The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life. Last week I picked up this newspaper, and my four-year-old daughter asked, Who's that? How to answer her? As an Australian, I'll tell you who that is. That is the single-handed destroyer of Australian dreams, that is Ben Smokes, the one man who stood between Australia and retaining the Ashes. I'm sorry for those who know nothing of cricket. Genuinely, I'm so, so sorry. You should know these things, okay? The Ashes duel between Australia and England is one of sports oldest rivalries. In Test match cricket, that's the kind that takes five days to play, you heard. England have won 32 series, Australia have won 33, and they were about to win 34 until this one man, Ben Stokes, played like Terminator 2, returning from the future to crush all opposition and bring in the apocalypse. Truly devastating, truly superhuman, truly otherworldly. And my daughter asked me, who's that? Well, my daughter is English, I guess. That's what her passport says. Her dad's Australian, her mother's Northern Irish. The girl is confused. I mean, she says yogurt and film. She says vitamins and brine chai. But most of the time she just sounds like Dick Van Dyke. What a lot of bother and no mistake. Lovely jubbly, it's a wind-up, leave it. Um, that's what she sounds like to me, but then that's what all the English sound like to me. Apples and pears up the horse and car, in it, leave it. Um, seriously, that is what you're like, admitted. Uh so how do I answer my daughter? Who is Ben Stokes? I told her the truth. Ruby, I said, that man is your hero. She hugged the picture to her chest and galloped around me on an imaginary horse, saying, Yay, my hero, my hero, my hero. And then she asked me, What did he do? I said, Well, he single-handedly defeated my team. Did we beat you, Daddy? She asked. Do you catch that? The cheek? The arrogance? Typical pom, honestly. Did we beat you? How did how did she know to ask that? How did she know, did we beat you? I mean, what kind of question is that? Did we beat you? Where does a four-year-old get off asking that? Who's we, Ruby? Who's we? I didn't notice you up in Leeds scoring the winning runs. I don't think you made the final 11, Ruby. As we've discussed, you have a real weakness against fast, short-pitched bowling. That's that's why you won't be part of the England setup anytime soon, although we'll see with Den Lee and how he goes. But I hate to break it to you, Ruby, but I don't think you've expended a single calorie of effort in England's cause. So what's with the we, huh? But she got it, okay? She picked it up aged four. When her hero wins, she wins. I lose. Because he is her champion. And what a champion, right? With England absolutely dead and buried on Friday, he single-handedly snatched victory from the jaws of defeat on Sunday, on Sunday, my friends, to raise up his team, his nation, his people. Sound familiar? People want to praise the efforts of the man at the other end, Stokes' partner, Jack Leach. Now, look, I've got nothing against Jack Leach. He seems a lovely guy, a bit sweaty, but lovely with it. Yet at the end, Ben Stokes and Jack Leach needed to score an impossible 73 runs. So Ben Stokes decided to score 76 of them. You know, they used to say that the best doubles pair in tennis would be John McEnroe and Anyone. Well, the most extraordinary partnership in Ash's history was Ben Stokes and No, that's it, Ben Stokes. You see, his Anyone did his best to screw the whole thing up in an inexplicable brain explosion. Jack Leach all but ran himself out, handing the ashes to Australia, when Nathan Lyon equally inexplicably handed them straight back. If it wasn't for that extraordinary reprieve, Jack Leach would be the villain of the whole piece. He would be carved into Ben Stokes' bicep as a curse word forevermore. No, Ben Stokes won the game single-handedly and gifted his victory to an unworthy team. He gifted it to the whole nation. Even though he was out, I mean he was out. I mean, computers don't lie, but that's the thing. It was not a computer giving the decision out on the field. A human umpire had to make the verdict. If anyone was going to stop Ben Stokes, a human, one made of flesh and blood, had to stand against an ecstatic, intoxicated, exhilarated English crowd, and they had to stand against the archetypal hero fulfilling the destiny of the ages. Only a robot could have given Ben Stokes out. Only a machine could have possibly resisted the hero's journey so powerfully embodied in Ben Stokes. And so he hit those winning runs and roared like David, decapitating Goliath and showing us all who really is king. And even as an Australian, I can't help getting goosebumps. It's 1 Corinthians chapter 15, verse 57. Thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. This is what Christ does. We are Jack Leach doing everything to screw it up. But here comes our hero fighting against sin, the world, the devil, taking on all hell. On Friday, we were dead and buried. On Sunday, he does it. Single-handedly, and he hands us the victory. Ruby, Ben Stokes is your hero. But we've got a greater one. One for the whole world. Though we have not expended a calorie of effort, thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. I'm Glenn Scrivener. It's the third of September. This is Speak Life, and you're watching the live cast. Welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00Hello. Welcome, welcome.
SPEAKER_01How has your summer been? Has it been better than an Australian summer so far? I hope. I hope it's been better for our viewers than it has for Australian cricket fans, but um Yes. You just don't care. No, I really couldn't.
SPEAKER_00Your one comment about my monologue was just uh what about Terminator 2 when you said Terminator 2 came back from the future. I was like, I think you're fine getting Terminator 2 isn't a character. Okay. It's the name of the film. Alright, what should I have said? It's like saying, like, oh my favourite bit is when um diehard blows up the building. That is my favourite bit though.
SPEAKER_01He saves the building though. But yeah, okay. I should I should have said T no I don't know what his name is though. Uh Schwarzni, anyway.
SPEAKER_00The T1 No, he's a T 2100 or T2100? T1000, but that's the metal one, isn't it? The liquid metal one.
SPEAKER_01Oh, is it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, T1000.
SPEAKER_01And you know, when you when you remember him saying Asta La Vista Baby, like you you imagine a much longer pause than when you actually view the terminator. You're like, you you think in your head it's Asta La Vista Baby, but then he just says Arte La Vista. It's very quick, isn't it? You know everything's better in my memory. But um anyway, do you notice the different surroundings? Um we are currently in our studio. We haven't yet built a set. No. These are just acoustic panels that take out the um uh the noise, take out the echo and the vibration, bit of reverb. Without without these, it sounds like we're in Grand Canyon, and it's just like it's still a little bit echoey.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But we're uh we're working on it. Yeah. And hopefully we will get the set fully built. And it well, you know, we've made a start. Yeah. We've got a table. That's we've got that's about it.
SPEAKER_01Shall I show them or shall I show them? Like the rest of the let's see.
SPEAKER_00You move that camera, your apparel.
SPEAKER_01It will never go back.
SPEAKER_00Look, here's the room. There you go. So high is that. Go a bit more slowly. The camera can't quite go.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00So if you're watching, if you're listening on the podcast, we're now panning round a uh a studio room with grey panels on the wall. Yes. There's a stack of chairs in the corner. We go coming back. A bit more, a bit more round this way. To you? No, towards to meet you. Okay. It's like Chucklevision, this. To meet to you. To me. To meet you. So this is our studio. How exciting is this? Yeah. Yeah, I think it's gonna be really good once once we kind of get this all sorted and we've got a proper little set.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that'll make this a bit less stressful because we were literally still setting things up when about what, 30 seconds left to go before broadcast.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, we like it. A wing and a prayer. A wing and a prayer.
SPEAKER_00We say we like it, Glitz. Um I think that may be the difference between how you and I operate sometimes.
SPEAKER_01A little bit. Um so this is kind of stage one of the new developments, a new building. Uh, but also stage two is new interns. So we're gonna have six interns. They're winging their way here. If they can fly through Hurricane Dorian.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um is that two of them are gonna come through that?
SPEAKER_01Or just I think uh mainly one. So so yeah, Nick's coming uh from the East Coast and uh and uh Matthew's coming from uh Indiana, right in the heartland. Right. And then uh Max is coming all the way from New Zealand. Yeah, and then we've got uh folks coming from York and London and uh Ipswich. So Ipswich even Giddy Heights. Yeah. So um, yeah, this is exciting. And uh, as of next week, uh we're actually gonna be away on uh a retreat where we're just gonna club together and get to know each other, figure out uh what uh what kinds of media are out there, what the things uh ought what what kinds of media ought to be out there, uh Christian-wise, and what can we uniquely do uh to make a noise for Jesus online? I think it's gonna be really fun. Should be exciting, get to know them a bit as well. And another exciting thing at Speak Life is we're hiring. Uh would you like to come and join us uh in Eastbourne? I had someone yesterday saying, um, I'm in Manchester. Is that is that too far away? But um they they thought they would love if it weren't for the commute. Um I mean you could move. I mean, if you've got a job, you could probably move. You could do it. Um but yeah, if you want to relocate to the the Sunshine Coast, uh or if you're in touching distance, uh come join us. We're looking for uh an office manager, we're also looking for a donor relations and fundraising manager. And uh if that sounds like you or that sounds like uh someone you know, uh then uh point them to speaklife.org.uk slash jobs. Speaklife.org.uk slash jobs. And uh those two jobs are coming up uh and deadlines for applications uh are actually on the 24th of September. So uh not long. Not long to go. So uh yeah, get cracking on that. Uh now we're thinking today about these are not the heroes you're looking for. Uh started out by yes, Paul's doing the Jedi Mind trick. Um because it's from Star Wars, these are not the drones you're looking for. The droids. The droids, sorry. This is why Hilo, why do I work with this guy? This is what you need, you need to work with me. Otherwise. What a what a faux pas. The letters, I tell you. There'll be sacks of mail. Um so uh yeah, we're thinking about Ben Stokes to begin with. Uh, and even if you know nothing about cricket, you just need to know that uh an individual won the game for England.
SPEAKER_00With an amazing reverse sweep.
SPEAKER_01A reverse sweep, yeah. Yes. Yeah, it's amazing that you took that off. I was telling Paul, make sure you capture the reverse sweep. That sounds like making a room messy, doesn't it? It's a reverse sweep. But it was it was quite the reverse sweep. And uh an absolute hero, but um, I'm always using this illustration. In sports, there are occasionally uh these incredible individual performances where somebody pulls it out of the bag and takes their team by the scruff of the neck, and though they deserve to lose in ignominy and shame. And the English deserved to lose in ignominy and shame, having been bowled out for 67. Nonetheless. Uh Ben Stokes kind of raised it up and 1 Corinthians 15, 57, thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. And I think that's kind of that for me is uh is a great illustration of the gospel. That though uh you have football fans, etcetera, saying, We won or we beat you, you know, you're li you were rubbish on the weekend. And the other person quite rightly says, Um, what are you talking about?
SPEAKER_00I was sitting at home uh yelling at a TV screen, but I use I've used that illustration loads of times, particularly when doing the Jesus and Adam thing.
SPEAKER_01Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, like the we won, who's your representative? Yes. We know that you know you send someone to the Olympics or to the World Cup, you just you understand it, don't you? People get that image that we s we stand or fall based on the performance of our representative. Yes. And if our representatives go and they lose, we can't just march up and grab the medal and say, Well, it's not my fault, you know. Yes. You know, and claim it, can we?
SPEAKER_01So And yet on the other hand, the good news is when our champion does win, we get to share in the the victory. And so often, like, we celebrate even more than the the guy who just scored the goal or the woman who just like crossed the line. Some people do, yeah, yeah. You know, she crossed the line, she's collapsed in a heap. Everyone else is like on their feet and and celebrating, and yeah, you know. You're you absolutely partake in the victory of your champion, you know, and yeah, and no one begrudges you saying we won at the end of it all. Um I mean obviously I've been reveling in England's prixing victories. Well, what's interesting is people who have no affinity for like for cricket at all suddenly they get very interested, and suddenly they they start showing up in my notifications. It's like everyone's texting me saying, ah, you know.
SPEAKER_00I don't think I'm consistently uninterested. Yeah, you are. You are.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well done for that. Well done. But I I always go to um uh Martin Luther wrote a little book called What to Look for and Expect When Reading the Gospels. And uh the book is almost as long as the the um the title. Um it's it's just a pamphlet, really, where Martin Luther sort of says, Look, in the medieval church, you actually get a lot of Bible. And you actually you hear an Old Testament reading and you hear a New Testament epistle, and you get and you get the Gospels read, and then the preacher gets up and preaches from the Gospels, and so lots of people are preaching from the Gospels, and you would expect that if you're preaching from the Gospels, you must be preaching the Gospel. And Martin Luther's like, nope, no, not it ain't necessarily so. Because you can preach Jesus as your example, right? Um, and so he he's got this great line in what to look for and expect in the gospels. He says, the chief article and foundation of the gospel is that before you take Christ as an example, you accept and recognize him as a gift, as a present that God has given you, and that is your own. So he's saying, you know, you can read the Gospels as though Jesus is just your example. And that would be a little bit like, you know, you you go to the Olympics and you watch Usain Boltz, you know, run superhumanly fast, and then you think, I could have a go at that. You know. Yeah. And you're like, well, alright, give it a go. He ran a hundred meters in 9.59 seconds.
SPEAKER_00Like 9.59 years for me.
SPEAKER_01Over to you, Paul. I think I'd run slower. You know, having seen Usain Bolt run, I think I'd probably run slower. But you can read the Gospels like that. You know, and and you s and you see Jesus. Lots of people do, don't they? Yeah. Right. I mean, I I naturally read the gospels like that. You just you just see Jesus. Classic example, you know, Jesus um in the wilderness being tempted by Satan. And you're like, okay, Jesus overcomes temptation by trusting in the word. So what's what's you know, what's the punchline to that sermon? You know, I guess I should try to overcome temptation through the word.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01How have I just cast Jesus? Example, right? Yeah. But you know, and imagine you're saying Boltz is not your example primarily. Imagine imagine he's your champion. You're Jamaican, he's Jamaican.
SPEAKER_00Easy to imagine. Easy to imagine.
SPEAKER_01You know, he's wearing canary yellow, you're wearing canary yellow, and then suddenly, like, you can't lose. You know, suddenly, if if you're Jamaican, he's Jamaican, and he's your champion, then then absolutely he is his victory is your victory. And if he's your example, you must try harder harder. You know, if he's if he's your champion, then you absolutely can't be a good one. I'm sorry. Paul, this is life. You understand that. It's the thing about the internet, it's uh can't take it back, no. It's instantaneous, it's irreversible, it's global. You know, there is Yeah, global.
SPEAKER_00It's 16 people. I mean 16.
SPEAKER_01Hello to the 16 viewers. Um do ask us questions in the comments. Quite rightly too. Bill Lovell! Um I always I always get the the wrong stress in your name. I I put the emphasis on the wrong syllable, uh Bill. Bill Lovell. Howdy from Texas. Howdy, Bill. Howdy.
SPEAKER_00Um I just can't see the comments. My do you never do you ever watch any live things on the Facebook app? Trying to work out how to get the comments visible. You gotta start with it. Do you go left, you go right, you go up, you go down, and then seemingly it's got it's an absolute nightmare.
SPEAKER_01Jim Gorley says he has always moved first towards us, acted first on our behalf, overcome on our behalf. We love him because he first loved us. I think that's absolutely true. Like, like, is Jesus an example in the Gospels? Totally, he is, but first he's your champion.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01First, he wins the victory for you. So the first thing you do when you read about Jesus overcoming Satan in the wilderness is not, okay, I better copy him. The first thing to do is to think, fantastic, because you know who Jesus is. Jesus is like the footballer who comes into the team headed for relegation. What happens just before the temptation in the Gospels? What's what's the scene immediately prime the baptism, right? And the baptism, that that is like the photo call when the new player enters into your team. And there's always that that time where the new player kind of shakes hands with the manager and you know and and everybody holds up the shirt. Yeah, I'm one of you. I'm one of you. And like literally every goal they now score belongs to the team.
SPEAKER_00It's a goal for you.
SPEAKER_01You know, and and so that's that's what the baptism is. It's Jesus entering into uh you know Team Earth, wearing our colours, shaking hands with the manager, God the Father, you know, filled by the Spirit, and then the Spirit sends him out into the wilderness in order to take on his first enemy. So the wilderness is actually game one in this new season. And you've got this wonder kid come in to the team, and you think, oh, what's he gonna do against the arch rival? And he actually scores the winner. Like he scores three winners, he gets a hat trick over like the arch enemy. And what you're meant to be doing is thinking, oh, that's a bit tasty. You know, the this is like in the opening match of the season, the champion comes in and single-handedly defeats your enemy, and you think maybe, maybe this season's gonna be different.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And as it proves to be, yeah, so so it is. But that's how you read the gospels. Like, before you see Jesus as your example, you take him as a champion, and you see him overcoming the enemies. He overcomes temptation, he overcomes Satan, he overcomes sickness, he overcomes the chaotic forces of nature, he overcomes death on the cross. And as he does all those things, he does it in your name and on your behalf. And you think, well, thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. So um yes, Bill Lovell says, please post the details of the Luther quote. I will do that, I will do that right now. But um you know, uh have you ever have you ever sort of read the Gospels in a kind of an exemplary fashion, as opposed to a a champion kind of a fashion? Well, yeah, apparently, yeah, I'm sure I have. Um I remember once um I preached on Mark 135 on prayer, and I was told this is a sermon on prayer, and I was given the text, Mark 135, but it just sets you up for an ex an exemplary sermon, because Mark 135 says, um, very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up and found a place and prayed. Sure. That'll preach.
SPEAKER_00Alright. Well, yeah. We all how how we've I'm sure we've heard a number of times people say, like, well, Jesus did this, therefore we should do that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00It's difficult though, isn't it? Because I mean you wouldn't you wouldn't say, Oh, it's a bad idea to copy Jesus. To do things Jesus did in the sense of spending time with God. Right, you know, praying, yeah. Being compassionate to people.
SPEAKER_01I'm a hundred percent for for like walking in the footsteps of Christ and following Christ, and you know. And and Luther said, before you take it, take him as an example, take him as a gift. Sure. You know, so you definitely take him as an example. But it's interesting, like before you take him as an example, maybe one thing I should have done in that sermon, because I I preached this sermon like 10 years ago. Um, you know, Jesus got up very early in the morning. How early do you get up in the morning? Could it be earlier? I think it could. You know, and everyone's just sort of squirming in the pew and yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's difficult, isn't it, sometimes trying to work out like what what applies directly into your life. Yeah. So I remember seeing like a a a theology course that was very kind of based, very charismatic, and it was saying, I can't remember the exact where the exact reference is now, but in the gospels where Jesus sends them out to you know do all these things. Right. Um and he gives them all these instructions. And they've kind of taken that as saying, like, and therefore we should be doing this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But yet like two verses earlier, he says, like, don't go to the Gentiles, etc. etc. And you're like, Well, hang on, you so how are you 'cause they were clearly taking it Jesus tells us to go and do this, therefore we should be going and doing that now. Yes. But they're not taking the bit about not going to the Gentiles. They're ignoring that bit. Yes. And I'm thinking you're being inconsistent in how you apply this passage. So you've got to be careful, haven't you? And look at that and go, well, within that command there Jesus is giving to the disciples at the time, how do we what's the principle that we bring into our lives? Because we can't just take it as a blanket, do exactly the same thing that Jesus says to do. Yes. Because we are, surely we are, we are to be evangelists to the Gentiles. Yes. You know? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And again, yeah, that reinforces that the first context is to read it as this is what happened. Once and for all, Jesus did it in his context.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But it's almost like we're constitutionally unable to just to read it as gospel, to read it as a heralding of what happened. We instantly have to go to, you know, what does this mean for me?
SPEAKER_00Well, what's the what's the thing people used to say, that acronym for Bible, basic instructions before leaving Earth? Yes. So like the Bible is basically your instruction manual, you know.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Which there, if you're reading it like that, it is just like, well, this is telling me what to do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And yeah, what does the word gospel mean? Yeah, good news. Good news. It's it's what the messenger heralds. If there's a new Caesar on the throne, there's some messenger who's got to run from town to town and just herald it in the public square. There is a new king, and then run off to the next place. And you know, um, that's what the gospels are. There is a new king. He's brought his kingdom, he's done it. Way. Literally, that's what we should be. We should be reading our gospels like that. But instead, instantly, we go and we don't even notice we're doing it. We instantly just cast Jesus. Obviously, he's an example, and and we can't even we can't even read it as the literature that it is. It's a historical narrative of what has happened. We almost it's and it's almost it's it's news to us to actually read it as news. You know, it's like, really? Um Bill Lavelle says, you know, my liberal seminary specifically taught me to teach Jesus as our example and little else. You know, and just like it's bizarre, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Because we I I don't read any other literature with that kind of hat on.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00You imagine if I was reading like the history of the Second World War. Yes. And it was like, and then the Nazis invaded Poland.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, no, don't do that. Like, well, clearly, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't read that and think, huh, that's the way forward.
SPEAKER_01At some point you think, you know, Winston Churchill, you know, that that took bravery, maybe that passes into my life.
SPEAKER_00Sure, yeah, absolutely. But I I there's no no sense in which I just take it straight off the page and go, yeah, I should do that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Or you go back to the old testament. Noah was told to build an arc. You're like, oh, let me get to B and Q, quick. Where's my gopher wood? Like, what's the response to reading about that? BQ, very disappointed to find your lack of gopher wood. Um, so yeah, before you take Jesus as your example, um, see him as a gift, see him as a champion, see him as Ben Stokes, who, even though you were dead and buried on Friday, raised you up on Sunday and Took up a piece of wood.
SPEAKER_00Took up a piece of wood, carried it out there. This stuff preaches itself.
SPEAKER_01Um Karen says, can't it be both is an example for us and good news for others? Yeah, absolutely it's both. Um but Luther's point is uh there's got to be an order. Um and before you take him as an example, take him as your as your um champion. And so I think if I was to preach that sermon on Mark 135 today, I think I might begin with you know a verse that that I was reading just this morning. Um, Hebrews chapter 4, it says, Since we have such a great high priest, let us approach the throne of grace with boldness. Jesus Christ is our great high priest, he is the one who brings us to heaven, and here he is in Mark 1, and he's earthed into our humanity, here is God the Son, who's become our brother, and he's continuing on his prayer life before God. Isn't it good to know that your great high priest has a good prayer life? Yeah, that's good. Like, ah, and now can I learn how to pray from him? Absolutely, absolutely. I'll enroll in his school of prayer and I'll say Amen to his perfect prayers. Um but it's got to begin with good news. You know, the indicative precedes the imperative. Like the the indicative is the statement of fact, the imperative is what you ought to do.
SPEAKER_00And I mean if you don't and if you don't have Christ as champion and you're taking him primarily as example, I mean that's gonna be pretty crushing, isn't it? Because you're just gonna stuff up all the time and be like, I'm I'm nowhere near this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Be Ben Stokes. Be your same bolt. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Get out there on the on the cricket pitch?
SPEAKER_01You can do it.
SPEAKER_00It is a pitch. Good man!
SPEAKER_01Did you Google that? On the cricket court, you know. The croquet lawn. Yeah. Um, so anyway, that's that's just my two cents on um heroes and what a great way of uh thinking about the gospel. Um Jesus is your champion. Um and uh it it makes me think, you know, as an Australian, I was actually able to um celebrate Ben Stokes and his achievements, even though he was, you know, on the other side. Um and I and part of part of why I'm able to sort of look at a little mini champion called Ben Stokes and not be crushed is because he's not a champion now.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, a little bit.
SPEAKER_01But Jesus, if Jesus really is your utter champion and nothing can take away his victory, then I can celebrate an English victory. I can sort of. Well, I could I could admire I can't celebrate that. I can admire. I can admire one one guy, anyway, out of eleven. Can't I? Out of 60 million, I can I can admire one victory. Um and that made that made me think this week as well about about politics and obviously how fraught things are in the UK. There's Brexit, is there going to be a general election? What's happening with Boris? How do you pronounce proroguing? All these questions are buzzing around uh our heads, and uh there's there's probably some very fraught political matters uh wherever you live. Um but so much of it is if Boris Johnson, for instance, is your guy, or if Jeremy Corbyn is your guy, um, then you've you've picked the wrong ultimate champion. And their victory will be far too important to you, or their defeat will be far too crushing to you. And what I see at the moment is just people um kind of not just impugning the motives of the other side and saying, oh, that's just a cynical move. They don't care about democracy. Um, which is almost certainly true, like whichever side you're talking about. But it's just it's just the hypocrisy saying, the other side, they don't care about you know democracy, they just want to rush Brexit through, or they don't care about democracy, they just want to remain in the EU. And like, yeah, no, yeah, you have picked a side, you probably just want Brexit, or you probably just want Remain. Um, no side has any kind of monopoly on virtue. And so casting the first stone is should be out for any of us. But it does it does make me think that we've kind of picked the wrong champions um at times. And and if Jesus is your champion and nothing can take you away from that, if you're still united to Jesus, whether or not you're not you're united to the EU, then maybe that can give you a little bit of um perspective on things. Psalm 146 is still in our Bibles. It's still there. Psalm 146, verse 3. Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man in whom there is no salvation. When his breath departs, he returns to the earth. On that very day his plans perish. Um Yeah, princes are not great champions, they have no salvation. Um but we have Jesus, and we've got him, and let's let's let that relativise the exaltation we might feel when our side's on top, or the crushing defeat that we feel when our side is not. Um and uh I I saw this uh cartoon from Matt in the telegraph. Did you ever see his cartoons in the telegraph? He's quite a good uh that Matt. Um and if you can't if you can't see it, um there there is a there is a kind of a a barefooted prophet um walking around with a massive placard saying, everything may be okay. Which is the last thing that anyone's saying. Um I don't know what kind of political landscape you're living with, but certainly there are no headlines that are screaming at me. Everything may be okay. Should be fine. And then there's another couple who are walking past this guy with a placard, they're reading everything may be okay, and the guy is saying to the girl, lunatic. I think the Christian should be that guy with a placard, saying everything may be okay. Um I I I I think we ought to be the people of hope, uh, because thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Um and therefore, even though your mini champion might be losing right now, um everything may be okay. In fact, it probably will. It probably will be. You heard it here first. We have it on good authority. That all shall be well and all manner of things shall be well, as Julian of Norwich once said. So let's let's be the lunatics who actually cling on to hope. I think that's the most countercultural thing we can do is actually be hopeful uh in the midst of people who are saying the sky is falling.
SPEAKER_00It does feel a bit like at the moment that every piece of news should they just should have that door song over the top, you know, the end or this is the end. Attack helicopters, you know, apocalypse now, napalm going off.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Totally. Yeah, everything's turned up to 11, and and it's obviously social media is is trying to press your outrage buttons, you know, and every headline is trying to provoke that visceral response in you. This is outrageous. They're not acting with complete virtue. Nope. Nope, they're not. But you know, thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Um there are some other heroes over the the summer break um who came out um recently and um in separate Instagram posts, we're gonna we're gonna shift gears here, um, to uh a bit of a news story that blew up in the Christian world, uh, which is that two poster boys for Christianity in one way or another um came out on Instagram and with different motivations and coming from different places, yet they expressed doubts in a very public way. Um one of them was Josh Harris, the other one was Marty Sampson. Were you following the story at all, Paul? What was it what was going on with the with the Josh Harris story? For those who don't know Josh Harris, who who is he?
SPEAKER_00Sure. So Josh Harris uh is an American uh American well writer and he was a pastor. Um so he kind of shot to prominence, I think it was kind of early 2000s, when he wrote a book called I Kissed Dating Goodbye, which I think sold like something in the region of one and a half million copies. Including you. Uh yeah, I had a copy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um I've read his book. And so his thing was really about uh how he felt that dating was not a good idea. Um and so actually he was kind of pushing for more of a kind of courtship type thing between Christians that should be kind of overseen, I think, by parents. Um I mean, to be honest, I'm getting this from what I've researched in the last day. I don't really remember any of that in the book, but um you took it advice as advice back in the day.
SPEAKER_01It's interesting. Nice idea, John. Um you took him as your champion, not your example.
SPEAKER_00And um, so yes, this idea that kind of dating perhaps wasn't a good idea, courtship was a a better thing, and kind of entering into relationships only if you could see yourself marrying that person. Um and so I mean it was obviously kind of a a huge phenomenon and whatnot. And it's kind of played into this thing that people call purity culture, which I think had been around for a few years before the book anyway. I think it was kind of early 90s type thing. So if you've ever come across the the rings, you know, people read a purity ring, the ring thing, yeah. I think that was even a slogan for the ring thing, yeah, and all that kind of stuff. And like I I was reading something about like, was it like daddy daughter balls? Right. Like where there'd be like a dance with like dads and daughters and all this kind of thing where you know dads would pledge to be an example to their daughters of purity, and girls would pledge to stay virgin so they married and stuff. And it I mean I think uh it very much fell on the so what I remember from his book is I would say I and I would have said that his stuff was it was a it was aimed at men and women. But I think in my head the purity culture thing often seemed to be very much focused on girls. Yeah, yeah. Um more so. Yeah. I mean I I didn't see boys wearing rings and stuff. Although apparently, you know, there there were a number of celebrities in recent years, uh including the Jonas brothers. Um so obviously they're boys. Yes. Um yeah, so anyway, he he's kind of very famous off the back of this, and he then went on to uh be a pastor of a church and quite a prominent church, I think, somewhere. Um in DC, was it Washington? It was the same church, I think, as CJ Mahaney. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, I believe. And then so in recent years he'd kind of disavowed the book, and he wrote a couple of follow-ups as well. He disavowed the book and asked for it not to be published anymore because he kind of he'd been kind of confronted about it and how it had actually been used to harm a lot of people, um, particularly I think women had had had you had it kind of used to kind of basically condemn them and shame them and um used in quite a negative sense. Um I mean he'd also and he he acknowledges he had people say like it had been a very helpful thing, yeah. Um but he kind of wanted to kind of take his name away from it because of the damages. And I think he even made a film with someone called I Survived, I Kiss Date and Goodbye, yeah, where he talked to people who'd kind of been affected by it, kind of in the negative sense, I think, primarily. Um so he kind of disabled that in the last couple of years, and then in recent months, I th I don't know how close together they were, he on Instagram he announced that he and his wife were separating. And then I I mean am I right in saying it was about a week later that he then said that actually he wasn't a Christian anymore. Yeah. So he kind of walked away from the faith, and then within weeks of that he was um kind of marching in LGBT pride week and things like that. Um so a whole load of stuff in quick succession almost there.
SPEAKER_01Um interesting that so fame played just quite a quite a big role in all of that. So if you're 21 and you suddenly got this this bestseller on your hands, you sell like Which I hadn't realised he was only 21. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh when he wrote the you know, when he wrote the book and it had shot uh kind of prominence. I mean in an article I was reading yesterday it was at the article quoted someone on Twitter who said, I mean, it said one woman cut him more slack because he was getting a bit of a he'd obviously taken a kicking, I think, over his book and stuff. She said, I feel bad for Josh Harris these days, to be honest. He has to live with a lot of people's pain, but he was 21. Everyone's dumb at 21. No publisher should have given him the time of day, no Christian leader or parent should have given his message that kind of power. And you know, I think that's also whilst you know I think there is criticism that is fair to level at him, I think that's also fair as well. Yeah. When I when I found out which only yesterday, I was like, he was 21. I was like, what on earth? Yeah, yeah. Think of the stupid things I said at 21. I think the stupid things I say at 33. Yeah. What is what does anyone know anything about? You know, just it it seems bananas that you could be that young. Yeah. I mean, obviously, I think it's culturally, um it varies from culture to culture. But you know, we live, particularly in the West. At 21. I mean, you're still I mean, there's this prolonged adolescence, isn't there, in the West, compared to other cultures where you might be very responsible at a much younger age and more mature. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I certainly wouldn't want to take the words of a 21-year-old as kind of being this great thing that everybody should be reorienting their lives around and yet, you know, there are there are people with one and a half million subscribers on YouTube who are much younger than 21, who people are looking to and getting advice from, and you know. Sometimes they can sometimes there can be a snobbery about books. They they sort of say, Oh, you should never write a book until you're at least 55, or you know, and I always hear that and think, how do you know you're gonna make it to 55? Yeah, yeah. I've got no guarantees of that. And you would never say, you must never like like make a YouTube video until you're 55. Yeah, there's a bit of there's a bit of a snobbery about, you know, book books are real communication and every other form that we let everyone else do all the time. Is it well, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, then you talk about the people who are influencers. I mean, that kind of came out a little bit in because the other guy is Marty Sampson, yes, the Hillsong worship leader, he kind of came out, and his thing was always different. He didn't he kind of basically just said like he was losing his faith, didn't he? And he had a lot of questions, and then I think he came out a few days later and said, I haven't walked away entirely, I'm just shaky ground kind of thing. Um, and he he took a bit of a kicking as well from well from various people. Um and in the uh there was a the guy from Skillet wrote some kind of response to him as well, he's uh a Christian band, and and then Marty Samson kind of hit back at him a bit because I think because the guy in Skillet had said like he was an i you know, referred to these influencers, and Marty Samson was like, I've never meant to be you know an influencer. I think that's a bit naive from Samson's point of view. Like you if you're on Instagram and you're this big kind of Christian celebrity, you are an influencer and you have to realise that it's not up to you really to decide whether you want to be one or not, you kind of you end up being one. So yeah, especially when you want to vent it on Instagram. There are loads of ways that you can see. If you've got thousands and thousands of followers, I mean yeah, and you stand up and you say it on Instagram in front of everybody, don't be surprised when people turn around and say those things.
SPEAKER_01Um But I think I think he's been the victim of collapsing contexts in uh because I think I think he said his thing on Instagram within weeks of Harris, maybe even. Yeah, it was all in the summertime, wasn't it? Um and so it's it's just so easy to say, oh Marty Sampson, just like Josh Harris, and yet like the only thing that's similar between them is Instagram. Like um and actually Marty Sampson's come back and he's and he's sort of said, no, look, um, you know, if you if you want to look into the Christian faith more, I recommend William Lane Craig and I recommend Tim Keller, did he say? Or it like he recommended a whole bunch of people that people, you know, folks could check out. So Marty Sampson seems to be in quite a different place to Josh Harris.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, very much so. And I think as well, I mean the the thing that I find so the thing I don't like about when these things happen is you kind of think, oh man, that's a real shame that these guys in that place or have walked away entirely. But then then just seems like open season for some Christians to be like, let's use this as a jumping-off point. So I mean the the first thing I saw about this was not anything to do with Marty Samson, it was basically people just taking pot shots at Hillsong, and like, aha, right. This proves it, Hillsong must be terrible because of course no one in the Church of England or any other denomination has ever fallen away. No, we know that for sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um denomination.
SPEAKER_00You know, and because he one of his things was saying, like, you know, how could a good God send people to hell and you know, and people aren't answering these questions and whatnot. And people were saying, like, oh, well, why aren't Hillsong answering these questions in their church? What kind of church, yada yada, yada, yada? But then I think in my church, we're not like on a weekly basis, you're not answering those questions. I mean, I don't think I've I've you rarely see a sermon about just that topic, yeah, you know, yeah. And and unless and and those very topical discussions don't often come out of a straight preach off one passage. Yeah. If that is more of a thematic topical question. So I mean, I think it's I I you know you could be in an absolutely faithful Bible teaching church and be having these questions in your head that are not being answered from the pulpit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And if you don't ask people about it and raise it yourself, then you may well find yourself questioning these things. I don't think that's a reflection necessarily on the church you're in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, and so everyone wants to pile in and say, oh, this is exactly everything that I've ever thought about Hillsong. Like, what? Or with Josh Harris, it's like this is this is everything I've ever thought about.
SPEAKER_00It must be wrong, everything must be wrong because here's our example. But I mean the the the um the Samson thing as well, I felt bad for him because I think as well, like people, you know, jumped on the Hillsong thing, but like and said, oh clearly Hillsong aren't answering these questions. But I I think it's the case that probably in any setting where you are a Christian leader, doesn't matter what kind of church you're in, it is quite difficult for someone who's uh a Christian in the the public eye, whether you're a celebrity Christian, like known widely, or whether you're just at the top of your your church or in leadership in your church. It's quite difficult if you're in a leadership position to say. I'm actually quite struggling at the moment.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Like, imagine if you're a vicar, how would you feel if your vicar said from the front in the pulpit, like, to be honest, I'm not sure I actually believe any of this anymore. I'm having some serious doubts, and you'd be like, Yeah, you you know, should this guy be up the front doing this? And actually, that would be a really hard I mean there were times as a youth worker I was struggling with things, but like it's really difficult to say that because you think, well, if I say I'm having issues with this, or I'm thinking about you know these questions and I don't know what I make of this anymore, then you think people just go, maybe you should not be working here anymore. Yeah. You know, and you're like, Yeah, I have a family and a house that comes with this job and all these kind of things like that, and I don't know what his situation is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But if you're a very high-profile person to then start questioning the thing that's put you in that place, it's quite difficult to do. Well, his livelihood is at risk from this.
SPEAKER_01I mean, you know, he he Marty Sampson earns money from having a lot of people who love Jesus sing his songs. Um and if he's now questioning his faith. So in from one perspective, it's a very it's at least working against his incentives to to to claim doubt. But the tr the trouble is it's it's just really dumb to air all of that on social media, you know. Yeah. So whatever wobbles you have as a vicar or a youth worker, you you don't take to Facebook to figure it out.
SPEAKER_00No. Not about that, not about anything. I think everybody should be airing. You know when people some people air all of their dirty laundry on Facebook and you just think, why are you doing this?
SPEAKER_01I think that's that for me is because so so Josh Harris, he had fame at an early age, and I wonder if he had a taste for it. Um and you know, and he really tried to get a YouTube channel going, and didn't it didn't really work for him. And he was he was gonna do the hard work of really building a subscriber base and and that never took off. Um and then he's got these very curated Instagram shots, like the one of him giving up the faith. Is he must have had like he must have had a at least a tripod and someone else, like or or just a tripod and a timer, for him to look into the middle distance at a lake, kind of looking messianic heroic into the you know, into the distance, yeah, it's very single tear coming down the cheek, sort of thing.
SPEAKER_00It's a very managed image of leaving this kind of thing, isn't it? It's not just a low-key that's what's disturbing for me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, is that why yeah, why is it all about the show? Why is it all about Instagram and and YouTube and trying to do it online? Um because as you say, like we've all got we've all got doubts to process. We've all we've all got difficulties that we want to struggle through. Um it's just Instagram is not the place to do it. No. Um and and you know, I think I think Marty Sampson knows better now. And and I think he like I think he'll seek out better ways of expressing those doubts. I don't think he should squash those doubts. I think he should find answers to those questions he was asking. I just don't think Instagram is the place to seek them.
SPEAKER_00For me, like the thing that comes off the back of both of them is not really related to social media, it's more a question of um clearly both these guys at some stage have started to have questions or issues. And you just think, like, why were there not people they could talk to behind the scenes to start you know having some discussion about it? Even to say, you know, I oh you know, actually I'm really struggling with this question at the moment, and I'm finding it quite disconcerting. Like, what do people think? And I wonder whether part of it is to do with I don't know if there's been any high-profile people recently who've left the church who've been women. But there's definitely a th whether or not that's the case. I think there is definitely a thing with with men that men have fewer close relationships like that, so we're less good at talking about stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We're more likely not to bring these things up and have a conversation because we don't have the close groups and open up in the way perhaps women do, which is obviously a complete sweeping generalization. But I think that is the generalization for a reason. Well, exactly, yeah, yeah. And so there is a drift, and you think like, well, if only people like Marty Sampson and Josh Harrison had a close core of male friends where you could just say, like, you know what? Yeah, why are we not talking about hell? Or I'm in a rubbish season right now because which Josh Harris is. Yeah, and and yeah, my my marriage is falling apart, you know. If you you know, could and I've known people where people have suddenly just one day, husbands have upped and disappeared.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah with literally no warning. And I knew nothing about it coming. Yeah. And you just think and and then I've spoken to them and they've said, oh well, there was this and there was this, and I'm like, well, why didn't you ever say anything? Yeah. You know? Yeah. And because because a small issue could easily have been talked through and maybe worked through.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But by the time we were at this stage, there's a hundred issues which are now like this that haven't been dealt with. And I I wonder if that's a sweep and lunch generalization for just for guys, but no.
SPEAKER_01We've had uh Vanessa and Karen um in the comments. Karen says, I think we need to get much more comfortable talking about our doubts. Amen to that. And Vanessa Vanessa Bailey says yes to not taking your uh sorry, it just dropped down, yes to not taking your struggles to social media. And yeah, if you if your only friends are either on Netflix or on Facebook, um then we're we're in a really difficult place. And help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. Yeah, that's it's not it's not gonna help. And and and so, you know, I I don't think God's finished with Josh Harris. Um, you know, he's he's clearly going through a really difficult season right now.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, and I think that's important to uh for both these guys, and or obviously they're in different positions, but people kind of go like so-and-so's fallen away, and you just don't know, do you? Like, I mean, because he who knows a year, two years, ten years, twenty years down the line, yeah, who says he's not going to be back? Right. And I I'll tell you who's discernment bloggers to handle I know exactly we don't know. Yes, and so the story isn't finished yet. And just because he's been very public about it, which is you know, probably not very wise, not at all. It doesn't mean it is the end of it, because there are and there must there are gonna be plenty of people, remember, who are in your church who have basically been going along like a Josh Harris and then have gone down like that and thought they're in the same place as Josh Harris going, I'm not sure I believe any of this anymore, but they're still in church and have not said anything. And they're gonna hear you call him a wolf. Yeah, but they're also gonna go along this line, and then at some stage later they go, Oh. And they come back into kind of a real faith.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you kind of never knew that they went through that. Yeah. But if you knew, you would have written them off. Yeah. You know, but you hadn't written them off because you you you kind of believed in what they were, they were still believing the same things.
SPEAKER_01It's so much uh we're gonna have to wrap this up in a second, but but there are so many like reformed bloggers, and I I put myself in the and under the reformed umbrella, but because we believe in the perseverance of the saints, right? So if you know anything about sort of pop Calvinism, can kind of be summarized by five points. Tulip is the acronym Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and then the fifth one is P, Perseverance of the Saints. It's that um if you are in Christ, he will see you home. You know, and it's the idea that he's my great high priest, and if I'm one with my Lord, then the only way I can go to hell is if Christ goes to hell. And that ain't happening, so you know, so we will persevere. Um now, some people want to derive from that, okay, if if you're a true Christian, you never fall away. Um some people want to derive from that, oh look, Josh Harris has publicly fallen away. He must never have been a true Christian. Sure, yeah, yeah. And you think, or he's backsliding and will return. And nothing about Thulip. I'll be back. Nothing about Thulip, nothing about John Calvin gives you a window into his soul. Nothing about John Calvin solves this question for you. Whether Josh Harris was never a believer or whether he is a believer who's backsliding. Nothing, nothing about Calvin's Institute. You can read all four books in Calvin's Institute, which I have, and none of it will tell you whether Josh Harris is elect or not. Yes. That is a divine decree, goodness me. But, you know, so it just doesn't help. Like, like bringing up perseverance of the saints is really helpful in a totally different conversation. The totally different conversation is, okay, if I truly am in Christ and he's not going to let me go. That is pastorally consoling. But in trying to identify whether Josh Harris um has never been in Christ or whether he is in Christ but backsliding, um, the the P of tulip is of no use to you whatsoever.
SPEAKER_00So drop it. Also, I mean I think this is a the it the responses to when these things happen are sl uh are almost more indicative of people other people's hearts than they are of the hearts of the people who've fallen away. Yes. So I mean you think if a friend of yours comes to you and says, does a Marty Sampson says what Marty Sampson says, your immediate kind of response is you're gonna be you're gonna be gutted about it, you're gonna be, you know, sad about it, you're gonna want to be praying for that person, trying to help them with their questions, praying for them when, you know, away from them as well as maybe with them if they're up for that. Um why is that not our response when these guys fall away? Why is it that so many Christians response the the righteous fuse response is to go, ah we told you, yeah, we told you about them, we told you about their church. Yeah, you go, isn't is that is that a good response?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Do you not do you know why that's the response? Because these are not the heroes we're looking for, you know, come full circles telling us it's almost like it was planned. But it's it I think there's there's a lot of truth to that in in that when we're looking to Christian leaders, whether they are Instagram kind of leaders or whether they're your local church pastor, but but when we when we look to princes, when we put our trust in princes and they fall, that is utterly crushing.
SPEAKER_00All their kings fall.
SPEAKER_01All their kings fall, yeah, and and it all falls apart. Yeah, so we we then take that far more to heart rather than okay, well, thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. I I think okay, my position is secure, my tribe can go up or down, that's okay. But the people of the Lord, we are secure. And and then through mercy, we can reach out to a Josh Harris, we can reach out with mercy to a Marty Samson and and and deal with them. If if and that's where the P comes in handy, the perseverance of the Saints. Okay, I'm in Christ, he'll never let me go. That's good to know. Um now from that position of security, let's reach out, and and maybe Josh Harris never did come to Christ and he needs to come to Christ, or maybe he's backslidden and he needs to come to Christ. Bottom line is he needs to come to Christ.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_01And you know, let's let's have a bit of mercy, um, and let's have a bit of wisdom. Let's not take all of our concerns and struggles to Instagram.
SPEAKER_00Yep, yep, I think that's fair.
SPEAKER_01Your friends should be in real life, not just on Netflix, not just on Facebook. Um good, that ought to do it uh for today. Um these are not the heroes you're looking for. So we will uh release this as a podcast in the very near future. Do look out for that. If you're not yet subscribed to us, do please subscribe to us, that really helps us, and give it a share. If you like what we do, um, then it really helps if you spread the word.
SPEAKER_00And um, if you're enjoying kind of the stuff we're putting out and enjoying our work, if you'd like to support us, head on to over to speaklife.org.uk forward slash give, uh, where you can find out how to support our work. Um and I think is the is the foundry one a different one? Speaklife.org.uk for speaklife.org.uk forward slash foundry. Yes. Find out there a bit more about the foundry that's right there.
SPEAKER_01And there's a crowdfunder there on um forward slash foundry, uh, which will get you a free book if you like.
SPEAKER_00Christmas the all description. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So yeah. And so next week we're not gonna be here. We're not gonna be here. We are we are going to um upload something next week with our interns. And we'll show you a little bit of our week away. We're calling it the Ignite Week. Because we're a foundry, we're being forged together in fire. Speakstands I've read in the Bible about fire. It's called flame.
SPEAKER_00Ignatius, ultimate youth pastor. For those of you not uh got a clue what we're talking about, you know that.
SPEAKER_01I mean, you might not have known about Calvin's five points, but surely you know Ignatius the youth pastor. Um uh so yes, we'll we'll let you know what's happening with the foundry next week, and in two weeks' time we'll be back in here building up the set and uh making things look beautiful. Yeah, I think it's gonna be cool. It's gonna be good. It's gonna be good. Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us, guys, and we'll catch you next time. Yeah, take care, one and all. Bye.