The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life. What does tribalism look like? Kids chanting a football song? Religious groups making race-based slurs? Banging drums and singing ancient songs. A kid in a MAGA hat. What does tribalism look like? At the close of the March for Life in Washington, DC on Friday, there were three groups of people at the Lincoln Memorial that were about as disparate as you can imagine. Some boys from Catholic school waiting for their bus to pick them up, an extremely fringe religious group called Black Hebrews, and some Native Americans finishing off their March for Indigenous People's Day. This is the most unlikely combination of people since Gogglebox had their screen tests. It sounds like the setup to a joke, really. It's a Catholic, a Jew, and a Native American walk into a bar, and you know, how did these three groups of people end up together? Well, actually, when there are marches and rallies, and especially when there are two marches on the same day, strange stuff happens. And this is really strange. But it's basically served as a Rorschach test, an inkblot test. This random assortment of characters. And now we are supposed to read the meaning out of it. You know, tell me what you see. I I see a group of uh Peruvian Marxists, some Nigerian florists, and a troop of Morris dancers. Oh, and and what do you take from all this? What does this symbolize to you? Well, this is everything that's wrong in American life. Really? I mean, some Trump supporting Catholics, a strange Hebrew cult that had been goading them for more than an hour, and then some drumming, marching Native American prayers who deliberately insert themselves into the fray. This is America? This is America. No, it's not. This this event is just a freaky confluence of forces, which before the advent of the smartphone would have left a handful of people saying that Friday night as their head hits the pillow, gee Willakers, that was a dilly of a pickle this afternoon. But no, because of this technology and because of the real tribalism, which we're about to see, heads hit the pillow on Friday night with people fearing for their lives as death threats rained down. Now you can play the song. This is America. Yeah, this is the world right now. This is the real tribalism. Razor Aslan says the kid should be punched in the face. Punched in the face. And when more details came to light that set things in a different context, Razor Aslan doubled down on his violent speech and then tripled down on it in self-righteous zeal. Screenwriter Michael Green said, no one need ever forgive this kid. For life, no one need ever forgive a boy who smiles at a drummer. Ever. Unforgivable. The TwitchFolk mob piled on when a few seconds of a two-hour-long video were clipped out by the media. And look, it wasn't just Twitter, it was respectable news outlets. Originally, the New York Times ran with Boys in Make America Great Again Hats mob Native Elder at Indigenous People's March. It spoke about a throng of cheering and jeering high school boys surrounding a Native American elder. That's not what happened though. The Native Americans marched into the midst of a group of teenagers who were waiting for their bus, and they banged a drum in one boy's face. So, under pressure, the New York Times softened their headline to viral video shows boys in Make America Great Again hats, surrounding Native Elder. So still they're talking about the boys surrounding the native elder. But then they write a follow-up article, again, under pressure from people who see what actually went on. The new headline read, Fuller Picture Emerges of Viral Video of Native American Men and Catholic students. The journalist writes interviews and additional footage suggests that an explosive convergence of race, religion, and ideological beliefs against a national backdrop of political tension set the stage for the viral moment. Early video excerpts from the encounter obscured the larger context in flaming outrage. No, no, no. What obscured the larger context was you viewing this Rorschach test and coming out with your own headline. And you do it again here, you know, against a national backdrop of political tension. No, that's your backdrop. You've inserted the backdrop. Why isn't it uh against the backdrop of a chilly January day? Why isn't it against the backdrop of a bunch of kids waiting to catch a bus? That was the context of the actual kids. The context you bring is the context you bring. The New York Times article continues. There were also those uh black men who identified themselves as Hebrew Israelites, preaching their beliefs and shouting racially combative comments at the Native Americans and the students, according to witnesses and video on social media. Yeah, racially combative, yeah. Uh they called them crackers, racists, bigots, faggots, and incest kids. Uh they called one of the black students the n-word and said he should leave the school lest his organs be harvested. Yeah, I'd say that's racially combative. One of the members of the Native American March told the boys to go back to Europe using some pretty fruity language. Language that if the boys used of anyone else, you know it would be going viral. If that one kid's silence provoked such outrage, imagine the reaction if they'd said anything racially combative to anyone else. But the New York Times journalist is aware that some kind of equivalence needs to be established. The boys need to be seen to be equally guilty of racism, because racism is the only currency we deal in anymore. So the article continues. For some, I mean we don't know who, I mean, who are your sources, New York Times? For some, invoking the name of Mr. Trump, who has made inflammatory comments about Mexicans and Muslims, has become a racially charged taunt. Inspiration for hateful graffiti and high school sports cheers alike. So simply mentioning the name of the US president is a racially charged insult. Um they're trying to say that the school chance that these boys were chanting was actually about Trump. I mean, where's the evidence for that? Mr. Trump also recently mocked Senator Elizabeth Warren, whom he called Pocahontas, with a reference to Wounded Knee and Little Bighorn Sacred Ground for Native Americans whose ancestors fought and died there. Um we're still waiting to hear what any of these teenagers actually did, and and and then we come across a phenomenal use of the passive voice. Note this. It did not go unnoticed that Friday's episode took place at the same location where the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. delivered his most famous address calling for an end to racism in the United States. I love that. It did not go unnoticed. It's the journalistic equivalent of, hey guys, guys, has anyone noticed? This is the same place that MLK gave that speech 50 years ago. Guys, have you noticed? Right? That's the background, people. That's the frame in which we must view all of this. You know, they they they've put two and two together and they've come up with racism. Racism squared, racism to the nth degree. It is a Rossarch test. And what do they see? Racism! Racism everywhere. What was that kid meant to do? I mean, literally, what was he meant to do? He was singled out by a man banging a drum in his face. When an even more provocative older man was goading his friends, he called on them not to respond to the goading.
SPEAKER_05Why do you go back to Europe?
SPEAKER_03He actually comes across like a peacemaker, if you ask me. What was his crime? He smiled. What was he meant to do? I mean, the merest eyebrow raise could be and was interpreted as a sneer or as mockery. I mean, what could he do? What could he actually do? Could he dance along? You know that the media would cry cultural appropriation in a heartbeat if he danced along. What could he actually do? What did he actually do? You know what he did wrong? He wore that hat. Really? I mean, that's it. And and I get it, you know, I am no fan of Donald Trump myself. I would not have voted for the man. I don't like the politics of making countries great again. In July, I saw a sign in Australia saying, make Australia great again, and I groaned audibly and nearly crashed the car. It made me angry. I don't like making countries great again. It seems to me like that kind of politics takes a traditional religious framework and applies it to a nation's history. So where the Bible talks about creation, fall, redemption, this kind of politics talks about the 1950s as the Garden of Eden, the 1960s as the fall, and redemption is yet to happen. But but please vote for a messianic leader. Like, I I don't like that. I don't like building walls. By the way, no one has found anyone saying build the wall in the two hours of footage that we have from the Lincoln Memorial. But look, I'm not into building walls, I'm an immigrant, I've been effectively deported from this country in the past, I've split my life across two hemispheres, and I am not in any way nationalistic. I don't like building walls. But this is a kid in a MAGA hat, and I don't hate him. Why do you hate him? It's not because of anything he did on Friday, Mahatma Gandhi could not have done much better, I don't think. You know what he's been so hated? He is a pro-Trump, pro-life Catholic. He got his politics and his religion wrong. He was marching against women's health, said Janie Haddad Tompkins. Well, he's he's either against women's health or he's against the slaughter of millions of innocent babies, you know, one or the other, but let's not let let's not let that stop the hatred, right? In fact, in fact, please let it let it stop the hatred. Do stop the hatred, please. I mean, you might hate the MAGA hat, I don't like it, but let this kid redeem it for you. Because there he stands, open-faced, smiling, pacifying, in the midst of a mob, and and this is the way of peace. If you don't like this kid's face, then look, okay, look to the face of Jesus, who stood in a mob, turning the other cheek, allowing the condemnation to crash down on himself, and answering with peace. He answered with the smile of heaven, recognize that you and I are the angry mob, and he is the open-faced, open-armed peacemaker. He is the hope for this fractured world. Because it is fractured. What does tribalism look like? The kids? The religious sect? The Native Americans marching? No. The media and the pitchfork mob and every politician who leverages that animus, they are the tribalists tearing us apart, encouraging violence, and casting everything as a war. They are the ones building the wall. And everyone is paying.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Welcome to the live cast.
SPEAKER_03Welcome everybody.
SPEAKER_02So there, that's uh put that one to bed now. So that one's fine. Good.
SPEAKER_03Until someone finds a tweet of that kid three years ago. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02And then I would just hold my hands up and say uh I was the person who was uh charged with making that video. And uh for the the one bit of bad language that slipped through, I missed that on the other bit. So there's some bleeps. I'm sure you've all heard it before anyway, but some of you may not have wanted to have heard it. So apologies that I missed that one. Yes, insert your own bleeps.
SPEAKER_03Very, very sorry, the word that the New York Times has got through. Um for anyone who was triggered by that. Sorry, cheap gag. Cheap gag! And now I'm now I'm doing the whole tribalist thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, shocking, shocking. Um I wonder if anyone so so that that um that story is I I'm interested, I've recently I've just posted it on my Facebook page and said what do people think about this story? And I just posted the BBC initial one about the boys mocking, because that was the one I first saw. And I I saw it initially on uh Saturday morning or something, and I and I I don't think I even read it. I just saw the picture, saw the headline, and I was like, you know, and and I thought like he looked uh he looked a bit spug in the photo, and I thought if this I just kind of thought, oh that's terrible, isn't it? You know? Yeah. And then I just kind of moved on because uh I didn't think much of it. You have a life. Yeah, exactly. I've got other things to do. Um and then came in on Monday and you asked if I'd seen it. And I said, Oh yeah, yeah, and you and you asked what I'd seen about it, and I kind of said, Well, I've not really uh looked at it much. And then I started to look at it and I delved a bit deeper and found ooh, there's a bit more of a story here. So there's a there's sort of different sides going on. And so I posted it on my Facebook earlier, I'll be interested to see what people say. Because I know I don't think in the UK it's been as widely uh picked up, whereas in the States it seems to be like that's gone far and wide. Right. Um But it makes it makes a difference.
SPEAKER_03Like you know, if you're just if you're th if you're shown that picture and it's interesting, you saw you saw the kid uh smirking, like what did you think? He was just he was just did you think he had a punchable face?
SPEAKER_02I think many people have um I d I d I mean I don't I don't particularly remember, I just thought um I saw the headline that was something about you know mocking and happening, and I just kind of I'm thinking like if that is like the case and that's terrible. I mean I don't think I may I I don't think I particularly looked at the photo and thought, look, I'm looking into the face of evil right now, like you know Quick Becca, come and see this. I've never seen more deep evil than the eyes of this boy. But I just kind of moved on from it. Um I'm interested to see what people will say on my Facebook right feed, whether there will be other people who just kind of read it or seen the headline and said, Oh yeah, this is terrible and how people will react maybe if you know, we say, Oh, there might be something else going on here as well.
SPEAKER_03Um the difference that context makes. Like context is just absolutely huge, you know. If if you think if you if you see a still image, like one of the first things I saw about it was there's a kid frozen in a rectus grin as as the uh you know Native American beats the drum in his face. And I think I think that was because they watched uh a still photographer. It doesn't blink. It doesn't blink.
SPEAKER_02But it was weird, I mean 'cause I just sat watching and thinking, you know, like w uh I want to see what's going on and saw some of the other bits. And and people had taken uh footage of the Native American man speaking about uh you know what had happened and they kind of put it next to the footage. Right. Um I think it was all taken on the same camera that uh the the kind of main photo ended up being taken from. Um but it was you saw the footage from earlier on and how the boy's just kind of in the background smiling away and you know with everyone else. And this guy does go go up to him and he's actually saying in his interview, like as this footage is being displayed next to him, you know, oh yeah, and they came up to me and did this, and you're thinking this is com I mean, you're looking at it going, well that's just simply not what's going on here.
SPEAKER_03CNN didn't correct it, but no, no one no one said anything about it.
SPEAKER_02And um so so my take on it is is so from what I've seen, and I've watched I've seen numerous angles of footage from various phones, and I've watched uh the one hour forty-five of the uh black Israelites uh uh footage, and I've obviously skimmed through some of it to to get to the section. Um it seems that there were these uh the the boys had been in town for the uh uh March for life.
SPEAKER_03They then went sightseeing. Okay. I think that's when they busted out some of the the mega hats.
SPEAKER_02So they were waiting on the steps for the buses, my understanding. In this group, the Black Israelite movement were there, and uh um and it seems from what I've seen on the footage that the the things they were saying are pretty horrific, uh very kind of vile racist things. Um and at some stage they they engage the boy. It's hard to tell whether at some point the boy maybe the boys started saying to them you shouldn't be saying these things, or whether they engage the boys. It's a bit tricky to tell where it started. But some engagement occurs and the boys start chanting um like their school chance that they were doing their school channel to kind of uh cover up the the hateful preaching. And so whilst that's going on, then you see footage from the the black is like movement of um it's on their footage. You see Nathan Phillips walking into the middle so the group don't go to him, he walks right up between the two into the boys, stops in front of them and eventually moves in the to them and at some point within that he then You mean that a pro-Trump mob surrounded the Burner.
SPEAKER_03Isn't that what you mean?
SPEAKER_02Well and that's the thing is I watched that I just thought this is so not at all what's going on. And admi and so I mean the thing I w I what were the boys doing when he came into the midst of them? People were saying they were disrespecting him and and and again you're seeing this footage of him saying um I always felt fearful, uh you know, they're angry faces, and you look round at all the faces around him close up to him they're all laughing and uh smiling. Um now, uh are they taking them in? They're jumping up and down. I think f some of them you hear them at some point say, like, I'm so confused and what's going on? Like because he walks up and in the middle of it. And I think initially some of them think like he's come to join them to drown out these guys. So they're all jumping in time with the drum and going, you know, maybe some of them being typical stupid teenage boys and maybe they're doing something about you know they shouldn't be doing in terms of they're making some uh you know uh Native American kind of gestures or things that they think you know a bit they should be, you know, whatever. Maybe they it's hard to tell though. Um but they're certainly not a hate-filled mob. Right. They seem I mean and then initially what seems to be is this guy with us that becomes to what's actually going on here. Yeah. And eventually it diffuses. And and the whole thing kind of even after the it kind of drifts away, and there's quite a lot more footage. Yeah. And it all drifts away, and no one really doesn't know what it and it's only then later someone's gone, uh let's take this one thing and blah blah blah. And interestingly, it was a uh someone had found the the photo that uh one of the women it was a lady who'd said she'd been there and she'd shared this photo with the writing on it, and she put what had happened. And as you read it, again, it's the you know, again, you know, the hateful of the mob and they surrounded us and um they they came up to us daring us to get physical and stuff, and you go, uh the footage just does not show that at all. No. I mean, they don't even come up to you, you come up to them. Yeah, so it's hard to the thing is though, I know immediately and probably not on Speak Live, but I imagine if other people were watching this, people would just go typical white man siding with a white closing ranks with a you know. Um But I think when you look at the footage, yeah. You gotta say I mean I've no idea what really Nathan Phillips was uh uh attempting, really. No, it's not. I mean he's in a closing situation. So I I don't know what he was in the city. But the thing is what happened was as well is that they were saying um they were there was initial suggestions as well that the the boys were here were here are some Trump supporters who are um kind of goading a a black um kind of group, uh rights group. Um but what was neglected we mentioned that I mean the black Israelite movement are not a black rights group if they think that the black they think the blacks are the descendants of the people of Israel and the only truly chosen race, truly chosen race. Yeah, yeah, and effectively they're just bla are black supremacists who are full of hateful racism. Massively and they were spewing hateful racism, and you see that I mean you mention it on there, they said they said about there was a black boy who was one of the students, they were saying, You've got to get out, yeah, they're gonna harvest your organs. Right. Um, and they say, you know, um you say, you know, in the states, in God we trust, it's on your bills, your dollar bills, and all this, but yeah, you give gays rights. So you even hear one of the Catholic guys the Bible condemns so the the black guy from the Black Israel movement says and the Bible condemns uh and one of the Catholic boys goes, but they're still people. Right. You know you even hear that. And they they boo the homophobia, they boo the homosexual rights. They do, yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_03And and so I think it would be the other way around from the way things were reported.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so there were these two groups who uh who seemingly were involved with something, and then and then Nathan Phillips comes into the middle of this as well as just kind of a third party.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's just very bizarre.
SPEAKER_03I think uh if if people are having trouble um figuring out like the tone and the the vibe of the place, then you should just go to Speaker's Corner and you'll see. And and there are black Israelites there um at Speaker's Corner, and and there are people from all sorts of different persuasions. You got your Marxists and you got your Christian atheists and you've got your Jews and your Hindus and your Muslims and and and Christians and and everyone and and then all sorts of political you know speeches going on. And like I I used to go down there every every Sunday because it's it's a real collecting place for nutters. Like me, yeah, yeah. I fit right in there. And and it's just such a weird and and some section of the crowd will sort of you know there'll be human spirits and they'll get up and they'll start singing a hymn, or you know, someone else will start chanting Allah Akbar or something, and and it'll just go back. And forth and nobody knows what's going on. And the like the number of times I've been at Speaker's Corner, or or you know, I I I marched against the the Iraq War back in 2003, and you and you just think there were times when, like, in between speeches, we just like threw the Frisbee around and just were laughing and joking and and that kind of stuff. And and you just wonder, well, like, if there was a smartphone there in your face, and you know, maybe someone was saying something like on stage and I was smiling. Can you imagine what kind of monster are you? Like i if you take anything out of its frame and put it into a different frame, you can you can create a monster out of anyone, and here's proof of it. Here's a kid who's smiling. What what else could he do?
SPEAKER_02Well and and and people say, like, you know, what's he doing and why didn't he move? And you know, and to be honest, I don't know why he didn't just step out of the way, but it but it was such an odd situation that I mean if I I imagine the thing is if it it felt from watching the footage that you know the guy had come up to him and really fixed him with a bit of a stare and was right in his face. He thinks, well what what do you do? Like, because clearly it's the the tension is on you now. You're like, Do I do I step away? Like do what I do and but the you'd it you know, people said he was kind of confrontational. And I mean he does look him uh look at him for a very long time. Yeah, it's it's unusual. But yeah. Actually, other footage shows there are points when he kind of looks down, he looks away, he even turns. He turns and he tells his mates to to buy it. And he's looking around as well, but that's not really shown. No.
SPEAKER_03But it's just it's just Simpson's episode where where he's like giving the interview and then they hit pause on the telephone. Mr. Simpson and the clock keeps moving in the background like the time changes.
SPEAKER_02Mr. Simpson, don't take your handground on me. Dramatization may not have been out of happened.
SPEAKER_00That's what it was. It was a bit like that, yeah.
SPEAKER_02But you there is a sense of you know, I don't know how how old is he, maybe sixteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen? Slightly kind of what do I do in this situation? Who would not be like that? Who would not be like that? And I mean if he just walked I mean, s someone said, you know, I don't know why he moved out didn't move out of the way, but then I don't know why. How do I single then? He was single down there, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like he really was. So what do you what else do you do but smile and then have death threats, you know, rain down on your head? And he can never be forgiven. He can never because he No oh yeah, wait, because he may be smirked.
SPEAKER_02Thing is, even if even if he was smirking, even if he was, even if even if he was smirking, do we really say something that he would have done as a seventeen-year-old boy is defining of him his life. It's fascinating last week, wasn't it, on the Russell Brown and Candace Owens thing, where she talks about the racial abuse she received when she was a teenager. Yes. And she talks about one of them being a fourteen-year-old boy, and she she won't call him a racist. She's like, he was fourteen. Right. Is he a racist for his whole life? Right, right. But of course well, in society, yes. Yeah. But maybe in the church we should be saying, well, no. Yeah. Well we should be saying no. Yeah. Not necessarily.
SPEAKER_03Um it's just and and the number of tweeters who just imagined what it was like inside the head of this guy. Uh there's one BuzzFeed journalist um who was who was just BuzzFeed and journalists probably don't go together, do they? I know this guy. She was like, there was one of Let me read out. So uh um at Ann Helen. So here's a BuzzFeed journalist. She's she talks about the guy and she says, There was always one of them in every class, the guy who whispered to his friends when I lectured, the guy who snickered when his classmates answered questions, the guy who tried to turn serious class discussions into jokes. Of course, that guy was also the guy with the gumpch to ask for extensions, to miss class, and email saying, What did I miss? To plagiarize, to get a C and come to office hours and try to flirt his way to a better grade. The goal of his mediocrity never ceased to surprise me. And this is just like tweet number four in like this tirade. She's just imagining from a little bit. It's like all that. She's made this whole character. And it's, you know, Miroslav Wolf, and and we should listen to Miroslav Wolf because, you know, as as a theologian who grew up in the Balkans and saw what really happens when this kind of tribalism like is lit and turns violent, um, you know, in in exclusion and embrace, he said, you know, the human tendency is always to exclude the other person from the community of of humanity and and to exclude yourself from the community of sinners. That's what we're always trying to do. I'm I'm not a sinner, and that guy's not human. Yeah, and you just say that. And like, how on earth are you getting into his head and coming up with this like caricature of some guy that you've seen a few seconds lifted out of context from?
SPEAKER_02We've had uh like so someone here, Jim Gaulier, said, Do you think it may cause people to give pause at all? You know, like to actually, I assume the question is saying, Do you think this will make people stop and go, oh well, my answer is no. Um not at all. Because I've seen already in the peop people commenting on different parts of this, different videos and things. And and it's and it's obvious some people are commenting without having actually watched anything more than or done more than read the headline like I did initially.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And people are saying, Have you seen this? and they're posting a bit more footage in a in a link or something. And clearly people aren't looking at it. And you know, it it reminds me of I can't remember who it was who did the people who did the article where they they posted some outrageous headline but with literally nothing in the body of the article, and everybody just went mental on social media like commenting how terrible it was. But of course, and people going, now we know who's read the article and who hasn't, because it was just an empty article. Wow. But it was a bit reminded as well, because people want to be this is my concern. Like when we hear other people say things to it, it's like how how many people have bothered to actually look into it? So so I feel like I have, because I've at least sat through some footage from different angles, and an hour and forty-five footage is quite a long time since we I'm not gonna claim I've got the whole scoop on it, right? But I imagine there's lots of people who read the headlines, watched the tiny clip in in the articles, and that was it, and have now proclaimed you know the final say. But it reminds me a bit of did you see News Night the other night? Um can't remember the guy's name now, um, but he got called on something, and they said, Have he was saying about this report? And they said, Have you read the report? And they said to him, Have you read it? And he was just absolutely you could tell he'd not read this report at all. And he was saying all these things about the report, but he'd clearly not read it. And and I mean it was just a painful to watch. Fine read. Yeah. I mean I've heard of it. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, but there's lots of books I think I've read, and then when I think back, actually, I never did.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I I worry that that is so I I don't think it will cause people but but my biggest concern is is not so much that it won't cause people to stop. Um that is obviously bad. But I think as Christians we should have a higher we we should be called to a higher kind of critique of these things, I suppose if whatever. Right. We we should be interested in the truth, which is I'm always baffled when I when I see Christians uh posting uh you know various things uh just silly things like um this is a notice to Facebook here by I hereby let you know you do not have the right to do yadda yadda yadda. And I'm like, this is a hoax. You did if copy and pasting these things into your status is not gonna make any difference to anything, how have you fallen for this? Yeah, take two seconds to Google this. Yeah. You know, everything is you can Google, yeah, basically.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um some so like the it seems like the Catholic Diocese uh of k in Kentucky, where the the school is, just threw them under the under the bus immediately and sort of, you know, and the and the principal was like, well, everything up to uh up to um expulsion is on the cards and and we'll see. Um and there were a lot of sort of Christians who wanted to come out and say, um if you know and to and to condemn the boys for this apparent racism. And and so the the Christians there was there was a kind of a Christian impulse that was was sort of, ah, whatever is true about this, we're sorry and we repent. So that was that was good, yeah. But but without the fact-checking, um actually it's just throwing people under the bus.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Yeah. And and I mean it's shocking to see people like Reza Aslan saying things. I just think uh why no one at any uh at that kind of level should be speaking about anyone in that kind of way. I mean you should you should you should conduct yourself with a level of decorum. Yeah. You know, even if you find something completely awful, yeah, you know, you you've got to get above the that kind of very carnal just smash everyone type thinking. Yeah, yeah. Um but then I mean there was also a thing yesterday, I think, from Alyssa Milano had condemned it. Why had she and you just think like and then I thought, well why why do I care? No but but why do we care what like um why do we care which celebrities vote for Trump or don't vote for Trump? Like why are we taking anything about situations like this from celebrities? I mean, literally people whose job is to dress up as other people and pretend play make believe and get filmed doing it, and we're taking political advice from them, then we're getting our thoughts from them. I just think we've gone a bit bonkers, but then obviously people should take all their thoughts from us. That's right.
SPEAKER_03It just it takes like it takes a whole weekend to unpack that one headline that went viral, and you know, he and his family were doxxed and life was made very difficult for them, death threats came, you know. It took and it took nothing, it took nothing for anyone to pile on on social media.
SPEAKER_02Well it happened it happened quite recently, you know, with the Gatwick drone. Right. Actually, the the couple in Crawley who were kind of falsely accused. Uh it turns out a lot of people in Crowborough where I live actually know them through work things, and what a guy who actually works for someone who lives in Crowborough. Okay. And you know, so it was all over the Crowborough kind of feeds. Yeah. Um and people were saying like it's it's just not it's not true, you know, and and it wasn't true.
SPEAKER_03And he was at work the whole time, but yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02They're saying he was at work with me, all these things, yeah, but yet they you know, pe they they they'd been slandered all over the world and addresses published and all that kind of stuff, and yeah, the media were like, Yeah, yeah, it wasn't him.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, like, well, too late, you kind of destroyed because we just we just love rushing to judgment. Um absolutely love it, and we love to justify ourselves, and and the cheapest way of justifying yourself, appearing righteous in the eyes of others, is to condemn someone else, right? Because you're better than them. Um so uh someone asked for the Mirislav Wolf uh quote in full. This is from Exclusion and Embrace, and and it's it's brilliant, really. He says, Forgiveness flounders because I exclude the enemy from the community of humans, even as I exclude myself from the community of sinners. But no one can be in the presence of the God of the crucified Messiah for long without overcoming this double exclusion, without transposing the enemy from the sphere of the monstrous into the sphere of shared humanity, and herself from the sphere of proud innocence into the sphere of common sinfulness. So again, that's what we need is the gospel, right? Like with the gospel, I can't look at the enemy and not see actually someone in the same boat as me. And I can't look at myself without seeing a foul racist or bigot or, you know, whatever terrible, you know, epithet you want to fling at somebody else. I can't I can't look at myself without seeing a sinner. And I can't look at you without seeing a friend and brother, you know, and and and that's because God the Righteous One took that condemnation on the cross. And and like in the in the monologue, I d I didn't want to paint the kid as though he was Jesus or anything. Like especially because, you know, no doubt they will find a tweet of his, you know, from three years ago that was unfortunate, and they'll take that out of context and they'll say, ah, see, all this pushback and the defense of the kid, look what he's capable of. So I'm not trying to paint the kid as Jesus, but there is something about standing in a mob where condemnation is raining down, and you answer with a smile, and you answer with open-faced pass pacifism, you know, and and okay, so take it out of the realm of there and just go to the cross and see there it there is the God who like came into a shame storm, and you know, and this kid, he's he's he's starting to feel what it's like to be piled on. And and I uh I I don't know psychologically how I'd cope if I had tens, hundreds of thousands of tweets against me and all sorts of horrible things. So I don't know how psychologically how he copes, but Jesus had the sins of the whole world just piled on top of him, and he really had done nothing wrong, um, and yet he would bear the shame in order to give us his peace. Um and it's only as as we shape ourselves around that story that we're gonna escape these shame storms here. Um Yeah. So I don't know, what do we what do we draw from this? What's the what's the lesson, Paul?
SPEAKER_02Um there is no hope.
SPEAKER_03Um it's all over. It's all over, people.
SPEAKER_04We're done for.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. One outcome of it is very interesting. Like, if you now Google March for Life. Oh, yes, here we go. Show us, show us, let's do this. Let's let's see what this story has done. Hopefully you can still hear it. If you don't know the context of the story, this was at the end of the March for Life. And the kids went off sightseeing and then got their bus home. So um, but they were they were in Washington for the March for Life. So let's Google March for Life. See what comes up for March for Life. See what comes up. Okay, top stories like like tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands of people uh marching for the rights of the unborn.
SPEAKER_02The top stories are uh this So March for Life Teens confrontation there, and then Ben Shapiro's been dropped.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, we'll get onto that in a second.
SPEAKER_02So March for Life Teens confrontation with Native Americans. It reveals what Google won't tell me. And then some Wikipedia entries. Interesting though that the highlighted things right at the top are the And then Pence, go down, go down, go down.
SPEAKER_03There we go. Pence praises wife despite controversy. What on earth? What? And and finally, finally, you get where pro people, Rachel Campos Duffy visits DC March for Life. Yep. Um, from Fox News. Okay. Uh like you're you're getting down towards the bottom of the page. So I f wow, well well done everybody, for absol absolutely obscuring what happened when perhaps hundreds of thousands of people were marching um to defend the rights of the unborn. And the story, the story about Ben Shapiro, um, if people don't know him, he's uh a Jewish podcaster among other things, and uh he's firmly pro-life. And he did one of his podcasts from The March for Life on Friday. And uh and this is again uh all about context. Um he in in answering common pro-choice arguments, um he is answering he was answering the claim that um abortion actually lowered the crime rate. Okay, it's in the book Freak Freakonomics. And the you know, it it it seems to me like really ugly as a So that's to clarify that was something that's a pro-choice argument.
SPEAKER_02That's a pro-choice argument that it came out in the 70s. Right, right.
SPEAKER_03So Roe vs. Wade in 73, and then um abortion rates go up. Um and then you can see that when the people who would have lived um aren't there anymore, that actually the crime went dri d you know, drops. And it's and it's all based on um because the minorities that commit crimes the most are also the minorities that are targeted in the womb. And this is a this is I mean, so that should be the story. That's absolutely should be the story. And so Ben Shapiro, in unpicking that argument, then says, it's like the killing baby Hitler arguments. You know, should you go back in time and kill baby Hitler? Right. And he said, Well, if you if you knew that he was baby Hitler, maybe just take him out of the family where he was and put him in a good family, and he'd he would no longer be Hitler, right? Which is what he said, and then that was snipped out, that twenty-one seconds was snipped out without any context, and baby Hitler became a trending hashtag. And the the hatred and the scorn poured down on Ben Shapiro, who was actually unpicking a racist argument, if you asked me, and a pretty and beyond racist, like really obnoxious and and horrific. Like you know, let's reduce the crime rate by killing people more likely to offend.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Because I mean we know we could pick and pinpoint exactly which of the babies were going to be criminals.
SPEAKER_03If we have the right precognitives. Yes. What's that film? Minority reports. Minority point. Yeah, that's all we need. Abortion is just basically it's basically minority without the precogs. We don't know. So we just better slaughter 42 million per year. That's what we we better do that. That's profound. So but Ben Shapiro mentioning baby Hitler, um, that's the objectionable thing. And so two sponsors uh dropped Ben Shapiro, including the toothbrush manufacturer Quip, uh, who had been uh supporting the Ben Shapiro show, uh, and they they released an announcement saying following one of our ads being read in a venue we did not endorse, we have chosen to discontinue our advertising relationship with this show. Okay, fine, free it's a free world, they can do that. But they s they said they did it to ensure all of our advertising partners are aligned with our oral health mission and values. You make toothpaste people, it's toothpaste.
SPEAKER_02It's like Yeah. So if if Shapiro had come out and been kind of very pro-choice, they would have felt that that was furthering their oral crusade. Maybe to help people with dental hygiene.
SPEAKER_03Maybe. You know, it it comes alongside, you know, this this week we also had the Gillette ads. We were gonna go into the Gillette ads. That was gonna be news. Do you remember that? It's like these news cycles are so brief. That was another thing I just saw and I was like, alright. So Gillette the best a man can be was a film that was released just a few days ago. It was it was between the now, it was in the last week. In the last week because it hadn't it hadn't dropped when we last had the the the live cast. I thought I was gonna do my monologue about that. But we've so moved on. Like it's like days older. It's like five days ago. It's totally it's totally gone now. But um that was all about toxic masculinity and Gillette is is trying to align themselves with where people are at. And Proctor and Gamble, the parent company, came out with a really chilling um uh statement that said that that actually um they they really want to be prominent in pushing for you know the rights of gays and blacks and lesbians and minorities and and any w anyone they can. Um and they they really want to politicise like hygiene products. Like they they really want to. They like they they think they know what the meaning of sex is or the meaning of gender is. They've got that view and and they're gonna use their platform to preach politics to us. And and the the cynic in me like which is quite a lot of you politicians.
SPEAKER_02Mostly not in me, it's just out here. Um it says, you know I really doubt someone at Gillette thought, you know what, toxic masculinity is a real problem, and I really think we can do something about this through our you know, our with our platform. I imagine what someone thought was, do you know what? This is a bandwagon we can jump on to make lots of dollars. Right, right. Yep. Yeah. And everyone's talking about it. Right. And you know, I'm sure there'll be some people out there who are saying, like, I'm now going to buy Gillette Raz. I'm sure there's plenty of people saying they're not going to be able to do that. They've got a lot of views, they've got twenty-four million views in a few days. Yeah, I mean I mean we should do that. At the end of the thing, I feel a bit about this I could do about celebrities. Like, why do I care what a razor brand thinks about anything apart from razors, quite frankly. Yeah. Completely, Gillette have always been overblown about the compensation.
SPEAKER_03We have we have 37 blades. The first blade does nothing at all. I'm not the second blade does reconnaissance. The third blade does market research on the political views that people would find acceptable.
SPEAKER_02I'm not even that interested in what they tell me about razor blades, you know, like what they tell me about how I should think. You know.
SPEAKER_03Sell me the razor. Just sell me the razor.
SPEAKER_02I just like a shame.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Bill Lavelle was right. He said that the Bill Lavelle says the Gillette ad itself wasn't bad, but the PNG statement was. I agree with that. I think I think I think it did stir up a a lot of anger and hatred, that Gillette ad, and and it had like six to one dislikes to likes for for a few days, and there were lots of people who just hated it because how dare they tell men that sometimes they can get things wrong. And uh, you know, I'm here to tell you. Um sometimes men can get things wrong. Um But you know, when when someone accuses you of toxic masculinity, um you could you could just say, Yeah, but what about toxic femininity? And you know, okay, right? Sure. Or you could say, what about healthy masculinity? And you're like, yeah, yeah, okay, fine. There is healthy masculinity too. If there's toxic masculinity, there must be healthy masculinity, right? Um but then like surely a better response is to just own whatever is true about toxic masculinity, and there is lots to own about, you know, men getting things wrong, and then try to live out healthy masculinity, whatever whatever that is, rather than just point the finger at everybody else and feel feel better about yourself because somebody else is worse.
SPEAKER_02Thing is, I I and and it's not it's never gonna happen now because the moment's past I would like to have seen the advert before I heard about it, in the sense of so the first time I was aware of the advert was it posted with a kind of headline of like, you know, Gillette takes down toxic masculinity or something, blah blah blah. You know, anti men advert. And of course, then as soon as you you're already going into it yeah yeah hypersensitive with stuff in there in your head about what this is about.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And once you when you're going with that you can be you can look at it and go, oh yeah, it's totally just having a go at men. But the thing is if you'd if you'd s if you'd not had that context, you g you would easily have just watched it and be like, hmm, yeah, men should be good people. That would be good, wouldn't it?
SPEAKER_03Like you know And buy more razors.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Buy more razors. Yeah. Again, Gillette. I mean we don't care what you do really so Gillette buy more razors please.
SPEAKER_03Make a decent razor that's all we are that's really all you're called on to do. Make a decent razor. It's like Martin Luther when he was like you know what what does vocation mean? Like he he he would talk about like people would would say well how do I be a Christian cobbler? I'm a cobbler. How do I be a Christian cobbler? And he was like you don't become a Christian cobbler by putting a cross on the sole of every shoe. What? He said just do a good job. Right? Yeah and that's but isn't it isn't it interesting that that now razor manufacturers are more religious than Martin Luther. Right? Because they're they're putting their little signs on things. Yeah. Right? And like like religious people would just say Gillette you know how you can serve people and serve the community just make the best razor you can make to the glory of God. That's fine. You don't need to preach it.
SPEAKER_02Even even Christian razor producers, I don't need them to preach it but people would always say don't they like well can you you know keep your politics and your religion to yourself that's what people's attitude is but yet somehow when celebrities or companies do it we're like oh yeah we'll have some of that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah yeah be more cynical that's uh that's the upshot of all this so um you know so to bring things back to the March for life right so isn't it interesting it's the total the whole thing's being hijacked by all these shame storms and the Twitch fork mobs um so that you can't even find out what the March for Life is about. Not even when you Google it. Like usually usually you're like okay the mainstream media is not going to tell me but at least I can find it on the internet. No you can't actually it's buried. But uh we thought we'd take the opportunity of uh showing uh uh part of an interview that I did with uh Dave Brennan um last week from Brefos and uh Brefos is uh a pro-life charity that's really trying to get the church on board with um defending the rights of the unborn and uh I I I thought one of the mo most fruitful parts of the interview and you can definitely go and go and check out the whole thing it's uh on YouTube it was on YouTube last night it'll be on Facebook tonight uh but one of the most helpful bits was I I just asked him a few kind of devil's advocate questions. Can you can you give me um some straightforward answers to some of these questions that Pro Choices will often ask uh about the topic and I thought he gave some some real wisdom. So let's let's have a look at uh uh Dave Brennan uh Dave Brennan from Brefos. What would you say to let me let me sort of play devil's advocate and ask you questions that that sometimes I I'm asked if if you if there's a a um let's say a fertility clinic burning to the ground and in one room there are let's say a hundred frozen embryos and in another room there's a toddler. Yeah and you can only say you can only go into one of those doors and save people from one of those two rooms. Isn't your instinct to save the toddler rather than save the the hundred frozen embryos aren't you therefore basically implicitly saying that the unborn are not fully human.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I mean i if I were to choose between saving my own mother and a whole Indian city for for sentimental reasons uh I might choose my mother. Yes. And and one you know people may not criticise me for saving my mother. People might acknowledge you know that's natural that's you know that's your mum I understand the intuition. Yeah right and and so I mean I'm not the honest truth is I'm not sure what I would do in that situation. I I would seek to save as much human life as possible. Obviously um you know a toddler might have a better chance of surviving outside of the context of the clinic burning down than embryos I don't know but but my answer to that question doesn't change who or what they are. Yes. Just as me saving my mum isn't because those Indian that Indian city isn't packed full of human beings. Yes. And so what we need to do is is look at it objectively because human rights is not um circumstantial human rights is not attributed according to relationships, location, development we hold that human rights are intrinsic, self-evident, they don't change your right to life is your right to life.
SPEAKER_03And so you know anyone's response to that very artificial question has no bearing on on when a human being comes a human being we need to approach that scientifically as Christians we need to approach it biblically on the biblical issue um what about when somebody says okay well Thomas Aquinas he was biblical right and and he seems to think that life sort of began at at quickening is it and that's like six weeks is it something something around there and that some will say that the the modern pro-life position is actually quite novel in the in the history of the church. Is who who is right was was Thomas Aquinas the blip or are we the blip? What's going on?
SPEAKER_01I've had people put this to me and uh the question I asked in response they they were saying you know you know when does ensolment happen? You know when does the soul arrive and and that surely is the point uh from which uh human life really matters and I my response was a another question I said you know um where in the Bible is there any suggestion that you can have a living human being without a soul I don't think that's something the Bible can conceive of you know human beings have mind body soul that's what a human being is and you know we see that in uh even in um Psalm 51 um David goes as far back as conception I was sinful from the moment my mother conceived me now you need to be a person to be sinful. Right you can't just be a a bit of tissue or an organ or a person can be sinful and and J David says he was sinful from conception he was a person he he must have had a soul. So I think Psalm 51 challenges that very directly but even if we didn't have Psalm 51 just this idea because we know scientifically they're living human beings before that we we we know that you know in terms of the their DNA their DNA is is distinct from the mother distinct from the father all the information is captured at fertilization from that moment they're just developing and and at six weeks you've already got uh a heartbeat you've already got many of the organs you've already got uh the the brain waves are measurable at that point we know there's a human being in there and I just I can't imagine where someone gets the idea you can have a human being without a soul in them. Yes yep so Aquinas is wrong. Aquinas is wrong, I'm afraid or or to put it more generously um we've got science now to show that that that that that I mean quickening means coming alive. We've got evidence now of of life from fertilization scientifically that he didn't have access to and so um I've not studied him in depth but perhaps if he had access to the science we've got today maybe it would be obvious to him too.
SPEAKER_03Okay one more devil's advocate question. So um there there is this sort of moral dilemma uh sometimes known as the sort of the the the violinist kind of objection um so imagine that it's a woman who wakes up and somehow this violinist who has some kind of need for dialysis or some kind of need for to be attached to her body he is parasitic upon her and she wakes up and she's now connected to him. If she removes him from herself he will perish and die. Is she morally obligated to stay attached to him for let's say nine months um what should she do and sh and could we ever blame her if she wanted to detach that violinist from her so it's it's a really great question and analogies are fine.
SPEAKER_01It doesn't have to be identical to be valid. The question is is it an appropriate analogy um and a number of points I think it's it's actually not um firstly if I was standing on the street and a child walked past me someone else's kid and walked around the corner and something bad happened to them say they they got hit by a car people would not hold me accountable why because it's not my kid that's just a stranger um however if it was my own child say it was a three year old and say I I I w walked into a shop and just left my three year old out there you know because I need to get something sorted and and I come back and she's been abducted or something's happened to her rightly I'd be held accountable. That's negligence. It's negligence. But it's negligence because it's my own child and we all intuitively know and there's a there's a legal distinction between your your obligations to your own child, your offspring and your obligations to a stranger. And one way in which this analogy breaks down is and I mean I don't know how how people's sort of um biology is but this isn't where babies come from they aren't randomly strapped to you overnight. They're your offspring. And that leads me on to I guess a second point that the the the there's a difference in relationship you know your own child you have certain obligations a duty of care and we've established already that it's a living human being that they're already your child. You have a duty of care but but but that leads on to another point which is you know where do babies come from? They don't come out of thin air and and and yes there there is the very difficult and thankfully at least in this country very rare comparatively case of of rape you know where where it is not the product of consensual sex but the overwhelming majority is the product of consent consensual sex. That's where babies come from and so it's it's not like this this this this thing is just uh strapped you against your will nothing you did to to to to to to make that a possibility or a likelihood uh babies come from sex and so it is a baby is a natural consequence of sex which is overwhelmingly um consensual in the cases which which lead to abortion in this country um and and that would lead again to another point which is um the womb is the natural environment for a baby to develop in now the the analogy you give me the violinist is a very unnatural very strange um scenario um which you know in in today's world we can imagine it may be happening um you know science has moved on to such a to such an extent that yeah perhaps you know someone could keep someone else alive they've got a special blood type or whatever and so on so I'm not saying that couldn't exist I'm saying it's not really what pregnancy is like yes yeah that's artificial pregnancy is ever so natural it's where we all came from we all grew up in the earliest ages in that womb the the natural place and so whilst um the violinist story uh talks about an unnatural way to keep someone alive at that personal cost um pregnancy is absolutely natural and the unnatural thing to do is to break entry into the womb the place of safety and development for the for the young yeah so that was part of the great wisdom of Dave Brennan and do check out the whole video uh it's up on YouTube and will be up on Facebook native on Facebook tonight at seven o'clock tonight um so yeah I mean that that violinist um kind of uh analogy um Amy's just asked why is he a violinist?
SPEAKER_03Yeah that's not integral to the the analogy but it it it is it is really helpful for remembering it I think it was a master stroke making it a a a violinist like because you yeah it it becomes memorable at that point. But yeah let's imagine some randomer might he might play the violin and he attaches himself to you do you have any right you know responsibility towards keeping um keeping this person alive for nine months um let's say but to imagine that that's relevantly similar to your own offspring um is j just goes to show that that you you absolutely you have to you have to abort the mother child link mentally before you ever abort the child themselves.
SPEAKER_02Yeah well and and the Yeah and people talk about in that example you have the choice but to have had sex in the first place. And that's why part in the overwhelming in the large majority of cases. Yeah and which is why I mean I think maybe one of the things we can be stronger on as we think about abortion is is that it's not simply we've got to stop abortion but it's a symptom of a wider thing of the the attitude to sex isn't it? Right. Which has come um at the fall in the sixties but it you know it has grown out of that that now people don't have this thing in their heads that oh if I have sex I might have a baby. Yeah. You know whether I'm a man or a woman a baby might result from this. Yeah. But people don't have that m mental kind of connection so much. Right. Since birth control and you know that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_03Right. So it's recreation now. What children? What?
SPEAKER_02Yeah um but I mean it's I mean there's some I think Ben Shapiro mentioned it and I s and there was another video where Jordan Peterson was being interviewed and both of these women talk about like the freedom of having an abortion you know like for women to be fully free to live their lives they need to have be able to have abortions. Yeah. Which just seems so so d twisted and wrong.
SPEAKER_03Yeah so look you m you might think on today's live cast uh we've we've kind of defended a MAGA hat wearing pro-Trumper who might have said build the wall but probably didn't but we've defended we've defended that kid and we've opposed a woman's right to choose uh are we just uh right wing fanatics is that is that where we come from um and like personally like I I would say not so much um on borders but but let's let's let's push people to be consistent because on borders I I really am for the sort of free flow of people um that's been my life I've been back and forth between Australia and this country um for for most of my life I've been deported from here I don't qu you know particularly like immigration rules I don't like the building of walls I'm I'm quite pro-immigration actually I I don't hate those who have a different view but I'm quite pro-immigration myself but part of being pro-immigration is that I think we should nurture and provide a sanctuary from for the weak and marginalized. Right?
SPEAKER_02So just continue that train of thought we should provide sanctuary provision protection uh for those who want to seek refuge and the problem is that it's so you know so binary in like the states particularly is very much what yourself there also um for those listening to the podcast that was just the studio collapsing around us so so in the States you it seems really you're a Republican or a Democrat but I think I mean I don't think anyone well I don't know but we just don't really fit neatly into those categories. Yeah. You know, as you talk to people so there are things that I look at that in the States and Republican policies and go that makes sense to me. Yeah and c or m or slightly more right you know kind of political views and I go, okay, yeah. And then there are more there are democratic things and more left ways of thinking and I also go hmm yeah that appears right to me as as well. Um so uh and part of it is we we uh you know they see this kid with a Trump hat on and therefore he is the enemy. Right. He is the one who is Or he's our boy and we gotta protect and it may well be that when you sit down and talk to people one to one well it's like Russell Brand was saying the difference between the Trump supporter and the you know the uh Bernie supporter Bernie supporter is really so insignificant really on the spectrum you'll probably find you sit down and agree on a lot of things. But actually we don't do that. We we throw hate on Twitter. Yeah that's easier isn't it than having a conversation.
SPEAKER_03So the so maybe it's not as simple as left and right. Maybe there's a way of looking up and and getting a nuanced view on immigration and on abortion and you know and and it seems to me if on if on immigration you don't like the idea of making someone get over a wall before you protect them and provide for them. Then why do you make the unborn do that? Why why you know it's it seems like the you know the six inches of the birth canal is is the wall, right? And on the other side of the wall, like we don't want to know. Um we got we gotta make people, you know, leap over that wall and uh and then we'll provide provisional protection and sanctuary and refuge um it it seems to me like if if you're maybe more left leaning on immigration maybe maybe you could become more pro-life um when it comes to the rights of the unborn.
SPEAKER_02Just a thought just a thought to finish on so um great comment there from Cody just saying as American I don't think many of those who promote the wall are against immigration. I mean maybe some are for sure but they just want control over the situation an uncontrolled situation can be just as immoral especially when we consider sex trafficking which is very common along the US Southern border love the rational conversation though mates. Yeah and and and aware that in a sense we have you know like you said are we just being right wing defending a man's war? I'd like to hope that we're trying to be a bit more balanced. Yeah but because I do I I feel I feel that like I said there's things on both sides um of these it's almost as if everybody is different. We're all individuals and we're more complex than simply being called a leftist or a rightist may just be the case.
SPEAKER_03You know and may maybe it's not that God is on our side you know isn't that that great line in Joshua 5 when um Joshua's meeting the commander of the Lord's army which is Jesus by the way you know the the preincarnate Christ and he says to he he says to the Lord he says um are you with us or are you with our enemies and he says no it's just perfect response yeah well done Lord that's the perfect response are you with are you with our enemies or are you with us? Yeah Jesus Jesus is like no there you go there we go gonna finish on a negative people uh the word the word from the Lord is no but I think that gives hope to us all um brilliant so uh someone's just asked about the Andrew Wilson interview stay tuned next week uh we have an interview with uh Andrew Wilson where I uh talk with him about his new book Spirit and Sacrament uh an invitation to eucharistic you no eupacharismatic worship eupharismatic euphorismatic it's a neologismanteau do you see what he's done yeah so uh I I loved my chat with Andrew Wilson and uh he's always good value Andrew so he's brilliant and he we got him in the studio as well which is great um uh because you get you get uh so much more back and forth with that. So stay tuned next week for that but uh so Dave Brennan interview will go out tonight. Yep you can pick that up the monologue um will go out soonish some point this afternoon hopefully this afternoon before we've all forgotten internet willing yeah yeah um and do get do get sharing that around YouTube in particular um because it's the sort of thing where people fall down a YouTube hole and they might just make their way towards uh a video which has a bit of Christian content in it so so please do uh get sharing that. Like us and subscribe us on YouTube um like the page on Facebook.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_03And uh stay tuned for the podcast on Friday. Yes. And if you do want to support us here at Speak Life uh we really appreciate that we we live off your generosity so uh you can go to speaklife.org.uk slash give and there's plenty of ways to give tax efficiently there too. Absolutely great well thank you everybody for coming along and uh we'll see you all again next week. Yeah hopefully so take care all bye bye