The Speak Love Podcast. Sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_04In the mail yesterday, we read the news: a man is planning to sue his parents in India for giving birth to him without his consent. It's the 12-year-old's cry, I'm never asked to be born. But now it comes from a 27-year-old who adds, Solarab Daddy. Raphael Samuel said he had a great relationship with his parents. Notice the past tense there, but he has compared having children to kidnapping and slavery. Yeah, it's the kind of kidnapping and slavery where you drag someone kicking and screaming from the black void of utter nothingness and forcibly yank them into the world of being, breath, beauty, and bliss. It's that kind of kidnapping, and then you force them against their non-existent will to remain existent in this world enslaved to life and love and longing, whether they choose it or not. It's that kind of slavery, the worst sort. The 27-year-old from Mumbai is an anti-natalist who believes it is wrong to put an unwilling child through the rhythm roll of life for the pleasure of its parents. Now there are many cues in this article to the fact that Samuel has no children of his own, but none could be more conclusive than this. He thinks parents have children for their own personal pleasure. This is a theme for Samuel. One of his Facebook memes says, Your parents had you instead of a toy or a dog, you owe them nothing, you are their entertainment. Entertainment says a man who clearly has no children. Now, kids are a joy and privilege, they are wonderful, but anyone who has kids as a hobby will soon find that their new pastime is no longer Netflix binges, but rather blowing on food for what seems an eternity and insisting to your balling toddler, it's not hot. It has well been said that from the moment you have children, you can only ever be as happy as your least happy child. If Samuel thinks you have kids for kicks, that tells us only about his own motivations, not those of parents more generally. The article goes on. Now, this is what interested me. You see, I'm not quite convinced that Raphael Samuel is actually legit. Uh something makes me think he has a touch of the trouble to him. The Daily Mail takes him seriously. I'm not sure I do. Uh, hard to say where I get my skepticism from. Perhaps it's his obviously fake comedy beard. Perhaps it's the fact he seems to wear a bra on his head for some of his publicity shots. I'm not sure Raphael Samuel is for real, but the anti-natalist movement definitely is. In fact, in India, they're having a big meetup on February the 10th in Bangalore. They have many far more serious figures advocating for their position, and they've been covered in The Times of India and other uh respectable uh outlets. There has definitely been a movement birthed, if I'm allowed to use that word. The logic is simple. Here it is, expressed by Thanos in Guardians of the Galaxy.
SPEAKER_00It's a simple calculus. Life will cease to exist.
SPEAKER_04It needs By the way, if your philosophy sounds exactly like that of the most evil supervillain in the universe, then maybe you're one of the baddies.
SPEAKER_05Are we the baddies?
SPEAKER_04Yep, antilatalism is pretty self-evidently perverse. We know it's wrong. We know our choices cannot be foundational to our lives, because guess what? Our choices were not foundational to our lives, right? We live by the choice and the mercy of others. We know that we owe our existence to our parents, that we owe them gratitude and respect, not lawsuits. We know that life is worth it, even in this suffering world, don't we? Well, we ought to. But actually, every failure and every folly in my life is actually an expression of an anti-life philosophy. It's the embrace of death, of the void, of nothing. When we sin, we are all antinatalists, even though it makes no sense. Every time I imagine that my choice and my autonomy is what's fundamental to my life, I am an antinatalist, I'm against life. Every time I think of myself as a self-made man, every time I'm proud rather than grateful, I'm an antinatalist, I'm against life. Every time I imagine that suffering could never be worth it, and so I become hopeless or bitter, I'm an antinatalist, I'm against life. But life comes down to planet Earth to reverse our way of death. Jesus overturns death. And that doesn't just mean he promises resurrection in the end. It means he conquers the whole way and philosophy of death. He tells you that you do not live by your choices, you live by his mercy and kindness. You are not self-made, you are graced by God. And don't ever think that the suffering of this world is not worth it. Jesus took all the suffering on himself because he made a calculation. He considered the joy set before him, the glorious new life of resurrection, and he thought that the suffering of all the world was worth it. That's how every parent reasons when they bring life into the world. They know it will be painful, and they do it anyway because life is worth it. So reject this philosophy of death, reject this view of autonomy, reject this view of entitlement, reject this view of hopelessness. Don't listen to Raphael. You are irrelevant in the scale of things. Listen to Jesus. Embrace life.
SPEAKER_03Here we are. We're back again. Embracing life. Embracing the live cast. Yeah. Here in our cupboard. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's getting warm in here, isn't it? It is, yeah, yeah. Is the heater still on? The heater is on, yeah. Should I switch it off?
SPEAKER_03No, because I've gotten down to t-shirt now. Oh, you are?
SPEAKER_04Feeling a bit cash. All right. Didn't know it was a dress down Tuesday, but fine. Yeah. We hope that you are warm and uh content where you are. Well fed. Um we are having our lunch. Please don't feel bad if you're having your sandwiches at the same time. That's not rude.
SPEAKER_03Or having your breakfast.
SPEAKER_04That's some of you if you're in the States, that's right. If you're in Texas, do we have is Bill the Valley? Is Bill here yet? Is he here? Well Bill chip in and all my exes live in Texas, but uh not not Bill, he's not there. Uh never mind. Uh yes, so uh today on the live cast we're thinking about nihilism. Uh because you know, what what better thing do you have to talk about on a on a Tuesday lunchtime? Um as you start a very wintry February. Let's talk about the void.
SPEAKER_03Staring the abyss in the face. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Oh, I just remembered that that great quote from oh we should have we should have got it ready. But um Big Lebowski. You know Big Lebowski.
SPEAKER_03I've never seen it. Oh man.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, the dude, the dude of bias. Jeff Bridges is the dude. John Goodman is his best friend, who's the Vietnam vet and a little bit loopy. And um and at one stage they get pursued by nihilists. Right. Right. Um and uh there's there's this they're from Germany and it says, Vian nihilists, Lebowski, nihilists, we believe in nothing. Nothing, Lebowski. And then John Goodman's character says, um say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism. At least it was an ethos.
SPEAKER_03Um for any Germans who may be offended by Glenn's accent there. Fair nihilists.
SPEAKER_04That's that's also my Werner Hertzog uh impression.
SPEAKER_03In the darkness. It's one of the it's one of those films I've it I I know about it. I feel like it's it's one of those films I'm supposed to have seen, but I've not really seen. It's fantastic. It's absolutely fantastic.
SPEAKER_04Or although although I watched it with my mum uh a couple of years ago and I'd forgotten it's it's like it's broken all world records for the number of F-bombs drops. Ah, right, yeah. Which you like like watching it as a student, I was like, it was just water off a duck's back. But when you watch it with your mother, it's like everyone is a bullet.
SPEAKER_05It's like, oh sorry mum.
SPEAKER_04Did you ever w when I was learning how to drive, um, I would always play it like my music on a cassette player, because uh you know, I learned to drive in the 1900s, people. Um But I would I would always learn how to like change gear and turn the the volume down on like some F-bomb that's about to and then change back up into third and then turn the music up and it just reminds me of that Adam Buxton sketch with the NWA.
SPEAKER_03Help the police is going to be. We are the only two who know what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_04If you know if you know the Adam Buxton reference, say hello. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And if you're not familiar with it, don't go and look it up.
SPEAKER_04So make sure you look up the help the police version because the original is a little different. So we beg we began with a story that I came across yesterday, uh, which is about Raphael Samuel, um, who is suing his parents um for having them. And he wants everybody to know he has a great relationship with his parents. Yeah, yeah. He has a great or at least he had too much. It's going so well. And then uh he's compared having children to kidnapping and slavery um because you've been taken against your will and forced to live. And you were not given a choice in the matter. The horror. I know. The the the horror of being taken from non-existence into existence without without your say-so. Well, it's kind of the nature of the case, uh Raphael Samuel. Um and I I'm not particularly sure he's the most serious individual.
SPEAKER_03There there were a few things about his video and persona that made me suspicious. There are a number of clues. But lots of people have been taken in by him. Like, well, the Daily Mail. The Daily Start Mail Start. When you sent me the link, I did I mean, like I said on the when I responded, I was like, just gonna check that this isn't the onion or news thump, Babylon B, any of these satirical news sites because it reads exactly like that.
SPEAKER_04I know, I know. But he is part of a bigger thing called antinatalism, um which which is basically the uh the view that uh we're better off not existing and that it is not it is not only not a good thing, it is a uh positively bad thing to bring more children into a world.
SPEAKER_03Thanos.
SPEAKER_04Hence Thanos. Yes, yes. You you've seen Guardians of the Galaxy?
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah. Was that Guardians or was it Avengers? Oh, maybe Infinity War, what is that? Okay. Yeah, I don't know. You don't I don't know.
SPEAKER_04I do I do remember my my Facebook memes, so whether I've seen the original or not. But yeah, when your philosophy is basically, you know, the that of a supervillain, you you're probably onto a loser.
SPEAKER_03Maybe, yeah. Yeah. Maybe I mean, although we've not seen the second part of that film yet, so we don't know where's that going.
SPEAKER_04Where's it going?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I don't know. It's going towards the destruction of half the universe.
SPEAKER_03Isn't that already hasn't that's already happened, hasn't it?
SPEAKER_04Oh, has it? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Spoiler alert.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well we are the beneficiaries of death. There you go. Isn't that part of the gospel? Um But yeah, there is there is this thing called antinatalism. Have you heard of it? Have you heard of this thing called antinatalism? I first came across it because Jordan Peterson. Jordan Peterson was.
SPEAKER_03So we that's that's that's quicker.
SPEAKER_04Um he yeah, he he did a debate. You can search for um yeah, Peterson versus antinatalism online. Did he debate a specific figure or did he just, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was a back and forth. And um uh What's interesting is it's difficult to debate them once you assume their premises. Like once you sort of say, surely life is worth the suffering and they say, nope. Like, where do you go after that? Where do you go? Like when somebody just says, no, we're we're all better off dead.
SPEAKER_03It's like well I mean I wouldn't use it as a tactic, but part of me is just like, well, if you if you really believe it, but why why are you we even here having this debate? Why why have you not stepped away off this coil if you really think that that is the shuffled off this morning? The very fact that you're still here. You must think there's some value. Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_04If you're still here, you're giving a vote for life, aren't you?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I take that's fair.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. I often think that we'll we'll get onto this when it comes to kind of apologetics and when people ask the question about suffering in the world. It it is interesting that while ever we are on this planet, we are making a vote that is saying existence is better than not, even in this suffering world, which is incredibly you know, painful and it's a veil of tears and all of that. But but anyone who's actually asking the question um unless they're suicidal, in which case we we uh treat them as a pastoral issue and you know, we're we don't get their aid.
SPEAKER_03Right. We don't just say to people off you go then, you know.
SPEAKER_04No, no, exactly. And and actually it it seems like we've taken a vote that life is worth it, um even even with all the suffering. But anti-natalists say no, um it is not worth it. And um and I just thought it it would be interesting to kind of talk through how that is a sign of um a nihilistic view in the West. Um the fact that there is this fringe group that is, you know, gaining momentum, yeah. Um it does point to the fact that I I think on issues of life and of suffering, we've kind of the West has travelled east. So Eastern philosophy is very much that you know life is suffering, but the great hope is to, you know, to go to Nirvana or to be dissolved into the ocean of being like a drop of water in the sea. And uh because life is just irreducibly suffering, and because I want to get rid of suffering, I want to get rid of me. I want to get rid of existence. And I think that the West is embracing that philosophy more and more. And I think antinatalism is is just one one clue, one of ten that we'll go through. Um ways that the West has invest uh has actually embraced a far more eastern view of of suffering and is actually embracing uh nihilism. So should we should we have a look on the screen? Reasons.
SPEAKER_03Uh should be the first one, I think.
SPEAKER_04We're prepared. We are prepared, people.
SPEAKER_03So if you're on the podcast, we've got up a little picture of the first five of ten signs that show why the West has embraced death.
SPEAKER_04This is the first table. Table number one. I received it on a mountain by the very finger of God. Not really. Um signs that the West has embraced death. Number one, antinatalism. That there is this movement that has some kind of traction to it. Um and you might think, well, they're such a fringe group. Um but but actually I hear about it uh more and more in in a softer form. So when people say your carbon footprint is so terrible, the best thing you can do is not have kids. Right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, and I've definitely I think I've definitely come across that. I mean not not with people I know, but I've come across that idea on online people saying, Well, I'm not gonna have children because the planet is completely stuffed already and we don't need to contribute by having a child and you know, and and there's a logic to it.
SPEAKER_04Like if if if you're bending over backwards and you you know you only ever travel around in a in a bicycle woven out of hemp and your own sense of smoke self-righteousness, if that's your only if that is if you're absolutely, you know, totally don't turning vegan because of the methane produced by cows and etcetera, etcetera. Um actually another person comes along and just says, Well, don't have that third kid and you've more than offset your carbon footprint. Yeah. Sure. Um and and people m make those sorts of arguments today, and and they're very old arguments. So um uh Robert Malthus uh was actually a a clergyman, um, but uh he was an economist as well, and uh back at the the at the end of the eighteenth century and the beginning of the nineteenth century, he started talking about um you know, y y you can look online for these graphs where it has you know the population sort of going up exponentially and the production of food going up at not quite as fast a rate. And so at that point where the population rises in excess of our ability to produce food, you have a Malthusian catastrophe on your hands. Um and this this is a sort of a doomsday prophecy that's been kicking around since like the eighteenth century. But but you you find it rising up again and again and again and again. And and but what we find is that that gra that graph never works out in in practice because it turns out that having people around is is quite good. And that people are quite clever. And technology kind of rises to the challenge, and human beings rise to the challenge. Um and that whereas, you know, people used to say, Oh, we could never fit four billion people on this planet. Um we're now, you know, seven billion and it looks like we're gonna maybe top out at nine billion and and kind of um that that might be the max. Um but the Malthusian catastrophe has not uh has not manifested itself. Um and uh and when people kind of raise that kind of thinking, it's it's hard to escape from the conclusion that they have a kind of an anti-life uh point of view. They they would rather they would rather, in Thanos' kind of logic, get rid of a good billion or two um because they they basically think yeah, we're we're taking up too much space and too much life is a problem. Um so I I would say that that is one kind of um one kind of indicator that that maybe we've headed eastward in our vision of suffering, um, that maybe we're all nihilists now in the West. So number one, anti-natalism. And then number two, um, and I haven't put this in any particular order, I don't know why this is number two in particular, but but number two, I've said um childbirth is considered by some as violence, right? Um and you know, I I I I came across this like a couple of years ago, Caitlin Moran, who is uh an author and a columnist at the Times, um, who I love and I love reading her stuff. But she she tweeted out a couple of years ago this this very pro-choice um tweet, and and she basically said, Don't don't um tell me what to do with my unborn child because you're not the one who has to have their fannies smashed up by this by this baby. Um and so and and that that's kinda a very visceral kind of way of d describing this view that childbirth is kind of considered violence. You know, um and that like obviously from Genesis 3 onwards, we know that childbearing is accursed and painful and and horrific, and actually all the troubles in this world that we face are often likened in the Bible to childbearing because it's basically saying, look, it is incredibly and intensely painful to live right now. But in the end, there's new life. And that's that's the kind of the Christian vision that yeah, we're going through the pains of childbirth, but at the end there's new life, and and every mother will attest, you know, was it horrifically painful? Yes. Was it worth it? Yes. Um that's kind of the view. But it's just interesting that our views on childbirth are basically these days well it's a fringe view, but more more and more people are saying don't tell you know, don't say that we need to have more kids in the West. Even though our you know population level is tanking and we're we are by no means like hitting the 2.2 child you know child per adult kind of replacement rate that would actually just keep our population level in Europe. We're nowhere near that. But any time anyone suggests, well, why don't we have more kids there's there's quite often a pushback against that and and saying, well it's it's not your bullet, you you do violence to women. Uh irredeemable violence to women, violence that is not um you know, weighed against by the the good of of of childbirth. Um and so you know that's that's another view that I think it might be a sign um that in the West we you know we have a view that that suffering is not worth it, that new life is not worth the pain of it. Um so yeah, that's number two. Childbirth is considered violence. Um and then number three, uh abortion. Uh once again, you know, what should we do uh about the pain and the inconvenience that uh a child would bring into this world? Well, we we know what we do in this country 200,000 times a year and globally 42 million times a year. Um and while some of those instances uh are instances where the mother's life is in danger and and that sort of thing, largely it's not that the mother's life is in danger. Largely it's um it's that the pain of both childbirth and having the child and having that life um that we don't want to face, and therefore we make a choice against life. Um and so, you know, the the abortion epidemic is is a lot of things, but uh one of the things that it is, I would say, is is a sign that we're embracing nihilism as a culture. And then, I mean, this is this is an interesting thing, n number four. Um it's the the phenomenon of wrongful birth. Have you come across this before?
SPEAKER_03Um Well, uh not really until this morning. I th I think it ringed maybe I had come across it, but not really taken it in. It's like Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I I only came across it a matter of months ago. I uh there was an article in the New York Times, I think, by a woman who was suing her physician in the States, uh, because the physician missed the fact that her unborn child had, I think, Down syndrome.
SPEAKER_05Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04Or it might have been some it might might have been some other condition. And uh and she's had the child and she insists throughout the article love I love my little boy, love my little boy. He's my pride and joy, sunshine of my life, but I wish he was never born. And if I'd have known he would have had this condition, then I would have ended his life. I would have killed him. I would have Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. I mean, I love him, but Right. If I'd known he was gonna be like this, I'd have killed him. Right. Right.
SPEAKER_04And so she is suing her physician, um, who missed this, you know missed this cause of pain in her life, because we mustn't face pain, you know, we mustn't face difficulty, and we'll do anything we can to eliminate suffering, even if it means eliminating life. Um So yeah, so there's this phenomenon of wrongful birth. Uh I I was looking up wrongful birth on Wikipedia um just this morning. And uh here here's the definition of of wrongful birth. It says the parents of a congenitally diseased child uh may claim that their doctor failed to properly warn of their risk of conceiving or giving birth to a child with serious genetic or congenital abnormalities. Thus the plaintiffs claim the defendant prevented them from making a truly informed decision as to whether or not to have the child. Wrongful birth is a type of medical malpractice taught. It is distinguished from wrongful life, in which the child sues the doctor. Right? Right. That's a thing as well. Also a thing. Wrongful life, which is kind of it's a little bit like um um Raphael Samuel. He's he's suing his parents. In the case of wrongful life, the child sues the doctor. Um I wish I was never born. You know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Are we the are we the only same ones left, Glenn? Just like what is just what is going on? I know.
SPEAKER_04This is a thing. This is a thing, people. It's Wikipedia. Look it up. Oh man. We're only we're only four thirds. I know four-tenths of the way through. I know, I know. So there's another there's another sign that we might be embracing uh nihilism. Um here here's number five. Uh number five, euthanasia. Um so I I again we can very much sympathize with with the case of someone coming to the end of life and um and they are not compass mentors and and we all know those situations when people say, Oh, it's not a life. It's no life. Quality of life, no quality. Yeah, well that's interesting. Quality of life rather than sanctity of life. But yeah, people say it's no life, it's no life. Um and then the pro-euthanasia person comes in and says, No, it's not. You're right. Um at least or at least we can legitimately end this this life. Um and I think a a a lot of the arguments around that euthanasia come from a view of suffering that we we do not have a category for meaningful suffering. Um and it's just outrageous. Which is which it is, and and and suffering is horrific and painful, and you can't go like five verses in the Bible without being struck by how horrific and what an enemy suffering is. But um it is also redeemable. Um and it is also there there is also a category of meaningful suffering, um, which we just don't have any longer. Um and therefore the euthanasia, the pro-usan the euthanasia argument is basically we are committed to eliminating suffering, but therefore we will el eliminate the sufferer. Yeah. Um and once once eliminating suffering is your highest goal, um everything else follows.
SPEAKER_03Well, I was thinking about that in relation to I can't remember which of the which of the Scandinavian countries it is that's wiped out, so to speak, in inverted commons wiped out down syndrome. Iceland has, for instance. Yeah, that's uh yeah. Um was it Iceland? I thought it was somewhere in the But there are other yeah, there are others that have said another test, yeah. Yeah, but I mean it's like, well, how did you wipe out Down syndrome? Right. Oh well we just kill everybody that has it. Right. Like well. That's like saying, you know, I've got the cure for cancer. The way we cure can get rid of cancer is we just kill anyone who gets it. Yeah, yeah. Like that it's not really solving the issue, is it?
SPEAKER_04You know, did you know there's no cancer in the United Kingdom? And why is that? Yeah. Yeah. And like I was I was in a discussion with um somebody about my Sam Harris Jordan Peterson videos recently, and um and she she sort of said, Well, look, Sam Harris, he doesn't believe in the sanctity of life, but he does believe in consciousness. And therefore, if someone is a conscious being, then we need to do everything we can to eliminate pain and to lead to the conscious well-being of that person. Um But then, like, as you're as you're saying, therefore, one way of doing the maths for Sam Harris is you know what, let's get rid of all conscious pain. I know a way. Yeah, yeah. Like that would work. Donald Trump, what are those uh nuclear codes again? Just uh you know, bang, and okay, we've eliminated all suffering. Um But it's just so interesting how we, as a people, we we put and it's very understandable, but we put at the top of the tree of our hierarchy of values, eliminating suffering is number one. And therefore you've got to eliminate sufferers. You know, it's what antinatalism is trying to do, it's what it's what all these things are really trying to do. Um to get rid of suffering, we want to get rid of sufferers. Um and so euthanasia is just one one symptom of a wider malady. Um number six, um here's a here's another sign um that the West has embraced death that we're we're quite nihilistic now. Um I think in evangelism, um the question of suffering and evil is considered catastrophic to faith. Like it's an absolute defeater. Um in a way that outside of the West and down through history, um, people have suffered. Yeah, but people have not said there can be no God, therefore. In fact, that's that's kind of like only really in the 18th century and the and the uh the earthquake in Lisbon. Um only really then, in like the 1750s, was it, um, did people really shake their fist against God and and say there can be no good God when there's such such suffering in the world. Which is just really interesting because nowhere else on the on the planet kind of asks the questions that we ask on suffering. Um I often think the what was it what was the name of that bus um uh that bus uh advertisements. Yeah, the atheist one. Like there's probably no gods.
SPEAKER_03There's probably no god, so just enjoy it. Just enjoy yourself and enjoy your life. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And drive that through downtown Baghdad or something and see the response.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a Melbourne bus campaign that was um it was a quote from Woody Allen that said, Um, if God exists, I hope he has a very good excuse. Yep, classic. And again, you think, well, who who is it who's asking that question? It's Woody Allen who is talented, artistically fulfilled, rich, famous, top of the tree. Um he says, God better have a really good excuse. Right. Whereas if you drove his bus through a slum in Nairobi and I don't I don't think they'd even understand the sent the sentiment. If God exists, you better have a good excuse. You know, like you know, fifty percent of them are in church. You know, you you go to the the biggest slum in the world in Kabira, like next to Nairobi, and you know, like fifty percent of like going to church on a Sunday, it's it's not like they don't understand why suffering is such a catastrophic defeater for faith. They and they know a heck of a lot more about suffering than we do. Yeah. So we're missing something.
SPEAKER_03You know? I guess it I guess it comes from a position of of entitled comfort, doesn't it? You know? The the people who are commoaning most about suffering are those who actually are probably the most comfortable people in the world, right in reality.
SPEAKER_04Right, right. Because as as we've been better and better at eliminating suffering, we cling to it more and more as our highest value. And and therefore, if if all suffering is not eliminated, we thought, well, surely God would eliminate all suffering because we cannot have a category in our thinking for meaningful suffering. Justified suffering. Um whereas our ancestors all did, and our brothers and sisters around the world do. But we don't. Number seven. Uh commitment phobia. We'll go through these ones uh quickly because uh uh we want to get on to uh our interview with uh Andrew Wilson in a second. But um commitment phobia, I I think you know.
SPEAKER_03I'm not ready to talk about that yet.
SPEAKER_04Maybe next week. But maybe I'll have something else on. But like, yeah, like like just like last month I was reading about a woman who was marrying herself. Just herself. You know, marriage is on the decline, but people are marrying themselves.
SPEAKER_03Did I see someone who married their phone the other day? We've all done that. We're all seeing our phones on the side. It says sitting there with a laptop, an iPad, and a mobile phone sitting next to him all at the same time. Till death us too parts. Don't take me. That'll be easiest. They will, they will.
SPEAKER_04But yeah, there are people who are marrying themselves, and I just think I would divorce myself if I could. But like there are there are people marrying themselves and uh and not marrying one another. So we're we are commitment phobes, um number eight, the extension of adolescence, you know, people people are just not settling down and getting a job and you know. And and there's economic factors for that. It's harder to get onto the property ladder and blah blah blah. But we are delaying adulthood.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean there's a lot of the kind of man-child thing going on, isn't there? Right. I've certainly no not I've certainly seen it not in kind of close friends, but people I know who I just kind of think, come on now, you're same age as me, you're in your early thirties, and your priority seems to be playing Halo. Like and um you know, I'm up for a game of Halo, you know, but just think there's gotta be a Paul is actually up for a game of Halo, so please do get in touch. Yeah, let me know your uh your gamer name. Uh What's yours? Uh I don't actually have one, but I wouldn't of course I'd be you know what it would be. Totally up for the fasinator. So you can't be the fasinator because it's too long. So you can't hide behind anything, because whenever you hide, the word sticks out every time. Oh my problems. Okay, personal problems.
SPEAKER_04Such suffering. I know. Eliminate it. Uh and then the last two, so you know, recreation is thought of as detachments. Like when when we think of rest, um like rest in the Bible is quite interesting. Like rest is like having a meal with people and it's community, and it's actually engaging with people. Rest for us today.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Not so much.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. That's quite difficult to hear as a as an introvert. You but you you you never you never get life or oh no, no, I do. I mean, some people are proper introverts, aren't they? And they don't they can't they don't like it. But I find, you know, I like it, and then I'm like, now you need to go. But I can yeah.
SPEAKER_04Even with like total introverts, and I know I know many of them, like like the worst thing for them is to leave them in their total introversion. Like, like you you gotta come out of yourself a little bit, and a little bit more than you might ordinarily want to come out of yourself by. But you know, these days rec recreation is binging on Netflix, you know. Uh it's vegging out, you know. Um and s and again, you know, doesn't that sound like Nirvana, right? Dissolving into the ocean of being, just vegging out in in front of the in front of the box. Um and then number ten, I put um here's another another sign that the West has embraced death. It's the cut toxic people out of your life memes. Oh yeah. Which are rife. Yeah, yeah, absolutely everywhere. Yeah. I mean uh and like I un I understand there are there are times when you need to need to step away from relationships that have that have turned sour. Like you know, Jesus does say, you know, you shake the dust off your feet in certain circumstances.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. But there's definitely also also a kind of angle of people say, Oh, well, if anyone's saying anything to you, if anyone's questioning what you're like, you know, um then cut those people out of your life. You do you do you? But actually, wasn't it was it was this morning we were reading, weren't we, about the wounds of a friend stuff in Proverbs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course, actually that's that's true, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04The wounds of a friend are a blessing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we need those things. We're just be like, oh just cut out those toxic people. Yeah you know, no you're saying anything bad or anything that questions me. Right. And the way I am. Yes.
SPEAKER_04I mean, if there are abusive people in your relationship, then absolutely you need to be very wise about that. But the glee that people have are like, I'm gonna cut toxic people out of my life and spend time on someone who loves me. Me, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I said, didn't I about I said the Babylon Bead posted their article yesterday in which says God God decides to cut all toxic people out of his life, 7.5 billion dead.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we're very glad that God has not cut the toxic people out of his life. So there you are, there's there's our little uh top ten of uh reasons why the West has embraced death. Ah Happy New Year, everybody. Hope you're all doing great. I feel like that needs its own jingle. Um but we um so like when for instance we talk about being pro-life or a culture of life, we're not just talking about a single issue. Like we're actually we're actually talking about um a real embrace of the gospel, which allows us to say that um suffering can be worth it, and we will engage with the world in all its mess in order to come through that mess. Just as childbirth leads to new life, so this suffering world needs engaging with. And let's not let's not do the eastern thing of detaching, detaching, detaching, but of actually engaging with life because life is worth it. Um anyway, my little two cents. Um shall we um just talk about uh have there been any comments? What have what have people said about me? Um Do you like me? Do you? Um George Osborne says Paul is never in his early thirties.
SPEAKER_03Oh, it's so kind, George. You can come again.
SPEAKER_05Early yeah, early, okay.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, not long, another month or so, and I mean the same age as uh uh as Jesus was when uh wow. I don't know why in my head I've always had that as a kind of like cut-off point. Not the cutoff point, uh just like 33, like yeah, yeah. It's just weird thing.
SPEAKER_04But it is that thing, like when you see a sports person and and they're like they're considered old. Oh, right. And they're you know, they're they're they're trotting out for Australia, trotting out for England, age 34, and you're like, that's that's actually younger than me.
SPEAKER_03Premier League football, they're like, well, he's 28 now, so he's he's at the end of his career.
SPEAKER_04And you finally resign yourself to maybe I won't play for Manchester United. Yeah, yeah. I mean maybe it's not gonna happen. Um Yeah, so 33. Yeah, well Jesus saved the world by this age. What have you done? What have you done? Come on, man. Hey, I've got a year.
SPEAKER_03Like Watch this face.
SPEAKER_04He's gonna do a Beatles now, you know, bigger than Jesus. Who thinks? Yeah. Oh dear. Man, so uh last night we'll probably only play one uh clip from last night, but last night we uh put up a uh an interview that I did with uh Andrew Wilson in this very space. Wilson.
SPEAKER_03Wilson Again, I've never seen the actual film. Yeah, I've only seen it. I just know that Wilson.
SPEAKER_04Um and it was a brilliant conversation. I really uh loved it. He's uh got a new book out called Spirit and Sacrament. A welcome to Eucharismatic worship. Nice. Yeah. It's a neologism. A neologism. Two words together, people. So good. Add to your word list. And uh and we got into a conversation about uh so there's the the there's the Eucharistic side of things and there's the charismatic side of things. And the Eucharistic side of things is the more traditional, liturgical side of things, and the charismatic side of things is the more charismatic side of things.
SPEAKER_03So um And it tends to be that never the two shall meet kind of general thoughts. You know, that's generally how it works out in practice often.
SPEAKER_04Except in Andrew Wilson's capacious brain. In his mind, it all fits it all fits together. And he he paints a compelling picture for it all. And um and then so we got onto talking about lots of stuff. I've put the um the link to the full interview in the comments, so do check it out because it was uh it was a great back and forth. Yep, it was really good. And uh we just thought we'd we'd play you one little bit. Uh when we got onto charismatic gifts, should we have a look at uh which which one is it?
SPEAKER_03The abuse of gifts or the are we are the gifts we continuing today which is let's do the continuing gifts today. Okay, right. So hopefully this is the right one. We'll see.
SPEAKER_04One of the tweeters uh said uh what do you make of um Tim Challey's kind of review of your book, which was which was charitable and and um drew out lots of positives, but one of the things he raised, and it was a question that I had as well, is um yes, okay, but what do we continue? Is what we see in the 21st century what Paul is talking about in Corinthians or what we see in Acts or um is this that? And and I can think of a couple of things, like you know, prophecy. Um it's it's just interesting what we think of, you know, the the the most famous book on preaching written by Puritan William Perkins was The Art of Prophesying, and and he just took it for granted that prophesying is heralding the voice of Christ in in the community. And and what's interesting to me is I I I love Martin Luther's kind of threefold word theology, that he says that you know Christ is the eternal word, the scriptures are the written word, and uh proclamation is this third form of the word that cannot be divorced from Christ and Scripture. So you've got to be speaking of Christ scripturally, but to the degree that you do that, you are heralding the voice of Christ. And actually Luther's got a space in his theology that a lot of Presbyterians, for instance, don't. A lot of Presbyterians will say, ah, you know, if if someone addresses a charismatic congregation and says, I think God is saying to us all, X, I don't know how to distinguish that from scripture, and therefore there's a there's a power clash. And is and you're thinking, actually, well, go back to Luther, because Luther's got a way of saying that. He's got a way of saying, well, look, there's this third form of the word, and it's not necessarily that you're in a pulpit when you do it. You can eyeball a brother or sister and herald the word of the word of Christ in lots of different ways. And I think we've So I guess my question is so prophecy, for instance, will mean a certain thing to a certain slice of the charismatic church today. Are we positive that that's what it meant for Augustine, for Irenaeus, and for Paul?
SPEAKER_01Uh no, because I'm certainly not that those three would all agree on it. I don't know that they would. Um I but I think and I think it depends on how tight you want definition to be. Um I I think so prophecy is a a much better case study in some ways than the others, because I think healing is you know what a healing is, uh you might disagree about the extent to which someone had a gift of healing, but it's kind of obvious whereas prophecy is more open to disagreement because you see the very obviously predictive prophecy, there's going to be a famine over there, and you guys need to send them money in Acts. Uh, you you clearly have a prophetic speech in Corinth, which seems, you know, it's Paul's corrective is this anybody who prophesies speaks to another person for their edification, consolation, and encouragement. And you think, well, that sounds like a very open-ended. That could be almost any kind of public speech in the assembly. And then you could, in theory, have anything in between. And actually, when you read Acts, you think, well, the guys who prophesied, Judas and Silas, who were themselves prophets, travel around the churches telling them how to apply the Jerusalem letter. Uh, while they were praying and fasting, worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, set apart Barnabas and Saul, which he'd already told them to do. And they went, okay, now we'll send them off on world mission. It's it's not particularly like dramatic. Wow, we'd never heard that. That's like, no, we knew we were supposed to reach the nations, and we knew these guys were supposed to go, and now we're just working on timing. So there is actually a number of different ways in which prophecy functions, even in act. It's not always just predicting the future. There's a definition in the book I quote from Anthony Thizzleton, which I think is really helpful. It's like a paragraph long. This is how prophecy functions for Paul in the Corinthians correspondence. And I think it's a really good discussion that is better effectively saying, may or may not be spontaneous, but it's public, exhortatory, encouraging, edifying, or confronting speech that builds up the addressees, and that nevertheless mistakes can be made. And because it is spirit-prompted but isn't spirit underwritten in every detail, it needs to be weighed and tested. And I think that does cover some of the very agabus-y kind of profits, which I've certainly received things like that of extraordinary insight. Like, this is what's happened, you know, on one occasion, this is what was in your inbox this morning. Like, my goodness, that's terrifying. Um, what if it hadn't been something good in my inbox but had been bad? Um, genuinely, it's like, wow, it puts a fear of God into you, through to professional. prophetic insights in the mix of preaching or a more prophetic kind of sermon and including things like Charles Purgeon, who you mentioned earlier, where you whether you would use the word he didn't use the word prophecy or not, but actually he told the story with all kinds of echoes of texts about prophecy in that in that passage. Where he's he says this guy over here has sold a soul for fourpence. He just pilfered this amount, he didn't put in the offering. And uh and I think so in a sense the word is broad and I think as such that definition would cover what Basil and Ireneus and Paul all meant. Probably I don't think Augustine quite, but I haven't read all of Augustine and there's plenty of it would be different certainly from what Perkins would mean by it, but Perkins's view view would fit within that overall rubric and I think Spurgeon's would as well. So in a sense I think it's the only the very tight definitions of prophecy as in prophecy is only that speech which tells you something that no human being could possibly have known either about the future or about your inner life. That of course then is very that's very constrained and is quite narrow but I don't think that's necessarily what Paul is doing in the Corinthian correspondence. I think there's a much broader range of speech that he's addressing. And so I think that definition actually includes many of those kinds of prophecies we've talked about.
SPEAKER_04Very good and one of the one of the other things he said is that uh and it would be interesting to see what people think about this is that Andrew said um he can't think of an example where someone who's not Jesus gives a personal private prophecy to somebody else. Right. It actually the exercise the prophetic gifts is always in the context of the community. It is always to be weighed by the elders you're meant to test the spirits um and and he was sort of advocating for okay if you want to exercise whatever prophecy is, if you want to exercise it in the congregation with elders weighing it, um then that that is the sort of the the healthiest context for it. And I think if that if that is the case, then I think that really um undercuts the possibility of those private words where somebody says, you know, I know why you didn't get the job.
SPEAKER_03It's because of unconfessed sin or I've really got a sense that this is gonna happen or that kind of thing. Yeah, that you're going to marry me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah god's you're gonna marry me not happen Glenn it's not gonna happen. In big in bigger churches you'd be you'd be surprised like at all Sales Lang and Place, which is where I I I worked for a year and um and it's it's not like a charismatic church. It's it's conservative evangelical and and yet the number of times that women in the 20s and 30s group would come and and say so and so has just told me he had a dream in which we got married and and he's he's really putting pressure on me to marry him. Really? And we like we we had to learn that the response was just tell him he didn't give me that dream myself I'm still waiting on the Lord and that was still waiting on that dream myself.
SPEAKER_03Well it's it's interesting though 'cause that kind of words of knowledge type idea, I mean there's a lot of that around isn't there? Yeah. Um you know people say I really feel God is saying.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But uh is he distinguishing there so between saying I feel God is saying to the church yes like our community is he saying that's probably still that could be part of it, but it's just the very much like Glenn to you God is saying that that he doesn't see that in scripture do you think?
SPEAKER_04I think he he would see that as sometimes happening but it happens in front of other people. Um so you know Paul is told look you're gonna go in chains to to Jerusalem but it's in front of other people it's not it's okay so not just private. Not the private word you you're going to marry me and uh and I think I think if if that if that was the context for people giving words um that that would solve a heck of a lot of um pastoral damage that sometimes happens with the abuse of this gift. Um I mean like the most the most successful I've ever seen a word of prophecy work was was when I said to before before I was married to Emma there I was in a in a restaurant with the woman that I that I loved and I shot up a prayer and I said um God if I'm meant to marry this woman then give her a vision of our wedding day. And as soon as I prayed that prayer she smiled and I said what did you smile about? And she said nothing. I said were you thinking about our wedding day she said how did you know? I said I just prayed that if we were meant to get married that you'd pray about you you'd you'd think about our wedding day. Right? So then there was really no way out for it. Then there was really no way. Now this this woman um as it turned out was actually cheating on me with somebody else uh not my wife this is this was not this wasn't Emma I thought you were saying it was Emma. No I know I didn't know I tried to lead you to think of it. Oh the plot thickens so she yeah she would have been um a bad person to marry she she she came to me later and said I don't want Jesus anymore I don't I don't want you and and um and yet well we had that moment and I had that word and I like so wh what do you do what do you do with that? You know? And you know And what do you do with it? What did you do I don't know well like as I've thought about it you know for the last 17 years then like I I do think um the heart is deceitful above all things and we're always wanting to rubber stamp what we already want. Yeah if we can rubber stamp it with the voice of God then fantastic. And s I kind of thought of our wedding day and I kind of prayed oh please please please God may she think about it. And you know as it happens she did. But is this is this a sign? Is this you know um so like absolutely Andrew's absolutely right about pursuing the gifts and uh and pursue prophecy in particular. Um but we need to figure out what prophecy is actually um and we need the that healthy context I think of a wider body of people.
SPEAKER_03And part of it we part of the conversation there is to do with like preaching as well what role that has in in being prophetic. Right. You know, because I I think I guess as I read as you read a lot of the Old Testament prophets you you do get future prediction. But often you do a lot of it is kind of calling people back to what God has already revealed. Yeah. You know simply say well this is what God has said. Yeah yeah come back and which is very much a kind of you know when you preach you're very much saying well this is what God has said. Yes.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Let's come back or we need to go and do X, Y, and Z and So what do we say? 'Cause there will be some people who would say, well but it can't be that because the gifts are you know preaching and teaching and these these must be separate things.
SPEAKER_04Hmm I don't know how we Well I mean you've you just gotta ask yourself um if what we've come to see as prophecy and words of knowledge was unknown to most of church history, you gotta you gotta question that. Yeah. Um and and but but I but I think the challenge comes to every different slice of the church. You know so so Spurgeon who you know is is a cessationist um you know has a word of knowledge that that person stole from that person and he calls him out in the middle of a sermon and it was true and he he just pilfered fourpence from the other guy and um and what do you do with that? Well I've got to have I've got to have all the space in the world for that in my preaching and not only have space for it, I I want it. I I want to have that you know and I I'm to eagerly desire that gift. But but also you know in other slices of the church if what is being given the label of tongues or prophecy or that kind of thing if it if it's been unknown to vast swathes of the church, you've got a question.
SPEAKER_03I've got to wonder. And we're kind of focusing on one side here because his other his other side is really about um the liturgical side, sacramental side, yes. And the sacramental side though those those of us who are more entrenched in kind of the sacramental end of the church he's saying you know eagerly desire the spiritual gifts and that will look different maybe for different people. Right. Um but here's what it is but equally then he's saying to the the more charismatic end of the church, but there's all this kind of sacramental stuff that you're missing out on as well. Yeah. Um and you know which wasn't really part of that conversation we watched uh heard there but um you know it does come up and obviously that's kind of the thing in the book and um I think there's probably you know there's a lot of truth in that as well. Yeah yeah yeah there's you know I would say growing up in a church which was you know s uh you know Anglican full of liturgy like as a teenager or a young person kind of just you kind of plough through the liturgy and you're a bit like oh my goodness me like just you're just reading it out, you know, saying the same thing going through the motions going through the motions, yeah yada yada yada um and you know but whereas I can see now that when we do have liturgy um you think actually we're we're saying things which are good good and true. Yeah declaring stuff that is good and true. Um you know and and in the sense of you know in the sense of there being confession and stuff like that and which doesn't really feature necessarily for some parts of the church on a in a community sense. Um creeds and whatnot.
SPEAKER_04But um so it's a great book do get hold of it uh Spirit and Sacrament an invitation to charismatic uh new charismatic worship uh by Andrew Wilson um terrific book and uh it will stimulate you and uh wherever you line up in whatever uh place you are in the church I think there will be challenge and encouragement there um because basically his whole thing is that God has given us gifts and some of the gifts are sacramental and some of the gifts are um charismatic as we come to understand the term.
SPEAKER_03I I uh yeah I'm probably gonna go out and read it. And and actually the and and you know that's that's uh I I don't I don't read a lot of books because often I think you know just another one on the same kind of topics. Yeah. Um but actually this one makes me kind of go, oh this be really this is something kind of needed and be interesting to hear what is said. And I also I just think Andrew Wilson always does a great job. I really love how he is at kind of more that charismatic end of the church but actually um you know he he's a he's a very kind of talented theologian as well who I think theologically I yeah you know I'm quite happy to sit with as well.
SPEAKER_04So yeah um he is a good and he is a good and and it's sparklingly written as ever with Andrew Wilson so do get that. Um check out the uh the interview that I did I've given a uh a link in the uh Facebook uh should be on Facebook tonight as well. It'll be on Facebook tonight the whole thing's the aim and uh it's on YouTube. Uh we'll do a special podcast uh version with the whole interview on it and we'll do a podcast version of today. Um someone asked just the other day oh you're on YouTube but you're not on podcast. We are on podcasts we're totally on podcasts. Uh search for um uh so the speaklife podcast so if you go to speaklife.org.uk forward slash SLP, that will take you to the page right find them all from and there's also reading within the lines uh RBTL RBTL yeah all the acronyms yeah yeah um so you can check out our podcast there if you want to donate to our charity uh we exist because of the generosity of people like you guys just make your checks payable to you pool things and don't listen to boys um uh speaklife.org.uk slash give and there are lots of ways to give uh tax efficiently especially if you're a UK taxpayer so thank you so much for that and um yeah so look out for the bonus podcasts look out for the podcast of this um and uh yeah and um sign up to emails that's always helpful for us as well just in case you if you want to catch up always make sure you see our stuff I don't know about you I like some Facebook pages but there's so much stuff coming out that it's easy to miss it it doesn't appear in your feed for some reason algorithms uh if you sign up to our email list um then you'll get an email on a Friday kind of saying this is what's been going on and we've got prayer points on there as well so it's really helpful to be praying for us.
SPEAKER_03So I believe it's speaklife.org.uk forward slash sign up. Yeah for that. Or there's a button on the Facebook page. On the Facebook page there is a sign up button you can click that will take you through so that'd be great as well.
SPEAKER_04Very good. Thanks so much for being with us I'm off to Warwick to go and preach at uh their university uh Christian Union uh events weekend uh so pray for pray for me up there and uh yeah we'll see you again next week from Southampton from Southampton yeah we'll be from Southampton we'll be live from Southampton next week so might be a slightly different time but yeah yeah we'll see you then cool all right ciao for now take care folks bye