Hello, Glenn Scrivener here. Paul Feasy is away at New Wine. He's camping together with his family there. And we're praying that he's not getting rained on every day. But I'm sure he's having a great time there at New Wine. I am here just by myself. I'm about to introduce to you an interview that I have uh recorded with Dan Strange, Dr. Daniel Strange, who has written a terrific book about engaging the culture. We're about to hear that interview between myself and Dan Strange. The book is called Plugged In, and it's about how we can both confront and connect with the culture around us, how we can wear biblical spectacles to see the culture in true biblical perspective and then speak into that culture in ways of subversive fulfillment. What is subversive fulfillment? Well, listen in, and you'll hear Dan Strange uh talk about how we both confront the culture and connect with the culture and its deepest desires. Before we listen to that, uh love to um make known to you uh another podcast that is available uh from Speak Life. Do you know about reading between the lines? Reading Between the Lines is my attempt to go through the Bible in 365 little five-minute bite-sized chunks. I basically take a phrase each day that is passed into common pilots and use those phrases as jumping off points for teaching about Jesus from all the scripture. So we start with in the beginning in Genesis and we finish with Hallelujah in Revelation. And in between, we show the great sweep of scripture and how Jesus is at the center. So search for reading between the lines wherever you get your podcasts, and we hope that that podcast really blesses you in your daily walk with Christ. Uh if you'd like to support us here at Speak Life, we would really appreciate it. Uh there are many ways that you can give. Uh, if you're overseas or even if you're in the UK, you can give tax efficiently. If you're in the UK, you can go to speaklife.org.uk slash give, and there are loads of ways uh that you can give there. Uh or if you want to take part in a special promotion, uh there is an opportunity to win a free ebook. Uh all you have to do is give a donation of any kind going to speaklife.org.uk slash foundry. Foundry, that's F O U N D R Y. And that will support our new internship that's starting in September, the internship that we're getting very excited about. Six uh new guys coming along uh from New Zealand and America and Britain. And uh between us, uh, we are going to really raise our game in terms of uh producing content that will bless the church and reach the world. If you want to support us, go to speaklife.org.uk and find ways there. But uh without further ado, I'd love to hand over to this interview that I've done with Dan Strange. I hope you enjoy it very much, and uh, we'll see you next time. God bless. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_01I am here with Dr. Daniel Strange, author of Plugged In, Connecting Your Faith with What You Watch, Read, and Play. Thanks for joining us here at Speak Life. It's great to be here, Glenn. Thank you. Brilliant. And uh the foreword by Tim Keller, you must have been very, very thrilled with this. He said, There really is nothing else like this book. And I suppose, you know, as an author, you write a book because you feel that there's a gap in the market. But but what what is it that has been kind of influencing you as you try to think about connecting Christian faith with the culture around us? What books have influenced you?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, I wanted to do something that was kind of uh try to be as practical and accessible as possible. So I think there's lots of written about the relationship between Christ and culture, but does it get down to the nitty-gritty everyday kind of stuff that we do? A lot of it's kind of quite esoteric. And it was saying, I mean, this is a course that um I've been teaching at Oak Hill for 10 years, which is saying um, you know, uh that the the assessment of which is give do a cultural analysis of anything that you want to, and I've had the weird, the wonderful over the years, and to give some kind of method as as to how we might do that, to show that everything that human beings do communicates their um their worldview, how they want to make a home for themselves, and that has religious significance. So I suppose I'm I'd you'd say I'm in the kind of um Dutch reformed tradition of understanding who we are as human beings, the fact that God's revealed himself, we've rebelled against that, and um what that means for the interaction between the gospel and our culture. Um, and so that the book is trying to explore. I I I would hope that the nothing else like this book is something about the the practicality of saying to everyone, every Christian, hey, you can do this, you need to, you can take the the glasses that the book gives you and say, Yeah, I can understand something of culture in a way that's going to um impact my evangelism, but as much as impact my discipleship, what does it mean to follow the way? What does it mean to follow Christ in a Christian way? Um, so that's that's what's behind the book, really.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you you say that uh there are kind of four reasons why we want to engage with culture. For a start, we are surrounded by culture, you cannot escape culture, you you you could be Amish, but that's a culture of itself. Um we care about our own discipleship, we want to honor Christ and how we live and help others to do likewise. Uh we care about telling others about Jesus so that they become disciples. So I guess that's that's an evangelistic thrust there. Uh, and then you've got this interesting phrase: as his ambassadors and vice regents, we care about Jesus' lordship over everything. Uh why does that make us want to plug into culture?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because I so I think it this goes back to the idea of a concept called the cultural mandate back in Genesis where uh we've been created in the image of God, we're not God, but we're created in the image of God. And so I think the the role of having dominion to fill and subdue the earth, and um, it's kind of recognizing that the the idea of an image or an icon in the ancient Near East was that you had an icon that you kind of which staked the claim for the God that you believed in. So as Christians, we are staking a claim for Christ's lordship in all the world, uh, the God who has uh created us. And so uh that's why I think there's so many um descriptions in the Bible law, in the New Testament, especially, about taking every thought captive for Christ. We are disciples of him. So when we become Christians, we kind of uh take up that um that calling again to um fill and subdue. Now, of course, uh we we we that can only be done, and that's where the kind of the cultural mandate and the Great Commission kind of wonderfully interplay together, because to take up that claim again, to take up that dominion, people need to be converted. They need to turn from idols to the living God, and so that's why I um I mean the book doesn't really explore this much, but I I think it's a given that the whole kind of um I don't know, evangelism and discipleship, or you know, those big things that we make issues for ourselves in which comes first, they all they all go together. People need to be converted when they've been converted, then they need to fill and subdue the earth under Christ's lordship.
SPEAKER_01You you say on page 88, you know, why aren't we telling better stories with all the same realism, imagination, subtlety, complexity, and beauty that the culture is? Um, and uh you don't spend a lot of time in in terms of creating culture in this, but but what why is why is it that you think that you know the the kind of waters that we swim in, reformed evangelical circles, uh we don't have a great reputation for for being patrons of the arts, even though the church historically has been the greatest patron of the arts that the world has ever seen. Where have we gone wrong?
SPEAKER_03I think we've there's been a kind of a um a diminished doctrine of creation um uh and almost a sole focus on on the new creation, but I I mean for me salvation is about um uh is is is grace restoring and perfecting creation. Um and so it's the kind of it's both the going back and the going forwards. And I'm not I I wonder whether we've we've had um uh yeah, so uh a kind of diminishing of adoption of creation. And then I think um an anthropology, an understanding of who we are as as human beings. Um now again the the phrase is is often used, and I you know we can use it through about that, you know, we kind of have an anthropology that sees us as being brains on sticks. And I don't, and in no way do I want to uh diminish the intellect or the life of the mind, or that that's so important, but we're more than simply the intellect, and this idea of a holistic anthropology that says the heart is at the center of the human person, and that includes the intellect and the emotion and the will and the imagination, especially, and that's where um I think and I I wonder whether in in intellectually the circles that we swim in, um, there maybe there has been a uh an over-rationalization of what apologetics and discipleship looks like. Now, I I mean I I want to be careful there because I I I I still think, you know, I believe as as I know you do, we believe in apologetics, we believe in persuasion, we believe in argument, and yet the way that we can put those arguments are as as expansive as the the human heart. Um you know, giving a reason for the hope that we have, and I I I do make this point in the book, giving reasons is not simply a dry intellectual, it's about relationship, it's about it's about um engaging people in all of their faculties, which I know that you know you're passionate about in terms of um uh song and um uh poetry and you know all of those wonderful things. And that's where I wonder whether we just haven't engaged, we we've been unimaginative or less than imaginative.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So partly it's our anthropology, we're brains on sticks, we're we're Homo sapiens instead of Homo Adorans, which you make a case for in the book. You know, we are men who love, um, even before we are the wise men. Um, and so yeah, partly it's our anthropology, and and perhaps partly it's kind of this this reactive where we are kind of against culture. Um, we we simply want to confront culture. Um, that's that's kind of our uh our knee-jerk reaction. Uh, but you you make a case in the book that you want to confront and connect with culture. Yes, sort of what we what that means.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and yeah, I think um well, just on that other point, so we've made a kind of uh an anthropological point. There's in theologians would also talk about a kind of an eschatological point, as in I do what I do think salvation is being delivered, it's being delivered from the wrath to come, it's being delivered from hell, but salvation is not simply a get out of hell free card, as in we we fought Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and we follow the way is not simply an entry point or a destination, we are to follow the way, and that means um uh what does it mean to be a Christian? What does it mean? If if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has begun. Jesus Christ is the first fruits of the new creation, and we see what that means now in so many amazing ways. Um I think I think one of the things that's that's struck me, and I'm still trying to work it out, is um uh Jesus says if if if anyone would follow me, they need to take up their cross. And the the Christian life is a sacrificial, cross-shaped life, but then Jesus in a few chapters later says, Um, you know, you uh you will receive homes and mothers and fathers now and eternal life. And what does what does that mean? And my worry is that we've had um an under an overly underrealised eschatology, uh now, of course, I I don't believe that this is now the new heaven and the new earth. I mean, I'd be worried if it was, um, but the inbreaking now and what that means for our cultural endeavours now, and what that means for the Christian life now. So that's why the the confronting and and connecting comes in, because I think if we just take that view that we are simply confronting, but we are to connect because there is continuity, there's always continuity, and I'm this is why I try to stress theologically in the book. I mean, I talk a lot about idolatry. The great thing about idolatry is that idolatry is parasitic, it's always taking a good thing and making it into a god thing, and so that you know, whether you say, you know, the devil has no no news stories or whatever, uh, even the most what we think as godless culture will always have a uh um uh a root in something that is good and creational, and you know, it's difficult to explain because how do you understand this conception of suppressed truth? And what does suppressed truth mean? But that's what exactly what it means. So whether it's in we see in Acts 17 or in 1 Corinthians 1 that I talk about in the book, it's always saying that in whenever we are um engaging in in culture, there will always be both affirmation and denunciation at the same time, and it's trying to get that kind of how you do both of those things at the same time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, and yeah, how how you bring those two passages in particular together is is fascinating. So you you you begin your chapter on confronting and connecting. Um uh well you you talk about sort of 1 Corinthians 1 and and um that whole the the wisdom of the cross that sort of is is a no to the the Jews who demand power and the the Greeks who demand wisdom. Um, but he also says yes later because he is the wisdom of God and he is the power of God. So there's a kind of a no and a yes. And then it comes across to sort of Acts 17, um, and he seems to be saying, it depends on how you translate it. He says, you know, you men of Athens, you're very superstitious, religious, whatever, you know, what whatever that is. But he certainly is happy quoting their poets uh and then redeeming that and and preaching the gospel, even if he quotes whoever he quotes, Euratus and whoever else he quotes epimetic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um but I guess maybe maybe is that the the pattern though? It's a kind of a no and a yes, it's a cross and a resurrection, a law and a gospel is a pattern.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and and I think some of us, because of our own personality, our own upbringing, our own culture, Christian culture with which we inhabit, some of us instinctively go to the no first or the yes first, and then we have to kind of do the we do it. I think there is a kind of a we out we we probably have a default that either kind of confronts or connects most naturally. What I think we try need to try to do is to try and make make us make sure that we're doing both at the same time. And I certainly don't want to give the impression, you know, the great thing about Act 17, if you're worried that some of this stuff is a bit kind of, you know, oh it's too affirmatory or kind of, you know, too kind of uh feelies, Paul starts that starts Act 17 by having this paroxysm over idolatry. So he's really disturbed by it, and at the end he calls people to repentance. If you have those two booking bookends and they're kind of there, then whatever happens in the middle, however contextual he is, however much he's kind of engaging in the culture, those bookends make sure that we are still calling people to turn from idolatry and repent.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But but but in the middle, there's this incredible contextual engagement of looking at people's objects of worship, um uh uh quoting from their poets, uh um but uh so it is that that kind of both and, and certainly, you know, um in the 1 Corinthians 1 passage, it is saying uh as you said, it's saying Christ is power and Christ is wisdom, but in pr in exactly the opposite way that the world thinks, and that's why this phrase that a kind of this mystiologist Hendrik Kramer uses that the gospel is both that is subversive fulfillment, it's both subversion and fulfillment at the same time. And in some ways, that's um deep enough and complex enough to think I'm gonna spend my whole life trying to work out what that means and all the nuances and sophistication that that means in a way that both says no and yes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Can we can we earth this in like an example of subversive fulfillment saying no and yes? Um saying no to the culture in the incarnation at which it's wants to present its object of worship to us, but then yes to the the deeper desire behind that. Um I've got an idea of third on the top of my head, but what you you you go with an option that you've uh you you've thought about.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, uh that this is all from uh some of this is from my kind of uh students who give great examples, but one example that I've been thinking about, which is surrounds this whole area of of superstition superstition. So we're told that we live in a very kind of disenchanted world, but we know that on the ground superstition is all over the place. So the example that that was given was um someone who works in in an office where you must never say the phones are quiet, because if you say the phones are quiet, it means the phones are gonna get busy and you'll have a busy shift. So, and I saw this was one example, and then we have a guy at Oak Hill who's a policeman who said that's completely true. On the radio, you never say it's you all say it's Q tonight. You never say the word quiet, because if you say quiet, it'll get there's a some kind of malevolent force that's gonna make the that makes things really busy, and then you realise it's in it's in an um emergency, it's in hospitals, it's all over the place, this kind of quiet phenomenon. And it's the idea that there is some kind of force that makes things happen. Now, we do not but now, of course, in in other religions, the whole idea of spirits and djinn and evil eyes are all over the place, but in our so-called kind of disenchanted world, it's pretty enchanted. People do live by this suspicion all the time, and we're going to be saying, as Christians, we don't believe in malevolent impersonal forces, we believe in a loving heavenly father. We do we don't believe that we're kind of just robots, we believe we're accountable, and yet we believe in a God who is sovereign. So, what we're doing is kind of we're bringing rich Christian theology, which you know, about sovereignty and human responsibility to the everyday lives of the people who get really cross with their colleagues because they've said quiet.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right. I remember having a great conversation um uh with uh at Southgate, playing cricket um for Southgate when I was studying at Oak Hill, uh, which is situated in in North London in Southgate, and um it was a conversation about all the different superstitions that every single batsman had. And and everyone had something. You know, somebody had a red handkerchief in their pocket, somebody always wore their jumper inside out because they once scored 100 when they had their you know jump inside out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Always had to cross the rope backwards, like when he when he went out to bat. He always had to spin around, and and it was just very interesting, like talking about the crossover between superstition and religious thinking and scrupulosity and idolatry.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And because I guess we all we all want to control the world, control the universe through our own actions. And I guess this is another thing to bring to bear, because that's that's the law, isn't it? You know, what can I do to secure my destiny? Actually, you idiot, with your with your jumper inside out and your you know, your red handkerchief, you're still gonna get bowled for a duck.
SPEAKER_03Um exactly, exactly. And the the interesting thing is um, you know, even at a kind of a corporate level, I remember reading so the week of the Champions League final with Pochettino. Pochettino is famously suspicious, and he has this uh or superstitious, he has this um, he has in his in his office, so this is a uh, you know, you think about the sports psychology, the business kind of technicality of a major Premier League team. You go into Pochettino's office and there's a bowl of lemons on his desk because he believes in this universal energy that if people come in with negative energy, the energy goes into the lemons. So he changes the lemons every four to five days.
SPEAKER_01When life gives you lemons, yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03And people say, and people say, Oh, we live in a disenchanted world. I mean, it's not it's it is differently enchanted, and I think that's because we are not as human beings, for for how however much you have your Stephen Fry or Richard or Christopher Hitchens or Dawkins, people do not find it easy to live in a live in a world where they think there is nothing, and that however you know the secular is really haunted, and I think you know that that taps into the rich anthropology that the Bible tells us that you know we are we are religious.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing, they believe in anything, the GK Chester line. How would how would you kind of use that in evangelism? Let's let's say that you're in a conversation and somebody just says something and then says, touch wood, or whatever. Like, like, in what in what direction would you be seeking to nudge the conversation? Yeah, so I th I think Yeah, go on. Because you could because you could say, well, that's just ridiculous. You don't really believe that, do you? Um, but how would you do it kind of sensitively and in a gospel shape?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I would I would want to gently explore, and again, this is why I think a lot of our apologetics and evangelism has to be done in the context of relationship, and because especially as you reach those things, those kinds of uh commitments that people have, the more you get to them, the more cherished they are, and the more people feel kind of they don't, you know, they find it hard to talk about them, but you'd want to tease out what's behind that. And I again I think the whole thing you've pointed to, Glenn, is this idea of control, people wanting to feel in control of their lives and not wanting to feel out of control. And that leads to all kinds of habits and addictions and all kinds of issues that that people have. And I would be wanting to explore that and then you know, try to wait for the opportunity or try to, you know, guide the conversation round to people asking me about, you know, what who what do I think about my own life? Do I think I'm I'm in control? Um, what do I believe is what do I believe that um in terms of uh is there a God or you know, and trying to get again trying to get people then to get to uh talk about Christ. And I and I do think um that what I'm working on, starting to work on, I hinted it in the book, what the one theologian I found really helpful is this guy called J. H. Babbing, who's a missiologist, who talks about human beings having these magnetic points, kind of the same kind of questions that keep coming up all the time about who we are as human beings, what's gone wrong. And what I'm trying to do is to show how Jesus Christ, Jesus is the answer to all of these things that human beings struggle with all the time, whether it's kind of sovereignty and responsibility or the idea of connection or the need for deliverance, and it is trying to show how you know we as Philip says to the Ethiopian, or as as Luke records, Philip saying to the Ethiopian, we we offer Jesus, and Jesus Christ is big enough to kind of answer all of these human questions that are these perennial questions. So, in terms of conversation, you're always wanting to have to get to the opportunity where you can say something of Christ and offer Christ.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant. Let me let me press you on a couple of other um kind of cultural examples and we'll see how this there might be a subversive fulfillment and the offer of Christ at the end of it. I'll give you uh a more trivial one and then a more serious one. The more the more trivial one, uh somebody, uh Duncan Hollands on Twitter has asked get Dan to talk about park runs. Why has parkrun become so popular? And then I'll ask you the more serious one. Um Pete Jackson, uh, who you might know as well, uh, would love some direction on how do we how do we talk about the the issue of abortion in our culture? Um is there any way of doing a subversive fulfillment? Actually, Jesus in his way gives you what you're most looking for with that example. So I I prepped you. Um I'll give you the easier option first, Park Runs, and then we can solve the whole pro-life issue.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, okay, okay, okay, the order, part one. Uh well Duncan Holland, who's currently one of my I'm I'm his tutor, so it's a little bit naughty if you put it there. Um part one. I mean, I mean, I do part, I think the interesting thing about part one is obviously that there is something about um uh this um fitness kind of epidemic in terms of healthy and looking after the body, which is a you know, is a good thing. What's interesting is it if you look into the the way that park one talks about itself, there is something more than simply let's just go for a run. There is people who are talking about something holistic. The idea of community, you know, the stress is when we've done the parkrun, we're gonna go to the cafe and we're gonna spend time together. That it definitely is a communal space for people to um meet up. What's interesting is it parkrun is for everyone, but as I look around and look at the demographic, and again, I I've got no stats to back this up, it does seem to be quite a um quite a middle class phenomenon, I think. Um in terms of does it does it does it really have a social range that that you would want in comparing it to what, for example, the church should be. But I I think there is something communal there, and um as well as all the other things. I've I've had a number of students doing essays on on park ones, and it's quite it's quite a um it's becoming quite a mature phenomenon now. Um but yeah, I I would want to stress this idea of commun community and park ones seems to be important. Um, that I'm part of something bigger.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um does seem to be, you know, it's a it's a version of any kind, you know. I go and watch West Ham or you go to go to a music conference, you know, Bavink talks about this um this idea of connection or totality. We want to feel as if we're part of something bigger. Um, and that seems to be all the rage at the moment in terms of marches we can go on or petitions that would that we can uh that we can sign, this idea that we're connected to something. Um and I think that's ripe for kind of um um talking about in terms of what you know what we are connected to, uh what we could be connected to in terms of Jesus and his kingdom and what that means um for um that. In terms of the abortion issue, in terms of understanding what life and dignity and personhood, I mean, I mean, that that's all gonna be very uh very obvious kind of things. In that sense, it's you know, you don't have to do that much of a subtle subversive fulfillment. It is a it's pretty pretty direct. Um you you help me though here.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I'm trying to think of how how you might so Pete Jackson, uh so his particular question is I'd love to hear him comment on some pro-life abortion issues, e.g., why he thinks there hasn't been more pro-life speaking in action from UK evangelicals compared, for example, with US. Um that's one issue we can we can.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But but I certainly in in my speaking, yeah, you you want to connect with that desire that Dr. Zeus says a person's a person no matter how small. You agree with that, don't you? A person's a person no matter how small. Well, let's just take that on and and and kind of uh and and press into that issue. And and just the idea of the oppression of the little guy by the powerful. You don't believe in that, do you? You don't believe in the oppression of the little, the exclusion of the of the weak and the voiceless? No, we want to be the voiceless, do we not? And and so that that's I I guess we've got to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_03Um how much do you think again in in terms of the kind of um how much is the issue of control an issue there and how in in those discussions, I mean, is that is that's what is that what's behind the kind of pro-choice? It is a it is a control issue again that we want to kind of engage with.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, with the will to power that's like completely above nature itself. We're so committed to divorcing sex from marriage and sex from sex from pregnancy and pregnancy from children. Like those four things are like let's chop them all up. Before we chop up the babies, we chop those four things from from one another, and you have to intellectually, like totally, like and artificially kind of break those things apart. Um, and uh at at points it takes forceps and the ripping of limb from limb to do that. Um, but yeah, that there is very much the the imposition of the will over nature um in order to create the sexual freedom that that you know we we long to have. Um whereas you know, maybe you know what true liberation is, it's swimming in the waters for which you were made, and and maybe sex and marriage and pregnancy and babies actually actually go together, and maybe that's that's actually what builds a society and and will help you to flourish, but I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I thought I and in terms of the bigger question about why we haven't done this, I think some of it is uh it is, I think, a British thing about thinking that what can we do? It's too late. Right. Maybe maybe we should have said something at the time, maybe looking back we should have said more, but what can we do now? Everyone's you know, uh we need to be moving, you know. Yes, yeah. I I I think there I mean and again, you I mean, I I wonder whether you're with your kind of um your more Aussie sensibility, which is still there, I imagine, whether that's partly why you you're great in speaking out about it more, because I think some the your the classic grit will think, what can we do, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, don't cause a fuss.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, I I I I think that there there is something there. Um, and uh what yeah, what we can't envisage what it might be like to go back to um a situation before, and so I I think there's all kinds of cultural things as to why we've been quiet when other conservative evangelical groups across the world still want to be really going for this issue. Um, and I again I I just think it it it it is a mass issue and it's under our noses all the time, and we're not doing anything about it, and we're not speaking out about it, and what are we going to do? Um but then I think it's practically it's again saying what we're not very good at if one, we don't sometimes have a vision of what it could be, and two, even if we had that vision, we've got no idea how we might get there. So the idea of incremental strategy steps and what that might mean in terms of cultural plausibility, um, in terms of persuasion, that's where I'm kind of that interesting in the whole um sexuality issue. You know, there's there's manifestos in the 70s and 80s written by gay manifestos in terms of this is what we need to do to turn the culture round, this is how we're gonna do it. You can read it, we're not having those same kinds of discussions like where where are the conservative evangelical futurists? Where are the strengthists thinking this is how we kind of start to turn things around? Um, and there's all kinds of issues there, and I think there's a short-termism, there's a pragmatic pragmatism. You're depressing me, man. I don't want to be depressed.
SPEAKER_01Well, not that we need not that we need a 17-point plan before we open our mouths.
SPEAKER_03So yeah, it would be nice, but um some some some kind of joined up thinking, and and again, uh a toolkit to be able to help individual Christians to say, yeah, we can say something about that. We can start to start to think about these things, we can't we can start to speak up. Um so I I think that there is a there's a peculiar shape to that issue in the UK, which I which I do think is different in the s in the states. Now, I do think there are aspects of the debate in the States or the polarization of it that are helpful. But um, I was doing a I was doing a paper um at a conference in the States a few years ago, and someone came up to me and said, Um, oh, you seem to be advocating the cultural wars that we've been trying to get away from. And I said, I wish we could be more involved in the cultural wars here. Um than I think than I think we'd have been. What do you mean by that? Uh well I think in sometimes within the states there's a worry that there's been too much of a kind of an an us and them polarization, or there's been it's been too stark. Um, and I think we need to recognise more that we're in a battle, more that there are there are different ideologies going on here, than that the public square is a, as one writer says, is a battlefield of the gods, and people are going to fight fight for their fight for their own gods, and just that's that spiritual reality that we realise in our public discourse that there are there are huge different ways of viewing the world that are kind of combating each other. And yes, we need to be civil, and civility is very important, but we can't get a can't get away from these are antithetically different ways of understanding the world and different gods that we worship, and it is a battleground. And I sometimes I think in a speaking the truth in love or with great with um with grace and respect, we we need to recognise that we're in a battle, and it is a battle. Um and that and that and how do we equip the troops for the battle?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, which is uh it's always ironic, isn't it? That in the in the states where there is the ideological separation of church and state. And yes, you know, religion and politics are like this, over here, you know, the queen is the governor of the church of England, we've got bishops in the House of Lords, for goodness sakes. Um, and and yet not even Christians are thinking politically or thinking Christianly about politics. Um so we're much more likely to I'm just a gospel person, and therefore I have nothing to say about any of the using some of us. But it's but it's little things.
SPEAKER_03There was a um one very famous Christian kind of guy who's been involved in um writing about church and politics, is a guy called Stanley Hauvas. So he he's famously coming from a more kind of um radical Reformation tradition. And I remember hearing him speak in Parliament. Um, and so you have this established church, which you think in some ways he's everything that he stands against. And two people asked him questions. They said, What would you say to a politician? Um, how should they conduct themselves? And he just looked and said, Don't lie. Don't lie, just tell the truth, and that's one thing. And then, secondly, you know, someone asked him about what do you think about establishment, and he said, you know, enjoy it while you've got it, in the sense of, you know, the the influence which the influence of Christianity that Christianity has had. And I mean, I know that through your work and you know the importance of recognizing that even the things that I still think as a culture we hold dear, uh, many of those things are there because of the influence of the gospel in our culture, and we f and and and we forget that you can't have the fruit of a Christian worldview without the root of the Christian worldview. And I think that is still a powerful apologetic. I think it's diminishing, but we can I still think that's important. Yeah. Um, so uh, but I mean, you know, what a what a great practical thing to say to Christians. What we can do, don't lie, don't lie, tell people the truth.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Wow. And yeah, and and let the chips fall where they may, even if you haven't got the 17-point plan of for the for the future and what's what's what's going to unfold. Um, Jim Sayers has asked a great question about, you know, when we think about culture, surely evermore we're thinking about cultures fragmenting massively. Um what can what can the church do in the light of, you know, Republicans hate Democrats and vice versa, and Remainers hate Brexiteers and vice versa. Um, what what what can a Christian say that that might be of some some use when there isn't a culture out there? There are there are many fractured cultures. Yes.
SPEAKER_03So I thought I think part of it is um a challenge and an encouragement. The challenge is, given that in some ways, every individual human person made in the image of God is unique and so represents in some ways a unique culture. Having said that, um to do any kind of teaching, you have to generalize, or else you know you could you could only talk about each individual person. So we we always have to generalize. And that takes kind of hard work. Listening is hard, sometimes we're not very good at it. Um, to know where to know where people are coming from. Having said that, on the other hand, we do believe that there are universal things about humanity that are true, and yes, they do have a kind of cultural um specificity or they do have certain flavours, but again, this idea of these magnetic points, this idea that they're no matter which culture you're engaged with, which person you're involved with, which religion, basically human beings, because they are made in God's image, they they ask the same questions, they do the same things. So there's there's on the one hand, and that gives us confidence that we don't need to have done a sociological degree in every on every person to be able to talk to them about Christ. Right. It means that it means we do need to listen and we do need to contextualize, but at the same time, there are certain givens that will always be there, and that gives us confidence. So do you see what I'm trying to say there? There's a kind of a, it is a bit of a, it is a both and and um there there are certain if culture partly is offering a world to people and say, look, this is my view of the world, enter in, of course, there are certain views of the world that lots of people find popular. Um, and we need to understand what they are broadly at a very local level, but also the confidence to say, at the end of the day, human beings are human beings, they ask the same questions, and we have answers to those questions. Well, Jesus Jesus has answers to those questions.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and how do we contextualize that in the UK, um, where class is such a uh a huge issue? You know, Love Island has just had its you know finale, and you know, and so many churches well what's what's Love Island, never heard of it. Um in in other parts of the the UK, that's that's just massive. And and why why are we blind to those issues? How do how do you speak across class boundaries here in the UK?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, part partly I think, and this is where the global church can help us, because often one doesn't see your own cultural blind spots, and so we need the the um the help and the counsel of those who are not part of our culture to help us with our cultural blind spots. So there's something about the global church, the unity of the church, not to be so isolated that we're only gonna that we don't listen to other voices, firstly. Um, secondly, yeah, just to recognize for what it is, and you know, I think there are all kinds of issues to do with power. You know, that there's been lots said about race and ethnicity, and we need to do more work on that. And you know, that's not not an issue in our context, but the whole class issue is is because we're so in it, we just don't see it. It's so pervasive, especially in in um has been in evangelicalism. Um, and I think we need to do some serious work and to see how what class is, how class works, what that means for power, realizing that you know, um me as a me as a grammar school boy, you as an you as an Aussie, how we're affected by that, how we might react against in a in a in a in a unhelpful way as well. Um so there's all kinds of kind of you know, reacting to, reacting against. But what I think I think one of the key things is is having the conversation, starting to talk about it more. And I I I I hope, even though it's probably we've been forced to, it's probably helpful that at this time we're starting to talk about it more and what that might mean for the kind of the demographic of evangelicalism and how we might reach other parts of society that that we haven't um uh at at a kind of a yeah, at all kinds of levels. And and to realize that um in some ways Love Island is as religiously mo motivated as anything else that people do. Um, and yes, we need to work hard at at doing that work, but um I yeah, I think it's it's crucial.
SPEAKER_01So you are you are director of studies at Oak Hill. What's your what's your title at Oak Hill? College director, and uh you've been there, I guess, for like 12 years, something like that.
SPEAKER_0314 years.
SPEAKER_0114 years.
SPEAKER_03I came during your last year as a student there.
SPEAKER_01Ah yes, but you I don't think I took your classes at that stage, so you can you can disavow me. Because, you know, plausible deniability. You don't you know you don't have to claim me at all.
SPEAKER_03Um, our our one big interaction was um you bowling an incredible leg spinner at a game outside the back of a that sounds like me. It does.
SPEAKER_01Um very pleased to be remembered in that in that way. I think I I've bowled one or two in my time. Um so you've seen, I guess, hundreds of people being prepared for ministry and and sent out. Um from your vantage points, um what what are some of the encouragements as we as we bring this interview to a close? What are some of the encouragements that we can look to as we move forwards?
SPEAKER_03As I go round the country and do do some speaking events and do other stuff, there is a real hunger, I think. There's a hunger for people to make sense of what they think is going on. And I think there's a great opportunity for that to be fed with good orthodox Christian teaching and theology that isn't kind of you know um sound bite or fast food, uh, but is something that's substantial that is going to produce zilient, those kind of men and women of Issaca who know the times and know what the church should be doing. So I do think there is there is a hunger out there, um, which I I would say is a positive, and I would hope that what we're trying to produce at Oak Hill and other theological institutions are available. is to s is to recognise you know what does what does uh what does the bible require of a christian leader and a minister what does um what do we need at this time and I think the Bible can come up with as we've done at Oak Hill a kind of a graduate profile to say these are this is the character these are skills this is the biblical wisdom that is needed of Christian ministry for this time and um I would I would hope that we are trying to do that and other places are trying to do that as well um but it it's certainly a challenge and I think just just a wake up call um again if you know realizing the hunger is I think for me a positive because I think now we're starting to realize that wow it is tough we are in a battle um you know maybe in the um in the language of kind of game of stones you know winter is coming and are we going to be ready and are we going to be pre are we gonna be prepared um I use that I've never watched Game of Thrones but I hear that that is that was one of the things I I can say that um chapter four you can discuss about whether whether Christians can and should but yeah and just I think just to encourage inquisitiveness and to this big thing about realizing that our discipleship is not simply about what we do on a Sunday what we do in our church during midweek it's this whole holistic whole life picture of you know are we keeping ourselves from idols in everything that we do in the way that we educate our kids in the way that the things that we watch or don't watch in our in the way we construct create culture in the way that we are doing our own artistic endeavours if we can have that mindset then then then you know the church is you know the church can be such an attractive home for people who feel dislocated and homeless and that's you know that's what we need to be doing.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant and so final question what what what do you hope that people will get out of plugged in as they race out and buy a copy?
SPEAKER_03Yeah well my vision would be and this may be kind of you know uh idealistic is I would like people in their churches to read the book and say do you know what once a month or four times a year we're gonna get together and we're gonna look at our own lives and say let's look at this the analysis of plugged in let's look at the stages and how to do cultural analysis and we're gonna in a group we're gonna have a discussion on a particular thing that's been troubling us or a thing we want to engage with or a a conversation that we've had that didn't go well or what does this mean for my own life in my discipleship I'd love I'd love churches group Christians to be getting together to discuss the book and I hope it's accessible enough for people to say or in in your youth in youth groups or adult sunday schools or for preachers to be able to say you know yeah I'm in this sermon I'm gonna be I'm gonna be contextualizing my application in terms of this particular issue in in culture so that'll be some of my my kind of dreams for the book that people would read it but that it wouldn't just be an individual thing it would be let's do this together in community.
SPEAKER_01Yeah yeah well I can testify it that it has certainly helped me to do that to uh connect and confront and I just loved the uh the worked examples at the back uh you've got some uh some examples that students of yours have produced about how to connect and confront adult colouring books bird watching zombie films and the Japanese domestic toilets and to discover more about that go and get the book go and read the book from the Good Book Company highly recommended also Tim Keller highly recommends it so that's that's worth even more than my endorsement but uh buy it by the box load. Dan Strange thanks so much for joining us thank you