Hello and thank you so much for downloading episode 408 of the Speak Life Podcast. My name is Thomas Thurrogate, I work at Speak Life, and in this episode, Glenn Scrivener, Paul Feesey, and Nate Morgan Locke discuss the Roe vs. Wade situation, the unborn, and the church. And this is related to an interview that Paul Feesey recorded with pro lifer Debbie Mountford, and there'll be clips from that interview in this episode. We're also going to be releasing the full interview with Debbie towards the end of this week. So look out for that bonus episode. But without further ado, we will get straight into the conversation.
SPEAKER_01Well, hello, and welcome to the Speakeasy. My name is Paul Feezy, and tonight I'm joined by Hello, I'm Glenn Scrivener. And hello, I'm Nate Morgan Locke. Good to have you guys uh with us and good to have you with us as well. Um, we're talking about a pretty uh pretty serious subject tonight, pretty weighty uh thing. We're um talking about the issue of abortion and the unborn. Um, and I suppose what's kind of spurred us to talk about it has been the the articles in the news recently coming out of the States, Roe versus Ways, um, which gives people the right to an abortion uh in the States, a federal law that's been in place since is it 1972? 73, 73. Um that there's been some leaks that it looks like it may be overturned. Um, and that's obviously brought this this topic back out into uh the public square quite quite forcefully. Um and so we thought it would be a th good thing for us to talk about. We do realize though that as three men, we are perhaps not the best place to talk about it. Not that we think that men don't have a any kind of uh a horse in this this race at all. Um but we did think it might be useful to talk to uh someone else on this. And actually, earlier on today I had the pleasure of speaking to Debbie Mountford. Um Debbie uh has a biological sciences degree, she's worked in the corporate world. Um, she's currently trustee of a charity called Just Caring Midlands, which helps vulnerable and disadvantaged people. And she does volunteer work with uh CBR, the Center for Bioethical Reform, where she is a pro-life speaker and advocate. Um and so I got to talk to her today. Uh we had a great chat for about an hour or so, and the whole of that interview is going to be available maybe some point later in the week. We're gonna put it up as a separate thing. Um, but we wanted to kind of look at some of the bits we chatted about today, um, and look at a few clips during this discussion and kind of uh have a think about that too. So we chatted initially a little bit a little bit about what Roe versus Wade was, um, and then we had a good chat about what what this new legislation or the repealing of that might actually mean. And I think we've got a clip of uh Debbie's thoughts on that.
SPEAKER_00Roe v. Wade made abortion a federal issue. If Roe v. Wade is overturned, it will not ban abortion overnight in America. So that's that's something that I think a lot of people have a misunderstanding about. If Roe is overturned, abortion will be completely illegal. It won't at all. In fact, it will just kick the authority to regulate on abortion back to the states, the way it was before 1973, and each state would be able to legislate um as they wish. In fact, I've got a quote from this leaked draft from from Justice Leto. So so what's happened is actually before I read the quote, I'll I'll go I'll go back just a little bit of it in history. So so what's happened with this this leaked draft opinion is over the last few years, the pro-life movement in the States has really been gaining momentum. And you'll probably know of the flurry of heartbeat bills that have been passed, most famously of which probably is the Texas, the Texas Heartbeat Bill, which essentially bans all abortions after a baby's heartbeat can be detected about six weeks' gestation, unless there is a risk to the life of the mother. Um, and the most interesting thing about Texas is that the Supreme Court refused to block that. So that was the first big indication that, oh, hang on, if you're refusing to block this, what does that mean for Roe? Are we going to challenge Roe? But the Texas bill, and again, I won't go into detail, the Texas bill kind of found a little bit of a way to circumvent Roe. It wasn't a direct challenge, and they made it a bit of a civil matter. Citizens are able to sue for up to $10,000. There is, however, another case that's come up in the pipeline just behind Texas from Mississippi called the Gestational Age Act. And this is a direct challenge to Roe. So Mississippi has said they want to ban all abortions after 15 weeks, and they are just using the gestation in 15 weeks as their reasoning. Obviously, Roe states that the states cannot ban abortion pre-viability because it's a constitutional right. So this Mississippi law is a kind of a direct attack on Roe. And this has made its way up to the Supreme Court in a case called Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health. Um, and Dobbs v. Jackson was heard by the Supreme Court recently, it's been adjudicated in private, and the ruling was due to be handed down in June. So the public would have gotten to know about this in June. And what's happened is the draft opinion that's been written by the majority, and or one of the justices who's written the opinion for the majority has been leaked to the press. Um and that went to political. Um and of course, in this draft opinion, the majority of the Supreme Court have voted to overturn Roe v. Wade and another case that came along in the 90s, which sort of further liberal liberalized abortion. So that's what's happening here. Um just as a bit of background. But I will go back and just quote Justice Alito because I think he he summarises this really well. Alito says, in his opinion, Roe was egregiously wrong from the start. Its reasoning was exceptionally weak, and the decision has had damaging consequences. It's time to heed the constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people's elected requirements. The permissibility of abortion and the limitations upon it are to be resolved, like most important questions in our democracy, by citizens trying to persuade one another and then voting. That is what the constitution and rule of law demand. So that's what this is about. It's not about banning abortion, it's simply about returning authority back to the states.
SPEAKER_01So there we go. I mean, I I found that helpful because I think I said to Debbie, my understanding was from what you see on social media, with the repealing or the possible repealing of this bill, um it may it people have made it sound as if abortion just suddenly becomes outlawed overnight. But it sounds like the what will actually happen is that the the decision on what happens will be kicked kind of down the line slightly to the state rather than the federal government, and therefore each individual state will be able to legislate as they see fit, and that will be based on whoever's kind of in power there, which is basically voted in by people. So, you know, you vote for whoever you want because they run on those policies and therefore they enact the things supposedly that you you want. Um, so and that was helpful, I think, outside, you know, you probably know more now because you've been in the states, but being outside of an American context, I don't think perhaps over here we quite have that that understanding of how those things might work.
SPEAKER_03I I think the only thing I sort of wouldn't would know from experience of that is the difference of living in one state to living in another, where you you become very conscious of certain states have laws about what can you know what where you can buy alcohol if it's sort of spirits or fine wine in Philadelphia, in Pennsylvania. That was something that was in kind of state-run liquor stores, and then there were other places as well, whereas in other states the laws are different. So it's only once you move around the US, I think that you get a sense that, oh, okay, the laws are actually quite different here. Um, and and the distinction between state and federal law.
SPEAKER_07But that's always been the case, and I I think a lot of um people on on all sides of the debate have recognized that Roe versus Wade was a pretty crummy decision in law. And like even Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who was another Supreme Court justice, kind of like saw how shaky the case was for making it this federal matter. Um, they they managed to find it within the 14th Amendment, and and it's just it's just not there if you if you read the the US Constitution. But I guess that's an example of how politicized the Supreme Court is in the US system, which doesn't seem to be what the Supreme Court's meant to be. It's meant to be this sort of above politics judiciary that's sort of ruling on what is constitutional and what is not constitutional. But there's such politicization of the courts, and with the leak, um, it's even more so.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, in in the discussion, um, we said that obviously the context is this is coming out of the states, but the issue of abortion itself is a is a much wider issue. Obviously, it's an issue here in the UK, it's worldwide, abortion goes on, and so you know, we we do talk about Roe versus Wade at the beginning of the discussion, but we kind of wanted to widen it out so that it wasn't simply too sort of America-centric. Um, and so I kind of asked Debbie if she could give her sort of best case, you know, what would be her the thing she would say if asked to give a case for the humanity of the unborn? And she said that she would generally kind of work from three foundations, so she would argue from science, from philosophy, and from scripture. And she had these three little sentences that she said she uses it's wrong to intentionally kill an innocent human being. Abortion intentionally kills an innocent human being, therefore abortion is wrong, and that would be something she would kind of talk about there. And so she kind of uh got a little bit into that question then of what are the unborn in this next clip. And it'd be helpful to kind of get a look at that, I think.
SPEAKER_00The biggest question we have to resolve is what are the unborn? Because when we answer what they are, that determines what we can do with them. And in fact, even in the Rule v. Wade opinion, ruled in 1973, um, interestingly enough, the the justice wrote the majority opinion that time, I'll just quote him. He said, if prenatal personhood is established, the case for abortion collapses, for the fetus's right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the 14th Amendment. So even in Roe, they they they agreed that if we can establish fusel personhood, then we can't have abortion. So this question is really key. What are the unborn? And when we look to science, we get a very, very definitive answer. There's not an embryology textbook out there that will tell you that human life begins anywhere other than fertilization. We know that in that moment, a genetically distinct, biologically living, unique, new whole human being comes into existence. You know, ethnicity, gender, hair colour, eye colour are all determined in that moment. And that new human being looks and acts exactly like a human being of that age is supposed to look and act, just as embryos do, and fetuses, and newborns, and toddlers, and preschoolers, and adults. You know, these are all terms that tell us how old that entity is, not what it is, is grounded in its genetics and the fact that it is biologically living and growing. And if you think about it, we know that when we're talking about a baby in the womb, when we're talking about anything other than abortion. You know, we never hear a woman say that her fetus is kicking her, it's always the baby.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Even when we're dealing with medical professionals, when it's a wanted baby, right from the beginning of the pregnancy, it's it's always baby, not fetus. So we understand that at a deep intrinsic level. And science just backs that up. But we do come to this point now of personhood rather than okay, so it's a living human being, we grant you that. But pro-choice argument might be, okay, it might be a living human being, but it's not a person. It's not a living human being with any moral value yet. You know, it's a fetus, not a baby, it's a quant of cells, you know, it's it's it's not a life, it's a potential life, etc. It doesn't matter what language you couch it in. What they're claiming is that abortion isn't wrong because it's not killing, because there is nothing there to kill yet, because it's not a person. But the point with this is that personhood cannot be subjective. We are either a person or we are not a person, and that must be the same for everyone. It cannot be dependent on what someone else thinks of us. So, whatever the line for personhood is, it has to be the same for everybody. Otherwise, we are discriminating based on age and based on what someone else thinks of us, which we simply can't do. And again, in any other circumstance, we know that very clearly. We don't even try and make the argument. But the personhood argument here, because the pro-choice lobby do not agree and the pro-choice worldview have a consensus on what makes a person a person, the best thing they can argue is that we don't know what makes a person a person. And indeed, that was stated in Roe v. Wade, we don't know when personhood begins. But the idea that that's an argument for abortion is false. It's an argument against abortion. Because if we don't know when personhood begins, then we can't take a chance that we might kill a person by aborting someone at the wrong stage.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we I found that um a really helpful part of the conversation there. And actually, Debbie went on to kind of say, you know, this idea of if you don't know if someone's a person, you would actually want to err on the side of caution. So she used the example of, you know, if you're driving along kind of late at night, it's dark, it's raining, and you you know, you come across uh a coat in the road, you know, there's leaves all around it, and you're not sure whether it's a person in the road or whether it might just be a coat. And you think, yeah, it's probably just a coat, but you you don't really know. She's like, Do you just kind of drive over it? So well, you if there was any doubt in your minds, you of course wouldn't. Um, and I think you've used a similar I know I've heard you speak before, Glenn, using a similar kind of analogy about demolishing a building.
SPEAKER_07If you're about to demolish a building and you send somebody through the building as one final sweep, and then they come back and you you've got the TNT box, you're about to detonate, and you say, Hey, uh, is there anyone in the in the building? And they say, I think not. You know, do you detonate? Yeah. And of course, the answer is no. And and and and therefore, and and that's even if the if if the humanity uh you know is in question. But you know, as she says at the start, like scientifically, we know when life begins. You know, there's at fertilization, there is a new distinct member of the human family, and there there it is. And and interestingly, I was watching a video of Anne Farady, um, who was the former head of B Pass, which is the largest abortion provider in the in the UK. Um, she makes the argument that of course life begins at conception. I wouldn't say anything else. All the textbooks say it starts at conception. I just don't think it's a life that is as valuable as lives that know that they are alive. And that's her argument. And and so that's that's I think that then moves on into the philosophical thing. Okay, it's a human, but is it a person? And when you like pull apart and have a breach between okay, there are some members of the human family that are not persons, you realize this isn't it, this is a human rights issue, and it's the greatest human rights issue of our day. And this is why I think pro the pro-life movement should also be championed by the left. It should it should totally be championed by progressives. It is the most progressive cause that you could possibly adopt today, because at the frontier of bringing human rights to the least and the last and the lost, it is saying there is a there is a subclass of human beings who we are not affording rights to, who we are not treating as persons.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and they have no voice. Right. You know, that's that is quite a significant thing that we're we're conscious of amplifying the voices of those who who don't get to to speak. And simply because they're in the womb, we can't hear them. Yeah. Um and when a child is born, one of the first things you realize is you can't hear them. You hear them a lot. Yeah. And um, and uh, you know, um giving giving a voice to the voiceless and speaking for those who cannot speak up is is as you say, is like is a remarkably well a lot of people would say it's a progressive idea, but it in one sense it's it's a fundamentally Christian con concept. Yeah. Um to care for you know the orphans and the widows.
SPEAKER_07And and um and I think you know, I mean I mean infanticide and abortion is a human universal in human societies. Uh it's like everybody has practiced it in pre-Christian and non-Christian societies. Everyone's a practical everyone has practiced infanticide, everyone's a practic, everyone has practiced abortion. Um, so I I think like I'm not really throwing shade by calling it a pagan practice because I just think it like it is a pagan practice. What I think is fascinating is that even those who are for it, or at least want to defend um people who go through abortions, um, have to do so in terms of compassion. They have to do they they it's a pagan practice, but it has to be forwarded in Christian garb. So it's it's about the woman's right to choose, it's about bodily autonomy, my body, my choice, it's health care. It's actually it's actually um forwarded as as a compassionate thing to do, which like it, I mean, there's another sign of the Christianization of our world. Not that we've jettisoned abortion, I wish we had, but but that we've justified it. And so you cannot try to forward your case for abortion without trying to call it compassion, compassionate. I don't think it is. Um, and I and I think as soon as you listen to the voice of the unborn, you recognize that it is not, you know, that there is another voice that you are not hearing. Um, but it's just fascinating that in the culture wars, both sides are trying to use Christian language and trying to justify on the grounds of compassion, on the grounds of rights, on the grounds of female empowerment and all these sorts of things, which are Christian things, but at the end of the day, abortion is not a Christian thing, it's a pagan thing.
SPEAKER_01Um, one of the so the the three things we said or Debbie was saying that she would uh build her argument on would be science and philosophy, and then of course scripture. Um, and so I think we've got a clip here of her giving the sort of Christian angle on it from scripture.
SPEAKER_00We all know these. So Psalm 139, verses 13 and 14, unit me together in my mother's womb. I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Um, I personally love Psalm 51, verses 5 and 6, where David says, For I was born a sinner, yes, from the moment my mother conceived me, but you desire honesty from the womb, teaching me wisdom even there. So David's talking about being sinful from conception. We we we associate sin with human beings only. You know, to be sinful from conception, David also had to be fully alive and fully human at that time. And we're he talks here about God desiring honesty from the womb and teaching wisdom even there. Why would our Lord desire honesty and teach wisdom to something that was not yet one of his children, made in his image? Um, again, Jeremiah, a very famous one, uh, Jeremiah 1, verse 5. Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart, I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. But I think the most powerful one for me is in Luke 1, when uh this goes over Luke 1 and 2, when Mary is visited by the angel and told that she will bear a son, though yet a virgin, and she rushes to her cousin Elizabeth to share the news. And when she enters, we're told six-month-old fetus John the Baptist leaps in his mother's womb. And uh Mary, uh Elizabeth turns to Mary and says, Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. The first person to ever recognize the Lord Jesus Christ for who he was as an as a as an early embryo was another unborn child, the six-month-old fetus John the Baptist. You know, our our Lord could have come to this world any way he chose. Um he came to us through the womb. And that's just so powerful for me.
SPEAKER_03So many passages that we can, you know, that she mentioned there about um that scripture takes us inside the womb and and and and tells us what who is there and who can be found and and the way in which God cares for them, the way in which they are in relationship to God, um in utero, you know, and just just yeah, wonderful to have have those passages. I think the other one um would be is it Matthew 1, um in which uh the Holy Spirit will overshadow Mary.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, so so that's that's earlier in Luke. Okay, yeah. So Gabriel says to Mary, um, yeah, what is conceived in you is from the Holy Spirit, which is passed into the Creed, so now conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary. So it's actually a Christological heresy to deny that life starts in conception because Christ takes on our human life. At what point does he does he like take human life to himself? We don't have to, yes. It's in Luke 1, it's in the Creed, it's at from conception. Yeah, so we know theologically that life begins at conception. You know, I I often say, you know, I'm pro life because of Christmas and Easter. At Christmas, we recognize that Christ. Um, took on our humanity from conception, therefore, life begins at conception. And then at Easter, we we recognize that he stooped all the way to the cross to be the despised thing and the thing that was not on that cross. And he wants us to walk in the way of the cross and to also love those who are weak and despised and the voiceless and that which is not. And I think that's why I'm pro-life.
SPEAKER_03And the little Lord Jesus, how little, right? Like at the point of conception, a single cell is is remarkable. Um and we do get it, we get excited by the there's this the cuteness of the baby Jesus in the manger, but actually the you know the the almost invisible kind of yeah person and yet physically present in a body prepared for him.
SPEAKER_07And therefore the bravery of Mary as well, when like what a precarious position she was in, falling pregnant in a society in which I mean uh ostracism would be the best she could hope for to have to have fallen pregnant while being um engaged to Joseph. Um the fact that you know he's a kind of a stand-up guy and he's just gonna, I'm just gonna divorce you quietly, that that was kind of the best outcome for her. Um if abortion was readily available in Nazareth in the first century, then then like she would be a prime candidate. Like, you know, if the if her beliefs were different, of course she'd be at the front of the queue to sort out this problem that she had. She had an unwanted pregnancy that was going to bring incredible pain into her life. It would very much harm not only her mental health but her social standing. And um, and she would absolutely be granted, you know, an abortion if it was in this country. And uh, yes, the death of Christ would have happened much, much earlier. Um and and yet the the bravery of of Mary to to say what she said and to undergo what she underwent, um, saying, you know, I'm the Lord's handmaiden, may it be to me, as as you've said. Um what a what a model for for women to embrace the, you know, because here we are as men saying that you know women should have their children. Um I think in Mary, you see just the the the wonderful portraits of what it is to be a life-bearer, the courage that it takes, but also the glory of it, you know. Blessed is is Mary and blessed is the fruit of her womb.
SPEAKER_01Well, one of the other things I asked Debbie was to uh if she could comment at all on what she thinks are some of the the strongest or most common objections she hears from sort of the pro-choice side. And she uh I she could have talked about loads of things, but she went for kind of her big four. Um the big four she mentioned were sort of people raising hard cases, so things including sort of rape, incest, or children with sort of life-limiting disabilities. Um, the objection that it will raise the sort of number of back alley abortions and women will die because of this. Um what she called the sort of room-to-toom argument that uh often pro-life people are accused of only caring about children while they're in the womb and they don't care about them when they're they're born and so on. Um, and then the fourth one being, well, it's my body and it's my choice. Now we don't have time to kind of go through all those or get clips from all those bits. Um, so I just encourage you to kind of go look at the video. So Debbie kind of talks through each one of those and kind of things she might kind of want to say in response to that. So encourage you to kind of go and see the main video when that comes out for that there. But one thing I wanted to talk to about really was how do we actually have good conversations with people? Um, because this is such a volatile um subject and it gets people so worked up very, very quickly from nothing. Um, I want to say, you know, to know from her experience, what is it that's what are good things we can do in conversation, what things are going to be unhelpful. So I think we can watch a clip from that.
SPEAKER_00I would say we have to start by finding common ground. Um, obviously, if you're dealing with the you know the hard cases that come up first, we do have to really graciously engage on the common ground. What what what can we both appreciate here? We can both understand that this woman is this woman is in a very, very difficult situation and have empathy with her. What we mustn't do is call her names, minimise her situation, um, you know, turn this around on her. As you say, I believe most women are are victims of abortion as well. That's that's my experience. That's those are the women I spend most of my time talking to. Um so I think I have to assume when I'm speaking, um, I always assume that I'm speaking to someone who may have had an abortion and who may be suffering trauma from that. So we have to go in with that compassionate outlook. And in general, you will be speaking to someone who's had an abortion more often than you realise, because one in four women in the UK will have had an abortion by the age of 45. Um, and that includes a lot of women in our churches. I think we underestimate how many post-abortive women who may be suffering that we have within our congregations. So finding common ground, um, being as gentle and loving and compassionate as we can, and never getting angry about this issue, it's a very, very easy issue to become probably overzealous and a bit too passionate about. And I'm I'm guilty of that, certainly. And I think most pro-lifers who who start out start out with this huge overzealousness for it, and and we all do, um, because it's because when the penny drops and you understand that, you know, we're killing across the world 150,000 babies every day, you know, image bearers of God, that that's an emotive thing. Um, but we have to realize that not everybody is where we are, and we have to meet them where they are, um, we have to meet them in their situation and and speak with compassion and grace. And and really ultimately, it's about trying to lead people to to the Lord and lead people to what the Bible says about human life um and and what's what Jesus did on the cross.
SPEAKER_01That's so helpful. And I I think um, you know, I often think of uh is it at the beginning of John's gospel where it says, you know, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ, and that on these issues we need to speak with both those things. We need to speak with grace and we need to speak with truth. And there's always a danger. The danger is that we always err too far one way or the other, that we we are simply all about truth, and therefore we can be very cold and we don't have compassion and we we don't kind of love people in these situations. So we just kind of hit them with hard facts and could be quite brutal, or we can be so gracious that we never say the hard things um that kind of might shock people into realizing, you know, that penny drop moment. Um, and there is this sort of uh, I think there is that this balancing of of being gracious and and true, you know, and I I think particularly like you say, as well, being aware that even in a even with people you know quite well, you may be having a conversation with someone who has had an abortion or or whose wife or partner had an abortion or a girlfriend or a or a or a daughter had an abortion or something, you just don't know how far it reaches. So I thought it was really helpful that um Debbie said, you know, whenever you talk to someone, you've got to just be aware that if if you're looking at the reality that one in four women by the age of 45 have had an abortion, you may well be talking to someone who's had an abortion. And then I think I said to her, you know, it can even be people people you might know quite well may never have aired this, you know. And it's not even uh in discussion just with uh with women. You know, there they're a you know, it may be that a husband, you know, their partner has had a an abortion, or there's some there's some you know relation there. Um and that she said, you know, what's important to recognize is there will be there's trauma. One thing we talked about, I don't think it's any in any of our clips, was that often abortion is painted as this sort of slightly silver bullet that will make all your problems go away. Um, but I think uh I again I'd have to watch back the video to check, but I think she said um from a a kind of uh research on 800,000 women who'd had abortions, uh, 81% have like increased mental health problems. And I think the instance of suicide was 156% higher in women who'd had abortions, so it's clearly a massive trauma. And I think what's unhelpful is sometimes you do see, you know, when you see these discussions happening, is she talked about the the danger of being overzealous when you are the person who just says, you know, you're a murderer, you know, you're murdering your babies and all these kind of things. Even though there may be truth in what is going on there, that there are children being murdered, this is not the way to have a productive conversation about this issue with people who are themselves victims because women are often sold the lie that abortion is just the thing you go and do, and there won't be any ramifications afterwards.
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SPEAKER_03In the cases where a woman will come forward and say she's had an abortion, often the ones with that get the airtime and and you know that are sort of spread online, it will often be a celebrity or so an actress or a musician who will say, I went and had an abortion, and that has allowed me, that has freed me to have my career. And so as a you know, as a as a woman, this has been a really positive thing for me. And we don't hear the stories of those whose lives have been really broken and and who live with with a sense of guilt or a sense of shame or just regret or just who are haunted by what they've been through. And I think that's again where the voices not being heard, if that is something we genuinely care about, there is an opportunity for the opportunity to allow people to to state that in this in a place where they know they can find forgiveness. And that's obviously the church is gonna be the only place for that.
SPEAKER_07I've I've met a number of women, obviously at Speak Life. We've been speaking on this issue for a few years now, and just going to conferences and and speaking to people who are also working in this area. I've spoken to a number of people whose journey to faith began with well, the Christians were the only ones who were naming the trauma I felt after the abortion. I had the abortion, I was told by everybody that this was the solution, and yet I was haunted by it utterly. And the Christians were the only ones who actually named it as the the traumatic thing that it totally was. And and therefore, you know, it doesn't that give us um pause for thought. Yes, okay, if I'm a preacher and if I if I speak on this issue, a quarter perhaps of the women in the room that I'm speaking to may have had an abortion. That that's that's a sobering thought. But knowing that and tempering what I say with that in mind, also know that that quarter does not necessarily want me to keep silent. In fact, women are far more pro-life than men are. The idea that we should not speak because we're men, actually, it's it's men who are on the side far more of abortion. Women all women want far more restrictions on abortion than men do. Abortion always serves men's interests. Of course it does, because you know, men want to be sexually licentious and they want the problem to go away. And and they are so much at the at the heart of the issue of why women end up in in abortion mills. It's it's men are pushing them there, and it takes two people to to end up in that situation. So I I absolutely think men should speak, I think preachers should speak, I think we should speak knowing that it is such a sensitive issue, and there will be so many people profoundly affected by it. But that doesn't mean that those who are affected by it want us to keep silence because it's it's haunting people, and we we need to name what it is that's haunting people so we can bring the grace of Jesus because none of this is beyond the blood of Christ. There's all the forgiveness of the in the world in the blood of Jesus, which purifies us from all sin. You know, you can you can actually know healing and redemption from from this, and we we have the best news to apply to real sin that really messes people up. And here is an opportunity to speak into a cultural issue, but even more to speak into just personal issues and people whose lives are totally devastated by this thing. And we actually have good news. So you know, I I would I would say to men and to preachers, don't flinch back from this just because you're a man and just because you're a preacher. Um, that there is good news to speak into this.
SPEAKER_01And we talked about that a bit actually. One of our one of the last parts of our conversation was about how we talk about this as the church, because so often many of us our experience has been we haven't heard this talked about in church. It's kind of been kind of just that thing that we don't talk about. It's still quite taboo. So um I think we've got a clip of Debbie talking about that.
SPEAKER_00We're called to speak the truth in love, but the the truth of this is is a hard truth. And I think and I think it's a hard truth for a lot of Christians to grasp as well. Because I mean, if you'd asked me 10 years ago, I would have said, oh yes, I'm I'm pro-life. I, you know, I believe babies in the womb are babies, and I'm a Christian, I'd never have an abortion. Um, I might even have gone so far as to say, but you know, certainly outside of the church, I wouldn't want to impose those views on anybody. And then it would have slipped from my mind and I would have moved on. Um I didn't grasp it, I didn't get it. And I think I think that's quite big within the church. Um, is yes, we're pro-life, yes, we understand that the unborn are human beings, but it's a sort of slip-off issue. Um, and and we move on. Uh, I mean, and obviously what's what the Church of Christ should be about is is is worshiping him and leading people to his kingdom. But we are also called to speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves. You know, we're called to speak for the marginalized and the disenfranchised and the poor, you know, and and probably the most marginalized and vulnerable group among us are the unborn. Um and I don't think that's recognized. And sometimes even trying to be very gracious and speak the truth in love, that truth is still, this particular truth is very jarring. Um and that can be a really difficult line to walk. And you know, as you say, it affects other people as well. I um, you know, I had a man from our church um after, I think he he followed something I'd said on Facebook about abortion. He actually came to visit me and uh and he's he said I can share this story, I'm I'm doing it with his permission. But you know, he he had before he had become a Christian, he had been part of or encouraged his then fiance to to have an abortion, or he'd been part of that decision. And even after his conversion, he hadn't realized that was something he had to bring to Christ, that he was, you know, and and and he ended up in floods of tears emotional in my back garden because of this realization. Uh so this was a man who was post-abortive in a way because he'd been part of it, and we forget about that. Fathers are part of this decision, who had said to me, you know, we do need to talk about this and we do need to talk about this because people don't realize. Um, you know, and I don't want it to be all we talk about, but I think we do need to talk about it. And we need to equip our congregations and our young people to be able to have this conversation. You know, we need to we need to go through the apologetics of this with them and teach people to make the case for life. You know, how many of our young men going off to university or apprenticeships or into the workforce at maybe 18 years old would be able to have a conversation with, you know, an angry pro-choice feminist screaming, My Body, my choice, you know, in a gracious way. Um, so we need to teach them to be able to do that. But I think when you have that penny drop moment, as you did at the breathless conference, as I did when I started looking into this, when you have that lightning bolt of oh my goodness, we're killing millions of children. There are millions, there's between 42 and 56 million babies a year lose their lives to abortion. It is by far the single biggest killer of innocent human life in the history of the world. You know, but more than any war we've ever fought, more than any famine, more than it's amazing the scale of it. And when you when when that dawns on you, and when you do grasp that just because we can't see them, you know, the unborn are still fully human, image bearers, made in the image of God, children. And you look at what the Bible tells us about the value of children and human life and what we're to do to protect them, it's difficult not to want other people to have the same lightning bolt moment. You know, it's really difficult not to want everybody to go, oh goodness, you know. And that doesn't mean that we should be ignoring, you know, the other social justice causes, I suppose, that as you know, as Christians, we want to help, we're called to help those in need. But I find it quite interesting that you just you know just how sort of pushed aside sometimes I think the unborn are. But like you, I I do hope that churches are kind of waking up to this issue and and that pastors will be brave.
SPEAKER_07It's great talking about the the man again, and uh because one of one of the things that I thought when when she's talking about the sort of the mental health effects of being post-abortive, and just wondering, you know, we we put down this um this huge rise in mental health problems nowadays to all sorts of things, including social media or you know, whatever. Um could it could it be that for the last 50 plus years we've been killing our children on an industrial scale? Might that have a massive effect on the mental health of women, but also men, you know, and and and I think you know, hearing that story again makes makes you see that you know, we're killing a million babies a week worldwide. Like if that isn't having an effect on a culture or society, it's like it absolutely must do. And as an as an evangelist, I I find it it can very much help, especially if I'm if I'm preaching a gospel to somebody and they say, What really like God is angry at the world, really? Judgment for the world, why? We're quite nice, aren't we? You know, and like the idea of a God who will judge the world and Christ who has to interpose his own blood and take the fiery wrath of God in our name on our behalf. Does that really make sense? And like I've been able to say a few times, like, well, we do kill a million babies every week. Does that make you angry? And if it doesn't, really should, and if you were God, do you think it would make you angry? We kill a million a week? Are you kidding me? You and and so like the idea that abortion is over here and evangelism is over here. I I I think abortion is kind of um a worked example of the fallenness of humanity and the mess that we've gotten ourselves into by pursuing expressive individualism and just letting our desires run free and to hell with the consequences. Well, the consequences are hell, they really are, and here's a tangible example of it, you know.
SPEAKER_03And the pop so it's the population of England every year, yeah.
SPEAKER_07Um more than Eastpawn every day, you know. Yeah, yeah. Um intentionally, and it's the intentional killing of human life. Um that's just that's just extraordinary, and and you know, it and it does go together with the sexual revolution, you know, and and for Arady in this um uh video that I was referencing earlier, she was the head of B Pass, she was on trigonometry, that YouTube channel, and she was just saying of of course, abortion is we're all grown-ups here, we understand it's a backstop for contraception, it's a form of contraception. We we we all understand that it is a form of contraception. And you know, what what has happened to us since the 1960s is is you know, through contraception, you know, sex and children is in people's, at least in people's consciousness, kind of torn apart. But then conception and actually giving birth to the child is torn apart through abortion, and then there's easy divorce that sort of tears that apart. But that that whole tearing of the fabric of society has been happening for 50 plus years, and uh abortion is right at the heart of it, which is why like so much of the Um reaction to Roe versus Wade has have been people like lots of feminists kind of saying, Well, we'll go on a sex strike then, you know, as though that's getting back at the Christians, you know. You mean you'll you'll try and keep sex within a committed covenant relationship and like because it does like abortion goes together with okay, the the sexual revolution of the 1960s, and the pro-life position really does go together with the sexual revolution of the AD 60s and and Christ's beautiful life-giving sexual revolution that says, Men, you've you you need to be disciplined, and you need to tie yourself to your women and to your children, and let's have this beautiful thing called family. And there's a beautiful vision there. It's and it's not it's not simply about the abortion issue, it's tied up with this beautiful vision for human flourishing, which which again I think it it could and should be a left-wing and a progressive, you know, cause if people if if we could sell it right, you know.
SPEAKER_03But but so much of the difficulty is in the use of terminology which intentionally uh obfuscates, right? It's it's make you're making things so so the simple term pro-choice in a let's be honest, very consumerist culture, yeah, it's like sounds great. I love being able to choose things all the time, being able to choose things all the time. So pro-choice, well you're pro a particular choice because you're keeping an option open, but yeah, that the pro-life position clearly isn't. And as you know, she um mentioned on one of the earlier clips, the use of the term fetus instead of baby, and you know, zygote, and you know, you can you can use all these sort of terms, but but if we're calling a person a person, you know, um, no matter how small, well that really is the case. Um, and even the very term abortion, which is when if we were to talk about aborting something, yeah, we probably, you know, it's used within sort of technical terms and computers, you know, abort mission or something. It's got this kind of like depersonal, like a depersonalized connotation.
SPEAKER_07And they also they they often say aborting the pregnancy or terminating the pregnancy. No, you're not terminating the pregnancy, you're terminating the person.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there's a the a pregnancy can be terminated with birth as well. Yeah, it comes to an end. Just to bring, you know, yeah. Um, and so those I think though the challenge of of not simply accepting the terms that people want to talk about these things, but actually asking questions about those terms.
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_03What do we mean by choice that?
SPEAKER_07Because you could shoot you could choose abstinence and you could choose contraception, you could choose to have the child, you could choose to adopt the child. There's four choices. It's just we're not so keen on the choosing to kill them thing. That's that's the choice. And and and like finish the sentence, pro choice, pro which choice, yeah. Oh, to kill. Yeah, yeah. Killing, killing often seems like a good solution to things, but it really isn't.
SPEAKER_03And and again, when you we talk about um you know, a child or a baby, but as a parent, you talk about your son or your daughter.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And you know, it's the case that sex-selective abortion often, you know, means that that females are much more at risk than the unborn female is is is at risk, and so many daughters have been lost to the world. And so a a feminist issue you would think would be to care about the female babies, um, not just sort of the you know, the protection of those who who were able to get through the birth process. Um but I one other angle I I think that it it's important to uh reiterate that uh Debbie mentioned is in terms of uh the care for mothers uh who've had their baby, who've chosen to have the baby. And whilst I think it's very important for us to she talked about the sort of the uh the apologetic of it, we need to sort of train our our our children to be able to have these conversations in a gracious and and gentle way. We also have so many opportunities within the church, and I particularly did find this in the in the states, so many opportunities to help with crisis pregnancy care. You know, it is simply not true that those who are pro-life only care about the baby up until the point of birth. It just simply isn't true. Yeah, it's an out and out lie that the church does not try to provide support and help for for vulnerable mothers uh in difficult situations. I think that's one of the things that that that gets me so frustrated is in the argument that goes on rather than the people involved. Yes, is that these arguments can be casually thrown around when they're just simply not true. It's not the case.
SPEAKER_07There was a there was a tweet a couple of years back from a a woman who just said, Okay, pro life is can you tell me what you've actually done to support you know the the the life of mothers who've who've chosen to have their children? Um, and it it's had something like 16,000 comments underneath, right? And like, and mine was one of them. I was like, Oh, actually, because uh oh, it must have been two and a half years ago because I was just driving to Cardiff to pick up JJ, our adoptive son, and I was like, um, so I'm just going off to pick up our adoptive son, JJ. At what threshold are you going to change your mind on this? Um, not change your mind about the whole thing, but at least about this tiny like part of the argument that pro-lifers are just pro-birthers. Because it doesn't, it doesn't stack up when you look at the evidence. And there was just an overwhelming response to her, and and she just wasn't going to be moved. Like the the mythology of pro pro-lifers are just pro-birthers, just and it doesn't didn't matter how much evidence was coming up against it. And you it doesn't matter how many times you say, look, there are two and a half thousand crisis pregnancy centers in the US, far more than there are actually abortion mills in in the US. I love this tweet last week. Somebody said, uh, go ask Planned Parenthood if they provide diapers, formula, a crib, rent assistance, food, bill assistance, counseling, mammograms, and continuing education, and then come and tell me pro-lifers are the ones that don't care for children after they're born. Um now, could the church do more? Absolutely. There are there are 2,000 children looking for adoption in the UK. And if churches got behind that, the church, the church could rise up and be more pro-life. And we we should always like rise to the challenge. And if somebody says, you know, you're not really pro-life enough, there should be a part of us going, no, you're right, you're right, we could always do more. Okay, let's, you know, and from womb to tomb, yep, it has all sorts of implications.
SPEAKER_01That's why we need to talk about it. I mean, I think that was that's the thing that came out of that final clip there was uh Debbie talking about how even in churches there can be an assumption that well, people will know that this is an issue, but you know, this guy had become a Christian, didn't even register for him really until later. She mentioned, I think, later on in the discussion, um, you know, someone's saying, Well, it's not it's not an issue we need to talk about because everyone in the church is pro-life and people, women in the church aren't having abortions and things. You know, the need for us to raise this, you know, in the church for pastors to be brave and speak about it, and you know, have not only equip people to think about it and wrestle with it and to discuss it graciously and lovingly, but also to challenge people, as you've just said, to be like, well, what can we do? You know, what do we do in these situations? How do we be the people who are not just yeah, it's all about the room and we don't care about anything else?
SPEAKER_03And and even thinking in less sort of I suppose sort of critical terms, you know, we need to talk about okay, have you got formula or what support is being offered to to to new mothers or mums and toddlers, or you know, the the toddler group, or you know, the churches uh all around the world, and you know, lots of experience of it within the UK, are opening up their doors for several hours a week to welcome in people who are doing an incredibly tiring and challenging role of raising children and looking after little ones, which there's no way that you can sort of undermine that and say, Oh, well, you know, it's leave them to it. It's like it's actually such a significant role, and and to go back to what we talked about with so Luke 1 and thinking about the conception of Jesus and the fact that the our gospel shows us a picture of a a pregnant girl, a young mother, you know what is one of the greatest sort of images that we have, whether you believe in, you know, it's a second uh was it second commandment violation? Oh, right, right. Those those pictures of the the mother and child, Mary and Jesus. You think that is one of the most most profound symbols of of who we are is is a mother with a child, yeah.
SPEAKER_07Um which is why the Catholics are often well ahead of us, the evangelicals, on this issue, and and and and should be praised for that in in so many ways, I think, as well. Yeah. I I think one one thing on that is is also let's let's receive the critique um from pro-choices um about what it what it means to truly be pro-life. Because I think I think that does um I think that does challenge a sort of a lazy pro-life. I think it it it's not so common here in the UK, but I think in the US sort of to be pro-life is a kind of, you know, there's a political camp that you can be in, and it's and it's part of the the package. And when people are challenged to be pro-life, it does in fact mean that you need all sorts of social safety nets, and you need very, you know, you need to weave together um the social bonds, whether whether it's at the state level or whether it's at the charity level, we can get into that argument. But it does challenge us to be far more pro-family, it does challenge us to be far more um well, to redistribute our wealth towards those who are expecting to carry their children. Now, how you redistribute that wealth, you can have that argument, and whether it should happen at a government level or whether it should purely be via charity, but it is a challenge in the same way that um, you know, if you're going to stick to a Christian sexual ethic, then it it also means that your churches need to be far more diverse and far more like the family that they're meant to be. And and you can't just camp out on a pro-traditional marriage, you know, position without it actually affecting like the whole of your church life, the whole of your community life. I think the same with uh abortion. And let's let's at least receive the critique. I think it's unfair in in a lot of the cases. I think they they are sort of firing at a at a caricature when they say that we're just pro-birthers. But let's let's take it on the chin in that, yes, it is a profound challenge if we expect these million babies a week to be born who wouldn't otherwise be born. Wow. What what sort of society should we should we really actually build if we're actually saying an extra million kids in the world? What are we going to do about it? I think, I think, and at that stage, I I think I want to take on the challenge, like, okay, okay, let's really be pro-life and let's really push into that. And it would be it will be a lot more costly than just ticking a ticking a box to say you're pro-life. But that but that cost is beautiful because it means engaging with the messiness of life and helping the least and the last and the lost. And that's where you find Christ in Matthew 25. He's in the least and the last and the lost. So, yeah, let's take that extra burden on because that's that's where the the the goodness of Jesus will be found.
SPEAKER_01I think we've got just uh enough time just to have a few comments. Look in the comments, and the guys on the desk have got some bits for us.
SPEAKER_02We have a great comment from uh Lisa Frere saying, uh, Debbie has such a kind tone and wise scriptural support. I agree, never minimize a woman's situation. My pro-life zeal can get me carried away too, but our ultimate goal is showing the love of Christ. Very good. And then we also have uh Wendy Lomont saying many abortion advocates don't believe personhood is a factor anymore. Some believe abortion is a legitimate option for babies who have been born, including the former governor of Virginia.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. Which again, like infanticide was a human universal, you know, it's like we we recoil in horror from that. Well, that horror is our Christianity speaking there. But for those who point out that the the the birth canal does not confer personhood, they're absolutely right to say that. And therefore, you know, if a if an eight and a half month-old baby can be killed in the womb, then they are absolutely logically correct to say that a six-month-old child can be as well. Um, there's there's no moral difference between like being, I don't know, because you're more you're more moist in the womb. Is that is that why you don't have any rights? Like you're breathing air? Like what what what is it morally that actually makes that difference? And a lot of a lot of people are moving, you know, not a lot, but there are significant movements of people who just say, yes, of course they're human and we can kill them. An Farady says that, and then people like Peter Singer come along and apply that logic because Anne Faradi says if it doesn't know that it's a human life, then it's fair game.
SPEAKER_03She knows that. Yeah. Well, it's such a strange and and that's again to go back to the scriptural stuff where where as a you know we're shown we're shown the unborn, and we're we're we're we're shown them in relationship to their creator, we've shown them you know their that that John the Baptist is leaping in the womb.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um you know, fine you can say you have no this person has no awareness of their of their existence. I can say that about anyone. As long as I don't let them speak for themselves.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03I could put some tape around Paul's mouth and say, This man has no consciousness of like he just yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_07It's interesting that language you use about the the scriptures show us what's in the womb. And I and I think attitudes about um abortion are becoming more pro-life as we're seeing more and more what's in the womb, and the sonograms that we're getting, and the the level of detail and high definition, we're just we're just seeing you sort of see these kids that sort of seven months sit in the womb do that, and then and then you see a baby photo of the same kid who's like seven months out of the womb and doing exactly it's the same kid.
SPEAKER_03And my so my daughter has um uh enjoyed sucking her thumb. That was kind of quite a thing. Yeah. No, we got pictures of that in the womb. Yeah, and just the the the sense of her, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, who she is, sort of becomes comes through in the we we're kind of out of time here, guys, but um hopefully people have found that a helpful conversation. Um, I've just thrown some uh links down into the chat there for some of the organizations that Debbie is involved with, just Caring Midlands, CBR, and Prefos. Um so do go and check those out. Um Debbie also said that you know part of her role is she will go around and kind of she can go and speak to churches and train people up on talking about these things. So she said, you know, if probably the simplest way if you'd like to get in touch with Debbie is to maybe drop us a line and then we can pass on information for you to be in touch with her if you'd like that. Um that'd be great. Um do keep uh commenting down below um and let us know what you think about this issue. Um, it'd be really good to hear from people in churches if you've kind of heard your churches talking on these issues and kind of uh what you're hearing there. Um, yeah, guys, thank you so much for joining us. Guys, thanks for the discussion tonight. And uh we'll catch you again next week. Take care. Bye bye. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_02Well, that is the end of the show. Thank you so much for listening. At Speak Life, we believe that it is very appropriate to speak life into even difficult issues like this one, as long as it's done in an appropriate way and in a way that uh points to Christ, who who underpins, who truly underpins all these values. If you would like to join us uh on the South Coast and be involved in in the production of videos and podcasts like these, you can go to speaklifefoundry.com. We have a 10-month year out program. So you can be a student with us for 10 months and learn the craft, uh, catch the vision and be involved in uh your own uh creative portfolio, and we can we can help you with that. So we'd love to welcome you in person. If you can't give a whole 10 months, you know, completely understandable. You can also come along to our intensive weeks and our foundry unlocked sessions. Details uh on those are on the website, and there are a number of in-person and online options available. As I record this, we are currently halfway through our fourth and final intensive of the year, and it's been a great time. We're learning about telling real life stories, telling stories of people in churches, uh, telling personal stories, documentaries, that kind of thing. So, some really fascinating stuff and about creativity and the theology of creativity. So, we'd love to welcome you in person to some of these things that we do here at Speak Life. Well, that's all from me. As I say, keep a lookout for the bonus episode, the full interview with Debbie Mountford. That's already out on YouTube and it will be coming out as a podcast soon. Thanks so much for listening and goodbye.