The Speak Life Podcast, sharing Jesus in everyday life.
SPEAKER_05Weak and so helpless is nothing that the God child can do. It's true. My God is so small. Weak and so helpless is nothing the God child can do. The mountains are his, the rivers are his, those stars are his, and you are too. My God is so small, so weak and so helpless, there's nothing my God will not do for you. Now you know it, why don't you sing along? My God is so small, so weak and so helpless, there's nothing the God's child can do. It's true, my God is so small, so weak and so helpless, there's nothing the God's child can do. The mountains are his, the rivers are his, those stars are his, and they want to.
SPEAKER_12For you LA, la custom, welcome to the la cast, la cast, la cast, welcome to the show. Welcome to the Lacas, Lacas, Lacas, welcome to the show Welcome to the show, everybody! Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas!
SPEAKER_06Beginning festive for you. Yeah, getting into the spirit of it all.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_06Seven sleeps. What is no seven days? Six sleeps? Yeah. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Probably I don't know. Who knows?
SPEAKER_06Who knows now? Not really my thing, but uh counting. It's against my religion. So uh yeah, so that was uh My God is so small. So that was me trying to channel kind of Columb Buchanan or something. But uh Why would you want to do that?
SPEAKER_03My God is so small.
SPEAKER_06There there is a certain brand of kids song that tends to be a about bigness, though, doesn't it? There is a bigness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. God is a great big god. Very big, big, big, big, big bow. Big big bow, big, big bow, very, very big, big bow. That's kind of most big. Right, yeah, yeah. God is just big, so bow.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, God is a great big god, that's another one, isn't it?
SPEAKER_06Right. Yeah, yeah, and he's higher than a sky started.
SPEAKER_03God's love is big, is God's love is great, God's love is fab, and he's my mate.
SPEAKER_06Well that's you know, uh, but it yeah, there is a theology of glory going on. Yeah in a lot of to use the technical language of the Heidelberg disputation of uh 1518, which I think was the real birth of the of the Reformation. So back uh we've had five hundred years since the Heidelberg disputation in which Martin Luther said there's two ways of doing a theology. One way is a theology of glory, which is you ascend to the big God in the sky, and the other way is the theology of the cross that actually God stoops down to your level. And he thought the whole Reformation was basically about a a battle between the theology of glory and the theology of the cross. And I I I think that that's at the heart of the Reformation. And I think that actually you can be on the reformed side of things, uh, but still have a theology of glory. And still it's about the big, the big God. Yeah. Um, constantly. And therefore, as we'll see later, Christmas just kind of lands like an asteroid, and people don't know what to do with it. Even even good reformed Protestant people. Good Bible-believing Christians, good Bible-believing people, they don't know what to do about Christmas because it's about the little Lord Jesus. Right. Can we handle the little Lord? Right? And so yeah, so that song is just an uh an attempt to uh subvert a few theologies of glory and and talk about my God is so small. He he became small. He became weak and helpless for us. So Yeah. If you want to use that this Christmas. I didn't I I just changed two words really.
SPEAKER_03So I would I'd push for Christmas number one. Christmas number. Everyone seems to be doing it. Is there anything going for Christmas number one this year?
SPEAKER_06I would have sent someone um this we built this city on sausage rolls. Oh yeah, I saw that. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03See, I'd be happy for that.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. That could go to number one. It reminded me what a terrific song we built the city on rock and roll was. Like And how much I like sausage rolls. Really? I know they're a bit a bit carb heavy.
SPEAKER_03Some places have a twenty-four hour Greg's. Really? Yeah. I think up north. The demand at three in the morning. Yeah, yeah. Well totally you know if people have been on a night out, right?
SPEAKER_06Why not? Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Or ginsters pasty. Yeah. You know?
SPEAKER_06Jinsters. Not ginsters?
SPEAKER_03I don't know. Sorry back forward, neither do I care.
SPEAKER_06I care not. Uh if you're wondering what we're talking about today, uh sorry. Boom. Look at that. Like Jinx. And uh we're talking about how to take over the world. How do you take over the world? And the answer uh the answer is not the way that you think. Not the way that other cultures or empires have tried to take over the world. Right. Uh, and that Christmas is the key to unlock how you overtake the world. Oh. There we go. Okay. That's what we're gonna talk about. Great, and we'll develop that theme as we go. Um have we introduced ourselves? I'm Glenn. Hi, hi. Hi. Hi, I'm Paul. Yeah. I don't know what I'm saying that to you, no. I know. That elf costume is is not uh has not thrown the s thrown me off the scent. I thought it was Prince Charles. How dare you? Um obviously an Irish kind of Prince Prince Charles with a pig under your arm. Bogara Bogara. So I'm I'm just you just offended one member of the royal family. I just offended an entire nation. There you go. Well, sorry. I'm married to one. Some of my best friends, of course.
SPEAKER_02I wish. I wish.
SPEAKER_06Um so yeah, how do you take over the world? And the first thing we're gonna think about in terms of how you take over the world is um how the Christian gospel spreads. And uh we uh released last night uh a video called Old Story New Media, and that was a uh a talk that I gave at uh the National Club that's uh uh yeah, a bunch of Christians together thinking about how um how Christianity and culture kind of goes together. And I was talking in particular about the new media and and those sorts of things, and uh I thought just uh playing a clip for you of that will help us to get into this discussion of how it is that the Christian message takes over the world. Let's have a look. Okay. Oh, everything's moved on here. Here we go. Everything's here we go. A few years ago, um on about the 23rd of December, I wrote a little poem called The Anti-Santi Ranty. And it was just for a uh Carol service, and then a friend said, Why don't we film that? And so we filmed it on the 24th, we uploaded it on the same day, and by the 25th we had 20,000 views, and we thought, well, that's interesting. And uh it sort of started me thinking about online ministry. As Glenn has said, you know, when you look at YouTube, there are 1.8 billion unique monthly users. 1.8 billion unique monthly users on YouTube, 2.3 billion monthly unique users on Facebook. Um, those are definitely the biggest countries on planet Earth, and you think, well, who are the missionaries? Um maybe we need some good gospel content on these platforms so that Christians don't have to continue to share sneezing panda videos and cat videos and all of that. Umbe there's good news to share on these platforms, and we've just increasingly found uh that we're getting traction as we think creatively about the gospel and about how to present the gospel online. Um we've seen that actually the gospel starts to get shared in a way that's kind of analogous to social media. The way social media spreads and the way the gospel spreads is kind of the same, actually. It's the same dynamic because in social media what you like, you share. It's very simple. Very, very simple. You like something and you share it. And if enough people like it and share it, it goes viral. And kind of that that's the mission of the church as well. Um I hope that's the mission of the church. I I hope the mission of the church is not just the sharing part of things, because we must. I hope the the mission of the church is the liking of the good news, seeing the goodness of it, and then from the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaking. That would be uh a healthy gospel dynamic in mission. Um but I think there's a great opportunity in social media for there to be that healthy dynamic that as we describe the goodness of Jesus in ever richer ways from many different angles, that really my first goal is to evangelize Christians. Um, and again, this is how social media works. The the way that social media works is not that you kind of um beam your messages into the ether to some random strangers over there. Uh you beam your message to your network, to your friends, to your followers, to those who have something in common with you. And the way that it gets passed on is not with this sort of broad scatter shot thing, but actually it goes viral. In the way that diseases go viral, right? How do you how do you get a viral disease? Well, you if you spend enough time with the person with the illness, uh perhaps you'll catch it. And then if you spend enough time with another group of people, perhaps you'll spread it. Um and it it should work the same with the gospel, it should work the same with social media. But it gives you a very distinct strategy. I I think my number one strategy for reaching out is not to try to reach the internet. Uh really, mission happens through God's people, as God's people take the gospel out. And so I think mission online happens as we produce media that Christians like. That would be handy, wouldn't it? Media that Christians actually like. Um and so, yeah, so how it works online is what you like, you share, and I think that's how the gospel is spread. You like, you share. And I think it's kind of the life of God as well. So from the fullness of God's loving triune life, God shares, right? The overflow. From the overflow. Like the fountain. Like the fountain. So yeah, from fullness, we pour out, because this is this was God's life. Uh from the fullness of Father, Son, and Spirit united in love, they said, This thing's too good to keep to ourselves, let's share. And so there is a pouring out from fullness. And then we as Christians, we've kind of received the fullness of God poured out to us in Jesus, and now we address the world and from fullness, from from a place of love, we now flow out to the world. Yep. So that to me um is how you take over the world, right? How you take over the world if you're into that kind of thing, and to be honest, who isn't really? Aren't we all? Um trying to take over the world. Yeah. Um the way to do it is from fullness to pour yourself out. Which is the absolute opposite of the way that like naturally human beings try to take over the world. From emptiness, which I take. Yeah, you know. Which is like you know, if it's it's the tragic way of living. You know, we we I keep talking about, you know, the the the comedy. I'm doing I'm doing the fingers again children, I'm doing the those listening at home, I'm drawing the U-shap. Here's the smiley face. The comedy goes down into the pit. But from fullness pours itself out in order that the one in the pit might be swept up into s into something great. Um the tragic way of life is from emptiness you try to grab and sc scratch and climb and take and get and um that's the tragic way of life. And it's also the tragic way of trying to take over the world from emptiness. You try to take stuff. Um and so one common theme with today's live cast really is um that our mission to the world is from a place of fullness where we understand the love of God, but then we want to share with the world. So my way of doing mission, um, and I think I think yeah, the way modelled to us by Jesus Himself is not to be needy, greedy, oh the pews are empty. Let's let's get out into the culture and try to gain converts. It's actually from a place of fullness we try to offer Christ. And I think those two kinds of strategies um are at play when you look at Christian missionaries. And you know, one way of doing Christian mission would be to look out into the culture as a nervous, empty church and to think, what's popular? I know, baby shark, that's popular, right? So let's do We would never get on board with that kind of thing. You know, that would work. Don't give people ideas. Maybe that's the right thing to do. Maybe that is the right thing to do. Or no, it's not. It's not.
SPEAKER_03Let's be honest, it's really not.
SPEAKER_06Or you look out into the world and you think, oh gosh, I'm empty. You know, I'm I'm a Christian, the church is empty, we need to go out and what you know, what's popular out in the world? I know Fortnite. So how do I go from flossing to What are you flossing?
SPEAKER_17You don't know about flossing? Yeah, I do not know.
SPEAKER_06I was wondering what you were doing. I can floss, I'll show you. That's that's how Ruby does it. She loves flossing, she just does that like that. And there's the uh there's the gift. Um so yeah, yeah, how do you get how do you get from Fortnite to the gospel? Yeah, yeah, from emptiness or or you know, I don't know what else is popular. Kanye West.
SPEAKER_03I have no idea what's popular. Thug life.
SPEAKER_06That's the desperation of trying to jump on the Thug Life bandwagon.
SPEAKER_03Think about the baby shark type example of someone taking a song was when I was at Coventry Cathedral. Oh yeah. Um and I was sitting there before the service, and the band were like warming up, and I was thinking, I really know this song. I recognise the tune, you know, the guitar part, whatever. And it got to the the chorus, and this guy just started boating out, Lord, my heart is on fire. And I was like, No, no, no. This is wrong in every way. In every way. Why would you do this?
SPEAKER_09Just yeah.
SPEAKER_03So there's a there's a there's a pr I mean there's a there's a line you've got to draw somewhere, I feel. And I feel songs that talk about your sex being on fire. Probably, I mean that line was probably quite far back from there initially. Yeah, though. So it should have been drawn earlier than that.
SPEAKER_06The line was several miles back, but oh my goodness. Was it your my heart is on fire, your love is on fire?
SPEAKER_03My my heart is on fire.
SPEAKER_06Wow. Wow. Well, that's that's one for the uh the rotation at uh church. Oh yeah, absolutely. Um my goodness. Or um here's a here's another popular thing. What about fidget spinners? Fidget spinners, they're popular, kids love fidget spinners. So we're empty, we're empty, we're looking at what's in the t in the culture. Quick! What could we get from a fidget spinner? Let's try to take the culture. Right. And so you might end up with a video something like this.
SPEAKER_10So here, this is kind of hard to ignore that, you know, here we have three points, which is the Holy Trinity. Okay. So Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And then, you know, my first thought was that this centerpiece here represents the Holy Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary, obviously. And I I you know, so okay, so so why why why does this matter? Why why you know how could you possibly conclude something like from a toy?
SPEAKER_06So why do we do this? Why do we do this? It's just yeah. Yeah. But you see what I mean? It's it's like the desperation of we're empty, what's popular?
SPEAKER_02I can't even say it now.
SPEAKER_03Fidget finished. I was so dumbfounded by what we've seen on that video.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So maybe that's not the way to take over the world. No, probably not.
SPEAKER_06You know, or what what what is the most popular YouTube video of all time?
SPEAKER_03Of all time.
SPEAKER_08Is it is it possibly this one two is ending and I still have nothing?
SPEAKER_11No jump, no canoe house, no iPhone, no girlfriend, no saving. No pitch iPhone, my needle, hello it's coming. Oh no, what should I do right now? I mean everything, oh my god, every day, no, I think we're gonna be a little bit more than a little bit. Oh my Jesus thou.
SPEAKER_03No. Oh, flippin', like open numb Jesus thou. Thing is, see, see, a while ago, like remember when we went to um the Jerusalem Awards, and someone said to me, like, oh, you know, thank you so much for like the stuff you're doing, like really like pioneering stuff. And I was like, is it? I was like, really? And then I realised that that that that kind of content we're up against looks a bit like that, you know. You know.
SPEAKER_06Whereas we we we are classy people.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, obviously this is a high caliber, high quality production, without a doubt.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. But you know. I it's quite fun. I mean that's quite fun. I do I don't begrudge.
SPEAKER_03And I've seen other ones like um I'm bringing serving back, you know, instead of Justin Timberlake's sexy back. And of course we all Your serving's on fire! Yeah. And we all love a bit of babies got book. You know, we have to do it. So we we like that. That's true. It's alright if it's got its tongue in its cheek, basically. Right. We we we're cool with it. Right. Um if we think I mean, if you went to church and they said, well, we're gonna sing opinus style right now just because of the kids, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Might raise an eyebrow or two. So one of the things I said last night uh in in last night's video um was that it should be from the fullness that we overflow into the culture, and that technically and historically has been how the church has reached out. That like um there's there's that tweet that I always refer to. Some someone said that I've just been to the National Gallery. Uh let me let me summarize the history of Western art. It's a thousand years of crucifixes, then stripes. You know, and it's just it's just this idea that you know you've got a thousand years of religious art, and it's and it it is just hey, like if you go through the National Gallery, that that's a pretty, you know, it's a pretty good summary actually. If you're gonna summarize in seven words, it's a thousand years of crucifixes, then stripes. Um that you've just got religious art, religious art telling the old, old story in beautiful ways, and then you depart from that old old story and you get a little bit of impressionist, and then you know, it's like Jackson Pollock just throwing paint against the wall and going, Look, Mom, look what I did. Um but you know, that's that's the way that Christianity has actually uh affected the culture. It has gone back to the source and told its own story. You know, that Christians have have been assured of the goodness of the good news and therefore just gone out into the world and not tried to do what the world was doing, but actually tried to tell its own story on its own terms in beautiful in beautiful ways. And that's the kind of the that's the flow. You know, from fullness we pour ourselves out and and therefore, you know, how should Christians take over the world, right? Um as those who pour themselves out, right? Not in the not in the selfish way. And how should cultural engagement run? Well, it's it's about telling the good news of the Christian story in its unparalleled goodness. Because the world just the world's just got nothing. On what we've got, you know, you just you just cannot improve on the Christian's Chr the the Christmas story, right? So um one thing that kind of got me thinking about that was um should we should we should we talk a little bit about uh Tylene Polly? Sure um last last year uh this time last year I had uh a debate, it was it was a friendly discussion. Obvious obviously Justin Briley found it was far too friendly, and so he wanted to step in and uh and play a bit of thug life for it for himself. But um guys, I was just too nice to um this uh there's an atheist singer called Tylene Polly, and she wanted to do some atheist Christmas carols, and so she took the words of normal Christmas carols and got rid of the Jesus thing. Yep and what did she insert in its place? It wasn't really clear. Um and so I I thought that that was a really interesting example of how another worldview is trying to reach the world. They they see something that's out there and they replace the Christian story and they try to insert something else. And what do they end up with in its place? Well, let's have a look at the video and see. Yeah, I mean, absolutely, people have always sort of celebrated, huddled together in the darkness and and waited for the days to lengthen, waited for the light to triumph over the darkness and that sort of thing. Um But I guess I'd just look at the tidings of comfort and joy and just ask so tidings means news. So what is what is the news that's going to make me happy in the midst of the darkness? What's what what news is giving me comfort and joy as well?
SPEAKER_01It's just a celebration of, you know, look, we've all come together. It's that time of year. Let's, you know, drink and eat and enjoy each other's company. And um like the how I how I end the last the last verse um about you know being good to each other as well.
SPEAKER_05Mm-hmm. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because I think it's a time of year when um you know, we have these celebrations, it makes us happy, it makes us merry. But I think actually if we didn't have that, particularly in this part of the world, you know, where it's a bit cold and wet and damp, and we might not be particularly nice to each other without the festive spirit in place.
SPEAKER_06And I I guess I'd say I think the festive spirit comes from a particular news item, and the news item being that the light has shone in the midst of the darkness. And you know, remember Christ our Saviour was born upon this day to save us all from Satan's power, lest we were gone astray. So that actually the there is an otherworldly light that is dawned in the midst of the darkness, and therefore, ah, there's comfort, there's joy, there's something to cling on to.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And I just wonder whether celebrating celebration is sustainable. Right. If you know what I mean? I want to celebrate something that elicits that celebratory kind of response from me. Or I want to sing about something that's because of its aesthetic appeal, because of its just joy-giving nature in and of itself, it calls forth the song, it calls forth the joy.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_15I guess the question for you that tied in is as an atheist, where where where does the the meaning of the celebration come from? For a Christian, obviously like Glenn, it's very clear that the thing he's celebrating, the thing that we can be joyful about at Christmas, is Jesus Christ, God with us and all all of the rest of that. Whereas for an atheist, um what is the I guess it's it's for me, if and and I don't mean to be critical here, but when I look at your songs, they they they feel Christmassy and they sound Christmassy, but it's a bit like wrapping uh like taking all the wrapping paper off a Christmas present and inside you find, oh there's nothing actually there.
SPEAKER_03I don't mean to be critical here. Justin drops the J-bum right at the end of the head. Basically, I find your work to be empty.
SPEAKER_06Um, like eleven years of cultivating the nice guy image on unbelievable. I think I drove him to it. I think I was too nice.
SPEAKER_03I think I was and he just you could see him kind of brewing it a little bit earlier on in the in the in the video, but um the thing it reminds me of though, like I mean the the good point that comes out near the beginning is you know, what are the tidings she's talking about? And actually what that reminded me of was that that video with Stephen Fry. Um, you know, it c all her songs are gonna they're gonna sound quite nice and warm and fuzzy. Let's think about you know um you know Christmas and being together and stuff like that. I mean, I'm sure there's plenty of people who would say coming together with with your family is not their um idea of joy and it's a lot of people. Yeah, we get onto that in that later on in that podcast. So I'm sure there's some people who disagree. But it sound sounds warm and fuzzy, but like what's the what what is the reality of of what she's saying? And it reminded me of that Stephen Fry video where they're asking him about you know how he faces his depression. I we brought this up a number of times. Yes. And he says he keeps telling himself, you know, well, the sun will come up tomorrow, you know, and this idea, it's gonna get better. And you're like, you look at that and you go, Yeah, but Stephen, you've got no real basis for that. It might be that you never come out of this slump. Right. You know. Right. Um and in an atheistic worldview, yeah, there's no real reason to expect that you will. Whereas at least for the Christian, you've got something to look to, you know, uh totally from an eternal perspective. Totally. Um and it's like that with these Christmas you know, so there's this kind of nice fuzziness about the sun will come up tomorrow. But it's kind of an empty thing, just like those carols are ultimately empty. Right. You know, on apart from what's on the surface there.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. O rest ye merry gentlemen, let nothing you dismay. For centuries we celebrate every year on this day. To keep our spirits merry, we feast, sing, dance, and play. Oh, tidings of comfort and joy, tidings of comfort and joy, and and like it's just celebrating celebration. And there are no tidings. And this is the thing, you know, you you you get rid of the thousand years of crucifixes and you end up with stripes. You you you get rid of the story of the actual Christ child, um, and all you're left with is it's always winter and never Christmas, um, which is you know C. S. Lewis's description of Narnia in its fallen state. And what I found really interesting is is that one of uh Tylene Polly's reworkings uh of the old time carols was We Three Kings. Um and one at one point in in her we reworking of Wee Three Kings, she says, We are lost in the snow. Which way is home? We do not know. Find our tracks and we'll find our way back following our footprints. Which is just really interesting, because obviously, you know, what do you follow in We Three Kings? You follow the star, right? Yes. You are you know, you are oriented to something that's outside this world, you're looking up. You know, this is the the three kings follow the star to find home. And here we are lost in the snow, and all we can do is follow our footprints. Yeah. And if all I've got to do is follow my footprints, I'm I'm in trouble. Um and this is the the these are the tidings of the naturalistic worldview, and and it just uh it doesn't make me want to say ho ho ho, that's that's for sure.
SPEAKER_03No, and you I mean you talk in the uh I think you mentioned it on the on the video that the the tidings call forth the song. Right. Is that what you said? Something along those lines. Yes, that and so whereas they're having to find something, they're like, let's do a song, right, and now let's find something to sing about. Right. Whereas for the Christian, it's the other way around. It's like we have something that makes us sing.
SPEAKER_06Right, exactly.
SPEAKER_03Whereas you're just trying to fill it in. I mean, you were saying before, you know, just replacing it taking the kind of cr God out, replacing it with something else. I mean, yeah. Welcome to secular humanism and you know, let's just take God out and put good in in the you know in the place. Yes. Um it's just a similar thing, isn't it, really? Yeah.
SPEAKER_06It it it doesn't last long. And because it's from emptiness that they're trying to get something. Um and so, you know, I I I talked about, you know, there's another worldly light that has dawned in the midst of the darkness in that video, and uh foolishly I I I then looked down into uh the comment section and uh do we have a screenshot of the of the Yep, here's the comment. There is no otherworldly light that has dawned in the midst of the darkness. You made that up. If you have some evidence, please report the spectrum. Exactly what frequencies of light were violated. How can light be different than predicted by Maxwell's equations? You do know Maxwell's equations, don't you? No? Well, how about learning some basic science? Um before you reveal your utter ignorance is how it went on. Okay, yep. So you know, so that's was just a reminder to me. Never read YouTube comments.
SPEAKER_07It ends up a bit like ow. Ow Everts I don't I don't think there's ever been a more accurate representation of totally is what it's like reading YouTube comments.
SPEAKER_06Totally is. But we c um yeah, you know, we we we joke because we d we do love all your comments on YouTube and uh want to engage with them and and we've seen, you know, people actually drawn in and engaged with the content through comments and coming to our channel and discovering more and becoming Christians. So, you know, I guess there is a redemption. Even for YouTube of the fallen state of YouTube comments. But um but I think yeah, so it's that sense of we have a culture that wants to get rid of the Christ child and and hang on to Christmas, and you know, it's J. John's old joke, you know, what what happens when you take Christ out of Christmas, all you're left with is MS, right? And it's um Marks and Spencer's for those who aren't in the United Kingdom, a purveyor of fine goods. And um and so, yeah, that was brought home to me um just on Sunday night. Uh I d I was preaching at a carol service at uh Emmanuel Hastings and um preached on Isaiah chapter nine, which again is about you know those walking through the valley of deep darkness, the light has dawned. And and I preached it and it seemed to go well in the room, but you know, the a guy came up to me like straight afterwards, and and the first two sentences out of his mouth were very effusive and said, I don't know what you call that, there's a preacher sermon, whatever, homily, but but loved it, absolutely loved it. What do you think of gay sex? And it was it was one of those like there have been a few moments in my life that have been like that, which have been as abrupt as that. Just out of nowhere. Like, yeah, yeah, really loved that whole Christmas. Well what what about gay sex? What about it? Um and I was like and my my first response was just, oh look, sexual ethics are just like like completely like on the periphery of what Christians believe. Ethics is not even central to the Christian story. There's actually a Christian story of love, love showing up in the and he just cut me off and said, Oh, I know what you think then. And and and so he had he had a deep problem. And then then instantly, like before I was even able to say anything on the issue, he was like, And what about transgender? And I was like, Well, you know, I've got all the sympathy in the world for this issue of gender dysphoria, and I it's a really difficult issue. Do you know how we should best deal with those with gender dysphoria? And then like he cut me up and was like, and what about abortion? And like and off we went on that topic, and all these sort of hot topics he just wanted to to raise. And and uh and eventually we sort of got the conversation back to oh, but hang on, like what do you actually believe? You know, and and and he said, Well, I I think there's a there's like there is an energy that's beyond this world. And I was like, is it a personal energy? Like, does this energy love you? And ultimately he was like, No, no. And I and then I was able to say, Well, look, actually, with Christmas, you've got the good news of a baby that that shows up, and there's a trade-off. When the Christmas child shows up, there is a trade-off, and and this isn't exactly what I said to him, but it's what I've been reflecting on since Sunday. Um, the trade-off is this with the Christmas child, love shows up in person, which is wonderful, because it means there's not just an energy out there that vibrates, that there's actually personal love that has a face, and you can get to know this God, and this god can get to know you. So that's that's bonus number one. And bonus number two is this God actually wants to intervene in this world and actually wants to show up and do something in the Valley of the Shadow of Death and transform it into feasting joy. That's he So he shows up, which means he loves you, and he shows up, which means he wants to set the world to rights. Brilliant. The trade-off is okay, the the God who is out there is not just an energy vibrating, but there is a person called Christ who has some opinions on stuff. And um and therefore our cultural moment, our cultural nanosecond in cosmic time is not the ultimate arbiter of what's right and wrong. And therefore, maybe our cultural moment has got one or two things wrong. Maybe about sex, maybe about human life, maybe about lots of stuff. May maybe we've got one or two things wrong. And if but if there is a Christ child, if there is someone who comes into our time and space, I guess that's gonna bump up against what we've always thought. And are we willing to make that trade? Are we willing to say, okay, our little tiny cultural moment is not transcendently correct? Um But the the win is you've actually got a God who loves you personally, and you've got a future that that goes beyond the the valley of the shadow. Are we willing to make that trade off? And what I find so interesting as I reflect on this is that we as a culture have said, no, we absolutely don't want to be contradicted. We absolutely want to absolutize our moment in time and space and what our culture thinks about sex and human life and everything else. That is ultimate. And we we want to make that trade, and we we want to say, you know, no to no to the Christ child coming in and having opinions of his own.
SPEAKER_03He's on the wrong side of history.
SPEAKER_06He's on the wrong side of history, and it's certain he certainly was on that cross, wasn't he? He was crucified under Pontius Pilate. But then he you know, he is at the right hand of the Father. Um but that's the trade-off I think our culture has made. I think in in with such a desire to be right about sex and all all sorts of other things, um, we will we will keep Christ out. But to that degree, we then keep meaning out, we keep life and love out, we keep hope out. Um and that's you know and therefore you end up sing singing along with Tylene Polly, We're lost in the snow, following her footprints. Yep. You know?
SPEAKER_03And then ironically, she does immediately then sing Star of Wonder. Oh yeah, yeah. Guide us to our home tonight, so you know who is this star? It's a bit of a bag, isn't it? It is.
SPEAKER_06Footprints, is it stars? Right, right. But it's that it it's that whole trade-off, and I think Christmas Christmas brings it to a sharp point. Like, wouldn't it be amazing if God showed up with a face that love with skin on was here to be personally known? That that God is not just an energy or there's not just, you know, dead rubble out there in the universe, but but that there is a a personal god of love who's shown up in time and space to set this world to rights. That's the positive. Yep. Here's the trade-off. This God has opinions about stuff that probably won't be yours at every point. Can you handle that? Just reminds me, I spoke to a student once and I I I was just enthusing about wouldn't it be amazing if God showed up on planet Earth and you could get to know him? And she just said, that would be really inconvenient. I said, What do you mean by inconvenient? She said, Well, you know, I just want to live my life the way I want to live my life, you know. I don't want God to get in the way. And she was just being honest, right? Yeah, yeah. That's the that's the trade-off. But it but that's the trade-off with all loving relationships. If you want to have a loving relationship, like prepare to be contradicted. Yeah. Absolutely. And if you don't want to be contradicted, then you don't want a relationship, you know? But so that's sort of one way I'm making sense of Sunday night. What it was just extraordinary, sort of preaching about Christmas. And and he d he did seem to be genuinely moved and interested in the talk. But just like, what do you think of gay sex?
SPEAKER_03Like there. Huge things there to kind of try and tear down, I guess.
SPEAKER_06Yes, yeah, Roger is to Roger Marshall has just commented, he says, uh, how disruptive was the birth of Christ for Herod. Yeah. Yeah. He flew into a rage because this was not part of his narrative. Like he's the king. And then you know, Herod's like us, right? Yeah. But he's he's the king of his little kingdom, and Christ is a threat to that, and so he will do whatever it takes to eliminate Christ.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, at least like you're saying with that woman, at least she's honest. Because there are many people who you know will put up all kinds of uh you know, intellectual kind of arguments against belief. Um but often when you push the bur you know burrow down a bit more, you realise it comes down to a well, I don't want to do this because it will mean I have to change. Yes. And that's what it comes to. I mean it's it's like the classic I mean I love the because we haven't mentioned him yet. Jordan St. Jordan Jordan uh in his um GQ. Is it GQ Moses? Yeah, okay. That interview there. I mean, just my the my favourite moment is when he says to the the lady interviewing him, you know, don't do you have privilege that you've got that is unearned? And she said, Yes, and he said, Well, why don't you give that up? You know, so you're you're complaining that other people have got this privilege, why don't you give it up? And she said, Well, um I don't want to and I won't. Yeah, it's like that's just a brilliant example of like just the the self-righteousness of human of the human heart, isn't it? Like, well, I think everybody else should give up their unearned privileges because it's not right, but uh I don't want to give up mine, so I'm not going to. Yeah. Yeah. Bang on, you know.
SPEAKER_06And that's the tragic way of life. From emptiness we're grasping. And that's what life is. I'm not going to give up my principles of the world. No, no, right. So what is the Chris well, what is the Christian story? It's the theology of the cross. It's from fullness you pour yourself out. You know. Which just goes to show, you know, how absolutely radical and revolutionary the theology of the cross is, and we'll we'll kind of get to that. Um on the subject of people changing Christmas carol words, um, uh very interestingly, the Australian religious response to climate change uh is a group in Australia, and uh they've got lots of people around Australia to go into public places and start singing Christmas carols, but again with Christ taken out of things and an environmentalist message uh put in. So for instance, uh we wish you a culfy future, we wish you a culfy future. Really hard to sing. We wish you a coffee future. So let's start this year. Good tidings we bring with solar and wind, we wish you a culfy future. Our future we fear. Isn't that interesting? Our future we fear. So like good tidings we bring, again, they've got the okay, good tidings. Tell me the good news. Yeah. Our future we fear. It's yeah, we're stuffed. Like that's fine. Like, re repurpose things. Christians are always repurposing other, you know, aspects of culture. You can repurpose that, that's fine. But at least make it scan people. And um and if you're gonna have tidings, make sure that they are at least comparable to the good tidings of the Christian message. The good tidings of the Christian Christian message are that that little baby born in the middle of history has come into the deepest part of the valley of the shadow of death to transform it into a mountaintop of joy. Um If you if you've got a story like that, then sing away. But you know, if you want if you want to take that old, old story and just say, our future we fear Merry Winterville, everybody. Um there's a there's another one. The Joy to the World has been repurposed as cool down the world. Should we should we sing a few years? Yeah, we said we'd we'd give it a go, didn't we? Oh, because actually they they've they've got this competition. Like you can send in a clip of you singing this, and they might upload it to their channel.
SPEAKER_03So Is it is it what you're doing? Is it when you say there's a competition, do we win anything?
SPEAKER_06Fame, adulation, just being there, Glenn. To be known to be known among the Australian religious response to climate change circles is reward enough. Excellent. Um okay. Well I'm game. There you go. Mamma mi mamma.
SPEAKER_03Inside the lips.
SPEAKER_04Okay. Unique New York. Unique New York. Okay. Cool down the world. The time has come. For time, it's tight and fetching. Let's get on renewables. Let's unrenewables unrenewables. Let's unrenewables. Has come for nature to rebound the fields and floods, rock fields and bones, repeat the sounding toy, repeat the sounding toy, repeat, repeat the sounding joy. Cool down the world, the time has come to make the nations prove the man with the mouth of the pay to preserve the wonders of this earth. The wonders of this earth. The wonders of this earth. Well.
SPEAKER_06Cool down the world.
SPEAKER_03Who is in a deeply bad place. So no.
SPEAKER_06It's fine, it's fine to have an environmental message. I mean, go how much more could God prove that He really has a plan for planet Earth and wants us to steward it and and rule the world with truth and grace than Christmas, right? Yep, sure. But it's like he rules the world with truth and grace is is the verse from joy to the world. Um and therefore our future is not to be feared. Yes, we are to steward this creation wisely. Um but you know, if we if you're gonna tell tidings, let's tell some good tidings.
SPEAKER_03I just in the next one.
SPEAKER_06Yes.
SPEAKER_03Away in the Arctic.
SPEAKER_06The glaciers melt, the ice turns to water, the warming is felt. We wish you a steady climate. We just want ambitious targets. We just want ambitious targets. Um and on and on it goes. Um so you know, that's fine. That's fine. People can do that. Um but look, it's n it's not it's not just uh other sections of the church that are wanting to change Christmas and to kind of twist the Christmas message into something else. I think even our own tribe do it. And uh I put in the comments uh a link to uh a post that I kind of push out there every Christmas um uh about how to how to preach at Christmas, because I think even within Reformed and evangelical circles, um we tend to pass over Christmas and we don't really know what to do with it. Because maybe do we have a theology of glory? Right. Do we have a theology that God is big and that we cannot therefore handle the little Lord Jesus?
SPEAKER_03Well, I think that's absolutely true. And my so my biggest gripe for years was that every time I went to a a Christmas talk, it was almost you know, you or you you couldn't uh separate it from an Easter talk in many ways. You know? It's the classic I think you mention it in your thing, get beyond the manger, you know. Remember he grew up. Yes, he grew up. Which I remember, I and I'm never gonna forget that because once in the YouTube comments someone said he grew up. Yes remember? Yes. After Meet the Nativity. Yes. He grew up and he became a carpenter. Yes. Because that's obviously the important point. Um he grew up, he became a bloke, he swung out swung a hammer. Yeah, and then he called us idiots who knew nothing of Christ. Yeah, he did. That was less nice.
SPEAKER_06That was less Christ-like, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03But um Yeah, I mean the classic it's like you go and they and it'd be preaching the cross, and and the kind of I've heard people say, ah, but Paul says, you know, we preach Christ crucifiers, and you're like, yeah, but that doesn't mean you never speak of anything else. Like, and and by saying we preach Christ crucified, that doesn't mean when someone preaches the resurrection, right? Oh hello, like that's not what we signed up for. Yeah, yeah. You know, you're drawing a bit of a false dichotomy between these areas there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Um, I I I think because I I have One Corinthians one totally in mind when I preach the manger, right? Because he says, I determined to know nothing except Christ and Him crucified. Because that whole chapter, 1 Corinthians 1, is about a theology of the cross, as opposed to a theology of glory, where he's like, you know, the Greeks they're into their power and their wisdom, but we preach the Christ who made himself small. Yeah. Right? And that's that's my motivation for the first time.
SPEAKER_03Philippians 2 touch stuff as well, isn't it? God comes down and humbles himself, yeah. You know, but taking the form of a slave and Right. It's that, isn't it?
SPEAKER_06It's the comedy, people, it's down into the valley, and the manger is on the way down, and as Philippians 2 says, he he keeps on humbling himself. So again, the comeback to the guy who says, He grew up! You morons, he grew up. You're like No, actually he stooped further, is literally the way the story goes. It's not that he made himself bigger after the manger, it's actually he made himself smaller and he continued to pour himself out. From fullness, God pours himself out.
SPEAKER_03And it's and I think that's a that's a good message at Christmas, or it's a good message any time. Because often, you know, when people people come to church at Christmas who maybe don't come to church the rest of the year round. Um and if you're not a part of the church, you probably do have the view of God that we talk about sometimes, is that God is the big, you know, bearded guy in the sky by himself, right, high on power, low on personality, that kind of thing. And actually people say people have this impression of God as God is that wants to start to take away our fun and our control and just you know, we are to submit to God like He's this terrible ruler over us. But in the incarnation we have the God who steps down, right, lowers himself to be with us, joins us in our you know, in our mess, so we can join him in his family, right, you know, becomes our brother. That's a very different story. Right. But and Christmas is a great opportunity to preach that. Yeah. You know, it's just a great way in, isn't it? Totally. And that has and and I think it surprises people because people have this view of God. It's the you know, philosophical view of God, you know, the omni being, isn't it? You know what we talk about. And actually the the st who Jesus is just comes and shatters that completely. So totally.
SPEAKER_06Why wouldn't you want to do it? Well yeah, exactly. So I I think it does diagnose a a deep problem um with our own tribe, and I'm talking to you evangelicals. Um there is there is a bit of a problem, and I I wonder whether it is a theology of glory that we naturally have. Um Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Do you do you wonder whether do you whether wonder whether some people feel they've gotta they've got to talk about the cross because if we don't talk about the cross, then we've not done the preach properly. Like 'cause I would say I've certainly felt pressure to to get to there.
SPEAKER_06Right.
SPEAKER_03Not really because I felt this is where it needs to naturally lead from what we're talking about here, but mostly because I felt pressure from I know someone's gonna feed back to me on this afterwards, and they'll be like, You didn't mention penal substitution, you know, like um pressure there.
SPEAKER_06Well, I mean, clearly the Bible holds crib and cross together. Like you go to Hebrews 2, and it's like he became a you know he became a brother, became a faithful high priest in order to offer sacrifice for us. Like, and and so I'm totally into holding crib and cross together. And I'm I'm always saying things like the crib and the cross were s cut from the same piece of wood, right? And and there he is wriggling and raw and naked and struggling for breath on the wood. Remind you of anything, like because I'm wanting to do this thing that the the the crib is revealing the God who pours himself out, and he's not done yet. He'll continue to pour himself out. Yeah. So so I'm totally into holding crib and cross together in that sense. And I'm totally into preaching um an atoning incarnation. Like the reason why he becomes man is that he wants to be at one with man, right? And that's where the word at atonement comes from. It's at and at one moment. So in the manger, like you're really looking at the lengths to which he wants to go to be at one with us. He'll become one of us. And so I wanna I definitely want to preach atonement and I definitely want to preach the you know the trajectory towards the cross.
SPEAKER_03And it's distinctive as well, isn't it, from from other faiths. So often people, you know, you hear the kind of classic, oh, all faiths are just the same thing, really believe the same ideas. But of course, the idea of of God becoming flesh would be abhorrent to the Muslim, right? You know, unthinkable.
SPEAKER_06Right. Um Go and worship your flesh god. I had that you know at Speaker's Corner, and so yeah, this this Muslim is always talking about Jesus, and he just said, You go and worship your flesh God. Your flesh god. Which is great at John one John chapter one, isn't it? The word became flesh. It's such a repugnant idea.
SPEAKER_09Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. It was repugnant to the classical mind, it was repugnant it is repugnant to the Muslim mind. Like it's just nuts.
SPEAKER_03But I mean and for me, like one of my the favourite name I have for for God is Emmanuel. Right. That's the one I like the most, the God with us. Um and I think that is that is such a a key thing to bring in at Christmas. Yeah. Yeah. And and like you say, it's a story all through the Bible, you know, God walks with Adam and Eve in the garden. Um and then it's always all through the Old Testament, is like I want to make a dwelling place to be amongst my people, I will be amongst them. Right. And you've got your tabernacle and your temple which do that, and then Jesus comes, the f you know, word becomes flesh, and tabernacles amongst the people. Right. And of course we're looking to the end where, you know, in the new creation and you know, God is God is just there, you know, and we're there and dwelling together. Yeah. And again, that's very kind of that is not an an an Islam thing as well, is it? You know, Islam is very much even when you go to paradise in Islam, Allah is not there, you're not with Allah.
SPEAKER_06No. Um not at all.
SPEAKER_03Not at all, yeah.
SPEAKER_06So you know. Yeah. And and so like in in my article I talk about three A's um that that tend to um describe sermons on the incarnation in our kinds of churches. Uh the there's the abrupt incarnation, these there's the Anselmium, and there's the apologetic. The abrupt is just like, oh God in skin, weird, right? But stick with me, you know, and it's just it's it's not tied into the logic of the gospel or anything. It's just like, I know this is gonna sound strange, but God in skin, weird. But I think when you when you've got the kind of theology that you've just laid out in the background, God in skin is ah, that's exactly what a God who wants to be at one with us. It's all total, it's not it's not this abrupt thing, it's a consummation, right?
SPEAKER_03It's it's And everyone well everyone everyone hates the the far away, distant god, the this be the omnibeing who rules over them. You know, people hate that idea. Well, yeah. And so talking of the god who becomes flesh and comes to dwell with us, you think is a- Although the guy in Hastings shows you why we don't want the gods god to show up, right?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. And I think that is always going to be that is, you know, if he shows up, he might have some opinions. They might not be identical to mine in 2018, you know. Um so that yeah, so in our tribe we have the abrupt incarnation, or we have the Anselmium in i Anselm Anselmian.
SPEAKER_03Uh Anselm, but we can't say it.
SPEAKER_06So Anselm um wrote a book, Why Does God Become Man? Kur Deus Homo, right? Why Does God Become Man? And essentially it was it was a kind of a penal substitutionary like argument. It was like, well, for God to be just and for him to justify the unjust, there there needs to be a sacrifice, and therefore the sacrifice needed to be man. A like-for-like type thing. Had to be a like for like. So in order to redeem the product. If you've not read the book, there you go. You should do a YouTube video. Um yeah, and so that that's the reason for it, and and and there's kind of almost this kind of transactional theology going on. Like he had to come and pay the debt. So, you know, and that but then you just start to wonder why why doesn't God just zap the wood of the cross? Why does he have to zap, you know, and and Anselm comes back and says, Well, it was man that sinned, and so he has to become man. But yeah, yeah I don't know, it just bec becomes a very transactional kind of theology. Um or there's the apologetic way of preaching Christmas in our churches, which is all about apologetics, where you just say, Ah, the good thing about Jesus becoming flesh is that he has left footprints on this earth, therefore we can study the New Testament documents, and they're very historical, don't you know? And you go down that route.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, here's the evidence, look into it.
SPEAKER_06Which is one application of the the wonder of Christmas. Yeah, it has its place. Um but I think we can go beyond the abrupt, the Anselmian, and the apologetic. And so I suggest in my article three others there's the Athanasian, the atoning, and the abasing. The Athanasian is okay, let's be Trinitarian about this. Like, if you've got if you've got a Trinitarian theology behind you, if before you talk about two, you've got three, right? Thinking about three, two, one, sort of my my gospel presentation. Three, God is a loving union of three, then the son of the father becomes our brother when he becomes that second Adam. That's the two, the two, the two representatives, Adam and Christ. So the son of the father, the son from that family joins us in our human family. And then all of a sudden it starts to make sense. If if God is a family of love and the son from that family joins our dysfunctional family, you're like, okay, that works. It's not abrupt or you know. When you've got a Trinitarian framing, it kind of helps. And then we need to preach an atoning Christmas, which is this is part of God's becoming at one with us so that we can become at one with him. Um and it's an abasing Christmas. He, you know, he he's pouring himself out from fullness. The little Lord Jesus is expressing just how divine he really is. Because how do you know a fountain? You see a fountain when it's poured out. And you start to see that fountain poured out at the manger. You continue to watch him pouring himself out through the gospels, and then on the cross, really, he is that fountain of life, going thirsty, so that we who are thirsty can drink from him. So those are three themes I'd love to see people um take on in their preaching the Athanasian, the atoning, and the abasing. Um You know what? Let's should we go over the hour?
SPEAKER_03Uh why not? Why not?
SPEAKER_06I don't know. It's our last of it's our last podcast of 2018. So um if you want to press pause now and save us for next week, there we go. You can uh you can do that. Um but I I just wanted to uh note a couple of things in the news just in the last 24 hours that I've come across that I uh I just thought were brilliant and people should uh get a load of them. So James Carey, uh friend of the show, uh he's been on the show many times. And uh James is a comedy writer, uh writes for a lot of shows on the BBC, and he was on Radio 4 just this morning. You heard him on the radio?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I was in the car and you let me know about it.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, yeah. I was listening to Radio Two because Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So, like I say, if at that age it's happened.
SPEAKER_06I wish I could say Radio One, but it's just noise, people. It's just noise. All that bleepy boppy music. Um but yeah, you heard him uh talking about uh his new book. He's got a new book coming out early next year about comedy and Christianity. So should we hear uh some of the things he said on Radio 4 just this morning? Yeah, here we go.
SPEAKER_14James? Okay, we don't have a we don't have a tradition of finding the Bible funny, but it's interesting how the funny the Bible actually is when you when you get into it and you read it properly. So you could argue that lots of Shakespeare's comedies aren't funny, but actually they are funny, is that you've got to work a little bit to get into that mindset. Um and so, you know, Jesus Jesus is Jesus is funny, and also the one of the points of the book is he offended people, and actually he went out of his way to offend people. Oh, give us an example. Well, I mean, uh his stories made people incredibly angry, and all of his jokes were were many of them were made at the expense of the Pharisees who were actually very popular and and deemed to be good religious people and all those kinds of things. So he continually almost everything he says makes him furious, and even he heals people on the wrong day, you know, and he knows that he's gonna get into trouble for it. And they and they hate him so much that they kill him. I mean that's a tough crowd. I mean he he knew what he knew what he was.
SPEAKER_06Tough crowd. Yeah. You might think it's tough at the comedy store on a Friday night, but uh yeah, you ain't been to Golgotha. That was a tough crowd. So um uh for those of you who don't know, um James and I recorded a bunch of videos back at Easter because Easter was uh Easter actually fell on uh April Fool's Day. Uh April 1st was Easter Sunday this year. And so we we did a whole bunch about how uh the Bible is comedic and and Easter is the grand comedy. Um and so uh we'd love to show you a little clip from that, and hopefully it'll wet your appetite, and this could be something else that you watch between Christmas and New Year.
SPEAKER_14In in Palm Sunday. There's a guy on a donkey. Umkeys are inherently funny.
SPEAKER_06They are, yeah, yeah. You can make a real ass of yourself and all that.
SPEAKER_14Yeah.
SPEAKER_06So there is there is meant to be a king who is having his you know great procession, and it turns out to be a funeral procession. You know, it's meant to be on his way to a coronation, it ends up being on his way to an assassination, uh, he's meant to be on some stallion, uh, it ends up being on a donkey, or two donkeys. Yeah, you know, in in Matthew, Matthew remembers a second donkey um that was there, which is just I mean, that's funny.
SPEAKER_14Yeah, and also it's it's a young donkey. Yeah, so his feet are sort of dragging along the ground. Yeah, I mean, it's pretty undignified. Now, of course, the thing is, a theologian at this point will say, well, of course, we know exactly why Jesus is on a donkey. Zechariah 9. Zachariah 9.
SPEAKER_06Right.
SPEAKER_14Um what does Zachariah 9 say?
SPEAKER_06I mean, I'm sure you've you've got it off the top of your head, but uh see him come gentle and riding on a donkey on a colt to the fold of a donkey.
SPEAKER_14So it's easy to look at the fulfillment of scripture and explain the weird moment. Right. But then it's easy to look past it and just go, they think he's going they think that he's gonna be their king, he's riding into victory, the crowds are all there, and here he comes, and he is he on a is he on a donkey? Yeah, is he on is he on two donkeys? It's not donkey. What is going on? Yeah, with retaining your dignity. I don't think you can.
SPEAKER_06You don't. You know, he's on his way to a cross, which will be his throne. And how do you keep your dignity there? You don't. You don't. So um yeah, and again, it's that it's that whole from fullness pour pouring yourself out thing, isn't it? Yeah, you know, the the all these comedic moments are are actually uh yeah, uh about fullness being poured out. Or they're about the proud who puff themselves up and then pop, you know, or the you know, the proud person who s slips on the banana peel. Um you know, and down they come. And and of course we all laugh. We point and laugh.
SPEAKER_03He's right though, that it's easy to miss those things that we don't uh particularly when we're so familiar with the stories, uh we don't see the kind of comic aspect necessarily or uh you know the things he mentioned there about you know people going, Is he is he on a is he on a donkey? And like how do you ride two donkeys? That's been a source of much discussion in my house before. Like how do you ride two donkeys? Yeah, yeah. You know, like I I like to imagine it was like the people who ride the horses at the circus, you know, you know, where they stand with a foot on each one and then ride them like that. Um or do you sit side saddle on one with his feet on a lower one? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06You know? So um look out for James Carey's book where he will explain all of that and help you to read the Bible with new eyes and uh and hear the Bible with ears attuned to uh the comedy that's already there. So the Sacred Art of Joking is coming out, and maybe we'll talk to James Carey in the new year uh again uh when that book is just about to come out. So that was that was one thing that caught my eye just this morning. Um and then another thing, last night I listened in to Giles Fraser's new podcast on uh Unheard. Unheard is uh really interesting um website that um is seeking to do what we spoke about last week when we when we said, Can you imagine a newspaper in which it's not like wall-to-wall? Yeah, not all doom and gloom, and not wall-to-wall politics. Yeah. Like imagine one that took religion seriously and the arts and science and technology and and didn't think that the only things that are going on in the world are in Westminster. Umheard is kind of an attempt by Tim Montgomery and many others uh to to do that. And Giles Fraser, the Loose Canon, as um he's a canon of St. Paul's Cathedral, and uh he writes for The Guardian under the title The Loose Canon. Um Giles Fraser is always a stimulating thinker, and he's got this uh podcast interviewing some really interesting people. He had Jonathan Haidt on a couple of weeks ago, and uh he had Tom Holland on this week. And uh Tom Holland, uh an historian who has written a lot about Islam and the origins of Islam, he's written a lot about uh the Roman Empire and uh classical times and uh late antiquity. And uh but he's also he's also always kind of been thinking about the cross and been thinking about Christianity from a very early age. And actually he has some profound things to say about how absolutely culti-counter-cultural uh Christianity has always been, you know, just just landing in the ancient world like a like a an asteroid and totally changing the culture. So I just thought we could uh listen to uh one clip and then a second one, but the first one is about how Christianity and in particular the cross has absolutely changed the world.
SPEAKER_13Um both my mother and my godmother were very, you know, crucial influences on me. I loved them deeply. I I never had an issue with institutional religion, it was just that that I it kind of faded a bit. Um and I because of the dinosaurs, I'd always had a slight problem with with Adam and Eve. And I remember being in Church and kind of you know, whenever I was kind of feeling bored and looking skimming through the New Testament trying to find any references to centurions or to um the Horror of Babylon or you know anything that would devote Rome, just finding Rome kind of more glamorous, really. So I was always on the side of Pontius Pilate because you know he was a Roman procurator, what's what's not to like. But of course, now I I realize that the crucifixion is the most the cross, what it represents, is the most astonishing symbol that humanity's ever really had. And the fact that it's become the most probably the most single, most recognizable cultural symbol in human history is staggering because it is an emblem of torture and death and suffering. And I think that um we in the West are so desensitized to it that we've lost the sense that this was an emblem of Roman power and the power that any governor had to impose death on those who stood up to Rome, and that power was the power to burn, to throw to the beasts, or to crucify. And what happened with the crucifixion is that people discovered that weakness could become a source of strength, and it was an epical discovery, and it it it changed the world. And the world that we live in, in that sense, is a deeply Christian one now, even so I don't need to tell you as a um a man of the cloth yourself.
SPEAKER_06Astonishing, really. Yeah. And uh I I love that quote. He says, uh the the cross is the most astonishing symbol humanity has ever had. You know, this again, because we are all naturally theologians of glory, and we are all naturally empty trying to fill ourselves up. And the cross is about this God who pours himself out with every drop of his blood. Just and and he as a as an historian, he notes the way that this um symbol and this teaching, this theology has uh upended the world. Um, and it's the most significant thing that's ever happened on planet Earth. It's quite quite the quite the claim, but I but I think, you know, it's it's interesting that that from a secular historian's kind of point of view, it kind of seems to him to be undeniable. So that's kind of the the impact that the cross has on culture and has had on on our civilization. And and Tom Holland would say not just on Western civilization, but but through the West now. You know, the whole world is different because of the one who was crucified. Um so just just a stunning thing to say. And then Giles Fraser does a good job at the end of of trying to get personal with um Tom Holland and asking, well, what does this personally mean for you? Let's have a listen to that. Second one, yeah?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_13Whether anything is going to happen. I see. Um and the s I suppose the state of play is is is that um I f I I feel the pity and the power of of the the Christian myth in a non-intellectual way. So I you said I applied in an intellectual way. I I feel it it it it touches me viscerally. It emotionally, viscerally touches me. And there are times where I feel um you know, this this this could be belief that the flame of belief is guttering back into existence. And I feel excited I you know, I would love that to happen. And there are times where I genuinely feel it. And then it kind of, you know, I think about the Mesozoic or something. And and and it gets blown out again.
SPEAKER_06Very interesting. Yeah, the flame of faith is uh yeah, splattering back to life, perhaps for Tom Holland. Going going to church, and yeah.
SPEAKER_03It was it Tom Holland it wasn't long ago, was it, that there was a a piece by him where he he realized he was saying how he came to realise how deeply influenced the world had been by Christianity. So he's kind of been on this journey, hasn't he? Or seemingly still on this journey. Yes. Um maybe near to the kingdom.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, well Yeah, so he goes to church and he he has a joke in the in the podcast about sort of kneeling down to pray and and uh and Jarsa says, What do you expect to to find? He says, I don't know, I'll find out. You know, it's sort of let's see, let's try this thing out. So um yeah, very um very exciting, very exciting. Um and again, you know, what what draws all these threads together from today, as far as I'm concerned, is is this idea of the cross, um, this idea of a theology of the cross, the theology of a God who pours himself out. Um it transforms the world, it transforms our stories, it transforms our hearts. And uh and this is this is what we get to preach at Christmas. Even if even if you don't mention Golgotha, um you can still preach in a way that is um according to a theology of the cross. That the little Lord Jesus is the one who would pour himself out to be near to you and to draw you home. That's what Christmas is all about. So that'll do it. That'll do it. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Well, we hope you guys have uh a great Christmas. And um yeah, we we hope that you guys know the beauty of Emmanuel, uh the God who is with us, the God who d moved heaven to earth to be with us, and will one day move heaven to earth forever to be with us.
SPEAKER_03It makes a song want to come out with me.
SPEAKER_06Really?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I I think we've probably got a song we could um really could end on.
SPEAKER_06Is it a culturally appropriate song? Is it is it engaging with what's popular out there in the world? Oh, absolutely. But in a way that's modelled by the incarnation and undoubtedly.
SPEAKER_02Undoubted, undoubtedly, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06Well, while you chew that up, why don't we uh give everybody uh uh happy Christmas and Merry Christmas and hold on?
SPEAKER_03Enjoy. Goodbye.
SPEAKER_08Bye just to do, baby Jesus, did it to do, baby Jesus, to do it to do, baby Jesus.
unknownWhat do you do?
SPEAKER_08What do you want to do? What do you want? What do you want? What do you want?