The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life. Hello. Hey, welcome everybody. Welcome to the live cast. Good to see everybody again.
SPEAKER_02Yes, here we are in our studios here in Eastbourne, but not in our studios. Not quite in our studios.
SPEAKER_01No. Still in our office space at least.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we can't wait. Next week we're going to show you a little video we've been making about all the refurbishments that we've done in the office.
SPEAKER_01Yep, and we've had some some interns kind of coming in to meet us and do bits, and we've got them basically already set them to work, haven't we? Yeah. Making that video. Oh fantastic.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And so yeah, we'll we'll have about half a dozen uh young people coming. The youth! The youth are coming. Yep, absolutely. Um but uh yeah, I mean some are aged nineteen and some are aged 31, and actually we've had uh applicants from all over the world, and we've appointed uh a number of them already, some from America, one from New Zealand, and a few from England. So yeah, so we're really looking forward to the internship. Uh, if you want to come and join us as an intern, uh I'm afraid we've closed our applications for 2019, but do be thinking about 2020. Uh, could you be someone who'd uh like to come and join us at Speak Life? And uh we're very excited about this opportunity. We want to study together, go on mission together, and produce resources together in our new refurbished studios. And I think it'll be a really exciting time. And uh yeah, get in touch via the website speaklifefoundry.com. And if you can think of people who would be interested in joining us, then uh let them know those details.
SPEAKER_01And I guess next time, next year, when we come to year two, we'll have an even better idea of what it looks like, won't we, really, than we had this time round? Because obviously, first time round, yeah, we've got some ideas, but it could change as we go.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And what with the new space? We're still not 100% certain exactly the different ways we'll use it, but I'm sure we'll discover it over the next kind of 12 months. So we should have a much clearer view.
SPEAKER_02But I think whether you come and join us in the foundry or not, I think it should be uh for the benefit of all those uh who tune in to Speak Life because I I think I did the rough maths the other day. I think it means we will spend between five and six times the amount uh of sort of man hours on media production. Um, just having the interns around. So um that's that's gotta count for something, right? So today we thought we would talk about why we must be Trinitarian. Yes. And why are we talking about Trinitarian theology today?
SPEAKER_01Well, today, because a few days from now, on Sunday, it is Trinity Sunday. Trinity Sunday. Apparently. Yes. But powers that we have decreed, despite being deeply embedded in the Anglican Church. Yes. I have little to no knowledge of these. You've made ever gone to Anglican Church. Pretty much. Yeah, but you still refuse to go to get on board, you know, with any of the things.
SPEAKER_02Yep. So it was Church of Wales and then Church of England. You've never gone anywhere else.
SPEAKER_01Well, no, no, I went to um I went to Beast and Free Church for a while. What, a couple of years. Well, not even that long. I went to the New Frontiers Church in uh Nottingham for one, isn't it? What Grace Church? It was in Knott's County football grounds. Okay. In the in the bar, not in like the terraces.
SPEAKER_02For like three Sundays.
SPEAKER_01No, no. For I I don't know how long I went for. No, we've got a we we've got a PR problem. People brought up in the church just won't identify as Anglican.
SPEAKER_02Goodness mate.
SPEAKER_01I did say the other day because I I was doing a sermon on um well, part of it was to do with like Bible reading and stuff, that was part one angle of it. Um and I was saying how I'd started using I'd actually started doing like morning prayer or like evening prayer depending on, you know, the time of the day. But I said like I felt a little bit dirty, like because like a bit Anglican, it was like, ooh, it's like Anglican. It's not a dirty word. Honestly. It is in some circles, let's be honest. That's true, that's true.
SPEAKER_02But within Anglican circles and Catholic circles and Orthodox circles, um it's Trinity Sunday coming up. And Trinity Sunday is always what I what I like about why why is this particular Sunday Trinity Sunday? It's because we've had Easter, we've had Ascension, we've had Pentecost Sunday, last Sunday, and then when you reflect back on the events of the gospel, then you talk about Trinity. And what I love about that is that it's saying that the Trinity is not about philosophical speculation about an idea, it's actually about evangelical reflection on the gospel. Um who is this God who has given us his son at Easter and given us his spirit at Pentecost? And the answer is the Trinity. And so it is Trinity Sunday, and it's also Father's Day on Sunday, which is one of those nice koinky dinks. Yes, nice. Yes, and um and so we thought, you know, may maybe you are tasked with preaching this Sunday on Trinity Sunday, or maybe you'll be going along and your church will either name check Father's Day or Trinity Sunday or both. Uh or you're just involved in sharing the gospel in one way or another. Uh we think you must be Trinitarian. You absolutely must be. Um And we've come up with ten reasons why you must be Trinitarian. So we have a look at those ten reasons.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think I've actually got the uh little picture. There we go. There we go. There are ten reasons for those of you on the podcast. I've just got the ten first. Here's a ten for those of you listening. We've got uh number one. At number one this week, it's God with a bullet. Hanging in there at number two. So secondly, we've got Jesus, then we have creation, fall, redemption, choice in uh quotation marks there, consummation, reaching Islam, reaching the secular, and mission. So those are our ten right there. Four reasons we must be trinitarian. The first reason we must be trinitarian is God. Why why have we put that number one at all? Well, we've got this great quote from Calvin. Calvin said, if we think about God without thinking Father, Son, and Spirit Sorry. No, this isn't his quote, this is the quote. Only the bare and empty name of God flits about in our brains to the exclusion of the true God.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01So it it's about the nature of God, isn't it? Right. So it it like for a long time, I think I think many Christians do think like this, Doe, and and and I used to think like it. Um the Trinity is kind of something you you try and keep off the cards for as long as possible because you think this is much too confusing and this is like the advanced level. Absolutely, that kind of thing. But actually if this is about i i we're talking about the very nature of God, aren't we? When we're talking about the Trinity, um who God is in his very being. And so it's odd to to not talk about it and to then actually not only not talk about it, but talk about God simply as a a monad. A monad. God only starts. Yeah, absolutely. We it's not even we kind of we we just do a very strange thing where we talk about a generic God figure, yes um, which not only doesn't do any justice to the Trinity, but also there's massive complications, uh massive kind of um opportunities for misunderstanding of other people, isn't there, where we assume everyone understands what we mean when we say God. Right.
SPEAKER_02Um Yeah, so yeah, we need to figure out which God we're talking about. Yeah. And it's just remarkable when you say, I don't want to do Trinitarian evangelism. You basically don't want to talk about God then. And actually it's remarkable how much evangelism would get along just fine without talking about God.
unknownYou know?
SPEAKER_02It'll talk about the fall and your problem, and there's need some need for atonement so that you'll go to heaven and not hell. Yeah. But where's God in all that? And and I think people figure they can get away with non-Trinitarian evangelism mainly because their gospel doesn't include God. So But I I'm I'm often thinking about like Patrick, you know, so Patrick goes to Ireland and brings the gospel to Ireland. And what is what is he known for doing? He's known for teaching the Irish about the Trinity from a shamrock, you know. Um here's this piece of clover, you know. Isaiah says, What shall we liken God unto? and and Patrick thinks, I know. How about this this piece of grass? Um now the shamrock is not a good analogy for the Trinity, and I don't think analogies are a good idea in general. But what was he trying to do? He was trying to introduce the Irish people to God, and not any old God, the triune god, um, the God who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So um that was just obvious to him. Like it was obvious that the first thing he needed to do was say, right, now, father, son, and spirit, let me explain. And that that is like the last thing we want to explain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's going on? What's going on when God is just peddled to people as this generic thing, and we can we can talk about who this God is later. Let's just get a concept out there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's a problem.
SPEAKER_01And it does get confusing, doesn't it? Yeah. It gets very confusing. I think I've said it before on it here, um, at the risk of repeating myself, the kind of you do your boxes of two ways to live, and then Jesus suddenly appears, and well, who is this Jesus? Well, Jesus is God. Hang on a second, I thought he was the son of God. And you're like, yeah, and and then you're like, oh we uh we we've already confused people here, haven't we? Right.
SPEAKER_02So Well let's let's do that as point number two, because like point number two Because we're into Jesus here, yeah. Yeah, so so why must we be Trinitarian? Because of Jesus, right? Because who is this Jesus? And if you just begin with the monad with God on his todd, up there by himself, and then later you introduce Jesus, well then the the question is well who's this guy?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and then that that is literally the experience I've had in in schools, in secondary schools with teenagers. It it's a real confusion. Yes. Um I suppose as well for them, most most of what they'll have learned is primarily come from what they'll have learnt in an RE class, so it's quite likely that their teacher hasn't really had a particularly good grasp on the trin the Trinity or anything either, so they're coming with literally nothing, yeah, really. And then we start in a very confusing place. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And if so if if you've begun with you know, some kind of figure, some kind of creator, let's say, a power that is beyond this world, and then later on you introduce this Jesus figure, you've got a question like, how does this Jesus figure relate to God? And one way of doing it, one very common way of doing it, is saying, Oh, he is God. He's God in skin. Yeah. Well, alright. But then this Jesus figure, he ends up praying to God. Yeah. And on the cross, he's paying a debt to God. I thought he was God. Like, what what's what's going on? And people end up smooshing Jesus up into this monad, into this, and and that heresy.
SPEAKER_01And this like, isn't it, that God's God was going along up here, we're all down here, God's going along, going along, and then he's like, I'm just gonna come down here, go along, and then I'm gonna go back again. Right. I'm gonna go to spirit form, you know. It's like Pokemon, you know, you change your level. Yeah. So he's uh now in the spirit form, but then that just becomes weird, doesn't it? Because you're like, well, how when Jesus is on the cross and he's saying, My God, my god, why have you forsaken me? Well, if he is God, what's he talking about? Like, who's he talking to and who's he praying to, and yeah, whose whose right hand does he ascend to be seated at? Like his own, like it's just very odd when you start getting into that stuff.
SPEAKER_02Which is why the Trinity is a reflection back on the gospel, it's not a philosophical speculation, it's like it's thinking about who is Jesus. Um, and Jesus is constantly described as the Christ, the Son of God. You know, that's how Mark's Gospel begins. It's how Mark's Gospel is structured. You know, first Peter says that you are the Christ in in Mark 8, and then the centurion says you are the Son of God in Mark 15. The whole gospel is structured around he's the Christ, he's the Son of God. John's Gospel is structured around Jesus being the Christ, the Son of God. And what does that mean? It means he is the anointed one, anointed with the Spirit, and he's the Son of the Father. So to know Jesus is to be introduced to these other two persons. But if you don't begin with Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God, but you begin with this monad called God, either you're gonna squish Jesus up into this one being of God, and that's called mogalism, right? Or Mike Reeves calls it, um He likes to call it mood moodalism. Moodalism Moods. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, as God has a God has a sort of fatherly mood. Yeah, and then he changes his mood and he has a genius mood. Yeah, a son-like one. And then he points out the issues with you know, you can't you can't really say you're a child of God if if if at one point God decides he's not gonna be father anymore, he's in the son mood, and you can't be in the sun if he's not.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um and then he becomes spiritual. Yeah, yeah. Which, if you are into analogies, um the the H2O analogy is modalism. Um Rene McMahon has said analogies work if relational ones. I think there's some truth to that. I think you know one of the massive problems with you know likening God to a shamrock is that shamrock's not particularly personal. H2O is not particularly personal, but if you use the analogy of, you know, ice becomes water, becomes steam, um, then you're basically saying like the father becomes the son, becomes the spirit. Yeah. And he has three states, but he's never all three at once.
SPEAKER_01Some people try and use the one, don't they, about you you can be a father and a son and a brother or something, you know, that kind of thing. But that's even that doesn't quite that is more relational. It's more about relationships, but it it still kind of falls down, doesn't it? Because you're you're you're still just a solitary figure operating in different modes. Modes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it is, it is modernism again. So that's true. So just because just because it's a relational analogy doesn't mean it's it's gonna do the work for you as a Trinitarian analogy. I uh often the thing the thing that I often think on analogies is that if if there's anything that's more problematic than the analogies themselves, it's our perceived need for them. Like why why do we think we need water isoscene when you can just say, well, God is a father always loving his son in the joy of the spirit.
SPEAKER_01So do you think one of the reasons we we struggle or people do struggle so much with the Trinity in trying to get it is that we're we're trying to take this idea of three and one. So all those all those illustrations are trying to make three and one identical at the same time. Right. Whereas whereas some of the stuff maybe maybe more of the stuff you've said before is that you've got this threeness and the oneness is not so much about a numerical oneness, it's a oneness in union and uh of unity and and love. Yeah. Um so it's not it's not like you you it's it it's just very difficult, isn't it? As soon as you start trying to make everything if you're trying to make them physically one being and physically three, you know beings, yeah. Yeah, that becomes very complicated and I think maybe that's where that's what it seems a lot of the illustrations are trying to do. Yeah. Make something physically one thing and physically three. Yes.
SPEAKER_02As though the threeness and the oneness exists at the same level, whereas actually the creeds say God is one being in three persons. So the the creeds never say that God is one being and three beings. Weird, right? But that's what we try to do with the analysis. Yeah, yeah. He's one being and he's three beings. No, no, he's definitely not three beings. Or, you know, he's he's three persons and he's one person. No, he's not one person. He's three persons. Sure. One being. Um and and those are distinct, you know, Greek words that have distinct meanings. Um and so the threeness and the oneness operate at different levels. Um but they're totally mutually informing. So the the oneness of God is precisely the union of those three. Um and the and the three only find their concrete particular identity by being united. So the father is only the father because he's got a son, and he's so in the son, and the son is so in him that he's related to the son, but that gives him his own concrete particular identity as father, and it gives the son.
SPEAKER_01Which is why also the kind of the I mean yeah, I I've got a pretty good idea what some I mean, who we got down here? Philip King has posted talking about Patrick, can't forget this one on YouTube clip. I'm pretty sure I already know what that king is. I know what that is for Patrick's bad analogies, I'm pretty sure it's from Tata, I'm pretty sure it's that.
SPEAKER_02Tell us if we're wrong.
SPEAKER_01But it's the sometimes you go the other way and the it's the kind of Power Rangers Boltron, three things coming together into one thing.
SPEAKER_02Which is James Easter has just said, is it more like a three-a-side sport team? Right. Um, in that three teammates are not in one another, in the same way that Father, Son, and Spirit are. Um one guy could get injured or substituted off the off the team, and suddenly you've just lost a third of the team, and that is that is so beyond impossible with the Trinity. It's it you can't even contemplate it. The son cannot leave the band and begin a solo career. He is the son. If he ceases to be united to the father, then he ceases to be who he is. He is the son of the father. And so it's it's not it is absolutely not that there are three persons who happen to get on really well with one another, and you know, the father says, Oh, Jesus, you can cook, spirit, you can clean, and you know, together we'll build a world. Um it's absolutely not that there are three distinct individuals who do who get on really, really well together and decide to form this team. Um they are so in one another, they cannot exist without one another. They are yeah, they are in one another and unlosable from from one another. Um so so yeah, it's not just it's not just there's a team with three three players. And and this is why I often I I don't quite like the language of God is a family, um, and the family is made up of three members, father, son, and spirit. Uh when I say who God is, I always say God is a father, always loving his son in the joy of the spirits, because I don't want to give the impression that there's this fourth thing called a family. Right. Yep. I want to I want to keep on focusing on the persons who are utterly.
SPEAKER_01When their powers combine, they become God. Right, you know, that kind of thing. Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Which is a heretic called partialism. You know, the the the father is just 33.3% God and the son is only 33.3% God. No, they are totally in one another. And we just read in in staff prayers this morning, Jesus says, If you've seen me, you've seen the Father. Um so to have Jesus is to have the living God because the Father is in him. And that's you know that's what he says in John 14.
SPEAKER_01So it's not hard, people. Isn't it? Come on. Do we want to quickly, before we go on to the next bit, yeah, a question familiar about Paul Huxley's one. Yes. Um some Christians will argue that Christians and present-day non-Messianic Jews worship the same God, whereas Muslims worship different gods. I say otherwise because of the Trinity thoughts.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um check out, if you haven't already, Paul, I did a video on um uh Ben Shapiro and William Lane Craig. They had a video together. Um, and in that video I I go into this in in great detail. That actually the the Hebrew scriptures are utterly Trinitarian, and I know I know Paul, you and I, we've we've chatted about that quite a lot, and and uh you've been very helpful to me in thinking through those thoughts too. So the the Old Testament scriptures are absolutely tripersonal, um, and they proclaim a God who we would call Trinitarian on this side of the Council of Nicaea. Um and so what you've got is the Hebrew scriptures uh speaking Trinitarianly. Jesus comes along and he just assumes a Trinitarian you know view of God, and even his enemies seem to be quite trinitarian in the way that they think. So when Jesus claims in John chapter 5 that he is the son of the Father, the Pharisees pick up stones to stone him because they say, You're claiming to be the son of the Father. That means you're equal to God. Oh, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_01So even the enemies of Jesus. It's not a new concept to them, is it? It's like they're not kind of going, What is this new idea that you're bringing up here? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So even the enemies of Jesus are Trinitarian. And remember in Mark chapter twelve, Jesus quotes Psalm 110, and he says, Well, whose son is the Messiah? Because David, speaking by the Spirit, says, Psalm 110, the Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet. So there are two persons called Lord in heaven. And Jesus just like quotes that, and all the people are like, Yep, yep, Your Honor. And and so Jesus is kind of speaking against the religious authorities of his day, but the people totally get what he's saying. There are two powers in heaven, and that was a that was a common phrase in intertestamental in the intertestamental period in the Second Temple, in Second Temple Judaism, there are a whole bunch of people who believed Psalm hundred and ten.
SPEAKER_01What do you think? 'Cause because hearing because you know Across the two powers in heaven thing before. What would we say then? Because I imagine there'd be a lot of people then who are Christians who might kind of hear that and go, Okay, that's great, but why is there a two power in heaven idea and not a three power in heaven idea? Because we're Trinitarian, so why two and not three? Like where's the spirit?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What's the spirit doing?
SPEAKER_02You know, like how's that work? So even people who um held to the two powers in heaven, people like Philo, who was writing around about the year dot, so he was he was writing before Jesus was teaching, and he he was in Alexandria, so he had no access to Jesus of Nazareth, but he was just reading the Hebrew scriptures, and he's he he talked about how in Daniel 7 you've got the ancient of days who rules through the Son of Man, who is to be worshipped and glorified. Um he would point to places like Psalm 110, he would he would talk about how God always works through his word, who he calls the deuterosteos, which means the second God, the second deity, right? Um but even he would also talk about um the spirit and the personality and the divinity of the spirits. But I I think in particular they they seem to um latch on to places like Daniel 7, um, where you've got the ancient days and the Son of Man. They would know that that those two powers in heaven rule through the divine spirits, uh, but that wasn't front and center in their thinking. And there's a case to be made that in the New Testament that's quite similar, that actually what what you have most prominently in the New Testament is the Father-Son. And the Spirit is often called the shy member of the Trinity because his job is always to glorify the Father and the Son and to point away from himself. And Jesus, in fact, does that in Mark chapter 12. He says, David, speaking by the Spirit, says, The Lord said to my Lord. So by the by the divine spirit, David comes to know the two powers, the Father and the Son. So, back to Paul Huxley's um question. Um The Hebrew Scriptures are, let's call him Trinitarian or Proto-Trinitarian or whatever. The Hebrew scriptures are Trinitarian. Jesus comes along, and a whole bunch of people believe in him, a whole bunch of people don't. On the day of Pentecost, a whole bunch of people believe in him, but still there are unbelieving Jews. Um and what happens is that the Christian movement grows and grows and becomes more and more popular, and it becomes particularly popular with those who have this more Trinitarian understanding of who God is, that there is a divine Messiah, not just a political messiah, but a divine messiah. And they jump shipped to Jesus because that's that's his thing. And so all those who are more Trinitarianly minded of the Jews, they became Christians, right? Um and this is this is even what Orthodox Jews today say. Um so I'm trying to think of the guy who wrote the book uh The Two Powers in Heaven. Uh name escapes me right now. Um he he wrote a book um back in the 1980s, I think, and and it's still uh Alan Siegel. Alan Siegel, that's right. Um and and he said, you know what happened is Two Powers in Heaven was a totally um commonplace view. It wasn't the only view um about who God is, but among Jews, Two Powers in Heaven was totally commonplace, and those who tended to believe that jumped ship to the Christian thing. Um when the non-Christian Jews um decided to to kind of oppose the Christian church and harden against the Christian Church, it was only in the second century AD that the Two Powers in Heaven was declared heretical. And the reason, the reason, the major reason being, even according to Alan Siegel, is they wanted to reject Jesus. So the true the true Hebrew understanding of God is Trinitarian. If you want to reject Jesus, then you start to become less Trinitarian, and from the second century onwards, Judaism became more and more Unitarian. And then you get, you know, six centuries later, six centuries later, you get this other prophet who crops up in the wilderness called Muhammad, who becomes such an opponent of Jesus that he really hardens and says, say not three, and he's utterly non-Trinitarian. So what it is, if you ask me, is you've you've got the Hebrew understanding of the Trinity going along. Um those who depart from Jesus, first among the Jews, um, become more Unitarian, and secondly among the Muslims, they become Unitarian. Yeah. Um but what the Bible's always been talking about has been a Trinitarian God.
SPEAKER_01You should have done that interview with uh Ben Shapiro. Maybe. Maybe. That was the thing that frustrated me most about that thing was that whilst I I've got a lot of time for William Lane Craig's thing, I'd rather he'd, you know, when Ben Shapiro said things like the Jews were never expecting a Messiah like this or whatever, and I wanted to be like, just point him to the verses, take him to scripture and show him all these bits about what what the Messiah will do and the one God was gonna God was gonna come and what he was gonna do and all these things, but he doesn't do that, he's just more arguing for a uh like look, we can trust the resurrection, here's some rational arguments, which is fine, yes, but I just think yeah, it would have been far better to have been able to say, like, what about this whole ancient of days, son of man, and two powers in heaven, and who's this figure that meets with Abraham and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, all that stuff.
SPEAKER_02Which I mean, I guess William Lane Craig, he's in his wheelhouse. He's in his wheelhouse when when he's with secular people trying to show them the rationality of a belief in some kind of a god. Yeah, so starting from with like a nothing Ben Shapiro believes in some kind of a god. Yeah, and he also believes it's rational. Um, but it would have been a more fruitful discussion if they'd actually talked about the Hebrew scriptures. Yeah, a bit more than a little bit. Yeah, I think that would have been really good. Um but yeah. Paul Huxley says, thanks guys. Um no worries, Paul. Um Paul Bus says, what makes Christianity is the Trinity. So said Karl Barth. Um and we had another great quote um from Broughton Knox. Uh Simon Jackson said the doctr uh quoting Broughton Knox says, The doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of the Christian religion. Unless this doctrine is held firmly and truly, it is not possible to be a Christian, for the Christian is one who acknowledges Jesus as Lord, yet adheres to the religion of the Bible, which emphasizes so strongly that there is only one God. So, yeah, doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of the Christian religion. So we must be Trinitarian. So we've given we've given reasons why um why we must be Trinitarian. First of all, God. Secondly, we won't understand who Jesus is unless you've got a Trinitarian framework. He's you know, because he comes to planet Earth and he starts praying. Who's he praying to? Yeah, it's just it's just weird otherwise, isn't it? So God and Jesus make you want to be Trinitarian. And and then thirdly, we're gonna we're gonna go through sort of the the the four points of of um uh very popular gospel presentation.
SPEAKER_01Might have to move more quickly on these ones. Yeah, definitely will. So creation.
SPEAKER_02Um so if you if you ever pick up a gospel tract, let's say, and it and it says um God is the creator, therefore, dot dot dot, how does that sentence usually conclude?
SPEAKER_01Uh normally with a kind of you you owe God something, therefore. Right. You owe God. Yeah. Yeah, you yeah. God made you, you owe him. Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and so God is definitionally creator, and then we are definitionally those who owe God stuff. And so um the the whole thing is founded on what it is that we arrow up uh to offer God. Whereas I think if you if instead of starting with the creator-creature distinction, if instead we start with the father-son union, then we've got an eternally generous God who makes the world, and if you see that God is eternally generous and effusive and overflowing and outgoing, and then he makes the world, God made the world, therefore, like I think you finish that sentence by saying, therefore, God is a giver. And look how spectacularly he gives. There's the horsehead nebula, and there's the Grand Canyon, there's the Swiss Alps, and um God is giver. And then your gospel presentation unfolds in a quite different way from God made you, therefore God is taker. Um God made you as an expression that God is giver. Um I think that's that's quite a fundamental difference. Um we move on to point two. Sure. So so if God is creator, and then in the the four-point gospel presentation, there's always creation and then fall. And how how are how is the full usually kind of articulated in in gospel presentations?
SPEAKER_01Well, it's normally the like we've rebelled against God. Um and therefore we are under judgment. There's nothing we can do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um it it just seems like sin is often cast as not giving to God what we ought to give to God. Um whereas I wonder if if we start with a Trinitarian doctrine of God, actually sin starts to even more be we don't receive from the generous God. Um here is a God who is always pouring out his spirit and always sending his son, and um and yet we are the ones who close ourselves off. And therefore we're graspy and greeding greedy and you know, we're rebels, and we don't want to sit under the rule of God, and and all those things are true, but I I wonder if they are first true because we fail to receive from a generous God.
SPEAKER_01Like uh I think we we sometimes I think we paint stuff the wrong way wrong way round. So when we talk about we take Adam and we say like Adam was in this relationship with God and then he sinned and the relationship was broken, and we often do that with us, that we say, like, we've sinned, our relationship with God is broken, but actually I think it's the other way round for us, isn't it? That our relationship is broken and therefore we sin. And so when we talk about sin and we say like you know, this is a sin and that's a sin and whatnot, well of course they are, but they're only symptoms of the problem, which is the broken relationship, the disconnection from God. Right. And if we simply cast the problem as being we do wrong things, yeah, then the solution will be good do good things, wouldn't it?
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Um but that's not obviously obviously not the solution uh we want to go for.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, that's totally right. So I think we often do cast it the wrong way around.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And it I mean it's interesting, I mean, whenever you see like the nature of sin defined in like the Westminster Confession of Faith or in catechisms and that that kind of thing, often they'll go to proof texts that say that um sin is um lawlessness. Uh so you get that from one John, isn't it? Yeah, sin is lawlessness. Um which is interesting because that it doesn't say there sin is rebellion against the law, sin is transgression of the law. It says sin is lawlessness, which is different from transgression. Um so even when you go to those proof texts, you can't make them say what you want them to say. And I just wonder why we don't go to John 16 more, where Jesus literally defines for us what sin is. You know, so John 16, verse 8, when the Holy Spirit comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment, about sin, because people do not believe in me.
SPEAKER_01And that comes up again. I knew there was another reference somewhere, John 3 18, whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because what's it gonna say? And is it gonna say because they stole some pencils from work? Right, you know, no, because they've not believed in the name of God's one and only son.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And that's so striking it's so striking, isn't it? That that that's it says you're condemned because you've not believed. Right. Right. That that is quite different to the way sometimes we we envision stuff in our minds. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And especially because in in John 1 verse 12, it defines believe as receive. So, you know, to all those who believed in his name. To all those who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. So believing is receiving, and receiving is believing. So our big problem is is not so much that we don't do the right stuff before God, our big problem is that we don't receive the gift of God, who is Jesus.
SPEAKER_01Jordan. Jordan could do with that, couldn't he? In your video that'll be coming out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, don't a video on Jordan Peterson, it'll be the video to end all videos. There won't be any more need for Jordan Peterson videos after the serious, serious.
SPEAKER_01But there's a man who who who who simply needs to receive rather than thinking about having to attain something, you know, some level.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01No. Yeah. Yeah, he's totally arrow up. Um for him, it's all on him and behaviour and taking responsibility for your own sin effectively and bearing the burden of it and working it off and be Jesus. Yeah, be yeah. That's that is essentially what it is. It's taken up your own cross in entirely, you know. Right. Right. And he just needs that top-down thing, doesn't he, rather than bottom up.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and it all begins with doctrine of God, actually. Is your God fundamentally taker, or is your God fundamentally giver? And really, unless you've got the Trinity, I don't see how you've got a God who's anything other than fundamentally taker. But the God who is always Father pouring out life to his son in the Spirit, Son always uh offering up worship to the Father in the Spirit, then you've got a a generous, giving God. Without that, God is just an eady-greedy taker, um and everything goes wrong. So in these gospel presentations, it's usually the four points of creation, fall, and then redemption. Um and I I think it's it's really interesting when it comes to the cross. Uh John Stott wrote um the book The The Cross of Christ, just a fantastic book on the atonement. Uh if you haven't read it, um, do get a copy. And uh he starts to talk about different caricatures of the cross. Um uh caricatures of penal substitutionary atonement, the idea that Jesus bore our penalty as our substitute on the cross. Um Have you ever heard some bad analogies of the cross, some bad explanations of atonement?
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, I mean we know the the kind of the the the child cosmic child abuse one which kind of came out, didn't it, a few years ago? Um and then Because because it's like the father just beats up on his son. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so it and and the one about kind of, you know, there's the man in a well, it could be a bus or whatever, couldn't he? And he's he can run over his son or he can drive off, you know, he so he can drive off the cliff. Right.
SPEAKER_02With a with a bunch of people.
SPEAKER_01With a bunch of people in the back, yeah, you know, run over the son.
SPEAKER_02If he turns the wheel, he'll mow down his son. Yeah. What does he choose to do? Yeah. Kill his son or kill a bunch of people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and that's the and and and and none of those really do justice to uh uh a figure who can say, you know, I lay down no one takes my life from me, I lay down on my own accord, and all those things, you know. And there's no there's no there's no your will be done in that is there, or anything like that. There's not no obedience, there's no yeah, there's nothing at all of it there. And so you can see where they're coming from, but like without without some caveats end up a little off a little off piste there.
SPEAKER_02I've heard so many times it's like bus driver analogy, or some version of a train, you know, guy on the train tracks, and and he decides to mow down his son instead of have the uh the other people die. And then then the preacher's gonna say, Do you want to trust this god? Do you? It's like most people are pretty uncomfortable at that stage about trusting that figure who who would just mow down his son.
SPEAKER_01And then you can be one of his children.
SPEAKER_02That's how he treats his kids. I mean, I'm not so sure. I heard a really bad analogy of the cross where there was a guy and and he was preaching and he and he said, Um, you know, I've got a punching bag downstairs in the basement, and sometimes when I get really frustrated with life, I just go down and I just punch the punching bag for an hour, and I feel a hundred times better when I come back up. And Jesus was God's punching bag. God was feeling frustrated with us. And instead of taking it out on us, on the household, he goes down into the basement and pounds his son for an hour, and then he feels so much better, and up he comes. A man, no way. Would you like to trust this God?
SPEAKER_01I'd expect I'd expect that to come out of the mouth of the atheist trying to just take down pretending this is what it's like, even though it's not like that at all. To come out of somebody who's actually stood up and preaching that is just crazy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, and and what we must do is absolutely maintain the father-son unity in all things. The father-son unity in all things. The son volunteers, the son lays down his life, you know. And I love that in John 11, where John 10, sorry, John 10, 17, where he says, The reason my father loves me is that I lay down my life only to bring bring it back up again. And so it's this idea that, of course, Jesus is eternally loved by the Father. And so, in him laying down his life and raising up again, that's some kind of mirror of the eternal life of God. The Son is always kind of bowing to the Father and responding back again, and the Father is sort of lifting him back up again. There's there's always that kind of give and take in the life of God, because they're they're completely united in the cross. And Simon Jackson has just asked, did the Godhead rupture at the cross? In a word, no. Um, absolutely not. 2 Corinthians 5, verse 21, God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. Um I just think that's that's just so vital. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. And uh and John Stott's got this great line in the the cross of Christ. I think we've got it on this come up, haven't we? Is this the one you've got on there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here we go. What's it saying? John read it off there. At the root of every caricature of the cross there lies a distorted Christology. In particular, it is essential to affirm that the love, the holiness, and the will of the Father are identical to the love, the holiness, and the will of the Son. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. And that's that's that's the whole problem with the cosmic child abuse analogies. It's it's as though God zaps this Jesus figure over here. So that he can be nice.
SPEAKER_01He's a third party. An absolute third party. There's no third party at the cross. There's just God. And so when we're saying that the the Godhead doesn't rupture, there's not only is God in are we saying that there's Well, there's there's obviously like what you just said there, but so when Jesus says, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Yeah in what in what sense is that true? Because I I think we would often cause because I would say I often hear people go the other way, mm-and and people would say like, yes, something does happen at the cross where Jesus is going, Father, where are you? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02But it's something happens to the Godhead at the cross.
SPEAKER_01You're saying it does, or are you saying it doesn't matter? That's what people are saying.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, are you saying that people are saying that something that God's own life is on the altar at the cross. Yeah. Um the father turns his face. Yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah, there's there's that. Um but that's not in the Bible. Yeah, absolutely. Um you've got to deal with God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself. You've got to deal with uh Hebrews 9, uh, where is it? So Hebrews 9, verse 14. Um, how much more then will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from accidentally to death? Here is the s at the cross we have the son perfectly offering himself up to the father. And it and there's no sense that that the father is turning his face away from this offering. But what what is it you know, he who knew no sin became sin for us. It's so fascinating that that that verse is just two sentences away from God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself. So the the anger that God is uh rightly feeling for the sin that Christ had become is not uh an anger that is disrupting the life of God or that is the opposite of his love. Because we all know that anger is not the opposite of love. If you really love someone, you might get angry about certain things. Um so it's not as though it's not as though the father was angry at the son who'd become sin, um, and therefore not loving of the son who'd become sin. I think that that that's at the heart of the mistake that people think because the wrath of God was being poured out on the cross and it was it was God's will to crush him, says Isaiah 53, that therefore um the Son, that therefore the Father was not loving his son at the same time.
SPEAKER_01I see. So if you again and if you've started off with a very Trinitarian thing about God being love, if we can see that the Father is still loving the Son even in the moment of death on the cross, then we can say, well, of course the Trinity isn't ruptured, the Godhead isn't ruptured. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And especially because John 10 17, you know, the reason my father loves me is that I lay down my life only to take it up again. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up. Um so internal to this love of God is is the obedience of the Son, who would even bow his head to that wrath. Um but the father is not stopping, he's not ceasing loving his son at the cross. In fact, you know you can't really say this, but you you can imagine like on what day of all creation would would the father ever be more proud of his son than on Good Friday, actually.
SPEAKER_01Sure. Um there's a there's a you know, Jesus Jesus came to lay down his life that in in in in doing that there is a there there's still this inherent also another another aspect, I suppose, there's an inherent oneness of he is doing the will of God. Right. You know, this is not he himself is not sinning, right? He is doing what he came for, he's doing what him and the father still have the same end in sight as they do these things.
SPEAKER_02Right, you know, right, which is what John Studd is saying. That the the the holiness and the will of God the Father is the same as the holiness and the will of God the Son. Um God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. So, yeah, we should we should never think that there was a rupture in the in the very being of God um at the cross. Um and and and therefore I I think it's uh it's a more um holistic and attractive view of of the atonement that that father and son are utterly united in this one work of making us uh one with the holy God. Um so we've been thinking about the f the four points of of uh an ordinary uh gospel presentation, like creation for redemption. And then in the four points gospel presentation, the fourth point is choice. You know, it's your choice what are you gonna do about this uh God who's come to redeem you. And I just think that's interesting, but um normally in the four points sort of uh of the gospel it's usually creation for um redemption and consummation at the end. But in a very popular gospel presentation, the final point puts you in the box seat, it's your choice uh what are you gonna do? But again, if if you framed everything as God is a taker, then you've got to choose to give to him. Um if you framed everything as God is eternally a giver, then you must receive him. There is something for you to do. You but you must receive him rather than you must give to him. Um that that is the choice that faces us all, if you want to frame it as a choice. Yeah. Um But then let's let's think about consummation, let's think about the end of the end of all things. Um how does how does the Trinity um shape what we're looking forward to when Christ returns? And uh I always kind of compare Islam and Christianity on on this matter, and and nobody has brought out that comparison more starkly than Jay Smith. If you don't know who Jay Smith is, just a phenomenal apologist uh to Muslims, um, has been sort of for decades, and uh would go to Speaker's Corner on on a Sunday when he was living in this country. I used to go with him in the in the early noughties, uh, and I would watch Jay Smith just with my jaw uh hanging loose, seeing how amazingly he took on all these uh Muslim apologists, and he was he was extraordinary. Um but he was doing this talk once about the consummation, about the end of all things. And um he usually does this double act where he has another Christian sort of with him standing up on these ladders, and uh and he would get his friends to look up a verse from the Quran and he'd say, you know, um, well, what does the Quran say about Muslim paradise? And his friend would look up in the Quran and he'd say, you know, it says here that uh there's gonna be rivers of wine in paradise.
SPEAKER_00And Jay Smith would say, Rivers of wine, fantastic! Holy electronic possibly won! Hollywood! What else is in Muslim paradise?
SPEAKER_02And then this guy next to him sort of looks up another verse from the Quran and he says, you know, you'll have your 72 virgins or whatever.
SPEAKER_00And Jay Smith says, Muslim paradise! And so they're gonna go with the looking up another thing, he says it's gonna be good time in the paradise.
SPEAKER_02You're gonna you're gonna like picture there's two hundred Muslims because we can up, and they're all heckling in.
SPEAKER_00But there was a point to all this. There's a point to it. And and then he said, Let me tell you one thing that's not in Muslim paradise. Your God's not there. Your God is not there.
SPEAKER_02And it's absolutely true. You know, in the Quran, in the Death, uh, paradise, you know, Allah is conspicuous by his absence from paradise. Because Islam begins with the creator creature distinction, and therefore he like he is so transcendent, he cannot appear to creatures in any creaturely form, and therefore the future, you know, believers go to this unearthly paradise, but but it's it's so unearthly, but it's also not godly because God can't even be in paradise. You know, he can't he can't even appear in his own future because God is just so other than the creation. He's definitionally the creator, and therefore definitionally on the wrong side of that divide. And so the future is not a creaturely future, and God cannot have anything to do with a creaturely future. Contrast that with the Bible, and you know, the Bible's all about restoration.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02All about Jesus raising up this world, and he's gonna bring the Father with him when he comes from heaven to make his home on earth. Um, and and because the Father-Son unity comes before the Creator Creature distinction, um, therefore, there can be a unity of heaven and earth. Heaven and earth are not, you know, uh there's no there's no great gulf eternally between heaven and earth. Then actually the heavens come to the earth, and the father is brought by the son to enjoy life on earth, you know? And so the consummation of all things um will be creaturely and godly, um, because God and creation are not torn apart. Um speaking of rich, uh the ninth no, the the eighth reason why we must be uh Trinitarian is to reach Muslims. Um you might not think that I want to reach Muslims um by doing the J. Smith voice. But I I totally wanna I totally want to reach Muslims, and and I was just read reading um uh Rebecca McLaughlin's great book, um Capturing uh Confronting Christianity, and she says, you know, the big question for the future demographically is not atheism or theism. Um the the big demographically, the big question is going to be Islam or Christianity. What's it gonna be? And and we need to be able to reach Muslims. And you know what? Probably the What are you doing? What are you doing, man?
SPEAKER_01I may have accidentally played a little bit of the uh live cast moody theme as I clicked on the wrong thing. Only a fraction of a second, keep people on the edge of their seats, you know. Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_02Um but yeah, if we're if we're looking to reach out, we're gonna look to reach out to Muslims more and more, and their big questions are not the same as jaded secular people questions. Sure. Yeah. It's gonna be about the Trinity, and we need to be able to uh give good answers to how are the Son how is the Son one with the Father and all that. Um then number nine, reaching secular people. Um there's a great argument to be made that to the degree that the church has neglected the doctrine of the Trinity and hasn't been preaching a triune God, that the world what the world has rejected has been a pretty sub-Trinitarian God. Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_01And you know, what is the God like that most people reject? Well exactly, you know, it's the uh like the head teacher, the Santa Claus in the sky, the old man in the sky kind of view, isn't it? You know, these are kind of people's views, aren't they? Yeah. Yeah. What is it, you your phrase? High on power, low on personality.
SPEAKER_02I'm glad you've you've learned how to apologetic well. Um and so, you know, one thing I'm always doing with people is comparing and contrasting Richard Dawkins' view of ultimate reality. He says, at bottom there is nothing but blind blind pitiless indifference. Um and then Deuteronomy 33, verse 27, underneath are the everlasting arms. Like, what is it? Underneath is it just dead rubble, or underneath are the are the everlasting arms, you know, with the Trinity. Here is a God that's that's worth believing in. Um and then finally, mission. It's it's very interesting that um uh theologically speaking, in the history of the church, the word mission um first uh first kind of referred to how the father sent the son. Missio is the Latin for for send. The father sends the son, the father sends the spirit. And actually, originally mission is God's thing. Originally, mission is the father sending the son, the father sending the spirit. And actually, the mission that we are on is being swept up in the missionary love of God, the sending love of God, who again is not a taker from the world, um, but he is a gracious giver, and we receive the sun, and then by the spirit gets swept up into his missionary activity out to the nations. Um there's there's a tenth reason why we should probably be Trinitarian overall.
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, I'm convinced. Yeah. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02Good. Let's go with that. Let's be let's be Trinitarian, shall we? And let's rejoice in good news. This Trinity Sunday, um, and let's resolve to preach a Trinitarian gospel that has Jesus at the centre, who is the Son of the Father, full of the Spirit. Um Brilliant. Well, we just we we mentioned in the middle of that that uh I'm working on a Jordan Peterson video. Can you pray for that? Um, because the potential is that on YouTube people fall down the YouTube hole on Jordan Peterson, and the potential is they find our videos on stuff. And and that has happened, and people have become Christians because of that. So um can you pray that that would happen with this video? Because I think it is the last word on Jordan Peterson.
SPEAKER_01I'm absolutely unproducer.
SPEAKER_02Great. That's good to know. Because we're all getting a little bit tired. It's been two years now, and uh, but yeah, no, do stay tuned. And if you're not subscribed to us on YouTube, can I please ask you to subscribe to us on YouTube? It really then helps our videos get seen on YouTube. And YouTube's kind of a big deal. Um 1.8 billion monthly users. Yeah. Um so it's a great mission field for us. If you're not already subscribed to us, um can you hit subscribe and hit the little bell that will um alert you to our new videos that that uh that come out. Uh do like us on Facebook and share it around.
SPEAKER_01Yep, absolutely. Yeah. Keep up to date with what we're doing and get all the resources as they come out.
SPEAKER_02Brilliant. Well, this will come out as a podcast on Friday, and uh and otherwise we will see you next week. And uh yeah, until then, like, share, and subscribe and keep speaking life. Cool, take care. Bye.