Speak Life Podcast. Sharing Jesus in everyday life. Well, hello everyone, and welcome to another one of our summer podcasts here at Speak Life. If you were listening last week, you'll know that uh many of us are way over the summer, so uh we're a little bit kind of light on what we're doing, but we're trying to keep the podcast rolling out. And in order to do that, we are using some of the audio from videos we've produced in the past that haven't yet made it to the podcast last week. You will have heard um Glenn's videos on Jordan Peterson, uh, which was I think there are five videos of those which have been put together into one thing. If you've not heard that yet, do go back and check it out because today we're gonna be hearing an interview between Glenn and Paul Vanderkly. Now, Paul is a uh a pastor in North America, I believe it's Livingstones, Sacramento, is his church, and he's um got a bit of a quite a bit of a following on on YouTube. Um I think he's been effectively called the pastor to the dark web. Um so he's been kind of engaging with uh these ideas that are coming out of people like Jordan Peterson. He's been engaging with it from a cushion perspective. He saw Glenn's videos, and so he and Glenn got together to have a chat about it. So here we've put that audio for you. We'll hope uh that you will enjoy that.
SPEAKER_01Okay, there you go. So keep keep talking, keep talking. Everywhere you go, people so people are coming to church and and they and they say it's because of Jordan Peterson.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, loads of times. So I I would say everywhere I've gone in 2018, that has been a story from at least one person, if not a whole handful of people. They've said uh Jordan Peterson was the gateway drug, he breadpilled me or whatever. They'd you just get talking to these 20-something guys mainly, and uh and they just start talking about you know, I I realize that I need to take more responsibility for my life, and and as you press into so who are your influences and who are you listening to online? And uh, oh Peterson! Oh yeah. Shocked face, shocked face, uh and then we get into a yeah, yeah. Isn't he one of those basket of deplorables type characters? But yeah, they they usually look over both shoulders before confiding in me that uh they too have partaken of Jordan. But um yeah, I yeah, it's a really interesting movement and uh and seeing you interact with people on a weekly basis for whom that's been the story.
SPEAKER_01Tell me something about how Peterson lands your take on it in the UK, because it's it's obviously different in different contexts. And he's done, he's had some of his more I was just watching the GQ uh the GQ UK edition interview that went up uh a couple of days ago, and that again was one of the more combative interviews. So, so how how is he received in the UK? I mean, do people have to you know read 12 rules for life inside of a Playboy magazine? Is that playboy? That's right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02The real contraband is Jordan in a brown paper bag, knock twice and ask for reg. Yeah. He well, I mean, part partly that is the UK's style of uh Oh, thank you so much. Got a couple a cup of things coming here. You might want to clip you might want to clip that bit out.
SPEAKER_01I I never edit.
SPEAKER_02Sandy is now a superstar. Okay. Um did I say thank you? I don't even think I said thank you.
SPEAKER_01That's all the noise here.
SPEAKER_02Uh that's no problem. I don't even think I said thank you. And now this is being broadcast to thousands of people. My my rudeness. I will thank Sandy later.
SPEAKER_01Christians are such cads.
SPEAKER_02I know.
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SPEAKER_02Um, so uh I think you've got to factor in the combative nature of UK journalism as well. Um I think in the last 25 years there's there's been a real um style of journalism that is the attack dog thing. That's Kathy Newman was just one example of uh an entire breed of journalists that are just like that in the UK. So what one of the reasons I was so glad to see Jordan kind of get one over on Cathy Newman was nothing to do with Kathy Newman, but just to do with that whole movement of attack dog journalism going for the gotcha, and then it was Jordan who got the gotcha. So that's what made it so delicious. So partly you've got to factor in that style of journalism, partly you've got to factor in that the UK is a lot more left of center than the US more generally. Um but but then I guess it's quite it's quite similar to Canada in that way. Um but I I I went and saw Jordan just six days ago uh up in Oxford, and uh I was expecting to see an audience of the Basket of Deplorables up close and personal, and it's just a regular, a regular Oxford crowd, men and women all ages, um really, really resonating with him. And he looked dog tired, absolutely dog tired, but uh everyone hanging on his every word, and yeah, just an interesting phenomenon.
SPEAKER_01What were the what were the did he take questions?
SPEAKER_02He did. He he woke up for the questions. That was good.
SPEAKER_01Um and what kind of questions were there?
SPEAKER_02It was particularly animated on the subject of hate speech rules. So there have been a couple of uh incidents recently, uh one where Scottish police have um uh had a bus bus advertisements, so in in like foot-high letters, um, these posters that say, Hey bigots, your time is coming. Uh, we will not stand for um religiously motivated hate speech, you know, signed the Scottish police. So the Scottish police are like provoking a fight saying, Hey bigots, um we're against hate. Um and the irony was lost on them, apparently. Um and then the South Yorkshire Police, they uh they started advertising on social media that they want people to report hate incidences. It it doesn't have to be a crime, it could just be a hate incident. Um, but we want to know this and we want to uh and of course, you know, South Yorkshire police weren't brilliant at handling a whole bunch of sort of child sex abuse, you know, scandals and all sorts of things. And so people quite rightly wanted to know why they weren't turning their attention to actual crimes uh when they wanted to punish thought crimes. So Jordan got very uh uh very animated at that point. He he really woke up and said, What's happening to your country? You need to you need to stop this now. Um yeah, that that was where he cared the most, I think, seeing seeing free speech trampled on, basically.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Well, uh you I you first came across my radar screen, Glenn, when you did some videos about Jordan Peterson. So let's uh what was your where did you grow up? What was your family like? How did you um become a Christian? Why did you become a pastor? What's your ministry look like? Why don't you cover some of that territory?
SPEAKER_02Okay, in 10 words or less. I grew up. Yeah, I know we have time. Uh I grew up in Australia and uh it was a church-going home. Uh my mother always had a very very lively faith. Um, and so uh yeah, we would we would go along to church. Um there were certain things that happened in the home when I was growing up. My sisters are a lot older than me, but they they discovered a few things that made them want to uh run a mile from the Christian faith, and I don't I don't blame them for that uh in a lot of ways. So uh but I I was a lot younger, and I I was sort of the good Christian boy going along to Sunday school, putting the hand in the air, getting the answers right if you stick with the Jesus. Usually a safe bet. And uh uh didn't really get it. And and by the time I went to university, I I think I had a picture of God as the distant individual, high on power, low on personality. That's the sort of the gods that I had sort of assumed to exist and went went away to university thinking I was a Christian, having no real comprehension of who Jesus is. And uh a friend of mine kept inviting me to church, and um uh I remember going every Sunday night to this church, uh St. Aldate's in Oxford, and I I remember hating the preacher with a great passion um and going back every Sunday to hate him some more. He he thought he was so down with the kids, he was he was using all these you know contemporary modern examples of of the gospel, and I just thought, you know, you think you're cool and you're so not. And but now I'm a preacher, so now I see the same, I see the same kid with his arms folded at the back, and I think you just wait, you just wait, kiddo. That was me. And of course, in the background there's a praying mother, yeah. So that's that's always significant. And um, and then of the same friend who invited me to church said, let's read the gospels together. And I I just remember getting halfway through Luke's gospel and just being blown away by the person of Jesus. Just um, you know, the compassion, the love, the magnetism, the charisma, um that he could turn on a dime. I remember I remember I remember as we were going through um Matthew 23 and and just the the denunciation of you hypocrites, you Pharisees and teachers of the law, and you brood of vipers, and and and of course that that really sort of resonated with me because both my sisters sort of walked back away from the faith because of hypocrisy. And and to see Jesus was just hot with fury against the the religious self-righteous. That was so interesting. And then the very end of that chapter, he says, Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how I've longed to gather you like a hen gathers her chicks, but you are not willing. And like he he ends that whole chapter of just blistering fury with this heartfelt appeal to come home. I'm I still have the the mother hen uh compassion for you. And I just I remember just keeping on reading through, and just halfway through Luke's gospel, I just thought, ah, if if this is what God's like, I'm in. You know, this this is the God that I could actually trust. Um if it's the Jesus God, then I jump in with both feet. If it's just the distant individual, well, I'll I'll just carry on. Not giving too much thought to these things. But if it's yeah, I I've always loved Lord Byron's uh line. So that you know Lord Byron, the poet, said, Um, if God is not like Jesus Christ, he ought to be. Yeah. That's yeah. So that was that was sort of aged about 2021, and and um I got a job in the in the civil service in Australia, which was not uh I'm not really suited for an office job and it didn't do very well there. And then discovered and it took me a while to figure out, ah, you know what, actually, like shooting your mouth off about Jesus, um, that's that's actually a call. That's actually that's something that people do. So I started working for churches uh in 2000 and started working for a church in London, and then back in Canberra, in Australia, and then back in London again, and then I went to uh sort of seminary and I got ordained in the Church of England in 2007, and then I came down here to Eastbourne, where I live on the south coast of England, working for a church there. You you're a sort of a curate, if you know the term curate, it's it's like you're a uh a minister with your L plates on, you're sort of uh in in training. And I was in that training position on staff uh of all souls Eastbourne for four years, and then at the end of that I got this job where I am now at this charity that I work for called Speak Life, and I still go to that church and I still preach quite a bit there, but my day job is uh as an evangelist.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, that's fun. And so what is Speak Life?
SPEAKER_02So we used to be known as the Hour of Revival Evangelistic Association, uh, which is quite the mouthful. And that was back in the 50s. There was a guy called Eric Hutchings, he used to be known as the British Billy Graham, and uh he would he would go and have these massive crusades, and you know, he would preach and the choir would sing and hundreds would come forward, and it was that that kind of thing. He had a radio ministry, and then he he died in uh 1982, I think, with with no real plans for for legacy or passing it on, and and so nothing really happened. And then 30 years later, a large legacy was left to the charity, and they thought, oh, we could actually employ another evangelist. So I'm only the second evangelist to be employed by this uh this charity. Uh there was a 30-year gap in between. And uh and now I'm just I'm trying to get really back to not the not the Crusades thing, but he he had this ministry of of preaching and media, which back in the day was radio, and these days it's it's kind of online. So we try to do the same kinds of things and and make a noise for Jesus.
SPEAKER_01Okay, okay. Now in the UK, does I mean in in American terms your outfit would very much be evangelical? And I know evangelical in the UK means something different than it does on the American context. Does evangelical in the UK have a political overtone to it?
SPEAKER_02Not at not at all. I could I could not guess what anyone in my church uh would have voted for with the the referendum on Brexit. I I have no idea who people vote for election by election. It's it's absolutely not segmented uh like that. Um there's slightly more in the free church tradition, there's there's slightly more voting for the Labour Party and the and the and the Liberal Party, um, because they have those kinds of um foundations. There's slightly more voting, I would guess, for the conservatives among Anglicans. Um, but yeah, among evangelicals, it's it's just not politically divided at all. And one of the reasons might be because most of the churches that would identify as evangelical in uh the UK are also Anglican. And I think that the Church of England is the Church of England plays chaplain to the whole nation. So any, you know, anyone in our parish who wants to get married, we can marry them. Anyone who wants to get baptized, you know, we can have a chat about it, and if they really want to, then then we baptize. And anyone who wants to be buried, and we bury them, and we we and anyone who wants to have a conversation about the deep issues of life, they can knock on our door at three in the morning, and and we do play chaplain to the nation because of this this parish system. So I I I just think it can't we can't be politicized as much. Okay. Um can't afford to be politicized as much. Which is ironic because in the in the in the US there's such a separation of church and state is the dogma, yeah. And yet religion and politics are kind of like this. Um, whereas in the UK, we've got bishops in the upper house of Parliament. In the House of Lords, they're literally the bishops get to sit there. The Queen is the governor of the Church of England, and yet actually religion and politics are you know completely separate. Um I was talking to uh the the leader of the Liberal Democrat Party, which is sort of the the third party. Um there's conservatives, Labour, and then the Liberal Democrats, which are a much smaller uh party these days. But he he made an interesting comment uh just the other day. He said that in America you've got to pretend to have a face to get get on in politics, and in Britain you've got to pretend not to have a face to get on in politics.
SPEAKER_01That's fascinating. Now, yesterday I did a little video about Noel Plum, and he was explaining. I don't know if you saw that video, he was explaining. Yes, I did. Yeah, Christianity is or no Joe Jordan Peterson is good for good for Christians because it'll help them in their expressive individualism, you know, be happier, but bad for Christianity because he plays into the Church of England being you know on the fence about the the only empty right, I played a clip from empty right in there that the only the only issue in the Church of England is you know, do they or don't they believe that you know Jesus had skin on when he walked out of the tomb? So what was your what was your take on on Mr. Plum in the game room's take on the Church of England?
SPEAKER_02Well, I I just I just think he um I think it was it was correct. Um well what what I don't think he got right was in order to quote from um um Anglicans who are just so utterly liberal they don't even believe in the resurrection anymore, he actually had to go back to um David Jenkins, who was Bishop of Durham. Um well he retired from that in 1994. And of course, since he was Bishop of Durham, um there was another much more famous bishop of Durham who was NT right himself. Um and David Jenkins was such such an outlier in his own day. And then the other person he quoted was Giles Fraser, um, who is known as the loose canon. He was the canon of St. Paul's Cathedral, and he and he writes a column in the Guardian newspaper, but he he is by no means representative of the theological tenor of the Church of England. Um, you know, we've got we've got an Archbishop of Canterbury who, you know, identifies as evangelical, the Archbishop of York, who is you know number two in terms of the structures of the Church of England, is also evangelical. So um I disagree with that. Um and then on the stats, yeah, there are churches absolutely haemorrhaging numbers, but what's interesting is when you dive down into the numbers, actually the churches that most hold a more traditional ethical line and and uh uh spend much more time in the scriptures, they are actually the churches that are increasing in uh in attendance. So the Diocese of London is is a much more conservative diocese than the rest of the diocese, and it's one of the only really growing and dynamic diocese in the Church of England, and and evangelical churches are just about holding their own, maybe even increasing a little bit, while other liberal um uh parts of that denomination and other denominations are absolutely um going down the tubes. So I can agree with that. I can agree that um people who start to say it doesn't matter what's happening, you know, to Jesus and whether he's risen from the dead, that's it's true that if you swallow that hook, line and sinker, then you'll be relevant for about three and a half minutes and and then you'll you won't have a church in three and a half years. So uh that's true, you know, that's true. But I don't think that that's what Jordan Peterson is is doing. I don't I don't see why he's making that link, really, to Anglican theology.
SPEAKER_01So what do you think Jordan Peterson is doing? I mean your videos your videos about him, I listened to him again this morning. Uh the I mean the churches are so there's lots of you know, Peterson is in a s in a sense a Rorschach test. And when I run my meetups, people come in and in many ways they hear the Peterson they want to hear, or others hear the Peterson that they want to hear in a negative way. They oh this is the this is the one who's standing against progress and he's a bigot and he's a misogynist and he's transphobic. So so Peterson Peterson does act like a mirror, and and people see in him a funhouse mirror, people see in him the distortions they're looking for. But what do you what do you think is and so Christians are listening to him and they're like, well, you know, this um live as if and uh you know some of the other issues that come up, Jung, Darwin, so on and so forth, especially from evangelicals. But clearly he's having an impact. Why?
SPEAKER_02Why do you think I don't think it's what Noah Plum says in terms of because he's so rational and he makes it um intellectually respectable to be Christian again. I don't think it's really so much about the intellectual side of things. I think he cares, and I think he's pastoral, and I think that psychological side of things. Um I think he's the father we wish we had, and and I think he is fathering a lot of guys, really, and and speaking deeply and wisely to them about rules for living. So, you know, it's just interesting that it's it's a self-help book that kind of defines his phenomenon. It's it's not, you know, here are 12 arguments for the Jungian Darwinian framework. It doesn't sound like Jordan Peterson to me. What sounds is here are 12 rules for life and stand up straight with your shoulders back and come on, you can do it, and take up your cross and march to the top of the hill and take as much responsibility as you can. And and this call to responsibility and adventure is what people are responding to. Um and yes, it helps that he can ground things um scientifically and within a Darwinian framework. I I guess that that helps with with a lot of people, but I just I I don't think it's because he makes it intellectually respectable. I I think it's because he cares. I and what what I've responded to in his um teaching is has been that he treats the Bible as a human document that is meant to humanize us, it's addressed to humans, and its intention is to humanize, um, which is just so helpful, even as a Christian, it's just so helpful. Because I just I I'm just surrounded by preachers who constantly treat the book as though it's this specialized text for specialized people called Christians to live a specialized life and tweak your discipleship over here. Um and for him to just restore the book to the center of cultural conversation. And to say it is a human document, and Christians shouldn't run away from that. Of course, it's a human document. We think something else is going on as well, but we also think it's a very human document addressed to humankind en masse. And it humanizes people. So I've loved that. I've loved his existentialism. I've loved the way he, you know, when he's asked about what he believes, he's not really interested in the question. I quite like that. It sounds a lot like the book of James in the New Testament. You know, the devil's got a very, you know, realized theology. The devil understands a lot about stuff and shudders, but you know, that that's not what a Christian should be interested in primarily. So and and his idea that, you know, the reason why he's not interested in just articulating a set of dogmas is because what the hell do you know about what you think you believe? You're not transparent to yourself. Which just seems thoroughly in keeping with a rounded anthropology that some atheists have, like Jonathan Heid, and and all Christians should have, because of what we believe about humankind, and we are self-justifying fools and all that kind of stuff. I think he gets human beings largely correct. So I think that's what people are responding to.
SPEAKER_01Okay. But now he's so he's he's he's being the uncle. He cares, you know, Oprah cares, uh, Dr. Phil cares, Dr. Oz cares. There's no end of, at least in the in the United States scene, in the New Age segment of American spirituality. Well, caring is, you know, gosh, people are falling all over themselves to care. And but but here we have this guy who doesn't go to church. His uh his his answers about some pretty core, I mean, nobody's really pigeonholed him on the virgin birth yet, which which be and would be another fun conversation with him. But the impact he's having is not just that people are cleaning their room, but that people are reading the Bible, and then you know, partially through Jonathan Peugeot, people are, you know, one of the things that I've noted in my meetups is I've got people coming in, and well, they're checking out the Orthodox Church. Now, to get into an evangelical church in America, a lot of evangelical churches, you come in one Sunday, raise your hand, and say, I want to be baptized, and boy, they're gonna grab you and put you in the water fast. Orthodox Church, okay, well, let's start the process of cateches, and you're gonna be doing that for at least a year, and and then maybe we'll consider baptizing you and letting you near the table. So he is he is doing something really interesting that goes beyond kind of a self-help fad. And and for me, when I began to realize this, that that really said, I I want to figure this out. I want to know what is going on in our I want to know what's going on underneath the surface, how you know, okay, people are showing up in church. That's that's way beyond him caring and cleaning up their rooms. So what's that about, do you think?
SPEAKER_02I think one thing would be um Dr. Phil and Oprah and Dr. Oz don't um examine their shadow side, right? They're not doing a lot of integration work with their shadow. So, you know, um, and so this is you know, this is coming from Jung, it's coming from the Bible, it's coming from Solzhenitsyn, but um I I'm not hearing it as much from him, but that certainly, certainly um in his biblical lectures and and certainly in his lectures at University of Toronto, um, that comes across very, very strongly. And and I I think people are gripped by that. I th I and you would you would expect that not to not to create an audience because you'd think, well, I'm I'm no Hitler, and not like that, you know. But there is something, I think there is something about a doctrine of sin that um that really communicates and really resonates with people on a on a very deep level. And if someone who themselves has really been puzzling this this out uh and themselves comes across with that humility that that Jordan Peterson comes across with, um he he has clearly faced down his shadow. He's feeling he's clearly faced down that part of himself that could have been a Nazi guard. Um and when when he says that it's not a trite thing. But when he puts flesh and bones on that kind of statement and and and says, um, yeah, the Nazi evil also resides in my heart. Um wow, I I I do think that makes people sit up and listen in a way that just telling people that they are perfectible, um, you know, largely decent human beings who just need a plan um or just you know just need a bit of affirmation. That's not how we tick. And and and I don't and when I'm constantly bombarded by affirmations, my heart just says, well, if you're constantly affirming, you don't know me. You don't it doesn't work, actually. Um and so you know, the old Lutheran and Reformed pastors would talk about law and gospel, law and gospel. And I and I think um Jordan Peterson does the law very well. Um he needs a bit of gospel as well, but he does the law so well, and I think it just resonates and grips people.
SPEAKER_01And it's you know, another thing that caught my attention was that so I have you know, I I have some wonderful friends who are amazing preachers and pastors in Toronto, and there are plenty of empty seats for free available. And you know, the the Church of England, I'm sure, has plenty. This this message, as you mentioned, the church churches. So I was I was having a conversation with a with a young man from from New York City who's actually been going to a number of conservative reformed churches in New York City, and one of the things one of the complaints that he had was you know, even even in even in Calvinist churches, a a clear a clear articulation of our need is wanting and lacking. And and even when we do so, it it doesn't have the strange appeal that Peterson seems to have managed to do it with. Yesterday in the comment section, someone brought up Mark Driscoll, who of course uh out in Mars Hill in in Seattle, and Driscoll was a very controversial, very popular reformed minister, young, restless, and reformed, and they made a connection between Peterson and Driscoll, and I thought, huh, there's something there too. But but how you know you would think if the church we we've had this stuff for a very long time, and here Peterson comes along, and you know, if if Peterson were if Peterson were talking weekly in a thousand-seat church in Toronto, people would be flying into Toronto to hear him for free in a heartbeat, and they'd line up afterwards to shake his hand. And that's not the case for me. So it's not the case for my friends in Toronto. What what what mojo does Peterson have that the church has lacked? Sorry, question. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I I think there is the pastoral side of things, there's the fact that he cares. I think there is preachers care.
SPEAKER_01I mean, preachers are in the in the in one old song, preachers are quivering masses of availability. I mean, that's part of the problem. Oh, all I care. And and even, you know, you look at I look at you know, a lot of British culture that I see is British comedy. And the you know, the image, the the image of the vicar in in British in British comedy is you know, this guy who sits around and he's just full of emotional availability. He he'll care about anything, especially if you're type.
SPEAKER_02Um niceness is not the same as compassion. And yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So the And Peterson isn't that nice.
SPEAKER_02No, there's a s there's a stern fatherly side of things. And that's so that's why it's an interesting comparison with with Driscoll, because Driscoll's uh yeah, Driscoll complementarian, if you like, on the genders, and and uh Peterson complementarian on masculinity femininity.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, yeah, Driscoll's a shouty Peterson. I don't know, maybe um I don't know. I don't know. I I I think because he clears the clears the ground with the seriousness of our shadow, I I think when he when he lands the the scriptural truths, and when he when he lands things from the Sermon on the Mount, for instance, in Twelve Rules for Life, I think he has he has so diagnosed the problem that I mean this the scriptures it's it's difficult to think of of Christian books where the scriptures land so heavily, where the scriptures actually land in your heart with a kind of a weight that you think uh this is wisdom. Even in Christian books where you would think you know the scriptures would fit in a lot a lot easier. So I guess I'm defaulting back to my my my law answer. He he diagnoses the problem, but I don't know. What do you what do you think?
SPEAKER_01Well Yeah, I and this is you know, so some people think I you know I need to see I'm I myself should see a good psychiatrist, besides psychologist besides Jordan Peterson, because I've I spent over a year trying to figure this guy out. And and part of it is as a pastor, and I I would imagine for you as an evangelist, you would be over the moon if you were getting the kind of attention and traction as Jordan Peterson. If you if you were being asked to be on you know all kinds of TV shows and talk shows, and and I would be over the moon if if my church were brimming, and and you know, there's and and I don't obviously we don't simply see this as popularity, but he's been ironically potentially the most one of the most effective and interesting evangelists of the last I mean he's only been had the attention for a year or two for the last couple of years. And this now a lot of people are gonna doubt that, and there's good reason for doubt. We don't know, we don't know where the buccos, which is just a word I use to because how to describe these followers of Peterson, we don't know where this is going to land with these people. It could be that Peterson ignites a flame, and some people you know say, Oh, I want to be Orthodox, but you know, next week they want to be, you know, who whoever knows what. We don't know if the the basement dwellers are going to actually get out of the basement or if you know this is just their latest YouTube channel. And the end of the the Truman show, that wonderful movie. I mean, the ending of it was everyone's everything's building to the climax, and Truman walks off of the you know, Christoff's sound stage, and then everyone just turns the channel. That could happen with this thing. Yeah, you know, and I'm I'm fully aware of that. But but my you know, my the thing that has dogged me in this has been the poverty, the poverty. Peterson has exposed the poverty of the church in a very compelling way. And that's something that that we should, I think, ponder deeply on. You know, Peterson mentioned in that interview with uh GQ UK, British GQ, whatever they call themselves, you know, he's he's given his his evangelistic crusade slash book tour, you know, he's spoken with, you know, he's spoken to a quarter of a million people in person over the last year or so. He has, you know, when I when he came to Sacramento and they did the VIP, I got someone, someone very generously um offered me a VIP ticket. And so I was early on in the line, and then I sat fairly close to where he was greeting people. And just like he says on in many interviews and and tears up when he says so, people come up to him and you know, hundreds of people, thousands of people come up to him and tearfully say, My life was heading in a bad direction, and you I read your book and I listened to your lectures, and it it put me on a better track, and my life is much better now. There's a there's a power there. Now, obviously, it's it's easy for us as as Christian ministers to theologically diagnose what Peterson is doing and critique it. And I've certainly done plenty of that. And I'll, you know, I'll I'll continue to recognize there's a stoicism in him. We are dragging our own crosses up the hill for Peterson. It isn't it isn't Christ carrying the cross. Now, Christ does admonish us to take up our crosses as well, so there's there's plenty of theological space in there to work, but he has in in some ways, at least in this tiny little moment, exposed the poverty of a good deal of Christian ministry and and done something that that I think we as Christian ministers should stop and give us and cause us to examine ourselves.
SPEAKER_02And what is it? What is he doing that we're not?
SPEAKER_01I'm still figuring that out. I that this is why I've been obsessed with this. I I I want to know what he's doing. I want to know why he's having the impact he's having. And and perhaps part of the that is mercenary on my part because oh, I want to, I want to do what he does. Well, except, you know, the thing was that once I began to realize what was happening, I who am pastor of a very small congregation that is aging and you know very much could look like a number of places in the Church of England. Now suddenly, and and for years, you know, people aren't knocking on my door and sending me emails and asking to have conversations with me. I start trying to work through and diagnose Peterson, and and suddenly I've got you know a queue of people who would love to have a conversation with me. And and what Christian minister doesn't want people coming to them and saying, can we talk about the Bible?
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01I mean, yeah. Um, I'm not sure if that's in my job description. You know, can we talk about the Bible? Can I can we talk about Christianity? Can we talk about, you know, the the creator is the redeemer? Can you know, yes, we can talk about this, but why was it this quirky, rough man from northern Alberta who teaches psychology in Toronto that linked this? And why was it that I could just go to meetup.com and say Jordan Peterson Meetup, and every week have 12 people, many of them for the first time, who are willing to walk into a church and say, I want to talk about Jordan Peterson. And most of the time we're not spending talking about Jordan Peterson, we're talking about all the kinds of things he's raising for them. And those are all the kinds of things that are that sit right in the center of a pastoral plate. So and do you think it might be do you think do you think it might be so prodigal son?
SPEAKER_02So you've got Luke chapter 15. Here's the father, here's the two boys, there's the bad boy, the good boy. Bad boy runs off to the far country, wants to be free, he gets lost, he's in the pig sty, and he he comes up with his pig sty plan. How many of my father's men have more than enough to eat? And here I am starving to death. I will go back to him and I will say, let me be one of your hired men. And I just think that's that's kind of an interesting plan for those who find themselves in a pig style. You know, those those who find themselves in the land of chaos want a course correction, desperate for a course correction, and they want an antidote to chaos. And what they naturally want, though, is um to be a hired man, to be a hired servant. Um and of course this the hired servant relationship is the order relationship, it's the older brother kind of relationship who you know who slaves for the father and that kind of thing. And I I just wonder whether you know part of what we're seeing is is people who are they've they've had enough of the far country, they've they've realized that you know if if if you're lost, the last person you need to find is yourself. You kind of need because finding a lost person is never much help.
SPEAKER_01Um I've never heard phrase that way before or something. I'm gonna keep it. Yeah, all right. Okay, it's yours. Bastards are not only liars, they're also thieves.
SPEAKER_02Where would we be without yeah? So uh and I just I just wonder whether yeah, Peterson is kind of calling calling the younger brothers, you know, home and uh but calling them far more towards the the hired man kind of relationship. And some of them, some of the find are finding the father, yeah, the true father, that that relationship with God as a child and and that and that freedom. And and some of them are finding more order in their life than there was chaos. Um I do wonder with the order and chaos thing, whether in the Bible there's order and there's chaos and there's grace. And I wonder I I I don't think either order or chaos are the grace option. And whether whether part of part of the job. So I was talking to a guy um just up in Newcastle, I was preaching, and he was one of these guys who was saying, Yeah, I need to take more responsibility for my life. Turns out he's a massive Peterson fan. And we just we just sat down and had a look at Luke chapter 15, um, and just the the fact that it's much better if you're in a pig style to want to be a hired man, but it's even better to be a child in the household. Right. And that that seemed to kind of resonate with him, and that that's what I'm sort of trying to do. But that's that's me diagnosing what's lacking in Peterson. Whereas you're asking the much more interesting question, which is how is he diagnosing what we're lacking in the church?
SPEAKER_01And that's a that's a totally exposing what we're lacking. That's the key. I mean, the church is he he is exposing the church. And and this isn't, you know, he's not exposing the church in terms of you know the uh Roman Catholic pedophile scandal. He's exposing the church in its in its weakness, in its and and not in its weakness like Christ's weakness. He's exposing the church in its in its banality and its worthlessness. And yeah. And and that, you know, so I think of, and you know, when I think about, you know, so I was also thinking about the the parable of the prodigal son. The the younger son is the is the son who goes away. Well, let's say the younger son comes back and becomes the older brother. Well, I you know, I love Tim Keller's sermon on the prodigal son, because here here's the irony is that, well, okay, maybe you do clean your room, maybe you do get that job, maybe you do marry the the girl that you've been taking years of her her her life from, and maybe you now marry her and you have children, and okay, now you become the now you become the elder brother. Well, as Tim Keller's great sermon notes, that brother needs gospel too, because there are two different ways to be your own savior and Lord. So, you know, I I I very much understand the limitations of, you know, Peterson doesn't even use the word gospel, and I understand the limitations of his message, but something is happening here that I think we as a church need to pay attention to. And I haven't figured it out yet. I do believe, and and and maybe again, maybe a couple of years from now, Peterson gets a daytime talk show, and bit by bit by bit his rough edge wears off. I don't know if that'll happen. He'll he'll be a he'll be a Megan Kelly. He'd be if he's on daytime TV, he can't contain himself that long. He will he'll say something to someone and he'll get fired from ABC. That's just what'll happen. But
SPEAKER_02Yes. No, without without a doubt. I've heard him describe, you know, he's on a hundred foot wave, and he can see very few ways that this will end well. Which yeah, he has he has such stunning kind of self-awareness with that. I think one of the things he exposes about the church is he just routinely says a whole bunch of stuff that we had assumed was unsayable. And we we thought we couldn't possibly say that. And if we did, we would lose any kind of credibility in audience. And he just says it and then doubles down on it and triples down on it and wins the audience.
SPEAKER_01But there are jerk pastors out there, and maybe you don't have many of them in the UK. We have plenty in the US who go on all the time to say offensive things, things, things that might be you know quite true, but they don't have the impact that Peterson has. I mean, they're just everyone just knows them as jerks. So nobody, you know, the news group, you know, uh Westboro Baptist gets press coverage.
SPEAKER_03But none of us family, though, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01None of us want to identify with Westboro Baptist for lots of good reasons.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01We don't believe that they, you know, I don't believe that they in any way express the gospel of Jesus Christ in what they do.
SPEAKER_02No. No, no, not even.
SPEAKER_01I have not figured it out. And I know the Jungians will be out there and they'll say, well, obviously, I mean, they're waiting in some in some cases for you know the second coming of Carl Jung as their savior. And you can find Carl Jung's grave.
SPEAKER_02Is yes, yes. Is Peterson the one, or should we expect another? Yeah.
unknownI don't know.
SPEAKER_01I know that's gonna take some people off in my uh in my following, but that's been and and so what I you know what I really what this so at one point I have a meetup and we had about 30 people in for a meetup, and somebody asked me, are were more people here, were more people here for the Jordan Peterson meetup than we're here for church this morning? And I thought, no. But if if this trend line keeps going, that might happen. And if so, what? And and so then it it really leads me to ask hard questions about what you know how if if so then I start traveling around, I start helping other people launch meetups in other cities in California. And again, I have no idea the shelf life this thing is gonna have. I have no idea how much enduring interest he is going to have. I have no idea how much long-term impact he will have in people's lives. It's way too early to know any of that. But it does lead me to ask questions about how what we should be learning from him in terms of understanding how to talk about Jesus in this present context. Some people say, well, he doesn't talk about Jesus. No, he does, he does talk about Jesus. He we might say Jesus is Lord, but we're saying ripping off a slogan from the first century. You know, we're ripping off the Roman Emperor slogan. Roman Emperors, they're not a lot of them around anymore. He, in a sense, is is doing something in the present context. And when he says Jesus is at the top, you know, Jesus is the archetype of the perfect human being. I've never I never had a thought of saying it that way. And that way is connecting with people. And I don't want to just be a me too evangelist that says, oh, all the young kids are doing music or movies, the kind of the kind of preacher you you know used to resent to go listen to. So I I really and and I don't I don't think the best way to go about this is kind of the what's in the evangelical hip pocket, which is oh, Jordan Peterson is bringing a crowd. Let's all kind of go with the flow, and then we'll cap it off with, oh, and then Jesus, and here's here's baptism. Well, that ain't gonna work either. That is not gonna work. So I I don't know. I don't know, and that's why I'm talking to people because yeah, I I learn from people.
SPEAKER_02And it's not uh but it's not Jesus smuggling with with Peterson, which is sort of the line that Douglas Murray kind of uh brought up in in um one of the debates. It's not Jesus smuggling because it's it's this ground up, it's this cathedral like vision for reality. Um that you know the your average evangelical kind of uh uh approach to evangelism is look, here's the leaflet. Here's the here's the here's the thumbnail plan. And this is in in as low resolution as possible. Let me download the data on you that you can get. So it's it's it's giving you it's giving you the the the leaflet that describes a thumbnail of a plan of the cathedral. And and Peterson's approach is let me just in a really meandering way. And and how long are you got? You got three hours? Come on in. And you know, and I don't I don't know why we spent all that time in the crypt, but he's into it. And so and passion communicates, right? And and and and it's giving you this vision, and you don't understand the cathedral, you have no idea how this bit relates to that bit, but he seems to think it does. Yeah, and if and I and I and you need to watch about 15 different videos to kind of to to come on board.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_02Um, but that but that is how humans tick, right? It's yes, it's kind of you know, it's it's the difference between you know watching the wire when you you're like you're watching the first four episodes of The Wire, and you're like, I have no idea who these people are, I can't understand this Baltimore accent, but I'm gripped. I don't know why I'm gripped, I don't know where this is going. And you're tempted to just like look up Wikipedia and like, who is this guy again and how is he related to this person? And and but but but the wire is a lot more how people like tick than the Wikipedia page. That's right. And so much of my tribe does the Wikipedia page and just tries to boil things down to as as as simplistically as you can. And you know, so I uh I've uh I've got this I've got a gospel outline called 321. Um and it uh it might sound like it's um a simplistic thing, because I walk you through in three steps. Okay, here's the gospel. But step number one, um, God is a loving union of three. So it's trinity. Okay, let's let's dive deeply into that. This is not the I'm I'm not starting with the simple stuff. Okay, here's Trinity. And then and then two is Adam and Christ, you know, not the most obvious thing to then go to. And then one is uh you're one with Adam, be one with Christ. Um so I mean these I I did not pick the three simplest doctrines in order to to do this thing, but I I I actually think persuasion is is not so much the stepping stone thing. I don't think it's trying to like have stepping stones from your house to my house, and I don't think it's about throwing stones at your house. I basically think it's it's about like throwing open the doors and saying, come on over. I know from the outside this thing looks a mess and it it it looks really weird, and you know, I know you've heard the the you know the the residents of the house squabbling upstairs, and I know we haven't done the best job, but but can I just give you the grand tour? Um and it it is the it's the cathedral tour, it's the it's it's the meandering life is more weird and wonderful than you'd ever imagined. Um that people love and they're responding to when all the time what we want to do is download the little 90 seconds thing on people. So I think that's that's part of that's part of it. I think he gets our anthropology right. And we ought to get, you know, we ought to have a more rounded anthropology like that. But I think we've been far too enlightenment and people like Height and and Peterson are calling us on that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I I think part of it too is he he is himself quite clearly embodying the hero. I mean, the status rocket that he's been on since since 2016. And and I think people see that and they want to emulate it. I think that's deep within us. And I think that's I think that's part of his attraction. But yeah, there's I again people will have problems with when I this when I say it, but I I do believe God is doing something powerful through him. And you know, I did a video a couple days ago on the the unauthorized um exorcist, yeah. Mark 9. And that, you know, and and so the disciples are like, you know, who who is who why why is he doing that using your name, Jesus? Let's stop him. Let's that's that's right, let's stop him because we don't want those people getting, you know, having those demons cast out and not having our little stamp of approval on it. And and Jesus says, you know, leave him alone.
SPEAKER_02Leave him alone. Yeah. And he's not against us.
SPEAKER_01And and I think about, you know, I think about you know the last chapter of the Gospel of John when when Jesus is is dealing with Peter, and Peter looks over at John and says, Hey, hey, what about him? And and Jesus says, you know, what's that, you know, what's that to you? You follow me. And I think Jesus says that to his church, you know, with respect to Peterson. You know, if I want to use, if I want to use Jordan Peterson to see, I I had been seeing a lot of one-way traffic going down the Sam Harris Road or or some other roads, and and saying, once people start going down that road, they don't come back again to the church. And what happened after Jordan Peterson was people start coming back, and it's like, huh. I didn't think the spirit of God could do that. And and but what I really didn't think was that the spirit of God could use someone that looked like that to do that. And and it's really threatening in the church when we say, you know, the spirit of God can use someone who is unauthorized, someone who won't go to church, someone who has some pretty critical things to say to the church. And I think, yeah, when when we start believing that we're you know, we've we've made ourselves into idols and and we no longer are in fact servants of our great Lord. And when the Lord says, I'm gonna do this, we say, Yes, Lord, I you know, I will I will be with you wherever you go. So I don't know.
SPEAKER_02That's that's what I'm saying. Yeah, whoever gets the credit, yeah, and we we will rejoice. It was interesting. Uh on the day I went to see um Jordan Peterson up in up in Oxford, Facebook reminded me that six years ago to the day um I was up in Oxford debating the chief executive of the British Humanist Association, and uh it was a really interesting and brilliant event, and I loved doing it, but it was very much he, you know, he's uh a friend of Dawkins, and he's he's very much in that mold. Andrew Cobson is his name, and um and there was the the Oxford branch of the Atheist and Secular Humanists Association was there, and we had some fantastic conversations, but that was the 2012 moments, and that was that was the kind of faith, non-faith dialogue that was being had. And then it was just so interesting that six years to the day, I was back in Oxford, and I was thinking to myself, I reckon so many of the same people who were in that crowd for that debate would be in this theater listening to Jordan Peterson and how times have changed and how the conversation has moved on.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But I just wonder which one is the blip. Yeah. Because no, I think maybe the new atheist thing was the blip. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um for a number of reasons. Uh obviously I don't think they get God right, but also I just don't think they get people right. Yeah. And you can't you can't last for very long if you don't get people right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, and I think that kind of an enlightenment rationality thing, yeah, it's it just it has to run out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know?
SPEAKER_01Well, we've been going on for about an hour. Any any last things you wanted to get in that we that we didn't that we didn't talk about?
SPEAKER_02I'm just gonna have to keep watching you, Paul, for for giving me the answers that I want. Like, yeah, what is it? What's he what's he doing that we're not?
SPEAKER_01But um I I don't know. And and again, it's to me it's the Truman Show fascination because it's I was so happy to see that, see that interview with um with GQ, Brit British GQ, because I I hadn't watched I hadn't watched a Jordan Peterson interview and had that much fun in a long time. And it seemed like well, there he's you know, he's the poor, the poor beef eater is uh is wearing down with all this stuff, but he still got some fight in him. And she was she was a wonderful conversation partner and a wonderful challenger because she could, you know, she didn't she didn't get upset, she didn't get defensive, she held her ground and they were able to challenge each other, and and it was terrific. But I I I do I do believe God is doing something with this. And my desire would be that that more in the church could stop feeling like John and Mark 9 and say, you know, oh, oh, he should he should stop and and rather listen to their Lord and say, I'm you know, I am I am I I am Jesus and I am Lord and I will deal with Jordan Peterson as I see fit and I will use him as I see fit. You must follow me. Right. And and when I see and what I want, what I desperately want is that people who listen to Jordan Peterson, and well, they can't reach him because you know how they're gonna talk to the guy because he's got all this, he's his status rocket has taken them out of reach for them. But what I desperately want is that these people can find, can go to a church and meet a pastor who's not going to blow them off, and I hear those stories all the time, and and actually begin to find the church to be helpful. Helpful in terms of they're coming to the church and saying, I don't really know a lot about the Bible. And so for the church to figure out how to talk about the Bible in a helpful way for them, yeah. And have the church come alongside them and they say, you know, I've got these, you know, I've got these addiction challenges, I've got these behavioral challenges, and what I really need is someone who cares and supports and for the church to be able to come around and be helpful. Because, you know, Billy Graham, you know, was wise enough, you know, he had his moment in the you know, in the 50s and 60s, but he brought the church with him and tried to at least mobilize the church. And I find churches often hostile to Peterson on the right and on the left. And my prayer is that the church will stop and say, Hey, people are coming to you and saying, I want to learn about the Bible. What's so hard about this? Maybe shut up a little bit when they talk about the Bible and figure out, well, what might be helpful for them? What are the questions they are actually asking? And have a conversation with them. Don't be the don't be the know-it-all answer man older brother. When the older brother comes back into the fold, don't sit outside in the field and say, So that's that's my prayer. That's my prayer in all this.
SPEAKER_02Right. Because how how does the father respond to the returning boy? He runs to him, throws his arms around him, throws the feast, and he doesn't let him ask to be the slave. That's right. I love I love that. When he when he practices the speech, that's right. He says, he practices the speech and he says, Let me be one of your hired men. That's right. But then when he comes to give the speech, the father cuts him off. You know, I don't want a slave. No, I want a son, I want a boy. And then what Peterson then, I think, helps you with is I I often imagine the next day, you know, the the next day the prodigal son kind of waking up and just sort of padding down to the kitchen, and and there's dad making some eggs, and and uh, you know, the younger son says, you know, Dad, about last night, I'm and about this whole thing, I'm really sorry, and the father just says, Shut up and eat your eggs. And then you know, at some point the the son says, you know, you know, what do you want to do today, Dad? And dad says, I don't know, what do you want to do today? And and off you go. And and then it's the embodied logos. It's the it's what you want to do now as this freed son. Right.
SPEAKER_01Um Well, and actually I think the father will say, Well, son, you know, I um sold a third of my property when you took it to the far-off country. So let's go out to the field and the um, you know, they're calving today. So let's get out there with the workmen.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And let's do the let's let's do our work in this earth.
SPEAKER_02Totally. And I yeah, I I totally think that like you know, one of one of the things I think Jordan Peterson fears about Protestants is that we we won't have a work ethic, which I don't know, you know, historically we we seem to have managed a work ethic, but it's it's it's like that's I think his fear is that the gospel kind of removes. That's right.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, Calvinists don't know anything about guilt, have you?
SPEAKER_02You're a psychologist, you sound like you know, my my thing is that you know like the the shift from the old testament to the new testament is not that you have, you know, one day in seven is rest, and then in the new testament is seven days in seven rest. It's the shift of in the old testament, you work towards that day of rest. In the new testament, you begin with rest. That's right. Like the first day of the week, day off. Enjoy the Lord. Now let's walk out into the world. And those 12 rules for life might prove really helpful as you you know from that place of rest. Out you go. But um that's right.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank thank you so much. Now stay on the line. I'm gonna stop the recording, but thank you so much for taking the time to talk. And you know, I I you know I I I praise God for your ministry, and I I would I would love nothing better than to see you be at least as effective as Jordan Peterson. I'm not sure I want that job. I really, I really don't.
SPEAKER_02The dude looks tired.
SPEAKER_01Well, well, thank you very much, Glenn.
SPEAKER_02Really appreciate your ministry. Love watching your videos.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for you. Thank you for all you do. Well, we hope you enjoyed that uh insightful interview there. We've got more to come over the next few weeks. I believe next week we're going to be hearing from an interview between Glenn and Esther O'Reilly again on a on a similar topic of Jordan Peterson. Apologies if you're not a Jordan Peterson fan, but clearly this guy has uh shaken up uh the Christian world a little bit in the last year or so, even with himself not being a Christian, he's certainly got people interested in Christian things and in the Bible. So he's been a bit of a topic in the last year or so for us, but fear not. Uh, in the weeks following that, there will be other things as well. So we hope you've enjoyed that. We hope you enjoy what's to come. Uh look after yourselves. We trust that you've not been blown away or washed away by the great British summertime weather. Um, of course, um some of you might not be listening in Britain, but anyway, we hope you're enjoying the summer and we'll clock in again next week. Take care. Bye bye now.