The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_02Atheism is down as UK gets spiritual. So said the Times newspaper recently after it published the results of a news survey. For the third year in a row, there has been a decline in the number of people who do not believe in any sort of God or greater spiritual power. In 2016, such disbelievers were 38% of the British population. In 2018, that was down by an eighth to thirty-three percent. Now, at the same time, this trend goes hand in hand with the so-called rise of the nuns, which sounds like the least scary horror film ever. It's up there with the likes of uh Dawn of the Florests or uh Revenge of the Dental Hygienes or something. I I don't know. The Shining, The Shoe Shining, would that be a that would not be a scary film? Or Seesaw? Seesaw, not very scary. Uh The Exercise of Emily Rose. Um Fairly Normal Activity. Fairly Normal Activity 2, Fairly Normal Activity 3. Um, or my personal favorite, drag me to Halffords. Shut up, that was a good one. Uh so the rise of the nuns is not about a convent that is built on an ancient Indian burial ground. The rise of the nuns is the rise of the N-O-N-E-S. Those who, when asked on a census to state their religion, they respond, none. In this country, atheism is down, Christianity is down, nuns are up. So then, fewer people are nailing their colours to a religious mast, but fewer people are nailing them to the atheist mast. And maybe that's no bad thing. I travel around the UK talking to folk outside the church about Jesus, and I've developed a rule of thumb as I discuss as I discuss God with all ages. If you are over 65 and you tell me that you're a Christian, I don't believe you. Uh I'm not rude about it, I don't poke you in the chest and demand that you sing Shine Jesus Shine to prove it. It's just that when you tell me you're a Christian, there's some part of me that's thinking, maybe, maybe this person has heartfelt love for Jesus, and and maybe they just happen to sing Jerusalem at school assemblies. You know, sixty-five years ago, it was comparatively easy to choose from a list of identity labels to Christianity and to kind of slap it on and walk out into your day and you're a Christian. Why are you a Christian? Well, because you're English. It's your birthright, don't you know? There is such a thing as nominal Christianity, right? That means being a Christian in name only. So if you're over 65 and you tell me that you're a Christian, I don't believe you. But if you are under 35 and you tell me you're an atheist, I don't believe you. And for the very same reason. These days it's incredibly easy to choose from the uh available identity labels, ah, atheist, and you slap it on and you walk out into your day. And why are you an atheist? Is it because you've read Bertrand Russell? No, it's it's just a convenient label that helps you navigate life as frictionlessly as possible. But it's a nominal atheism, right? An atheism in name only. Push beneath, and who knows what the person really believes. The statistics bear this out. Last year, Pew Research in the States did a large survey where 80% of respondents describe themselves as believers in God, and roughly 19-20% describe themselves as atheists. But the pollsters did the right thing. They asked a follow-up question. They asked, which God do you believe in, and which God don't you believe in? It turns out that when you ask people who say they believe in God which God you believe in, only 56% believe in the God of the Bible. And it turns out that half of the self-described atheists actually believe in a higher power or spiritual force in the universe. Funny kind of atheist, don't you think? But they don't know, right? It's it's just a label, it's just something you slap on, and it helps you to get around the world as frictionlessly as possible. These days it's easy to be a nominal atheist, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you're a thoroughgoing metaphysical naturalist, right? You're just a nominal atheist or a or a nominal nun, or a nominun, as I like to call it. Uh that's your word for 2019. Mark my words, you heard it here first. Nominuns, they're on the rise. If you ask people to give you a label, they will give you one that probably doesn't really fit them. Especially if they're not used to talking the language of faith, which folks outside the church aren't, and which Brits definitely aren't. Ask people what they believe, and they don't really know. They don't really need to know how to report on what they believe. See, in that same pew survey from the States last year, 40% of the people who said they seldom or never pray later reported that they talk to God. Right? They don't pray. Of course they don't pray. Who prays these days? Praying, never do it. You talk to God, oh yeah, all the time. You talk to God, yeah. Just don't pray. Right? What do we say to that? Well, you know, if if you're actually talking to God but not praying, brilliant. Whatever you thought prayer was, kiss that thing goodbye and keep on talking to God. Nice one, right? Let's not get hung up on the label. I meet lots of people who tell me they don't believe in God, and I press in and I ask them, well, which God don't you believe in? And they describe some distant individual high on power, low on personality, some kind of bearded, angry individual with a thunderbolt ready to hurl. And what do I say? I say, that sounds like Zeus. I don't believe in Zeus. If Zeus is the God they mean when they say they don't believe in God, well, praise God for their atheism, right? There is a full innominal Christianity, and maybe that's no bad thing. There's a full innominal atheism, and that's probably a good thing too. And there's a rise of the nuns. But it's not so scary, really. Just be curious. If someone describes themselves to you as having no religion, just be curious. Go beneath the labels, you might find that they're really a nominal. And maybe we can all discover that Jesus is the God we can finally believe in. It's the 8th of January, this is Speak Life, and you're watching the live cast.
SPEAKER_09Welcome to the show. Hey!
SPEAKER_12Welcome to 2019. Yeah, happy new year, everybody. Yes. Here we are. All starts again. It's the year of the nominums. The nominuns. Yeah, I see someone's already put that in the comments down there.
SPEAKER_02Start the hashtag. Just start using it. Start using it. Be an early adopter. Yeah. They'll all be saying it in six months' time. All the nominons.
SPEAKER_12Nomin nominons.
SPEAKER_02Yes. So that was that was a little uh little rant about uh nominalism and the fact that uh I I guess people don't want to take the Christian label. And they don't want to take the atheist label either. It's kind of I guess people I think people are having enough of the kind of the new atheist label. Don't label me.
SPEAKER_12That's just what you're saying. I don't want to be labeled, I want to put in a box.
SPEAKER_02I'm one of those no label guys. If you're gonna put me in any any box, it's the don't put me in a box box.
SPEAKER_12Yep, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02That's where we are, and we don't we don't want to be atheists and we don't want to be religious. Right? No. So we're just we're just nuns. And like, you know, just push beneath the label and you'll find all sorts of interesting beliefs. I'm quite a spiritual person. But yeah, you know, I mean I was doing some evangelism on the street uh last year, maybe the year before now, and um and there was a woman who who said to me, um, Oh, don't talk to me, I'm an atheist. And uh and I was feeling particularly cheeky, so I just said, What are you praying for at the moment? And she said, actually, my mum's in hospital, so you know. And that's and I I loved that statistic in the in the Pew research um uh data that came out last year. They asked people, you know, do you pray? And for all the people who said, I seldom or never pray, they then snuck in a question later on. Do you ever talk to God? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Forty percent. Forty percent of that lot said, I don't pray. I talk to God though.
SPEAKER_12That's a ridiculously high statistic, isn't it? Yeah. You wouldn't have thought it would be anything. Yeah, I never pray.
SPEAKER_02I just talk to God. Well, fantastic. You know, get rid of that prayer thing. Whatever whatever you thought prayer was. Stick with it. Stick with the talking to God thing, maybe. But uh yeah, there's there is that that interesting thing about nominalism, and I I just get it all the time when people kind of say they're atheists, and it's not and as a Christian, I think because we think about spiritual beliefs a lot and we kind of have a philosophical hat on quite a lot of the time. Sometimes, if if you're in if you're my kind of person who you know likes explaining the faith to others, you think that if someone else describes their spiritual view, they've put as much thought into it as you have. No. The reality is most people haven't really thought about it. No one's as sad as I am. I need to I need to realize this. And so when they say they're an atheist, you're like, oh no, oh, you know.
SPEAKER_12We're thinking, oh, this is the you know, like a the walking embodiment of a Richard Dawkins in front of me right here. Right. But actually. Yeah. Yeah I'm not sure Richard Dawkins has put that much thought into it, you have to be honest.
SPEAKER_02I've read his book some of the things I've heard him say. What was it um in the Times uh review of books? Um oh who did who did a brilliant review of it? Terry Eagleton, and he said uh uh imagine reading a book on ornithology that was written by a man whose only uh acquaintance with the subject was the big British book of birds and you have some understanding of what it's like to read the God Delusion. And he says he spends the entire God Delusion either banging at open doors or shooting at straw targets. Yep. Beautiful. I've always got to be. But ever every atheist you meet says, I'm an atheist, but I'm not the Richard Dawkins. Absolutely. And I th and and maybe and so like with him there is this image that people are wanting to distance themselves from and say, I'm an atheist, but I'm not like this. And I think on the other hand, the sort of institutional Christianity, the kind of Christianity that burnt witches and did the Inquisition and that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_11Yep.
SPEAKER_02And and we're all wanting to say, Oh, I'm a Christian, but not that kind of Christian, and I I guess we're we're all kind of resisting labels. And there's a degree to which that's absolutely right. Because you know, when you when you talk to someone who's a Mormon or an atheist or a Muslim or whatever, it's not like they have read the big British book on, you know, Mormonism and they're playing, you know, and they they're running through the playbook, you know, play by play. Like you just you just ask, just like like even, you know, a a Muslim who says they're very observant, you know, you just you just dig around a little and there's all sorts of kind of heterodox ideas in their thinking. Same as with a Christian, you know, you ask a Christian what do they actually believe, and we're pretty nominal too, you know. So, you know, let's get beyond the labels, and when we're talking to people, I think it's just so vital to do what that Pew research did, which is to go beyond the do you believe in God, do you not believe in God? And then you get to into all sorts of interesting territory.
SPEAKER_12So then you discover that actually they have all these beliefs that don't fit the atheist label. Right, you know.
SPEAKER_02And that the God they don't believe in you don't believe in, and maybe you've actually got quite a bit of common ground to work with.
SPEAKER_12Yeah. People would say they don't believe in God and he'd say which one they'd say. And well, I don't believe in that God either.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Exactly. It's a good it's a good line. I recommend stealing it. Steal from the bishop. And uh it you know, it it it kind of works to get you beyond that because I I think otherwise, when here's here's another like really silly thing that people do. If a Christian encounters like someone outside the church and that person says they're an atheist, we kind of imagine that we are doubly snookered in the conversation. We imagine that there are now two hurdles. We imagine that, oh no, they don't even believe it would be it would be really good if they happened to believe in God, but just didn't believe in Jesus. Yeah.
SPEAKER_12We imagine that that would be a least vaguely on the same page in some ways. They believe in a God. Some kind of a deity. We've got something to work with here. Right.
SPEAKER_02We would almost prefer it if someone said, I have some kind of belief in some kind of deity. And then we think, oh, because now we're just a hop, skip, and a jump away from Christianity, because now all we've got to do is make sure that this person knows that the God they already believe in is who Jesus is. And you're like, Well, uh like on what planet does that work? Because the God they already believe in is not a particularly Jesus-y God. And then actually what you what you end up doing is not converting them to Jesus. You end up converting Jesus to this like monster that they had imagined at the outset. And and so, like, when someone says I don't believe in God, we should be like, oh, hallelujah. Now I don't have to I don't have to fit their concept of God into Jesus or fit Jesus into their concept of God. I can just sort of say, Well, have you considered Jesus? Like, what kind of God does Jesus reveal? Is this the kind of God you could believe in? Um So atheism is not to be like run from because because A, it's it's likely that they haven't put that much thought into it. Most Christians haven't put that much thought into their Christianity. That doesn't, you know, atheists probably the the self-presenting atheist hasn't put that much thought into it, probably. They they probably pray, right? They probably have all sorts of beliefs in higher power, actually. They've been put off by certain things about Christianity, and you might want to get to the bottom of that. But don't be afraid and be curious and start talking about Jesus, because he might be the sort of gods that they they might believe in, you know. And and my line is always, look, if God is like Jesus, I'm in. Count me in. Yeah. You know? And you end up getting a lot of uh a lot of resonance from people on that. If God is like Jesus, I'm in. How about you? And and so often people have said, Yeah, yeah, sure. You know. When you then unpack it, they you know they're they're not as keen. But the rise of the nuns, the rise of the nominuns, uh is not necessarily a bad thing. It just means that we should be a lot more curious with people. And uh my my big ad advice is is uh don't be like uh David Mitchell. Uh when it when it comes to someone who presents themselves as uh spiritual but not religious. Do we know this clip? Yep. It's Michelin Webb. Let's have a look.
SPEAKER_07I think it's great the way churches have become more inclusive and open-minded these days.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm sure. I just don't think I'm really religious.
SPEAKER_07Oh, they're happy just to talk about stuff, and it's a great place to make friends. Can I I think it's great the way churches have become more inclusive and open-minded these days?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm sure. I just don't think I'm really religious.
SPEAKER_07Oh, they're happy just to talk about stuff, and it's a great place to make friends.
SPEAKER_06Can I help you?
SPEAKER_07Hi. Um, we're new to the area. We've just bought three of the old arms houses, we're having a knock-through, and we thought we'd just pop in and say hi.
SPEAKER_06Who the hell did you think you were going to say hi to? Because I'm not sure you've lived lives worthy of his attention.
SPEAKER_07Um, yeah, we're not particularly religious, I suppose, but I think we'd both say we were spiritual people, wouldn't we, Tom? We're just interested to find out more.
SPEAKER_06Not particularly religious. Interested. Spiritual. Are you testing me, Satan?
SPEAKER_07What happened to the friendly lady vicar with the colourful jumper that I met last week?
SPEAKER_06She's gone, child. They've all gone. Banished by the bishop. I know where they go.
SPEAKER_02So good. So good.
SPEAKER_12So good. I played it twice. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Is the link uh have I put the link in there? Uh yeah, just do search, just search the comments. Wait, why why did we let Andy go?
SPEAKER_12This never happened with Andy. So just can't do two things at once.
SPEAKER_02I've been asking that question. Why do we get Paul? Is the is the real issue. Um Yeah, yeah. So I think the comedy works there with such an evil Vicar, because it is so beyond anyone's expectation. Like Vickers are so meant to be spineless. If one actually has a bit of backbone.
SPEAKER_12And there's the running sketch, because it's a running gag, isn't it? And not just a vicar, there's like the evil waiter and all kinds of different scenarios. So you always as soon as you see that character, you know where it's going. But of course it it resonates nicely for us. Yes. As Christians, we enjoy it.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Well, and and it's because, you know, Vicars are meant to be quivering wrecks of of you know, quivering bodies of uh of availability, as poor Van der Clay calls clergymen. And uh and so actually to encounter I I th I think actually the challenge from that is yes, obviously we know that when someone shows up in church we ought to be really you know inclusive and warm and affirming and s curious and let's explore their internet assembled philosophy.
SPEAKER_12Twenty-five minutes in the making.
SPEAKER_02But I wonder also whether what's being derided in in that clip is a toothless Christianity as well, right. That is ripe for mocking. Um that yes, we are to be curious, and those who present themselves as spiritual but not religious, yeah, absolutely love.
SPEAKER_12You know, not only can they say, you know, here's this terrible vicar, yes, but also actually y we can take the mick out of the Christianity that would be like Right. Oh let's just all come in and be nice to each other.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think I think they're making fun yeah, I think they're making fun of you know, there's there's something about you know the Anglican vicar with the endless cups of tea, and isn't that great? Um but you know, I think one challenge for the Christian, you know, seeing something like that is um do we have a robust faith, you know, that could that could actually offer something that would be a little bit angular, a little bit off-putting, and not exactly what people were looking for. Um anyway, I uh the main the main point of that the main point of that clip is that we when we are presented with people who are spiritual but not religious, um just get into that conversation and just like and especially like you know, if somebody says I think there's a higher power, you're like, well, power, how do you feel about power? Right? Or if the or if they say I think there's an energy, like any what like electricity, like what? And then they they want to lean towards, you know, I think there's some kind of love. Like, okay, love is personal, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And as soon as love is personal, well, there might be a person on the other end of that. And that other person is not you and may have some different opinions to you. Are you okay with that?
SPEAKER_12Yeah, I mean the higher power ones obviously, isn't it? Like, how do you feel about power? Because I mean I mean no one likes the higher power, do they? Like when you think about kind of the being ruled over. Right. I mean, nobody looks at politicians and goes, Wow, we love these guys. Right. They're doing you know, they've they've definitely just given higher power. You know, but yeah, a higher power. You know, and no and then the you know, you could be anti-monarchist and who likes their boss? Well you're self-employed half the time. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_11Well so yeah, my boss is great on that side thing. The rest of the week.
SPEAKER_02I save you from your other boss. But yeah, yeah, so yeah, so when uh so when people start to describe, I don't know, I'm spiritual but not religious. I believe in a higher power, I believe in energy, I believe in love, I believe in groovy vibes and lover lamps and um I th you know I just think we've got we've got good news to actually nudge people towards, which is, you know, actually, actually there is fierce, uncompromising, beginningless and endless love. Um could that be true? Let's have a look at Jesus and see. So just some thoughts on the rise of the nuns. And uh that was one of the stories over um over the Christmas break. Um one of the other stories that's absolutely top um on BBC News at the moment uh is that more than fifty MPs have called on the head of British Brit Britain's largest police force to improve their response to abusive protesters outside of Parliament. And uh this followed uh Anna Soubri um being called uh a lot of names by some protesters uh out on the green. And uh do we have uh do we have a clip of that happening?
SPEAKER_12Just the ones.
SPEAKER_10We have to be absolutely I do object to being called a Nazi, actually.
SPEAKER_06Right, um well apologies too if you're offended by the one you're listening to.
SPEAKER_10I just think this is astonishing. This is this is what has happened to our country, actually. This is what's happened to our country. But anyway, let's try and move on and be positive about things.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. There we go. Pretty nasty. Yeah.
SPEAKER_12Yeah. But we're we were having this strange conversation about like because it on the on the news they were saying these far right protesters out there, and you're going, well, hang on a second, like far right protesters calling someone a Nazi. Yes. Right. Yes, yeah, yeah. Hang on a sec. Like To be you'd think surely that's more these are more extreme leftists.
SPEAKER_02Well, except that I think they they they feel sold out. out by by her because she's not a no-deal Brexit Brexiteer. So yeah. But yeah. Isn't isn't it interesting that, you know, if they if they are on the far right, I don't know. But it that is the epithet of choice, isn't it? It's it's just like no one would think to call her a Stalinist. Like Subaru is a Maoist, like like we don't think so even even if you're on the right, you start you you bandy about the the Nazi, the Nazi label. Yeah. Um it's it's just like he is the only kind of evil that we can imagine. The hit the Hitler kind of evil. I mean that's that's interesting. But um yeah there are lots of links on the the BBC news sites to um just the just the rise of hatred, especially directed towards MPs. And that put me on to an interesting article back in uh end of August which said that uh abusive tweets to MPs more than double um in the last couple of years. So um before Brexit um the comparison is that uh uh Twitter insults targeting politicians rose from about 10,000 during the 2015 general election to just under 25,000 in the snap election two years later. Um and it's just become a quite toxic, horrible environment online and it spills over, you know, and and what I find interesting about that kind of thing is that we get used to firing off invective at one another sharply. And then we don't really know how to deal with people face to face. And then when we get face to face it's we start trolling people, you know?
SPEAKER_12Yeah totally.
SPEAKER_02And it made made me think of um Proverbs 18 um brilliant uh brilliant first verse of Proverbs 18 um different translations of it uh put the word differently but it says an unfriendly person pursues selfish ends and against all sound judgment starts quarrels an unfriendly person. Interestingly the uh the ESV translates that word whoever isolates himself seeks his own desire and that's the one who starts the quarrels. So it's this unfriendly, isolated person who just does what they want to do. They start starting all the all these quarrels and that sort of thing and you just you just sort of imagine these keyboard warriors, you know I guess I'm one of them you know sort of tapping away at the at the at the keyboard calling everyone else wrong and an idiot and and and it just it just makes me think that you know the the deadly sin of our time is not covetousness and it's not lust. It's wrath. Like if you were to name one of the seven deadly sins as the deadly sin of our time I think wrath is the one and and surely it's fueled by us siphoning ourselves off and you know just me and you know the other people who believe the way I think and then there's the enemy over here and you can facelessly like a coward just you know let rip.
SPEAKER_12Maybe so partly an idolatry of self you know that we think we're we're good enough to just go it go it alone. Maybe that's grown up more as well in in our more uh westernized individualistic culture than it has in other cultures perhaps yes I don't know I don't know I'd be interested to know when you look at kind of online trolling how much comes out of the West and how much comes out of more community driven cultures. Yeah where there's an accountability as a group rather than I mean I I won't be you know 100% one-sided obviously but yeah it would be interesting to see that wouldn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah yeah yeah and we'll we'll see in a second the difference between uh kind of having a go at someone face to face and having a go at someone when you just think it's an image of that person. But you know I I I do see these two kind of stories relating to one another in terms of okay there's there's there's the fall of nominal Christianity and there's the full fall of people wanting to associate with the church and that sort of thing. And there's even like we're so individualistic we we don't want to be in the atheist camp either you know we're just I'm just a nun. I'm just I'm just nothing I'm just by myself I'm just me you know we are all individuals. We are all individuals um and so that you know and that that leads to that being an unfriendly person being someone who isolates themselves and and and that you know and that leads to this kind of thing. But I I I think again um church has the answer to that you know an embodied community where you're face to face with people and and you know it's interesting in the New Testament where the common expectation is that you need to forgive people a lot. You know, I mean Jesus even puts it at the heart of the Lord's prayer you know it's meant to be a daily prayer give us today our daily bread and we're meant to forgive each other daily you know God forgive us as we forgive others. Well on a daily I'm I'm meant to forgive people on a daily basis. And I wonder whether one of the challenges for Christians is that we don't put ourselves in environments where we need to forgive others on a daily basis. Because we're just not living with each other. We're just not in close enough proximity where we bump up against each other and have to learn how to say I'm sorry I was wrong. That's okay, I forgive you know and we're just not used to that that little dance that that you do that trains you and softens your heart and instead you know you online you just double down and double down and double down and so you know coming into a community like church come on come on down to church. And and and I think there you are schooled in an environment where you do disagree with people and it is difficult. And you actually have to forgive people and you have to be trained in forgiving people on a on a daily basis and that's that's the lubricant that actually keeps things going. Without that I think you just you don't know how to behave behave online and then when you get in the flesh and you see is an assubi Nazi no you know and and it just we just we don't know how to forgive and therefore we become wrathful people. So more face to face would be good. And we've got a we've got a clip to explain some of that. Can you can you set up the clip for us Paul?
SPEAKER_12We're ready.
SPEAKER_02Ready to go so so this is um so what what so Robinson Carneau is an American baseball player.
SPEAKER_12He used to be on a New York team the Yankees um yep that'll do. Not the Mets and now he's gone to Seattle or he went I don't know how old this is actually he went to Seattle and he might still be there I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah um and so they Robinson if you're watching just just check in with us and let us know.
SPEAKER_12Yeah. And it's on is it Jimmy I always get confused between Kimmel and Fallon. Yeah. Which one's which it's a Jimmy American Jimmy Fall Fallon. We'll go with one of them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah it's a Jimmy.
SPEAKER_12Anyway one of the American Jimmies show he uh he's got these guys in the street talking to uh fans and saying what do you think about this guy leaving Robinson Carnu and uh they're like oh it's terrible and they're like well here's a picture of him why don't you boo him yes and uh then we get this brilliant footage which ensues Robinson's coming back to Yankee Stadium tomorrow night for the first time since becoming a Seattle member are you are you gonna boo him?
SPEAKER_08I'm gonna boo you ready try it again again we actually have this picture of him right behind you so whenever you're ready to as much as you want.
SPEAKER_04I'm in Seattle more time stay in Seattle we don't need you in New York hey I love that so great that guy at the end so good.
SPEAKER_12Hey I love that he doesn't even realize for a second that he's looking basically looking right at him and he still doesn't twig. Yeah yeah but there's something different about face to face yeah you know well it's it's that kind of classic thing isn't it where when people have got a it doesn't have to be an insult thing you know but just a grudge kind of like something they want to have out and I'm sure we've all been in that situation I can never think of a specific time it's happened to me but I feel like we've all been in that situation where in a group you said we're fed up of this we've got to say something and you go okay I'm gonna say it and you say it and then you're like and everyone else thinks so don't you guys oh no I don't know don't give up you're like you snakes you cowards because when you get face to face with someone like I mean as you see there they just completely back down don't they?
SPEAKER_02They're like oh you've got to see the full clip the full clip we put in the comments oh it's gold it is pure gold. All the responses I I just like that and and so we we're just not trained in being face to face and having a disagreement and it's okay to have a disagreement but you can still be civil about it. And and you know Peter Young's just just commented as Christians do we not have an opportunity to show everyone how to disagree well let's face it we have a great heritage of not agreeing even with ourselves. We are the experts here. So yeah absolutely we we we could you know cause a fight in the phone box and uh as Christians. But you know I I think I think it's great, especially in uh in this country I don't know how people are going to vote in my church and and I I couldn't guess yeah by the fact that they're in my particular church which way they're gonna vote, either on Brexit or party wise. Crowborough might be a bit different.
SPEAKER_12Yeah yeah but that that no you're right though because when you go to I mean m the state seems much more right you know partisan if you're if you're a Christian you're you should be voting Republican kind of that's kind of the the view that seems depending on the church. Right, okay yeah but that's the sense you get from the state that that comes out of the states isn't it? Whereas here you d you could be in any church and you wouldn't really know that you might have Greens, you might have Labour, Conservatives Are we any better at talking about let's say Brexit than those outside the church?
SPEAKER_02And like I yeah I just I just wonder whether over over coffee after the service? But I'll it's a it's a good question that Kana Peter raises. Don't we have an opportunity to show everyone how to disagree well? And I and I just wonder whether we're not very used to disagreeing face to face with one another either.
SPEAKER_12But no like you say no one is taught to disagree. So now like the idea is you don't disagree we just we'll just we'll just tell you what things you should think. Yeah and then anyone that does disagree we can shut those voices down. Well they're a Nazi so you know but like in school but you don't get taught really I mean there's still the I imagine in some places they they have the kind of debating societies or whatever. But in most schools that's not going to be the case I wouldn't have thought. You know you're you're not taught how to think you're you're told what to think and how to write it down on a piece of paper for an exam.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And if someone thinks differently you need a safe space you're being triggered. Yeah.
SPEAKER_12And what it means is that we're now in this stage where people don't know how to I mean and I feel it in my heart as soon as I I find someone who disagrees with me immediately I'm like right like this is this is like the enemy now. I have to tear you down. Right. Destroy Yeah rather than just like well we can agree to disagree or let's have a civil conversation.
SPEAKER_11Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_12It's like and now I'm here to destroy you. I know you know how do I do this?
SPEAKER_02Yeah it has been accelerated by online clickbaity kind of just Ben Shapiro destroys little puppy. Christian nails problem with atheism. I know I did not come up with that title people. Paul is Paul is referring to a poem that I did at the Unbelievable conference. Which well went down fine with atheists on the day. There was even a podcast that that discussed it very favorably and the atheists didn't feel got at and then the not us another another channel puts this massive red banner on it above the video and says was it Christian nails the problem with atheism?
SPEAKER_12Something like that, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It just immediately gets everyone's back so this is yeah anyway. So in answer to your question Peter um yeah we do need to do better at uh at disagreeing. Bill uh Bill Lavelle says uh American evangelicalism is becoming more and more politically diverse um I wonder if it's becoming more diverse in all sorts of ways um and whether Bill maybe you can comment on this but but w would you say that different branches of evangelicalism are are going wholesale for different branches of uh the political spectrum I wonder. I don't know.
SPEAKER_12Um because that that would be the interesting thing to see like is it br certain branches tend to be one way or another whereas I think the big difference here is that you couldn't pick a branch and say right New Frontiers guys are definitely these and Anglicans are definitely these guys. It just doesn't work that way at all. Yeah but maybe maybe that's not how it works in the States but Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean there's a you know from from the trade unions have got a history tracing back to sort of Wesley and Whitfield and you've got the you've got the liberal tradition that kind of basic you know goes back to nonconformists and and there is there is something to the Tory party being you know the the what is it uh the the the the the Anglican church is the Tory party at prayer. You know this there's something there are broad sort of uh kind of trends like that but yeah it's n it's it's n it's nothing like as as um one for one. Sure. Um Bill's just said the diversity is quite diverse. Yep yeah so uh so yeah let's get face to face let's get better at actually putting ourselves in a position where we need to forgive other people and then um let's let's try to disagree well we had we had a a whole episode on uh ten things that uh ten ways of having a Brexit conversation moving beyond Brexit battles. Yeah.
SPEAKER_12So you might want to check out I don't know if anyone actually had a con it'd be interesting to know if anyone had any conversations about Brexit over Christmas with family members because I know I know there were a few people on the on the radio actually when it was in the car they were they wanted to get people in on the Friday with their family member that they knew they were going to have a big bust up with. Okay. So and so ones are leave, ones remain. Yes. Um but I I wasn't in the car on the Friday so I didn't hear it but I don't know if anyone had conversations. I don't think we had conversations in our house. I did I we try not to talk to each other thing easier.
SPEAKER_02I that there was a late night conversation. I voted in a direction that nobody else in my entire extended family voted.
SPEAKER_12And they did want to know why and I just bring any of your wisdom to bear? No.
SPEAKER_02I ch I changed the topic to something that I thought you know might be might be more conducive to a a good conversation. But yeah the mood the mood in the room at that moment.
SPEAKER_12In fairness I imagine that your family I mean this is probably in Ireland so a bit of a touchy subject for you dear Liz.
SPEAKER_02He's thinking it through for you yes yeah yeah absolutely touchy subject and and sometimes it's best you know what is it that's the better part of valor? Discretion is the better part of valor. Oh Biddy Matter has just said I was very surprised that a friend knew the leave to remain ratio in her church I wonder whether she did know I wonder whether she guessed how I mean she got a clipboard and a pen.
SPEAKER_12How do you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah yes before taking communion Leave or remain yeah how did she know? Biddy how did she know? What's going on there? So anyway we need to we need to be leading the way in good conversations good disagreement which is a term disagreement man.
SPEAKER_12If you're an Anglican that shivers down your spine that's phrase.
SPEAKER_02Yes um we need a different phrase then yeah we yeah we need to be able to be face to face with one another. I mean I mean some some of the listening processes in the whole good disagreement thing uh in the Anglican church um are good practices in terms of let's listen to someone from the other side and let's hear them out and let's be able to summarize their position and all that sorts of but yeah we need to be leading the way in being people of grace and not being an unfriendly person who pursues selfish ends and starts quarrels. Proverbs chapter eighteen verse one over the Christmas break um there are a couple of um stories of people who uh have been caught out by the Me Too movement and uh identified as as uh those who have allegedly done wrong. Uh I know that Kevin Spacey um had in a tweet kind of admitted some kind of wrongdoing that he didn't remember but he has sort of said if I did anything like what this allegation is saying Yeah.
SPEAKER_12I'm not sure whether he was admitting he'd done something or whether he was saying I don't remember I apologize if s if something has occurred. Yes. I think it was ambiguous enough to it was not be an admission.
SPEAKER_02But there have been many other uh allegations and uh Kevin Spacey appeared in court yesterday uh over a sexual assault charge and uh all of this was kind of brought to my attention I don't think I would have kind of known about the story except that he released a video which we'll see some of as Frank Underwood his character on um House of Cards on House of Cards I was gonna say West Wing no West Wing has a good president Frank Underwood not so much. Um yeah and was it on Christmas Eve or was somewhat somewhat it was yeah it was in the Christmas period I don't know exactly what it was. If you haven't seen this this is an extraordinary way to respond to an allegation let's have a look here we go I know what you want oh sure they may have tried to separate us but what we have is too strong it's too powerful.
SPEAKER_05I mean after all we shared everything you and I I told you my deepest darkest secrets I showed you exactly what people are capable of I shocked you with my honesty but mostly I challenged you and made you think and you trusted me even though you knew you shouldn't so we're not done no matter what anyone says and besides I know what you want. You want me back of course some believed everything and have just been waiting with bated breath to hear me confess it all they're just dying to have me declare that everything said is true and that I got what I deserved wouldn't that be easy if it was all so simple? Only you and I both know it's never that simple.
SPEAKER_12Wow it's just weird isn't it?
SPEAKER_02What was his publicist doing at this stage?
SPEAKER_12I was always thinking like where did he film that? Like 'cause I mean that's good production. A cameraman is in on it at least I mean is it just in his kitchen? I mean with a tripod or like what? Like it's just weird isn't it who chose that apron honestly nothing nothing in me would make me think if I'd been accused of things like that. What would be a good idea is for me to get into character. Wow uh and uh do a do a bit on this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah as one of the television's that character Most nefarious characters yeah so weird so weird and and you know and maybe we're getting back to the Proverbs 18 thing in in terms of the um uh whoever isolates himself you know those who isolate themselves and and I wonder whether Kevin Spacey is in a very isolated place and making some bad choices. Yeah. Um and what was interesting to me is over over Christmas uh you know a friend said to me um the great tragedy with the Kevin Spacey thing was that um she couldn't now enjoy Seven, one of her favourite films.
SPEAKER_12Right I imagine that is what's weighing heavily on the um the victims as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah well exactly but it was it was just interesting that she sort of brought up she now can't um appreciate any of your any of his work as an artist because it's become obvious that on some level and who knows whether the allegations are true, but um certainly releasing this video made her think twice about her, you know, unqualified support of Kevin Spacey. Yep. Um and it was just interesting like she she I mean she goes to the theatre and she's seen him, you know, 'cause he's been a massive patron of um um the theatre here in London, um the national, I think. And uh and so she's loved his work, but she now can't square can I enjoy his work and be thoroughly disquieted by the sort of person he is. Um and I think and and she was lean Towards, okay, he's toxic, he's a toxic brand, everything's got to go.
SPEAKER_11Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Which I don't know, maybe, maybe that's right. But I just think more and more we are leaning towards a time when um we we brand the other person as totally toxic, and everything they touch is toxic, and everything must be like shamed and shunned. Yeah. Um and then there was the Louis C. K. thing. Um so Louis C. K. uh is another guy who um has behaved uh extremely inappropriately towards people and has admitted doing that. Um but now that he has you know been on the wrong side of the Me Too movement, you know, and in one sense rightly so, um, he kinda he went back to a comedy club and he told some gags, which are pretty much exactly the kind of gags that he was telling all along.
SPEAKER_11Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um but now the same sort of people who were laughing, you know, at the jokes before, um being incredibly risque and being in you know incredibly transgressive, now they're like, oh, this is beyond the pale, and you know, how dare he tell transgressive jokes now? And you're like, well, he's a troll. He's always been a troll. He used to be your troll, and you were happy with it. Now now he's not your kind of troll, and so everything is, you know, everything is tainted and problematic, and um and so like nobody now knows what to do with Louis C.K. Um and it j it just brought me in mind of what Sarah Silverman said about him. Because um maybe we can jump over to the Sarah Sarah Silverman clip because um she is another um provocative comedian who is extremely transgressive, who just thinks of the worst possible thing to say, and then she is a kind of a lifelong friend of Louis C.K. And and she has been involved in this same thing of okay, I hate what he did. Now what am I meant to do with him? Now what am I meant meant to do with his art? Now what am I meant to do with our friendship? And she doesn't seem to be able to have a category for hating the sin and loving the sinner. And I think that came across really interestingly uh in this clip by Sarah Silverman.
SPEAKER_00You've probably heard what's happening in the news recently regarding sexual assault, especially in the entertainment industry. And to be clear, it's not just Hollywood, it's everywhere. Like this stuff happens in bakeries too. It's just not getting written up in the New York Times. This recent calling out of sexual assault has been a long time coming. It's good. It's like cutting out tumors. It's messy and it's complicated, and it is gonna hurt, but it's necessary, and we'll all be healthier for it. And it sucks. And some of our heroes will be taken down, and we will discover bad things about people we like, or in some cases, people we love. Let's just say it. I'm talking about Louie. Um, and I've of course been asked to comment, and in full honesty, I really, I really, really, really don't want to. I uh I wish I could sit this one out. But then I remembered something I said on this very show that if it's mentionable, it's manageable. So uh I'm gonna address the elephant masturbating in the room. And uh in full disclosure, I'm I'm still processing all this shit. Uh but here's where I'm at on it as of this moment. It could change tomorrow, and if it does, I will keep you posted. One of my best friends of over 25 years, Louise C.K. masturbated in front of women. He really did his power with women in ways. Sometimes to the point where they left the comedy entirely. I could count his heartwarming stories of our friendship. What a great dad he is. That's totally irrelevant, isn't it? You know, because I love Louie. I just hate asking myself. Can you love someone who did that thing? Can you still love them? I can roll that over later, certainly, because the only people that matter right now are the victims. They are the victims and they're victims because of something he did. So I hope it's okay if uh I am that one who's very angry for the women he wronged and the culture that enabled it, and also sad because he's my friend. I believe with all my heart that this moment in time is essential. It's vital that people are held accountable for their actions no matter who they are. We need to be better. We will be better. I can't wait to be better.
SPEAKER_02I found that really powerful, actually.
SPEAKER_12Yeah, and I mean I wouldn't say I I I've thought of Sarah Silverman as being a particularly thoughtful person, to be honest. Like she sends I generally find her to be quite just brash and loud-mouthed on things.
SPEAKER_02A troll as well.
SPEAKER_12Yeah, absolutely. So it was quite surprising to see it really and to hear that.
SPEAKER_02Um he did those things. And I don't know how those two things can be true. It's just like you're you're at the heart of the gospel there, aren't you? Yeah. Like Yeah.
SPEAKER_12And and and this whole thing, like you know, so so she asks that as she asks the question, can I love somebody that did bad things? I mean, there's a load of things going on there. I mean, you just think, well, if you don't love anyone that's done bad things, I mean you're not gonna love anyone, and no one's gonna love you. I mean that's the thing and that's the and then we've got this question that which then raises this thing of, oh, but then are there these bad things which are more unspeakably bad than other bad things? Yes. Um, so people like Louis CK, can they ever come back from what they've done, really?
SPEAKER_11Right.
SPEAKER_12It is is part of the thing, you know. So so and for us as Christians, that's that's an interesting one.
SPEAKER_11Yeah.
SPEAKER_12You know, what do we make of that person who maybe we know who has been involved in things like that?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_12Maybe has come to Christ or repented. How do we we deal with that? Because do we really believe it? Because society I don't think society really believes people like that can bounce back.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_12Because she's she's asking that question. She's almost apologetic in asking can we do this? Yeah, yeah. And is it okay that I feel this way?
SPEAKER_11Yeah.
SPEAKER_12You know, almost like she's putting her neck on the line by just saying those things. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Umpletely.
SPEAKER_12Whereas some people would just look at her and say, Any any allegiance you have to him now is you're as bad as him. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02He's toxic.
SPEAKER_12So for her to be a big thing. You would be toxic in the world. Yeah, yeah. You're tarred with the brush. Yeah. And for us as Christians, we should be thinking, like, well, what do we do in those situations? Right. You know, I mean, complete I mean if Louis C.K. Yeah. If tur if you turned up at church tomorrow and became a Christian, what do you do with your in your congregation? Like, how do you handle that? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Peter Young uh again has commented very well. He says, um, what about in Christian circles where Christian leaders fall from grace? Um how do we think about the things that they've done before? Is everything they did or said or wrote tarnished by their actions and mistakes? So think about Bill Hybels, who's been accused of all sorts of inappropriate sexual behavior. Um Mark Driscoll he mentions, other people he mentions, like do we just do we burn his books, right? Um and then what do we what do we do about any sense of restoration and that kind of thing? And and all those questions need to be thought of um carefully. But I don't think you burn the books because you discover you know something unpleasant in in somebody. Um precisely because um you find something unpleasant in all of us, right? It's it's not just oh Louis did something bad and how could he be loved? It's like, well, okay, you've done something bad, how can you be loved? Yeah. And let's let's take me too seriously. You know.
SPEAKER_12Yeah, yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_02I'm also a Weinstein, you know. I'm also a Spacey, I'm also a Louis C. K. You know. And and and therefore, is there is there love for me, is there grace for me, can there be restoration for me? Um and only through the gospel. And and it just seems like when we walk away from the gospel, we become a shame-based culture where we just denounce people, they are toxic, and they must be shunned from the community forever. And if if you want to rescue that person, then you go out outside the camp to and you're, you know, and close the door behind you.
SPEAKER_12Yeah. And there is I mean, and I think there's the difficulty in the church is that there's a I mean, I I'm always I don't like using the word balance because it's not what I mean about equal sides, you know. Yeah. But there's a tension, isn't there, between holding people accountable and saying you like so let's take the leaders who, whilst in position, have you know done wrong things, right? Whether that's illegal things or whether that's you know, uh impropriety, moral impropriety or whatever. Yes. Um you've got to be held accountable. Yeah, I mean, we feel like we should hold them accountable, but can they come back? Because I don't think society has that category of you know, that so the Louis C.K. Yeah, can he ever really be restored? Yeah. Um is everything he touches toxic? Yeah. Whereas in the church, how do we deal with that? And I I think the problem is, as a Christians, we're so bound up in the culture that I think a lot of us as Christians struggle with the idea of letting people back in. Right. So we're happy to do the shunning. Yeah. We're not very good at doing the flesh. The flesh.
SPEAKER_02And that's and no wonder the culture goes towards that kind of pagan view of things, because that is what the flesh wants to do. Oh, yick, you're gross, you're disgusting, you are shunned. Um But the gospel, the gospel has love the sinner and hate the sin, right? And you know, lots lots of people don't like that phrase because I mean it's not in the Bible and all that sort of stuff, but but it it's a it's a decent rule of thumb. Um and it does mean really hate the sin. Like really, you can absolutely hate that sin. And it doesn't mean you always restore a person to a position of authority where they where they you know might fall again into into that same sin. Um there are all sorts of questions about wisdom whether you restore them to that position of responsibility, but you should absolutely and always restore them if there's repentance, restore them to the bonds of fellowship in the community. And and they are shoulder to shoulder with you, and they are they are not to go around always constantly with their you know chin on their chest.
SPEAKER_12I think, you know, the difficulty is like we're always keen we we've always got the sharp knives out for dealing with these things. Yeah. But then, you know, we're not really prepared to do the the the sharp knives round on ourselves to to look at exactly the same things. We give ourselves a free pass on this or that behaviour or whatever it is. Right. Whereas as soon as we see it in someone else, we jump on it and particularly if they're in a position of power. And I I mean I I don't know. Yeah. I mean CK's pretty cut and dried because he's admitted to what he did and stuff, but there are a lot of cases as well where you you just don't you you're not it's not clear what's happened, and there are definitely people there are people out there who are not good people and will take advantage of these situations to point fingers at people. Um as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But what we what we have is law and gospel. So what we can do is exactly what Sarah Silverman wants to do, and I think what could be a real lifeline to a culture um that is just hurling shame and shunning people left, right, and centre. We we have this law and gospel that says, that was wicked, that really was sin. And I see some of that in myself, and oh my goodness, we all need to repent about this because this is just as dreadful. And there is the grace of Jesus because the blood of Jesus purifies you from all sin. Um and if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. You know, but if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just and will forgive us and purify us from all unrighteousness. Um the that gospel, it's I think I think that gospel lands, especially if you're in the place of Sarah Silverman or in the place of my friend thinking about Kevin Spacey, and like what are we meant to do with people who do bad but we love them? Is is there a hope for them? And is there a hope for me when I do bad and I want to be loved? Um, there's a there's a God who died for sinners like you. Um so again, I think I think the gospel is uh is the answer to all of this, really. Um we don't have much time left at all. We've gabbered gabbled on, um, but we do need to talk about uh the video that we released last night. Um called A Picture Is Worth a Thousand Words. So, Paul, uh you're the mastermind behind this. Tell us uh what was your thinking in in uh doing this film?
SPEAKER_12Well, it came out of the the Brefos conference that we went to where Ashleen Ashlene um Hubert Hubert uh spoke and she was talking about the way in which um public opinion has been changed by images over the years, and so she mentioned a lot of the examples that come up in the video. Yeah um and I thought, oh this is good, you know, maybe there's a a kind of way of doing initially I thought maybe like Facebook posts, you know, kind of like a day one, you know, here's here's the images on slavery, you know, and like and imagery the images that made a difference because they humanized the slaves turned the tide of popular picture. And each day because you because my suspicion was people would see those pictures and go right on. Oh, this is terrible, yeah. That was yeah, right on, actually. And they would look at the next one and they'll go, Oh, that Emmett till that is it's just hor horrifying what happened to him, and yeah, you know, and they'll see Civil Rights or see Aylon Curdy. Um and then bang, day whatever you're doing, yeah, you go, and this is abortion, and this is what's going on. My suspicion is the comment section would be a little bit quieter on those, the likes might not be quite as um uh forthcoming. Yes. And so actually I thought, well, we kind of thought maybe we could do that as a video form. Um, I think so we'll see. It's said that a picture is worth a thousand words. Words can only convey so much. I can tell you about a beautiful sunrise, but if I show it to you, that's what really communicates. Images convey something that words simply cannot. Just look at the impact pictures have had on the world. In the 1700s, the Atlantic slave trade was in full swing. William Wilberforce attempted to bring anti-slavery bills before Parliament, but was knocked back again and again until Thomas Clarkson came along. Clarkson travelled around Britain gathering evidence about the slave trade and speaking to the public. He took some vigilets with him, a box containing equipment used on slave ships, including handcuffs, shackles, and branding irons. The most striking was the Brooks, a slave ship originally built to carry 451 people, but in Clarkson's day, it was carrying over 600 slaves from Africa to the Americas. Clarkson published a diagram showing the living conditions of the slaves. Chained together by their hands and feet, they had little room to move. The startling diagram was distributed far and wide, and the print hung in every abolitionist home, making an instant impression on all who saw it. Around the same time, Josiah Wedgwood joined the fight. He designed and manufactured the now famous Wedgwood Medallion, perhaps the most famous image of a black person in all 18th century art. The medallion bore the phrase, Am I not a man and a brother? Becoming a catchphrase of both British and American abolitionists. The image was reproduced everywhere, from books and leaflets to snuff boxes and cufflinks, and helped galvanize support for the abolitionist cause. Benjamin Franklin commented that the medallion's effectiveness was equal to that of the best written pamphlet in procuring favour to those oppressed people. In July 1833, the Abolition of Slavery Act was passed. But the struggle for equal rights went on. So it's just uh the first couple of minutes of the video, and actually we then we goes on to some stuff the civil rights movement, um, and a little bit of a precursor to that with Emmett Till. Um if you don't know his story, do check out the video. Um but it kind of runs through how people seeing these very visual things in the in the case of slavery, it was the the the ship or the the items. Um people saw these things and were horrified by it. And in the case of Emmett Till, I mean this boy who was incredibly badly beaten and murdered, his body being put on public display in front of the media, you know, photos taken, it's uh horrifying to see. Those things, uh just like uh only a few years ago with um Aileen Curdy, the little boy washed up on the the shore, um kind of just a photo that went viral and people saw it and it kind of turned well, it turned you know United Kingdom stance round on what it was doing. Yeah um which is saying actually when people see things it makes a difference, you know, and then and I think Ashleen was saying, you know, that's how comic relief works. Right. Comic relief doesn't just you don't just have Lenny Henry standing in the studio saying because this terrible stuff going on and it's terrible. Yeah, you see the photos and suddenly you know I I defy anybody to sit through a whole evening of comic relief, well generally, but like to sit through a whole evening of comic relief without shedding a tear. Yeah, you know, because it it grabs you, doesn't it, by the heartstrings when you sit you think, oh my goodness, the horror of what's going on. Yeah. Um and I think hopefully when people see this, I mean what I what I hope is what they're going through is they they see these things and they go, Yeah, these are terrible, these are terrible, and they get to the abortion and they go, Hmm, this is terrible. Yeah. Because I think as we've seen in or we've talked about in previous discussions, there are lots of people out there who just don't have never seen it as well. It is hidden behind closed doors, just like the the real uh reality of slavery was hidden behind closed doors. Yeah. What racism was really like wasn't that obvious outside of certain areas um until it was put on public display. Um so hopefully, I mean it will go out, I mean it's on YouTube, it'll go out on Facebook later tonight as well, so hopefully we'll get it shared round a bit as well. Yeah. Um hopefully people will take the time to watch it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_12And it will hit home a bit. Yeah. And I think particularly it's the the quote at the end I like is the William Wilberforce one that he said after he'd you know laid out his his case for um abolition abolishing slavery. You know, he said, Um you can choose to turn away, but you can never say that you did not know. Right. Um I think that's that's part of the challenge of the video saying, look, this is happening. Um none of us have got an excuse now. We can't say we didn't know this was going on. Yeah. Um here it is in full view.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And uh I'm meeting up with Dave Brennan from uh Brefos very soon, and um what I'd love to talk to him about is okay, well now what? You know, like I want to do something. Yeah, yeah. What can be done, what should we do? Um, and we'll get into a conversation with him.
SPEAKER_12I wonder whether I mean I think for me, I mean we haven't talked about this, but from from our end at least in one sense, we th that video that we've just done is i although it's made by us, there's nothing particularly Christian about it, explicitly. No. Um I wonder whether it'd be great to do a video which is like uh you know, for for the vicar, you know, how can how can I talk to my church about abortion? Yeah. Well I can show this video as a starter. Maybe maybe we could do something like that, I don't know. But you know, at least or at least something for the Christian that says this is why we should care about this from God's point of view. Yes. Um if it isn't obvious already, but yes. Um yeah, Dave or have bigger picture ideas as well, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_02So Yeah. Yeah. So let us know. Let us know uh what you'd like to see uh as we uh get back into the swing of making videos, uh some thorny questions uh in the pipeline and uh some uh some more videos on all sorts of topics. So see where the year takes us. Yeah. Brilliant. Well, that'll do us. And uh thank you, Bill Lavelle, for saying this this live cast is awesome. Not my words. The words of Bill Lavelle. Uh thanks for doing it. It's amazing that we Yanks can have our morning coffee uh with two mates in the UK. Uh he's very contextualized. He knows he knows how to speak the link. Uh very good. And um brilliant. So, yes, we'll we'll share that video on Facebook tonight. Uh, you can be sharing it on YouTube right now. If you're not subscribed to YouTube, why don't you subscribe to YouTube? What are you doing? Just do it. Take a look at yourself. Like have some It's 2019. It's time to subscribe to Speak Life UK. Uh, especially because that helps us get seen in the search engine and actually other people discover our videos because you've clicked on that little subscribe button.
SPEAKER_12And that's particularly important on YouTube because I would say on YouTube we probably there's more non-Christians engaging with the videos generally than tends to be more Christians on Facebook, which is great.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_12But YouTube is a place to be.
SPEAKER_02Your little click will help us get seen and help us scatter the seed further. Yep. Brilliant. All right. Thank you, Paul. Thank you, Glenn.
SPEAKER_12See you next week.
SPEAKER_02Have a good week, everybody.
SPEAKER_12See you. Bye.