Hello and welcome back to the Speak Life podcast, episode 463. My name is Thomas Thorogood, Media Producer at Speak Life, and today Glenn Srivener is reacting to the news about Philip Schofield and Holly Willoughby and what this reveals about all of us. So I hope you find this episode helpful, and I will catch you at the end to share some correspondence that we've had in response to the previous episode, Glenn's interview with Constantine Kissett.
SPEAKER_02Hi, I'm Glenn from Speak Life. We like to see all things through the lens of Jesus. Now I'm a Christian, and I just want to share with you how I've tracked the Philip Schofield drama over the last three years. He came out in February 2020, and I was like, oh, okay. You've been married half your life to a woman and you have two daughters, but now you want to tell the world on live television that you are sexually attracted to men. Okay, I mean, obviously not exclusively attracted to men because you're married with two kids. So I guess you've been weighing up your sexual appetites and coming to a considered conclusion that you prefer guys, all things considered? And frankly, my first response is okay. I mean it's a bit TMI for a guy who's basically there to sit on a sofa, talk about half-term getaways, and ask Dr. Range about the dangers of Botox. Like, why is he talking about his sexual orientation? The time is 10 36, I'm gay, and here's Lucy with the weather. I mean, why? Why is a 60-year-old man telling us about the patterns of his sexual attractions? I'm not that interested. I don't think anyone should be that interested. And I say his sexual attractions make no difference to me because I'm a Christian. Because I'm a Christian, I do not discriminate against people based on their sexual attractions. I don't care who turns you on. God knows your sexual thoughts, I don't, I don't want to know, I'm not that interested, totally not important to me, except I'll wait. And I swear I'm not making this up. As I was watching Philip Schofield coming out, it dawned on me way too late that in addition to telling us he's gay, he thinks this means he has to leave the mother of his children so he can pursue his sexual appetites. And the whole nation applauded. That blew my mind. To me, that's like saying, I've noticed sexual attractions towards the male of the species, therefore I'm abandoning my wife of 27 years. I mean, what the what? Maybe you don't understand a Christian mindset, but that's how I think as a Christian. Like, it makes no sense to me because that's like waking up one day and realizing all my life I've been attracted to redheads with long curly hair glistening in the moonlight, playing the harp in a forest glade. And like, if that's who you discover yourself to be attracted to, I hope you realize that does not matter. You could call yourself a harposexual. I don't care. Don't abandon your wife. For better, for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, till death parts you. Those are vows that you made. That's what I care about. That's what every culture in the history of the world has cared about until about ten minutes ago, when we started to scour our wretched little hearts for authentic feelings to follow. And so three years ago on live television, Philip Schofield ditched his wife, forsook his vows, and now we know the nature of the relationship that he left his wife for. It seems beyond doubt that his coming out was to steal a march on revelations about his infidelity and the nature of it. But at the time, here's what was said. Philip Schofield coming out as gay after all these years is proof it's never too late to speak your truth and be true to yourself, so proud, how brave, how wonderful. And on and on it goes, about the bravery and the truth and the authenticity, while a man declares openly he is an adulterer and wants to pursue that more openly. And we celebrate it. Holly Willoughby, his co-presenter, says, I will be by your side forever.
SPEAKER_00And I'll be by your side forever. Thank you, my darling. So ever and ever.
SPEAKER_02A strikingly similar promise to one Schofield made to his wife. But of course, this story did not end with Schofield following his libido to universal acclaim, because at the same time, in fact, prior to 2020, anyone with a functioning internet connection could discover that Philip Schofield had a relationship with a runner on his show, someone younger than his daughters, who Schofield first met when the kid was a teenager, perhaps even a pre-teenager. Schofield got the lad a job on the TV show, and well, you can Google the rest. It's a really strange world we live in when this stuff is in the public domain, but it's not news because, well, there are different people in charge of the narrative, some for good reasons, like protecting the vulnerable, and some for less honorable reasons. So there's all this stuff out there for three years that isn't news until the newspapers report on it, but whatever, you can't escape the truth. The truth eventually catches up with all of us. And when it does, the narrative switches. It switches hard and it switches fast. Schofield goes from hero to zero very quickly. Because what we saw in the last week or so is the conflict between two dominant narratives in our culture. These two narratives are post-Christian narratives. They have developed from the soil of Christian convictions, but they have been divorced from the Christian story and altered significantly. One narrative is the one we saw when Schofield came out: expressive individualism and the celebration of sexual identity. That's huge in our culture. It's nearly the highest ideal. But the Philip Schofield saga shows we value something more highly than sexual self-expression. We also live by the oppressor-oppressed narrative. And if you're on the wrong side of that story, your allyship on LGBT issues will not save you. And listen, I am glad that something is restraining sexual self-expression. Please, may we not let libido run riot. I'm I'm relieved that our culture will draw a line somewhere when it comes to sexual ethics, because we all know how significant and how weighty sex really is. Of course, we pretend not to notice most of the time. Most of the time we say sex is a leisure activity which carries no moral freight whatsoever, and when it goes wrong, it is diabolically evil. That's the double speak we all live with. And as a Christian, I look on and say, well, which is it? Choose. Either sex is a recreational activity, or it is so significant that when it goes wrong, the scars last a lifetime. Which? Which is it? And I think we all know which it is, because when a leisure activity goes wrong, we give it a one-star review on TripAdvisor. When sex goes wrong, it is unconscionably wicked. Sex is significant, and when it is abused, when people are abused in the name of sexual self-expression, we recognize this as wrong, wrong with a capital W. And so, understandably, come the accusations of grooming. This is the story of a man in his fifties and a teenager. The story goes that they waited to have sex until the teenager was 18. But most people know that something as arbitrary as a calendar date does not suddenly remove the importance of power differentials. And we all recognize that while consent is absolutely vital to our sexual ethics, it is not the only sexual ethic, because there are always power differentials. And our choices are caught up with so many other factors. Some people don't seem to factor the power differentials into their equations. Like Darren Brown, who tweeted, I must be morally dim, I don't see why a TV presenter's intimate business should lead to public persecution. Makes me so uncomfortable having to ask friends why anything terrible has happened, why it warrants such shaming, and why it's supposed to be endlessly my business. For Darren Brown, the narrative that reigns supreme is expressive individualism, and what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home, etc. etc. There was, though, significant pushback against Darren Brown for this. Here's one of hundreds of quote tweets. The reason Schofield has gone from hero to zero is because, on balance, in our culture, power differentials are more important than sexual freedom. Interestingly, Philip Schofield, when considering the sexual crimes of his brother, called them despicable. His brother Timothy engaged in sexual activity with a 16-year-old while he was in his fifties. Philip engaged in sexual activity with an 18-year-old while he was in his fifties. Timothy was sentenced to twelve years in prison, and upon his guilty verdict, Philip said, As far as I am concerned, I no longer have a brother. Philip dropped his brother like a gun, and now the world has dropped Philip like a gun. He appeared on our TV screens a shadow of his former self, vaping, insisting that he's not a groomer, and saying that because of the social media pylon, he has considered suicide. Do you want me to die? Because that's where I am. I don't think that's an act. Some of how he's chosen to present himself to the world is certainly performative, but I think his despair is genuine. We have watched a man undone by himself and at the end of himself, he's been utterly nailed by the oppressor-oppressed narrative and cast as the oppressor. All he can do is show the world that he is on one level an oppressed victim. He's been hounded to near suicide by a mob. That's his desperate hope to get back on the right side of the oppressor-oppressed dynamic. That's the narrative that reigns supreme. And every culture has a narrative that reigns supreme. It assigns the goodies and the baddies, the winners and the losers. And as philosopher René Girard said, we naturally unite by identifying a scapegoat. We consider them to represent all that's wrong with the culture and we sacrifice them, expel them, cancel them. It's a violent storm of righteous anger that is only satisfied when the scapegoat is punished.
SPEAKER_01But then there's peace.uk forward slash give. Okay, back to the podcast.
SPEAKER_02And yesterday, Holly Willoughby, Philip's co-host on this morning, came back to deliver an after the storm speech.
SPEAKER_00Right, deep breath. Firstly, are you okay? I hope so.
SPEAKER_02Hear the message? There's been a shame frenzy, a storm. It's blown over, and here is Holly to bring good news of calm. She's dressed in white. Does that denote purity, victory? Perhaps that's overreading the situation. But now she wants us to know that life will go on without Schofield.
SPEAKER_00Feels very strange indeed, sitting here without Phil.
SPEAKER_02That's the first and last time she will use his name. From here on, Schofield will be him who must not be named.
SPEAKER_00Yumi and all of us at this morning gave our love and support to someone who was not telling the truth, who acted in a way that they themselves felt that they had to resign from ITV and step down from a career that they loved. That is a lot to process. And it's equally hard to see the toll that it's taken on their own mental health. I think what unites us all now is a desire to heal for the health and well-being of everyone. I hope that as we start this new chapter and get back to a place of warmth and magic that this show holds for all of us, we can find strength in each other.
SPEAKER_02They themselves, uh, that certain someone who must not be named has been condemned and expelled. The storm has passed, so Holly hopes, so this morning hopes, so ITV hopes, and now we can return to a place of warmth and magic. And surely nobody buys that. Everyone on my social media feed is dunking on Holly's message. Because we all know the storm never simply passes, the storm swirls on, the shame frenzy swirls on. We pass the poisoned chalice of condemnation around and try desperately not to be the person left holding it. Holly once said that she would always be by Philip's side. Philip once said he would always be by his wife's side, but Holly drops Phil, Phil drops his wife and his brother, and ends up condemned himself. The storm has claimed Philip, and it will claim someone else tomorrow and someone else the next day. Unless unless there is somewhere that the condemnation ends. That's what René Girard said. He said every culture has these dominant narratives that identify a scapegoat. They unify around condemning a scapegoat, they discharge their anger against a scapegoat, and then there's a short-lived peace until the next storm. Girard's philosophy was brilliantly summarized on Twitter by an account called Maple Cocaine. Each day on Twitter there is one main character, the goal is never be it. That's a brilliant summation of Rene Girard's scapegoat theory. But then Girard says, Christianity subverts the whole thing. In Christianity, you have Jesus Christ come down to be the scapegoat. Here is the innocent scapegoat. And he's not swept up in the storm of condemnation, he volunteers to be the victim for us. I was so struck that Philip Schofield just weeks ago said of his brother, as far as I'm concerned, I no longer have a brother. Timothy Schofield's sexual sins meant Philip Schofield dropped his brother, but in the Bible it says that Jesus Christ is not ashamed to be called our brother. He should be, given what we're like. But he's not ashamed to be called our brother. He, the innocent one, does not distance himself from us in our sin and shame. He draws near and he takes the condemnation himself because that's what love does. Even to undeserving sinners, love says, I am with you for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, through fame or shame, till death and beyond. Here is covenant love. And that's that's the final thing I'll say. Covenant is a massive theme in the Bible. It's an unconditional love union that says, I will be with you, I will be for you, no matter what. Marriage is a covenant union. It's a no matter what kind of love. And Christ comes offering covenant love even for Philip Schofields, even for Timothy Schofields, even for Holly Willoughby, even for Glenn Scrivenus, and Lord knows I need it. Here is the way out of the shame storms because Jesus unmasks the whole sorry business. He unmasks us as unrighteous mobs, happy to scapegoat anyone except ourselves. And he offers us the kind of forgiveness that brings true peace. Not just the exhaustion that comes after the shame frenzy, actual peace, actual mercy, actual love. And in the context of covenant, the Christian sexual ethic makes sense. Yes, sex is significant and powerful and beautiful, and its context is covenant love. Not simply the context of consent, but the context of covenant. Covenant makes sense of a healthier sexual ethic, and it makes sense of the oppressor-oppressed narrative. Of course, our culture resonates with the oppressor-oppressed story because it has been shaped by the Christian story. The story in which our Lord, in covenant love, stooped to become a victim so as to raise us from the ashes and seat us with princes. For two millennia we've contemplated that story, so of course we resonate with an ethic that says power should be used not to dominate but to serve. We're incredibly sensitive to power differentials and the potential for those to become toxic. But if we divorce that story from Christ's love story, all we have is power. And as one after another oppressor is identified and swept away in the shame storms, who will be left and who gets to say? Or we could return to Jesus who says, I am not ashamed to be called your brother. He takes the blame and gives us his covenant love. If you ask me, that's the story to live your life by. That's the story to build a society around. Not ultimately the sexual self-expression story, not ultimately the oppressor-oppressed story. Come home to Christ's covenant love story. I'd love to hear what you think in the comments. Do give this video a like and make sure you're subscribed to the channel. God bless you and see you next time on the Speak Life channel.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well, I mentioned that we're gonna start airing some of your comments and reflections on the Speak Life podcast. So if you have any thoughts about this episode or previous episodes, any comments or encouragements or questions or disagreements, feel free to send them to info at speaklife.org.uk and we will try and read some of them out on the show. So I have some YouTube comments in response to Glenn's interview with Constantine Kissin. So this came out on our YouTube channel last week and it's also available via the Speak Life podcast. Can we have Western values without Christianity? Well, Constantine himself commented on the video and said, Thanks for having me, Glenn. And Glen replied, Absolute pleasure. Thanks for coming. So there we go, isn't isn't that nice? What else do we have? Alvaro Domenic said, Two regular guys not necessarily agreeing with each other, having an agreeable conversation. Isn't that nice for a change? Muscle flex emoji. Thank you very much, Alvaro. Ian Anderson Grey said, This is the interview I've been wanting to happen for ages. Really enjoyed it. I hope KK and FF, that's Constantine Kissin and Francis Foster, can have you on trigonometry soon. Nick said, I love finding new people. I am as atheist as you can get, but I'm now subbed and loved the video. Well, thank you very much, Nick. Uh we're we're certainly wanting to do more videos on this topic, so great to have you with us. There was a bit of pushback though, Granny Greensock said, I am not convinced that equality is not empirically based. Things tend to level up on a physical level. Living beings have an innate urge to establish equality. I am thinking of my children when they were probably around age four and two, and they each had a giant balloon on a string. The wind caught my son's balloon and carried it away, which upset him. My son immediately turned to his younger sister and urged her to let go of her balloon. He wanted things to be evened up or down. Also, I'm thinking of the experiment where one monkey in a cage is given a reward of lower value for the same work than the reward it observes being given to the monkey in the other cage. Suddenly what seemed adequate no longer appears so, and the disadvantaged monkey becomes agitated. There is no religious prompting involved here either. Yeah, thanks for that comment. That's an interesting one. I hadn't heard about the experiment with the the monkeys. I think the equality that Glenn and Constantine were talking about in the interview was more do humans have intrinsic value? And so, regardless of how much work a person does, uh, regardless of a person's background, you know, whether someone's contributed a ton to society or very little to society, do all human beings have an intrinsic value, which means they are worthy of dignity and protection? Um, and of course, as Christians, we would say yes. And interestingly, that's a point that Constantine makes in the conversation, isn't it? Uh he talks about equality being a very difficult word to define in our culture at the moment. We we're kind of all talking about equality, but we're sometimes not talking about the same thing. Well, there we go, just a few of the comments there. There are so many more um and across all our platforms. But I think this is going to become uh a weekly thing on the Speak Life podcast uh that we'll uh share some of the feedback that we've been getting for past episodes. So if you have any comments on this episode, uh Glen's reaction to the news about Philip Schofield and Holly Willoughby, if you have any thoughts, questions, disagreements about that, feel free to email them to info at speaklife.org.uk and we'll try and read some of those out on the show. Well, thanks so much for listening, everyone. We will be back next week for another episode of the Speak Life Podcast. God bless.