Welcome to the Speak Live podcast. Glenn Scrivener here. Paul Feesey is on holidays at the moment. He's with his family in America. Hope he's having a fantastic time there. I'm here in Eastbourne in the upper room of a church that's hosting us very kindly while our offices are being refurbished. Basically, uh workmen right now are taking a sledgehammer to most of the building and they are creating some excellent studio space for us. So that when you next see us uh in our proper live location, uh you will see the fruit of a couple of months of work really. And it's gonna be very exciting. We're gonna have state of the art studio space, we're gonna have office space, we're gonna have learning space, we are getting ready for the Speak Life Foundry. Have you heard of the Speak Life Foundry? It's our internship program that is starting this September, and we're taking on interns from around the country, and we've had applications from around the world, and it's a very exciting prospect. People can come to us, we study together, we go on mission together, and we produce resources together that bless the church and reach the world. Uh, if you can give up uh ten months and come to Eastbourne, uh we would love to get together with you and uh let's let's think about how we might reach uh both the offline world and the online world for Jesus. Uh go to speaklifefoundry.com, speaklifefoundry.com, and you'll find out more about our internship and about how to apply there. Well, it's Tuesday of Holy Week as I record this, and uh uh we've just had the news that uh Notre Dame has uh had the great fire uh that has really united the world in grief. Amazing uh to see uh all sorts of people with all sorts of beliefs um really struck by this iconic building going up in flames, and uh many people that I follow online are atheists and humanists, and yet they've gone out of the way to say uh this is uh a tragedy for us all because it's a great cultural icon. Um but it is more than that, uh in in a sense, isn't it? I mean, if the Louvre burnt to the ground this week, um in in one sense some of the artwork there would be more irreplaceable. Obviously, if the Mona Lisa uh was lost to a fire, that's utterly irreplaceable in in the way that uh an altar piece at uh Notre Dame is not. In another sense, uh it is Notre Dame that is more irreplaceable in that it tells a story of resurrection, in that it tells a story of through the fires of affliction, uh there is hope. Through death there is resurrection, through Good Friday, there is Easter Sunday. And uh already people are making links to uh Coventry Cathedral, for instance, um, bombed out during the war, and yet there was a cathedral rebuilt on the ruins of that old cathedral, and and the sign resurgam uh over the top of those ruins. Um many churches that have burnt down or been bombed out uh often will put a sign over the rubble saying resurgam. It's Latin for I will rise up. I will rise up again. There will be resurrection from the ruins. And uh Coventry Cathedral, uh when it was uh completed again after the war, uh had a a big sign on it saying To the glory of God it was burnt, and to the glory of God it was raised up again. So that's a very profound thing to think about, isn't it, in Holy Week? As we approach Easter, to the glory of God it was burnt. And to the glory of God it was raised up. Isn't that interesting? Uh that glory involves not just the building up of something, brick upon brick, ascending ever higher, but actually perhaps the glory of God includes a tearing down first, that it includes first destruction and then resurrection. Well, that's what we're thinking about uh this Easter. I'm not gonna uh spend too much uh time uh talking to you at the top of this show because I want to make way for just a phenomenal uh uh interview that uh I was privileged to be able to just listen in on as I spoke to Amy and Ryan Green. They are the designers of uh award-winning game, uh Dragon Cancer, which is more than a computer game. Uh it is a memorial to their uh third son Joel, who died aged five after uh battling that dragon of brain cancer for uh four years, really. And uh they started work on the uh on the game while Joel uh while while Joel was uh still alive, and they had great hope for his healing uh for some kind of miracle, and yet Joel died uh in the middle of the production of this game. That in itself obviously is that life-shattering, life-altering uh event in their lives, and they decided to continue making the game, and yet the game that they made could never be like any other game. In every other game, you have a chance against the dragon. In every other game, you can beat the big bad boss. If you are only uh strong enough, if you're only uh dexterous enough, if you are only committed enough, uh then eventually you will beat the big bad boss. You will slay the dragon, uh, you will get the power-ups, you'll ascend through the levels, and you'll win. But that dragon cancer is not a winnable game. There are many things you can do in the computer game, that Dragon Cancer. One thing you cannot do is you cannot save Joel. And uh if you've ever played the game, you will know it is the most devastating computer game that's ever been made, the most moving computer game that's ever been made. It immerses you in a world in which you can do many things, but you cannot defeat the dragon. And instead, what you need to do is you need to love Joel and be with him through the Valley of the Shadow and out again into this incredible final level, because there is a final level to the game. Ryan and Amy Green are Christians. They believe in Easter. They believe that to the glory of God there is a destruction, and to the glory of God there is something that uh that goes beyond that into resurrection hope. And so they have this final level. It is the most moving thing you've ever experienced. After Joel dies in the game, uh the the computer game s just just blinks with loading, loading, loading. And then you find yourself on a boat crossing over to the other side, and there you see Joel again, and he is happy, he is released, he is feasting on his favorite food, pancakes, and and you can blow bubbles to him, it's his favorite thing in the world. Uh and what's astonishing, and and you'll you'll hear this in the interview, is is I I say to Amy and Joel uh Amy and Ryan, is it common that you pr you cry more in the resurrection scene than you did in the death scene? And uh it it seems like that's a pretty common experience that as people go through this computer game, they get to the final scene, they see Joel again, and they're they are more in floods of tears than when the doctor gave the terminal diagnosis. And I think that that's really got me thinking at Easter, that actually, you know, think of think of Mary at the tomb of Jesus, and and and to begin with, she's trying to hold it together. Where have you laid him? Where have you laid my rabbi? And uh and of course Jesus engages her in conversation. She doesn't really know that it's Jesus yet, but in in John chapter 20, uh he just speaks her name, Mary, and she says, Rebonai. And there's that beautiful moment. You can just you can just imagine that at the speaking of her name, when she realizes that he's alive again, that's when the floods of tears come. You know, but before that, we are just helpless in the face of death. You know, we're we're trying to hold it together. But actually, resurrection gives us a a hope that allows us to cry, one of those good cathartic cries. And uh Amy and Ryan sort of say, you know, they they expect that there'll be some good old crying in heaven, and and it really makes me read those verses in a different way, you know, that God will wipe away every tear from our eyes. Um not so much the complete abolition of crying, because there is a good crying. There's the sort of crying that happens when you go through the valley of the shadow of death and you come out the other side, and you see that everything sad becomes untrue. You see that through the fires there is resurgambif through through through death comes resurrection. So I I hope that this uh interview with uh Amy and Ryan really blesses you. They have such wisdom, such incredible wisdom. Um and uh yeah, they they speak profoundly because they have been to the depths. And I just uh trust that this uh interview with them will do your soul much good, and uh that this Easter, as you think through again what it means for Christ to go down to the cross and what it means for him to rise up to resurrection, that uh you will help them, uh you you will you will allow them to help you to really understand that Easter journey. So, without any further ado, this is my interview with Amy and Ryan Green.
SPEAKER_02We work with Numinous Games, which is uh a studio that we that we founded with Josh Larson about seven years ago.
SPEAKER_04Amazing, amazing. And you, together with Josh and Numinous Games, you made That Dragon Cancer, uh, which has won many awards. And uh I know lots of people have uh called it not just a game, but also a memorial. So for those who don't know the game, can you tell us who is the game memorializing?
SPEAKER_02Sure. So our son, um, Joel Green, he was our third son, and he was diagnosed with a brain tumor when he was a year old. And just before he turned two, we learned that his tumor um was terminal. His tumor came back, they'd already done the most intense treatments they could, and they didn't really have any other options to offer us. So at the time, they gave him maybe four months to live, but we actually saw him respond to palliative treatments better than we expected, and we ended up having a lot of extra time with him. It gave us time to kind of think about how we could share his story with other people and how we could talk about um what it is to care for a terminal child, and with that extra time we started to think about, you know, maybe sharing the story of Joel in a video game.
SPEAKER_00So Amy and I are creative people, and this is the way we express the things that we're going through.
SPEAKER_04Right. And when you started work on the game, where did you think the game was going to end up?
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, the reason we decided to create a video game was actually based on an experience that I had with Joel um shortly after his terminal diagnosis, uh, where uh I was in the hospital with him and he was in a lot of discomfort and a lot of pain, and he had been crying uh relentlessly the whole night. Um and no matter what I did, no, you know, all those tricks that fathers learn to do, no matter what I tried, nothing would bring him comfort. Um and it was one of those moments where I was at the end of myself um and uh desperate and weeping and crying and wanting to help him. Um and in that moment of of prayer, I I I we we found respite. You know, Joel stopped crying and um and he slept peacefully. And it was one of those few moments in my life where I've kind of felt directly seen by God. Um, and that was a moment that I wanted to share with people. Because while we were in the midst of something so devastating, something that we couldn't control, uh, there were those moments of grace uh that we wanted to share.
SPEAKER_02And when we started developing the video game, we had seen a lot of these moments where it felt like God was answering our prayers, where Joel was responding in miraculous ways. And we thought as we started creating this video game that we were going to be sharing with the world a testimony of a miraculous healing, and this was our way of sharing that story. Um, we thought we were we were living something that seemed almost unbelievable to us, and it's it's really hard to describe that to people now because now everyone knows that that Joel didn't live, but we thought he would. We had seen so many little miracles along the way that we thought we were telling the story of a miracle.
SPEAKER_00Right. And so it was kind of like journalists of our own life, we were thinking, what are the ways that we can use the creative tools that we have to live our story out in front of in front of the world in those ways, because ultimately, you know, what we hope to testify to is the faithfulness of God.
SPEAKER_04And you came up with the name That Dragon Cancer. Where did that name come from? Go ahead.
SPEAKER_02Uh well, the first time that we were told that Joel was probably about to die, this happened a few different times, he'd have these recurrences. Um, but the first time we were told that Joel was about to die, um, my dad on a phone conversation with me told me, I think what would be really important is if you could let your other sons know, if they could understand that Joel fought very hard and that God was so proud of him, and that if he does die, that that he earned his rest and that God was so, so pleased with him and how he fought. And I struggled with how to talk about these concepts with my kids because they were five and three at the time, they were itty-bitty. Um, and they knew we were praying for Joel and we were wanting to teach them about faith, but part of that was also teaching them about the potential loss that we were facing. And so to put it in their terms and to not give them more information before they needed it, I decided to start telling them this bedtime story of Joel, the brave baby knight fighting this dragon called cancer. And so every night we could tell a little more of the story and we could kind of paint a picture for them of what was at stake without having to get to the end before we were ready to get to the end of the story.
SPEAKER_00And the dragons, the the dragon's a really interesting uh character in scripture, um, particularly in Revelation when it talks about that great red dragon and how uh he kind of declared war against the woman and and her children. Um and that picture was just the sense that we felt um, you know, that that cancer is something that comes against us and our children. Um and that, you know, great accuser also comes after us. And um, and so in that we found that uh the the symbolism of that um spoke to like the struggle of our faith at kind of all levels.
SPEAKER_04So it's quite a scriptural symbol, that that dragon, but but also I guess in computer games, there's that concept of like the boss, the boss at the end of the level that you need to get past to get victory. Um and so that there's really interesting synergy with with that. Um tell tell us, um, as like game developers, tell us how how do ordinary games work? On on what sort of priorities and principles um does your average game kind of work?
SPEAKER_02I think most people would say that the very best thing about a video game is that you are in control of it. Like you have agency. If you fight well, then you'll perform well. And the more you practice, the better you get, and that there's a way to overcome every obstacle. It's designed in such a way that um you have a goal to achieve and there's obstacles in your way. And hopefully, if it's designed well, those obstacles are just a little more challenging than you can quite manage at first. And you're eventually able to overcome them either as you practice and get better or as you achieve some kind of like power-up or special bonus. Um, so that each little challenge along the way to this ultimate goal is something that has to be overcome. It's not too easy to overcome, it's not too hard to overcome, but it's designed so that you, as you make choices and as you practice and get better, are able to like slowly lead the game.
SPEAKER_00I I think uh video games are a conversation between the designer and the player, where the designer is trying to tell the player something, and they do that through giving them little bits of information uh a little bit on a time uh at a time that builds on each other. Um and so once you establish that vocabulary, that language between the designer and the player, then there's this invitation to to play, right? To challenge, to uh to learning and to mastering. Um, and at every step of that way, there's an opportunity for the designer to be telling the player something and for the player to be telling the designer something.
SPEAKER_04So you've mentioned words like mastery and control, uh agency, but I guess as you were going through treatments with Joel, that was probably the opposite of what you're experiencing: mastery, control, agency.
SPEAKER_02I remember Ryan telling me about this night he had in the hospital with Joel where nothing he did was working. And that night he even called me and he was like, You have to come here, like find someone to watch our other kids. You have to just come be here with me because this is so hard and I don't know what to do, and I don't feel like anyone can help me. And um I was, you know, making those arrangements to try to have someone come over and stay with our kids so I could go to him. And then he called back and said, It's okay. I I prayed and and I just felt like I was supposed to thank God for everything he'd done so far. And when I was done praying, Joel slept finally and and he felt better and I didn't need to come. But later, as he would talk to me about what that night felt like, he said it felt like playing a video game where all the mechanics were broken. Um and so that concept really stuck with him and was something that he kind of believed in this idea of like sometimes there are moments in our life that we think should work a certain way. As a dad, you have all the tricks, right? Like you bounce the baby or you sing to the baby, or you know, you would just have these things in your tool belt that you pull out and they usually work. And so what do we do when they don't work? Because I think we all have those moments in life where things don't work the way they always have, um, where we feel like we have no agency and no control. And certainly that's what fighting cancer feels like once you've been at it for a while. I think right at the beginning, um, you do the thing that new parents do at the beginning of being parents, where you think, I'll make all the right choices. And if I just make all the right choices, this is going to be okay. Um, and so when you're fighting cancer, you think the same thing. We'll make all the right treatment choices, we'll do everything just right, we'll follow the doctor's instructions, everything will be okay if we do this right. And then I think you gradually get into a place where you realize that actually the outcome has very little to do with you. And most of the choices you make um aren't very meaningful choices. And so that was just it was a wrestle to be able to kind of rest in that place of going, I don't get to control this, and all I want to do is fix it, and I'm not able to.
SPEAKER_04And so how personally do you do you cope with that? How how personally do you do you cope with the uncertainty and seeing the you know a a loved one just so helpless themselves? I mean what what resources did you have to get through those years?
SPEAKER_00Oh I don't know, what were the what were the resources that we had to get through those years? I I feel like I feel like in many ways that hope of deliverance kind of anchored us, you know, in in all the things that we were being tossed into to and fro and that hope that that he would be delivered, that or that hope of heaven um is the thing that you know is the beacon, right? It's the lighthouse, it's it's the thing that that you look to and you know all the waves are just overwhelming. Um and I think in in that that was that was the that was the waypoint for us, I suppose.
SPEAKER_02I do think that we um we grew in our faith a lot that year because um I think faith gives you a picture for grace that extends beyond circumstances that are too big for you, circumstances that are overwhelming. And that's where we found ourselves was in a situation that that did feel too big and too hard and too scary. Um but we had faith that there was a loving God who cared for us and who was was taking care of us and who was in this with us and was walking alongside us and alongside Joel. And so I it's certainly I think the biggest thing we turned to, along with, of course, the support of our friends and our family and our church. Um and I think what we found is that those years when Joel were sick were not nearly as sad and desperate and scary as we expected them to be. There was a lot of hope and a lot of joy, and um, you start to get a picture of the preciousness of life that we simply didn't have before that. Um everything Joel did was amazing to us because it wasn't a guarantee that he would do it, um, wasn't a guarantee that he would walk. So when he did, it was incredible. Um, any little words he said um were amazing to us, even though he never had more than a few words. He he never even achieved things that his brothers achieved, but even his tiny achievements were so important to us.
SPEAKER_00We got to make it our occupation to care for Joel and to talk about him and to talk about all the things. That we were learning in that process. And so I think in many ways, during Joel's illness, like that gave us purpose. In a situation where we didn't have any control, it was the one thing that we could do. And so I think I I clung to that a lot. And um just that aspect of being able to tell tell his story well.
SPEAKER_04And that's what's so beautiful about playing the game. Not only there are those moments of of joy when you can be with Joel and you know racing down the corridor of the hospital and that and that sort of thing, and th those moments, but but also yeah, you invite us in to love him and to be with him through that. And it's just yeah, absolutely yeah, such a beautiful, such a beautiful testimony you've you've uh created there. Um tell me, I mean, this is this is uh a ridiculously um impossible question, but if someone looks on and they're from the outside of the faith and they they can't understand why you would still believe in a good God uh when you have to walk through this kind of valley. What would you what you what would you say to that?
SPEAKER_00I don't have a good answer. I don't have a I don't have a good answer for why God allows children to get cancer and die. I don't I I look at creation and I see uh I see a creation at the mercy of death, you know, at all levels. Um and so I think regardless of how we feel about God, we can look around creation and see the state it's in. Um and so what I look for in the midst of such suffering is where are those where are those beacons, right? Like where is that point of light that we follow? Where is um where else would we go? You know, and and I and I see in uh the example of Jesus, um in the teachings of Jesus um life and and the hope of life. And so in that regard, that's that's what keeps me walking that direction um in the midst of all of this.
SPEAKER_02I mean it's certainly something I mean it's the it's the question that everyone asks, right? Like, how could a good God allow these terrible things? And after Joel died, it's the question I asked myself because I felt like he was encouraging us to have faith and to believe for Joel's healing. And so then when Joel died after years of miracles, I felt like the rug was pulled out from under me. And I felt like I don't even know God. And how do I even know if God is good and if God loves me but would let my child die, then how can I say that he's good? And and who is this God? And I had to really wrestle with that and ask a lot of hard questions. But I will say that in asking those hard questions, I really felt like God was in the suffering with me and that he gave me answers to some of my questions and that he showed me things and shifted my perspective a little bit. Um, but one of those things that that shifted the most as I contemplated this like, what do we do with a God who is love but who allows really hard things? Um, is that I shifted my perspective a little bit on suffering. Suffering felt really unfair to me when it was my child who died. I felt like that suffering wasn't fair and I shouldn't have to suffer. And I guess what I gradually started to see is that suffering is common. It's the common experience of man that you can't buy your way out of suffering. You cannot be popular enough or famous enough or rich enough to prevent suffering. Everyone suffers. It's the thing that unites us to each other, and it's also the thing that creates compassion in us for each other. That I love people better because I understand suffering in a way that I didn't before. Um, when I felt like my faith could make me immune to suffering, like maybe I could always count on God to get me out of suffering. I didn't have as much compassion for people who were suffering. But once I had really experienced the depth of the brokenheartedness of losing a child, um, when other people experience suffering, it doesn't feel like this distant, far-off thing that can never happen to me. It feels like, oh, this is this is common. This suffering is the common experience of man. And I guess what I see in Jesus is someone who entered into suffering with us. So Jesus was called the man of all suffering and his example to us as he lived was that he he took on pain, he took on accusation, people lied about him, and he did his best to love people and to suffer for them and to take on the greatest burden of suffering for us and to alleviate some of our suffering. But I just take a lot of comfort in the fact that he has felt what I feel, that he has felt suffering, and that I mean, even on the cross, he he cried out, God, why have you forsaken me? Well, after my son died, I I felt forsaken, and I have comfort in knowing that Jesus has felt forsaken by God, that it's okay if I feel forsaken and angry, because it sure seemed like Jesus felt that same thing. Um, and so I think that suffering is a is a thing that unifies us in a way that I didn't see before I experienced it. And so, could a good God let me experience suffering so that I knew how to love people better and more fully and with greater compassion? I think he could.
SPEAKER_00I think there's a tendency in our Christian culture, at least where we are in the States, um, to equate righteousness and goodness um with wealth and health and everything else. And I don't think many of us would outright say it, but there is kind of this overarching feeling, right? That if something bad happens, we're looking for the reasons that it must happen. Um and we're looking either for uh we're looking for the scapegoat, right? Because once we have a scapegoat, we can like send it out with all of our with all of our suffering and all of all of our sin. Um and and so in that regard, um I no longer am interested in finding out like why things happen. Um because there's no easy answer. Um it's it's really complex. And I'm more interested in how we treat each other in the midst of suffering. Um and I think that that has been probably the biggest theological shift for me. Um is is that shift in perspective.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And it's so beautifully mirrored in the game where you can make a lot of choices and you can you can do a lot of things and you can care for Joel along the way, but you you can't alter the ending. Um this is the path that you must tread. Um this is uh horrible to ask you, but is there is there any way you can put words to what it's like when your son dies? Like that that moment in the game, the you know, the lights go out and it feels like the the kind of the cathedral ceiling is about to fall on you, it's it lands on you with a weight, but but that's just us playing a game. What's what's it like in real life?
SPEAKER_00That um the last scene, or the second to last scene in the game, uh, in the cathedral, where you enter this cathedral that is being built. It's like in the process of being built. It's a good cathedral, and there's a stained glass picture of me and Joel uh that's in the process of being built. And you know, there's this these edifices that we create for the glory of God, and um and in the midst of that, you hear the prayers of of us as we're as we're on the last night of Joel's life. And those prayers that you're hearing were actually um declared in our home on the night of Joel's death.
SPEAKER_02Lord, rise up!
SPEAKER_05I will not let you go unless you bless him. I will not let you go unless you bless him.
SPEAKER_02I will not let you go unless you bless him.
SPEAKER_00Um and so in that you hear um you hear the mix of pain and you hear the mix of um a faithful declaration and and being so full of faith and so sure that God is going to redeem, and you hear um uh the cries for help. Um, and then in the midst of that, I think that there was a mix for us of expectation, so much expectation and so much disappointment. Um but there was also a peace because we knew, you know, like we knew where Joel was at, and and we knew um what was going to happen, and and there was a peace in that. Um and so that's the thing, like regardless of of the outcome, you know, whether we thought he was going to live and be healed ultimately or to die, there was a peace in um in just being able to pour ourselves out um and all of that. And I still don't have a good answer for how it feels. I I feel betrayed in many ways, you know. I feel like um that God didn't show up for us in so many ways. However, um what I do see in the midst of re recovering from Joel's death and in mourning Joel's death is um is a change in our hearts, you know. Like we've been transformed through suffering. Um and I think ultimately if we hold on to our hope that we'll see Joel again uh in heaven and have that pancake party and see all the dogs that he's assembled, like I like to I like to think of those things. I don't know what heaven is gonna be like, you know, it's probably nothing even close to what we're imagining. Yeah, exactly. Pancakes, yeah. So um, so yeah, we don't know. And all we can do is hope for and and be ready in a posture, you know, to be ready for whatever comes.
SPEAKER_02Um there were definitely conflicting emotions because we had this expectation that God was gonna heal Joel, and I'd been praying for years that he would just do it in the way that was the most glorious. And so the worse Joel got, the more I thought, oh wow, like there's this documentary crew that's filming us as we make this video game, and everyone can see firsthand that Joel's dying and that he's not getting better. And so this moment, like on his deathbed, this would be the most glorious. And so oddly, like the worst Joel was doing, the greater our expectation was building. And so um, there were a few things going on when Joel actually died. Um, the first was that there was still this like hope that that maybe even moments after he died, then God would raise him from the dead, fully healed. You know, like there was something in me that was still waiting, that still had hope, that was still holding on. But the other side of this was that Joel, most of his life, despite the fact that four out of his five years, he was fighting cancer and going through horrible treatments and really hard things were happening to him. Most of his life, he was a happy, carefree, delightful, joyful boy that didn't know he was sick because he was delayed developmentally. He didn't even know that he was sick. But in those last few weeks, he was not himself. He was he was suffering. He um stopped walking and talking and swallowing, and his breathing got labored. And that last night he hated having the oxygen cannula in his nose, that he slept a lot, but when he woke up, he was trying to pull the oxygen off. He hated it. And so there was a piece of me when he took his last breath that felt a little bit relieved for him, um, which is a hard thing to feel. But you knew I knew that he couldn't go on like he was. I had this hope that he would be healed and be able to go on with us, like restored and able to finally really live life as the happy little boy I wanted him to be. But I knew that there was no way to continue forward on the path he was on. That he, we had already lost so much of who he was and he was struggling. Um, and so there was relief that the suffering was done for him, and then great sorrow that we didn't get the miracle we wanted, that we didn't get to enjoy seeing him healed and alive and well. Um, and there's hope that he's in heaven and healed and well and living the life he never got to live here on earth, that that he was able to develop and fully have that life, but then there's a lot of sorrow that I don't get to see him have the life I wanted him to have.
SPEAKER_04At what stage was the game at this point? And and was your thought to to mothball the game and and put it on the shelf at this point, or what did you think?
SPEAKER_00Um when Joel died, we were about a year into development of the game, and the game ended up taking about three years to create. Um and honestly, when Joel died, um Honestly, when Joel died, it was the only thing I could imagine myself doing. Um I think had I not had that to work on, I would have completely shut down. Um, and so this gave a a purpose in that suffering, um, to honor him and memorialize him well. Um and in that process of um of doing that, like we had to go outside of ourselves as well. Um and and we had to ask for help because we did need to raise more funds to be able to keep going. Um and one of the things that happened is we did a Kickstarter, and part of that process was inviting people in to offer the stories of people that they'd lost. Um, and it was amazing to me.
SPEAKER_01Sorry, there's a train here.
SPEAKER_00Um It was amazing to me how people responded because not only did they trust us when we weren't done telling the story, um, and knowing who we are and what we profess, that they were willing to both give their money as well as um trust us with the memorial of their family members. And so we had numerous cards of people giving messages to sending messages to the people that they love. Um we had artwork that was a mixture of art that um some um sick children had created, as well as uh pictures of of grandparents or fathers or mothers that they had lost, um, as well as letters uh to other people that have gone on this journey, as well as um, and I think most significant to me the footprints of the children that they'd lost. Um and it was such a it's such a treasure to me that they got to add their voice to the thing that we created. Um, and so ultimately this is an expression not just of Joel, not just a memorial of Joel, but to everybody who um has had to endure this kind of loss.
SPEAKER_04So the ending, the the picnic at the end of the world, um, the pancake party blowing bubbles at Joel was uh was that always going to be the ending? When when did that kind of occur to you as as the perfect ending? Because it is.
SPEAKER_02Um, you know, I think we struggled for a while with how to end the video game. It was a conversation and a discussion of, you know, we thought we might go back to, we call it the park at the end of the world. Um, we thought we might go back to that park, but uh we expected that maybe it would be Ryan and I going to the park. And um I think from the beginning, Ryan knew that he wanted there to be some picture of communion there. The game starts with with a loaf of bread and with a box of juice that for us is this picture of communion. And he knew that when he came back that he wanted there also to be this moment of communion. So we had some of these thoughts, um, but we weren't exactly sure how it would play out. But I remember one of the boys, I feel like it was Caleb, was telling me that he thought it might be nice at the end if you could just blow bubbles for Joel. And so we started to think about that picture. And throughout the video game, there's a mechanic that that repeats where um you have to give in to rest to move on. That there's this impulse to like to make the right choice or fix it or do better or continue or fight. Um, but before you can move on, you just kind of have to rest and you have to kind of give up in order to move forward. And the game ends that way too. That if you wanted to blow bubbles for Joel, you could blow bubbles for Joel forever. But eventually you have to stop. Because in life you have to stop. And that was true that there were moments when Joel wasn't doing well and he didn't want to play and he he wasn't happy. And I thought, oh, if he could just like, if he just felt good, I would just, I would blow bubbles for him forever. I wouldn't stop, but then he gets better and he does a little better and now we blow bubbles a little and then he wants to keep going, but you want to move on. And so those things happen. I could tell you now, because he's not here, that oh, if he were here, I would never, I would never shift my focus. But but that's not true. Like if he came back eventually, I I still would shift my focus because we're limited by time in that way. And and so there is this moment at the end of having to, even in this last picture of Joel in heaven, having to to let go and rest in that moment and having to to kind of give up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the the picture at the end of the game is ultimately a picture of Sabbath, right? Of like the ultimate Sabbath, right? Like Jesus asks us to abide in him, um, and to s to strive, to work hard to enter his rest. Um, and so in that way, a lot of what this experience taught me is that I can flail and strive and and struggle and ask the wise and all of those different things, which are all good and they're all part of the being human. But ultimately, you know, um I see it as a posture um instead. And in that posture, there's this striving to enter the rest that he's provided for us because the rest was created for us. Um and it's the invitation. So, you know, uh, and Amy talks about a picture of communion at the end. Um I did feel like I was trying to embed this picture of um of being present with Jesus in his body, right? And and in that abiding with him, and ultimately that hope that we have that when all of this is said and done, when we've been perfected through all of this suffering, that ultimately our rest is in him and we get to spend time with him.
SPEAKER_04It's so interesting that you call it uh a sadness at the end, because um every time I go through the cave and get to that bit, I cry more than I have at any other moment. And I wonder, is is that what people commonly say? So they do they feed that back to you that you you're in floods when you see him again in in in a way that you've kind of you've I guess you've been holding back until that moment, but amazingly, you cross on over to the other side and you see him again. And it's it's really it's I've been thinking about it for the last three years, you know, when when God promises to wipe away every tear, and you think, Will there be tears in heaven? And I think your your game helps Smith realize, yeah. Maybe he maybe but maybe really deep, healing kinds of tears. It's am I the only one who feels this about about the ending?
SPEAKER_00I remember when we were building the scene, um we were putting all the sounds in and all the animations in and everything, and I remember going into the scene and walking up the path to the park and walking up to the park, and and Joel saying in the scene, Hey, I remember you. Yeah, and I just burst into tears. Um and uh yeah, I I hope for some good cries in heaven when we're reunited with those who we love and when we kind of see the fulfillment of everything that we've hoped for. I don't think that crying is a bad thing. Um, I think it's a receipt for the love that we have. Um, and so in that regard, I I kind of um cringe at anybody trying to take away that pain, right? Trying to take away that receipt of my love. Um, and and so I think it's important to lean into it because it it helps us in so many ways.
SPEAKER_04But the theology of the cross there. Um so we're thinking about Easter at this time of year. Um love to get your feelings on uh when you think about the cross and when you think about the resurrection. Um how how does your experience with Joel kind of color how you see the cross, first of all, and and then the resurrection?
SPEAKER_02Sure. Um Easter's tricky for us. I think specifically because Joel died four or five weeks before Easter. And I think that first holiday that you celebrate without someone you love is really hard. And for us, to have Joel have just died, and then all the sermons at church after that were about, you know, Jesus conquering death and about um the the resurrection life, you know, and and to just hear that talk so much right after we'd lost our son was was challenging initially. Um, because I had not I in that moment I did not really feel there was, of course, the promise of resurrection life, but it was a small comfort, it felt like to me, compared to what I really wanted, which was for my son to be resurrected in this life, not in heaven, not one day, not that I would see him eventually, but that I wanted him here with me. So I think Easter is always a little bit of mixed feelings for us, but where I have come to be able to rejoice in the message of Easter, in that Jesus took on all of our suffering, that he died for us, and in dying for us, paid the price for all of our sins, and that he was resurrected. And the Bible says that he is the firstborn among the dead. It's sort of this promise that yes, Jesus was resurrected, but he's just going to be the first of many, that all of us will eventually be resurrected in that way. And so I think I've been able to come to rejoice in Easter as a promise. Our particular theology, we kind of grew up in a very charismatic background. And I think sometimes we lean toward this idea that everything Jesus accomplished on the cross is available for us right now. And so death has no sting, and we all have victory and we're all perfectly provided for, and life has been completely redeemed. And that's a tricky message if that's not what you're experiencing. And I think that it's easy to look around at the brokenness of the world and say, really? Jesus died to make all of this better? Because I look around and I don't see it. But when I actually look into scripture, it says that Jesus sat down at the right hand of God and he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. So he sat down, his work is finished. He did everything he needed to do. The work is totally and completely done. And he's waiting for the results of that to be unfurled. And we see some of the results of the cross now. We see some victory and some life now. When you, I think, become a Christian, you experience life and joy in a different way. You feel the presence of God, you experience a taste of what that life is. But I see it more as a promise that there's even more life coming, that the work Jesus did on the cross is slowly being unfurled and we will see more and more of it. And in heaven, that's when we finally get this full picture of what he purchased from us. We also like to, I think as Christians quote that, like, oh, and death will have no sting. But I think we think of it as this present tense thing, which again, it's hard to tell parents with a child that's dead, oh, death has no sting, because I can tell you, death stings. Like death hurts. There's pain there for me. But the Bible specifically says that when all flesh has put on righteousness, then death will have no sting, and that it's pointing towards something in the future. It's this promise of future life, of future resurrection power. Not that we've already attained it yet, but that it is being released for us, and that that work of releasing life to all of us began at the cross. And so there's so much to celebrate because Jesus made a way for us to have life. And that's incredible, but I don't fully fathom it. I don't totally understand it. So sometimes that's still hard and confusing for me, but it's a promise that that has been done and that I will see more and more of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I um The Cross to me has always been a strange bit of theater. The passion itself, I I don't comprehend it. It feels in much way like a passion play. Um, because I'm not sure what happened there. Um, and I'm not sure of the the fullness of how God and Jesus, who are one, are we also separate, how um how his wrath was poured out, you know, on Jesus, and why Jesus would say, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Like there's a lot I don't understand in that. Um but one thing that I've I've I've come to grapple with a little bit more is just this idea that regardless of if I understand what this passion play pointed to, um I know that it was a it was a very real thing in God. Right? That something was shifted, something was changed, uh, something was accomplished. And um and in that, like um, you know, I see I see hope. And and when I look at the cross, I look at this invitation into deliberate suffering that I don't think I saw necessarily before. Like this idea we have we focus on the kingdom to come, and so we focus on that part that's like, and we're gonna rule and reign with Jesus. Um and so we gotta start ruling and reigning now. But I think that there's this other part of Jesus' invitation, and that is to follow me, um, to pick up your cross, um, and to choose to enter into passion, into compassion. Um, and so what I look forward to is um, you know, it says creation groans, an expectation for the sons of God to be revealed, right? Like, like, and I think that's revealed in us putting on that compassion and following the example of Christ and choosing to lay down you know our desires and and our will and our rulership and all of those different things and and love people. Um and so in in that regard, like I can do that now. I can do that now, not understanding everything that was accomplished, not being able to put in human words, uh human theology, what God did in that moment on Calvary. But um, but what I can do is uh put myself in a posture of following Jesus. Um and that's that's what we've had to do. That's how we've had to navigate this this time.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Reminds me of that verse, uh Philippians 3, verse 10. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection, and everyone says, Amen. Yes, we like that. And then the verse goes on, and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death. And you're like, Yeah, it's a way doesn't sound so nice, does it? But but actually in in Paul's mind, those two things are totally, you know, the you're gonna need the power of his resurrection in order to walk the way of the cross, and the way of self-giving love, and the way of compassion, and the way of uh taking on others' burdens, and and um yeah. And that yeah, whatever triumph there is in the Christian life, it's it's the cross-shaped triumph, isn't it? Very much so.
SPEAKER_02I think it it reminds me a little bit just like in the context of video games in our video game, that if you think there's any way to win, you're not gonna you're not gonna lay down your life, you're not gonna give up. Like in our game, like when you're trying to figure out what you're supposed to do with the candles, if you think there's a pattern, if you think there's a way to solve it, you're gonna do everything you can to solve it. And I think it's only when you realize this is so beyond me, it isn't for me to fix. I'm dependent on someone else that you can finally lay that down and I think walk in that level of sacrifice of a laid-down life of the suffering that Jesus asks you to walk in. Um and I think we do that with our own lives, that as long as we think there's a chance that maybe we could get it all together, we're gonna try. And as soon as we realize, like, oh, I'm I'm really broken and I really do need help and I really can't do this on my own, that it makes it so much easier than to finally say, okay, my life can be forfeit in this process. I can I can really sacrifice, I can really give up on this idea of being being enough.
SPEAKER_00I I see a picture in our video game of, you know, I I I just felt I so uh I see video games in a very spiritual, metaphysical way, because I feel like as video game designers, we get to create worlds and invite people into it. And so one thing that I like to say is that, you know, we got to create a world and and I got to place my son in it, and I asked you to love him and let that love change you. Um and to me that is a small mirror of the promise of Christ, right? That that God put his son into the world and asked you to love him and let that love change you. Um and yet he bore, you know, all suffering. And he and and and we get to see an example of the love of God for his children, but also um the the cost of all of it, you know, the cost of all that love. Um and so in that regard, we get to we get to reflect little pieces of God in the things that we create.
SPEAKER_04Is there a sense then when you when you get to the the park at the end of the world and you see Joel? Is there a sense, Ryan, that you also think this is kind of the welcome of Jesus as well, when he says, Hey, I recognize you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, because present in that uh in that picnic is just the symbol of of communion, right? It's the symbol of panics and source. Yeah, exactly. And scattered juice boxes everywhere. So in that regard, yeah, I it's just uh it's uh it's this idea that like he that he named us and he remembers us and and and we're written in that book. Um and so yeah, like it's to me in many ways is coming home. Um and it's a place that Amy and I weren't able to go yet, you know? Joel is sent across the sea, uh, to the Grey Havens or whatever you want to call it, if you want to get all C.S. Lewisy and stuff. But just that that promise of the far shore. Um and and um I remember people sharing pictures of that of that far shore with us, of of Joel coming to greet us when we finally get there, um, of Jesus being there. And um, and yeah, there's uh it's solace, you know.
SPEAKER_02I think it's the great hope of faith that that Jesus would know you, that you would be known by God and and called to enter in. Um and so yeah, we lived, I think, with a hope that Joel would be healed on earth, and now we live with the hope that we will that we will join him in heaven and that we will be recognized and we will be known and welcomed.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. How have people outside the faith kind of responded to this game? Because you've you've immersed them in a world um and you know, you're with the letters that you write to one another, um, you're very open with your faith and and that sort of thing. Um how how have people who haven't shared your faith responded?
SPEAKER_00Warmly. Um we find that when you come with your testimony, uh, they give you a seat at the table because they want to hear it and um and and understand you. Um and I think in that space of just sharing our stories, there's no like there's no war, right? There's no conflict. There's just sharing in that suffering. Um and I think in many ways we've had some people write, like it gave me a glimpse into the way that people of faith uh view death and view suffering, um, which is maybe foreign to them, right? Um they didn't grow up with that context or they don't understand it. And so I think uh we found that uh approaching the world with that vulnerability of that of that willingness to look like fools, right? And that willingness to um uh have uh our declarations like not really come to pass, right? In that in those um in those bold prayers maybe not going answered in the ways that we wanted them to. We found that um we found good company in in the world because uh they've shared all those things and they shared all those questions. And I think one of the most surprising things people come to us with is they're surprised because they said, I didn't know that Christians had these same questions. Um, and so I think in that regard, like us opening up to the wrestle of our faith and the disappointment of our faith, but also the miraculous things that have happened, and also um the the places where we feel seen by God, um that whole mix is something that people were really willing to listen to.
SPEAKER_02I think that a lot of times when Christians want Christians want to make art, they focus on like what they can teach in the art or what they can preach in the art. And I think we started out that way. Um, but that we gradually realize that if we just told our story, there's nothing um there's nothing that is offensive in telling your own story, right? Like someone doesn't have to fight me about my story because it's my story, but they might want to fight me about what I'm trying to teach them or what I'm trying to preach to them. They might say that's not my opinion, but we're not telling them our opinions, we're telling them our story. And so I do think that helped a lot of people who might otherwise be really turned off from a game that had so much about Jesus and faith and prayer. Um we were surprised that a lot of the people who supported the game on Kickstarter or um who wrote us and told us they loved the game would tell us like I'm I'm not a person of faith, or I grew up in the church and I don't believe in that anymore, or I'm an atheist. And, you know, they would tell us these things, but but they did see something that they could identify with. And like Ryan said, they they told us those, those are questions I have, but I didn't think that Christians had those questions. I I thought those questions disqualified me from faith. And so I think that maybe we haven't done a good job as a Christian community of showing people that that faith is a wrestle, that it's something that we struggle with. And so um, I think the fact that we were willing to show that that it is a struggle and that it's a wrestle and it's something you have to deeply contemplate and that you you waver in it and you hold on to it, that that something about that struck people as true. And of course, there's always, I mean, there's always a few comments about the game here or there in reviews that are like, it was like going to church. If that's what you want to do for two hours, I guess play the game. So there were certainly people that didn't know quite what they were in for and felt a little surprised.
SPEAKER_01But we tried to be really open as we were developing the game, that our faith was a large component of it because we didn't want anyone to feel like they were like, yeah, like surprised, like, wait a second. Um, but for some people I do think there was a little bit of that.
SPEAKER_04Um I want to be respectful of your time. We've uh spent an hour and I know you've got a you've got a hard out at at uh at one.
SPEAKER_03So um is it uh should should I shall I ask you about what's next for the greens and what's next for Luminous Games? Would that be good?
SPEAKER_02Right. We've developed a couple of games that we've released since That Dragon Cancer, and um I think we've enjoyed telling some one thing that we've enjoyed in our game development since that dragon cancer is trying to find a way to tell other people's stories. We had this platform that that we were given where we could tell Joel's story, and that meant a lot to us to be able to keep talking about him and share a little piece of who he was with the world so it doesn't feel like he just had this life and and left and now it doesn't matter, but that that we can kind of help make his story matter. And so we've looked for games and projects where we can do that for other people, where we can help them tell their stories. Um, and so we've we've been privileged to be able to do that in a couple of projects, and I think we continue to look for for ways to to do that. Um I've been doing some writing and speaking and I'm working on a book about Joel, but specifically about what it was like for me to untangle my disappointment with God from my grief over Joel and kind of how God answered those questions for me and helped me kind of rebuild my faith after it suffered a pretty a pretty damaging blow. And so that's what I've been focused on.
SPEAKER_00Um with uh you know, with Joel, since he was so developmentally d uh delayed and had to suffer so many um physical delays as well. Um one thing that remains close to my heart is is looking for ways to um to create games and create space for um all types of people with all types of abilities to be able to play together. And so that's a lot of the focus that Josh and I have been focusing on in our work um with Numinous is is looking for ways to build games that everybody can play.
SPEAKER_04Love it. Love it. And so people can uh check you out. I guess there's that dragoncanter.com, uh, but also uh numinousgames.com, is that uh your URL? Yep. Fantastic, fantastic. Ryan and Amy Green, thank you so much for joining us.