you go through it's about events and actions and for the Christian they believe not only in the fact the word is primal but that the word is is entering in and doing things. We talk about what the Lord has done. Right. It is finished right it has been done and these things then can be recorded in other words which can then be shared because we're telling you about what happened and that in the creed just going you know there was a point at which you know the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and Jesus Christ the eternal Son of the Father was conceived in her womb.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01And that was a thing that happened cool story bro it had never happened before and then it happened and that changes everything.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and the the series of events I mean it's just like to wrap your head around what that means then for everything a around it is is so big. It's everything.
SPEAKER_06And yeah like quite often like the creed is criticized for not having a history of Israel for instance and not having a history of the life of Jesus but I think what's interesting about the fact that he was conceived by the Holy Spirit born of the Virgin Mary that that's kind of including like the fullness of his humanity and it's basically saying look there there are all sorts of ways you can imagine that the word of the Father through whom all worlds were made you know could enter the world but he really genuinely entered the world as man and for man as a single cell in Mary's womb joining humanity from the outset. And so like his life is sort of woven into that and what an amazing picture of humanity dignified from the point of conception so this has all sorts of pro-life implications as well you know whenever I'm asked you know why am I pro-life I always say because of Christmas and Easter you know Christmas because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit conceived by the Holy Spirit. Like at what point does Jesus begin his human life? We don't need to guess it's in Luke chapter one it's been preserved in the creeds it's conceived by the Holy Spirit. And so human life begins at conception because Christ's human life began at conception. But that dignifies all of humanity and it dignifies all of humanity right down to the weakest individual because you can't think of a weaker individual than a single cell growing in that womb and yet Jesus joined us right there. And so like it's yeah it's the most epic tale of Jesus Christ God's Son our Lord who joins humanity joins us.
SPEAKER_03Epic story and funny like you're saying there you know our Lord bizarrely for me the word that really let out of me is the word our even in that you know that first sentence we've got Jesus described as as Christ Son and Lord it just struck me that we are we're reading we're saying I believe in Jesus Christ his only son our Lord and it just really struck me the corporate nature of the creed. Now I don't I don't know if the I mean I know that in church we say the creed together but I don't know whether that was always the intention that it was something that was recited with others. But you know we were thinking weren't we about we live in a society that is so individualistic but actually what this is saying is that as I'm affirming what I believe I'm doing it I'm not just saying it's about me and my own personal belief I'm saying it with you. There is this kind of corporate thing going on and there's a present I think as well saying that Jesus is our Lord there's a presentness to that as well like we say he is Lord now. And that I don't know why that's particularly just leapt out of me you know it's a particular seems a bit of a strange thing but I just think particularly in the society we live in where we are so focused on ourselves and you know what do you think and my personal faith the creed is you know kind of blows that up slightly yeah blows it out the water.
SPEAKER_06I wonder whether it's picking up on the um 1 Corinthians 8 language because like in 1 Corinthians 8 from verse 6 Paul says course there are many gods and many lords right like there are like there there are many religions out there and lots of people have different conceptions of God's Lord. But for us there is one God through whom all things came and for whom all things exist and one Lord Jesus Christ through whom all things came and for whom all people exist or whatever. But it it's that really sense of of for us which is definitely picked up in the Nicene creed which is for us men and for our salvation he came down you know it's it's very and it's it's it's like we have a God who doesn't mind being called ours you know like if I introduced you know here's my Emma like I the there aren't very many people who I put that kind of possessive on you know here is my Ruby here's my JJ I wouldn't say of anyone else you know here's my Paul here's my negative weird when you say that to be honest we say our kid in f Manchester we own this this person is one of ours.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_06Well how do we own the Lord? Yeah he owns us right but no but he makes himself ours that's he makes himself so much ours he becomes a single cell in Mary's womb. It's amazing.
SPEAKER_03Well, um lots of good stuff in there, and we could pull loads more out, I'm sure, and I'm sure other people have as well. And we'll come back to that uh next week uh with the next kind of chunk. Um there's a couple of bits that people have commented on. There's a question here, which I think I'll ask the question and then I'll read a few other comments so maybe you can have a think about it. Um there's a question here uh from uh Katie who says, What can we expect from this new global situation that we can be prepared for and respond to as Christians? So there might be a bit there to think about. Um and uh Pete Thorne, I think sponsored you, Glenn said if Ukraine took the Russia offer, what makes us think Putin would keep his word? But he does say you know Glenn's right to challenge us, though, uh, on those things. I think that's that's true, isn't it? I mean that is a concern, I suppose, isn't it? Like we we assume if someone takes those terms we're maybe we're thinking about that from a rational point of view, but who knows whether Putin is working that way. And yeah, you know, if you give in to the bully, does the bully just come harder again? I don't know, but yeah.
SPEAKER_06Well I th I I I I'm I'm not a political expert in any way, shape, or form, but it it it seems like they hold all the cards, you know. And unless other Western nations are going to fight with Ukraine against Russia, which does risk the end of civilization. Um I think I think they are kind of out of options. What what can you do but take such terms? But other people can have other views. Um I'm a bit of a bleeding heart when it comes to these these kinds of things. Um but yeah, I but I I I wonder whether ex especially the excitement around those plucky Ukrainians who my heart goes out to and my heart soars the same as anyone else's heart soars when they see um those who have been trampled upon putting up a fight and s and sticking it to invaders who are killing civilians and what looks like committing war crimes. I have I have all the time in the world, but if we get swept up in that story, we make it more and more difficult to actually take the terms of peace that are offered. Now the way w one thing that's vital to say is that the Christian actually who is called to turn the other cheek, for instance, that is never because the one who struck you is righteous or that you are being cowed into like submitting to a bully. It's actually the it's actually the bigger move, right? It's it's the bigger move to turn the other cheek, turn a turn a face of of reconciliation towards someone like that. Um and and we've got to be searching for ways of of doing that, not of running away from the bully, because you know it's when Jesus says turn the other cheek, he's imagining you're being struck. You could strike back, you could be cowed into you know just being cowardice, just being a coward. But he's calling on something else, something different. Is there a way of loving your enemies that that does not diminish the fact that they are enemies, that does not diminish the fact that they've done evil and done wrong, but that works for peace? And I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I you know I don't know. I don't know. No, that's good. I think that's helpful, you know, to say I think to to say that to take peace is not to say you win, you we we're in the wrong, you're right, um, and we give everything over to you, but actually there is something else in a move that i is is taking a bigger step somehow. Yes. Whatever that looks like in practice, I don't know.
SPEAKER_06But yeah. The thing is, like when I raised the Sermon on the Mount at that point, people are like, ah yeah, but that's so utopian, except that Jesus was in occupied Israel. Yeah. With centurions looking down on him as he said that. When he said that he was not being utopian. When he said that he was he was in a situation in which there was an evil aggressor, and in which everyone was expecting him as Messiah to overturn the Romans and kick them out and and bring about a military victory for them. He was a different kind of hero. We needed we need a different kind of hero.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And do we have any thoughts then just briefly to finish uh so yeah, on the on the question of how does how do Christians respond, what was the what can we expect from the new global situation that we can be prepared for and respond to as Christians? I mean it it seems as though scarcity is going to become a an ordinary part of life which most of us have not been prepared for. I mean, some people have obviously lived in um other parts of the world, and so would say, yes, of course, you go down to the market and those things just simply weren't available. But the shock and surprise when you walk along, you know, the the the aisles of of Sainsbury's or Tesco and there's no pasta, and everyone's like, Oh my goodness, can you believe it? How do we deal with this? So if scarcity and global supply chains and all sorts of things, and maybe the Russia thing goes on for a decade, and maybe the sanctions are still imposed, and maybe there is a complete kind of reordering as nations need to provide a bunch of resources that they used to be able to get from Russia and Ukraine. If that sort of thing happens, the Christian response is to, I think, increased generosity. It provides an opportunity for you to go and you know, if your neighbor asks for your cloak to give him, you know, like to give beyond your means. In a way that when you're living in a time of absolute plenty, that doesn't really have any real I mean it might be nice, yeah, right? Someone might say, Oh, that's very kind of you. You know, thank you very much. Another bottle of red wine, how kind of put it with the cellar, the rest of them. But when if there's n only one bottle of red wine on the street, and it's yours. And it's yours, and you give it to someone else. I don't know why I picked red wine, but anyway. Because it's sacramental. There you go. What's mine is yours. Yes. My wine and cheese evenings become very scarce, but it's an opportunity for generosity. So hardly any common bag I'm down to believe in that. But that's that's an opportunity. It's an opportunity for us to to stay grace with renewed new delight at what we're eating today and what we have available to us. And I think, yeah, genuinely, what's what's a Christian response to a time in which resources are scarce is generosity. It's a way to to step out in faith and confidence that we can love our neighbor in a very active way.
SPEAKER_06And I I I would say as well, um and and that's like all over the New Testament, and it's all over the scriptures. Um and and two other two other things that you would see, I think joy and hope. Um I'm seeing so much more at the moment, um, just this theme of joy, especially in the letters of Paul. And he's he's just he's always working for your joy, for your joy in the face. And you know, Philippians, the great epistle of joy, is is absolutely massive. And then the other thing is hope. There's a brilliant Matt um cartoon, the the uh cartoonist from the telegraph, and it's just got this guy with a massive sandwich board, the kind of way that people on the street corners would say the end is nigh. And uh and his sandwich board just says everything might be okay. And you just get this couple walking past, and the guy turns to the girl and says, Nutter. Yeah, and look, you want to be really countercultural, hope. Like be joyful, be generous, hope, and just keep on preaching Jesus because like people are still meeting him today.
SPEAKER_03Brilliant. Cool. Well, thanks, guys. Um, yeah, really good stuff in there. Um, and uh, hopefully you guys at home have enjoyed the conversation. Uh, do keep the conversation going down in the comment section, and we'll keep chatting with you through the week um and engaging with that. Um, thanks for joining us, and hopefully, you'll join us again next week. Take care. Bye bye.