Hello and thank you so much for downloading episode 414 of the Speak Life Podcast. My name is Thomas Thoroughgood. I work at Speak Life and I do these little filler bits in the podcast. Got a bit of a treat for you today. We're talking about ecclesial narratology. Do you know what that means? I didn't either. Let's find out.
SPEAKER_02Well, hello and welcome to the Speakeasy. My name is Paul Feesey, and I'm joined by Nate Morganlock. Hello. Hello. Good to have you with me again. We're back for another week.
SPEAKER_04Here we are.
SPEAKER_03Still uh Glenless. We're Glenless this week, uh, but he ought to return. I think he's probably left. Is he back already, I think, on British soil? Back into uh Her Majesty's uh United Kingdom. And uh yes, he should be with us next. Um but this week, what are we going to talk about?
SPEAKER_02This week, well, you tell me, because we're talking about something called ecclesial narratology.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_02Which, you know, I mean, of course, many of us have to be familiar with that, of course. So we probably don't need to say much about it.
SPEAKER_03But for those who might not know, uh ecclesial refers to the church, the ecclesia, which is the word that the New Testament so often uses for the gathering people of Christ. And narratology, I'm not using that in the strictest terms, okay.
SPEAKER_02Is it a word you've made up?
SPEAKER_03No, it's not, it is a real word, and it's the basically it's the study of narrative structure as a kind of way of understanding the world. But the reason why I wanted to think about it is because I think that our view of the church is often far too small, and I think if we get a better understanding of how the church relates to story and storytelling, I think we'll have a bigger view of the church, we'll have a bigger view of what Christ has done, and it will be better for everyone.
SPEAKER_02Brilliant. That's the argument. Okay, so if you clicked on the thumbnail because it said your church is too small and you've rage clicked on it because of a clickbait title we put there, uh stick around because it's still gonna be very, very good. It's not what you thought it was gonna be. Well, maybe your church, I don't know. Maybe your church is too small. Maybe your church is too small, but not in the way you thought. That's right. Okay, yes. Um great.
SPEAKER_03So my opening question then is for people, and please send in um your answers to this. What is your favorite story in like film, television, books, whatever it is, about the church?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so if you're in the if you're watching this now, you're watching it live, start chucking down in the comments section in the chat box or wherever you are. Favorite when you think of a story about the church, yeah, what comes to mind? Put it down, your favourite one. Okay, you even if you're watching afterwards, you can put it in the comments. That's true. And what's yours put you on the spot. Yeah, that's true. I mean I what that and that how yeah, so when I think of something with the church in it, um sister act. Sister Act someone actually mentioned that last week.
SPEAKER_03Uh Sister Act and Sister Act 2. Well, but yeah, that would follow up naturally. Sister Act Two. I don't know, maybe like that. Which r generally focus on the choir. Isn't that the sort of there are a show choir, whoopee gold bird.
SPEAKER_02She sh isn't she like the um the the kind of the the the mistress of some mafioso guy and she's on the run hides in the nunnery or something. Nuns on the run. Nuns on the run. That's another one. Another non non-based uh non-based film from I th I've not actually seen it, but Calvary, isn't it with um um Brendan Gleason, where he's a priest.
SPEAKER_03I've not seen it either, but I think that is a when we asked uh round the the team, uh some people said the Vicar of Dibley. Okay, not on screens for a long time, but it is obviously a very like short story. Yep. Rev, who felt like the kind of updated version of that in like 2008. Certainly more cynical version of sitcom, but um of the age, yeah. Focused on a vicar. So stories about vicars, basically, is what people have picked there. Because you've picked stories about nuns. Whereas I said stories about the church. Which is you're saying that's something else? I'm saying it could be bigger, could it not? More than nuns, more than vicars, a bigger understanding of the church and the story, uh stories which connect with the church. So I'll I'll set out my stall, right? So when it comes to being a reform mythologist, I'm all about story, and I'm my starting point is the fact that the Bible is true. So I'm starting with the idea that that ultimate reality is revealed to us in scripture, and it teaches of us as of a of a God who is three in one Father, Son, and Spirit, and that that God has created all things, and that the Bible teaches us that the world has fallen, and yet into that fallen world God sends his son, and so Christ enters into creation, and then he redeems creation through his perfect life, his death on the cross, and his resurrection and ascension. And so we've thought about that quite a bit over the last few weeks with uh the speakeasies, and my contention is that lots and lots of people in the church, usually youth workers, will watch films and watch TV shows and say, Oh, look, Jesus, there's a Jesus character doing a Jesus thing.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_03Most often when it's someone dying, like sacrificing themselves, yeah, yeah. A sacrifice of themselves for someone else, and we we stop that clip and we go, Look, here's a little picture of Jesus.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_03Now, my argument is that if the truest thing about the world is that God has redeemed for himself a people through his son, right? If that's the the story that all of reality is telling, then when we're looking at stories, we shouldn't just find pictures of Jesus or pictures of Christ or kind of Jesus type figures. We should also find loads and loads of types of church, okay. Pictures of the church or images of the church, which might be a little bit surprising to us because they are haven't got, you know, stone walls and stained glass windows.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. And presumably, just like when you say, when you watch a film and you go, Oh, here's a picture of there's a kind of Christ figure there. When we watch those films, we say, um, sometimes it's a Christ figure and it's portrayed well, sometimes it's a shadow of it, it's a fallen version of it. So presumably we could have the same with the church.
SPEAKER_03There'll be pictures which are sort of like broken versions of it and more accurate versions of it, and like a sort of the photo-negative version of the church, or a kind of this is an aspect of what the church does, but of course it's not everything to say about the church. Right. And that's the challenge with this, is that every kind of metaphor is going to break down at some level. Yeah, of course, yeah. Because it's not the thing. It's not the thing. But it is worth us taking a look through scripture and seeing, well, the Bible talks about the church in so many different ways. There are so many biblical metaphors for the church and what she does. That if we go through those and then we say, well, are there any stories about these things in the culture around us, in film, television, in books, and in whatever else it is, then those are kind of pictures of what the church is, whether they're particularly accurate or not.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Just out of interest, did we I don't know if we've had any comments. Does anyone did anyone chip in with any ideas about um church when they think of church things?
SPEAKER_03Let's see if it plays with it.
SPEAKER_01Well, we'll see. You've got to jump in there. Uh so far we've just had one comment from Tayo Falayi, hope I said that right, uh, who said the fighting temptations.
SPEAKER_03The fighting temptations.
SPEAKER_01I don't know that one.
SPEAKER_02Is that a film or a TV?
SPEAKER_03Sounds like more sort of religious kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_03We can look it up. We can guys can look it up while you're thank you for that comment.
SPEAKER_02So So you said there are lots of different things because of the church is described in lots of different ways. So I presumably you've got some thoughts on that then.
SPEAKER_03I've got a few, but let's go to the first one. I just want us to get the idea of the cosmic view of the church. Okay. So looking at Ephesians 2 and Ephesians 3. And Ephesians is great because if you like Colossians, Paul gives you the cosmic Christ, and so he's showing you just how huge and significant and deep Christ is and in his person and work. So he's beneath and behind and beyond everything, but he's also the one through whom everything's being created and then sort of being redeemed as well. And Ephesians, if you like, shows us the cosmic church instead of the cosmic Christ. So Ephesians 2, uh, verse 10 is very familiar to lots of people. Um, this is basically what we've got. We've got the character of God and what is it that God is doing, verse 10. We are God's handiwork created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. So the church is what that which God has created, and in this sense, created and recreated through the gospel. Um and we've been created for a purpose, right? Now, the other thing that we get in chapters two and three is often we talk about story in terms of intention and obstacle. So your main character, your protagonist in any story, usually has an intention, like they want to do something, and then they face an obstacle.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_03And the bigger the obstacle, the bigger the intention has to be to overcome it, and so the struggle has got to be if it's gonna be epic, you need a really big intention, you need a really big obstacle, and your protagonist is gonna go through that. In Ephesians 2.15, we're told one of the reasons for the existence of the church. This is the purpose of God, halfway through uh Ephesians 2.15. His purpose, that's God's purpose, was to create in himself, in Christ, one new humanity out of the two, referring to Jews and Gentiles. So in cr in in the church, through the work of Christ, God is making a new humanity.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03So when you went to church yesterday, you were kind of participating in a brand new humanity, which is in Christ, rather than the old humanity, which is in Adam. So the new humanity, that's the purpose of God, is to create that. And then 310, this is fantastic because it really does blow your mind for the size of the church. Talk about intention and obstacle. 310, God's intent was that now through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03So God's plan for the church is to hold it up in front of the demons and the angels, right? The rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, and to point to the church and say, See that? That's my wisdom. This is my treasured possession, these are the ones whom I love. This is my glory revealed in grace and mercy through Christ in the church. So when you gather on a Sunday morning, and we've got like a million different things that we're thinking about when it comes to going to church, do we have that kind of cosmic conception of what going to church is? And if you put the church in those terms, what does that say if I say to you, what's your favourite story about the church? Because now you're probably seeing like galaxies and like big kind of clouds of stars and like all that kind of NASA photography photography and stuff. Like once you see that, you're not thinking about the Vicar of Dibbli so much. Now, in a way, you should because it is in those. Yeah, yeah, it's those things, but yet the spiritual reality behind a vicar contending in patience and love with some frustrating parishioners, as you get in Vicar of Dibli or in Rev, that is where God is revealing his his wisdom to the spiritual realm.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So I mean, if we were to get so what might be an example of that in film then, if you were if you were looking for a story where you Yeah. I mean, are we are we I mean I I I might not I mean I'm not hearing all this for the first time, so I'm just trying to roll with it.
SPEAKER_03I never give you any indication where we're going, what it's gonna be like.
SPEAKER_02Um so so if you if you could you have a film where you have someone come in and there's a group of people and they have to bring them together for a purpose and the people are at odds with each other. Is this kind of thing we're talking about here?
SPEAKER_03I suppose in a way you want to say, well, what is what are the stories which have someone like delighting in a thing that they own or that they they've created or they they've worked on in order to amaze like their enemy?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So maybe like uh I I mean I can't think of an actual example, but like some guy coming into like the failed sports team, and you know, the team's falling apart and they're the laughing stock, and yeah, and he you know somehow brings them all together and you know into crafts them into something good.
SPEAKER_03So, in lots of ways, like the celebration at the end of a sports movie which allows the sportsman to win, right? Because often now that sports films aren't so much about winning the trophy as kind of learning the story, right? Right, that you learn a lesson and now you don't care about the trophy. And that can be an interesting sort of story. But if you have a story in which you have this kind of centre point in which the crowds are watching, you've got all the spectators, you've got everything there, and then usually like the trophy, like there's a sense in which the the the shininess of the church is this kind of beautiful thing that God wants to lift high and to kind of demonstrate kind of his victory through the church.
SPEAKER_02Like something like School of Rock?
SPEAKER_03School of Rock, go on, fill us in.
SPEAKER_02Well, so you've got Jack Black who comes in and takes these kids, and like he he's they they have some kind of musical ability, but he crafts them and molds them into something until the big performance at the end in front of the battle of the bands and the parents and perfect go look, these children are amazing, you know, they've done this thing, and yeah, and so school of rock is actually a really good example because it's multiple things.
SPEAKER_03So the church you talked about as a as a choir, right? We are singing throughout, so music as being this kind of focal point. And what does the church do when it gathers together? It worships, it sings songs of praises, it sings spiritual songs and hymns. And so any film which is about like a group of musicians like getting over their struggles and being able to pull it off on the night and perform, like similar, like Jack Black when he does it in. Have you ever seen um I Fidelity? Did you ever see that? I've noticed based upon the um uh the Nick Hornby book, I think is it Nick Hornby? I think it's Nick Hornby. Um, but Jack Black sings Let's Get It On by Marvin Gay, and he's been saying all the way through there's been this fear that he's gonna do this like terrible, terrible job, and his band's gonna be awful. And then he gives this like Jack Black performance, and the crowd are there, and um oh, I can't remember what the name of the actor is, but um is it John Cusack? We should be on the case. I think he's in high fidelity, John Cusack. And yeah, and they they delight because there's this focus point in which the song is sung and it all comes together, and it's a time of celebration and great rejoicing. And so often in the Bible, when you when you have like we talked about last week with the prodigal son, the party, right? The party that the father throws for his long-lost son is a picture of the church. The church is the party venue that the the the prodigal is drawn into and the older brother like keeps himself away from. It's like, well, where's the church in the story of the prodigal son? It it's the party. Yep. So the church is is if you have a story about a venue, like a joyful, wholesome venue, that's a little kind of picture of the church.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03Um maybe we should do some like more of the some more classic kind of images of the church. Yep, okay. That might be an easier one. So uh one of the first ones you could look at would be the church is the bride of Christ, right? So we'll often talk about that. So, where would you want to go if you were thinking about the church is the bride of Christ?
SPEAKER_02Um is it a biblical idea? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03How so? Where are we going?
SPEAKER_02Uh oh man, my mind's gone blank now. Uh, sort of Ephesians as well.
SPEAKER_03Ephesians 5 is a brilliant place. Yeah, yeah. Um, I'd definitely go there. So I mean, nice and easy, really, when you're thinking about the uh cosmic church, the great mysteries of the church. Ephesians 5. Uh, do you want to read out that bit for us?
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, where do you want us from? Sort of uh here we go. Head of the 25, 23, 25. Sounds good. Uh here we go. Husbands love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word and to present her to himself as a radiant church without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. Uh, in the same way, husbands ought to love their wives of their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body just as Christ does for the church, for we are members of his body. For this reason, a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery, but I'm talking about Christ and the Church.
SPEAKER_03So you've got basically Paul saying when you're looking at a married couple, you look at husbands and wives, you're seeing a picture of Christ and the church. And then his quote is to say, Well, let's go back to Genesis 2 and say, for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_03So he's saying before the fall, Genesis 2, you've got a picture of Christ and the church in Adam and the creation of Eve.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_03So the first kind of story we're told in scripture is this romantic comedy about this guy, God says, It's not good for the man to be alone. I'll make a helper suitable for him. And the animals won't do. And so he says, Well, okay, put the man into a deep sleep, and then takes his rib, and from that rib forms the woman, and then the woman is brought to the man, and Adam says, This is now bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman for she was taken out of the man. So one of the first pictures you've got of Christ and the church, or or images of church in the Bible, is as a husband and wife, is as a romantic comedy. So basically, the very concept of a romantic comedy is a biblical narrative of Christ and the church. So when they get together at the end, that is a kind of following the pattern of scripture.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_03So we get blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb in Revelation, and that heavenly city will come out of heaven. Uh sorry, New Jerusalem will come out down from heaven like a bride dressed for a husband. So beginning of the Bible, end of the Bible here in Ephesians, and we're seeing like so much like husband-wife imagery all the way through, like Song of Songs, and and you have it in um uh Ezekiel with sort of and Jeremiah, uh sorry, Hosea. Yep, and um the the image of husband and wife is the image of Christ and church. So when we are looking at a romantic comedy, we shouldn't just go, um, oh, this hasn't got any like Jesus bits in it because there's no one dying in the place of someone else. Yeah. It's like, no, it's got it's got a room a romance between male and female, therefore it's a it's a kind of gospel echoing story.
SPEAKER_02And so when you have like the the classic end of like any sort of um is it um Ben Elton film or Ben Elton, who am I talking about?
SPEAKER_03Um uh Richard Curtis. Richard Curtis, yeah, he did stuff at Ben Elton, though, didn't he? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02They did stuff together. Um it's the airport chase, isn't it? With the the you know, to get the couple together sort of a happy ending, and we know that that's the we know that that's where it should end with the couple getting together. Which is why then when you watch a film like I give it a year, it's such a jarring Does that it's just a spoiler alert for those spoiler alert.
SPEAKER_03I mean it's rubbish belt, it's not worth seeing anyway.
SPEAKER_02So but I mean the the so there's the married couple And basically the the happy ending is he he leaves his wife to go off with the person he you know he he wanted to be with instead of his wife, you know. And and I remember watching that film just being like, ugh at the end, like this is so like just felt horrible. Yeah. You know. So but it's cause I guess because it it does jar against something we know is the and so yeah, marriage story.
SPEAKER_03So no man's Oscar winning film from a couple of years back. I was gonna say with Kylo Wren, but that's not his name. I think his name's Adam Driver normally. Um but yeah, Adam Driver and Scott Johansson, and that is is kind of horrible as an ending because they sort of lie to you that this divorce is like a good thing, is like the happy ending by the what the cinematography, but in fact the bride and groom are not joined together till death threw them apart, they are kind of separated out, and the the our our blueprint for what a romantic comedy ought to be, and really is, and the reason why they resonate with us is the the story of Christ and the church. Nice. So that's the first one is you've got you if whenever you're looking at romantic comedy, there you go.
SPEAKER_02Okay, and I guess it wouldn't I suppose there'd be there'd be bits of that in films that aren't even explicitly a romantic comedy. There is within lots of films you might have the Roman romance element, which so it might not be the full blown yes, the whole focuses on this, but there's bits of it there in some way.
SPEAKER_03That's true, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03Um another one uh we could look at again, thinking about the church as female, is and this might upset a few people, uh, because we haven't mentioned Father's Day yesterday, but is is the church as mother. Okay. So you and I had a really fun conversation about mothering Sunday a few uh couple of months back. And again, another great place to go for this if you're looking for like images of the church, the the idea of the church as mother, you do get it in Genesis 3 when Adam names his wife Eve, for she will become the mother of all the living. And that's not because Adam's like got a black dark sense of humor because he's just been told to dust you are to dust you are to dust you all too, and then his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of living. No, that is Adam basically claiming the promises that were spoken to uh of Eve's offspring and the promised Messiah, verse 15, when God says, I will put enmity between you, the snake, and the woman, between your offspring and hers, he will crush your head and you will strike his heel. So, in a sense, Eve, it is through the through childbirth that the Messiah will come, and the promise is going to come. So through the continued generations of Eve's offspring, whether it'll be then through sort of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and through Israel, which is the kind of Old Testament church, it is that mother church which then produces through the incarnation, as Christ, you know, through the virgin birth, becomes a member of the human race. In that sense, mother, but also back in Galatians 4, and this one's quite helpful as well, is that Paul uses the image of the church as mother to encourage us that the gospel has set us free and we're no longer slaves. Um Galatians 4 basically Paul uh is writing to the church in Galatia, which is thinking maybe they should get themselves circumcised, maybe they need to be under the Old Testament law instead of having freedom in Christ. And um Paul says, in fact, could you read it um just while I do want to go through uh 421 through to uh twenty-six?
SPEAKER_02Sure. Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as a result of divine promise. These things are taken figurative are being taken figuratively. The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves. This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem because she's in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above it is free, and she is our mother.
SPEAKER_03There you go. So again, image of church connected with Jerusalem. We can now think about church as city. Here we're thinking about church as mother, okay, and the ways in which the the church is the place of nourishment and and comfort because that's the place where people hear the gospel. So as we go to church on a Sunday, like we're we're fed by the Word, right? And that's what happens for an infant that goes to you know to feed from his mother is that he's going to feed from there. Now, it's not that the church has its own resources to nourish Christians. No, the resources are all gifted through the word, it's it's the word of Christ, it's the spirit which is taking the word and and enlivening people. But but also that's the place where we find comfort. Like when you're a child and you are anxious and nervous and scared and in pain, you run to your mother. And as Christians, where do we find the place of comfort? I mean, yeah, we obviously we have direct access to God through prayer individually, we don't have to be there, but we really want our church around us, and it's such a wonderful thing when we see that the church comfort and encourage and support its members with the gospel. Um, and I'm sure you know your experience um basically a year ago um was so much of that was having you know church people just come around you and encourage you guys in that way.
SPEAKER_00This conversation went out live on our YouTube channel. You can watch it and all of our other conversations at youtube.com forward slash speaklifemedia. We're on the other social media platforms, just search for Speak Life UK. That will keep you posted. And why not join us when we next go live? You can also email comments and questions to infospeaklife.org.uk.
SPEAKER_02SpeakLife is supported intonely by the generosity of people like you, especially through your prayers. If you'd like to contribute financially, regular ornament donations are much appreciated, and you can do that at speaklife.org.uk forward slash give. If you're a regular giver, you can request access to our Discord server where you can join us for more conversation and exclusive behind the scenes content. Let's get back to the podcast. So you're thinking from a sort of film point of view then, or TV, yeah, kind of what kind of things would pop into your head for that?
SPEAKER_03So, um, you want the photo negative version of like the worst mother ever. Right. You basically need to watch Tangled. Have you seen Tangled? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Mother Gothel. Oh my goodness, that is the she is the mother knows best. Listen to your mum'sy. It's a scary world, Al. She's so bad, right? Because she's like, she's she doesn't actually care for a ponzo, she doesn't look after her. She basically drains her so that she can stay eternally young. And and if you think, like, what does it look like when the church starts to do that, when it starts to feed on its members, it starts to take advantage of its members? That is absolute wickedness.
SPEAKER_02Right, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's like the church is is is meant to care for people, so when the church becomes a place of manipulation, becomes a place of abuse, becomes a place of of slavery, right? So Raponz was kind of locked up. Yep. When the church acts in that way, well, Paul would say, no, you're not asking acting in the way of Jerusalem, you're acting in the in the form of um uh Mount Sinai and bearing children who are to be slaves. That's not the mother you were you're born into if you're part of the church. And so churches which have you know flipped it round and said, No, no, we are kind of and those who are in authority over the church who see themselves as kind of um overly controlling, needing to control their members rather than sort of encouraging them and nourishing them with the gospel, yeah, uh, and tenderly caring for them as a mother does for his child, her child. So, so in those ways, I just think, yeah, we have kind of images of like great mothers and b and and terrible mothers in stories. Yeah. And when we see those, they shouldn't only make us think about our own kind of human mothers, our own uh sort of earthly mothers, they should make us think about the church.
SPEAKER_02Because it are we saying that really is only kind of in the in the mother it's only sort of in mothers we see that, or or is that is it going to be a wider like because you said you know the church might be the place where you go for nourishment, you run to for sort of safety, you know, like you run to your mother. But I mean then may are there can we see the motherhood in things that aren't actually explicitly motherhood in films as well?
SPEAKER_03I suppose that the sort of the nurturing, caring, the provision, the encouragement, the comforts, like that those sorts of roles we would say.
SPEAKER_02I mean, the one that pops into my head and uh is a slightly strange one is um about a boy where his mother isn't in a place to really care for him and actually.
SPEAKER_03Every Nick Hornby film had to be a little bit of a couple of years. That must be what it is, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um and of course the person he goes to is Hugh Grant, yeah. Whereas he's the person he goes to for the things that he's looking for from his mother, who for her own reasons can't beat him at that point. Yeah, yeah. Um but I don't know whether that's yeah, I suppose in a way it is.
SPEAKER_03He's also, I mean, doesn't have a dad, right? So um whatever the what's his name again in that film? I want to call him Miles or something, but it's it's yeah, it is Miles, it is Miles. Okay, pretty sure it is, yeah. And um, yeah, and who's the boy in that in that story? Is it um Will? I think is Will is uh Hugh Garant's character, isn't it? Yeah, um and who like in its kind of about growing up. I think uh in in a really interesting way, that gives us a different picture of what the church is in the conclusion. Okay, because you get that Christmas scene when there's this kind of weirdly kind of collective.
SPEAKER_02The division between these groups has been broken down and they've come together.
SPEAKER_03So you have this kind of ragtag bunch of people, yeah, misfits, these this group of misfits who found each other and they found what the you know, we always you know we talk about our community, it's sort of so important. Well, yeah, it is, but what's the basis of the community? And so when you find films in which the misfits, all the you know, the the the all sorts, you know, the people who don't fit in when they all find each other and find unity, as they do in like School of Rock and you know, so many stories where these weirdos and you know, these the people together. That is basically a picture of what of what the church should be. If you go to like um uh where would it be for uh a list of the disciples, you would basically you're looking at a group of like funny looking people, like a a uh it's an odd group, isn't it? Someone's shouting at the laptop right now, Mark 3, 13. Yes, very good, very good. So that like list of people, these are the twelve he appointed, verse 16. Simon, to whom he gave the name Peter, James, son of Zebedee's brother John, to them he gave the name Boandages, which means uh sons of thunder. Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James, son of Altheus, Thaddeus, Simon the Zealot, he sounds like a fun guy, and Judas Iscariot who betrayed him. So the gathering of the people, it's not like these are like the cream of the crop of you know Galilean society. That the the church is always kind of marked by this, you know, this this group of people. You are the you know the salt of the earth, as Paul talks about the church in um 1 Corinthians. You know, not many of you are wise by human standards. Um so so there is a weakness, and there is is the somehow this group of people is the place to be. And so many films sort of say, Oh, we're a bit weird, aren't we? Like we're we're not as cool as those guys. Think about the Breakfast Club.
SPEAKER_02Outsiders and stuff, yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, you've got you take the like the tribal nature, the clicky nature of like American high school life. Every like American high school film does this, right? Whether it's Greece or it's it's high school musical, like you pull together from each of the different groups and you say, somehow, this can be a community, like glee, when they had that, you know, was uh that feels like a lifetime ago, but yeah, there's something about this is like a a little picture. The reason why you like this, glee again, another one with the singing, right? Or pitch perfect, like you have these so that we delight in the group of oddballs, this ragtag band, who sing together, who gather together and who somehow kind of make it work. When you're seeing those stories, you're seeing a picture of the church.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_03And so when you look around your church on a Sunday morning, uh we said the the grace uh together as part of the service yesterday. We don't do it every week, but like when you do it and people kind of look around, some people don't like it. Oh no, I don't like eye contact. And when people do it, and you go, You we are a weird bunch of people, aren't we? And yet we are apparently the manifold wisdom of God that He wants to show off to the heavenly realms. So that I think gives us such a bigger view of what the church is. Um I mean that there's there's a few more we can we can get into. I don't know if there's a particular kind of picture of the church you're thinking.
SPEAKER_02Oh, it'd be nice to do we want to just see if there's any comments first on what anything we've been saying. Is anyone chimped in or is people saying that?
SPEAKER_01Uh we've had quite we've had one other person, and I've also looked up what the Fighting Temptations is, if you can go with that. Uh so the Fighting Temptations, this is directly from the Wikipedia page, is a 2003 American musical comedy film directed by Jonathan Lynn, written by Elizabeth Hunter and Saladin K. Patterson, and distributed by Paramount Pictures. The main plot revolves around Darren Hill, played by Cuba Gooding Jr., who travels to his hometown of Monte Carlo, Georgia as he attempts to revive a church choir in order to enter a gospel competition with the help of a beautiful lounge singer and childhood friend Lily, played by someone called Beyoncé Knowles. Never heard of the whom he falls in love. Through the choir's music, Darren brings the church community back together, all while seeking a relationship with Lily.
SPEAKER_03Well, there you go. That was all the bits, all the things. And it's in the church. It's in the church, it's got Beyoncé Knowles, whoever she is, Cuba Gooding Jr. Yeah. So so it's in pictures of the church, stories of the church, which have that kind of that culmination, and so often, right? And maybe this is going a bit off topic on it, but it's my topic, so fine, right? But we talk about like films often have need to have a kind of a ticking clock, right? So you establish fairly early on in the film that there is like gonna be a uh a high school dance, right? Sure. And that's gonna be like the focal point of the film, or it's a Christmas movie and it's like Christmas is on the way, and so we're ticking down to Christmas and everything, and you kind of need that because it gives you real narrative structure to have this kind of grand conclusion in which all the things kind of come together. Now, one of the things that the church gives you is well the church gives you tells you what time it is. So Leviticus 23 is the Lord instituting the feasts of the of ancient Israel, and so they've got like you know, the the Passover and the Pentecost and and Day of Atonement, all those things are all put into the church calendar because people need to know what the time is, and we need to have these focus points to help us kind of remember the story of the gospel as we've spent time thinking about with the the liturgical calendar. And so again, it's like great whenever there is this kind of narrowing of the options, right? As the deadline looms ever closer, it ramps up the narrative tension and it gives us an opportunity for a great celebration. Um and the wedding supper of the lamb is where we're all heading. So it fits for that as well.
SPEAKER_02Did you say we had another comment? Someone had said something.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, we've actually got two. Um, so Sam James on YouTube says, That hideous strength, Lewis's depiction of a totally imperfect, unimpressive looking group of very, very different people that turn out to be the headquarters of the force that will save the world. Um, and Cal Morrison uh on Facebook says, I feel like a lot of dystopian movies, insurgent or maze runner trilogies or TV series like the 100 or The Walking Dead, etc., depict the community of salvation from what the perceived problem is. The new world, the new humanity, so on. It plays into what the world sees as the problems, be it the system, the government, the climate crisis, whatever, and what the solutionslash salvation is.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And they want, and we want that that that collective, we want that group of people. And and there's a really interesting thing when you have an ensemble story where the protagonist is kind of a group of people rather than just being one individual, is that often with a lot of our stories, we have the the protagonist's internal struggle and then their external struggle. And the question is, as they go through their hero's journey or whatever you want to call it, as they go through the three acts or the five acts, do they successfully deal with the outside world? Extrinsically, right? Do they deal with that and do they manage to cope with intrinsically what is their personal kind of character issue? And if they're able to overcome their character flaw as they engage the world around them and as they sort of navigate their way as a as a hero through a kind of hostile environment, that's kind of the most kind of satisfying narrative structure we have. Once you have an ensemble, like the Avengers or anything like that, the key thing is will the team manage to get on with each other for long enough and well enough in order to be able to work together to fight the external threat. And so much of what the church are the churches that we are all part of are gonna face as a challenge, is we need the gospel to be the thing that unites us. We can't be we have to be one body. We can maybe look at the body as a image of the church. We have to be the one body in order to witness to the watching world. And so it's it's not a question of like, oh well, we'll deal with discipleship and then we'll deal with like evangelism. No, it's like as the because they never get like it's not like the enemy are gonna pause in a in a great scary kind of action adventure and go, oh, can you guys just sort out your differences and then we'll do it? No, it's like as we work together and as we serve alongside one another, we are going to be forgiving one another in love, forgiving as the Father forgave us in Christ.
SPEAKER_02So Okay, nice. So do you want to talk about the body then?
SPEAKER_03The body, where do we go for the body, Paul? Corinthians? That's it. 1 Corinthians 12, absolutely brilliant passage. Um and again, this is like a really familiar image of um of the church that people have. Uh, we'll often use it for you know thinking about our spiritual gifts or our differences and the way that we kind of need to work together. Uh so if you could do from verse 12 to um well, wherever you like, Paul.
SPEAKER_02Just keep reading it. Finish the Bible to the end. Uh just as uh so yeah, verse 12 Just as a body, though one has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ, for we were all baptized by one spirit so as to form one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free, and we were all given the one spirit to drink. So the body is not made up of one part but of many. Now, if the foot should say, because I'm The hand I do not belong to the body, it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. And if the ear should say, Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body, it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact, God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm. Um so yeah, that's a very kind of uh popular image of what the church is, to say that the church is the body, and we've seen it in other passages. Um, you know, in Ephesians 5, it refers to you know each one cares for his own body, and the body is is the the church is the body of Christ. Um and you know, when Adam and Eve, when Eve is first made, uh from the rib of Adam, Adam's looking at this and going, This is my body, right? You are bone of my bone, and and the two shall become one flesh, the act of union. Um, but obviously here in in 1 Corinthians, Paul is talking about the kind of the the fear of the body of the church working against each other, yeah, and so different gifts being kind of raised up as though like everything was supposed to be this uh and everything was supposed to be an eye or everything was supposed to be a hand, and yet Paul says, No, no, you need all the parts of the body, and they are different, and they're different for a reason, but they aren't designed to kind of work together, so um stories about bodies, it's actually quite a difficult one to kind of get your head around at first because I think we're like, Oh, are there stories about bodies? But actually, there are quite a lot of them, and I think because they they feel like they're low stakes, it's like a single person trying to or a single individual trying to use their own body in a particular way, but it's very dramatic.
SPEAKER_02Yep, so um so something like 127 hours, is that the one? Yeah, so that's the the rock climbing. So there's a guy who gets his arm stuck, yeah. James Franco gets his arm stuck, it's based on true story, isn't it? Get his arm stuck between some boulders, yeah. Actually has to hack off his own arm in order to survive.
SPEAKER_03And and the the drama is just in playing that decision and that struggle. I don't know, I've not actually seen the film, but but in terms like that seems to be the bit that everyone mentions about that film. It's kind of the main idea of the rest of the film, isn't it? Really, like and it's the the point is to say like for the good of the rest of his body, right, he must cut off a piece of his body. Yep. And if we're thinking in terms of the church, like what is it like to lose parts of the body, to lose members of the church for you know for all sorts of different reasons, right? Is a very dramatic and significant thing. And so if you have to choose to you know cut off a part of the body, that's a big deal. And but you're doing it for the the good of the rest of the body. Um and even in a less dramatic way when someone's leaving a church, as in you know, they're moving away or whatever it is, they we feel that sense of longing, we feel that sense of loss when someone goes out because we we really miss what they they they gave to us as a body, um, and in the same way as if you you know were to lose one of your arms, um it'd be quite you know real nuisance, you know.
SPEAKER_02But good for guitar teaching.
SPEAKER_03It would might change things quite dramatically. You could just do the the Jimi Hendrix with the T thing, but yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so I mean when you think of a film like that, yeah, there's a very obvious sort of body thing.
SPEAKER_03I mean, are there other things where you would kind of go so there's two films by Darren Aronofsky, which were like a a sort of partner partner films, which is The Wrestler starring Mickey Walking Walk, yeah, and then The Black Swan, which had Natalie Portman and someone else in his name? I forgot it's not I can't remember. It might be Mila Kunis, but it's but basically they're they're films, they're body dramas because you have it's very much about these two characters' physical bodies and the training they have to go through and the kind of punishment they put their bodies through. So um, yeah, they're kind of very like there's lots of scenes of like them in like badly lit bathrooms, kind of trying to kind of like bandage up wounds or like put body parts back into it. Yeah, yeah. Another one I thought of was um in in Kill Bill with uh Uma Thurman, um the bride. Uh she when she kind of wakes up and you have this long drawn-out thing where she's been like she's had a severe head injury, yeah, she's being sort of comatosed for months on end. And then she just looks down, she says, Wiggle your big toe, or something like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And the drama is like she's trying to gain control over her body again. She's incredibly kind of fragile and has to regain her strength. And there is something about the the church coming under the under the control of Christ and and coming under the the Christ as head who gets to decide how we use our body, how we we act as the church, which I think is a an interesting idea as well. Um but yeah, so Kill Bill, that's a church film, uh 127 hours church film. They're all church films. Basically everything's a church film, is what you're getting at here. But but they because our vision of the church ought not to be limited to what secular culture would love it to be limited to, which is this tiny portion of the of the week for a strange tiny proportion of the people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And the scriptures say no, you need to like the church is the treasured possession, right? That's what God says about Israel when he takes them to Sinai. Though the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a treasured possession. And this maybe like we need to sort of wrap up or whatever, but this this might be a good place for us to land. So we're thinking about um treasure, right? You think about I was thinking about this the other day. Like, if you're the treasurer of a church or like a maybe even like a local sports team or something, um you are the one who treasures. Like, I am the treasurer. I have treasures that I treasure.
SPEAKER_02Sounds like it should involve more sort of chests of gold. Yeah, it does.
SPEAKER_03I imagine maybe that will be the next speak life. The speak life feature film will be called the treasurer, and you'll be like, oh my goodness. He might just be, you know, working doing the finances for a local cricket team, but he is the one who treasures things, right? So um, yeah, you get a brilliant picture of the the treasured possession of is is Israel, right? And again, they are a bunch of basically a nation of slaves who've just been brought out by by the Lord, but and so Christ kind of leads his people out through the Red Sea and into the wilderness, gives them the law, and then he takes them and sort of sets them in the promised land. So um I wanna I last week I wasn't here because I went to see the UK premiere of Pick Disney Pixar's Light Year, which is based upon uh an action figure from 1995 film Toy Story. Don't know if you heard about that. Um Toy Story is one of my favorite franchises, all three films, and um and what's brilliant about that first one is the way in which Woody um is Andy's treasured possession, and so you can tell Woody's Andy's treasured possession because he has Andy's name like marked on his sole of his shoe, right? And so then when when Buzz comes along, we eventually see that Andy's like love is is too great a thing simply to be poured out on Woody and on Mr. Potato Head and on Rex and on Slinky Dog, like that Woody like gathers other sorry, Andy gathers others in as his treasured possession, and it takes Woody a long time to come to terms with what bringing in bars means, right? And that's kind of what's happening in Acts is the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews like, what do you mean that Gentiles are part of this too? So there's that kind of the the the increase or the zooming out to see the size or the the the grandeur of God's uh concern for his people, drawing people from all every tribe and tongue and nation to be his treasure possession. And that's just such a wonderful, I think, image of what what the church is, right? We are the same when we gather as the church because we hold up our shoes and we say, Look, I am inscribed with the seal and mark of the gospel in the spirit, and as are you, I am you know a son of the most high because of the work of Christ, as are you. So together we are the church together, and we find our unity in being those in whom the Father delights because of what the Son has done. So it I think wherever we can recognise that's probably the right way, recognize the beauty of the gospel story in the culture around us, with scripture as our guide to see whether this is like you know, a photo-negative version of the story or what the limits of this story are, but just to have a far grander view um of what we've been called to in the gospel and what being part of the church is.
SPEAKER_02Great, cool, yeah. That's been really interesting. I hope um you guys are home. Uh well, I imagine when you tuned in, it wasn't exactly what you were thinking you were gonna get, but the church is too small.
SPEAKER_03Well, is your church big is your vision of the church bigger?
SPEAKER_02Big vision for the church, yeah. Uh well, hopefully, guys, you found that really uh helpful and encouraging. Um, do chip in on kind of the comments and let us know maybe other places you can think of um films and TV shows where people can see the church in. Because I often people do chip in things after the show with ideas, and we're gonna go, oh yeah, that's a really good example of stuff. So and let us know. Um, yeah, maybe start exploring some of those um those pictures of the church and where you can find them. Um yeah, great. Cool. We'll wrap it up there.
SPEAKER_03That'll do.
SPEAKER_02Thanks for that, Nate. Guys, thanks for joining us. Take care, and we will catch you again next week. Bye bye. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_00Well, there we go. Hope you enjoyed that conversation. As always, you can get in touch with any questions or comments at infospeaklife.org.uk. That's an email address. I I used that joke last week, didn't I? So thank you so much for listening, and we will be back with more speaklife content next week. God bless. Goodbye.