The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_04Welcome to the show. Hello, welcome to the show. Here we are. Thanks for joining us. I've just discovered that Curious George. Have you ever come across Curious George? I'm aware of him. It's a cartoon uh with a monkey and uh his owner, and um their theme tune is literally. We might get YouTube copyright claims. Maybe I don't know. I want to say I was there first, but I wasn't. It would be a lie. Well, it it was an independent creation. We won't stand up in court. No, is it never mind? So Yeah, we need a new theme tune. That's that's what that means.
SPEAKER_03I'm kinda hoping that once we get the new interns, I'm sure you guys know we've got our interns starting soon in September time.
SPEAKER_04Six. Count them six!
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm kinda hoping we'll this is gonna uh go to a slightly more professional level. Maybe. You know it it would be hard to be less.
SPEAKER_04Well, that's very true. That's very true. Um but yes, our studios were getting the soundproofing uh put in next week. Okay, yeah, that's all happening. That's good. It it could be it could be only like two weeks away from having the live cast in a studio space. Wow. Wow. Craziness. Wow, wow. Um and yes, so our interns are coming to join us. Uh we've got two from the States, one from New Zealand, three from the UK, and uh average age of like 26, which is extraordinary. Ancient. Ancient, I know. Um so we've got like a videographer and an animator, and people who are really comfortable in front of the camera um performing, poets, uh all kinds of people uh who want to come and really beef up our audio visual game. Yeah, quite an eclectic bunch then. Yeah, and I think I I did the maths just this morning, but at a conservative estimate, I think with the man and woman power that we now have with the interns, we will have five times as much man and woman power to devote to to media production as we've had with just you and me. So Yeah. Well is this That's pretty cool. Um so we're not promising you know five times as many videos, but but the quality might slightly improve. Um so that's really exciting. And if you guys want to help us out with uh the Speak Life Foundry, uh it is uh a big extra cost for us, and the studios and the refurbishments are a big extra cost uh for us. Uh you can uh do us a great favor by giving a one-off gift or uh even subscribing and and and giving a monthly gift to us uh by going to speaklife.org.uk slash give. And uh all those gifts will be really uh really gratefully received because we depend on the generosity of people like you guys. So uh this week uh we're calling our live cast Have We Reached Peak Pride. Did you know that it was Pride Month last month, Paul?
SPEAKER_03Um do you know how I knew? How? Well, I mean I'd seen a few bits, obviously. But my um my banking app uh it may have actually still done it. They've changed the uh the logo on the banking app on my phone to have a kind of rainbow flag. Who are you with? Barclays. Barclays, yeah. It could have been any of them though, couldn't it? It could have been anyone could.
SPEAKER_04In terms of in terms of supermarkets. All rainbows.
SPEAKER_03All rainbow colours.
SPEAKER_04And it's hard to it's hard to scroll through social media without without seeing a rainbow on you know every screen. Yeah. Um and in terms of supermarkets, who do you think's jumped onto the the the Pride week the most? Pride month. I don't know. Uh should I know this? I would have thought Sainsbury's. Like everywhere I go, I see Sainsbury's.
SPEAKER_03We don't see you in Chrome, we've only got a little Sainsbury's local Waiters.
SPEAKER_04It's all Waiters Day.
SPEAKER_03We've got everything, we've got little, we've got little. Oh really? You know, we've got Waitchroes, we've got everything. Okay. But uh even though it's a tiny place, you have supermarkets, of course, you've not a big Sainsbury's Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Okay. So it it is Pride Month, and I guess and the and what people are saying is it's been a month because it's fifty years since the Stonewall riots in New York in in uh 1969, uh, where people really were um protesting against the police kind of busting up gay bars and and walking into gay nightclubs and and uh just causing a lot of hassle and and uh and other persecution of particularly the gay community, uh but perhaps other sexual minorities as well. And so people are saying because it's the 50th anniversary, it's gonna be a whole month. But what's been interesting to me is, you know, I I I get asked by non-Christians all the time, what do you what do you make of this whole Pride Month thing, a whole month of it? Um interestingly, just last week somebody in church in London sort of said to me, you know, what do you make of all this? And I said, Oh, I don't know, you know, each to their own sort of I gave that kind of answer, and I said, What do you make of it? And he said, I thought it was a bit much. And people, and and this was a not cr this was a non-Christian, like this is this is somebody who was brought to church, you know, as a guest, because it was a guest service that I was speaking at. Um and you know, you you go on The Spectator and you read Brendan O'Neill, and you and you expect Brendan O'Neill to to write a kind of a grouchy young man sort of article, and he didn't disappoint. Didn't let down really, did he? But but you know, he he spoke about, you know, I'm I'm sick of Pride Month, and and you know, he's he's an atheist who believes in all you know gay equality, gay marriage equality, all of that kind of stuff. Sure. But he kind of thought it's a bit much, it's gone on a bit long. Um and interestingly, um uh I I discovered that um uh there was a survey done uh very recently, and uh it was done by the GLAAD, uh, which is the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. And uh and they did a study um about you know uh how tolerant people are of the LGBTQIA plus um community, and they discovered that actually um there is less and less tolerance out there than than there was even last year or the year before that. And uh they they did this study together with the Harris poll, and um they came up with this finding that apparently uh 18 to 34 year olds are less tolerant of the LGBT community, and that that uh that is a trend that has been ongoing for the last couple of years. Um so do we have any any of those findings on screen? Yeah, I'm not sure which one's which they. Okay, so yeah. And what they really discovered is that among 18 to 34 year olds, um, that actually they are less and less comfortable interacting with someone from the LGBT community. Um so, for instance, 36% of young people said that they were uncomfortable learning that a family member was LGBTQ. Um, and that's 36% as opposed to 29% in 2017. So that's that's quite a marked uptick in people saying they're uncomfortable in learning that a family member is gay or lesbian or trans. Uh another statistic, among this group of 18 to 34 year olds, uh, 34% were uncomfortable learning that their doctor was LGBTQ. Um 34, so more than a third of people say they're uncomfortable learning that their doctor is gay or lesbian. Have we got the same statistics? Uh yeah. Oh, that that that is uh the population as a whole. Oh, I see, okay, right. So yeah, what's on the what's on the screen is that you're gonna be able to do that is not quite what Glenn is saying. So But among 18 to 34 year olds, you would you would expect them to be more accepting. You'd yeah, you'd expect the j that kind of generation to be much more open to these things and yet, and yet it's actually so on the screen you'll see that um it's 30% of people are uncomfortable learning that that that their doctor is LGBT. Um 30% of the wider population, and it's 34% of 18 to 34-year-olds. Um here's another question that they asked: Are you uncomfortable learning that your child had a school lesson on LGBTQ history? Actually, 39% of people more broadly said that they were uh uncomfortable learning uh that their child was learning that. Um that's up from 30% in 2017. So, like, what do we what do we make of of these statistics? Because we we're told that the trajectory is all towards acceptance, acceptance of the LGBTQIA plus community. Sure. And yet, when you ask people in their heart of hearts what do you actually think, I find it quite disturbing actually that people like that people care that their doctor is gay. And it seems like more and more people are caring that their doctor is gay, not less.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it seems a bit of a strange thing, doesn't it? You wouldn't and it's just not what you expect to see coming out of the results. Not at all.
SPEAKER_04And and s I and I think as as Christians, we can totally like say, well, that's wrong. Like I I don't care if my doctor is gay. I, you know, my doctor happens to be Muslim. I don't care that my doctor is Muslim, I don't have, you know, bear any ill will because they happen to think God is different to the way that I think of God. Why why would I care if my doctor thinks that sex is something different to what I think it is? Um So what's what's really interesting is while we all know what the what the correct view is, while we all know what we're meant to think about things, when people are asked in their heart of hearts, are you uncomfortable if a family member is gay? Actually we're finding that that is increasing and not decreasing. Um what's what's going on with that? Well, I think there are a number of factors going on with that, but um one factor is um the organization that has sponsored the survey, now you know, they are the gay and lesbians against anti uh against um anti-gay discrimination. So they do have a vested interest in saying that there's homophobia out there, so please give us some more money. Um so you know, and that's just true of any kind of organization like this. You know, if it if it's a Christian organization that wants to say that there's Christophia out there, um you know there is an incentive there to say that there is a lot of Christophia out there and to find every incidence of it, and then to say please give to our organization. So um there is there is motivation here um to to find anti-gay discrimination, but I'm not saying that that that doesn't exist, because it does. Um why else would there be these statistics? Well, I think um what one of the issues has been um when it's LGB, you've got an alliance that kind of makes sense. Um because the L the lesbian, the gay, and the bisexual um alliance tends to be of one mind on things and tends to say things like, I was born that way. And they tend to think that gender is really important. So if you're lesbian, it's really important that your sexual partner is a woman, right? Because that's that's kind of what lesbianism kind of is, it's woman and woman, right? And so gender really, really matters, and being born that way has come to really, really matter. But as you progress along LGB, and then you get to T, you're actually faced with something that's quite different to the lesbian gay bisexual alliance. You've you've got um people saying, well, it doesn't matter how you were born. Um you you might have a gender that was assigned to you at birth, but it doesn't matter how you were born, and gender is something that's quite fluid. So it is actually quite an unstable alliance that you've got there. And I I think people are seeing that as trans rights activists are given more and more of a platform, I think a lot of people who are not particularly in the LGBT um community are starting to say, oh wait, hang on, this is kind of not what I thought LGB was, and then comes the T, and then comes the Q and the I and the A. And and I do think that that people are kind of reacting against that. Um so I I think there is that factor going on that that actually the LGBT um Rainbow Coalition i is quite an unstable coalition. Um and you might not think that those um those particular sexual minorities belong together with one another. Um and because it's such a broad coalition, if people are unnerved by the developments in one of those members, then it tends to paint the whole coalition uh in a different light. So I think I think that's that's part of why there is less and less support and and there are fewer and fewer allies of the LGBT plus alliance. Um but then a third thing I think, why people are having a visceral reaction and why people are saying, I would be uncomfortable if a family member was gay, is I I think when you're not allowed to think different thoughts and you're not allowed to discuss different ideas, then all that's left to people is this visceral kind of knee-jerk reaction, yuck factor. Uh, and people are expressing that yuck factor, which is homophobia. And let's be very clear, you know, if if you're if you're just uncomfortable because you've got a gay brother or something like that, um that's I don't think that's a Christian thing at all. Um, and homophobia at that level, um, there should be no place for it. But I do think while ever we're not allowed to actually discuss what is marriage, what is sex, what are relationships for, what is family, if you're not allowed to have that discussion up here, what will go on in people's hearts of hearts will will become unexamined, and in the darkness there will fester uh a lot of unpleasant views, actually. And I think homophobia could be fostered by a top-down implementation of the the orthodoxies that people ought to hold. And so what might be happening, I don't know, but what might be happening is whatever the state and the culture is telling you to think in one way or another, um, that might actually drive other people's thoughts in in this subterranean way, and people might actually begin to foster um some views that that are totally unchristian. It's totally not Christian to care if your doctor is gay or not. And yet, when when there is a whole month given over to LGBTQIA plus issues, people are not finding that homophobia goes away. Homophobia actually starts to flourish, and and that's why sort of we've we've entitled today, Have We Reached Peak Pride? Um, because it seems like from the top down there is the imposition of certain views. But society, when you ask individuals in their hearts of hearts, do you believe in what the government is saying? Do you believe in the way that the culture is going? More and more people are resisting that. And you cannot just infinitely try to take culture along with you in this top-down way, trying to force tolerance onto people. There will be a snapback, actually, because human nature is not infinitely elastic. Um and therefore, I wonder whether in 2019 this this is the the peak for the pride movement. Um that's not to say that the government won't take further and further steps to to kind of impose um views that are friendly to the LGBTQIA community, but it is that I don't think society in general will happily go along with it. Um and I think that's a bad thing. Um because I I I think there is such a thing as homophobia, and I think this study by the Harris poll brings out that homophobia. Um there's also homophobia. Um we we saw on a on a London bus uh last month there was um this uh lesbian couple who were attacked by youths uh in a pretty shocking way. I don't know if uh people saw this on their social media. It was it was certainly all over my my Twitter feed. Um uh there is uh what's her name? Um Gaymanet. Her name was Gaimanet. What was her first name? Karina? Melania. Melania, Melania Gaimanet, that's right. Uh and her girlfriend was we're on a bus in London, and uh it was a horrific attack by uh a bunch of youths, and uh they were caught and they were arrested. Um, which is good, and and it it seems obvious that this was motivated by homophobia, and that is a dreadful, dreadful thing. Um but what are we gonna do about homophobia? And and one of one of the things I want to say is uh you can't just tell people what to think about homophobia because hearts and minds are not one in that way. Um and therefore a kind of a top-down imposition of these orthodoxies about human sexuality is not going to fight against the homophobia that that is rife in in humanity in general. So have we have we reached peak pride? Will will pride in 2020 um be a different thing? Will will the LGBTQIA alliance hold until 2020? Um and and will will society still be with the LGBTQIA? Will will there still be a majority of allies with that community next year? I don't know, actually. Um but I I certainly don't think that it is inevitable that society will forever drift towards this alliance of of sexual minorities. Um I think uh human human beings have a nature, and I don't think that nature is infinitely elastic. Um so I guess this podcast is about thinking, uh, what do we do about that as as as Christians? Um and one of the things that uh led to our our thoughts on these issues was that uh just this morning on uh Radio 4 uh Felix Ngole, um who is a uh Cameroonian um student at Sheffield University, who was studying for a social work degree uh back in 2016, he made some comments on Facebook um where he was defending the Bible's uh definition of marriage. Um he was thrown off his course, and uh just last week uh the Court of Appeals actually upheld his appeal that uh Sheffield University should not have done that. Um and I just thought that was that was an interesting that was an interesting case of okay, we've we've talked about homophobia that is directed towards the LGBT community. Um is there also discrimination uh directed towards the Christian community uh for holding the views that that Christians hold? Um and actually I I thought Felix did a great job uh this morning. Uh he was interviewed about his case, and uh we're gonna listen to uh a little bit of uh Felix describing uh what he'd done and his reasons for it, and then we'll discuss a little bit about uh this issue of are Christians being discriminated against.
SPEAKER_02What rights should a conservative Christian have to say that homosexuality is a sin? Felix Ngole was removed from a postgraduate social work course at the University of Sheffield in 2016 after posting a Facebook comment in a debate about gay rights. He said he was paraphrasing the Bible when he wrote, same-sex marriage is a sin, whether we accept it or not, homosexuality is a sin no matter how you want to dress it up. He has appealed to the High Court in London and he's won the right to have the university look again at its decision. He says he wants his place back and that the case has wider implications for British life. I've been talking to him. We began with the moment he was told that he was being chucked up.
SPEAKER_00I remember the letter that they sent to me, it was really shocking to me because I was treated like a criminal. They told me I have to submit my my library badge within a certain period of time, my library membership would be terminated with such strong language, and I was thinking, is this really necessary?
SPEAKER_02Let me put to you then the other side of this. First, from the university, they say you were taking a professional degree with the aim of becoming a social worker, and that it is not right that you would get that degree with your views because they would affect gay people that you might later be working with.
SPEAKER_00I've seen some of the defense that the university has put out there that they were just following national guidelines. If you look at the court judgment and I'll read from the judgment, it says the university failed to appreciate that it had taken a stance which did not accord with the HCPC guidance or common sense. So those are not my words, they are the words of three appeals court judges, and I feel it's liberalism on steroids. I I don't have any issue with them regulating social work students. That that is something that I expected when I got on the course, but it has to be done fairly and sensibly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but uh from their point of view, it is being done fairly and sensibly because they're saying they're giving you a professional qualification, and once you were qualified, you would not treat a gay couple the same as a straight couple, and you wouldn't, because you'd believe that the gay couple were doing something that was wrong in the sight of God, and you think what God wants for us is important, and so it goes as a simple fact, doesn't it, that you would discriminate against, at least in your mind, gay people.
SPEAKER_00Well, if you read the judgment quite carefully, the judges made a clear distinction between beliefs and practice.
SPEAKER_02That's not a is that is that realistic? Is that realistic? And you with your heart hand on your heart, if you seriously believe that some people are doing something that is evil, foul in the eyes of God, you would not treat them the same as others.
SPEAKER_00Let me tell you what my beliefs are. As a Christian, everybody is precious and wonderful in the eyes of God, and that reflects on my practice as well. I have worked with gay people, I've socialized with gay people, I've taught students who are gay, and nobody has ever made a complaint against me. If you look at the judgment, it clearly states that I've got views, but it's never ever affected my practice. It is quite possible for someone to hold views and yet be professional. There are many people who don't. Yes, of course.
SPEAKER_02Well, what about is any view acceptable? Are you generally making the case that not just about your view on gay people, but anyone's view on any group of people? It doesn't matter, provided it's sincerely held and they say it doesn't affect what they do in practice.
SPEAKER_00Well, i i i it is not my view. It is what the Bible says. I want to draw a distinction between the two.
SPEAKER_02Yes, although there are lots of hang on a second, there are lots of people who I mean I I absolutely accept that you're saying that, but of course there are lots of people who also read the Bible who who think that it's not relevant in in the modern era. So if there is a difference of opinion. You can't just say because it's in the Bible, then it it's somehow not your view. It is your view as well, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Well, they are perfectly entitled to their interpretation of the Bible. The Bible is open to interpretation. There are people who look at it and say there's there's nothing wrong with it. I'm a traditional Christian. I believe the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, I believe it is the word of God, I believe it is true.
SPEAKER_02Do you think those words from the judges might be directed at all of us more widely when it comes to socially conservative views? Because there are those who believe that social conservatives are under a lot more pressure than other people who have strong opinions in modern society.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think that it has some wider application in terms of free speech and um the way um freedom of expression is regulated. I feel we live in a free and democratic society, and I feel because of this ruling, decision makers they should be mindful and very, very careful when they make decisions that affect people. What should the university do now? My desire has always been to do social work. So I want to go back to the University of Sheffield. I want to complete my degree, but it's not all in my hands. It's up to the University of Sheffield to decide what they want to do, and we'll take it from there.
SPEAKER_03Right, so there we go. That was uh Felix uh there. Felix speaking. I'm not sure if it was this that was on the radio this morning, but I I got the impression from what the interviewer said it was maybe a slightly older interview. Okay. Um and he spoke, then he did speak to Peter Tattle, who we'll hear from in a moment after that. The thing that struck me as I listened to that was um the uh the the interviewer says uh surely, you know, if you believe these things, you would discriminate, at least in your mind.
SPEAKER_04Yes, right.
SPEAKER_03And and and I just think to me that that that I just seems crazy, doesn't it? That um you know they're saying you you've not actually done anything yet, but you might discriminate in your in your head. Right. Regardless of what that does in reality, outside of your thought process. Yeah. You would be discriminating in your head, therefore, bam, let's get rid of you. The thing is, we all discriminate in our head about everything. Yeah. All kinds of things, including when you're four presenters. Absolutely. You know, um it just seems balming. And then then he says, doesn't he? You know, uh well, uh Felix quite rightly said how the court said it's possible to hold views without actually discriminating. Right. And and the interviewer is kind of like, well, really? Is that possible? And you And you Yeah I don't know why he feels like that. Maybe he just he just discriminates all the time. Maybe that's he's he's I never hold back. If I think if I think it I always discriminate. Um But it uh the thing that came to my mind immediately was like, well, you know, if I was a if I was a doctor, yes, uh working in an A and E department, yes, I can imagine in my mind I would have quite a lot of disdain and very little time for the people coming in who were drunk and you know who'd injured themselves through their own, you know, basically sinful lifestyles, who'd made their bodies unwell, through things that have been avoidable, but basically they've just been doing things which are wrong in God's eyes over the years. You know, I would in my mind I'd be thinking, you brought this on yourself, yeah, you know, yeah, it's your fault, yeah, and you're taking up you know, people who are sick by no means you know, through no no wrongdoing of their own, yeah, are getting put to the back of the queue because of you guys and stuff. But you're a doctor, you do your job. Right. You know, you don't discriminate. Even if in your head you're going, Well, this who's this plum who's come in at 3 a.m., you know, having fallen down some stairs because he was tanked up, you know. And if it could be shown that you in your actions discriminate discriminate against people, then that's a different thing altogether. Exactly, exactly. But I'm saying people do that day in, day out.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, day and day out people do that. Or like you think about the example where the um the f the fa I guess the famous example was was it the g was it the guy who was a driver? The guy who one of the Westminster Bridge guys who then got shot and a doctor was like helping the guy who had remo just run people over. Yeah, yeah. And I can imagine if you asked him what do you think of him, right? He would have had some pretty strong thoughts on who he you know, on what he did. Yes. And you know, his beliefs and his lifestyle. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, actually in the moment when it came to doing his job, yeah, he did his job.
SPEAKER_04Right, exactly. And what do you what are we gonna do? Like doctors, doctors who are really remainers, and you know, I mean Nigel Farage had had that, you know, um plane accident, didn't he? You know, if if Nigel Farage ends up in AE and you're uh you're a Remainer doctor, um of course you're gonna, you know, separate your beliefs. Even even if you think Brexiteers are evil, um you're you're going to be able to separate. And if you can't separate a person's thoughts from their activities, then actually civilization is over. You know, at that point, civilization is over because then we get into the the area of thought crimes and wrongthink and people people being people being prosecuted for for wrongthink, and and then we have to build windows into men's souls to to you know to see what people really think about things. Um so the Court of Appeal was absolutely right to uphold this and to basically say to people, um, there must be a distinction between what people think in their heads and how they treat one another. And then if you want to punish a certain kind of thought because you you think that that thought must lead to, you know, action X, um, then who's in charge of thinking, you know, which actions uh are flowing from which thoughts? Because I might think, well, surely a Buddhist who is a vegetarian should never uh be in any position of authority over over meat eaters because they think meat is murder. And so obviously they're gonna discriminate against me as a as a carnivore. Right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Oh, there's there's no chance that I could have a safe operation under a under a Buddhist because I happen to be a carnivore, so surely they'll just let the knife slip. Nobody thinks that. I don't think that because I think the Buddhist is able to think one thing about reality, and there's a whole big, you know, cosmic circle of life, and therefore I personally don't eat meat. And it moves us all. And it moves us all. They can think that and still treat carnivores perfectly, you know, acceptably. Um and surely it's the case that Christians can have a certain vision of the circle of life, and all cosmic reality is a romance, and they they think that sex belongs within marriage between a man and a woman, and yet they can treat people who think differently with with perfect, you know professionalism.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But unless you can say that, it's like bye-bye civilization. It really is. So, Peter Tatchell was the voice of reason, really, on Radio 4 this morning.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, he said some great things, and we can have a listen to him right now if you'd like. Let's listen to Peter Tatchell.
SPEAKER_02We can talk now to Peter Tatchell, the human rights and gay rights campaign who's here in the studio. Morning to you. Good morning. Uh, should the university take him back, do you think?
SPEAKER_01Well, freedom of speech is one of the most important and precious of all human rights, so there has to be really strong compelling reasons in order to restrict it. And in this case, the university essentially said that because uh Ms. Ngode holds a particular point of view, uh, and this point of view might lead to him discriminate when he became a social worker, that the dismissal was fair and just. Now I think it's uh really uh uh uh a bit of a bit excessive to say that someone should be dismissed from a course on the basis of what they might subsequently do.
SPEAKER_02Right, you you you accept his point, do you, that uh he would be able to separate what he thought about people um from what he actually did when it came to practice of social work.
SPEAKER_01Aaron Ross Powell Well, I can't know for certain, but I think probably at this stage we have to accept his statement that he wouldn't discriminate.
SPEAKER_02Which is and then then of course you say it's quite significant you're saying that, uh because the university um I I would have thought was acting well most certainly was acting in a way that it thinks would be acceptable to you and to other people who've campaigned on these things for years, decades, but actually you're saying it's possible they have gone too far, that we've all gone too far.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'm certain the university acted in the right way. So, for example, I guess they were concerned that if, as a social worker, Mr. N'Goli was dealing with a gay couple who wanted to adopt a child, that he might rule against them or not treat them fairly, he might judge them more harshly. That's entirely understandable, but it's based on a presumption of what he might do, not what he's actually done. And I think that's a very dangerous route to go down.
SPEAKER_02Right. So so universities, and as Mr. N'Grole say, this th this is a wider thing than just with him. Um universities, even those universities where it is a professional course, so he's not studying, I don't know, English literature or something, he's studying something with a professional course where he will come into contact with people, even in those cases, you're saying wait and see how it happens in practice.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it I think it is perfectly possible that a person can hold a deep religious view that homosexual is wrong, such as my own mother, uh, but she would never ever discriminate against a gay person. I know that from experience. Uh and it's quite possible that Mr. Gaulie is one such Christian, that he holds a view that homosexual is wrong, but he would not discriminate. And I think in a free society we have to make that distinction and allow space for those kind of people. Peter Tatchell, thank you very much.
SPEAKER_04That is so good.
SPEAKER_03I think I'm gonna be quoting Peter Tatchell for the next year or so. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, just really helpful stuff, very clear to the point. Basically makes the the same kind of case in the things we've just been talking about. It is possible to hold views without um without actually discriminating in action in in actions and referencing his own mother um as a case in point. And also I think what he sa he says as well the the things against Felix are based on a presumption rather than any ac anything he's actually done, which is a very dangerous road to to go down. So Right.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I know what you think and therefore I know what you're going to do. Um yeah. That's what what a horrifying uh trajectory that would that would put.
SPEAKER_03It's very reminds me very much of the the the stuff we saw a few weeks ago with John Cleese. Right. You know, it's not about what he's done, it's about what we think he was thinking. Yeah. You know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um so And that's the danger with all these kinds of thought crimes, is that, you know, it's it's all in the eye of the beholder. And so who do we want to give the power to to say that X thought leads to Y action? Um I d I don't trust I don't trust the states, even even if there was a Christian involved in the state, I don't trust anyone to make those kinds of call calls. Um let's let's be judged on what people actually do, uh, not on thought crimes. Um but I just thought Peter Tatcher was brilliant about saying, look, we can disagree on this and still love each other and still um yeah, and still treat each other well. Um, which was kind of what one of the things we tried to get across with our thorny question uh video from last year, why are Christians so weird about sex? Um that was really our attempt to to say, look, um we don't we don't think we'll convince you necessarily if if um you don't happen to be a Christian, but can we at least lay out the Christian position, show you that it does not come from any knee-jerk yuck factor, but that it is a thought-through vision of all reality that is based on love, can we just show you that? And stop the shrieking and and stop the imputation and the and the impugning of motives um on the other side. And can we just can't we all just get along and and talk about this love-based view for sex and marriage? So if I've ever got five minutes with somebody and they say, you know, okay, explain to me how Christians do think about gay people and about sex in general, here's the sorts of things that we might say. Today we're going to have a frank and mature conversation about it. In particular, we're gonna ask the question, why are Christians weird about sex? That is, why do we Christians insist on keeping sex within the context of one man and one woman in a lifelong relationship called marriage? That's different from the modern view. So why? Well, the first thing to say is that the Bible has always been weird about sex. You are so weird. The Old Testament preached a markedly different vision for sex than the Egyptian and Assyrian cultures that surrounded it. The New Testament was very different to the Greco-Roman culture that surrounded it. Therefore, the Bible does not need to move with the times because it was never preaching the morality of its time. Ever. The vision the Bible casts for sex and marriage and human flourishing has always seemed to come from another place. So the Bible is weird, but let's be clear, the modern secular view is weird too.
SPEAKER_03And what is weird? White, educated, industrial, rich, democratic. That's who we are in the West, and it's weird. We're a minority in the world today and an even smaller minority in human history. The way we tend to think about and categorize sex today is completely unknown to and at odds with the vast majority of human thought. Problem is, we don't tend to recognise this. Many just assume that our white educated, industrial, witch, democratic worldview on sex is the measuring stick for how all sex should be viewed. And so in this context, secular people may see the Christian view as very narrow. One woman and one man for life. Seems so limited. But in fact, much like the Bible's view, today's weird views on sex are just as much an anomaly in our world and its history. So maybe all of us need to try and bring a bit of humility to this discussion. We see you as weird, you see us as weird. Okay, let's acknowledge that we're all sexual weirdos. I'm a weirdo. Christians, let's not clutch our pearls and act all shocked that the world disagrees with the Bible. It always has. And non-Christians, don't be surprised if Christians disagree with the modern secular view of sex. Pretty much everyone else in the history of humanity always has. Let's all be weirdos and let's listen to each other without assuming the worst.
SPEAKER_01You are the worst human being I have ever met.
SPEAKER_04Because actually we're able to coexist with one another when it comes to other issues. For instance, if you became a Buddhist and started telling me about the wonders of enlightenment and the Eightfold Path, I'd say, fair enough. And then if I learn that your school of Buddhism forbids the eating of meat, and if I love bacon, what's my reaction going to be? Will I assume that you hate carnivores? Will I assume that you fear carnivores? Will I call you a carnophobe? Will I say, how dare you? My brother runs an abattoir, but he's the most Buddhist-y guy you'd ever meet. No, I'd probably ask, why don't you eat meat? And you'd just tell me about your grand vision for life, and you'd show me how actually vegetarianism is not at the centre of your beliefs, it's just an organic part of your broader belief system. And maybe I'd be convinced by your presentation, maybe I wouldn't, but I would respect your different view, and you would respect my different view, and neither of us would cry bigot and get offended at the very idea of independent thought. I don't think I can dissect an animal. I think it's wrong. Okay, Lisa. I respect your moral objection. We can think differently on such issues and love all the same. Well, it's the same with Christianity and sex. Sexual ethics are not at the heart of the Christian faith. In fact, not even ethics are at the heart of the Christian faith. If you want to know why we think what we think, don't focus on sex. That would be like defining Buddhism by its approach to bacon.
SPEAKER_03We need to go to 30,000 feet and get the bigger picture. Here are the five foundations of the Christian sexual ethic. Number one, God is love. There's a flow to the living God, a shape. The Father, Son, and Spirit are distinct persons united in love. Number two, history is a love story. It begins with heaven and earth, and through the romance of God and humanity, there's a union. Heaven and earth, God and humanity come together in an eternal happily ever after. Thirdly, gender is a gift. It's not self-created. I've been given my identity and I live into it. I don't have to create my identity. Fourthly, our bodies are temples. Our culture says our bodies are more like playgrounds. But the Bible has a higher view. There's something sacred about our bodies and what we do with them.
SPEAKER_02Your body is beautifully constructed. Thank you. It works very, very well.
SPEAKER_03And then finally, sex is proclamation. Not just procreation or recreation. It's telling us something about the God of love who gave himself to us.
SPEAKER_04We need to explore those foundations a little more, and we will do that next week. But with these foundations in place, we see that sex belongs within a loving, lifelong relationship of husband and wife. But it also belongs within a cosmic romance that both predated and produced the universe. Sex is connected to the flow of God, of heaven and earth, of all history. We have a view of sex that is connected with the stars.
SPEAKER_03In recent months, sex has been a huge talking point in our society. The revelations about Harvey Weinstein and the sex abuse scandals of other celebrities have hardly been out of the news. We also saw the Me Too hashtag appearing on social media feeds of people from all walks of life, highlighting just how easy it is for the good gift of sex to be distorted and abused. We need a context for sex. But what is that context? Consent perhaps? Yes means yes and no means no. But does yes really mean yes when one party has the ability to destroy the career of the other if they decline? Clearly there are all kinds of complications. Is it possible that the ancient wisdom of the Bible might come to the rescue here? Next week we'll think more about the specifics. But for now, might it be the most loving thing to set sex in the context of a god of love, a history of love, and a lifelong commitment of love? It's worth considering. And maybe we'll discover it's actually what we want.
SPEAKER_01I'll have what she's having.
SPEAKER_04That that is the sort of thing that I do. So so just on um last night, I was preaching in London, and I was preaching on Philippians 2. Nonetheless, there was a QA session after the sermon, and somebody asked me, um, would I march in the Gay Pride March? Um that was just like yesterday, wasn't it? Or it was just like Saturday. Um and and I kind of said, no, I I wouldn't, but I would very happily sit down with anyone from that march and have a drink with them and um and chat with them about why I think there is this view of sex and relationships and marriage, and there's this view of sex and relationships and marriage, and they don't really go together. But I want to convince you that my view is not based on yuck factor, and it's not based on homophobia. It's based on this cosmic love story. Heaven and earth are masculine and feminine, um, God and humanity are meant to be married together, and it's it's preaching this cosmic romance story, um, and what the Christian sexual ethic is doing is proclaiming that that cosmic romance. So um if I ever get more than a couple of minutes to to talk about what sex is like and what the Christian view of sex is, those are the foundations that I go back to. You know, God is love, history is a love story, um, sex is proclamation, our bodies are temples, and our genders are given, they're gifts. Um and when you put those five things together, then you've got um then you've got a Christian sexual ethic that is based on the cosmic love story. And I would say that every step you take away from that vision for sex and sexuality is a set is a is a step that denies that ultimate love story, and so is actually a step away from love. Those are the sorts of things that uh that I try to I try to say. Um Amy Robinson uh has asked a great question. Um so Felix N'Gole was talking about um some Bible verses about homosexuality and was um kicked off his course because of it. Amy Robinson says, um, but isn't it about perceived danger? Uh in principle I agree that people can hold views without discriminating, but in practice, if somebody talked on Facebook about what a good idea it is to hit children, I probably wouldn't ask them to babysit my kids. Uh Pete Thorne has responded, true, but he didn't say he'd do anything damaging, uh, did he? So it I do think that the the analogy would be more like uh I believe in physical discipline. I think that would be that would be much more the sort of the the equivalent to what Felix did on Facebook to say I happen to believe that there is a case for physical discipline. And then when asked about it, and asked Felix, in the case of looking after other People's kids, would you smack them? And Felix says, no, of course I wouldn't. It's about, do you believe him or not? And maybe, maybe you would choose not to believe him in that instance. But I think you'd need a lot more evidence that Felix goes around smacking other people's kids before you would conclude that he would definitely smack somebody else's kids. So I yeah, I I I don't think I don't think it's an equivalent case. This is about statements of belief, where Felix was absolutely in the process of explaining why another Christian in the US was taking a principled stand, and he was saying, well, with from within her worldview it makes sense because the Bible says X. And so Felix was actually talking about not so much what he would do in circumstances, but he was talking about the worldview in which the Christian sexual ethic makes sense. And if he is asked point blank, will you treat somebody outside that worldview with absolute respect and dignity? Felix says, Absolutely I will. And I I think that we should give him the benefit of the doubt, rather than assuming that that belief will definitely lead to that kind of discrimination. So I do think it's different. But the comments continue. So uh we are we are on our second live cast. Uh you can find the link to this live cast from the first live cast if you're watching on Facebook. Um but uh that's that's where all the action is, people. Um so get involved, get involved. And uh I've also put on that uh comment stream the second in that uh series of thorny questions, uh that second video, uh, why does God care about our sex lives? Um and so that really goes into those five foundations for sex that I mentioned earlier. Uh, and I I do think it's worth checking out. Um but before there are any more catastrophes in the technical arena, do you think we should bow out grace gracefully? Uh well, yeah, as gracefully as we can at this stage, yeah. Probably. Yeah. Um but yeah, overall, um, there is such a thing as homophobia, and any kind of violence against um the gay community or transgender community or whatever um is absolutely excluded, not only on the basis of our humanity, but on the basis of the Bible itself. Um and I fear that homophobia will be on the rise as people try to force beliefs on a culture that is not perhaps ready for them. Um and and so um perhaps transactivists, etc., might be having the opposite effect of the effect that they they hope to have. Um but let's therefore not try to force people's views, either force them through violence, that that is absolutely uh outlawed and should never happen. Um but let's not just try to force them by legislation either. Uh hearts and minds need to be one, and therefore we need to, in Glenn Harrison's words, uh, tell a better story about where sex and marriage and family um fits together. And and I think Christians have the gold standard love story to proclaim to the world. And if it is heard on its own terms, I think it beats the spots off every other story about where sex and marriage and relationships fit together. Um That will be my final word on the matter. Right. For now. Alright, God bless guys, and see you next week. Okay, everyone, see you. Bye.