Well, hello, thank you for downloading Speak Life Podcast episode 453. Today we bring you an in-person interview that we recorded in the studio with Glenn interviewing Phil Knox from Evangelical Alliance, talking about his new book, The Best of Friends. Choose Wisely, Care Well. That's your f for your friends, that is. So I will hand straight over to Glenn and Phil.
SPEAKER_04Hello, I'm Glenn from Speak Life. We try to see all things with Jesus at the centre, and I've been so looking forward to having this chat with Phil Knox about friendship. Phil, why don't you introduce yourself to us?
SPEAKER_01Hi everybody, my name is Phil Knox. Uh I uh work for the Evangelical Alliance. I'm a uh missiologist, uh speaker, and author. Uh I'm married to Danny. We've got two boys, Caleb, who is 10, who's love languages football, Josiah, who's four, who's love languages fighting, um, and live in Birmingham, part of the leadership team of a local church there, um, and love talking about Jesus and friendship.
SPEAKER_04You love talking about Jesus and friendship. Um, why do we need a book about friendship? Can you tell us how bad it is, especially in the West? Yeah. And we might get into how gendered the problem might be, and especially for men. But let's let's start with in modern day Britain, let's say, but I'm sure it's emblematic of the the rest of the world, yeah. How bad is it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think I think we're facing a loneliness epidemic at the moment. I'll go that far as to say. I would say uh statistically, warning three men say they have no close friends. Um 40% of young adults, supposedly the most connected generation in history, say they always often feel lonely. Uh I was on the we launched this book uh a couple of weeks ago, and I was in the taxi on the way to the launch, and I said to the taxi driver, we're talking about my day and his day, I said, Tell me about your friendships. And he said, You know, I've only got two friends in the whole world. I think this is a really uh timely conversation. Uh also the pandemic has had an impact. So again, statistically, during the pandemic, um, one in 20 to one in fourteen people in the UK said they always often feel lonely. So there's been a real increase, I think, in this. I think for some social distancing did mean social isolation. Right. Uh, but I think we are more connected than ever before. But that has led to a whole host of issues around loneliness.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I have friends. I can point to hundreds of them on this little app that I have. Yeah. Um but yeah. What what's the difference between that kind of a friend and the kind of friend that you you want us to have?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think quantity is no substitute for quality. And I think what what's happened to friendship, I I don't think it's necessarily exclusively because of social media. I think at its best, social media is brilliant for connection. But but I think Facebook and others give the illusion of friendship. And so what's happened is we all have limited relational bandwidth and capacity. Okay. And I I think we live in a world that says you can have it all. So often what we do with that limited relational bandwidth and capacity is we kind of spread it across a far wider circle than we actually have the ability to really invest well into. And so one of my deep encouragements is to be intentional with a few people and disproportionate in the way we invest our time in terms of a few people rather than just kind of let friendship happen to us. So I think I think you you fall in love, but you make friends, and I think we've lost a bit of the art of uh really investing our energies well.
SPEAKER_04All right, I want you to help us with making friends then. We'll we'll think about how you maintain friendships, which I think is another huge issue that people have. I was just at a university last week doing a a week long of talks with students there, and it's so easy to make friends there. You're just constantly with a cohort of people who are all interested in the same stuff that you're interested in. You've got so much time. I mean, they all they all sort of moan about the essay crisis. I went to that kind of university where people have, oh, I've got an essay crisis. And they've just gone on their gap yard, and you know, and now they're now they're into student life and and yet they've got an essay crisis, but you're like, oh, can you be back here at seven? We have free pizza. Yeah. And they s turn on a dime. They make time. And they have time, and so they're living together, they're with a cohort of people that are just like them, and and I'm constantly saying to them, you know, when you leave university, if I manage to see my very best friends three times a year, that's a good year. Yeah. And they are shocked at that. Yeah. So we'll we'll figure out how to maintain friendships in a second. But I first asked you the question: how do you make friends?
SPEAKER_01So I I've discovered uh with a little bit of help from lots of reading, um, that one of the key factors is there are there are people in life who are called connectors.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01And so the chances are that some of your friends you have because you've been introduced to them by a person. So as I was writing this book, I came across this concept of connectors. And I thought about my own relationships, and I've got a mate called Andy. Um I've I've also come to the conclusion that most Andes are pretty alright guys. Just disproportionately so. So I tried to call our second son Andy, but my uh my No, just through my phone list. My wife couldn't live with a baby, Andre goes. Yes, yet no, no. Yeah, no, no. Definitely. Anyway, I've got a friend called Andy K. And he's a proper alright kind of guy. Uh but we also I also realised that my friend Andy has introduced me to a disproportionate amount of my friends. So he is a connector. Uh so I so I think if you when it comes to making friends. Isn't this in the mafia? They have connected. There's a connected guy. Godfathers, I think they're called.
SPEAKER_03I'm known in the five bars, I'm a connected guy. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01So um so so these think of connectors, but so so find a connector is a good start, starting point. Find those people who are good at introducing you to others. But I also, as I began to reflect on this, thought about God as the great connector.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01So I think an underestimated step when it comes to making friends is to pray. I really do really do think that. Okay. I think that God is the great connector. And so I even inspire in as an inspiration for this, really, saw Jesus at the cross. So the son of God, as he is dying for the sins of the world, has this presence of mind to say to John, here is your mother, and say so to his mother, here is your son. He is building relationships, he's making friends, right?
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_01As he is dying for the sins of the world. And and so I think something that we underestimate in that moment is that. I think the second thing I'd say if you're trying to make friends, is is look under your nose. I think sometimes God brings people into our life, whether it's kind of on a on a school run or people we go to lectures with, or there's people who just we have the opportunity to rub shoulders with who God brings across our path. And and then find within that people you have stuff in common with. So sociologically, there are kind of seven pillars of friendship. And and in terms of connecting with people, you know, I think about the my my best friends. I've got kind of four, five, six, seven of those pillars. Find out more about those in the book. But things like um, I mean, some of them are pretty basic, like speaking the same language and um and having similar kind of hobbies and similar taste in music, those kind of things. And the more those things increase, the more chances you've got of connecting with people. So I think I'd say I'd say those things. But I think the final thing I would say is be someone who asks really good questions.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01Someone said to me once that popular people aren't interesting, they're interested. And there's something about unearthing within people that that common ground, finding those connection points. And and then I'd say when we find those connection points, being vulnerable, opening our heart up to another to develop those, to take to take it from that kind of that superficial friendship into a real depth and um building those over time.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so now I can see why it might be a gendered problem because you just mentioned vulnerability, and as you introduce- siren went off. And a siren went off as you as you introduce your children, one's into football, the other's into fighting. Right. None of them are into vulnerability. No. So it's not it's it's not so it's certainly not valued as a masculine trait in our society. So how do you as a as a man process that and and and w why do you think more broadly that struggling with friendships is more of a male problem?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I I to some extent I I'm not I'm not completely sure on the kind of gendered on the gendered thing. But I think what I have observed is that that we can that the vulnerability thing is absolutely key. And it's it's almost I think I wonder whether for for men, what I what I do know is I I've I've I heard someone talk about at parties, you can observe this, and this will kill you every time you now go to a party because you will see it. So uh women when they speak are more often to speak face to face. So you look up, you go to a party, it's absolutely good, you watch the party. Right, right, right, right, right. They are absolutely perpendicular to one another. But men, yeah, you can draw, you could get your protractor out and see the angle as angle has changed. Yeah, and it's kind of shoulder to shoulder, side by side.
SPEAKER_04And looking at the same thing together, shoulder to shoulder.
SPEAKER_01Right. Right, and so and so there's there's something about that. And so I think for men, I think what I've observed is I have to find things. So my best mate is called ads, and we've known each other since we were 12, um, been through thick and thin together. But ads, you can't say to ads, let's go for a coffee. It just doesn't want to sit face to face opposite with me chatting. But and that's not just you, Phil. No, it's not, it's it's no well. I hope not. If I find him in a coffee shop opposite to another man, I'm gonna go deep into their eyes. Yeah, but give him weight training or football or let's go on a road trip somewhere, yeah, and we are away. And so I think for me, I don't think necessarily vulnerability is the is the problem. I think it's finding those activities where you can have those vulnerable spaces. And so if I think about my moments where I've really deepened friendships with someone like Adam or or other or other friends, you know, it's road trips to Scotland where we go and jump off waterfalls together. But but not just jump off waterfalls together, it's the moments in the car on the way home when you sat around the fire light to go in, let's let's talk about life and let's be let's be brave enough to ask those questions and open our hearts up. Um and so so yeah, so I think it's I think it's the the nuances of the way we're created in in that.
SPEAKER_04So, how do we maintain relationships then? We've we've broken the ice and we've been interested rather than interesting, and we've we've done all that great stuff. Yeah. And I often find it's it's it's quite easy in friendships to take the first step and then the second step is quite easy. So, you know, l let's go for a walk, let's go for a coffee, um, and then maybe do you want to come over for a meal? But I often find that the third step. Like, okay, how now how regularly, you know, you're saying good goodbye at the door. We'll see you in yeah, in X amount of time. Yeah. Um how do you how do you process that that journey from the initial contact and starting to make a friend to actually maintaining a deep friendship?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I read this great quote which said that kind of friendship in your thirties is is basically saying to people, con saying to your acquaintances, uh, we must catch up soon. That is friendship in your thirties. I think the first thing I'd say is we need to be really Christ-like, we'll come back to that, in in the way in where we invest our relational capacity. So, with some people, I really do think it's okay to say see you soon, and keeping a kind of almost distanced relationship because we have limited relational capacity. So, what what I've discovered is is that the leading scientists of today, funnily enough, agree with the Son of God in terms of where the amount of relationships we can maintain. So a leading anthropologist called Robin Dunbar found that you can have about 150, you've got we've all got capacity for about 150 relationships. Those people who we'd feel comfortable seeing in a pub, we wouldn't know where we stood in terms of them and they and they in terms of us. And what's interesting, that 150 numbers, fascinating. So average Christmas card list in the UK, 148. Uh, average wedding size, 146, average size of a village in 1086, 150. 700 years later, that was only 160. There's something about our relational capacity because of our brain size around about 150. But then Robin Dunbar tracks in the circles and he says you can have about 12 to 15 good friends. Then he says you can have about three great friends and you can have one best friend. And as I'm reading this, I'm like, as maybe Jesus knew more than more than the average human being, right?
SPEAKER_02Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_01So I think one of my first encouragements in terms of how to how to develop friendships is first of all, think about who we invest that time in. Because you can't have it all, you can't give the same amount to those 150. If you do, you will have 150 shallow friendships. So, but with those who you really want to be intentional with in those kind of three, in your inner circle, in your huddle of your of your 12, the way to grow those, I would say there's three key ingredients. The first is time. Time is like oxygen's a friendship. You you can't you can starve the most fiery of infernos of oxygen and it will eventually die. And you can you can starve the greatest friendship of our age of of time and it will die. So I think that's first thing time, and we we can talk about how time has changed. I I don't think we have less talk about that spec to that student conversation. We don't actually have less time than our forefathers and foremothers. We're not working as many hours, but but more of us are working. The nature of work of our work has changed, which means we're using our relational muscles more at work, which means we're exhausted, so we can't have those relationships, you know. We can't give ourselves in the same way that we used to be able to. That's that's a fascinating side point. Um, I'd say the second thing to really develop friendships is presence. So, you know, I I don't know about you, I hated Zoom church and Zoom meetings because you just weren't in the same room as people. This this is a way better interview because you and I are sat in the in each other's presence rather than me being on a screen and burning them, right? Um and the third is is is that thing of vulnerability, which we've which we've touched on. Um you we can we do need friends to go paddling with who we just have that kind of superficial left. But but there is no and and and there's no substitute vulnerability, and that vulnerability is something that needs to continue beyond that initial breaking the ice moment. Uh the the minute Adam stops being when I say, Have you had a good day? and he says I'm fine repeatedly, that that will in the end lead to going back to the surface level friendship if we don't continue to to exercise those muscles.
SPEAKER_04But you do have to ask a man six times how they are. Yeah, side by side, side by side while you're staring at the guacamole and watching the football. Yeah. Um before they'll actually actually tell you that. Um I'm I was really struck um early on in your book um by the fact of a real dearth of literature and courses and that kind of thing. I mean, in church life there are courses for everything. Yeah. And there are loads of courses on marriage. Yeah. And there are courses on leadership, which is not the most fun of the ships, is it? Is it Phil? Um we we like the friendship more than the leadership.
SPEAKER_01Um and we have money courses and we have um uh I think it's friendship is the ship that I most want to say, at least the line you're looking for. The most fun to sale. It has the meter to it. The editor try tried to persuade me to take that up, but I really liked it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no, it's absolutely right. What do editors know? That's funny story. When I when I wrote 321 a while back, um I had an edit on my my third draft, it came back to me, and this is my this is my first book, so I didn't I didn't understand. In the margin, she just she just wrote outstanding in capital letters the whole time. Outstanding, outstanding, outstanding. I was starting to think, I'm a genius, this is my first book. I'm just I'm just knocking this one out of the park. And then I recognized what she really meant was you were meant to footnote this this statistic. That is still outstanding. So you were meant to fix up this dog's dinner of a paragraph. That is still outstanding. And it was the biggest come down in my life. Anyway, um editors. What are they known? Um, quite a lot, and we're very grateful for them. Um but the uh the idea of courses, we have courses for everything, but I've never come across a course for friendship. Why is that? Is it is it because that's like teaching grandma to suck eggs or or like what it's honestly a mystery.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Because I I think it's the most important, least talked-about relationship in the world and church. I think I'm really encouraged actually, since doing this. I maybe I'm maybe I'm noticing more, but I actually think it's something that God's doing. But also hopefully they're being inspired by seeing me post relentlessly on social media about it. Loads more churches have started preaching and teaching on this stuff. But previously, when I started writing the book, I asked pastor after pastor, have you ever preached on this? I asked Christian after Christian, have you ever heard a sermon on this? And the answer was almost always no. And I I think I I don't know. It's an utter mystery, but I hope, I really hope, one of the missions behind this book, and what we're trying to do as part of the my work at the Evangelical Alliance, is to bring this conversation front and centre, not only in the church, but also in the world. Yeah. And been fascinated to see that that in in in the broadest possible sense, the world's really interested about friendship and the opportunities I've had to talk about this widely across the across the media have been really encouraging. And and they even want to listen to a Christian on this, which is amazing. Yeah. And so I do, I do think, but I think that I think there are 10,000 books with the word leadership in the title, fraction, with friendship in the title. Let's let's let's take this seriously.
SPEAKER_04And especially the church needs that because if you know, I spoke to Andrew Bunts last week, and and um people can check out that interview. And so here's a guy who identifies as a same-sex-attracted Christian who is committed to the way of Jesus and celibacy, uh, you know, and you know, no sex outside marriage. And when I asked him, what what should churches look like if they're going to affirm, you know, this biblical view of marriage, and the first thing he says is obviously friendship. Because we we, along with the whole world, have eroticized love in this, in this quite perverse way. So that the only the only sense of um if I if I use the phrase same-sex love, as I as I said to Andrew last week, if I use this phrase same-sex love, people are like, Oh, you mean a gay relationship. Whereas, like prior to Freud, everyone was talking about, you know, David and Jonathan did not have a sexual relationship at all, but they loved one another, right? And and we just don't have that category because we've eroticized everything, and so we we might put on marriage course after marriage course, but we've got no place for not the eros love that C. S. Lewis spoke of from the Greek, but where's the place for the philia love? And fascinatingly, in the four loves, C. S. Lewis said, if you want to understand eros, it's the image of two people gazing at one another. If you want to understand philia, it is two people shoulder to shoulder, yeah, looking at a common horizon, and out they go. But it's it if we are going to de-eroticize the idea of love, if we're if we're going to hold to what I think is a really nourishing, life-giving vision for sex and relationships and singleness, we've got to put friendship front and centre, don't we?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and we I think we've idolized uh in our culture and possibly of the church, romance and marriage. Yeah. Uh at the expense of a friendship.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and so many and so many men, if you were sort of uh to ask them, you do you have a friend, a lot of them would say, Well, does my wife count? You know, like can I count that? And yes, yes, your wife counts. Yeah. But if that is the only friendship that you have, where we we are really in a in a in a pickle, um, to put it mildly. Um so all right, let me let me put something to you. In your in your book, you talk about radiators and drains when it comes to friendship. Can you just explain what you mean by radiators and drains and I'll ask you about it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's come from my dear mum who uh said that there were some people in her life when she spent time with, they just radiate. You we know those people, right? You're one of those people, Glenn. It's been great to walk along the seafront with you today. You radiate life, it's been life-giving spend time with you, but there are others who you spend time with who it's like you leave their presence and you're like, Where's my soul gone? Right? It's like you've been sucked dry of any life. And and and I think we have experience, most of us, of spending time with those kind of people. My my point in the book is that you we need both. So we need people who bring us life and who we leave their presence, and our hearts are full, and our souls are singing, and you give them a hug, and the oxytocin is pumping through our veins, and we're like, fantastic. But there are other people who who actually we we give the gift of friendship to. So there is something in our individualistic world, when you read the chapter on the power of friendship, it's really easy to read that and go, I'm gonna live longer because of the friends. So I make the point in the book, it's better to eat kebabs with friends than salad on your own because you will live longer with better relationships. But that's not just for your benefit. So when you're friends with someone, it's not just that you get the gift of life from them, but you get to give the life to somebody else.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And so one of the sacrificial Jesus says there is no greater love than they that lay their life down for their friends. There is something powerful about us giving our friendship away to sometimes to people who who maybe need it that they need our friendship more than we need their friendship. And Eve, so I I it's it's I think often self-indulgent and not sacrificial to just only hang out with radiators. Who are the people in our lives who we could give our time to? Who it's a genuine gift, it's genuinely sacrificial. But my my point of the book is you need a balance of radiators and drains. Um because if you yeah, it g it becomes disproportionate if you have one or the other.
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SPEAKER_04Cool. I got two questions about that. One is, is there a danger then of me considering myself always to be the radiator when actually I don't understand the the gift that this friend can be to me? And if I and if I kind of label them as the drain, then I am the magnanimous one reaching down. And I and I won't be attentive and I won't be interested enough to find the ways in which they've been placed in my life for a reason to bless me. And they they they will be the surprising radiators in my life. Yeah. Do you see what I'm getting?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I am and I and I think it's uh I think it's also about your heart in this. I think we we know whether what heart we go into relationships with. I would also say I think that our people aren't just fixed as radiators and drains in our life. Yes. Often they can oscillate uh as as l as we go through life, but also um but also genuinely you can have some people who who actually it it changes, that dynamic can of can often change. I guess what I was trying to talk about in the book is that we we we shouldn't become so self-indulgent with friendship and so and play into the individualistic narrative of our world to constantly be asking what can I get out of relationships rather than what can what can we give. I think the Christ-like way is to ask what can we give to to our friends, not just what can we get out of them.
SPEAKER_04Completely. So it's uh it's out of fullness that we share, and perhaps that's a fullness that we shouldn't be seeking from from that relationship, because at that stage it becomes a manipulative what can I get out of this? It's actually what can I give that Christ has blessed me with, and we overflow. Um, which seems to me to be a very healthy antidote to the slogan you see on social media, which is cut the toxic people out of your life. And I I I loved the uh the Babylon B kind of parody newspaper. Uh they had a headline a couple of years ago, God cuts the toxic people out of his life, eight billion dead. Which nails nails the problem with that as a slogan. But but are you seeing that that it that there is this sort of cultural mentality that if anybody is draining me in any way, shape, or form or disagrees with me, then cut 'em dead, ghost them.
SPEAKER_01I think I mean I'm not aware of the statistics around it, but I'm certainly aware anecdotally of people who have who've been de-friended, unfriended on on Facebook and other social media platforms because they believe different things, whether they be Christian values or other. I think there is a real tendency to want to feel safe within our own echo chambers and therefore only and to surround ourselves with the media and the people who think the same as us look like us. Um and I think it's a real danger in our society. So uh author John Yates uh wrote an amazing book called Fractured, and he says that most people in the UK say we are more divided than ever before as a as a nation. And I think that we we exacerbate the problem of the divisions in our times by only spending time with people who are the same as us. Um I think it's it's I think there's a richness and a uh and a beauty to friendship being friends with people who are who are different from us, and I think that's what the way God's created us, and there's something beautiful, and we see the the diversity of the the bride in revelation, and heaven if you only spend time with people that like you, heaven is gonna be a shock, right? Because there's gonna be people from every tribe, tongue, background, story. It's gonna yeah, so I think there's something that we're missing out on if we oh if we do that. Uh, and I think there's also something powerful about the church speaking into that because I think you know that church is the only room I'm in where there's people at both ends of the socio-economic spectrum, people of different ages, stories, backgrounds, ethnicities. It's beautiful, it's a it's a it's a a a you know foretaste of heaven. But I don't see that many many other places in society. No, and I think in terms of an antidote to loneliness and a taste of the richness of what life could be, the church has something beautiful to speak into that.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely, because it's embodied and you're just kind of forced to relate to your neighbour because there there they are. And who knows where what they voted in the referendum? Yeah, who knows who they voted on. That's right. And then you've got to, you know, d determine to be the radiator in that position and uh bless them no matter no matter what. But I I think because of the online thing, our lives are so segmented by interest. And so it's it's very easy to go online and find my people. I can find my people, whether they live in Santiago or Sydney or wherever, Seattle, who knows. Um but my people are the people who share the impeccable views that I have, the right views. Yeah. Um, and so we're just used to relating to people who who agree with us. Whereas in church, you're just thrown together with the person who's in your locality and happens to love Jesus, but they could have voted the wrong way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Phil. And again, the the the answer, I tell my children, if you ever don't hear the question in Sunday school or you're not sure of the answer, put your hand up and say Jesus, because 90% of the time you'll be right. But I think in terms of this, again the answer is Jesus. Because I think what I what I've found as I've delved into the life of the 12 specifically, it's a chapter on the 12 in the book, which looks at the the makeup of Jesus' disciples. And my thesis is that seven out of twelve, interestingly, just about a majority, so Peter, James, John, Andrew, uh Philip, Bartholomew, and Thomas, I reckon, knew each other. They were kind of from the fishing community of Beth Saidal when Jesus called them. And then you've got the five who are just curveballs. So I'm fascinated to see the moment when, for example, Simon the Zealot, who would have wanted to kill Romans and tax collectors, was in the same room as a Roman supporting tax collector in Matthew. I mean, I just would have loved to have been there. And I think Jesus' encouragement to us is that first of all, it's great to have friends who you've got stuff in common with. So those seven, you know, they would have been into the same stuff, though, you know, background, language, interests, fishing, all of that stuff. I'm also curious, maybe you could tell me this, Glenn. Why did you choose fishermen, not carpenters? I'm I'm genuinely curious about that. Anyway, he chose fishermen. Seven of that twelve. But then also there's diversity and richness in the other five. And I think one of my encouragements is to think about who are the people who are different. And how do you how do we not buy into the behaviour and narrative of society in deliberately cutting out those people who are different who think differently and being able to embrace the awkward now and again when people talk about their views on political stuff or vaccines or whatever, right? And actually say, I'm actually gonna still be friends with you, even though we think slightly differently. Yeah. Or look differently.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, or look differently, or uh different tax brackets or different age brackets. Like you talk about intergenerational friendships, which I think is such a breath of fresh air. Where else do we get intergenerational? Maybe in the football club, maybe you know, maybe on the terraces, you know, granddad and and dad and and son are all kind of three generations together, sort of. But nowhere does intergenerational like like the church. What are what are what are the benefits of it and and what are the difficulties in forging intergenerational friendships?
SPEAKER_01I think the the benefits are, again, statistically, we could look at the there was a really significant piece of research from the US that looked at what what it is to be a resilient disciple. So it was fact one of my areas of interest is young adults. So this piece of research looked at what makes a resilient disciple of someone in their twenties wholeheartedly following Jesus, going for it. I mean, and some of the stuff is unsurprising, right? It's praying regularly, reading your Bible regularly, going to church, being part of all you know, there's some of the stuff we think you know really these are good markers of discipleship. But one of the key findings was intergenerational friendship, being friends with people both older and younger. And the benefits are it will it will give us a richness and a diversity to our discipleship that will help us follow Jesus more closely and more likely to last the course. That's the you know the benefits are there. There's also something about wisdom and perspective, and so I've got a number of older people, and part of my story is that my dad died when I was 21, and so I've had to find um older parent and grandparent-like figures in my life. No one can replace my biological dad, but I've got this group of older guys who I I need wisdom from. So even just this last week was on the phone to my dad's best mate who um prays for me regularly. Uh he at various points in my life I've gone to I need I need someone who hasn't got an agenda when they're giving me advice around some stuff around kind of work and where to live and those things, and and his and his advice has been invaluable further down the track. His wisdom, he knows me, he he fights for me, he's got my back. Um the the the safety and the um the richness in that is really is really really important. Um but but also I think so for that how how do we make those happen? I think uh it's back to that kind of uh those principles of making friends, I think. But I think there's also an intentionality because we talk about people being under our nose, that those people are less likely to be under our nose. So I think asking ourselves, and I guess to start with, a really good question is who do I want to be like? So it's that kind of that rabbinic tradition that Jesus walked into, the the idea that the discip disciples would want to become like their rabbi. And I think there are there are there is a richness in the church of four fathers and four mothers who are still following Jesus into their later years, and there are people in my church and people I come across, I just want to be like them. I still want to be following Jesus like that when I'm like 60, 70, 80. I want to be alive at that time. But yeah, but I want to be like so. I think, and then saying, Can I spend some time with you? Yeah, you know, can we and not and not in a mentoring capacity, sometimes that's helpful, but actually just can we be friends? Can I come around for dinner? Do you want to come around for dinner? It's vulnerable, right? Can we be friends? And and um and and you know, and going to more practical stuff, you know, I like go our kids sometimes don't stay out, go talk to older parents. What do you do? I'm knacking. Yes, um, and so I think so. I think some of that practical stuff alongside some of the can you tell me about I'm struggling with this relationship, I'm struggling it with this situation at work. Yeah, that's vulnerable.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and so I think but I I would encourage people to invest in both older and younger, but it doesn't have that kind of stuff, even less happens by accident. We need to be really purposeful about it.
SPEAKER_04And but the world is hungering for it incredibly. In our church, we're we're going through Titus in our in our sort of sermon series, and just like Titus chapter two, it's like older men with younger men, older women with younger women, and that passing on of intergenerational wisdom is so rich and it is so necessary in the world. So, like on the positive side of things, uh Louise Perry, who's been on this channel, uh, has just started a podcast called Maiden Mother Matriarch. And she's just noticing that like women have this segmented life stage, and at at one time they're maidens, and then and perhaps if they get married they they become mothers and and then they become matriarchs. And but nobody is offering the wisdom, the intergenerational wisdom of how to make that transition from maiden to mother, from mother to matriarch. And you know, and and so she's kind of offering that because the whole world is has this cult of youth in which you s you cling on to being a maiden the entire time. Yeah. And as and as you age out of being a maiden, women uh find that they they just have no value anymore. And and so what a thing for the church to say, oh no, you've got so much to offer, and you can mother, and and even if you don't have kids, yeah, you can be a spiritual mother. I think that's that's a really positive um sort of example in in the culture of of seeing the need for intergenerational wisdom. But a negative example might be Andrew Tate, which you know, the last time I went into a school, Thomas Thomas was there, we're in we're in Northern Ireland, and I like I was giving this um assembly, and all the eleven twelve-year-old boys were just like absolute Andrew Tate fans and and fiends for for this like misogynist. Choose your father. Yeah, yeah. Choose fathers wisely, choose your intergenerational wisdom. But here are these 11 12-year-old boys, and I I don't know how well they've been fathered, but they're certainly seeking a father figure over here who is just poison to them. And and yeah, in the church we've got we've got the answer.
SPEAKER_01And and the beautiful biblical paradigms are just so, so multitudinous, right? So you've got you've got um Elijah, Elisha, Paul, Timothy, you know, all the way through scripture there's this passing on the battery, and the thing I love about Elijah and Elisha is that that there's that great double portion moment, right? And I think there's something also about older generations wanting younger generations to go further. So there's a spoken word piece in the book called called shoulders, which talks about to the shoulders broad I've clambered upon, to the voices raw that I've cheered us on, and then finish with may our shoulders be broad enough for others to climb. There's something about wanting to kind of pass on that our shoulders might, we we might kind of stand on the shoulders of giants and and recognize that the batter of faith passes on that we might go further than the previous one. I think that's a really powerful message for the church.
SPEAKER_04Now, Phil, you are an evangelist. I'm an evangelist. Um I think we're both noticing that uh it's one thing to say to the church, go and evangelize all your friends, but so often what people say is, my my what? Sorry, uh remind me. Back in my twenties, I think I once had some. Yeah. And you know, I'm I'm about to go to a church to do a series of events over the course of a week. I'm doing 12 different talks, 12 different interviews, and I'm interviewing people from like doctors and you know, like everybody from every single walk of life you could possibly think of. And I remember saying to a to a guy at the at the end of a church service where I was preaching enthusiasm people about the 12 different events. There's something for everybody. And I sort of and and I was talking to this guy, you're like, There'll be something that you can invite your friends to. And he was like, Yeah, that's the problem. Yeah. That's the problem. Well I'm a taxi driver. What's the taxi driver? Well, I'm a taxi driver. Yeah, right. Right. In in terms of I might have two friends. And it's a massive problem in church leadership, isn't it? Like, you know, if your day job is orbiting around church things, then then you've really got to be intentional about making making those sorts of friendships. Um where does the evangelism and friendship thing dovetail?
SPEAKER_01Great. Well, there's a there's a number of caveats before we get to the answer. The first caveat is, and I want to say this really in the strongest possible terms, we don't become friends with people to convert them. Amen. Um we are we become friends with people because we're made in the image of the relational God, and Jesus says to love your neighbour as you love yourself. That's what we are that's why we're friends with people. And I could honestly say, hands-on, hand-on heart, I've got a number of people who I pray for every day to come to faith. If if I was told they would never become Christians, I would still be their friend till death has due part. There is no way, you know, this cancel culture thing doesn't exist if we think people have become Christians. Right. So that's the first thing to say. The second thing to say is how important this stuff is. So myssiologically, what my my job at the Evangelical Alliance is asking the question, how are people becoming Christians? There is almost always, research and anecdote tells me, there is almost always a friend, a neighbour, a colleague, or a family member who plays the most important role on the journey. You know, the events that you and I run, people are there because their friends have invited them to that event. Billy Graham becomes a Christian because Albert McMackin invites him to an evangelistic event and he doesn't get the credit. And we can't all be Billy Graham's, but we can all be Albert McMackins. So that's so the the there is something about the role that is so important. The challenge is you know, you you one of your lines a minute ago was um we talk about inviting people along. The reality is the church isn't talking about that. So J. John's research tells us that 3.6% of churches do any kind of quipping inspiring for their for their church members on how to share your faith and invitational culture. So our my hope is what could that look like if that were 25%, 50%? My guess is many people might, many more people might come to know Jesus. But one of the hearts behind writing this book is that we did a piece of research as the EA and we found that the single biggest reason why people don't share their faith with their friends is they don't have any not yet Christian friends. So, so, and again, the stats here are really challenging. So 46% of Christians in the UK said they don't know a not-yet Christian well enough to invite them to church. On the on the other side, 2015, Talking Jesus Research found that 67% of people uh non-Christians knew a practicing Christian. Just seven years later, that had decreased to 53%. Right. So 14% less people, it's going in the wrong direction. So one of the reasons I'm so captivated by this friendship thing as an evangelist, let alone a friendship enthusiast, let alone a Christian, let alone a person, um, is because I'm I hope that through this in 10 years, 20 years time, there are more people who become Christians because relationship is God's seems to be God's chosen vehicle through which the good news spreads and has done since Pentecost. So there's something about this. So I think how we can do that better, we can simply be better friends and and we can we can uh think about as we as as we would talk about our relational energies, let's also not we we do choose where we where we invest those. One of my encouragements is let's also be intentional about spending time with not yet Christians for the sake of the gospel, not because we want to convert them, but because we do so because that's what Jesus tells us to do and how we were created to be.
SPEAKER_04Right. So you're not saying whack a target on a non-Christian's back. That's chapter 14. Chapter 14 is not plate them with friendship, right? And then ha ha! Yes. It's actually an evangelistic ploy. It's not that. It is from the overflow of the heart. We're radiators, you know. You are the light of the world, says Jesus. So the light of the world, Christ, shines on us. And I love that Isaiah chapter 60. Um, arise, shine, your light has come. The glory of the Lord is risen on you. So the glory of the Lord has risen on you and turns you into a radiator, turns you into someone who shares and we pray they come to Christ. Uh but we love them. We love them nonetheless.
SPEAKER_01And we as Christians should be the best friends of the world. Right. Jesus said, by this people would know that you're my disciples the way you love one another. So there should be something about the way we love one another as church that people go, Wow, in this divided, fractured world, I want some of that.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01But also the way that we relate to not yet Christians, people should go, yeah, I I um whatever they're selling, I'll have some of because I see the difference Jesus makes in their life in the way that they they they treat me even though I'm different, the way that they sacrifice themselves. You know, um my mum died during COVID. Our our our living room looked like Clinton's cards, our our our uh kitchen looked like a florist. We didn't cook for three months. Why? Because because friends were there for us, and I'm sure not yet Christians looked at that and went, that's different. Right. Um and so so yes, I think this friendship thing is is captivating.
SPEAKER_04Yes. That's the word for it, captivating, and I've very much enjoyed uh your book, Phil. It's called uh The Best of Friends, Choose Wisely, Care Well, and uh if you want a copy of this, you can go into a prize drawer to uh receive a free copy of this. It will win its way to you if you are in the UK. Should we say that? Yeah, because we're um We're cheap. On a budget. We're on a budget. Uh yeah, that's a much nicer way of saying cheap. Thank you. Um so if you want to get into the prize drawer for a uh a free copy of The Best of Friends by Phil Knox, uh then please do uh subscribe. Whether you're uh watching this on YouTube or whether you're listening uh on your podcatcher of choice, uh please do g give us a subscribe and if you could share on a social media of choice and just at us, if you can tag uh speak life media, um we're speaklifeuk on Twitter, we're speaklife media um on YouTube, and we're just Speak Life. We're Speak Life UK on Facebook, so um do uh and Instagram, don't forget the Instagram for the kids. I'm more a Twitter guy because I'm a curmudgeon. I'm an old curmudgeon, so that's that's more my bag. But uh we'd love to put you in uh the prize drawer for this. Thank you so much for writing this, Phil. Thanks. Thanks for having us. Thanks for joining me today. God bless, and we'll see you again on the Speak Life channel.
SPEAKER_00Well, there we go. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. I I certainly found it very interesting. It was great to have Phil uh in the studio with us in person. So thanks for coming, Phil, and all the best with the journey that this book takes you on. And just to reiterate what Glenn said at the end, if you do share this podcast episode or the video, the YouTube video, on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter by uh tagging at speaklifeuk. We will see you, we will note that you have done so, and you will be entered into the drawer to potentially win a copy of The Best of Friends by Phil Knox. The closing date is Friday, the 24th of March. As I always say, you're welcome to continue sharing the podcast in the video after that point, but entries after that point will not be considered. And uh I'm afraid you also need to live in the UK to receive a copy. If you live outside the UK, we love you. Thank you for listening to the podcast, but we won't be able to send you a copy of The Best of Friends by Phil Knox. Well, that's all from me. Thank you so much for listening. We have some really exciting conversations coming up, so do subscribe to the Speak Life Podcast on your podcatcher of choice. Apple Spotify. I mean, you know what they are because you wouldn't be you wouldn't be able to hear this if you didn't. Anyway, thank you for listening. See you next week.