The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_04Hello.
SPEAKER_06Hello. Welcome to the live cast. Yes, indeed, hopefully. Yes. Do give us a shout if you are on Facebook and uh can comment and say hello. We love to hear comments from viewers, especially today, because we're we're talking about uh politics and left and right. Ah yes.
SPEAKER_04And a good and in no way divisive topic.
SPEAKER_06No, no, even the way that we frame it, left and right.
SPEAKER_04You know, you're either on this side or that side. That's right.
SPEAKER_06You're with us and the good people, or you're over with scumbags.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_06That's that's the way we're gonna we're gonna frame things for you. So because we're so helpfully uh uniting as a force, we believe. Uh speak life. I'm Glenn Scrivener, by the way. Hello. And uh that's um what's his face? You know, um The Feasonator.
SPEAKER_04The Feasanator, yeah, that's what they call me. Sent from the future too.
SPEAKER_06Paul Feasy. Um one of Crobra's finest. Yeah. And uh we haven't got a monologue for you uh today, sorry about that. But um pretty much all the monologues we ever do uh on this kind of subject, actually. Um I've I've I've done quite a few monologues about the issue of left and right, so I remember one about um uh the power of the sword, you know, in the States the power of the sword is the power of the gun. And so um the NRA is an an expression of the power of the sword in the in the States. Whereas in the UK, the NHS is an example of the sword and the state, and uh we'll be thinking about all those sorts of things. Um Roger Marshall says hello, hello Roger Marshall. Ian McCarthy says good afternoon. Ben Virgo says Glenn's on the right.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_06As far as I'm concerned, I'm on the left here. So I don't know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we flip this image round.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. So yeah, so I will why don't why don't I why don't I argue the right the right wing case? You argue the left wing case. Should we do that? As we go. That may be difficult. Come on then. Let's give it a go. Steel steel man. Should we steel man? So what am I I'm the left. I'm the left.
SPEAKER_04You said you were the right.
SPEAKER_06I'm on the right, so I'll be I'll I'm on their right. I'm on my left. I'm on their right.
SPEAKER_04Right, so I think whatever it is, we're both desperately confused wherever we are.
SPEAKER_06So does anyone know why we're talking about this yet? We haven't really interested. Probably not, no. Uh, steeped in it. So last night uh we did a video where I discussed uh Candace Owens' um interview with Russell Brand. Russell Brand had Candace Owens uh and Candace Owens on his show, and it was a tremendous two hours of sparky, lively, fiery, fun debate.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's a proper laugh. It's a proper laugh. It's great fun. Yes. They both have completely opposing views on things. Well, not well, not necessarily entirely. Sometimes there's some common ground, um, and sometimes I think they're speaking the same language, but mostly I I don't think Russell necessarily thinks they're speaking the same language. Sometimes Candace kind of says we are saying the same thing here. Yes. Um yeah, it's great fun.
SPEAKER_06Russell changes sides uh quite often without realizing in the same sense. You know, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_04Is he an anarchist? Is he a socialist? Right. You know, yeah, yeah. Does he want the government to intervene, or does he want the government to disappear entirely? Yes.
SPEAKER_06And I think that's one of the limitations of the left-right spectrum, as though that's captures the entirety of politics. Is that actually on the left you could be an anarchist or a socialist, and actually those two options are really miles apart. And they have vastly different views of the state and the scope of the state and things like that. So so even as we start talking about left and right, um, we are very aware that there are all sorts of other spectra. Did you notice that I used the correct plural there? Spectra, not spectrums. Um only proles say spectrums. I say spectra.
SPEAKER_04They're the baddies in James Bond, aren't they? Spectrum.
SPEAKER_06Spectra, yeah. And wasn't it a computer? Wasn't there was there a Commodore 64? No, there was a spectrum. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um there are many different spectra people. There's multiple spectrum tri. So there is there's not just left-right, but there's also globalists versus nationalists. There's also there's also people who think they're from everywhere and people who think they're from somewhere. You know, globalist and nationalist, or or there's authoritarian and non-authoritarian, uh, there's populist, non-populist, there's all sorts of different axes that people could line up on. Um so we're very aware that left. Axi, maybe Axes, I think. I'm sure you're right. I'm nailing the plurals today. I'm nailing them. Um So there yeah, there are all sorts of um different spectra that people can line up on, and left and right uh is quite a limiting one. And actually what some people think of as left and what some people think of as as right will change depending on the culture that you're in. So that you know, you you might think of yourself as, you know, on the right in the UK, and like an American might look at you and call you a communist, right? Sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Go back to Moscow. Basically, from my understanding, if you if you think the NHS is good, to an American, you're basically a communist.
SPEAKER_06Socialized health care.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, totally. Right. But then Pete doesn't Jordan Peterson talk about he he said if you're on like far he talks about the left, he talks about those on the far left. He says, even if you are kind of just centre left, to those on the far left, you may as well be an extreme right winger. Yes. You know, so so anyone slightly further the other way than you is miles the other way as far as you're concerned. Yes. So they don't see that distinction. And Brand actually, he says, doesn't he, that between a lot of these positions, he said, you know, whether you're on the left or the right, he sees them as being much of a muchness. Right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and he says, really, there's the differences between them are so minimal.
SPEAKER_06And I think it's true, and especially if you try to think about it as pure ideology, if you just have a pure ideology about the scope of the state or the place of the individual in politics and that kind of thing. You could get two people going hammering tongues at one another at a debate. You like um imagine a debate between Turning Points USA and you know some speaker from the Young Turks or something on a campus in the States, and they could be going at one another, hammering tongs about, you know, don't tread on me, and no, we're all socially constructed, and and back and forth it could go. But actually they will leave that debate and they will lead identical lives. You know, they will both be watching the same programs on on Netflix, they will be both shopping in the in the same places, their their whole world will be constructed in almost identical ways, and and their lifestyles will not alter a bit. But they think they are on totally opposite you know sides of the spectrum.
SPEAKER_04It's a bit like that old there's a joke, isn't it, about the the two Baptists, isn't it, who meet on the bridge, and he's like, What kind of Baptist are you? and they're the same and they keep going down this list and they get to the last one, he's you know, oh, Reformed Baptist of what year? And he says, Oh, this one is like a dying heretic pushes him off. You know, you know, it's like the smallest difference.
SPEAKER_06Right. And when it comes down to ideology, isn't it interesting that you know we we think that left and right is this massive like divide, and yet we live similar lifestyles. Whereas, like, I I would say that the truly different, those who are truly living radically according to their ideology, would would be, you know, various conservative religious communities who buck, you know, the trend of you know modern life. Or you would think about you know a a vegan or an environmentalist who has taken like radical steps to alter the way they live in accordance with their ideology, and then at that stage you're talking about proper differences. Yeah. But I think Russell's point when he says that actually between Breitbart and MS MSNBC they're all part of the same system, I think he's pointing to that kind of truth, that actually you might have this ideology about the place of the individual in society, but if it if it doesn't make a difference to your entire spiritual outlook on life and the way that you actually live, what's the point of it?
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_06So as as an introduction, um Jonathan Dunn says, Hi, Glenn. Hello, Jonathan. And he says, uh libertarian. I'm here too. Yeah. It's all right. We have history though. We have history. We've done we've done a YouTube chat, you see. Oh, I see. Fair enough. Fair enough. Let you off this time. Fair enough. But uh yes. Um glad to see you on here. He says libertarian is the antonym to authoritarian. Yeah, and and and obviously when you when you say sort of left and right, you know, libertarians or classical liberals kind of think, you know, they sort of stand above the fray. Um and we'll we'll think about libertarians in a minute, and we'll think about anarchists as well, um, who aren't necessarily captured by this this uh little heuristic, shall we call it, of left and right. But um here we go. Should we should we dive in and have a look at um the beginning of last night's video and uh introduce you to Candace Owens and Russell Brand in case you don't know who they are? Here we go. Russell Brand and Candace Owens discussing left and right in politics was everything you might have hoped for. Uh in a word, it was Sparky. Uh, but I think Sparky in the right kind of way. Russell was on his cheeky chappy Cockney Geezer charm offensive, and Candace did her fiery Take No Prisoners Woman with Attitude thing. Uh, but actually it reminded me of uh so many of the fights that I've had uh with my sisters growing up. I used to love just sort of winding them up, and and I I think Russell plays big brother to Candace's little sis, and that approach beautifully handles the situation, and it takes what could have been purely oppositional into a really fruitful uh conversational context. So I thought Russell Brand did a brilliant job in this interview. Um therefore, instead of this, like when Candace debated the left-winger Eric Michael Dyson, you gotta be anything, what you've said here. So now what happens to black American happens to you. So black people are reduced to what can you instead it was like this.
SPEAKER_02We're not leaving until we agree on absolutely everything can be. I have you in a mega hat. I'm wearing it already, but just in damn my trousers.
SPEAKER_06Very nice. There were so many funny moments, and well done, Russell, for making this a truly enjoyable and I'm gonna say it again. Sparky conversation. Sparky. You like that word. You used it a few times last night, didn't you? Yeah. Fiery and fun. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_04It was good fun. It's a laugh, it was an enjoyable thing to watch, I think.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, and and I think because I think because of Russell. I think I think if it was if it was if it was Candace's show on Candace's terms, I think that'd be fun, but not quite as much as as Russell had.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well he's quite off the wall, isn't he? He's impish. Yeah, isn't he? Yes. I know it's I I quite like Russell Brand. I mean I know a lot of people who who just slam him. Yeah. Um but I think I I do I do like him.
SPEAKER_06I like I I I've come to like him uh a lot, especially since reading Recovery, his book about the Twelve Steps. So um as we'll get into he he is a recovering addict, so crack and heroine, and and he um he's been almost like fifteen years clean, something like that. So um so but the twelve steps have been a massive thing in his life. And the twelve steps are obviously incredibly Christian. They founded by two guys in the basement of a church in New York, and um, you know, it it begins by saying, you know, step one is we we came to see that our lives were unmanageable and that we had no power over ourselves and we, you know, we gave ourselves up to a higher power and all that kind of stuff. So it's kind of the the Christian the the Christian shape to it is like front and center. The Christian name is kind of anonymized. You yeah, you you deal with a higher higher power, you don't really deal with Jesus.
SPEAKER_08Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06But Russell is is like into his Bible, he reads his Bible, praise, praise to Jesus, praise the Lord's Prayer. Um in in the interview with Candace Owens, he he says, you know, remember what our Lord said. Yeah. You know, forgive them, Father, they don't know what they're doing. And infinite love, the infinite love of our Lord, you know. So um he's really he's really interesting, and he's been on a journey. Um and and I think you know one of the things I do in the video last night is sort of take people through the prodigal son. The prodigal son is a little bit it's a little bit like left wing and right wing, you know. You've got you've got these two children, one of them is um yeah, one of them says, Don't tell me what to do ethically, right? And runs off and and you know, has fun, gets lost. Um, he thinks life is a blast and actually ends up in a pigsty and he needs redeeming and he needs to be saved. Um and then the older brother, um, you know, ethically speaking, you know, he's the good guy and he's the the hard worker and he's all about respect and tradition and authority, and uh and he remains at home and he remains furious that the younger brother has been welcomed by the father. And so I I I do see a similarity between left and right there in terms of younger brother left and older brother right, and I do see a definitely a similarity personality-wise between Russell Brand Um who definitely did, you know.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, he's definitely the prodigal who's definitely the prodigal.
SPEAKER_06And who has discovered spirituality and has discovered, you know, um something that has delivered him from the pit.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, something out he he certainly thinks there needs to be something outside of him that brings him back.
SPEAKER_06Right, right. Whereas Candace um very much self-help.
SPEAKER_04Um she's very much got the an attitude, or she she says a few things through it, doesn't she, about how she's kind of self-made and that she got out there herself and I helped myself, that kind of thing. Which you know, we were talking about earlier and saying, you know, that there's there's an element of truth to that, obviously, and that she's she's worked hard to get where she is, but no one is completely self-made. That's a complete nonsense, isn't it? Right. I think that no one ever gave you a break, no one ever helped you, that you know what you never went to school, no one ever taught you anything, you know, all those kind of things. Yeah, everything plays in. The idea that you're this autonomous island away from everything is a complete fairy tale, really, isn't it?
SPEAKER_06Right, right. But we'll see that if that's the world that you live in, then if you're on the right, you start to uh raise up the individual, and that's your big thing, and if you're on the left you sort of raise up the collective and the community and society and government and the state, and um and and so we'll we'll we'll think about how um personality types really play into where you line up left or right. And actually um uh I've uh got this Peterson clip where he talks about temperament. Um and it it it is really interesting to think that while you might imagine that your political ideology is really thought through from first principles because, you know, you've read widely in political philosophy, no, it's it's uh it largely goes toward your temperament. And uh Peterson will explain how your temperament kind of nudges you towards left or right wing.
SPEAKER_00If you're if you're if you're not a bit of your political preference is determined by your biological temperament. It's strongly influenced. So if you're a creative type who's kind of disorderly, then you're likely to be on the liberal left end of the distribution.
SPEAKER_06And if you're a non-creative type who's orderly and and especially if you're orderly, then you tend to be on the right wing end of so if you are orderly and you are um not open in in person in personality terms, you're on the right. If you are disorderly, if you're not orderly, but you are open and a creative type, then you tend to you tend to skew left. Um and there's all sorts of other things that that you know this is not to say that everybody who is you know male goes right, but you know, there are more men who go right than women, and there's more women than men who go left. Sure. The older you get, the the further to the right you tend to go, you know, and and this is not to say, you know, my my great-grandfather was as left as he was a he was a communist and blah blah blah. You know, we understand, but it is interesting that that personality type really does you know play into this kind of stuff. And I think that's very worth being aware of, especially in a culture where we are about to tear each other apart over politics. Um just to realise that that actually your brain was kind of probably wired the way that you think is the right way. You know?
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Um and it was yeah. And and and therefore let's cut each other some slack. Um and actually maybe it's the case that we need one another, right? Maybe we need people who are open on the left, and maybe we need people who are orderly on the right. And maybe the people who are open are the ones who have the great entrepreneurial ideas, and maybe the people on the right actually help them to put it into and make it happen and make it sustainable.
SPEAKER_04That's funny, you know. I can think of a situation and I will not name any names. Um I have a fear of identification, but I can totally think of some people I know um and have spent time with who are who come up with amazing ideas, and then you say, Thank you very much, please please step away from the ideas now and and let us detail people do this, okay? It's probably not good if you do this.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, I I totally totally resonate with that. Um so it it is worth thinking that that temperament plays a big part in this. Um and so should we have a look at uh a little table? I've I've done up a couple of tables about left and right that we might be able to talk through.
SPEAKER_04Hopefully, this is the right one first. Is it that one? That one. Right. Brilliant.
SPEAKER_06So um I don't know if you know the you know the sort of the etymology of left and right. Like why do we start thinking of of things in in these terms? And back in the French Revolution, um, those who are to the left of the king were for revolution, and those who are to the right were for the monarchy. Um and so it's come to mean that those on the left are far more for change, and those on the right are far more for the status quo. Um and as soon as you say that, you're like, well, who's right? Who's right? Is it always right to change, or is it always right to keep things like in at the status quo? Um and the answer is like there's there's no one size fits all answer. So please can we stop hunkering down and you know, insisting that our our side is right. Um we've got a great quote from um uh a great clip from uh Jordan Peterson who sort of talks about there is a benefit to being on the right if you don't know what's if you don't know what you're doing, if you don't know how the world operates, and if you have very little just stay the same. Just say the same. So yeah, he he says this in a in a recent debate from last year.
SPEAKER_08Okay.
SPEAKER_00If you're if you're if you're not uh exceptionally cognitively astute, you should be traditional and conservative. Because if you are, if you can't think well, you're going to think badly, and if you think badly, you're going to fall into trouble. And so it is definitely the case, and this has been an what would you call a cliche of political belief for a long time. Uh, if you're not very smart, it's better to be conservative. Because then you do what everyone else does. And generally speaking, doing what everyone else does is the path of least error moving forward. Now that doesn't mean that rationality is unnecessary anymore. It doesn't mean that either, right, precisely. It doesn't mean that's a good idea. Very important caveat.
SPEAKER_06So it kind of it goes to the point of what is the right thing to do in anyone's situation. And and very often, the right thing to do is let's let's keep things ticking along. Um but also systems can become tyrannical, and systems can break down and things need to change and things need to progress.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean we've all rallied against the kind of cry of this is the way it's always been, you know. Right. Uh other times. Right. Yeah, it's good to maintain that status quo, isn't it?
SPEAKER_06So left and right, uh perhaps we need each other, right? We certainly need um uh some measure of conservatism and some measure of progress. We always need that um moving forward. So we are not enemies of one another. Um the next thing on the the table is uh a sense of where you find your identity. Um do you find your identity in the one, right? In in a kind of a unity with loads of others that you all share this one um this oneness with, or do you find your identity in being um different, distinct, particular? Um so uh that that kind of works itself out as on on the left you have a more social identity that is more to do with maybe your class or your ethnicity or um gender or um you you identify with a collective um and on the right you identify as an individual, right? Um and actually what's interesting about that is going back in the history of philosophy, that this has almost been like the most debated question in two and a half thousand years of of philosophy is what is most ultimate, the one or the many? Um are we are we all kind of really the same? And actually all our differences are just surface level? Or are we actually really, really different from one another? And any attempt to corral us into a a a greater identity is is kind of forcing us against our our temperament. And and again, like what is the answer to that? You know, is it is it that we are one or is it that we are distinct individuals?
SPEAKER_04And you're like, you know, kind of yes, you know. Like what uh Well that's that's the thing, is as you're kind of going through those and saying, you know, on the left it's more as as the the the group and on the right more the individual. And I mean you kind of think, yeah, but i it maybe comes back to brand stuff about how much difference is there really, because when I think more about the left, I tend to think of those who who are more caught up in the individual, whereas the right seems to me more let's think about uh the social whole, you know, like the society as a whole, whereas the left is more about individual, like express yourself as an individual. And so although there is that, but but within that there is the there are those groups. There are the groups uh you know, I'm part of this community or that community, the vegan community or whatever it is, but it seems like there's a huge emphasis on the individual doing what they want.
SPEAKER_06Yes.
SPEAKER_04So it's hard to like how far apart are they? Yes, really.
SPEAKER_06Yes. Yeah, yeah, not very not very, but we kind we kind of we kind of need each other, and we need we need the one and the many, and um we so the one one of my favourite books like ever is Colin Gutton's book, The One, the Three and the Many. And he kinda he kind of talks about the history of Western philosophy as the history of this this debate between are we all one or are we all distinct and individual, the many. Um and he kind of says the whole way along, you know what, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is is this answer that's been neglected. And when we when we depart from Trinitarian theology, we either skew one way or the other. We either kind of smush each other together in a unity that doesn't really work, or um, we all scatter apart as these individuals. Um but actually in the Trinity you've got particular distinct persons who are united together in love. And actually, with the triune God, he he offers you a community in the church that's kind of modelled on his own way of being, in which we are distinct, particular, you know, persons who actually find our identity not by insisting on our own independence, but by actually living for others in you know, and so you know, I I I am one part of I'm one member in a body, and you're one member in the body, and we need one another, but we're distinct members of the body, but we're united together and and so I so again I I think you know uh is the one more important? Is the distinction more important? Actually, yes, but here is the gospel, and the and the gospel might have an answer to the the the issue of the one and the many. Um to the next one. Next table. The next uh uh The next one on the table. Next one on the table. Um so and this is part part of what you were kind of referring to there, um, on the left and on the right, because the left and the right say different things when it comes to ethics or economics. So on the left, on the issue of ethics, the left tends to say, leave me alone. I'll do what I want to do. Right, which is what the younger brother says, right? But on economics, they say let's honour the community.
unknownSure.
SPEAKER_06Um we're all in this together and let's make sure we have a safety net. Yep. So on ethics they say leave me alone. On the on economics they say honor the community. And the right flips that around, and the right says, on ethics, let's honor the community. Um but on economics they say leave me alone. You know, don't tread on me. Um, which is you know, in in the American Revolution, as they fought against the Brits, um, the Americans, you know, flew the flag that that's um that said, Don't tread on me, right? Leave me, leave me the heck alone. Um and that's that's you know a a a typical kind of right-wing, right wing sentiments. Um and of course libertarians just say, leave me alone on all things, you know, as do as do anarchists. Um But again, there is a there's a time when, actually ethically, I I don't want the community to have its nose in all my business all the time. Right? Um and as I form my my family in in an ethical way, I want her to be formed for the community. And so that the community has a role, but it doesn't have every role. And and and the same way with economics, you know, leave me the heck alone to get on with what I want to get on with, but why shouldn't I pay for roads and why shouldn't I pay for you know education and why why shouldn't I pay for for these sorts of things? So again, these are emphases that right and left bring. Um hopefully they can be mutually informing and mutually beneficial, you would hope. Um but we're not like that. We're tribal people, aren't we? We're tribal, and we are right and they are wrong, and so it leads to punch-ups. Um so that's on sort of ethics and and economics. Um but I think on on the next table, um this is where it gets really interesting and where things have really um developed. I think on the left the victim is sacrosanct, and on the right, the achiever is sacrosanct. Okay. Um and what I mean by that is on the on the left, um if if it's all about um society has formed me and my my identity is really found in in the greater whole, um, then you can look around at society and you can see that some people are doing better than others and and there's inequality, and um so like whose fault is it that someone is not doing as well? Um someone on the right will say it's the individual's fault, right? And if you're an if you're an individualist, then you say, well, you either pull yourself up by your bootstraps or you're a loser. Um on the right, though, they say, Oh no, but I'm a victim of larger forces and systemic injustice and all that kind of stuff. And so there is there is the victim is sacrosanct on the left. Um and we'll we'll see a clip in a second of of Candace Owens talking about the oppression Olympics. Yeah. Um where we all try to compete with one another as the most oppressed. Whereas on the right, it's it's that um well forget about systems, there's there's no systemic injustice, it's just down to you, and if you haven't pulled yourself up by your by your bootstraps, it's on you, buddy. Um and and both of them are mythologies, I think. And both of them are, you know, get things wrong. Yeah. But I think we are we are seeing the oppression Olympics a lot these days, don't you think? Oh yeah, definitely. The claiming of victim status um in all things. But actually I I I do think that that is very much a Christian legacy that we've given to the West. Um that actually, you know, before Christianity hit, um, everyone in the first century was wandering around saying, you know, along with Russell Crowe and The Gladiator, you know, strength and honor, strength and honor, strength and honor. That's what you build your society on. That's what that's what every society ever has been built on. And then Christianity comes along and we've got a victim at the heart of it. Like literally, Jesus is is the victim. Like when John the Baptist says, Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, he is a sacrificial victim. And the word the word victim kind of you know it's used in the the language of the cult and the and the sacrifice, that the the the lamb was the victim that died instead of you. Um and so we've got a victim at the heart of our you know gospel. And actually, Christians have always stood up therefore for the little guy and for the marginalized and the oppressed and the victims, um, in a way that other cultures just really didn't. And Nietzsche hated that. Nietzsche was like, ah, this you know slave religion of Christianity, they're always standing up for the little guy. You should let the little guy perish, for goodness sakes, and we need to be these ubermensch, these supermen who rise above the vic you know, and but Christianity's always been about victims, and so like um so we we introduced that to Western culture, but now it's just become this thing all by itself, that the victim is to be sacrosanct and protected and lifted up and and um divorced from any other consideration. And one of the chief other considerations you should have is that, you know, um let's let's properly identify who really are victims, and let's not do it according to just a very narrow range of of attributes like your race and gender and sexuality. Yeah. Um maybe that maybe there are other uh victims of oppression. And and maybe it's important, rather than for me to compete to try to be the victim, maybe it's important for me to actually be the compassionate, strong, wise person who can help true victims. But if I'm always trying to be the victim, then like no one gets ahead in society. Sure. But if I'm trying to be, you know, the sort of strong person who wants to help the victim, that that starts starts to be a society that can that can flourish. But should we should we see Candace Owens lay her boot into the oppression Olympics? Yeah, we'll give it a go. Oh, let's let's see if the volume works on this. Let's see.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_02We must look for a better solution. I don't know if you do. You believe in God, right?
SPEAKER_01And what is a belief in God if it's not missing out, not working, volume's not coming through.
SPEAKER_06Come on, do your best, Candace Someone's impression. Go on. Go on. What was she saying?
SPEAKER_04Because there's lots of cr crazy people out there, and it'll be all over the internet before I know it. Like she wouldn't mind. Straight white man culturally black woman. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Like the one woman who wouldn't mind would be Candice Someone's love. That's true, that's true.
SPEAKER_04I mean the brand, doesn't he? Apologize at some point for calling her love. And she's like, what kind of person would look at this discussion and like pull out that that you called me love? Seriously. Yeah. She's like people who can't even bear someone to hold open doors for them, you know. Right.
SPEAKER_06Right, right, right, right. So, but okay, in in your in your in your own words then, uh Paul, what what is the oppression Olympics?
SPEAKER_04The oppression Olympics, so it's this idea. So she says, like, well, to Rand, uh, here's this this oppression Olympics. So the it goes like this, you know, well, he's a bloke, she's a woman. Uh as a woman, I'm more oppressed than you, so therefore I'm one up, you know, I'm more of a victim than one nil. Ding. And then she's like, and I'm also black, and you're white, so ding. Two nil. You know, two nil, yeah, whatever. And this is I suppose she says, I think the I suppose the most I could be if I was a kind of uh a female, black, disabled, gay woman, you know, female and woman are the same thing, I agree. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Perhaps trans woman then.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's the only one she didn't mention, you know, that would have really trumped kind of everything. Yeah. Um so she says, you know, so there you go. There, how am I the uh you're the ultimate victim if you can keep playing all these cards out and say, ah, but look, I'm also a part of this oppressed group, and I'm part of this oppressed group, and so on and so forth. Yes. Um and there is an element of that in the world, isn't there? Right. I would say an element. There's yeah, I mean there's a massive amount of it at the moment. And she's very much she pushes against that narrative. Um so she's fascinating when she talks about race itself because she just kind of says, like, well, you know, she's saying she says black people in America have been sold a a kind of lie, really, that they're that you know, that they are now this still this oppressed group. Um and she says basically you're being kept down by that kind of thing. Um and it's worth hearing what she says on it, you know, it's fascinating to see. I mean what she what's the conversation she talks about where she says um so people get angry with her for saying that uh the guardian got angry with her for saying that black people don't need handouts. Right. And um but that she and she was saying, so the guardian are angry with me because I'm saying black people can do it by themselves and black people aren't oppressed. And she's so yet they're so what they're implying is no black people can't do it by themselves and they do need handouts. Yes. And she's saying, and I'm the racist, supposedly. Right. Right, right. Um so it's fascinating. And it just I thought I was telling you earlier about a conversation I'd seen her in um on a on a news programme and uh the presenter asked her about was she worried about representation of black people in the White House? And she was like, Why would you ask me about that? Or would you ask me about that? Why would you ask me? Right. She's like, Why she's like, Are you worried about the representation of white people in the White House? You know, like you know, it's such a why'd you ask me a question about race simply because I'm black? Is it because I was black? Yeah. Yeah. And this woman gets really het up about it. She's like, Oh, um, you know, you're calling me a racist. She's like, I'm not s I didn't think so that you put those words, you know, those words came out of your mouth, and like so it's fascinating to behold, and I I think she she's an interesting character in that respect.
SPEAKER_06And then I mean Russell comes back at it and he and he does say, Well, look, you know, aren't there systemic injustices and aren't aren't there obstacles in the way of people if they do happen to be a woman in black and lesbian and all all these sorts of things? And and you know, and I and I think on on the left they are much more comfortable with calling out systemic sin and endemic sin and and society-wide sin and calling whole systems to repentance, whereas those on the on the right are, well, we we we label individual sins. And if an in if an individual has broken the law, then you bring bring the full weight of the law down on that sucker and they're going down, right? But to but but how do you hold a system to account, right?
SPEAKER_04And so uh well that's that's Shapiro's thing, isn't it? So he always says, like, show me an instance of X, Y, or Z, and I will fight you, uh you know, I'll fight fight that cause with you. Yes. But if you just say to me, you know, there is this institutionalized X whatever it might be, yeah. He said, You you can't what do you do? Right. You know, show me specific cases and we can take down specific cases.
SPEAKER_06Right. Right. Um and but I do think they I do think both sides um have a point. Ian McCarthy has said lost broadcast. Well, if anyone else has lost broadcast, you won't be able to tell me that you've lost broadcast. I I realise that now. But uh I mean we're still having fun. Hope it's all okay for you, Ian. But I think both sides I think both sides have a point. Um I I think there are surely there's such a thing as let's let's say in conservative evangelical churches, let's imagine that there is a massive bias towards middle class people. Let's imagine. Hang on.
SPEAKER_04Imagine I will put myself in that position for a second. Ian is back.
SPEAKER_06I'm glad you're back, Ian. And Bill Lavelle, all the way from the US, still coming through here in the US. Over his coffee in the morning. It is, it is. I bet it's got a 50-inch screen to watch it on. Everything's bigger in Texas. Yeah, yeah. Everything's bigger in Texas. Yeah, yeah, very fuzzy. Um But okay, let's imagine you live in a world in which there are churches that are you know overwhelmingly middle class. Okay. And let's say that you know, working class people don't feel like they could fit or belong. And um but it's not anything you can't point to any particular middle class individual in any of those churches. They're not in a sense, they're not doing any individual thing wrong. But maybe there are systems in place that make people feel underrepresented and therefore like they don't belong, and th therefore there might be some kind of cultural repositioning of things that need to happen. And maybe in the state, you know, and if church is divided on class grounds in in England, it's it's divided on racial grounds in the states a lot more. Maybe there are things, and it's not that any individual is doing something racist in a church, but maybe there are systems in place that, you know, a black person comes into a white church and they don't see any other people who look like them, and they therefore don't feel like they belong, and there might just be cultural things that and so, you know. Yeah. And so the left is very sensitive to that, mm-hmm and I think it's important to be sensitive to that, just as it's important to be sensitive to to the individual sins and and but I th I there's there's definitely that thing of how much can you do about it.
SPEAKER_04Right. To some extent.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_04No, i I mean, on different things. You would say that as a white cisgendered privileged man. But what I mean is so so putting it in the church context, so you're saying where people aren't doing anything inherently wrong, but that's just the way I are. So so I would say like when I first started working like where I was at All Saints and I was moving into this kind of there was this conservative evangelical circle, not specifically at All Saints, but wider than that when you'd go to things, I discovered that lots of conservative evangelicals who seem to be in the circles I was getting pushed around, um were Oxbridge and Cambridge privately educated. Right. And it felt like a bit of an old boys' club. Right. And I certainly I mean they weren't doing anything wrong. Right. Um but I was just like Right. I didn't feel welcome in that culture. Right. I don't feel but I can't point at them and say you did this. It's just like we're we're different. This isn't my culture. Yes. Like I don't know what it is about it specifically.
SPEAKER_06But wouldn't you in that you know, so so they really do have privilege, right? You know. And so that language of privilege, is isn't it appropriate for them to be Well, you don't want to force them to use their privilege in order to serve those who don't have their privilege. But you would you would want people to be aware of it. To be aware of their privilege and to use their privilege in order to raise others up and to to limit their own freedoms in order for others to enjoy more. Um So that language that language on the left kind of makes sense in that situation, wouldn't you say?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_06I'm trying people, I'm trying to move him away from it.
SPEAKER_04It's hard to know like what what could you sp what specifically on the ground you could do. Yeah. So I mean, so so in principle, yes. Yeah. But practically, yeah. What does that look like? Yeah. That that's more difficult. Yeah. But that would differ for every situation. Yeah. Whatever so so how does the working class person or how does the middle class person what do they do in their church to make a working class person feel welcome? And and and even for me that rankles because part of me thinks like you yes, you want to make that person welcome, but another part of me wants to think like we shouldn't be thinking in terms inside of the church of here's my middle class and here's my working class, and then there's my old boys' club over there. Like so, how much do we want to adjust for those criteria when in essence we want to say there is no you know, barbarian and no scythian then you know yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um there's that odd kind of tension there.
SPEAKER_06Bringing scripture into things, Paul. Come on. We were having a great discussion.
SPEAKER_04Well, I'm on the left, so tin us down, are you? I thought I'd do something different. Bring some scripture in.
SPEAKER_06So yeah, Colossus three, that I mean that is that is important. Yeah, we uh yeah. There is no barbarian, Scythian, slave or free.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but the reality is of course there there is. Yes. That that's the that's the tension there, isn't there? Of course there are those things. Yeah. So you know, I'm aware, because where I live is predominantly middle class and it is predominantly white.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And and I have sat there and thought, like, I wonder what it's like for so and so in the congregation, who maybe is like one of the very few black people, yeah. Um or or just kind of non-white um or from another country, you know. And I kind of thought I wonder what it is. Um the person would say, Why don't you ask them? But you know um part of me is like, should I make a thing of it? You know, I don't want to make a thing of it. Yeah. In case they're like, well, it didn't even cross my mind. Yeah, like now I'm thinking, you know. But yet because in a sense it shouldn't be, you know, it shouldn't be an issue.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_06In another sense it is. But you could imagine if you if you were in charge of that church, you could imagine saying, Look, we have we have a minority of this particular ethnicity in our church and they're not feeling welcome. And when they look to the front of church, they don't see anybody like them, and they're not they're starting to feel Would you not then think, let's oh let's let's get them serving in welcome, let's get them up front. Let's make sure that the worship team, and then and and then you've got quotas. Oh my goodness. And then you're you're right.
SPEAKER_04Fifty percent of your worship. 50% of it must be from a different ethnic group.
SPEAKER_06But here's why here's why that is different from the state doing something, because church is family. Yeah. And the state is not family. No. In the church you are brothers and sisters, and within a family, it's run pretty much on communist grounds, isn't it? Like family is pretty socialist.
SPEAKER_04It's socialist because my kids are literally contributing zero. To our households. Nothing in terms of income. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, absolutely. You're being taxed a hundred percent. Bludges. But yeah, family, family is different. Families run on very different grounds from the States. Yeah. And in the States, with the State, you want a rule of law. If you're going to go on holiday this summer and you're told Will any of us be able to go anywhere anymore? We'll find out tonight. What color passports will we have? Who knows? But if you want to travel, you want to go somewhere that has a rule of law. That's very important. But you don't want to join a family that has a rule of law. No, it's yeah, it's a very different thing, isn't it? You want a rule of love, right? Which is a very different thing, and you belong to each other in very different ways than you belong to the state. And so and so it's it's not a direct parallel at all, right? To to talk about what should happen in church and what should happen. And and to expect people to use their privilege to serve others is far more appropriate in church, which is a voluntary organization in which you you're just called to the way of self-sacrifice in bonds of unbreakable love. That's not you know, I'm not in covenant with the state, you know. Um and so so they are they are very very different things. Should we just finish off uh a couple of the uh other things on this list? So whereas uh on the left the uh the state is saviour, on the right, the market is saviour. Uh do you have that? This on the table again. So yeah, on on the left, here here here are the dangers. On this uh table, here are all the dangers uh on left and right. And uh on the left, the the state is saviour. And like who can deny that when a problem comes up like in society, that people instantly think, what's the government gonna do? Yeah. You know? Yeah, absolutely. My big my big bug bear is always obesity, right? When it whenever it it can't it turns out that you know ten year olds are more obese than they've ever been, instantly we think, what's the government gonna do?
SPEAKER_04The government needs to sort this out. Tax sugar tax. A sugar tax. Sugar tax.
SPEAKER_06It'll be the sweetest of all taxes.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06It's like that's your answer to everything. We're just putting a tax. Government. What should we what should we do about obesity? I know a tax.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Just fat children who are a fat government. Yeah, government with more money. Yeah. But it's true, like no matter no matter what the question. But there that's the there is that thing there of in responsibility. So so you will find people going hammer and tongue in disagreement over this, won't you? So some people will say you you it's your individual responsibility, or like a parent, you know, whatever. Um and other people will say, Oh, it's all the adverts on the telly, you know, it's this, it's it's them out there putting you they're just victims.
SPEAKER_07Right, right, right, right, right.
SPEAKER_06Right. So some say it's the state, some say it's the market. Yeah. Is anyone is anyone pointing the finger at themselves or at the family? Right. Is is anyone like is there another unity around which we gather? And uh how how absolutely blind and blinkered of us to think that it's either the state or we are just consumers and the market should deal with this. And that those are the two idolatries. This is the state or the market, the state on the market. Yeah. And like and so where is the where is the place for the family? Where is the place for church? Um and and because we have rejected church, you know, I I think the state is a substitute church.
SPEAKER_04And that comes up in the discussion, doesn't it? That's that kind of you know th the the state is a replacement for for God in many ways. Yeah. You know, basically who do we look to in this time of dire need? The government. I mean hilariously laughable in England for us to be saying that, isn't it? But given our kind of situation.
SPEAKER_06Really? Those guys? Like Well, we don't yeah. But it is it is the the ring of power, though. It's the ring of power that gets bigger and bigger and more powerful and more powerful, and we keep putting it on different individuals. And we're like, is David Cameron worthy of wearing the ring? He's not Shukara. Well, let's let's try Teresa. Teresa will take the ring to Mordor. And then they're like, uh Boris? Would you like to No? Where's Boris? Where's Boris? Okay, Michael Hasan seen Michael go? No. Teresa's kind of nudged forwards. Where's the ring of power and is deemed, you know, yeah, not not to be a worthy bearer of the ring. But the whole the whole problem is thinking of the state as the solution in the first place. And like historically it's happened, as the church has shrunk in terms of providing hospitals and and charitable care and education. What is it that has picked up the slack?
SPEAKER_04And I think we talked about this before that I partly feel like so so I feel sometimes as as Christians that like the church has abdicated its responsibility. So like the whole welfare state growing out of those Christian values, and now there is an official welfare state, it's almost like in the church we've gone, alright, you can have that. Yeah. And so there's loads of areas in which you know you know, when we're seeing all this, you know, issues of poverty and stuff like that, or things in our area, where people even people in the church are saying, Oh, the government needs to get on this. Totally. And it's like, well, actually, maybe we should just get on it. Maybe it's the church's thing, and maybe that's part of our witness, and we've lost it by looking to the government.
SPEAKER_06Do you want to hear a controversial opinion?
SPEAKER_07Absolutely.
SPEAKER_06We're reading through Proverbs at the moment, and there's all sorts of stuff about putting a guard over your mouth and but okay, I'm taking the guard off. Okay, here's a controversial opinion. Hang on, hang on, hang on. In on Glenn. In on Glenn. Down this go. The idea that food bank picking up the slack of what the ch what what the state had been doing, the the idea that the food bank doing that is an unqualified disaster and terrible. I don't get that, right? As though as though I said it. But the i The i Yeah, the idea that the only people who should be, you know, caring for the poor is the state.
SPEAKER_04Shot's fine, Glenn.
SPEAKER_06But it's exactly what you just said.
SPEAKER_04We've enjoyed having our eleven thousand likes for a few minutes. But by everybody.
SPEAKER_05Ben Virgo said Glenn's gone centre left. Not with that comment, I haven't not with that comment. And back right. Exactly.
SPEAKER_04But no, but it's a very good thing. So we're outraged. Yes. So that that food banks uh having to exist. Yes. Saying the government should be doing that. Right. But as particularly as Christians, we should be going, well, is the Trussell Trust shouldn't we do that? Trussell. I think it's Trussell.
SPEAKER_06The Trussell Trust. Yeah. Um Christian. Through and through. Yeah. Um run out of churches mainly. Um it's Christians stepping up to care for people.
SPEAKER_04I'm just pulling this out of nowhere. Um if you were to go back, I suppose, to the first century where there was no, you know, welfare state for those who were you know the orphan and the widow and all those people, the people feeding them were the church. Totally. And I doubt they would be saying the problem is the Roman Empire should be getting off their bum and sorting this out. No, they I don't think that would have been the cry.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04I don't I doubt it would even cross their mind. I mean, obviously nothing to debate that on, but here we are now, and rather than going, hey okay, yeah, yeah. Let's do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're going government, like, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Oh, thank you. Like to hear it. Um Roger Marshall has just said, churches can do very little in terms of food banks and solidarity-oriented initiatives without local government support.
SPEAKER_04Um could could we though if we do do you think part of the because someone I I read a discussion about this and they were saying look, the church could never afford to do enough, basically. And is that because maybe like here in the West, like we're just rubbish givers? Maybe. Like financially, like we probably have more than most people in the world.
SPEAKER_06We give a lot to the government.
SPEAKER_04Well Yeah, yeah, that's true. Well, and I've heard Christians use that argument.
SPEAKER_06God only wants ten percent.
SPEAKER_04I've heard Christians use that argument I've heard Christians use that argument, actually, you know, as well, that like as a church, it's not our role to go and do these things because well now we do that, we pay the state to do it.
SPEAKER_06Right. Well, exactly.
SPEAKER_04And so we're just doubling up on it.
SPEAKER_06And it becomes enforced charity, which is a strange concept. Charity at the point of a gun. Um Yeah. Yeah, so um we've we've had a comment from Sandy Medway. Sandy Medway has flown back from New Zealand just to say no to food banks, yes to community kitchens where we share a meal and cook for each other.
SPEAKER_04When she says no to food banks, is in the sense of just none at all.
SPEAKER_06I th I I think I would soften what she's saying here in order in order to say I would prefer there to be community kitchens. Oh, I see, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Whereas instead of handing up a box of stuff and now we don't see you again. So it's a relational. It's a relational thing, yeah. Yeah, and that sounds like a and and actually I mean churches can do that to an extent, can't they? Yeah, and do do that. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And absolutely do do that.
SPEAKER_04I'm not saying you can completely replace the welfare state.
SPEAKER_03But but you know.
SPEAKER_04I think we can probably do more. But I think and what stops us doing it is often this assumption, like you say, that's the government's even as Christians we've fallen into this idea that, well, of course it's the government's role to do those things.
SPEAKER_06Right. So there's an idolatry where the state is God, the state is saviour, the state is a substitute church. Um on the other hand, the market um is thought by the rights to basically solve everything. And as long as as long as we just have untrammeled markets, then then it'll all trickle down. Trickle down.
SPEAKER_04The joys. Which, you know. Um well there's and there's truth in there. There's truth. So that comes up in the discussion, doesn't it? Absolutely. You know, Candace says Russell gets it wrong in that he thinks if someone gets rich, everyone else gets poor. And she says, well, you know, well, the guy who started Twitter, he got rich, but of course he then hired all these people, and they didn't get poorer off the back of it, and Facebook, etc. etc.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And there's true that there's truth in that as well. Um that by having a commodity that you sell and you become prosperous and your business maybe as a business, you know, it grows and you need to employ people, and you pay more back into the system, and there's a kind of thing like that, and there's a real real reality to that. But then I think trickle-down economics as well as I've I mean I've heard you know, again, Christians talk about trickle-down economics, and and I think it you have to have a a naive view of the human heart to think like these people are gonna get all the wealth and then pass it on down.
SPEAKER_06So I think there's there's elements of truth to it, but there's also and I think the the the big problem is that there are externalities to to businesses, um, and and they are things that cost the rest of society costs that are not borne by the business itself. So pollution is a is a key one. So if you have a massive factory and it's polluting the the local river, um you you need a power to come to that like business and say, You gotta clean up your acts, and here are here are these taxes, and and and these are the regulations and that kind of stuff. You need a power above the markets because the the market left to itself will cause all sorts of externalities, cause all sorts of pollution troubles and all sorts of things that get passed on uh to people without the business actually uh bearing the cost. And so the yeah, so the market can't be untrammeled, but the state please cannot be untrammelled either. Um what's the what's uh the next one on the on the table that we've got there? What do we got? So, yeah, so on the left, um the government is our church. So instead of having church, we have the state, and the state tries to do all sorts of things, and the state tries to operate as though it's a church, as though it's family, as though we belong to one another as brother and sister in that and and and and family is an inherently communist idea, right? Um and so government starts to be run along those lines. Um whereas on the right, um John uh not John Shoot Mill, um uh Adam Oh come on. Who who wrote The Wealth of Nations? Come on, man. Um Scottish, 1740, the Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith. That's Adam Smith. Uh he wrote The Wealth of Nations and and he was the first person to kind of observe free market um economies at uh at at work. Um and just seeing that if you just leave people to set their own prices and let supply and demand just determine what the price and quantities are, then actually markets kind of tend to form and it's the most it's the most efficient means of production that that history has ever known. Just just hands off, and there's some kind of invisible hand that seems to kind of uh uh order the affairs of of businesses. Um and that's what the market though the market is this incredibly powerful thing. It seems like all hail the market. All hail the market, all hail the invisible hand. And he was a Scottish Presbyterian, um uh Adam Smith, and and and you know, it kind of sounds and he he talks about providence with a capital P and that sort of thing. But the but you know, God becomes Providence becomes the invisible hand, just becomes free for all, right? And we sort of But the market s suddenly becomes God, and we we sudden we suddenly think, you know, let's just leave economic interests to themselves, and that will be best for society. Um and that kind of leads to the to the next um duality between left and right. On the left, the the cardinal sin is envy, and on the right the cardinal sin is greed. Um so we all get the on the right greed. You know, Gordon Gecko, greed is good. You know, let's From Wall Street. Did you get that reference? I have not seen it. Okay, Wall Street. Uh so back in back in the day, and um yeah, it w it was all about uh wealthy traders, and greed will get you where you want to be. Um and like, do we want to build a society on greed? No, we don't. But then on the left, the cardinal sin seems to be envy. Um you know, this really came home when I was talking to um the Occupy London protesters back in 2011, and they were all camped out around St. Paul's Cathedral, and there were there was one guy with a big placard, and um there was loads of Bible there, and all the placards had like biblical comments, and you got talking to people, and there were there were people there with Bibles, and like King James Bibles usually, and it was very, very, very interesting, people who are very firmly on the left, and and really quite sermon on the mounty, like all of them. And um Canadian crossover. We are sermon on the mounty. One, two, three, four. And um so I talked to this guy with a placard that said money is the root of all evil, and I just said, Ah, it's interesting, you know, uh the Bible never says that. And he says, No, it does, it says it in one Timothy. And I said, No, no, no. The Bible says um money is a root of all kinds of evil. Um and I kind of said, and and it's and it's interesting that um there is this heart issue about what you desire that's going on in One Timothy. We had we had a look at the verse, and and and it's about like loving money. It's it's the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. And I said, you can love money without ever having any, can you, can't you? And he had to admit, yes. Because he'd he'd just been describing the way that there he was, this unemployed guy living in a tent, um, and every morning he'd he'd look and see all these pinstriped people go going off to the city to work as bankers, and he he told me about how how how he daydreamed about their amazing lives. And I was like, Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? The love of money can be a problem even when you don't have any money. And then he started talking about, yeah, but we just need to expropriate the one percent from the from the the the wealth from the one percent. Um and I was like, Well, how do you want to expropriate it? He said, Well, it would be better if it didn't have to come to war. But if it has to come to war, it has to come to war in order to expropriate the wealth of the one percent. And you're like, what's going on there? Envy. That's a politics of envy.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And then he wants the power of the sword in order to enforce the politics of envy. Um and at that stage, I was I was at that stage I was like, that doesn't sound very Jesus y, does it? This guy was, you know, said he was a Christian.
SPEAKER_04But Well I and I think we talked a bit about this, that kind of the the blindness there of there's the one per cent, and I mean there's a there's a there's a distinct hip irony and hypocrisy in calling out the one per cent when you are probably amongst the ten percent of the most richest people. Well probably the two percent, like. Yeah, um of people in the world. Yeah. You know, and I said about when I was in that secondary school and I did say something like that to one of the tea you know, one of the classes, and one of them was absolutely outraged that I could suggest that we're rich. Right. Right. No, the rich people are over there. Right. You know, and we want to be like them and take their money.
SPEAKER_07Yes.
SPEAKER_04Um but we're the poor ones. Really?
SPEAKER_07Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Here in your nice middle class suburban area. Right. And and here is where here is where I I think there's a lack in both left and right, and and one of the one of the big lacks I think is gratitude. Like we just don't have we just don't know how good we've got it. And if you're if you're on the right and it's all about I'm a self-made individual, and I have pulled myself up my own bootstraps, and if I have anything in life, it's because I've done it as an individual. Right, where's the gratitude gonna be? You're not gonna have gratitude. But on the other hand, if you're on the left and it's all about these oppressors away from me, and I'm not getting what I ought to be getting, and there's the 1% over there, and they're you know, I I don't have what I deserve to have. Again, where's the gratitude?
SPEAKER_04Like that's part of the uh I'm not sure it's one of the twelve steps, but part of Alcoholics Anonymous is they do these gratitude lists. Came up when we were talking about, you know, pray with you know Thanksgiving. Yes and everything you do, you know, pray with Thanksgiving. Um and they would say, you know, people I know who've been through it would said they'd have weeks where people would say, like, oh, it's really rubbish, whatever, and people would say, When was the last time you did a gratitude list? And they have to write down, I think it's you know, something like they have to write down ten things they're thankful for. Yeah. And it forces them to think and go, actually, life is not as bad as I'm thinking at the moment.
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_06Um Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like three good things. There's a really interesting hashtag both on Facebook and and and Twitter, and lots of people have benefited from it. At the end of the day, just think of three good things that you've that you've been given. That's and that gets you in touch with the grace that's at the heart of the gospel. But I I do think that if we bed down in either right or left, we'll be robbed of gratitude. And and then secondly, and I guess lastly, because we probably have to uh wrap things up, but but I I just think that that bigger vision for the human person. Um the state is not the biggest highest ideal that we can like look to, but the individual is not the highest ideal that we can look to, and uh economic attainment is not the highest ideal we can look to. And even the family is not the highest ideal we can attain to. Like, what if there is a god who has actually come down and he said to younger brothers, you know, come home and join the joy. Like, I I know it was fun in the far country, and it's great that you're so open. I'm I'm I'm happy that you're high in openness. Um But you know, the human heart is a lot darker than you thought it was, wasn't it? Um and you need saving from that pit. But then there's the same God from the Prodigal Sun story who who says to the the older brother, look, you know, it's great that you're hard working and look at look at all that you've achieved in the in the field, but that doesn't make you a family member. That's not that's not what family is about. You know, come home and join the joy. And we've got we've got a God and we've got a gospel that actually addresses both these temperaments and um and both these wings of the political spectrum. And if we as Christians can kind of embrace that and start to form the communities that Russell Brand was really talking about um in the interview. These these these he he seemed to be describing church again and again, you know, Russell Brand. Because like he's an he's an anarchist, so he doesn't really believe in the state, right? But he kept on talking about these communities that he wants around him. And he's like, Russell, come on home. You know, come on home, join the joy, you know. We meet every Sunday morning, and you are you are very, very much welcome. Cause I think there's a lot of wisdom to Russell actually at the end of the day. Oh yeah. And a lot and a lot of Russell uh a lot of wisdom to Candace as well.
SPEAKER_04Oh yeah, both both very kind of um you know, both people with a lot of good things to say, I think. Yeah. And and that's why it's so fascinating to see the two of them discuss and in a way that wasn't, you know, just a slanging match of uh horror between them, you know, as so often the case. Massacre factory. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06One of the phrases that Russell came up with. But yeah. Um so we highly recommend uh having a look at um that interview and then uh do have a look at uh our video about it. It was on fa it was on YouTube last night. It might be on Facebook later today, hopefully. That's right. And um yeah, do do go and subscribe on YouTube because we won't uh we won't always be putting the same stuff on both Facebook and YouTube. So you will miss out uh if you don't subscribe to face uh to YouTube as well as Facebook.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so you get everything. Tweet it out to Russell Brand and Candice Owens. That's right. Tag get their attention. Let's get them on the live casts.
SPEAKER_06Yes, absolutely. Let's get them in the chat, you know. Yeah, okay, we can fit them in. That'd be awesome, wouldn't it? Um brilliant. Well, thanks for your company, everybody. We've overrun by a few minutes, but uh thank you so much for joining us. There's been some uh lively conversation in the comments. We'll get to some of that uh after we stop broadcasting. But uh comment about food banks, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. I I outed. The internet has imploded. Brilliant. Well, keep smiling and uh until next week. Until next week. Bye bye. See ya, bye bye.