The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life. Hey you! Unsure of what to post on social media? Feeling out of your depth when it comes to global politics? Behind the times on the latest trends? Not completely sure which opinion will get you pilloried by mobs of angry strangers? Then try not posting anything! That's right, not posting anything is the new craze that's not sweeping the internet. Join the movement that literally no one has thought of as you let righteous indignation just sweep on past. Just take this hapless moron Wayne. Ever since making Facebook posts on US politics, Wayne's IQ has dropped 15 points and he's developed shingles. Don't be like Wayne. Start doing what no one on the internet has thought of. Try not posting anything. But wait, I'm a Christian. I want to have a distinctive voice online. We're glad to hear it, Bill. Here then is our foolproof three-step plan. Step one, we've already covered it. Don't post stuff you don't understand. Step two, make it clear in your bio that you're a Christian. Some preferred Follower of the Way. Disciple of the Galilean. Part one to the Nazarene. Or if you're not ridiculously obtused, maybe try Christian. That's step two. State clearly that you're a Christian. And then step three, and this one really is key, people, don't be a jerk. That's right, against all country inclinations and against the entire tide of jerkness engulfing the web. Try not to be a jerk. Both steps again. Resist the urge to post on things you don't understand. Make plain that you're a Christian, and don't be a jerk. Follow these simple rules, and you too might just survive this vitriol exchange storm we call social media.
SPEAKER_00Hello, welcome to the live cast. Today on the 2nd of July. That is the date, isn't it? It is the 2nd of July 2019.
SPEAKER_01Is that the date?
SPEAKER_00That is the date. Probably is. Yeah, there it is. It says over there. You're Paul Feasy. And he's Glenn Scrivener.
SPEAKER_01And together. I can't stop doing it. No. Scrives Easy or Scripfe. And uh we are here at the Speak Life Offices. And uh we are not in our studios, but we will be probably in a month, actually. Uh in terms of getting uh things uh soundproofed, uh it'll take probably an extra month uh to get in there. But once we're in there, my goodness.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. The possibilities. It's coming together. I'm looking forward to not having to cobble together a vague studio in this room and we thought very hard about what kind of files we would put behind us. Yeah, yeah. I made sure to close the kitchen cupboard door as well, actually. Yeah, just uh good. Look look like a professional outfit at least.
SPEAKER_01We're gonna bring this down into the studio though. This will this will be our lifehouse studio. Um so uh we just re-posted there our video top three media social media tips. Yep. Don't be a jerk and um the rest of it. That's basically it. Just don't be a jerk. That's the big one, isn't it? Don't be a jerk. Don't feel like you have to post on everything. Uh yeah. Which which is a big one. Um and and people like have a go at you for not commenting on like events.
SPEAKER_00Silence is violence.
SPEAKER_01Oh man, silence is violence. And so and under the pressure of silence is violence, we're just gonna, you know, put out any old nonsense.
SPEAKER_00It's crazy, isn't it? I because I feel, I think when we did the social media thing before I said this, that when something happens, you know, like a a terrible event in the world, you feel you see people posting about it and you feel you should post about it. Yeah. But I always feel that whatever I write about some terrible disaster is gonna seem very trite and also look very in disingenuous. Yeah. Because I feel like it will look like I'm posting it just to say the right thing. And then I think, but if I don't say anything, then people are gonna think I'm really heartless. Okay.
SPEAKER_01So let us give you permission. You don't need to post on everything. You can just let it slide. Um and then say you're a Christian, and then don't be a jerk. Don't be a jerk about it. There you go.
SPEAKER_00And there was the other one was don't post. I thought there was one that was don't post about what you don't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Did we say that one? That's that's the first one. That was the first one. That's number one. Don't post about what you don't know. Um, which, like, that should shut down the the live cast. Almost all discussion on social media. No more live casts. Yeah, that's it.
SPEAKER_00We're done. Um thanks very much for joining us. We'll see you next time.
SPEAKER_01We've just uh exhausted our competence on all issues here. Um but actually the Church of England, uh, getting with the times, the Church of England, um, have put out their own top tips for social media. They've now got a dialog connection at the office. They're actually award-winning. Now now under Adrian Harris, um they're they're really um uh they're really putting a lot of resources into uh their social media presence. And one of the things they've just done is uh come up with a digital charter um that they're asking people to pledge to uh adhere to. Um and I think we've we we might have a a couple of um screenshots of the digital charter. I wasn't sure which order these are in, so uh that's the wrong one. Not that one.
SPEAKER_00Oh no! Not the Bible.
SPEAKER_01We're c we're getting onto that.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it's because they were hidden by the scroll down menu. There you go. There you go. So can everybody read that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a very small can I can I make this bigger as we go in? Here are these values. There are values of truth, kindness, welcome, inspiration, togetherness, and safeguarding. And if you if you click that you agree uh to those media guidelines, then you go through and you you know you say that you are in agreement that yeah, we should be truthful. And it's interesting that they they do put truth first, and then kind, welcome, inspirational, uh together and safeguarding. And then when you click through uh to the next uh screenshot, um here here are some things that have alarmed some people. I just went on and and saw uh the Archbishop Archbishop Cranmer, um who has a uh a very popular blog, um uh sort of a conservative Christian blog. Um so he was drawing attention to uh various aspects of this pledge that people are signing up to. When people sign up, they they sign up to saying, I will be respectful, and then they say, do not post or share content that is sexually explicit, inflammatory, hateful, and I think that's the triggering word for people hateful, abusive, threatening, or otherwise disrespectful, and then be kind, treat others as you would wish to be treated, uh, and uh assume the best in people. So it seems to me that Good luck. Good luck out there. Um but I I think I've seen a number of people kind of object to this digital charter because it it reminds them of hate speech legislation. And hate speech legislation is the government determining, looking into your heart, and they've discovered that the window onto your soul, and they recognize that when you say there are only two genders or something like that, they've actually detected the hate that inspired that declaration of truth. Sure. Um and so and people we don't we don't like hate speech legislation because so often hate speech legislation is just hate that the le is just speech that the legislator hates, right? And we don't want to give to the legislator to the state that kind of power to look into people's souls. So I understand that people don't like hate speech legislation. But I think this is different. This is a pledge where you're saying, I'm gonna police myself.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna try and be the best person I can online. Yeah. Be the best version of you, your best life now. Um Instagram. Yeah. And just I'm gonna try and be respectful and be the bigger person and all those things. Basically, yeah, so I mean it's not it's not their their charter thing is not it's not in law, is it? It's not in law. It's and suggestions and guidelines.
SPEAKER_01If you are in contravention of, you know, this pledge and you happen to post something really abusive on their media channel, then they might block you. I think that that is that is the extent of the censure that will come your way if you actually The Church of England might block you. The Church of England might block you on Facebook or something. Um surprise it hasn't happened already, if I'm honest. So But I I look, I'm gonna sign this thing. Here we go. I'm gonna I shall I sign it now? Are you doing it now? Am I doing it now? Let's do it live. I'm gonna do this thing. Um first name, Mickey. Last name is Mouse. No, no, no. Here we go, Glen Scribble. I'm signing this thing because I think it's a I think it's a decent thing. I don't think it is I don't think it's is in any way the same thing as hate speech legislature that comes top down from the state. I think it's it's basically um saying that I I want to police myself, and while nobody else has the right to look into my heart and say that was motivated by hate, maybe I do. Right? And uh and maybe I can kind of I'm not gonna be able to. You can report yourself to the relevant authorities. I will hand myself in at the local constabulary. Here we go, submit. Here we go. I am now signed up to the digital charter. Brilliant. Right. So if you find that the live cast has been shut down by the powers of the, you'll know.
SPEAKER_00It's gonna be a completely different live cast now.
SPEAKER_01You won't be able to say anything. But I I think it's a good thing. I think I think it's it's very roughly what we've been talking about here on this show and and what we want to model at at Speak Life is let's assume the best in people.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And the only the only thing, you know, and and and it is a good thing. The only thing that may the only thing I think about uh when I think of it is just like, isn't it bonkers that we need to have someone write that out and say, wouldn't it be good not to be a jerk on like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I've signed it. Maybe you could sign it too. Who who knows what that will do? But it might be it might be, you know, one less dumpster fire of hatred and online rage. Maybe. Maybe. Um so uh oh look, Lee Fernie has just said uh there's a telegraph headline concerning this story. People who misquote the Bible will have their comments deleted from church's Facebook, says Archbishop. That's one way of spinning the story. That's gotta be satire, right? Yeah, yeah. So Lee's just uh said the last sentence in that article on the telegraph, we have no intention of deleting comments simply for being confusing, and there is no suggestion whatsoever that a comment would be removed if it was simply deemed to misquote the Bible. Um so the headline you gave it is not at all true. I don't think the telegraph is adhering to the so the Church of England's uh social media charter. So they need to sign up. But yeah, let's let's let's try and assume the best of people. Let's try and speak to people online the way we would speak to them if they were face to face. And let's see where we go from there. I don't know. Sure. Do you wanna move on? Move on. Yeah. Do you wanna talk about Glastonbury?
SPEAKER_00Let's talk about Glastonbury. Talk about Stormsy. Stormsy. Yeah. Uh did you watch it live? No, it passed me by, if I'm honest, that Glastonbury was even happening. Yeah. Well it was our church weekend away, so I was camping, so I wasn't in it wasn't really near a television. Yeah. So So you were but you weren't camp camping at Glastonbury. No, not at Glastonbury. I think I would have been more aware of Glastonbury had I been camping at the festival itself. Yes.
SPEAKER_01I don't know, some people just go for the mud.
SPEAKER_00Well, some people just go to go to the healing field. That's what I read in The Guardian. Yes, yes, that is a thing.
SPEAKER_01That is a thing. Going to Glastonbury but not liking music. Not like the music. But yeah, so Stormsey um had his great sets, and uh I I saw that he sort of backpedaled on something that he said. He said on Twitter, Oh, apparently I'm the first black artist to headline at Glastonbury. Right. And then people said, no, skin from Skunk and Nancy did it 20 years ago. Pull your head in. And and then he he quite rightly sort of got back and said, Oh, sorry. It's what I was told. My badge. My bad. Yeah, yeah. Well done, skin from Skunk and Nancy. And then a whole bunch of other people said, actually, it wasn't skin from Skunk and Nancy. It was someone else. There was UV 40's headlining and you know, black artists, blah blah blah. But um that's that's social media for you. Yep. Um but Stormsey, um, tell us why why why is the Stormsey thing got into the news? Well, I mean he had a number one, like, album, uh like he's a grime artist who had a number one album like last year. Um and the hit single from that, I'm blanded by your grace, um, he performed it, and he did what he so often does whenever he has a platform. He gives all the glory to God. Yeah, and I just thought that was really heartening. Should we should we see a little bit on this?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we got a bit of a clip from uh Glastonbury here, so here we go.
SPEAKER_05Help me out, please. We're gonna take this to church, and we're gonna give God all the glory right now. We're giving God all the glory right now. Let's go, man. Help me out. I'm blind to try your face.
SPEAKER_04I'm blind to your mind of your abrupt cut there, but uh Wow wow wow.
SPEAKER_01I mean I I love that so at the end, like he literally is like fleeting tens of thousands of people. Yeah, I think we've got a picture.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we've got a picture of those guys, actually.
SPEAKER_01Here we are, these are the at that stage they're saying, Lord, I've been broken, although I'm not worthy, you fixed me, and now I'm blinded by your grace. And they're singing along. Yeah. Isn't that extraordinary? Absolutely, absolutely. Like, I've I've seen I've seen one person online sort of say, Oh, this is just like when um the church latched onto um, here's to you, Mrs. Robinson, Jesus loved you more than you will know. And apparently back in the day, Christians did jump on it and thought that Paul Simon was kind of a Christian at that stage. So I'm not getting the mock. Oh, Jesus, Jesus! Hey! Um this is different. This is different. This is somebody articulating salvation by grace alone. Um, you know, just here are some of the words. I'm blinded by your grace. Lord, I've been broken, although I'm not worthy, you fixed me, I'm blinded by your grace, you came and saved me. Lord, I've been broken, although I'm not worthy, you fixed me. Now I'm blinded by your grace, you came and saved me. Um He goes, you know, I I I'm Abigail's youth, but I'm God's son. Now I'm up, look what God's done. Um you know, he it goes around, it's not by blood and it's not by birth, but oh my god, what a god I serve. John chapter three.
SPEAKER_00That's it. And uh John 1 as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00To be honest I mean there's some better theology in here than some of the songs we've sung in our church at times, if I'm honest.
SPEAKER_01Like Yeah. But but not everyone has been overwhelmingly supportive of it, and I can understand that.
SPEAKER_00Sure, so certain people's objection was, or some people's objection at least, in the church, was that you know, here he is, he gets up and he sings all this song about grace, and then in the kind of and you know, the next song, or kind of in a load of other songs that he sings, he's kind of effing and Jeff in, and particularly on on the night of um Glastonbury, um, he he stood up and he said something about the government, didn't he? Or he said something about Boris Johnson's. And the government, yeah. F the government. F F the government, Boris Johnson. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um he does dive into politics. So David Lamy, like a speech from David Lamy was part of his like performance and and he performed in a Union Jack knife jacket. Yeah, stab vest.
SPEAKER_00He wore a stab vest for a good chunk of it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Which is is quite a statement, you know. Given particularly you know the area he's grown up in and the things he's talked about, and so and I think okay.
SPEAKER_01I I think it's unfortunate that he um used that language. I I think it's unfortunate um that he kinda, if you like, slandered um pub you know, public figures like that using his platform in that way. But he thinks that this is an expression of his faith. Like he um he's a big David Lamy fan, he's a big Jeremy Corbyn fan. Um he has grown up around gang culture and knife crime, and he feels very passionately about that. He has certain views about the Tories. Um, but if you ask him about those views, it's it's not just because he's a foul-mouthed youth. It's like literally he he thinks there's a righteous cause to be fought. And he might be misguided about that. I I happen to think he is misguided about that, and I don't I don't endorse the language that he used.
SPEAKER_00So you mean misguided in his language, not that there is injustice?
SPEAKER_01There is there is injustice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um but he I think he was you know m misguided in slandering people, you know, publicly in in that sort of way. But it's not it's not as though he's doing it because he's a rapper. He's doing it because he's a grime artist. I I think he's genuinely politically motivated, and I genuinely think his faith informs his politics. And you might disagree with the direction that his politics takes, and you might think, well, if he was a true believer, his politics would be over there. Um But I I don't think I don't think it's just him being a rapper and so mouthing off. I think, in the same way that he wore that stab vest, that's a powerful political statement, social justice statement. Um, and I think in Stormsey's mind it it goes part and parcel with his faith in God. Um you know, he he loves Christ, he loves his community, and so when when he sees black and Asian and ethnic minority voices, you know, not given a platform, he'll speak out on that, and he and he'll say that his faith, you know, takes him in that direction. Once again, I I don't think the particulars of of what he said um were right, but I'm really glad that you have someone standing up and just absolutely unashamed of the name of Jesus. Absolutely unashamed to give all the glory to God. You know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, very much so. And and and the thing that I always find difficult in these situations is when you know we we obviously we've been looking at this whole thing, we you know, we're watching the performance on YouTube and we look at the uh kind of articles written about it um from Christian perspective, and you know, you're looking at the I mean YouTube comments are a terrible place, basically. They're full of horrible comments. There's a reason the Church of England writes that thing, because it is a horrible place. But I would say 99%, which is a very high percentage, 99% of comments underneath his video were all positive. Right. And then when you go and read the articles by certain Christian uh kind of publications and websites, and you read the comments underneath from Christians, my goodness, my heart falls, you know, at that. And and people you know, people were saying, and and and I think you know, rightly you're able to say, you know, great that you sung this song, shame about some of the language, even if you want to acknowledge he's making good points. Um but there are literally people on there saying he clearly knows nothing of the grace of God, you know, at all. Um and you know, saying like on them we we are ought to we ought to acknowledge God in our our language at all times as well. And you think, yeah, how are you doing on that? Right. You know, have you got that nailed down in every aspect of your life? Nothing you never say anything wrong. Right. We're not and it's not just swearing, is it? It c it doesn't have to be swearing. Could you never gossip, yeah, you know, you you're never harsh, you're never cruel, yeah. You know, you're you're making some big big kind of Claims there as to how good you are. And even if you are good with your language, I'm sure if we dig down behind the scenes, what are the respectable sins that you think you're okay but you're doing?
SPEAKER_01Right. Um I think one one um one objection people can bring, and I've got all the time in the world for this, is um it's a little bit pathetic when Christians see, oh, a famous person, um, you know, Justin Justin Bieber went to Hillsong. Um it's okay, it's okay to go to church. You know, and if if people identify that that sort of impetus in Christians, that we're so insecure in our faith. That you know, if if a celebrity like name checks Jesus, we're threatened.
SPEAKER_00We're straight on it, yeah. And and I and we when we were talking about this before, we said, why why is it that we're so excited when we see a celebrity and we kind of want to go, look, they're a Christian. And I think you know, that there is one element is we kind of want to say, look, cool that some cool people are Christians as well. Look, Christianity's cool. Um, and we think that that's gonna somehow bring uh you know people to revival or something. And I wonder whether it betrays in us an idea that we don't think that Jesus is cool, you know, or Jesus is good enough, you know, the gospel is good enough, that we need some celebrity to kind of sweeten the deal a bit. Um and and sometimes I think that's the case, but I think there is a flip side that actually, you know, we you've probably people have probably experienced this in their church as well. I mean, I've certainly heard testimonies of people who said, you know, I thought Christianity was all for kind of a bunch of kind of weak, weedy people, whatever. And then I met this guy at the office, and he was a Christian, and actually he liked football and he listened to music and he watched the same shows I did, and he was, you know, built like a tank and all these things, you know. And you could say, actually, I didn't think people were like so you can see how there might be kids who look at someone like um Stormsey and say, Oh, he looks like me. Right.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00But and he's a Christian, like, oh, maybe that's okay. So I think there's there's good, you know, there's good things in it as well. Massively.
SPEAKER_01I mean that that's why you have testimonies in in sort of you know guest services at church or you have an evangelistic event. Someone gives their testimony because literally you're counting on people in the in the audience thinking, oh, I guess it could be me too. Because there's a you know, there's someone who looks like me who might have had a similar story. It could be me too. Um Simon Amadeus Pilario. Uh Pilario? Pilario, you can you can correct me in the comments. Uh he's just said, it was good that he used the platform he had to talk about and give glory to God. I think people who think no one is Christian anymore in their head will be surprised that there are so many people open to it. Um and then what I mentioned about when he said those things about Boris, uh, Simon also said, Well, he calls out politicians, is it any different to John the Baptist calling out Herod? Interesting point, interesting point. And then Ian McCarthy uh has said, perhaps Stormsey's character hasn't caught up with his testimony yet. Um isn't that true for you? Isn't that true for me?
SPEAKER_00Well exactly, and and I and I know from kind of first hand experience that we've certainly said things, um and people question our faith on online, whether we're legitimate Christians, because they're like, oh you've you've you've said this is okay or you've watched this television programme or you say Stormsey's okay.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. This is waiting for it.
SPEAKER_00We're waiting for it. It'll come. Um, and and actually, wouldn't it be better to be say, look, you know what? Well, so when I listen to Stormsey and and you know and I read what people were saying about the whole thing, I thought, like, yeah, maybe he's like should we be surprised he's not the finished product? No. Like, you know, that that he's not got it all together. Yeah. And yeah, maybe we'd say, oh, it's a shame that you know, you because the question I said to you was that the maybe the way to think about it is if you were if you were Stormsey's pastor, yeah, next Sunday he comes to church after Glaston Bree, what would you say to Stormsey? Glenn, go.
SPEAKER_01So well done. Well done for giving all the glory to Gods. Let's go for a drink and um let's let's Oh that's it, you're clearly not a Christian. A latte. Because Stormsey, he's really down with the lattes for the Lord. Grime artists, they love their they love their lattes. But um, and we we we chat about that and and and again I I think there are character issues that would would need to be worked on. But like I and and I don't think it's a ridiculous situation to imagine Stormsey coming into your church and you'd you pastoring him. I hope, if you're a church leader, I hope you are pastoring people like Stormsey. I.e. people who are really bold in their faith, who are really embedded in their communities, and who will shoot their mouth off left, right, and centre, sometimes to great effect, and sometimes they'll make a hash of it. I really hope there are such people in your church. Maybe if you're if you don't have if you don't have experience of pastoring people who are really embedded in their community and who will drop the occasional F-bomb, but also talk unabashedly about their love for Jesus. If you don't have people like that, I pity you, you need to have people like that in your church. And yes, it would be better if they didn't drop so many F-bombs. Yes. Um, but I I really hope that there are such people in our churches who we can kind of pastor and shepherd along. Because I I can think of I can think of loads of people I know who, you know, that they'll get onto Facebook and they will say something that's um a brilliant testimony about Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, and then and then they might like drop the F-bomb about Boris in their next post. It's not just Stormsey who does this. People in your churches do this all the time. And I think if I was if I was the pastor of someone who did that, I think I would totally share their posts that was good and and talking about Jesus, and I would totally privately message them about that other post and let's have a drink and talk about it.
SPEAKER_00And and and so and and I can imagine a situation where you know, let you you could say, imagine a few years down the line he's back in that same position on that stage, and having maybe looked into some of that stuff, can you go? I mean, can you imagine if he got up and he'd said, you know what, this is all there's all this terrible stuff happening, here's all these things, you know, terrible things, and he said, you know, we need to call people out on the and he called people out, but he imagine if he said um and we need to pray for these people.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_00You know, like that, I mean that's counter-cultural right there as well. I'm not I'm not so I'm not knocking him for not doing that. You know, I can totally you know, I can totally understand why he would want to say those things and feel that way, and and I've certainly felt like saying things like that and you know having that attitude towards you know politicians and the establishment and things like that. Um but you can see how you know he might come back a few years down the line or further and say, like, I still I still absolutely believe that these people were in the wrong and these things need to be addressed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And now I've kind of grown even more in my faith than I know there's there's another way of approaching this and as an ambassador for Christ, and that's a great way.
SPEAKER_01That's a great way to pastor him.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I don't know. Like but also I was just thinking about those guys, I mean, and I might be wrong, those guys sing there with their hands up in the air and whatnot, and they're singing that song. I mean, obviously, whenever you go to a gig, you'll sing the song probably, if you know the words. Right. Because you like the song, you know. But it struck me that like it there must be, to some extent at least, something about this song that resonates with people. Right. You know, as they read these words and they can say that I am broken and stuff. Like maybe there maybe there is something in there. Now, of course there might there might not be. There's gonna be plenty of people who just like the song, but there will be some people for whom perhaps hearing that they say they'll be able to say, Yeah, I realize actually I I am broken, I am kind of I need something outside of me. And even if they're not like there yet, and it's not like it's not like a hundred percent a gospel presentation, you know, and saying repent and believe. It might be the song is pretty good. Well, I mean, I mean it as songs go, it's it's it's words.
SPEAKER_01They're extraordinary, because like I mean, some other comparisons that people will make will be like um you know, Jordan Peterson. There'll be a whole bunch of there'll be a whole bunch of Christians who would rather quote Jordan Peterson who's not a Christian than Stormsey who is. Um or th there is there is the issue of, you know, do you claim Donald Trump as a Christian? And that's that sort of thing. Um and I would say it's quite different between claiming Donald Trump and claiming Stormsey. I I just I I've never heard Donald Trump say, all the glory goes to God. No. All the glory goes to God, and then talks about being broken, and then talks about being, you know, saved and and you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's a very different thing there, isn't it? So someone here has said they lost all sound two minutes ago. Oh, really? Can every can anyone else hear us? That'd be a good thing to know. Um because maybe we're I'm hoping it's a good one. If anyone is near a keyboard, let us know. Let us know you're still there. Are you there? Or you're wearing still here. Are you there? It says it's all good on here, so I don't know. Hopefully it's good. Well, Simon can hear! Simon looks like he can hear us. We've got two Simons! Good, good. All the Simons can hear us. All the Simons.
SPEAKER_01So we've got we've got a Simon. Sorry, Margaret, it's really you. It's it's you. It's you, Margaret. Are you okay, Margaret? Seek help. It's you, Margaret! It's you. Okay. I love I love that we asked if everyone's okay, and we've got uh messages from Adelaide, Australia, messages from the UK, and from Malawi, from Lee Fernie. So what an age we live in. Incredible.
SPEAKER_00Um so yes, I think I'm encouraged by the whole thing, really.
SPEAKER_03I yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and having and also, I mean, you you you I've heard him, I saw him interviewed on a couple of different things, and you know, he seems like a a humble guy, you know. And and yeah, I think like Ian, was it Ian said, maybe his character hasn't quite got his assessment yet, as has you know, we're all a work in progress.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um I just I do I do hope that the people who like I totally get why um the you see the mismatch between one set of words and the other set of words. I totally get that, and I totally get why you would be against Christians just jumping onto the celebrity bandwagon. And I'm totally with you. I just I would just hope that you have some stormsies in your church. I think the world needs more I think churches need more stormsies, right? Who are, you know, like they're they're big semi-trailer trucks that will just like go in one direction, and they might cause a bit of collateral damage in one one way or another. But my goodness, I mean look at look at Simon Peter, you know, like you know, here here is a guy who can really, you know, talk you are the Christ, the son of the living God, and and and and also you know, say a lot of nonsense uh at times and and yeah, I mean you think how him and Paul came to blows over stuff when Paul was like, Yeah, dude, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Like your behaviour is not at all in line with what you're saying you believe. So I mean, you know, if those guys those guys can end up kind of slightly getting things wrong. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So that's that's the Stormsy uh issue. Sign up. You've got it done and dusted. So, you know, keep keep praying for him because he has he has a platform and people are people are listening. Um now we've we've entitled uh today's live cast When Christians Are Compromised. And we've thought a little bit about online witness and how we can be compromised in online witness. We've thought a little bit about Stormsey saying things in one direction and in another direction. Is that a case of compromise? We've discussed that. Um, but there's been uh a very serious issue of uh compromise that has come to light uh more publicly in the last couple of weeks. Um, and that is the case of Jonathan Fletcher. Um I think it was two Saturdays ago now, on the 21st of June. Uh I guess it must have been a Friday, actually, 21st of June. Uh the Daily Telegraph uh wrote that uh Mr. Fletcher was banned from preaching after spiritually abusing vulnerable adults and had his church powers taken away by the Bishop of Southwark in 2017. Uh so if you don't know Jonathan Fletcher, he was the vicar of Emmanuel Church in Wimbledon and uh and and a real leading figure of conservative evangelical Anglicanism uh in the UK and and around the world. He's a name uh that is known by many who will know this show. Um and I just I just want to lay out sort of the timeline of of kind of who it seems knew what and when, and then we'll think about how we respond when allegations um that I think are to be believed, allegations of spiritual abuse um are unveiled. Um so uh Jonathan Fletcher retired from Emmanuel Wimbledon in 2012. Um the first allegations um came to light in 2017, and they were reported to Emmanuel Church, and the safeguarding team uh referred them to um the Southwark Diocese and the powers that be within the Church of England. Um the permission to officiate uh for Jonathan Fletcher was removed in 2017. That means he can't go and perform communion and baptism and preach officially in other Anglican churches. Um, but that that did not stop him being invited and inviting himself and continuing uh to preach. Uh since uh then complaints uh uh have kept on coming uh about him. The church has received further allegations uh against Jonathan Fletcher. Um the police have been contacted about all these uh allegations, they've concluded that an investigation is not required and that he poses no risk to children. Um and at the EMA, the Evangelical Ministry Assembly, which is a big conference uh mainly of conservative evangelical Anglicans and others, um, that was held last week, and uh at a very public session there, um they started to talk about some of the abuse um that had gone on. And uh some of that involved physical discipline, um spanking naked backsides with a trainer and then further disclosures that have happened in this last year uh have spoken of uh massage, sometimes semi-clothed, sometimes naked massage, um, had gone on uh where he would ask people in his spiritual care uh to participate in massage, whether giving or receiving, I'm I'm not quite sure. Uh so more recently, um some conservative evangelical figures um have made known to the wider church some of these allegations and told churches please stop inviting Jonathan Fletcher. Um he hasn't um he hasn't shown, so it seems, to my knowledge, at least up until last week, he hasn't shown uh a full awareness of the gravity of what it is that he's done and um the power differentials that uh are involved when someone in spiritual authority is counseling somebody else and and then puts pressure on them to do any of these things? He he hasn't seemed to um he hasn't seemed to own the seriousness uh of what he's done, though he has made um uh he has made confessions about what he's done and he said that he's apologizing to um whoever uh he may have hurt. Um but what do we do when someone who is looked up to and someone uh who has mentored hundreds of uh of Christians um when they have a fall from grace, when they have been shown to abuse their spiritual power uh and and fall into abuse. W what do we do? Um and uh and I thought one particularly good response uh uh about it was written by Christopher Ash uh in The Gospel Coalition, and uh you had a look at that uh that article. Uh we put a link of it um into the comments um on this uh thread on the Facebook Live. But um Christopher Ash recently wrote three ways that um we can respond when church leaders are found guilty of abuse.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and so I believe this wasn't a it was an older article that he's kind of updated in uh kind of light of the recent allegations. And so he he kind of has this first, you know, three points. First one, we must guard our own hearts, and he divides that up uh into three parts really, that we must guard against self-righteousness. Um and and and he's just he's keen to point out um I think quite rightly that it's easy for us to kind of feel like there's this terrible thing that's happened over there, and oh we would never do that. But I I I can never quite remember the phrase um you know, it's the the the difference between myself it's something like the difference between me and the you know the the murderer or whoever like it is, you know, is not a difference of category, it's a difference of degree. Right. Um and to know that the things that lie behind the kind of things that have gone on actually are at work in all of us, you know, as the flesh is at work in all of us, and I think we we need to have an awareness of that. Um, you know, here by the grace of God we stand. Um He also warns about guarding our hearts against an unhealthy interest. Um so you know, Paul says, keep watch on yourself lest you too be tempted. So we can we can want to know all the GC details, can't we? And to uh then kind of to to gossip about it and and things like that. And um and I think we all know that, Paul, don't we, in our lives? When when we kind of hear, you know, someone chatting about something and you think, oh, you know, who are you talking about? You know, and you want to hear these things, and and we can have an unhealthy interest in that, and we need to guard against that. And then he says we've got to guard against the twisted gladness. So he says, when Judah came under the judgment of God during the Babylonian exile, the prophets had a special word of condemnation for the Edomites, who cheered on the Babylonians and rejoiced at the disaster that befell Judah. It says, Do not gloat over the day of your brother in the day of his misfortune, do not rejoice over the people of Judah in the day of their ruin. This is a danger for us, perhaps especially when a Christian leader falls. And I think that's very true as well. And I've already seen some of that online, people simply saying, like, ah, well, there you go, that's a conservative conservative evangelicals, there you go, it's all this thing, and uh and you you can see how people use this not to basically people use it for their own gain, don't they, to to say, aha, like we always knew that these guys were bad. And of course that's what's gonna happen outside the church. People are gonna say, Oh, we always knew the church was like this, and so on.
SPEAKER_01So Which is not to say that there might not be cultures um within our circles that can contribute to this kind of scandal happening, and that there doesn't need to be a lot of self-reflection among conservative evangelicals of this stripe. Um, you know, it's is there is there a culture that enables abuse to happen or covers it up when it does? Um and and Vaughan Roberts at at the EMA was was um very clear on on saying um there must be that kind of self-reflection that happens. But yeah, there can be a kind of a a twisted gladness that your enemy is as bad as you thought he was.
SPEAKER_00He goes on there, so we we've got to guard our hearts. His second point was we must face our disillusionment with trust in Christ alone. Um he says in Christ we see the polar opposite of every kind of abuse. Nothing about any of those blessings is invalidated by this sad discovery of the leader's flawed behaviour. All these blessings rest on Christ, not one rests on the character of this or on any other leader. For some there may uh may need to be a period of painful readjustment. We may need to hear afresh the admonition not to put our trust in princes, including dynamic Christian leaders. We may need to repent of our tr if our trust has become mixed between this leader and the Saviour. But in the end we should take fresh comfort from all we have in Christ. I think that's the important point, isn't it? Because it is easy to it's I follow Paul, I follow Apollos, I follow Cephas, and and and there there is a there is a danger, isn't there, a tendency towards um that kind of almost Christian celebrity thing, you know, within within Christian ministry circles as for sure. People who know other people, people who are known, yeah, and people want to be in with those people, yeah, and they look up to those people and feel like knowing and being alongside those people will in some way advance them and actually things like this suddenly just bring that crashing down. And yeah, if you've put your entire faith or a good stock of faith in this person who you've always looked up to, and then they fall and it turns out they're not the person you thought they were. Yeah. Um you can see how actually many people can lose can walk away from the faith off the back of stuff like that. And we you probably we've probably seen it again as you read through comments and testimonies from people who say, you know, I was part of the church, but then this happened, the church did this, the church did that. And and you and those those things are terrible that the church did those things and people did those things. Um but the church is not Jesus. Yeah. You know, the church is not Christ. Right. Um and so you know, we want you you need we need to be reminded of that now, particularly if you know we look at the church.
SPEAKER_01And that's part of what we say evangelistically as well. When when people point to hypocrisy within the church, we say Yeah. Absolutely. Um, there's always room for one more. Um the church is the church is very chock full of hypocrites, because we all are. Whatever you say of fallible human beings, you just can't say of Jesus. You know, and so just look at the way that Jesus handles the weak who are in his care. You know. Think of think of you know Luke chapter seven, where um the woman who had lived a sinful life kind of throws herself at his feet and is just gushing, and everyone else is expecting Jesus to kick her to the curb and to to use his authority, whatever authority he had, um, to to you know to be powerful over her, and instead he calls her daughter and then uses all his spiritual power to blast the hypocrites around him. Um and you know, there is the one that we serve. There is our sole cause of hope and salvation. Um and and when we see hypocrisy in the church, yeah, let's let's recentre on Jesus.
SPEAKER_00And then finally, third point, we must lament, repent, and be humbled together. So in his prayer in Daniel 9, the godly Daniel laments the open shame that has come to us. To us. To us. On the church, the people of God. Uh well the people of Israel, obviously, but here, church. We have all become a byword among all who are around us. The godly Nehemiah laments that because of the people's ungodliness, we are slaves. In other words, all of us fall under the shadow of God's discipline, whether or not we have been personally uh personally been guilty of covenant breaking and idolatry. And you know, he does talk there a bit more about that sense in which people will use this to say, ah, that you know, we knew what the church was like. Um this is this is what this is Christianity effectively. This is what it does. Um it's an abusive thing.
SPEAKER_01But we must all say, yeah, there is open shame that is coming on us, and it's and it's our fault corporately. You know, d Daniel is leading all of Israel in these prayers, and you know, and Daniel had been a paragon of virtue throughout the whole thing. Um and yet he can he can own it, and I think that's so necessary. Um and and I think the rubber hits the road with okay, well now let's look at our imperfect structures within our little bubble called conservative evangelical anglicanism or whatever whatever it might be. Um and I know that we're listened into by people from all kinds of different streams, and I speak in all kinds of different contexts, but that that's the bubble that I find myself most in. And I have to say that that there are ways in which our culture closes ranks in on itself. And therefore, that you know, does does that mean that abuse is more likely? Um I don't know, but it it it might make it more likely to cover up for an abuser or to just dismiss the whisperings that have gone on and to and to not pay attention when people are actually pointing to examples of abuse. Um I think there is there is a kind of a closed shop mentality, and and that that happens in every walk of life, but we need to be attentive to the ways in which that's true uh of us. Uh and Lee Fernie's made the really excellent point uh in the comments on the Facebook Live. He says, Don't we need someone from outside this circle of friends leading the line regarding the Jonathan Fletcher scandal? Um he says Robin Weeks, who is the the current uh vicar of Emmanuel Church Wimbledon, which is where Jonathan Fletcher was vicar, Robin Weeks is on the crisis management team, but was effectively appointed by Jonathan as his successor. Vaughan Roberts was appointed as Jonathan's brother, um David's successor in Oxford. Even Christopher Ash, who posts this helpful advice, served under Jonathan Adam Manuel for many years. Um I've put a link in to a website, and it's great that this website exists called uh walkingwith.uk, um, and it is for anyone who's been affected by um these allegations uh of abuse. Um you can get help. Thing is, that website was sort of generated by people from Emmanuel Window Wimbledon. Now, on the one hand, that is absolutely fantastic because it means that the church where this um had happened is owning it, is taking responsibility for it, and is trying to be part of the solution. So, um, full marks on that side of things, on the other side of things, how likely am I to be if if I've been on the on the receiving end of this spiritual abuse around Jonathan Fletcher, am I going to want to report it to the with you know to to the same circle of friends that Jonathan Fletcher has had in the past? Um and therefore, you know, there does seem to need to be the flinging open of the doors and letting some light in from elsewhere. And I've got to say that, you know, South Diocese removed his permission to officiate in 2017, and it's now 2019. And I think a lot of what's gone on has been a mistrust of the powers that be. Um South Diocese, then they're not evangelical like we are, and so we're not we're not so sure that this removal of the PTO was not politically motivated, and so we're not going to listen so much to to South Diocese. I I I do think some of that has gone on. There's a breakdown of trust, um, obviously because Emmanuel Um Church in Wimbledon is a proprietary trap chapel and and um and and not one of the parishes within um the diocese. And so there there has always been that that that that distance between South Diocese and Emmanuel Wimbledon. But when the light had come in from the outside, um there was there was an opportunity there to um to open the door a crack and let some more light in, which I think was an opportunity missed. Um and I just I think it's it's the hardest thing in the world because we're all self-justifiers, but we we do need to open ourselves up to criticism and open ourselves up to the light coming in from outside.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I mean and and and and I I completely understand that, and I think um this thing is uh I think we just should just be so so it it partly goes back to something we were talking about before, I think, that this kind of the slightly kind of unhealthy interest, twisted gladness type thing, I saw someone post on Twitter um and they said um about Jonathan Fletcher, and they said, Oh, isn't he the guy who brought and they mentioned someone else to faith and and then they said, Ah, no, we've not heard anything from that person. And I just thought that was distinctly unfair because Yeah, again, there was another person who's a relatively high profile Christian that people would know. And I just think like, I mean, w there's no need to drag them into it. If they're I mean, that we don't know if they were if if they experienced it. Right. But it it almost felt like a need to it almost felt like just trying to have a pop at someone else off the back of this, and and it was the whole kind of oh, we've not heard anything, it's that kind of almost like silence is violence thing again, you know, like their silence is deafening. And and I just think that's it's an unhelpful thing there, and and and and so I to I completely understand Lee's things as well, and I don't think Lee intends you know what this, what I'm about to say, but I imagine if you're kind of Vaughan Roberts or Chris Rash or that group of friends, um, or people who were associates with him, it would be very hard as well to hear people saying um the because it because it it could feel like people were suggesting uh that they must have been complicit in it. Right. And that's why they shouldn't be allowed to be approached as I and I know that's not what Lee's saying at all, but I can imagine that would be the case. I could I I I I mean I I I'm I mean I've not known someone closely, but I've s but I've certainly known of people who have you know, one day the police have turned up and uh they've been taken away for things that we never knew about.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Right. And you would be horrified we'd be horrified if people thought that we'd were involved in it just because we'd known them in some way. Now they weren't close friends, but you know, you can imagine how how the family of those people felt.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, in the end, I suppose, you know, we don't know how much wasn't known and stuff at the same time. So it's a difficult one, I think.
SPEAKER_01It is difficult, especially like to what degree is there a cul everyone's got a culture. Um and to what degree does the culture that we found ourselves in facilitate certain kinds of power dynamics? And there's always power dynamics and there's always a culture, and so that that will always be going on. And therefore, you know, maybe as as one of Lee's follow-up uh comments ha has said, um maybe we shouldn't be focusing simply on isolated incidents of physical discipline or massaging. But is there is there a broader culture of manipulation and bullying that was in evidence in Jonathan Fletcher, um, but that can be replicated um far more broadly without, you know, you you don't go to the you don't go to the cops because you've got a bullying boss. But everyone knows so-and-so is a bullying boss. Everyone knows it. Um and and do we have a culture in which that is more likely to happen and and and to flourish? Um and and I think we need to take these things on on on the chin a lot more because our our tendency is towards self-protection, always. And I think it's it goes back to one thing that I'm always sort of banging on about is is are we on a war footing or are we on an exile footing? You know, as we as we think about these culture clashes, if you if you think it's we are Israel and Babylon is out there, um, then everything that Babylon says about us must be wrong and we must defend ourselves against it. Um and so when if South Diocese wants to remove the permission to officiate for Jonathan Fletcher, it must be because they are against evangelicals. And let's close up shop because we're on a war footing with with Babylon, and we're gonna we're gonna shut the gates and we're gonna batten down the hatches, and it's just us. If it's on a war footing, that's what we'll do when allegations from the police, when when the Daily Telegraph breaks a story, when even you know officials within your own denomination raise things. If you've got a batten down the hatches attitude, you're on a war footing, anything they say of cr of critique to you is, you know, they're they're motivated by bad faith. But if we're on an exile footing, and uh, you know, in the office here we're we're reading through um uh Ezekiel at the moment, and and again, the Jews were constantly wanting to say, we are Abraham's descendants, the land was promised to Abraham, we have the temple of the Lord, we're gonna be okay, our people are the right kind of people, those people are the bad kind of people, it's gonna be it's gonna be fine, but everything they do against us is wrong, and everything that we do is by definition right. They had the war mentality, but God was bringing exile. And so the prophet Ezekiel is constantly saying, No, Nebuchadnezzar, he's my man. And wait till you see what Cyrus is gonna do. He's my man. Um and these people who bring devastating critique of the people of God, they are the ones to be listened to. Um, and and actually the people of God are the ones who've been standing against truth and standing against the ways of the Lord. If we're in an exile footing, and I think we kind of are in an exile footing in the West, then actually when people critique our culture, let's not batten down the hatches and say, but we're the people of God, and that's the world, what's the world gonna do? The world's gonna mock, mocker's gonna mock. Um actually, maybe they're Babylon, right? And maybe we are the sinful Israelites who are trusting in the temple of the Lord when actually God is judging us for not being true to the Lord that we we claim to cling to. So I I think for that reason as well, we need to we need to listen more when critique comes and open ourselves up more to judgment. And then our only defense is the Lord Himself. Our only defense is yes, we are totally unrighteous, and uh it is Christ alone who saves us. And and then I I I think at that stage our witness starts to be uh starts to be a lot more gospel shaped and not so defensive. Anyway, there's a rant. There's a rant, but um uh lots of great comments uh going on in Facebook. We'll um we'll keep the conversation going uh over there. Um I'll just mention that Lee agrees with me. Um says, you're exactly right about our needing to recognise in practice that we're in exile in Babylon and being humble to critique. Um you're exactly right about your commendation of my comment. I commend Glenn's commendation of your commendation. Um Thanks so much for the conversation, guys. Um I think we've we've we've had quite a lot of uh live listeners in. And um, yeah, so do good back and forth. And great back and forth. Do please be sharing the word and uh if you've liked this conversation, uh then perhaps share it on your own Facebook page and um let people know about Speak Life.
SPEAKER_00Um Yeah, pick it up as a podcast. You know, if you know people who might listen to it but you know wouldn't have time to watch or something, um you can pick it up at the podcast, speaklife.org.uk forward slash SLP, so speaklife podcast. Um you'll find them all there, and this one should be there pretty soon within the next day or so.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um we're gonna start dropping them on Tuesday, Wednesday.
SPEAKER_00Tuesday, Wednesday.
SPEAKER_01Basically as soon as they're ready. As soon as it's all edited, and we'll get it straight back out there. So fantastic. Um next week, are you able to do Monday? I've just thought I can't I can't do Tuesday. Uh probably. Probably can you do Monday? That's the real question. We could probably do it, but can you? Let's do a doodle poll. Um we will hopefully see you on Monday.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah. And hopefully we'll we'll have some less heavy stuff to talk about, maybe. That'd be nice, wouldn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so yeah. But but good stuff to shine shine some light into some dark places. I think it's uh it's it's necessary at times. Great stuff. You guys have a great week. Cool. Take care everyone. We'll see you soon. Bye. Thanks. Bye.