The Speak Club Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to the show, everybody! Hello. A little too close. Hogging the limelight as ever. And uh yes, I'm Glenn Scrivener. I'm Paul Feasy. And uh together we are Scriveneasy. Scribbzy. Feasner Feasner. Feasner, sure. Feesner. Feasner. Okay. Yeah. Always wanted to put himself first. Absolutely. Take up the whole screen. And uh we are in Banstead, Christ Church Bansted, which is where we'll be for the next few days uh for an outreach mission. And uh yeah, they are doing uh a great job of getting lots of people into their church. This is in South London, and uh yesterday they had Major General Tim Cross uh yeah giving an interview and then people preaching off the back of it. Tonight I'm gonna interview George Osborne. Not that George Osborne. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01The poor guy. It was if you've been if you've been watching this for a while or listened to the podcast, you'll have come across George before actually. Because George was the is the guy who kind of heads up the uh is it what are they called? Lumina Lumina, who we've kind of done some work with at the Mind, Body and Soul convention at Alexandra Palace. You might remember that back in November. I think we interviewed him the year before, after the previous one as well. That's right. Um so it was yeah, he'll be interesting. You can go back and check that out. That's a good one.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so he has a testimony of kind of coming out of the new age, and uh yeah, really interesting. And I'm gonna be talking to Tamar Pollard, who's got a great story, many of you might know Tamar Pollard, uh uh Warren Furman. Ace. Ace from Gladiators. Yeah. Uh and James Carey, uh, another friend of the show. Uh, and uh he'll be on Saturday night. And yeah, just one of these opportunities to spend an intensive week of getting to hear people's stories and then showing how the Jesus story makes sense of life. And uh already last night they were saying that um yeah, they had a couple of people ticking a box to say I've prayed to receive Jesus. They didn't leave their details, um, but they did say they prayed to receive Jesus. So, you know, whatever that means, take it, take it for whatever that means. But uh people are spiritually hungry and uh yeah, it's just just fun to be part of it. Yeah. Should be good. So uh today we're gonna call our live cast Getting Down with the Kids.
SPEAKER_01We're probably getting into trouble. There's some there's some kind of probably some kind of gang sign I've just dropped without realising it. Is that a gang sign? Or do that one. Sorry, sorry the phone.
SPEAKER_02Um I'm quite a gesticulator. Um but uh yes, so getting that was brilliant. We both just went on that at the same time. It's like synchronized arm crossing in West Philadelphia, born and raised. Um and so uh yes, so getting down with the kids is in reference to uh a wonderful story that uh I came across just a couple of days ago um about how uh one person, one member of the public, really helped in the situation where a nine-year-old boy uh who was autistic uh was having a meltdown and this woman came and helped and really got down with the kids and really got down on his level and um really diffused an amazing uh what could have been just a terrible um situation. She got down with the kids. Um and within a week of that happening, actually, there was another situation where um there was another nine-year-old uh autistic boy who was having a meltdown, and he was asked to leave in no uncertain terms, and the family just felt so shamed, and it was just not not a good thing. Um one of these incidents happened at a theme park, one of these incidents happened in church, and I would love to tell you that it was the church that handled the situation well, it was not. It was the theme park in Orlando. Um and we've actually got um we've got a little image of uh what happened, and uh while you look at that image, let me just um read out to you um uh the the Facebook uh posting of the mother of the this boy who happens to have autism. Um she's called Lenore Coppelman. Her son is called Ralph, he's nine years old, and uh she said that they were just about to to board uh a Spider-Man uh ride, and it was the last ride of the day, and he wanted to you know the one ride he wanted to go on was a Spider-Man ride, and they were told that there was uh uh some kind of error on the ride, and they couldn't do it, it wasn't going to happen. And so she writes on on Facebook uh the autistic meltdown was going to happen, and happen it did. Ralph collapsed onto the floor while crowds of people were attempting to exit the ride and gift shop attached to it. He began sobbing, screaming, rocking, hyperventilating, and truly struggling to breathe. A woman who worked there named Jen, uh turns out her name is Jen Welchell, well done Jen. She came over. In fact, she rushed over, and while I, uh the mother speaking, while I frantically kept trying to get him to stand up so he wouldn't get trampled on by people, she encouraged me to leave him on the floor, if that is where he needed to be. And then she did this, what we're seeing on the photo. She got down on the floor with him. She rested next to him while he cried his heart out, and she helped him breathe again. She spoke to him so calmly, and while he screamed and sobbed, she gently kept encouraging him to let it all out. She told people to keep on walking around them so that they would uh so that they um wouldn't stop there and stare and and stare at them. And then she told him it was okay for him to be sad and to feel this way. She understood. She would feel the same way too. His feelings were validated, and she told him that he could lay there with her as long as he needed until he felt better. Wow. Superhero. Absolute uh superhero, Jen Welchell. And quite rightly this was shared, you know, tens of thousands of times uh all around Facebook, and uh a lot of love for this particular uh theme park. I've forgotten uh I think it's Universal Studios um in Orlando. Um and it turns out that they do a lot of uh a lot of training uh for all sorts of uh all sorts of issues, neurological issues, mental health issues, um and uh she was putting her training to good effect, and I just love that idea. I love that idea of getting down with the kids. I love that idea of just while everybody else wanted to pick him up from his meltdown, she joined him and said, I would feel the same way too. And I just thought it was just a lovely um a lovely l little snapshot of the gospel, actually. Um here is one who loves you who actually climbs down into your predicament, tells you that they understand, and then actually lifts you back up, but in a very different way to just kind of grabbing them up. So that happened like a week ago in Florida, um but just on Sunday uh in Cambridge, uh at uh King's College, Cambridge, uh there was a church service and uh a guy called Paul Rimmer, who actually uh works for the university, I I think he's a a professor, um, or a lecturer at least, um, he was there with his, it happened to be a nine-year-old autistic son. And uh interestingly, after his experience with that service, he also took to Facebook. I just think it's interesting. Like everyone everyone takes to Facebook for better or for worse. And he kind of wrote this letter. Do you do you want to um read out what Paul Rimmer wrote to the dean of the chapel after that service?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think we've got it um on here as well. Oh yeah, there we go. You probably won't be able to read that on your screens, but So, dear Reverend Dr. Stephen Cherry, I would like to apologize for bringing my autistic son to Ebensong at your chapel. I'm a resident of Cambridge and a member of the University, and my family and I have attended services at the chapel from time to time. I've always been inspired by the beauty of the building, the worshipful attitude of the service, and the hospitality you've extended to the wider community, as stated in your most recent welcome letter, which expressed your hope that whenever and however you share in the life of the chapel, you will be inspired, encouraged, and refreshed. I'm proud to worship within a communion that is asking the question, how can we enable disabled people to be at the heart of our communities, explore their vacation, and release their gifts? I chose to attend Even Song on Trinity Sunday, also Father's Day, with my two sons, one of whom is autistic. Tristan is nine years old and is a clever and joyful child who loves church buildings, services, and choral music. He is also nonverbal and expresses his excitement by calling out and laughing. His expressions are often loud and uncontainable. It is part of who he is, so there is no realistic way for him to be quiet. Many autistic people are like Tristan in this way. Right before the Curie, one of the ushers informed me that you had instructed him to remove us. Tristan's expressions were apparently interfering with the enjoyment of some of the other visitors, which is very inconsiderate on our part, because tourists come from all over the world to hear the even song. The usher seemed embarrassed but insistent as he asked us to leave, though I'm not unsure if it was because of not not sure if it was because of my son's vocalizations, or because of the nature of the directive you had given him. As a Christian, I believe that worship is primarily intended to glorify God, and may have misinterpreted your even song as an actual worship service, at which my son's expressions must surely be pleasing to God. The experience of other worshippers being secondary. Our removal makes more sense if King's College Evensong were simply a concert held in a building that used to be a chapel. Then my son's expressions would frustrate the purpose of the event, which is primarily performative, lessening the satisfaction of certain tourists around the world who attend, but not those kinds of people you deem to be too distracting. If this is so, I apologise. Might I suggest you place a sign at the front of the chapel, clearly identifying which categories of people are welcome and which are not. I can only imagine how terrible it would be if autistic people, others with disabilities, those with mental illnesses, and people with dementia were all equally welcome to attend Evanson, how this would get in the way of the quali's performance, how it would distract the choristers, and how upsetting seeing these sorts of people at the chapel would be for the tourists who've come such a long way. There we go. So Yeah. I I think I mean I I've you know I've uh read uh Is that where it's meant to be when this is laptop? Laptop. Uh obviously I'm just reading that off the page. I've detected some notes of sarcasm. There might be possibly in there.
SPEAKER_02There may be some sarcasm in there. Yeah. And it is important to note that uh when the dean of the chapel um was made aware of this, Stephen Cherry then um made uh an announcement, and and actually I I thought he he kind of responded to this quite well after the fact. He he said, you know, I was devastated to read the letter that you posted on Facebook this morning. He said, every week we welcome thousands of people to services in King's Chapel. We do our best to meet all their various needs and expectations. Sometimes we fail, and I realize that we especially failed you and Tristan on Sunday afternoon. I apologize for that most sincerely. Since hearing of your experience, I've looked into what happened and now more fully appreciate that there is more that we can do to support and help the staff who are responsible for the welcome that we give those who come to share our services with us. This is one of the reasons that I have written to you asking if you might be prepared to meet with me. I'm sure that your insights and connections could help us do better in the future. I should perhaps say for the record that I did not, in fact, give any instruction to the effect that your son should be asked to leave the chapel on Sunday. Nonetheless, as Dean, I do take responsibility for the whole of the chapel, and in that regard I express my unreserved apology and intention that we will do better in the future. So that that's at least a good apology. Um it's he does set the record straight, but it's it's not a kind of I'm sorry, but it it is, you know, it's it's worthwhile people knowing that he he never made the directive that the child be removed, and uh the dad, Paul Rimmer, um has accepted um that that that that is the case. Um and that you know one of the uh one of the ushers has basically took it and taken it upon himself to sort of remove the autistic child. So at least it's a good example of an apology, I think. And he wants to meet face to face and and in an age where everyone goes to Facebook and instantly, you know, gets the shares, um it's it's good that he's wanting to do things face to face and and you know hard to believe, well it's hard to believe, isn't it though, that uh that in a church setting I mean those are things that shouldn't really happen, should they?
SPEAKER_01No. Ultimately. I mean you would think if there's one place where those you you wouldn't expect those things to occur, it would be in the church. Uh you know, it although of course we know everywhere is you know it's a it's a building full of sinners just like anywhere else, you'd think people would have the common sense to know better. Um it comes to something when Orlando Universal Studios are doing a better job of welcoming people than we are in the church, right? You know? Right, yeah, you know. And they're and and and that's frustrating. Yeah. But there's an element of frustration in me as well that's just like I like how also as as Christians, like how much do we want to air up with dirty laundry? You know, there's that there's part of me that's got that side as well, whilst I whilst I very much think the the the the complaint is correct, again I don't know if I I was just thinking about my own if this was me in that situation, I was thinking about my own heart. Yeah, what am I doing by sh by complaining in the open? Yeah. And also in a manner where I'm clearly being sarcastic and a slight element of that. So you know, I don't want to detract from what the guy says because I think he's he's obviously right, and I would feel that very much the same things. Yes. I but part of me reads that initial letter as the email I would write and then 24 hours not send that email, right? A slightly more grounded email. Yeah. Um I don't know, you know, maybe maybe you know some things, you know, but do that need to be publicly displayed. There'll be lots of people, I'm sure, out there now who will say, Well, that's just church. You know, they'll look at somewhere like King's College Chapel and they'll say, Well, that is just church, isn't it? All over. And and this has proved it.
SPEAKER_02Um whereas if you if you go into the comment sections on any number of the Twitter posts or Facebook posts that have retweeted this or shared it, there's lots of people who say, actually, in my church, you get a brilliant welcome, and they are very geared towards special needs and and all that sort of stuff. And overall, the church is the most inclusive sociological phenomenon the world has ever seen. Oh, absolutely. Ums and and we get it massively wrong all the time. I think clearly um the ushers or whoever it was that that removed the the child, that that that wasn't the right thing to do. Um but yeah, whether whether airing things on Facebook is the right way.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah. And don't we all want to do it though. Oh yeah. Don't I mean let's be honest, whenever something happens, don't you want to just make a comment about it on Facebook? And sometimes you do. Yeah. And and nine times out of ten it blows up in your face somehow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And when you when you post angry, you you write the most brilliant post you'll ever regret. Absolutely. And the dean the dean of the chapel's like, well, let's let's get face to face and let's talk about this. But you know, one good thing might be well, let's let's all get thinking about how we can be more inclusive of uh the neurodiverse in our community, those uh those who have autism, and you know, it is just important to to know the difference between tantrums and meltdowns. You know, meltdown uh for someone with autism is not a tantrum. You know, somebody has has asked, you know, did they know that the child was autistic or just plain behaviour? And uh and of course they wouldn't they wouldn't know um that the child was autistic necessarily. Um although he was pre-verbal, wasn't he? So um so that the the child in the King's College uh case um uh seemed to have uh autism perhaps perhaps a stage um more seriously than than um the one in Or Orlando. But it it's not gonna be obvious. No, people aren't gonna wear a sign or a t-shirt.
SPEAKER_01Well, no, obviously, and the thing is I'm just trying to think, I'm just trying to put myself in that Usher's position. You know, and and there's and and and that is an or there is an awkwardness, isn't there, of like you know, w if you feel you have to say something, is is it you know, there's a real difference between saying, could you go? And can we help in any way? Yes. You know, yes. But but but it it's you know is there a right thing to do? Is the right thing to do nothing? Yeah. Um yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh I don't know. What is yeah, what's the proactive thing? And that's why I think um uh Jen, who worked at Universal's Islands of Adventure, that's the that's the theme theme part that I I I meant to name check earlier, Universal's Islands of Adventure. Um, she she did the thing of actually getting down on his level and and actually um and it was disruptive. You know, other people had to kind of step over them, you know, in order in order to do that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It didn't it didn't um it wasn't just for the smooth running.
SPEAKER_01Exactly, exactly. It didn't brush it aside and and get them out of the way of what was going on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah um so what does it what does inclusion look like and it looks it looks messy when you have people with with uh different special needs and special needs that are not obvious from the outside. Um and so you know it it it reminds me as well that actually there are plenty of issues that we need to be inclusive on. You know, inclusivity is is just uh almost the you know kind of virtue these days. To be to be big on inclusion is the virtue today. But then people kind of narrow it down to gender, sexuality, race. And that that's kind of the only the only three things we care about in in terms of inclusion. But I think it's really important to be inclusive um when it comes to neurodiversity, let's say.
SPEAKER_01I remember I I think it was a I was at one of the youth conferences kind of a few years back, you know, one of the youth workers' conferences, and um I think they were they were talking about kind of including people in in the group. So I remember one person, I can't remember if it was the person who was speaking or someone who gave an example, said that there was a a boy in their their youth group who I think he was autistic, and actually what one of the one of the things they would do that just was really simple was that when they were doing a talk um and the group were all kind of sitting there, he would often stand behind the group um with a leader, and they just have a balloon that they were knocking backwards and forwards. Yes. And like for him it was perfect, and it didn't kind of stop anyone else, you know, kind of being focused. Yes. But he was absolutely kind of in the zone still, yeah. Doing, you know, and he was able to kind of participate. Yeah. And they were saying it was it was a really it wasn't a big deal, you know, it wasn't a h a huge thing for them to do. Yeah. Um it was simply yeah, well, we got a balloon, yeah, and that really you know, we talked to mum and dad.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And it makes a huge difference to parents in that situation. They they feel honored, they feel welcome, they feel like their child truly belongs, as opposed to the King's College um case where yeah, the father just clearly, clearly didn't feel like they were part of things. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And and I do think we d we need to reclaim and celebrate inclusion uh in that true sense. I th I think sometimes conservative Christians feel like inclusion is just uh a baseball bat to bash conservative Christians with. Because we all know what they mean by inclusivity. They mean you must affirm gay marriage in every in every you know sense of the word for every person in order to be inclusive. And so and so we think, well, if that's what inclusivity means, then that I don't want to be inclusive. Whereas actually, you know, the church is the most welcoming institution and the most diverse institution the world has ever seen. Um so it it it means that you know conservative Christians like me need to have a much uh bigger place for the value of inclusion in my thinking. Um and it and it also means that um if you do speak the language of inclusion, um do you speak it as broadly as it ought as it ought to be spoken? Um because actually, you know, there are all sorts of ways that people will mishandle me because they don't understand what I'm struggling with, and there are all sorts of ways that I will mishandle other people because I don't know the hidden things that they struggle with. And I just I just made a uh made a list this morning um for myself of of things where people can end up being insensitive to me um without intending to, um, and yet you know that there are issues that mean that we we mishear each other over over all sorts of things. So uh I'm thinking about you know issues in my life and in my broader um sphere, issues like chronic health issues, mental health, neurodiversity, autism, infertility, childlessness, fostering and adoption, my faith, um, being from another country. I I just sort of listed down there there's eight things where people have and do um said things that are insensitive and done things that are insensitive to me because of, you know, hidden things or things about my identity. And I I reckon there must be at least ten times that number of things where I have been insensitive to other people and said the wrong thing or done the wrong thing, um, because of maybe chronic health issues or mental health or neurodiversity or infertility or childlessness or fostering and adoption. And I I've even been insensitive to other people when I know those issues, like myself. And so like one one response to the fact that we like harm one another with our words, one response to the fact um that that often our words offend each other is that we like put up these lists of here are the thousand things that you must not say, because then you'd be insensitive. But maybe the other thing we should do Is gr you know, uh grow a bit of a a thicker skin and understand that people are not meaning to be harmful, they're not meaning to hurt you in all these different ways, and you know, let's cut each other a little bit of slack and maybe not go straight to Facebook and say, This person was insensitive to my needs that were actually invisible to you. You know? And actually part of being inclusive is the the person who might be offended by something actually saying, I understand, other people need to be educated, they didn't mean to harm me. Let's let's not throw accusations around too quickly. It's something to think about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's just not the age we live in, is it though? No. These days, it's just not the way it is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Instead of cultivating a great heart, we cultivate thin skin. Because thin skin really communicates on Facebook. Really communicates on Twitter and those sorts of things. Um, none of none of this is to take away from uh that brilliant letter that um Paul Rimmer wrote, and I think it'll highlight issues and it will help King's College and it will help churches in general um to be more diverse in that in that great sense. But um but yeah, let's let's also at the same time try to cut each other some slack as well, I reckon. That's my two cents on that. Paul Feasy has joined the conversation, so that's good. Yeah, I'm just checking, you know, keeping an eye on the comments. Yeah. And Kelly, Kelly Prim has made a great point. She says it makes you think about what happens constantly becoming public, doesn't it? I mean, remember that God is always watching, and that He is our ultimate judge of how we've lived our lives. So, you know, if if you're worried that what you do might end up on social media, um, how much more should we realise that God is uh watching?
SPEAKER_01And uh just I mean a really they're just a really stupid example of you know something that didn't get like serious um in any way. Uh but in our town there's uh something called the kebabulance, right? Which is a converted ambulance which sells kebabs and burgers, and it's like an institution, and someone posted on one of the groups about like you know how terrible it was that it was there because the company you know down the road had now closed because of them. Um you know, another fast food chain. And um and and it was like seeing the whole the whole town turn on this one person, and then eventually they were like, Oh, it was it was like 200 comments of stuff, and then this person was like, Okay, well maybe I maybe I got it wrong, you know, like and like and it all ended very amicably, but people were just like my goodness, what's going on here? Like everyone piled in straight away to to have a go at this person. Wow, just all over a kabab. You crowbites, crowds, you're vicious, you know. Absolutely, just all well, we like our kababs, that's what it is, you see. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, Carl Schulton has said, among other things, training would likely help, though a notice on all church doors saying, please express your love of the Lord could be the way forward. Yeah, let's let's all take responsibility uh for how we include and um and make space for others in worship. Uh that would be good as a way forward. So that's uh that was the opening um uh segment in terms of getting down with the kids. Because I I I do think um do check out the the Facebook post um by this mother. Uh it is it is quite heartwarming. I I I did I did kind of yeah, get goosebumps just thinking about that woman getting down on the floor and saying, I feel what you feel when you're ready. We'll we'll rise up again together. Um if that's not a gospel move, uh I don't know what is. Hugh Bourne, who knows about these things, he says, My recommendation for church leaders who want to do inclusion well is to visit butlons for the day and go and learn from the staff who run the shows and kids' funfair. They are great. So it seems like theme parks are leading the way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, I w well exact I don't think we should be ashamed. In a sense, it's embarrassing, isn't it, that they're doing better than us. But in a sense, we shouldn't be ashamed to be like, well, what can we learn? Yeah. Let's just go and go and do it. You know, if people are good at this, yeah. We we do it with other churches, don't we? We th we we th we say, oh that now I mean I can hear it raining here, and I remember someone talking about people parking at Hillsong, and literally you get out of your car and someone's there with an umbrella and walks you up to the door. You know, if you've never you know you're like that's pretty welcoming. Yeah. You know, you we take that from other churches, but there are certainly places that aren't churches that we can learn stuff from, um, even if we don't necessarily get on board with everything else they're doing. Yes. Um they can still have a kind of good value system on stuff like that which we could learn from.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And so and also let's not be threatened by the fact that the theme park showed us the way of Jesus more than the church service did. That that will happen in God's world. Like have you met Christians? You know there's all sorts of hypocrisy out there in the in the Christian world and and we should not be um we should not be uh surprised that we encounter um unchrist-like things in church, and we should not be surprised if we encounter Christ-like things um in the world either. Um yeah, so that was uh yeah, I I was really I was really blessed by by hearing that story of the theme park employee. And uh in the comments on the Facebook Live uh you'll see links to uh to that story, which is very heartwarming. Uh the other thing we wanna wanted to cover um this afternoon is a little thing, a little video that I made uh last night and put up last night um about how do we how do we get down with the kids in the literally milking this phrase there, I feel.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I like it. Can you tell? Can you tell? Getting down with the kids in the t in in the sense of reaching out with the gospel and reaching the culture. And I kind of I had a bit of a rant about not like you, like me. Not like you. You're about to say it wasn't a rant. No, no, it still was. It was basically a rant. On Act 17, which is a kind of a commonplace that people go when they say contextualization, reaching the culture, um, is about uh a kind of a stepping stones model where you sort of take what people already believe, and you say, well, if you believe this, then you could also believe that, and if you believe that, then there's also this, and then there's that, and this would be reasonable, wouldn't it? And you're a hop, skip, and a jump away from the kingdom. Um and sometimes people read Act 17 in that way. Um I don't, really. No? No, no, not so much. No. Um Should we have a look? Should we have a look at some of the verses? Yeah. Who's gonna for those of you at home?
SPEAKER_01I'm about to get very close to the screen.
SPEAKER_03Avert your eyes, children. Avert your eyes.
SPEAKER_02Uh, where are we?
SPEAKER_01Here we are.
SPEAKER_02So Yeah, Acts. There we go. Um so for those unfamiliar with you know the the the passage, here is Acts chapter 17. The Apostle Paul is reaching out and he's going to the heart of classical civilization. He's going to Athens, for goodness sakes. And and although the Romans are sort of ruling the roost in terms of world world domination, um, the Romans looked to the Greeks as the home of culture, the home of the arts, the home of philosophy. And there is Paul taking the gospel to the greatest philosophers that have ever lived, right? Um there there he is at at the heart of Greco-Roman culture. But it's that he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happen to be there. So, you know, he's he's reasoning. Reasoning is a good thing. Um but he reasons in the synagogue and then in the marketplace. And you could imagine that he'll reason in the same kinds of way. He obviously reason reason in a biblical way in the synagogue, and it continues that biblical reasoning out into the marketplace. Yep, seems fair. Seems fair. So a group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers, Epicurean, be happy, stoic, stiff up a lip philosophers, they began to debate with him, and some of them asked, What is this babbler trying to say? Others remarked, he seems to be advocating foreign gods. They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. I am hugely encouraged by that verse. Are you encouraged by that verse, Paul? Just the because Paul's a babbler.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, I'm encouraged by the fact that Paul, one one of Paul's talks was so boring that someone fell asleep and died. You know, that makes me feel good about my preaching.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. He's not impressive in public speaking, don't they say that in Corinth? So yeah, there's lots to learn about Paul. Don't be impressive, bore people to death, and be a babbler. But and so, like, the point is, you know, it's not about how great uh a speaker he is or how much they kind of appreciated his intellect. They didn't. They did not appreciate his you know, his intellectual academic credentials at all. He just babbles, but he babbles about Jesus and the resurrection, which is just hilarious because that those are the two dumbest things he could possibly talk about. You know, Jesus, this crucified Jew, like, who dies in ignominy. Like, why are you talking about him? You know, these these people are cultured, serious people, and you're talking about this crucified Jew and the resurrection, which is the most nuts, despicable, disgusting idea.
SPEAKER_01Well, and it seems that they're, you know, people say people say sometimes that they're about Acts, but Paul doesn't start with Jesus in the resurrection, but it seems pretty clear from that that he does. Right. Because they're saying, what's he babbling about? Because he was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. Yeah. So it does seem like that is his starting point, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_02And so so often people say, well, Acts 17, we don't have to start with Jesus because Acts 17. You're like, have a read of Acts 17, because he does, he does start with Jesus and the resurrection in a way that's that doesn't seem intellectually credible to them. He doesn't seem to be establishing his intellectual credentials first, and then bringing in Jesus. He's just babbling about Jesus and the resurrection. And then they're like, Well, okay, can you can you go to 30,000 feet and give us um the big picture? Um and so, you know, he goes to 30,000 feet and they they brought him to the meeting of the Areopagus where they said to him, May we know what this new teaching is that you're presenting? You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears. We'd like to know what they mean. All the Athenians and the foreigners who live there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas. There we go. There's Western philosophy. In a parenthesis. That's it. You know, so he gets the opportunity to s to speak, but it's not the opportunity that he has earned by being so clever. Or by having gone to Oxbridge, or, you know, whatever whatever. It's it's it's the the opportunity he's earned, if you like, by just being intensely obsessed with Jesus. Not even in a way that they particularly understand. So, you know, so often we we think, you know, the bridge towards a gospel presentation is you don't start with Jesus, and you start with what will win you a hearing. What seems to be winning him a hearing is his intensity about Jesus, you know. Even though they don't quite get it, they're like, okay, there seems to be something here, can you unpack it? Um but yeah, this is not about him being a a great intellect. Um, even though he is a great intellect, but he doesn't lead with that. Um Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said, People of Athens, I see that in every way you are very religious, or you could translate it superstitious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription to an unknown God. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship, and this is what I'm gonna proclaim to you. Now, once again, this is something that people say, you know, that Paul is using this unknown God as a stepping stone towards real belief. Whereas I think what he's saying is, the one thing you guys know is that you don't know God. Like, if there's one thing we can be sure of, it's that you guys are ignorant. Um that seems to be what he's saying. Like, like I don't I don't think he's saying, yes, God is a little bit like this little statue, but much bigger and a little bit more powerful. Like he's he's this is not the stepping stone. He's like, like, look at you guys, you're so superstitious. You you you even have had this miscellaneous god, any other god. Like, this just proves you don't know what you're talking about. So let me let me start from the from the foundation of you guys don't know anything. Which is, you know, which is amazing, you know, to say to these cultured Athenians, but that's where he goes. Um then he says, then he says, the two most nuts things that he can possibly think of. Having talked about Jesus and the resurrection, that those those things are nuts. Then he says, the God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands, and he's not served by human hands as if he needed anything. What's hilarious about that is that is precisely what they are assuming about God. They need to build a house for God. That's why they've got all these idols, they've got these statues everywhere, because they think they've got to build houses for gods, and they've got to leave the you know the milk and the raisins and the and the bits of orange to feed the gods. They've got to serve the gods. That is their assumption. And Paul's like, no, you got completely back the front. God makes a house for us. He serves us. See, rather he gives him he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. And then he he does this whole Adam thing. They didn't believe in Adam, but he just goes there. From one man he made the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth, and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of the lands. And he was like, you know, none of those guys believed in Adam. Nonetheless, he just declared it. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he's not far from each one of us. For in him we live and move and have our being, as some of your own poets have said, we are his offspring. Now this is the point at which people sort of go, oh, okay. Here is the stepping stone, you know, here here is Paul using the culture, you know. I'm sure. Do you do you use any uh do you have any go-to song lyrics or uh Oh it depends on the talk.
SPEAKER_01It's not like ones I bring out every now and again. Yeah. I did a talk on love once, and that was just like every every time I could throw something in, I want to know what love is. You know. No, you picture me. Question is, what is love? Yeah, always milk that is quite a bit.
SPEAKER_02As some of your own poets have said, What is love? Maybe it'll hurt me. Yeah. It's a bit like that. It is a bit, but I think it's a bit like that with Paul, you know. And it's and it's uh who's saying what is love? Is it Hatterway? Oh, is it? That's good knowledge. Let us know in the comments. That's good knowledge. And I want to know what love is that air supply?
SPEAKER_01No. Uh never air foreigner. Foreigner! Because there's that meme, isn't it? Living foreigner coming over here demanding to know what levers. It's one of my favourite tweets. Ever, ever, ever, ever.
SPEAKER_02But you know. I know you can show me. Ah, what's he referring to Jesus there? You know, so like like the preacher takes the takes the quote from Foreigner and presses it into his or her own use, right? And it doesn't mean that Foreigner has particular spiritual insight. Um, and here, you know, Paul is doing something similar. Uh, I always forget who he who it is he's quoting. Um, so I've got the footnotes. Epimened, oh it's epimened.
SPEAKER_01I think I find it's from his uh first album. Yeah. So I still think it's his best.
SPEAKER_02And then uh We Are His Offspring is from Eratus. I don't know. Arratus. Uh do we have any Eratus fans? Aratus fans? I don't know. Never heard of him. Never You're all over Epimenides.
SPEAKER_01A bit mainstream Epimenides, you see.
SPEAKER_02So, you know, so Paul doesn't mind quoting the pop songs, we don't mind quoting the pop songs. But when we when we use those words on our lips, do they mean exactly the same as what they meant on Bruce Springsteen's lips? You know, we've all got a hungry heart. Um the answer I think is no. Um but what's interesting is that Paul is using these guys to like speak against the prevailing views of the day. The prevailing views of the day is that the gods are our offspring, like we make the gods, right? And we make houses for the gods and everything else. And Paul is like quoting, like he's taking this tiny snippet from one philosopher and he's like, Yeah, but come on, what he said, because he's preaching against the culture. Um so he's not using the culture because the culture is a particular stepping stone. Like, even though he's like isolated six words from a philosopher, he's quoting it against the culture, actually, to say you guys have got it backwards. That's what I reckon. And then, as you move on. So, therefore, since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image made by human design and skill. In the past, God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. Repent means change your mind. Why should we repent? Verse 31, for he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. So he started talking about the man, Adam, and now he talks about the the other man, Christ. And through the one man all people uh live. By the other man, Jesus, all people will be raised and judged. Um, and you and you think, well, how do we know that Jesus is gonna judge the world? He's given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead. And what I love about this is that Paul gives no evidence for the resurrection. Yeah. Because the resurrection is his evidence, you see. Exactly. So, yeah, Jesus is gonna judge the world. Jesus, that guy, really? Yeah. What's your proof? Yeah, he did rise from the dead. Oh well. That would make him judge them. Yeah, that would be pretty good. So, you know, and obviously Paul is an apostle, and on his say-so, you know, he speaks with a certain kind of authority. But it is interesting that Paul doesn't give any evidence for the resurrection. The the uh the resurrection is his evidence, and then he calls all people to repent, and some believe and some sneer, and Paul leaves. That's how the the chapter goes on, and I'm always struck by that. Like some people I think I would stay in the Areopagus. I think I would stay in Athens and try to convince those sneerers that I that my beliefs are worthy of respect. Yeah. How dare you be contemptuous of, you know, my views. This is clever stuff. And Paul's not interested in being clever. Yeah. You know, some believe and they clearly probably start a church because they're named as Demaris and uh what's who's the other one who's uh um where is it? Uh some believed Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Demaris and a number of others. So we probably think they're named because they probably started a church in Athens.
SPEAKER_01So we want to be aware who they were who they were.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and so and Paul could safely move on. And he doesn't have to stay and win the argument, because he's not interested in winning the argument. He's interested in s establishing churches around the Mediterranean. Um because that's his great apologetic. Like the people of God really loving one another in the midst of the culture, that's his great apologetic. And so he doesn't stay in the Areopagus to win the debate. He keeps going, Sneer is gonna sneer. So on he goes. Taylor Swift did something a bit like that, didn't she?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Tata's gonna hit.
SPEAKER_02Which is a very Augustinian.
SPEAKER_01Paul's just gonna shake it off. She doesn't care.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Sneer is gonna sneer, so just move on. And and there's a huge, there's a huge thing in evangelism in just moving on. Like the New Testament's just full of it. You know, just shake the dust off your foot, off your feet. Don't keep casting pearls before swine. Paul just leaves. Um you you don't you don't continue to beat down a door that's bolted it shut against you. And so often the reason why I continue to beat at a door that's bolted shut against me is because of my own honour and I want to win the argument and I want to prove that the thing that I believe in is justified and valid. Paul's just not interested in that. And uh and so he moves on. And I I just think Acts 17 actually is a model of our preaching and how we should do it. But that model of of how we preach and how we should do it is not the stepping stones thing. He starts with the most nuts things. Jesus and the resurrection. God made us, we don't make you know, homes for God. God serves us, we don't serve God. There's this Adam guy, and there's this Jesus who was raised from the dead. So believe that. You know, that's his that's his approach. Um and some believe. And some will always believe, because the gospel is God's power for salvation. Um and we don't necessarily we don't need the stepping stones. We do need to proclaim the gospel.
SPEAKER_01Carl uh on the comments, Carl Schultz said, Many people I meet are theists, God is to them that miscellaneous God, with a pres presumably with uh presumably a label saying use in emergency only. Yeah. I think that's true, isn't it? That for a lot of people there are a lot of people who believe in God actually. Probably more there's probably more theists um even in our secularized Western society than there are atheists. Oh yeah. Even if they only think about it in emergencies.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Even that they did that um poll in 2017 in America, Pew Research, and they discovered 20% of people, even the 20% of people who said they don't believe in gods, they were asked, but do you believe in supernatural realities or you know, and and 10%, like like half of that 20%, said, Oh yeah, no, absolutely tells me. Right, yeah, yeah. They believe in like and they believe in things like the afterlife and supernatural powers and entities. Um so yeah, most people believe in God. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I suppose that's where the that's that's where um the kind of qu classic questions we've always talked about come in about, you know, well, which God and what what gods, you know, what do you think this god is like? And how do you know that God is like that? You know, and you you say like when things, you know, in emergencies you might pray to God, but how do you know this God even cares? Like, you know, why do you think that God would answer you, or why do you think that God would answer anyone? Or even listens, you know. Right. There's there's ways in there, aren't there, of just saying let me tell you about this God.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um which is what Paul does. He goes to thirty thousand feet, and I think that that is that is good in evangelism. You know, you can babble about Jesus and the resurrection. I think that's that is that is what we lead with. Um but then there might be points where you say, Oh, can I go to thirty thousand feet and give you the bird's eye view? And you know, he does an Adam and Christ thing and tells a story, and some believe and some sneer. But um so it it is a model of evangelism, Act 17. I just don't think Act 17 says what a lot of people claim that it does say. Um but if you've got more questions about that, uh let's get into a conversation in the comments. And andor you can have a look at the video that we posted last night on YouTube um called Faith, no, Reason, Faith, and Evangelism. Uh, how does Acts 17 fit with 1 Corinthians 1? Um so you can check that out. Well, that will do us, I think, for now. Um but do do please be praying for this mission Christ uh Christchurch Bandstead. Um I'll be uh speaking uh every evening between now and Sunday night. So uh yeah, if you've got some prayers to spare, pray that have you got a prayer to spare? If you care. Uh and then uh yeah, we will see you next week. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Anything more to say?
SPEAKER_01I I don't think so. I think I think we're back. That's the last word on yeah, those topics. That's it. The final word. Nothing more need to be said. Many people are just wishing it was. This is the final word, I promise. Oh, this one. This is no no no, I mean this is gradually. I mean this is getting closer to the laptop to see you later. Take care, we'll see you around. Bye bye. Bye bye.