SPEAKER_03

The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.

SPEAKER_12

Wanna know what you'll look like as an old dude? Just wait until you have a toddler in the house and then catch yourself in the mirror unexpectedly. Or you could download the latest craze, which is called Face App. Everybody's doing it. Everybody is seeing what their face will look like in the future. And here's what I did earlier. You see, this is the before picture with nothing done to me. You can euthen yourself. I'm gonna just coin that as a phrase. You can youngify yourself and make yourself look like this. Or you can age yourself and shriek and run away into the sea forever, never to return. This is my future. And you know, as I look at this photograph, as I look at my future, I realize that the world really is a horror story. You know the the the whole premise of every horror story ever is the doors are locked and nobody gets out of here alive. Um that is kind of the doors are locked, no one gets out of here alive, and actually the aging process wakes you up to the fact that you are mortal, you are flesh, you are perishing, and one day you'll be gone. So what's interesting is that this has become a crazy. In uh a culture that is in the grip of the cult of youth, all of a sudden we want to age ourselves and share it on Instagram. Usually you retake the selfie 3,000 times and find the one picture that doesn't make you look like eating fucking chili off a thistle or something like that. Suddenly we are all sharing our worst science, or at least our age designs. And it really goes to the heart of our love-hate relationship with our faces, with our looks. You and I, we we all have love-hate relationships with our faces. In one sense, we love them, right? And if you don't think you love your face, well, next time you get tagged in Facebook in that group photograph, and you think, oh yeah, that must have been the photograph that was taken on holiday three weeks ago. Oh, that's got all the people I love the most in the world. And so you go to the page and you look at the photograph, but for whose face are you looking? If you are anything like me, your eyes fix on your own smug little visage, and then this is the other side of things, then you have the temerity to say that this is not a very good photograph of you because it doesn't make you look like this fitting image of Brad Pitt, right? We have this love-hate relationship with the photo, and we look at the photo and we think, Oh, I'm ugly, I can't believe I look like this. And you know, my wife, who has an admirable zeal for the truth, she will show me those photographs and she will bury my face in those photos. She will say, Glenn, do you see that? Do you see the way you look in that photo? That's how you look all the time. And at that point, you are tempted to say, I hate myself, I'm ugly, which of course is a lie. You don't hate yourself, you actually love yourself so much you think you deserve to look better than you do. That the face app is doing exactly that thing. It's tapping into our love-hate relationship with ourselves. We all want to share our own faces, our own selfies around the place. But this is actually waking us up to here's our future. Now, just this afternoon, we filmed on a beach in Eastbourne a whole bunch of teenagers looking at their own faces, and their responses were pretty funny.

SPEAKER_03

Ah look at that.

SPEAKER_12

I can see I can see you, yeah. There's there's Sophia, aged, you know, 40, kind of taking taking kids to soccer practice, that sort of thing. So, how how would you feel looking like this when you're let's say 40?

SPEAKER_10

Really? That's extreme.

SPEAKER_02

It is definitely going to be you. Do you think you could learn to love this face?

SPEAKER_01

I don't know. Maybe else can.

SPEAKER_02

What does it make you think?

SPEAKER_12

I'm really arguing when I'm old. I don't think so. You look distinguished. Like gray hair is not a bad thing. I've got plenty of it myself. Look at that. Yeah, I love that. Every single one of them swore. Uh one of them even said, I want to kill myself because of how she looked. In an Instagram age where we retake the selfie 3,000 times just to get the right shots, then of course, to be confronted by our mortality and our frailty, to be confronted by our the aging process, that is really going to take its toll on us. We really want to grip hold of our youthfulness. It's pretty much the the thing we want to trade in these days. We've got such a cult of youth these days. If you don't believe me, then you know, look at your Facebook feed. See everything that's being shared there. The only old people you're seeing on Facebook are those who have been aged by FaceApp. You don't normally see old people on Facebook unless they are doing what young people do. And so you scroll through Facebook and you see there's the seven-year-old who ran the marathon. And everyone in the comments is saying, Oh, aren't old people great when they act like young people, right? It's the 70-year-old who runs the marathon, or the 80-year-olds who are into breakdancing, or the 90-year-olds who are into speed dating. Only when old people act like young idiots do we have any time for them. We used to surprise their age and their wisdom and experience, and these days no. Only if they ate the young do we care about them. We've got such a cult of youth. Why do we have a cult of youth? It's because we don't think the story ends very well. We don't want to get towards the end of the story because when you turn over to that last page, there is death. My death, the death of the sun, the hate death of the universe. In a world which believes that we are just biological survival machines clinging to an insignificant rock, hurtling from a meaningless universe towards eternal extinction. Don't tell me I'm gonna get old, I'm gonna get depressed. Of course I want to kill myself if the clock is simply ticking, and the only thing at the end of that clock ticking is the bomb goes off. But what if what if the Bible's true? What if Psalm 90 verse 12 is true? Moses there writes, help me to number my days a right that I might get a heart of wisdom. You know, that that says to me that the face act can be helpful for my spiritual growth. As I learn to look at my aged face, can I learn to love what God is doing in my life and give thanks for what God is doing in my life? Can can I get a heart of wisdom by understanding the passing the passage of time? I want to number my days around so that I can get a heart of wisdom. But then is it merely that I just get gray hairs and age and experience and wisdom comes with that? Or is there something beyond that? And the Bible says, beyond just the age and wisdom and experience that comes with age, there is the wonder of resurrection. As we age, we are closer each day to the fountain of youth. We are closer each day to the elixir of life. We are closer each day to that thing that people spend thousands and tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of pounds on. You know, all that surgery that people do to try to make themselves look young, we're gonna get it for free. We are gonna have immortal youthfulness on the far side of the grave. We will have our youth renewed like evil. So that you know, that picture of myself that is me aged 40. You know what? I can actually roll back the clock, not just roll forward the clock. I can I can look forward to an eternal youthfulness. And you know that that means I can age well. That means I can go along in this journey of aging, learning all the things that God has for me, not wanting to grasp after the sand of youthfulness that will just slip through my fingers, but that actually every day is taking me closer to youthfulness. Outwardly we are wasting away, inwardly we are renewed day by day. This is the good news that we can proclaim to a culture that is just petrified of getting old, that just wants to cling on to not only youthfulness but also immaturity. But here, with this story, a story that ends well, we can march into the future, we can learn to love our aging faces, we can learn to love the age that we are coming into, and we can learn to look forward to an eternal youthfulness when Jesus renews our strength again. It's the 23rd of July. I'm Glenn Scrivener, and you're watching Speak Life. I am Glenn Scrivener. I'm Paul Feasy, and uh we are here on a scorcher of a Tuesday afternoon. Yes. It might even reach 27 degrees here in Eastbourne. Which uh for all our Australian viewers might not seem like a scorching. Bring a coat. Bring a coat, but it is very muggy. It's very muggy. It's very humid here. So it's not the dry heat of Canberra that I'm used to. No.

SPEAKER_09

Very humid.

SPEAKER_12

And you've been you've been doing uh some hard physical labour, Paul. What have you been doing?

SPEAKER_09

I've been down in the studio um uh sanding the floor with a sander, so I've had earplugs in, I've had a mask on, I came out covered in uh sawdust. Wow. And so I was shaking it off me, so I'm I feel filthy. You look filthy. I look filthy. Yeah. Smell even worse. Right. So yeah. That's why we're in 540p. That's why just so people can't see. We don't want 4K. It's atrocities.

SPEAKER_12

I've actually smeared the lens with some Vaseline and just um We're actually we're we're talking about um faces today and looking looking our best. Um but but before we go on and talk about Face app, um do you know the news? Have you heard Boris is our new exalted leader? That's the that's the news, and uh the only thing we can think to do is to make fun of it. Uh I don't know if you watched on on BBC News, but um sitting behind Boris uh during the announcement was uh his father, and uh it made me think uh Well, yeah, and then when he got up to to speak, uh yeah, sitting in the row behind Jeremy Hunt, there was Boris Johnson's dad. But it made it make me think that this is probably Boris's future. Um let's have a look at the at the picture. Um there over over Jeremy Hunt's uh left shoulder um is uh Boris Johnson in the future. But that's his dad, actually.

SPEAKER_09

Uh you've got a feel is that after he's been that after Boris has been announced.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah, yeah, Jeremy Hunt.

SPEAKER_09

Jeremy Hunt's really holding that face, isn't he?

SPEAKER_12

And they were told, so Boris and Jeremy were both told about ten minutes before this big unveiling. Right. And so they had they both had to smile, but uh it was quite obvious that saying we're gonna find out who the winner is.

SPEAKER_09

You're live on channel four. Please no swearing. Please no swear, Boris.

SPEAKER_12

And he got up and he did his Boris thing. But uh anyway, so that's that's the news.

SPEAKER_09

Kipper in hand or something. Yeah, who knows?

SPEAKER_12

Yes, somebody handed him something as a visual a minute before he went on. And he ran with it. This is the future, people. This is the future of Boris Land. But um we're not gonna talk about Boris Land. No, no, no. In a minute, we're gonna talk about Face App. Have you tried FaceApp?

SPEAKER_09

Yes.

SPEAKER_12

Upsettingly. You were an early adopter, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_09

Well, I I used it well, it because it's been around for ages, isn't it? And it seems to have had this weird resurgence, like, and I just assumed that everyone had done it years ago. And when people I I thought it was a new app that everyone was doing now, but it's the same one.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09

I don't know whether they've updated their technology. I th I I don't know. People can correct me, but I think it's the same app. But um I hope they've updated the technology because I've aged terribly in the last speech. Roger Feasy's in. Hey Dad. Speaking of I don't look like my dad in the photo though, though. No. That's for sure. I I hope not.

SPEAKER_12

For your sake, Roger. Um but um what was I gonna say? I don't have no idea. I don't know. Um, I really don't know.

SPEAKER_09

You would have been pure gold. Updated the algorithm.

SPEAKER_12

I I I think what they did, Face app, because they had a whole bunch of features, including you can swap genders, which I can't see it on my version of the app now, and you could kind of swap races and you could sort of darken your skin and that sort of thing. And of course, that's a little bit transgressive. We don't want to go there. That's hashtag problem problematic. Um as is gender for some reason. Whereas being old, you know, being old. Being old, I think, is the ultimate transgression. It's it's like that it's that's the last thing about it. That's absolutely true. Certainly not on social media, you're not allowed to be old.

SPEAKER_09

That's funny, actually. I've seen a friend of mine, Philippa, if you're watching. Yes, because uh we're talking, you know, how quickly we we become old. I saw one of my Facebook memories, yes, I was talking about children, you know, a young person music i in a in the youth group and how they'd berated me because they were saying they'd never heard of Led Zeppelin, it was old it was grandpa music, and they they didn't know who they were, but they insisted Cheryl Cole had sold more records than Led Zeppelin. Um but I saw Philippa put in the comments like she was like, Yes, exactly. Mr. Bright Side is not old people music, you know, the killers. It's not old.

SPEAKER_12

It's at least 10 years old now.

SPEAKER_09

Yeah, well, probably more than that, mate. I'm not even joking, but you know, quickly, people I mean, you're gonna Google it now. Very quickly, people think that something that's only a few years old is now very old. Everyone's gonna find 15!

SPEAKER_12

15 years old.

SPEAKER_09

Alright, alright, maybe it is old. Wow. This is your Howard's End thing. Howard's end.

SPEAKER_12

Middle-aged youth worker. Yeah, no, yeah. Still 15 years on, I still don't know what he's singing at the end. I'm convinced he's saying Payella.

SPEAKER_09

Wash your back. Wash your back. Always uh Peter K's. Wash your back. I believe that the hot dogs go on and stuff.

SPEAKER_12

Hello, Susie Bessinger. Besinger. Besinger. You'll have to correct me. Can you phonetically spell your surname? Suzy says Hello from Manila. Um my mother was born in Manila in Outback uh New South Wales, but I I am guessing you mean the Philippines? You can you can let us know. Um so we've had Hello from Your Dad, and we've had Hello from Manila. Hello from the other side, yeah. But before we get into FaceApp and the ten things that we can learn from FaceApp, we've also got uh a brilliant uh conversation that I had with Robin Hamm, who is uh a pastor and a writer and uh cultural commentator, and uh yeah, we have a great back and forth about the meaning of FaceApp. But before we do that, um we want to let you know why it was that we thrust um Paul down into the basement to uh to work in those unsafe conditions. And basically it's part of the big refurbishment for uh the studio that we're about to have, and so in about a month's time you'll notice some changes about uh the live cast, we hope. And uh let's let's just show you a video and uh let you know all that we're doing to the building and all that we're hoping to do with the Speak Life Foundry. Great. So please do go to speaklife.org.uk slash foundry. Foundry is spelt F-O-U-N-D-R-Y.

SPEAKER_09

Mm-hmm. And you can donate there towards uh the Foundry Project, um and you can get a free ebook in the process. Yes.

SPEAKER_12

Christ in all of scripture. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09

I just realized if you're listening on the podcast, that would be a very uneventful video. Well, it's quite quite a beat. Apart from absolutely enjoy the royalty free music.

SPEAKER_12

Maybe you could clip it out. But anyway. So uh that's the Speak Life Foundry. Um we're so grateful to people who have given uh already. Uh around about £2,000 has been given uh already uh to that appeal. Uh we want to raise £30,000 um to fund the half of the six interns kind of living expenses that we have pledged to fund. So uh thank you so much for those who have given and uh speaklife.org.uk slash foundry um if you want to give towards that. But face app. Um have we have we seen you do a face app yet?

SPEAKER_09

Have have we seen you age? Well, you you it was on the thumbnail for this, but people may not have seen it. Okay, well you you age like a fine wine, Paul. I have to really oh yeah.

SPEAKER_12

And if you're if you're following on Facebook, please do send in your your own face app. Uh yeah, we'd love to see photos. Um but let's let's have a look at you, Paul. Here we go. Here it is. Brace yourself, people. Goodness man.

SPEAKER_09

It's it's the receding hairline they've given me there. See, I don't think I'm gonna recede because my father has a full head of hair. Both my grandparents had a full head of hair.

SPEAKER_12

Is it about maternal grandfathers? Is that what you I don't know.

SPEAKER_09

I don't know, even if it's about maternal, like, yeah, he still had a full head of hair. So yeah, yeah. So if I if I put my finger over the hair, there's something of the kind of is it Walter White breaking bad there? Something about a bit of breaking bad going on there. Yes.

SPEAKER_12

You weren't sounding the serial killer. It's just you weren't sounding the studio. You were like taking part in your meth lab. You're building a meth lab. There is, don't you? Yeah, don't come in. There is some breaking bad studio. And what about what about me? Do you have like you you age like a fine wine. I age like milk. Look at that. For those who can't see, imagine roadkill. After about three and a half weeks. It's like when the witch has water thrown on her. Yes, Terminator 2 Thrashing.

SPEAKER_09

This is one of the one of the incarnations that it's the hair, though, that the hair that seems so out of place with the rest of it.

SPEAKER_12

Now let's like when you when you look at old you, and uh okay, when I look at old me, there is there is a part of me, obviously I I look like a Muppet that's melted in the heat, but um when I look at the eye because the eyes are the same, and everything else around the eyes still the same gland inside. Like right, exactly. Still the same gland I married For better, for worse, but not for that. But there's a sense in which you're looking at yourself, you're looking at your own eyes, and you're sort of saying, hello, old friend. You know? And you can sort of start to make peace. Really?

SPEAKER_09

With no, you don't you don't get that thinking, ah, kill it!

SPEAKER_06

Get it off me.

SPEAKER_09

Well, let's let's think about I think the problem with the picture when you see those things is that you there's no like if you'd shown me a picture of me now, like when I was maybe like twelve, and you if you'd shown a picture of me, like 33-year-old me to twelve-year-old me, yes, I probably would have gone, uh and been like, I look so old. But if I I've well I was gonna say if I just gradually come up to it, which I have, yeah, I have gradually come up to it. As is the As is often the way. Um I'm pretty much at peace with it. Yes.

SPEAKER_12

I think we saw that sort of yes yesterday we went onto the beach and we talked to teenagers about it. And to to a man and woman, they wanted to kill themselves when they when they watched it. Yeah. Whereas I think I think that the middle-age appreciation of FaceApp is like, oh yes, I've seen this coming for a while.

SPEAKER_09

Yeah, it's the it's the end of a process we've already we can see beginning. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_12

Whereas for a 16-year-old, it was very interesting. We we went up to a couple of girls on the beach who clearly had been posing some Instagram shots and clearly wanting to get their best side, get their best features, put their best front foot forward. Um, and then we asked them, you know, can you do the face app challenge? Uh and their responses were very interesting. So so should we have a look at at how teenagers have been responding to the face app? Ah! I can see I can see you, yeah. There's there's Sophia, aged, you know, 40, kinda taking taking kids to soccer practice, that sort of thing. So how how would you feel looking like this when you're let's say 40?

SPEAKER_00

How much of a month is?

SPEAKER_10

Really? That's extreme here.

SPEAKER_02

It is definitely going to be you. Do you think you could learn to love this face?

SPEAKER_01

I don't know. Maybe it can.

SPEAKER_02

What does it make you think?

SPEAKER_12

I'm really ugly when I'm old. I don't think so. You look distinguished. Like gray hair is not a bad thing. I've got plenty of it myself. Look at that. Yeah. I love that. He was not sure. Christoph was not sure.

SPEAKER_09

No. No. But he yeah, I mean he took it quite well. He did. Compared to the other two.

SPEAKER_12

Because he said, I look rich there.

SPEAKER_09

Yes, he was happy and he said I look like a rich man.

SPEAKER_12

So I think it's the polo shirt.

SPEAKER_09

Yeah, yeah, yeah. On a yacht somewhere.

SPEAKER_12

Totally looks like that. Good old Christoph. If uh if you want to see that, we're putting the link into the comments um for that video. So we dropped that one last night on uh on YouTube, and I I just found it fascinating talking to uh four different people um and getting their getting their reactions, and I think very much the teenage reaction was different to the the middle age reaction. The teenage reaction was just shock and horror. Um because I think they've got something to trade in. They've they've got they they have the currency that this world trades in right now. Yeah. And who are they when you strip that away from them? I think it's it's a you know You're nothing. Nothing young people. That's it, right? Unless you're young, you're you're nothing. Anyway, come back again next week for another episode. Um yeah. So um last night I chatted with uh Robin Hamm, uh, who, as I said before, is uh a blogger, he's a pastor, he's an author, and uh yeah, we got to speaking about FaceUp because he he wrote a terrific um article on thathappycertainty.com, uh which we're gonna have uh a little talk. About. Um, so why don't we have a look at uh what Robin and I um talked about when we talked about FaceApp and then we'll uh have a discussion about that. So I am with Robin Hamm, a writer, pastor, and cultural critic. Should we call you that? I don't know. How how would you describe yourself?

SPEAKER_08

Uh yeah, yeah. I probably wouldn't describe yourself as that. Uh Pastor, I guess, definitely.

SPEAKER_12

Pastor. With guy with a blog. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08

Guy with a blog.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah, yeah. So that happy certainty is a great, is a great blog. Tell me why you've called it that happy certainty.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, so that's based on a mine, Luther quote from Galatians. It's interesting, like it's I've often thought about changing the name because it sounds an arrogant name, doesn't it? In our kind of world certainty, but Luther is talking about the happy certainty that comes through being adopted uh into uh the Father's love through Christ. So an assurance uh that brings joy, not because it rests on us, but because it rests on Christ.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah, and so some of the things that you're dealing with on the blog involve the culture and involve trends and things that are um that are popular at the moment. And one of the things that's that's popular is uh Face app. When when did you first come across it?

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, so I guess it was like, was it midweek last week? Suddenly every other every other photo on my Facebook feed seemed to be a a Face app um photo. So people obviously using this app to kind of imagine using this kind of very clever artificial intelligence, what they would look like in kind of 20, 30, 40 years. And yeah, it just there was this, wasn't there this kind of craze? So loads of celebrities on Twitter kind of showing themselves, and I think the app's been going for a while that suddenly um I don't know, the technology's just got much better and and we all we all want to do it.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah, I think it used to be like you could switch genders and then that became controversial, and you could sort of switch races or at least skin tone, and that became controversial. But now we've reached peak transgression. Um you can now look old. You can you can now actually face your mortality, which is the the most transgressive thing you could possibly do.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Yeah. And I think I think it I I mean I don't know how good it was before. I don't know how good the kind of the gender swaps were, but I think they know that they've kind of they've nailed the technology stuff this time.

SPEAKER_12

Because the the the age stuff just looks so depressingly realistic, just yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08

Well that's it, that's what you notice, isn't it? You notice that oh actually that that is me. That could that that could well be me in 20 years.

SPEAKER_12

It's not just like a cartoon of what like uh because you're looking at your eyes, but everything is sagging around those eyes. And yeah, the wrinkle. Yeah, you're like, hello old friend. I'll see you soon. So when you did it for yourself, what what what were you first thinking as you were looking at that that aged face?

SPEAKER_08

Okay, so here's the crazy thing, I haven't done it.

SPEAKER_12

What?

SPEAKER_08

I haven't done it for myself.

SPEAKER_12

Are you a conscious projector?

SPEAKER_08

Well the thing that's the thing that's putting me off is the is all the security thing. Um obviously there's been this whole thing about um these Russian guys who are running this out, what are they gonna do with your data? Uh and so yeah, call me call me a hypocrite for not having done it, but um I thought yeah, I'm not gonna.

SPEAKER_12

You're just gonna do it the old-fashioned way. You're just gonna wait.

SPEAKER_08

You know.

SPEAKER_12

In this instant culture, you know, you're gonna be a good idea.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, with little kids, it's amazing how quickly that feels like it is happening.

SPEAKER_12

So yeah, just a few sleepless nights, and I already have aged 30 years anyway. Um, in your excellent post uh uh about what the popularity of Facebook um might be teaching us, um you make a few points about uh what this trend is is teaching us. Um number one, you say in a culture that idolizes youth, we are strangely fascinated with getting old. Are we really idolizing youth?

SPEAKER_08

I mean, I think I think in some sense we gotta say we are compared to um compared to other times in the in in in life and history, you know, we we see youth everywhere, don't we? We see like young people um highlighted as kind of our our kind of ideals for we don't kind of aspire to be old and wise, we aspire to be to stay beautiful and attractive. Um yeah, maybe maybe idolize. I think I think youth is is bound up with it's not just being young, it's perhaps some of the other stuff, um just wanting wanting that endless opportunity um and self-definition as well. But I think, yeah, can we gotta say that um in some sense we we think it's all about being young in our world today.

SPEAKER_12

So then why has FaceApp become so popular if if it's all about taking your you know your selfie on Instagram a hundred times and making sure you look as young as possible? What's what's going on?

SPEAKER_08

Well yeah, yeah, I think I use the word fascination because I think I think we're fascinated with the fact that actually I'm not gonna be young forever. I can't I can't kind of control this this youth uh and kind of make it last and keep drinking the elixir of of life. And actually uh this this is this is my future. And and there's something about just being just being hit with that as you kind of stare stare at yourself on the screen and go, okay, that that is me, that makes us go, okay, yeah, this this is where I'm this is where I'm headed. And I think um, yeah, like I I wondered actually um in in our in our kind of culture, we don't we don't have many kind of resources to kind of deal with that. When you're being sold, it's all about being beautiful and being young and having endless opportunity to kind of be confronted with the fact that I am creeping one step closer towards towards that is is kind of quite challenging, and I don't know what to do with that.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah, yeah. We went onto the beach just today in Eastbourne and we uh talked to a few different teenagers, got them to do the face app thing, and uh it was just what was fascinating was two of the two of the girls had already been like posing, I assume, Instagram photos uh like at the beach. And so they they'd already wanted to be sort of picture perfect. But then when we showed them um when we showed them the app, both of those said they um wanted to kill themselves that if if if this image was going to be them in like 30 years. Um neither of them looked much older than me. And they were sort of standing next to me and saying, gosh, if I looked 40, I don't know how I'd cope. But yeah, yeah, a really confronting thing. And yet they loved doing it. And yeah, so it's it's this odd odd thing. We don't want to be face to face with our mortality, but we're kind of fascinated as well. Which is interesting as as well. Like I I think there are so many shows on TV where you have to go into the morgue these days. It used to be you have you had to go into a strip joint in order to solve the case. Like for some reason, you had you had to somehow make this massive detour, and there was a very good reason why the police had to go to a strip joint to to interview somebody in order to crack the case. But these days you have to go to the morgue and you have to c carve up a cadaver. And I just think that's that's really interesting. That what's transgressive now, like everyone's seen naked bodies now, that's not transgressive. Like being face to face with your mortality, that's that's the really scary scary thing. And we s we kind of dare ourselves to do it in some ways. I wonder if that's that's some of what's going on.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And and I guess it's particularly something about our image, isn't it? It's something about our our it's it's not just I'm gonna I'm gonna die, or the way we confront the mortalities that it's this this kind of this this physical uh kind of image that I have that I work so hard to to filter and to hone um uh at the gym or whatever, uh or just on my phone. That's the thing I that's the thing that is gonna be mortal and wow.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah. It's like the same reason why we love to see New York destroyed in s in film, like like it's been destroyed like ten times more than any other city, but it's it's like the pinnacle of human civilization. We want to see it in ashes, because that's the horror story that that jolts us. Um yeah, maybe maybe there's some of that going on. Um so point number one, in a culture that idolizes youth, we're strangely fascinated with getting old. Uh point number two, you say we'd all love to see into the future, but none of us can control it. Uh how does FaceApp tap into that, do you think?

SPEAKER_08

But I think that's that's yeah, on an obvious level, obviously it's it's it's seeing ourselves get old, but it's also seeing it's seeing it's seeing a future, isn't it? And uh it's a kind of again, I think we we we kind of love the idea of looking into the future, and yeah, actually so much of our kind of our culture at the moment is is really present focused, and and so there's a fascination with the future and predicting the future, but actually what I think that's partly because we're so so kind of fascinated by the present and it's all about now. In lots of ways we don't actually want to think about the future, and so again, this kind of brings brings kind of forward a reality that we've got to face uh and says this this is what's coming. Um and yeah, and yeah, I again it shows that I'm not in control of it, and it shows that I'm yeah, yeah, um I am a mist that's that's here and is gonna go. Right. And that's kind of it's weird, isn't it? It's a it's a wake-up call. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_12

That that's that line. Is it James chapter one? Is that where it is? Uh what is your life? You're a mist. Like it was funny. I when I when I spoke to these teenagers on the beach, um a few times I kind of said, Um uh this is what you will look like in 30 years if you make it. And that was a bit rude of me in one sense. And one one girl particularly kind of picked up, What? What you know what do you mean if I make it? But um, yeah, there is a kind of a presumption in in some sense as well. Like I I will get to the year 2050, and this is what I will look like in the year 2050. Well, here's hoping.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, some of us will never reach old age, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's yeah, yeah, that's shows how out of control we are. Right. I think yeah, the present thing is interesting. So, like one of the things I wrote in the article about so Richard Richard Worfcomb, one of the kind of theologian guys, kind of talks about how actually our culture, uh yeah, we kind of have this kind of historically there's kind of been this narrative of progress, you know, humanity, humanity is progressively getting better, but actually kind of at the moment the progress is not so much kind of let's look to the future with loads of optimism. We're kind of a little bit of kind of distrustful of the future. That's kind of postmodernism, really. And so what we've done is we've kind of just kind of created this endless present. That's what life is about. It's just about enjoying limitlessness now. That's kind of that's what progress is to be able to enjoy now. And again, this kind of says, um, no, it's not just about it's not just about now, it's not just about today. Your your your kind of your body and its decay is is a kind of reminder that that endless present is a just a big myth, isn't it?

SPEAKER_12

Yeah, we are we are heading somewhere. Yeah, yeah, fascinating. And then number three, you say uh for all that we're told otherwise, we are intrinsically embodied and finite creatures. Unpack that a bit for us.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, I guess I mean these kind of three things are all kind of they all weave together, don't they? But I think the other thing that is particularly stark with with this app is it it is my face and it is my face aging. It is my body, and my body is is kind of going somewhere, and I can't escape the fact that I am my body. My body's not just something I have, that is me. And yet again, like the the way we kind of are operating at the moment is we are very much we're kind of almost treating our bodies like they're just a an instrument, just a tool, um, to kind of like for us to do what we want to do and be the people we want to be. So self-definition, um, you know, the self is the mind and and the will and who I want to be, and the body is just my means to kind of get there. So actually, we might say, oh, you know, healthy living, healthy bodies, whatever, but actually the body is really just a kind of a a tool to to be the person you want to be. Yeah. Whereas this app says, actually, no, I am I am my body, my body is me, and my body is is is aging, um, and I'm not in control of that. Um, and so it's just something about the createdness of our bodies and how we are we are then, that is me. Just something yeah, quite quite stark about about that in the app, I think, that is kind of making people go, okay, interesting. Yeah, there's something what's kind of shocking, fascinating, interesting, shareable about this is yikes, my my body, me, is is gonna be like that. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_12

And there's that sense when you look at the older version of yourself, and the version of myself from the face app is is literally like 104 years old. Um, other people get away with this sort of just slightly grayer, chisels, you know, look. And honestly, I I look entirely decrepit and I I look like have you seen? Have you seen what what they did to me?

SPEAKER_08

The coif is still there, and that's that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_12

The quiff was there, that's true. That's true, but the sagging, my goodness. It looks like it was a lot of sag. It looked like you know, roadkill that had been going off for a few weeks, really. But this is destiny. It's inescapable. This is coming unless I get hit by a bus, but um, this is what's coming. But when you look into the eyes of decrepit you, you're it's it kind of communicated it, it does look like you're looking at an old friend, because it doesn't look like I'm just looking at me with a saggy face mask on. It feels like this face that I'm looking at will have weathered all sorts of um not just environments, but experiences. And and the person that I'm looking at will have gone through all these different changes that not only are external but also internal. Um and and so it really, yeah, it really does kind of fight against the idea that our bodies are just a husk and that inside is the true eternal me. You you sort of you look at that old person, you realize that I my soul will age even as my body ages. And I will, you know, when I am that age, all of me will age, you know, not just this bag of protoplasm, you know, that's that's on the exterior.

SPEAKER_08

And it's interesting, like there's al I there's almost I don't know if this is the right word, but like as people sharing these photos, it's almost like a bit of pride about this person, this person who looks so experienced and and wise, and I'm not saying that as a as a negative, it's almost like we we're getting that actually there's something about aging and and this that actually is something to kind of go, yeah, yeah, you've you've you've lived a good life, you've you've done well.

SPEAKER_12

So maybe maybe maybe we'll start to see the elderly differently when we see them, you know, in ourselves. We see ourselves in them. Um it's just a trend that will last about 36 hours and uh it's it's already already receding into the into the horizon.

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, a fresh appreciation. I mean, maybe, maybe it's just that kind of you know, you've you've known someone, you know, they've perhaps been a grandparent, and and actually to it's a reminder, isn't it, that they they were once a year too, they were once a new and and yes, actually what what were they like? Three screen goals and tags.

SPEAKER_12

Yes. It certainly humanized my dad because I look like my dad in this shot. I look like a really, really decrepit version of my dad, but I look like my dad in this in this. And so yeah, it has given me a deeper empathy for him. Just kind of yeah, you you put yourself in the shoes of someone else, even though you're looking at yourself. And it shows how narcissistic we are that we have to be looking at selfies before we can actually have empathy for other people. Yeah, we're a mess. We're a mess, Robin. Um so final thoughts on FaceApp. I mean, obviously, these these trends they tend to hit in the summer, and they're just a flash in the pan, really. But um, what what what can we learn from them?

SPEAKER_08

I mean, I think, yeah, you could say, or you know, in a week's time no one will be doing it. Uh I think like it's just interesting, isn't it? What kind of things catch on, what kind of things become the fads. And I reckon, you know, personally, you know, it's always worth thinking, well, it's become a fad for a reason. There must be something about it that is is kind of engaging with our hearts and is making us you know want to buy into that. It's not just that everyone else is doing it, there's something about it that has made everyone want to do it. So just worth asking those questions like, well, why? Why does this appeal to us? Um yeah.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah, and it's what your blog does uh really, really well, and uh what this article does in particular uh about this trend. And uh so people can check it out. How can people find you online, Robin?

SPEAKER_08

Yeah, www.thathappycertainty.com.

SPEAKER_12

That happycertainty.com. Very good, and I hope people go and check uh you out. Robin Hamm, thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_08

Pleasure. It's great to talk.

SPEAKER_12

Robin Hamm, thathappycertainty.com, a great blog, and um yeah, he's always got some great stuff uh on there. He he still blogs. He still does that blogging thing. I miss blogging. Do you?

SPEAKER_09

Those were the days. It's a big commitment I found when I used to do it.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09

Yours was good. Takes a lot of effort.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09

But and then and also, I mean, I got to the point where I was like, I don't feel I've got anything worthwhile to say anymore. Never stuff. Well, I never thought I had anything worthwhile.

SPEAKER_07

Never stuffed me.

SPEAKER_12

But yeah, no, great blog to check out. Um but uh yeah, I I loved those those points that he was making, and and so much of it is about facing your mortality, isn't it? Um facing that there are parts of me that are dying already. And that's visible, and I don't like to face death. But facing aging is kind of a a way of getting me used to, you know, that that sort of mortality thing. And um it reminded me of that um that tombstone. Uh there's a famous tombstone, I forget in which cemetery, but um uh the inscription just says um uhce I was like you, and one day you will be like me. And yeah, so there's that dead person saying, Once I was like you, I was young and free and alive, and one day you will be like me.

SPEAKER_09

The thing that strikes me about the whole kind of aging process is that I mean th there's two sides to it, aren't there, I suppose. So biblically, there is a kind of an age thing, you know, about respect for elders and you know the the you know the blessing of kind of a long life and growing old and so on. Um But equally, and I think it came out, maybe it was from something maybe you mentioned it in the full-length video on the beach, I can't remember, but you uh you either use the phrase or the word like our our decreation or our uncreation, or something like that. And and it strikes me that you know, aging, we can look at it and so society, I suppose, it has two reactions, either just wants to go, oh no, let's not look at this, um, or we kind of go, you know, our wise old, you know, the wise old man, wise old woman kind of figure. Um But if you think of you know if you if you think of it as being an uncreation, like aging is an ac i is in one sense a very bad thing.

SPEAKER_11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09

You know, and if if you think about like uh if you had a bit of fruit in your fruit bowl that was actually on its way out and was just decaying away. Is that what I look like to you? That's where we are to go. We're rotting, we're perishing. Exactly, we are, that's the thing, isn't it? But and and it's but it it reminds me of sort of the blindness of humanity and uh uh how we're blinded by sin, that actually even though we see that decay going on all around us, we can still kind of st be completely ignorant of God and the sin problem you know, that death is coming, we still find a way to to sugarcoat it. Yeah. Either not talk about it or sugarcoat it.

SPEAKER_11

Right.

SPEAKER_09

You know?

SPEAKER_12

And I like the Bible kind of talks about, especially in the Psalms, uh it talks about, you know, underneath your wrath I perish. Speaking about God, or Psalm 11, God reveals his anger every day. And actually, part of the part of the wrath of God is this perishing process that he's already handed us over to. Um and so what what Faith's app does is just kind of turn up the intensity on the thing that we should be noticing in the mirror every day, but we don't, because we get used to it. But it's just it's just kind of turning up the temperature on that wrath that that there is, that that we are under judgment and therefore handed over to our perishing state.

SPEAKER_09

It's a visible reminder of that death, isn't it? The spiritual death as well as the physical death.

SPEAKER_12

Right.

SPEAKER_09

But we're just very good at you know, not being not remembering the spiritual death side of it and explaining away the physical side and just saying, well, this is natural and it's the way it is. Right. We just find a different filter on Instagram to use.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah, yeah. Or use makeup or whatever, you know, to to try and stop the aging process. You know, it just really strikes me when I walk through Boots, which is the the pharmacy chemist in in the UK, and it's just uh it's just wall-to-wall creams. That's all through thousands and thousands of creams that are roughly the same, I'm sure. Just marketed slightly differently. Different packages. But when when when you get an anti-aging cream, you think anti-aging like you're gonna have to reverse the arrow of time. Yeah, you gotta do it.

SPEAKER_09

Seven signs of aging.

SPEAKER_12

Seven signs of aging. It's like, yeah, no, it's a big thing, and FaceTap is waking us up to it. Um I actually came up with ten things. Let's see if I can rattle through these ten things. And really, there are ten questions that FaceTap is asking us. So if you've got the image, Paul. There it is. Question number one that FaceTap asks us: can we learn to love aging? Can we learn to love this thing? Um, here comes this this grey-haired person. Um, this is what is happening to me. Can I learn to love that? Um and you know, those those people on the beach, absolutely the answer was no. We must halt the tide.

SPEAKER_09

But yeah, face that. I think it depends, like you it's all to do with perspective, isn't it? I mean, and if you really think this is it, I mean that's just a if if this is one life, this is all you get, YOLO, all that stuff, right? Then it's a it's a horrible reminder that you're on the way out, yeah, you can't stop it, you can run, but you can't hide. It's coming.

SPEAKER_12

Like another day closer to compost.

SPEAKER_09

Absolutely. Right, right.

SPEAKER_12

Can we learn to love it though? Um and people are trying to, but we need a good story to tell in which the ending is a happily ever after. Then we might learn to to love aging.

SPEAKER_09

It's not the Lawrence Krauss kind of future's terrible and there is no hope. Yeah. Yeah. In that story. Okay.

SPEAKER_12

In that story. Very hard to love aging then. And then can we learn to love the aged? Is number two. And it is interesting when you see yourself as an old person. And like for for instance, my picture reminds me of my dad. And I I have more empathy for my dad because oh, that's me looking like that. That's not this other person looking like that. Poor thing. I'm gonna look like that too. Um and will we have more empathy for um those who don't look Instagram beautiful? Um, including the aged, and especially um including the aged. Um number three, can we learn to embrace our bodies? Um, with all their creaks and their cracks and their imperfections, and um it certainly makes us realize that we are bodily creatures. We're not just souls that are floating around, but we are embodied creatures that are finite and frail and perishing. Number four, can we uh learn to embrace our mortality itself? Um, not just the aging process, but the fact that, you know, I mean, my my face app picture looks like I'm about three minutes from death.

SPEAKER_09

So it was pretty severe, you're witness. Man.

SPEAKER_12

I've got a lot of laughter.

SPEAKER_09

Have you tried it with a different photo?

SPEAKER_12

Uh no, they're all pretty bad. Right. They are all pretty bad. Um they make my hair incredibly grey.

SPEAKER_09

What if you got a picture of you when you were a teenager and you tried that's what I'd be interested to do? Yeah. Because all those ones you the kids we did it on down the beach.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah. I had I had I had this, I had my forehead that was that's kind of, you know, very wrinkly from about the age of ten. Right. From the womb. Always doing the Hey face! Don't do it, kids. Don't do it. This is what happens. Um but you're a hop, skip, and a jump from being dead on this app if you're me and you do it. Um but can we embrace our mortality? Again, there's that tombstone. I was once like you, one day you will be like me. Um that's what FaceApp is asking us. Question number five that FaceApp is asking us can we face the world without filters? And there was that no makeup selfie craze a few years ago. Yeah, yeah, remember that? Um that people were sort of doing, and that was sort of about as far as people wanted to go. You're like, I won't put makeup on today, and I'll share myself. This is going way further than that, isn't it? And yet it's become this this this big trend. Um and so you know, I I find that encouraging. Um in a world where you're always retaking the selfie and you're putting the filter on it. Um this is actually, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna look as perishing as I possibly can. Will you still love me? So I I like I like that instead of putting the mask on, this is this is really about dropping the mask and and showing us not at our worst, because to be to be old is not to be bad, but certainly not as photogenic as you are. I don't know. I I think it's quite nice that people are facing the world without filters. But then there's that question, number six, can we be loved when we don't look our best? Um I hope so. I hope so. Otherwise it's not good. Yeah. Yeah. And if the other person doesn't want to love us, then you just need to show them their face app picture and remind them that they too are decaying, you know. And it does put us in touch with our own frailties, and so that hopefully inspires a bit more empathy. It's like, oh gosh, you don't look as bad as me. No, you don't look as bad as me, and and you know.

SPEAKER_09

No, I look worse. I yeah.

SPEAKER_12

No, I w I'd totally win that one. But yeah, I'm gonna let you have that. There's no contest. I'm afraid I have a lot of empathy for other people given where things are heading for me. It is destiny, there's nothing I can do to avert it. Um question number seven, can we empathize with those who are not Instagram beautiful? Um and I I do think about those girls on the beach who were posing their Instagram shots, and then they wanted to kill themselves because they saw you know themselves as a 40-year-old.

SPEAKER_03

Um It was funny.

SPEAKER_12

There was there was one moment when I showed to the person, have you ever done FaceApp? And and I and I showed her a picture of mine, and she went, Oh my goodness, oh my goodness. No, I haven't done it yet. It's true, I was there.

SPEAKER_11

That was my favourite moment.

SPEAKER_12

No, I haven't done it yet. And then, yeah, then the horror show. Oh dear, yeah. Can we empathize with those who are not Instagram beautiful?

SPEAKER_09

And I I can because you know, but do you think we empathise with those who are Instagram beautiful? Oh, maybe not. I think because uh I mean I mean that's maybe another discussion, but because that that is a very false world, isn't it? And I think we're we're generally aware, maybe those of us who are a little bit older, I don't know, maybe maybe teenagers know as well, but maybe they get sucked into it more easily. I think we're generally aware, aren't we, that when you see those Instagram kind of followings and the way people are living their lives, you look at it and you just go, it looks great, but we know it's probably quite fake.

SPEAKER_11

Yes.

SPEAKER_09

You know, like or it's a very shallow way of living your life that my life is literally just taking photos of myself and in the best possible clothes and poses and makeup and whatnot. Like it looks quite empty.

SPEAKER_12

It's not human. No, you're plastic.

SPEAKER_09

Yeah. Yeah. It's very plastic. So I don't know. Do we empathize more because there's been a few people who've done and you know, for comedy value, they've taken someone's Instagram account and they've done posed exactly the same shots, but in like their reality of what it looks like to be you know doing those shots. Yes. Um and they're generally hilarious because they're so unrealistic. The in the original shots are so unrealistic. Yes. Um but everybody likes though, you can you you look at that and you laugh at it because you you know that that is the reality. Yeah. You know, expectation reality kind of shots.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah, yeah. So FaceApp is kind of humanizing us a lot. We're dropping the mask, and you know, can you love can you love me without the pretense? Um and you know, hopefully the answer is is still yes. Um number eight, can we face an uncertain future? There are a number of times on the beach where I sort of said, you know, this is what you'll get to if you make it there. Which is a bit naughty of me. And they were like, oh wow, like not very optimistic. Not very optimistic. But yeah, I don't think I'm gonna make it to my photo, because my photo looks like I'm 104.

SPEAKER_09

Methuselah.

SPEAKER_12

But yeah, there are no guarantees.

SPEAKER_09

Well that's the thing, yes, you you you as you said, I think you said to one of them, you know, you get hit by a bus. God forbid, I think I did say God forbid.

SPEAKER_12

But yeah.

SPEAKER_09

But that's true. You just don't know, do you? You don't know you've got those years in you. Yeah. Um it's easy to assume.

SPEAKER_12

Yeah. And therefore, number nine, can we hope in the face of death decay and death? Because I like I I do I do take solace from the fact that what's coming is my face apped picture. But then the Bible says our youth will be renewed. And so actually, you know, my future is the youngified version of me. You know, the the future is is a renewed youth, so that it's it's not a constant, you know, downhill into the compost pit, you know?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09

Um and it would be easy, I think again, it's all about your having an eternal perspective, because if you have uh a perspective of an eternal sort uh of a um of a resurrection, yes. A physical resurrection with with new bodies which are incorruptible, actually it does put a different perspective on how you live your life now and how you face things like aging. Yes. I mean I know because when I go and do a few bits in care homes, or when I visited relatives in care homes, you know, a lot of people in in who are at that level of at that stage of aging, you look at them and you think this this is no quality of life at all. You know, and and and you think and I think well I think to myself, like, oh my goodness, like I would hate to be in this at the end of my life. Right. Um like you're going out on that note. Um but actually there's a and and if you think that is going out, you know, death is the end, and that is a that is a terrible way to leave this life. Um what a tragedy. Yeah, absolutely tragic. But is the best ahead or is the best behind them?

SPEAKER_12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09

Well, uh yeah, absolutely. Does it well again it would depend those who are in Christ, you know?

SPEAKER_11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09

I think the best is yet to go and there's a story, isn't there, of the the lady who wanted to be buried, you know, she she she would always get like um she be she would go to the meal at the church every week, you know, and they'd have um you know the food and then she'd always ask to keep the fork or whatever and because the dessert was coming and she would say the best is yet to come, you know. And then when she got buried, she wanted to be buried with the fork because the best is yet to come. I like that and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_12

I haven't heard that one. Yeah, yeah. So it's good. The best is yet to come. And uh yeah, youthfulness is coming. The elixir of life is coming. We're we're gonna get this. Um so therefore, that aging thing is a bit of fun along the way.

SPEAKER_04

Yes.

SPEAKER_12

Hey, you remember when we were old? Yeah, it'll totally be like that. And so we can pick up bumps and bruises and wrinkles and scars along the way, expending ourselves in the cause of Christ. And that's that's the tenth thing that I think uh it can teach us. You know, can we spend our lives well today? Um can I earn that face, that craggy face that is weather beaten and has, you know, gone around the block a few thousand times? Can I can I earn that face? Can I can I enjoy weathering my face? Can I enjoy living out my life and expending my life? Knowing that on the far side there's resurrection. Um that's that's a challenge to me, because you know, I lo I look at I look at my face app and I I think, ooh, he's lived a lot. This desiccated old thing. A few times over. He's poured himself out. He really has there's no juice left in that one. Squeezed out. And it makes me think, you know, between now and then I want to squeeze out, pour out uh the rest of my life. My my life. Can we spend our lives well today? Ten things that Face App asks us, and hopefully we've got some of the answers. Cool. Well, uh that'll do us for today. We are not having uh s a uh a live cast next week. New. Uh you are going to be at new wine. Yes. That's how you roll. Yes. Um and uh I'll be doing some things getting us ready for the foundry next week, so you'll have to do without us next week, but we will keep on um pumping out the content, Monday night video, and the the podcast. So do stay tuned for those things. Uh if you do want to give towards speaklife.org.uk slash foundry, uh, we'd be really, really grateful, and you can still get that free gift of an ebook, Christ in all of scripture.

unknown

Cool.

SPEAKER_12

Well, thanks so much for joining us uh this week, and we will see you in a fortnight. Yeah, take care until then. God bless. Bye bye.